eBox-TCP-02 EPEver Charge Controller Ethernet Adapter - 12v Solar Shed

  Рет қаралды 30,599

Adam Welch

Adam Welch

6 жыл бұрын

The EPEver eBox-TCP-02 isn’t mentioned on the EPSolar website, but that hasn’t stopped many eBay sellers stocking the product. It’s a Ethernet adapter for your solar charge controller, supporting the Tracer A, Tracer AN, TriRon, LandStar and numerous other models too.
Items used in this video:
❗️These links are affiliated and I may earn a small commission if you purchase❗️
eBox-TCP-02: ebay.to/2MelCVK
eBox-WiFi-01: ebay.to/2MhWq0I
Tracer A MPPT Solar Charge Controller: ebay.to/2MjHVth
USB Cable: ebay.to/2KgNeJi
The Virtual Comm Port Software from USR IOT: admw.uk/kt

Пікірлер: 102
@tstet20
@tstet20 4 жыл бұрын
I followed your instructions and ran it through a wifi extender. It works great. Thanks for this video.
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 4 жыл бұрын
Good to hear. Yuans for letting me know.
@BobSmith42
@BobSmith42 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for getting through that. It's nice to have some kind of monitoring, even if it's not great yet.
@fourzerofour7860
@fourzerofour7860 6 жыл бұрын
Thank you for testing this! As usual, it'll be super useful to me. Still hoping someone is gonna make a nice "live monitor" software for the EPever controllers for Android. Fingers crossed that since now it can connect to a normal network via Ethernet, development of such a thing can happen.
@michaelbouckley4455
@michaelbouckley4455 2 жыл бұрын
Epever+ App connects via Bluetooth or WiFi adaptors. For monitoring is good. Can’t change settings, except date, which is easy, uses phone time.
@frostspring
@frostspring 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks to your video, I managed to control my Epever Tracer locally. Have you tried to read from a remote location through internet? Is USR-VPORT (virtual ports) able to operate outside local network, through internet? Remote IP, Port forwarding, etc...
@bherms3
@bherms3 5 жыл бұрын
this is great, thanks Adam. I just yesterday ordered the 20A and this device, before seeing this review ... am new to this stuff (well, old, but new to this level of detail). No way I would have figured all that out on my own, and you do great at clearing (hopefully) roadblocks for the novice. I want to be able to turn a wildlife camera off remotely ... from a solar powered site accessed with a ubiquiti airmax device, and a router. Still not sure I have all the necessary pieces, but a fun adventure nonetheless. At the least I can turn everything off it seems. cheers.your
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 5 жыл бұрын
Sounds like a nice project. I use some AirMax kit at work and I think it sounds like you’ve got everything you need. Good luck!
@5j5estes
@5j5estes 3 жыл бұрын
Great idears
@lukejay
@lukejay 2 жыл бұрын
look into LoraWAN for low power comms. you could use it to put the whole system into sleep and wake it up remotely.
@AndreasKoepkeAU
@AndreasKoepkeAU 6 жыл бұрын
Wow, you certainly needed some perseverance to get this working. Having a fixed IP out of the box is just awful. Well done!
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
And there was me worrying that I’d made it too straight forward in the end! Finished the software and it’s handy auto setup mode was the key. Cheers
@paulandrues4100
@paulandrues4100 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the help ...
@phildxyz
@phildxyz 6 жыл бұрын
All guitar effects pedals (in my experience) are centre negative, but they do tend to be marked correctly on the box!
@CATips
@CATips 4 жыл бұрын
Epever Solar charge controller can we access remote operation . Example my plant in UK but im living OMAN can i able to monitor via internet?
@DaNiePred
@DaNiePred 5 жыл бұрын
I like the extra power connection, cause I'd use it in my trailer and could turn it off during winter days, when the solar panel is just there to keep the battery charged and could turn it on, when I am traveling... Do you have any idea, how much power it consumes in reality?
@RaymondDay
@RaymondDay 5 жыл бұрын
Nice video showing this. Can you go to the IP on another PC so 2 can talk to it at the same time?
@raminigvaladze6112
@raminigvaladze6112 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for Great video, you advice was very helpful, I installed it but can't manage to monitor my solar panel remotely yet :)
@tylernimeh9511
@tylernimeh9511 4 жыл бұрын
same
@trickyriky1
@trickyriky1 6 жыл бұрын
They are finally moving in the right direction, but Tricky couldn't wait for them to sort their acts out so i have built my own solar monitor using an arduino, an ADC, 2 resistors for voltage divider, a capacitor across the 5v + ground rails, and 2x 50Amp 75Mv shunts, and its pretty accurate and a fraction of the cost of retail standard. Uw if you look at my latest 2-3 videos you will see how to build up that PCB i sent you all those months ago. Loving these arduino's and once i have enough KWH my dischargers are going to be converted into 1s20p BMS's ;)
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
Sounds great. I must catch up on your videos. Your board is still safe (thanks again) and one day when I get a bit of time I’ll look at it again. Cheers Tricky
@trickyriky1
@trickyriky1 6 жыл бұрын
No worries mate, my videos are nowhere near as informative as yours, but they serve a purpose. I have a few videos i want to make but i think i need to sit down with somebody doing video editing for an hour or 3 before i go trying to make the ones i have in mind. Like how to flash the firmware in your clone imax B6, and how to build your own solar power monitor. They are just a couple of my recent undertakings that i struggled to find info on, so worthy of sharing.
@tonywright6793
@tonywright6793 5 жыл бұрын
Hi Adam I am on the point of buying an EPever MPPT controller but I must have monitoring over the internet and although I have a borderline understanding of network issues, I can usually get there in the end especially with great guidance like yours. If I follow your instructions will I be able to connect this device to my router and get remote internet access from a phone or PC to the EPever? Are there any other devices I should consider that might be better/easier? Is the EPEve eBox-WIFI-01 which you tested and then it was altered by EPever, still a no-go for what I want to do? Thanks Tony
@ewartbain5463
@ewartbain5463 3 жыл бұрын
Hello Adam, Have you tried out the PT-ADP-PORT or newer PAL-ADP-50AN form Epever? I have a Tracer 5415AN and a much older 4210A working in parallel and would like to know if any of them will work well with these 2 charge controllers. Right now, only the 5415 switches to float load while the 4210 remains in boost mode, but would like both to be in float when the battery bank is fully charged thus my reason for asking. Hope you can help. Thanks much.
@Fran9ck
@Fran9ck 4 жыл бұрын
Adam, thanks for all your videos on both the Epever solar controllers and batteries in general. Regarding the rs485 port from the epever to the mt-50, epever elog01, or even the pc software. Is there anyway to use a power line connection with netgear bridge xe102 devices instead of the faulty wifi / bluetooth devices. What about with the evox-tcp-01 or 02 device? Thanks in advance for your time and support....
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 4 жыл бұрын
Hello. You couldn’t plug the charge controller straight into a power line adapter, you would need to use a ebox-tcp to convert from the charge controllers RS485 protocol to TCP/IP for the power line. Then at the other end you will need to read that information via a virtual comm port and the EPEver software. I hope that helps. Cheers
@jeffclarke7990
@jeffclarke7990 5 жыл бұрын
Hi Adam, I left a comment on your "eLog01" video several minutes ago. Have you tested the "eBox-TCP-02 EPEver Ethernet Adapter" daisy chained off the eLog01 logger ? Hoping to install both for a remote connectiivty solution using IP, similar to the testing you did with the "eBox-WIFI-01" in a daisy chain configuration. Jeff
@miguelhurtado3873
@miguelhurtado3873 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Adam, have you take a look to this new Epever device? Patric's video connect to Epever cloud. I create an account to the cloud but could not try because I don't have that divice to test
@richardsmall80
@richardsmall80 5 жыл бұрын
One thing to note from this is that you need to set the TCP-02 to be the client rather than the server. And set your computer to be the server in the VCOM software. Otherwise you get com port timeout errors in the Epever software. I set up as per this video and it caused timeout errors. So asked Epever themselves and they sent across some useful instruction documents. There is also some windows software to configure the box rather than having to use the GUI.
@alessandromontagner7018
@alessandromontagner7018 Жыл бұрын
Caio mi potresti dare il link dove scaricare i documenti che ti hanno inviato ?? grazie Alessandro
@lexpee
@lexpee 4 жыл бұрын
I have a question, is it possible with the eBox-TCP-02 EPE to share charging information on the internet without access to the controller settings.
@joao_aeromodelimo2841
@joao_aeromodelimo2841 3 жыл бұрын
Olá da para controlar remotamente estando em outra rede?, parabéns pelo tutorial, abraço.
@jhaguilarvao
@jhaguilarvao 3 жыл бұрын
Hello, could you share the pinout of the RS485 - RJ45 cable.
@gopikrishnayogarajah
@gopikrishnayogarajah 4 жыл бұрын
Hi Adam , Nice work . Have you ever tried connecting this eBox and MT50 display at the same time the epever charge controller . ie., do they work together on the same RS485 line coming from the charge controller ?
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 4 жыл бұрын
Yeah they are designed to work together. So you can change settings and view live data on the MT50 and save longer term data on the elog.
@Chickey
@Chickey 6 жыл бұрын
Great video as ever, i wonder if the virtual com port software would also work with the diy rs485 to wifi adaptor. I might have to give it a try.
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
It does yes - I’ve used it before. I think it may also make the other Wifi adapters I bought work correctly - they are also made by USR IOT. They all have the same issue though... none of them can be powered directly from the charge controller like yours though which makes for a much more straight forward setup.
@alexandreesquenet3736
@alexandreesquenet3736 6 жыл бұрын
Simpler to connect charger to a pc with usb to rs485.
@Tad3j
@Tad3j 5 жыл бұрын
What abour RS232, would work with RS485 version ??
@TheEdmanDK
@TheEdmanDK 5 жыл бұрын
What about this one ? RS485 WiFi Converter USR-WIFI232-604-V2 . Will that one work too ?
@michaelfahmie5343
@michaelfahmie5343 2 жыл бұрын
Adam, I was able to obtain a TCP-02 via EBAY but it came without the 'Instruction Sheet' and the cable. I see that the cable carries RS-485A & B signals. Are those 2 single ended signals or 1 differential pair? I ask this because the charge controller outputs two A signals and two B signals which implies differential but it also doubles up power and ground so I'm not sure whether I should be confused or not! The EPEVER Charge Controller appears to provide 7.5 VDC via the RS-485 cable, I wonder if that satisfies the TCP-02 power requirement?
@michaelstanbrook6565
@michaelstanbrook6565 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Adam, can I access my EpEver TRACER 4210AN MPPT controller using the eBox-TCP-02 via the internet anywhere or only on the LAN? I'd like to record a history of the statistics using my 24/7 VPS if I can, is that possible to do with the TCP-02? Mike
@SuperBrainAK
@SuperBrainAK 6 жыл бұрын
thanks for the guide, I will probably get an epever with this module, are there any good modules that do the same thing for cheaper? seems like a simple universal thing that anyone can make.
@jtclendenin
@jtclendenin 5 жыл бұрын
Is there a way to factory default or reset the ethernet adapter?
@electronic7979
@electronic7979 6 жыл бұрын
Excellent
@trevorsangster5175
@trevorsangster5175 5 жыл бұрын
Is this real modbus tcp or rtu over tcp? Either way is fine , I would just like to know if you would have to buy one for every controller or one would work for many , cause I’m running 3 through one rs485 converter in to openHAB and it goes into a beagle bone black which uses Ser2net , then goes to openHAB service using socats and this would help get rid of a few things. I tried 2 of the wifi adapters but they are very unreliable
@toysareforboys1
@toysareforboys1 6 жыл бұрын
1:43 Can someone give me a link or let me know the model number of an EPSolar MPPT charger that works with a 48v battery pack? Thanks!
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
Yes I can help... There are two models which can do 48 volts - the iTracer... ebay.to/2Mw1gaO and the eTracer... ebay.to/2tMJjwK Both are available in 45 or 60 amp models, and I believe common negative or common positive too. I haven't tried either, but they are both compatible with a number of the accessories which I've looked at on the channel.
@yemeful
@yemeful Жыл бұрын
How did you find the static IP of the eBox?
@mph-in-ca
@mph-in-ca 6 жыл бұрын
I'm wondering about the barrel connector. Is it possible that it is set for an AN model vs the A you are using. The common polarity is reverses.
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
No the power for the ebox-tcp is external and doesn't need to come from any solar charge controller whether common pos or common neg. The print designer just got it wrong! The other connector is indicated correctly.
@JuhaJutila
@JuhaJutila 6 жыл бұрын
Wi-Fi converter has to be inside plastic case or they have to use external antenna.
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
What an excellent point! Cheers
@pankritikos4922
@pankritikos4922 3 жыл бұрын
Hello! I got the same product, I watched your video, but I can not download anything from this site. It constantly sends me error messages. Can you help me? Thanks Pan
@RWBHere
@RWBHere 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the heads-up, Adam. It seems to have some hallmarks of it being a knock-off, latching on to the better-know company's name. Alarm bells rang when you said that it wasn't listed on the genuine website. Then 'no instructions' sounded a klaxon. Finall, the incorrect supply socket labelling started a tsunami alert! At least it does work. It would be interesting to check whether or not it can handle the supply input range which is claimed. Big Clive would be VERY happy if the result was a bright flash, a crack and the simultaneous release of WhiteSmoke™. You might not be whelmed by the experience.
@Cyberflow
@Cyberflow 5 жыл бұрын
wouldn't it be possible to use the wifi client function on an accesspoint to connect to the wifi module and then use some routing magic to get it accessible from your regular network?
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 5 жыл бұрын
Yes potentially, depends on your other equipment.
@djboxnyful
@djboxnyful 4 жыл бұрын
I bought the USR-tcp232-304 and i a having a hard time making it work, i got it to work 10 percent of the time. can you please make a video with that model please. i know it is similar to the ebox you used.
@jhaguilarvao
@jhaguilarvao 3 жыл бұрын
Hola Richard, pudiste hacer funcionar el USR-TCP con el controlador solar ?
@mattmorris9367
@mattmorris9367 5 жыл бұрын
How many watts did it use?
@jrwjryan
@jrwjryan 6 жыл бұрын
hi Adam, do you know if the eBox-02 is routeable over the internet? this would be handy for monitoring a remote solar site.
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
Yes it is, but it will require you to forward ports on your router. There are guides available for most routers if you give it a google.
@martincheytani9762
@martincheytani9762 5 жыл бұрын
Has anyone figured out what ports you would need to forward too? I can remotely access the USR main GUI by remotely port forwarding to 192.168.0.7. But can't figure out what port I need to forward to get to the serial port. Any ideas?
@michaelb2388
@michaelb2388 Жыл бұрын
Connect to your computer with a cable? Can someone remind me what decade we're in?
@jamhough22
@jamhough22 6 жыл бұрын
Is there a way to connect this and the display at the same time??
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
The MT50? No sadly not on the tracers. You could add this to the triron and add the top level screen to that to get the best of both worlds if you really wanted to.
@pcmalek5
@pcmalek5 6 жыл бұрын
hi Adam i have a solar system with 24v 250Ah gel battery and 300w solar panel so my problem is the earthing rod, can i use my house's rod ? because neer my solar system i have an outlet with the earting cable so why not use that one
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
Earth is earth, so using the nearest point to hand is better than no connection I guess.
@pcmalek5
@pcmalek5 6 жыл бұрын
thank you
@pcmalek5
@pcmalek5 6 жыл бұрын
thank you Adem but the thing that worries me is if a machine plugged into the house is damaged it could affect or damage the solar system (inverter, charge controller)
@heliantoelias4288
@heliantoelias4288 4 жыл бұрын
Hi Adam ,, how to set this e-box TCP-02 to default address 192.168.0.7 since after reset I lost the default address
@djpalozo
@djpalozo 3 жыл бұрын
Bom dia Como faço para resetar, esqueci a senha admin
@johanvanwalleghem2605
@johanvanwalleghem2605 5 жыл бұрын
I have 4 epever Etracer ET6415 . I trying to control them with a USRIOT N-540. It is similar to the eBox but with 4 RS485 inputs. Cannot make it working. When I assign a virtual COM-port to the N-540 the Ethernet communication shut down and I have to reset the device. (Start again changing IP address from the device .....) The problem is that there is no info about this connection. On the old Etracers there was a RJ-45 output to connenct directly to PC. Don't know why they stopped this option. Maybe someone can help me. Thanks
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 5 жыл бұрын
Have you been in touch with USRiot? It sounds like it is a problem with that device to me.
@johanvanwalleghem2605
@johanvanwalleghem2605 5 жыл бұрын
@@AdamWelchUK Yes with Ms.Freda Cui. The problem is that I am not so familial with those thinks. Am I right when I assign a virtual comport to the N-540? If this is correct I wil ask to replace the device. Thanks for helping
@johanvanwalleghem2605
@johanvanwalleghem2605 3 жыл бұрын
@@AdamWelchUK Finally i was able to install the USRIOT N-540 and everything is working fine and I have access from local ethernet to the 4 inverters. Now i bought 3 hybrid inverters MUST PH1800 with RS 485 communication. The MUST support dont help me with my problem. There is a RJ45 connector. Pin 1 and 2 are the RS485B an A. Is there a possibility to check this signal? After i like to use the ZLAN 5443TD. This supports P2P. There is a long way to go before it works
4 жыл бұрын
Fixed IP is usable, when you have no router and You want to connect this device directly to PC.
@BhooralShah
@BhooralShah 5 жыл бұрын
Hi Adam It work on iOS epever ap or not?
@michaelbouckley4455
@michaelbouckley4455 2 жыл бұрын
Maybe, if you have apples Ethernet cable to USB adaptor (for MACs), and the powered version of USB camera adaptor to lightning (or any powered USB hub) there is also a newer Ethernet to USBC cable. I like the lightning version, but my battery learned not to charge much on it. As far as the App’s go, it may depend on the SCC model. Epever did update to connect to Imax AN series. On mine the EP-01 App seems to connect, but does not work at all. Epsolar+ App monitors ok, but cannot change any settings (except time) via ebox BLE.
@offgridsolaruk843
@offgridsolaruk843 5 жыл бұрын
Disappointed you can't program the Tracers manually via the unit itself, I have just installed a 200v 60amp version, excellent in every way except I now have to wait for the cable to come from China to be able to program it for Lithium via the laptop, not seen it programmed via an MT50 as yet but will have a look. The new series chargers are looking really good though I do rate the MPP Solar PCM60X to.
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 5 жыл бұрын
It is a bit of a shame but the cable is very cheap (and you can make your own for $1). Originally of cause everyone just had lead acid and the three on screen options was plenty for everyone!
@offgridsolaruk843
@offgridsolaruk843 5 жыл бұрын
@@AdamWelchUK Yes very true, many of the new products coming from China now have LiPo, Li-ion settings now, I have just taken the delivery of my new inverter which has all the settings programmed as per my instructions. Seen your video on the lead but for £3 I just ordered one! Keep up the good videos!
@michaelbouckley4455
@michaelbouckley4455 2 жыл бұрын
Epever documentation is contradictory on MT50. There are no default Lithium profiles, but MT50 can program user settings, and there are voltage levels for Lifepo4 in the manual. (They recommend using Equalise at same voltage as Boost). Bluetooth module can monitor Imax SCC’s via Epever+ App, and set time, but not any settings. EP-01 App not work. I find the displayed Amps out to be over optimistic, and therefore the KWh also. I get somewhere between panel Amps and battery Amps on Tracer 6415AN, as monitored by Smart BMS.
@corpezentis7889
@corpezentis7889 Жыл бұрын
IP of acces?
@jmpcrx
@jmpcrx Жыл бұрын
Hi, i dont suppose you would be interested in selling me one of your old wifi ebox 01 boxes? Bought a newer one today not realising.. Would be using it to connect a upower hi inverter to home assistant... 😁
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK Жыл бұрын
If I were you I'd look at this... www.tindie.com/products/plop211/epever-rs485-to-wifi-adaptor-v16/ These are the latest version of the one I use to use to connect my tracer charge controllers with home assistant.
@jmpcrx
@jmpcrx Жыл бұрын
@@AdamWelchUK thanks, i did see those, but have ordered a wifi-ebox-01 that i found anyway (probably the newer version), as i see that there is now a workaround to put it into sta mode. (its for a upower hi 3000 inv. To send to RPI running home assistant.). Assuming i can manage to figure out all the github stuff lol.
@thelwq
@thelwq 6 жыл бұрын
I would rather desolder that mad power jack connector, its odd wiring will cause problems. And anyway - fixed IP and even that wifi unt problem is quite easy to solve and get workng properly 😎 if you are interested, let me know...
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
The ebox-tcp just needs a sticker over the print because actually it is centre positive (found this out further along in the video). The issue with the ebox-wifi is avoidable (posting via http an option that is hidden right?), but epever claim it isn't very stable in client mode - they told me that is why they removed the functionality. The fixed IP isn't a major issue, if you know how to find out what it has been set to. It's more the issue that epever don't document that IP any where or warn you that it is fixed and could clash, or even give you an idea about what range it is in! Thanks for your comments.
@thelwq
@thelwq 6 жыл бұрын
Adam Welch - you are right. I watched the rest of this video :-) anyway - wifi ep device can be access point and you can connect any kind of wifi client like tplink wr840 to set it as "media-convertor" to ethernet...
@johnturner9561
@johnturner9561 6 жыл бұрын
Adam I know how you a always looking for cheap solar controllers check out the GreeSonic Authentic MPPT Solar Charge Controller 15A it looks to be the real deal, later
@SadraqueBa
@SadraqueBa 4 жыл бұрын
how to return the device to factory mode?
@blee0518
@blee0518 4 жыл бұрын
DHCP on this device is not best practice. It will change when your router flushes arp table. Second, the static ip by default is best practice because configuring should be done with computer before deployment.
@blenderNOOb69
@blenderNOOb69 6 жыл бұрын
Always blackout the MAC-address
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
Why so? It's not route-able.
@blenderNOOb69
@blenderNOOb69 6 жыл бұрын
if the device is on and someone is in nearby your WIFI he/she can access to your device (brute force....)
@dejayrezme8617
@dejayrezme8617 6 жыл бұрын
Haha "IOT experts" stands for internet of things, not exactly a company name ;) I would have hoped that all the configurations could have been done directly in the web interface, without a special windows software. Like this it doesn't really seem to have any advantage to a serial connection. Great video, thanks!
@RWBHere
@RWBHere 5 жыл бұрын
We're guessing that 'USR' is 'user', in the UNIX sense, and 'IOT' is 'Internet Of Things', so the website is not US RIOT, as Adam thought.
@RWBHere
@RWBHere 6 жыл бұрын
Seriously, does anyone still use 10 mbps, or even 100 mbps? And from your comments about COM ports, this unit sounds to be Windows-only; no good for the millions of people who don't run Microsoft software. I do ageee with you about IP addresses; DHCP is pretty much de riguer these days. Our networks are on two different subnets, for instance, and both are gigabit. Thanks Adam.
@AdamWelchUK
@AdamWelchUK 6 жыл бұрын
Gigabit is standard generally yes, but this device doesn’t transmit anywhere near those speeds so any additional cost is simply not worth it. The rs485 standard is open, and you can find mod bus registers online for the charge controllers, so although epever software is windows only (or android kind of) you can integrate the charge controller stats into other systems. Grafana for example with a virtual comm port package like socat works well.
@RWBHere
@RWBHere 6 жыл бұрын
You're right; Gigabit will cost a few extra RMB to implement, and many China Export™ items are made with extreme parsimony in the mind of the manufacturer. As for Windows, many manufacturers still forget about other common operating systems. Fighting for the underdog, as I'm doing here, can be an uphill struggle sometimes! ;-)
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