DUNE vs. LOTR | Comparing and Contrasting w/

In episode 258 of the Parker's Pensées Podcast, I'm joined by Jess of the Shire to compare and contrast Arrakis and Middle-earth, Frank Herbert and J.R.R. Tolkien. We had a lot of fun covering everything from dragons to sandworms, to personality quirks of Herbert and Tolkien.
Check out Jess's fantastic channel here: / @jess_of_the_shire
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0:00 - Jess the Face-Essayist Cosplayer
13:24 - Jess's favorite LOTR character
15:54 - Technology in LOTR and Dune
23:50 - Frank Herbert the Philosopher
26:02 - Would Tolkien and Herbert have been friends?
32:44 - Is Paul Atreides the baddie?
34:33 - Why Did Tolkien Dislike Dune?
44:36 - Dragons or Sand Worms?
56:50 - Tolkien's Eucatastrophe vs. Herbert's Recurrent Shape
1:01:42 - What about Space Wizards?
1:06:37 - Jess's script writing and video production process

The research for my podcast episodes is intense. If you enjoy my high effort philosophy and theology podcast episodes, consider supporting me on Patreon: www.patreon.com/parkers_pensees

[@DanSme1]

“intense”? How so? “high effort” Again, explain. I do appreciate what you’ve accomplished, but it seems like you’re having too much fun to classify the effort as “toil.” 🤣

[@JW_______]

​@@DanSme1I think it's because a great deal of time, reading and study goes into being able speak on philosophical and theological topics in an organized and intelligent way and to be able to substantivley interview some of the brightest minds on their written work. There's a good reason why these subjects are called specializations.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thanks so much for having me on the podcast! It was a ton of fun

🙌🙌🪱🏜🌋🐉 Can't wait to run it back!

@@sebastianevangelista4921 🙌🙌

[@davidalan528]

Re: power corrupting versus ‘it’s the corrupt who seek power,’ I’m from the Adams school. “Those who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it…on no account should anyone capable of getting themselves made President be allowed to do the job.” Power does corrupt, but it also attracts the corrupt. So your ideal leader is the reluctant one. Paul starts that way. Ender Wiggin starts that way. But both ultimately do get wrapped up in the system built around the rule into which they stepped. And the system, mind, always outlasts any one ruler. (Even the one who overthrows the system - because whatever change they bring, their immediate successors will without fail revise.)

I think this is spot on

[@stephenferguson9756]

A good example of this is the Pharaoh Akhenaten and his religious reforms.

[@Balcamion79]

This is a really fun conversation! I found Jess through a cloak making video, and I've appreciated the theological and philosophical content of this channel.

That's awesome! She's so talented

[@Chris_Traylor]

Ruocchio and Jess of the Shire in the same week! Keep it up man, I love your conversations. God speed

Thank you!! I get to talk with some of the coolest people out there. Glad to have you here man🫡

[@ZephyrOptional]

Highly recommend Jess’s vid on Tom Bombadil. She’s a great scholar!

Totally! I ran outta time to ask her about Tom and her work on him. Looks like she's gotta come back

[@CoranceLChandler]

This was positively fantastic, it is not often we are treated to the philosophical and practical implications of literature. I feel that the best authors often have a profound insight into ideas and human nature and are able to embody them into a believable, historical, sociological framework. It's hard for me to say for sure but I may have learned as much or more about life from reading good fiction as I have through any other means.

I always look forward to your comments!! Some of the best encouragement I get. Thank you 🙌

[@CoranceLChandler]

@ 😎👍🏾and thank you!

[@boris_bulletdodger9109]

Positive comment

🙌 Best one yet

[@Nineteen1900Hundred]

An interesting comparison would be Game Of Thrones, and maybe Star Wars, both Georges stole a lot!

Dang, great point!!

[@chocolatemonk]

thank you, great coversation

🤝🤝🤝

[@iWizard]

Hey, man. Just coming across your channel now. Subbed! My friend Christopher Ruocchio was just telling me he went on your channel and his Discord group has recommended that we collab at some point. We have a similar background---philosophy, fantasy, SF, classics, etc. Just wanted to say hi and that I'm glad I've found your channel. :) Cheers!

Bro we're either going to love or hate eachother lol I hope it's love! Shoot me and email at parkerspensees[at]gmail[dot]com (hopefully that saves me from the bots)

[@iWizard]

@ From what I hear, it's going to be love, haha. We'll see. I'll shoot you an email.

@@iWizard 🙌🙌

[@billyalarie929]

God your guests are nothing but bangers. Jess is AMAZING.

🙌🙌 I love my guests, so glad to share them with you too. So glad to get to know Jess. Can't wait to get her back on again

[@adriang.fuentes7649]

Loved it! You are the man! I am now a Jess subscriber.

She's the best! 🙌

[@Marqui91]

If Paul was a warning to people to be wary of the institutions people create and to be cautious of people in power, then what the heck is leto II meant to represent or warn against? Stagnation? Is he also a warning to watch against people in power?

He's a warning not to play with sand trout

[@sayerslayer1854]

Subscribed for the mustache

🙌🤝

[@NR-rv8rz]

The link to Jess's video channel doesn't work.

Thanks, I fixed it but you can also click her link in the title too

[@Friday.S]

I think that the believer antitheist kind of covertly exists in the form of people that stay in their religion not because they think that it is good but instead because they are afraid of going to hell. (Of course most such people will probably never admit that they wish that their god didn't exist - that would be blasphemy after all - but that's why I called them _covert_ believer antitheists)

[@kevinh2345]

Herbert's use of sandworms is not necessarily subversive, its how eastern cultures have used dragon imagery forever. Addtionally Tolkien seems to be the last story teller who understood the concept of authority. You know, a legitimate form of power in it's rightful place. However the post-hegelian real politik types see power as only capable of abuse. Tolkein believes that there is a place for people to be powerful without being tyrants inherently.

Another insightful take! Thank you!!

[@godkingcthulhu138]

🦑

🫡🫡🫡

[@godkingcthulhu138]

@ i love solar punk too

[@acuerdox]

dragons are not animals

What are they?

[@acuerdox]

they're an archetype, archetypes are akin to titles, you can call someone a boss but there's no species of bosses, or a boss reproductive ritual. In this case they're the monster of chaos, that's why their bodies are made up of parts from different animals, body of a snake, wings of a bird, head of a lion, back-feet of a bird. Nowadays people don't draw dragons like that, because they're thinking that dragons are darwinian evolved animals , but that stuff has nothing to do with the things from myth, look up old drawings of dragons and you'll find them in all kinds of shapes. For a good example, look at Elron and Elros, they're the kids of an elf and a human, did they mix the elf-DNA and human-DNA and come out half-elves? no, of course not, there's no elf-DNA, they just were given the choice by the Valar to choose who's fate would they share, and Elron made the choice to be an elf and just like that *pop* he became an elf.

[@IdolKiller]

I definitely prefer Dune over LotR, as I generally prefer scifi over fantasy.

Such a tough call on these two, but generally speaking I'm 100% with you. SF is king.

[@jeffp1370]

Same here !

[@DanSme1]

She shows her face because she’s attractive…Duh!

[@sayerslayer1854]

I feel like most youtube video makers who put themselves in the video do so out of a narcissistic tendency. Not the personality disorder but the pride and validation one gets from others finding them beautiful or attractive. Its not a bad thing per se, but often can be. If it gets you more subscribers it is just taking advantage of the way momma nature made you

Idk, there are a lot of homely KZbinrs showing our faces out here 😅

[@johnrussell-bk7lv]

This is fun stuff to think about, but if I'm being totally honest I don't really see the point. The books couldn't be more different in terms of how they're written and what their authors were trying to convey. It's a little bit apples and oranges. J.R.R. Tolkein in fact hated reading Dune and refused to write a review on it because he didn't want to damage a fellow author's reputation.

The point is that it's fun to think about lol you just answered it. And yeah Jess and I talked about Tolkien's disdain for Dune in this episode

[@johnrussell-bk7lv]

@ Oop! You caught me having not watched it. That's embarassing 😂. I get it though. Carl Jung would approve. Collective unconscious and all that. I'll make it up to you by actually watching the video.

@@johnrussell-bk7lv 😆 your honesty had made up for it already 👏🤝

[@lordcyberlafont]

Tolkien would have said : Trump 2024

[@raskolnikov6443]

No doubt

[@bluebitproductions2836]

Absolutely not. Trump didn’t like America, first of all. More importantly, he would have hated the fact that Trump is not a humble man by any means.

[@ZephyrOptional]

Tolkien was a self described anarchist (look it up) and believe he would have been disgusted and disturbed with both trump & Biden and their ilk.