What is Gold-Pressed Latinum worth?

[@edthejester]

The value of Latinum is equivalent to the warp speed scale. It varies per episode and is meant to be understood as "a lot" or "pitiful" by context

[@MrGollum1996]

Or like teraquot of data

[@Chud_Bud_Supreme]

It seems like Quark is either rolling in money or on the verge of bankruptcy depending on the episode

[@katyushamarikov8819]

@@Chud_Bud_Supreme Because he is.

[@echoplots8058]

Just to keep my suspension of disbelief alive I would assume that Quark's bar is a fixed asset and selling it wouldn't make sense for him for various reasons, so there's that. Regarding his earnings, they probably fluctuate, and I think ferengi have different standards when it comes to money. What we call broke they would call "less wealthy". Once you make a loss, your social standing drops immediately. He's propbably not broke, he's just whining.

[@Chud_Bud_Supreme]

@@dixonhill1108 Yeah, true. Reminds me of Game Dev Tycoon, where one moment you're flush with cash cause your latest game sold gangbusters; then the next, you're in the red from all your recent investments and praying your latest game will at least get you back in the black

[@CapnSlipp]

IRL, restaurants in prime locations are often worth a million or more. There’s a lot of investment tied up with rental agreements, equipment, furnishing, and inventory. It’s not like Quark’s bar is a tiny store in a strip mall in a rundown neighborhood- it’s a large, popular location on a busy space station, with little to no competition for a good period of DS9’s run. $10 million USD sounds about right to me.

[@awesward4454]

Dude, their are restaurants that the LAND is worth millions, before they even build, its totally not unrealistic.

[@decimation9780]

Considering the size of DS9, I’m going to say that the station alone cost upwards of $350 billion to build, if we use the American dollar, considering the fact that it was created by the Cardassian's, and likely is made out of a different metal than steel. Speaking of which, it’s primarily made of metal, and is well over twice the size of the ISS, which would drive the costs up considerably. Quark's being worth something as paltry as $10 million seems a bit of a low estimate given this fact.

[@cracklingice]

Also remember that quark's bar has a restaurant, casino and holosuites. IMO 10 million sounds low - but I guess if you consider the space on the station as rented space, 10 million could be reasonable.

[@thesapphiredragon8568]

Not only that, but the space alone must be worth a lot. It's a huge three story space with extra side rooms. That's not even mentioning the holosuites

[@TOKOLOSE]

@@decimation9780 Buddy ISS cost were 150 billion USD you are way low balling price of DS9 I would say to build DS9 Cardassians sped about 350 Trilion not billion :D

[@mnmseven]

Quark's is not just a bar, it's a freaking casino too.

[@FH-cn3mg]

The 7th Street Casino in KCK is about the size of Quark's bar, and it has an annual revenue of 11 million dollars. I can see Quark's being worth well over 10million.

[@storerestore]

It's the only casino on the only space station near the only feasible way to the Gamma quadrant...10 000 000 seems like a bargain

[@felineblue4677]

Not just that but with the holosuites it’s also a customizable brothel. Plus we know holosuites are at least a luxury item in the alpha quadrant. Then in later seasons it shows he expands the bar to have private party rooms like in Dax’s bachelorette party. I think that’s an underestimate also considering it’s location.

[@JakShadwin]

I think it's also implied that some of the deals to run business on DS9 include maintenance agreements with whomever owns the station. Otherwise Quark running his establishment both under kardasian and Federation control is odd. I'm sure it has to do with Feringi phrasing to make the contract transferable, and since both factions trade with the Empire, they honor it.

[@OriginalMokthol]

@@JakShadwin I wouldn't be surprised if Quark invested in the construction of DS9. He has a large establishment from what we can tell, and he's been around since the occupation. He's well established. I'm not surprised at all at how much his place is worth, it's probably worth more to be fair.

[@DemonEyes622]

I'd say the root beer wasn't replicated, they do mention from time to time, that replicated food doesn't always taste the same as real food

[@hanelyp1]

Related: - Quark had stocks of specific foodstuffs for catering to Cardasians. Why keep stocks of food (outside emergency rations) if the replicated stuff were as good. - The Cisco restaurant in New Orleans. Not just a place to grab a bite to eat. A place to eat food you can't get from a replicator, in a social setting.

[@wingedfish1175]

Sorry I haven't watched ds9 do they ever say this in that show because in the context of tng voyager etc the replicated food is stated to not taste as good because it's altered to be healthy which loses taste

[@hanelyp1]

@@wingedfish1175 In the strong opinion of Ben Sisco, station commander, son of a chef, and very good amateur chef himself, replicated food isn't as good. I don't recall a clear instance in DS9 stating that nutritional concerns are involved in the taste of replicated food, but 2 cases from TNG, a chocolate sundae and synthahol, it is very strongly implied. By the way, DS9 is better than TNG or Voyager.

[@DemonEyes622]

@@wingedfish1175 it's been awhile since I watched the show, but does it really matter. they are all part of a shared universe after all. though some writers here and there don't do any research, particularily those writing more recent star trek. you can always get a copy of a wayne gretzky rookie card, but you would prefer the real thing.

[@trenthawkins]

@@wingedfish1175 My understanding of replicated vs cooked food is that replicated food is always the exact same (barring computer errors that like to crop up on federation vessels), down to the molecules. Every single piece of Macaroni in that Mac & Cheese you replicated is the exact same. Whereas there are always so many minor variations when you cook. Every time you make the dish it is subtly different than the last despite your best efforts. This is why cooked food, even when using replicated ingredients, is often considered better. Although in some cases, particularly federation vessels, replicated items *were* altered to be healthier (they are a military outfit after all "This unit is programmed to provide sources of acceptable nutritional value. Your request does not fall within current guidelines. Please indicate whether you wish to override the specified program?"), and that in those cases, yes - the alterations did affect the taste vs the "real" versions. But that was a programmed guideline vs what the replicators are capable of.

[@roble8943]

Considering Quark owns a Casino and the fact he has referenced to have many other side investments that he keeps secret from the Ferengi Commerce Authority, and thus is likely to launder much of the money to his bar, 10 million bars doesn't seem too far fetched. The only reason it doesn't seem right is because Quark gives the impression that it's a feeble business. But it's only feeble in his Ferengi perception. Considering Ferengnar is an entire culture revolved around wealth, the culture probably has unrealistically high standards on what is considered high class wealth.

[@grubdub9719]

Same with Nog having 50000 makes sense for a ferangi youth of his age to have that much never spending anything, also starting over “ in the gamma quadrant” where the exchange would be better. Same with somewhere in the outer rim of the alpha quadrant.

[@explorinjenkins349]

@@grubdub9719 Quark does often compare himself to his cousin Gayla, who owns a moon. A bar in comparison is pennies.

[@LordNumbnutsthe1st]

Considering there's a clip here somewhere on KZbin where Quark freely admits to Garak that he's stuck running a bar while his cousin owns an entire moon somewhere, I'm not surprised "10 mil bars" is considered "laughably feeble" by Ferengi standards. Rule of Acquisition number 45: Expand or Die.

[@yelloandy]

He also has holosuites which is another form of review

[@Shatterverse]

There's also the aged old strategy of acting poor to not draw attention to yourself when you are in fact filthy rich. This is especially useful and prudent in times and places of high danger, instability, war, crime, etc. If you make yourself look like a worthless target, you're more likely to be overlooked in favor of big showy rich people. Then you can quietly hoard your cash behind their backs and left silently to yourself about how rich you really are. I think Quark's cries of destitution at least in part hide his actual wealth and success. Given how successful of business person he is, regardless of his wealth, playing the part of the poor and unfortunate pauper well is a good way to deflect attention, but without making it look like it's your fault, and maybe if you're lucky tricking people into giving you a little extra out of the goodness of their stupid hearts lol.

[@kinguin7]

Ripping a dress you made to prove a point sounds *exactly* like the type of thing someone who makes exorbitantly expensive clothes would do.

[@ohnochuck]

The Devil Wears Garak

[@HuubHeesakkers]

@@ohnochuck 'I understood that reference'

[@cyberninjazero5659]

@@ohnochuck The Pah-Wraith wears Garak*

[@ericcastillo4026]

@@ohnochuck nah he just rents it, he can't afford to own Garak a favor lol

[@yetiironworks]

@@HuubHeesakkers, I understood that "I understood that reference" reference.

[@user-gj1mc3yl7m]

you gotta remember, this is in a post manufactured-scarcity economy, luxuries can be priced much higher when its the only thing you actually need to pay money on, and if you are selling, you could actually price you goods for however much you wanted, because you could still afford to eat at the end of the day

[@baneofbanes]

Of course that then brings the question of how you get the money?

[@88michaelandersen]

@@baneofbanes Most people in Star Trek don't really have any money; there are scenes where characters are baffled by the concept of money. They just replicate things when they want them. We, the audience, watch the people with interesting lives; lives that involve scarcity and hard decisions. Those people still deal with money and have jobs to get it.

[@baneofbanes]

@@88michaelandersen yes I know. You seem to have missed my fucking point.

[@NorCalTraveler]

BRICKS!!! BRICKS!!!! BBBRRRIIIIIIIIICCCCCKKKSSSSSS!!!!!! Why does everyone always forget about the bricks of gold pressed latinum?!?!

[@thatguynexus5935]

Bricks are the best.

[@spacemonkey1776b]

Much like how people forget 500$ bills. Not used much if at all and mostly to transfer large quaintness between parties

[@NorCalTraveler]

@@spacemonkey1776b if my history serves me correctly, there was even a Trillion Dollar Bill. Too bad Montgomery Burns stole it :'(

[@acrocanthos-maxima4504]

bruh

[@scottdotjazzman]

CGPGrey strikes again!

[@quantaluxvision]

There's another angle to consider: bribes/tips. Throughout the show, we see Ferengi bribing each other using slips. That's another good way to determine the value. A government employee accepting 2-3 slips ($2-3) per customer makes a lot more sense than 20-30 cents or $20-30 to answer simple questions, or the cost of entering a Ferengi household.

[@TentaclePentacle]

7 slips to use the elevator, sounds about right if it's 7 dollar per ride.

[@Torlik11]

@@TentaclePentacle and Quark sound like the kind of person who would climb 40 floors (don't remember the exact number) to save 7$.

[@NorthernNorthdude91749]

It's not bribes. It's literally Ferengi culture.

[@Templarfreak]

@@NorthernNorthdude91749 i mean, it is technically bribes but you are also still right that _is_ also just ferengi culture lol

[@CoralCopperHead]

@@NorthernNorthdude91749 "To give something without expecting recompense in return is as repugnant as murder." I'm paraphrasing and I don't even remember where the line I'm thinking of comes from (it's definitely not Trek) but it seems fitting here.

[@whitslack]

Quark's bar has several holosuites in it! Those have got to be extremely expensive equipment, so $10M doesn't seem that unreasonable.

[@forestwells5820]

I thought it was more like 3-6.

[@typhoonoftempest]

The largest point here is that Quark's bar is the single largest venue on the promenade, taking up more space than medical or security. In terms of volume, it takes up more space than Operations! Doubling down the fact that it is in a very prominent location in a station with a limited habitable interior, I'm actually surprised it isn't even more expensive.

[@ummdustry5718]

@@typhoonoftempest This goes doubly true when we remember that the station is basically the Suez of the alpha-quadrant, thousands of lives were lost for the taking and re-taking of Ds9, property there is going to lean on the expensive side.

[@pickeljarsforhillary102]

Quarks has 3 floors. There could even be a basement store room to make it 4.

[@whitslack]

@@forestwells5820 Looks like it's at least six, as Klingons damaged "holosuite six" when they visited Quark's bar in the DS9 episode "Dramatis Personae." Good catch!

[@scytheseven9173]

What about the price of self-sealing stem bolts?

[@RundFyrkant]

Haha you beat me to that question 🤓

[@jhonbus]

I had an answer but then I realised I was thinking about reverse-ratcheting routers. Always get those two mixed up.

[@MrBranboom]

10,000 rapajies of yamack sauce!

[@cympimpin20]

I don't know for sure, but I'll trade you for 5,000 wrappages of Yamok sauce.

[@pickeljarsforhillary102]

Or all the cases of Kanar that Quark had to throw away after the Dominion retreated back to their space.

[@xcmodev1558]

“Open source root beer” is a whimsical beautiful term

[@kse3]

OpenCola is a thing that exists

[@MikeTheRipper12]

You wouldn't download a root beer? Watch me

[@Free_Krazy]

@@MikeTheRipper12 I just pictured your profile pic pouring root beer all over your PC.......

[@seriousZmij]

Do you make open source root beer from open source beer by chown?

[@kurtr1181]

@EpicZantetsuken I bet they didnt have that issue in the 24 1/2th century

[@KelsaRavenlock]

Quark's bar also has no competitors making it a local monopoly and therefore raising it's value in Ferengi culture.

[@beau-urns]

Its on DS9, and next to the ONLY stable wormhole between two quadrants of the GALAXY. And even the Grand Nagus was impressed with its value and importance. I would say 10 to 50 million is reasonable, if not conservative to be honest

[@kinagrill]

It also has a higher value cuz Quark would say so :p

[@SirCraigius]

I think the real question is how latinum goes into each slip, strip, bar or brick? The amount of latinum that Morn gave to Quark seemed tiny in the little glass, but according to Quark that was 100 bricks worth. So the amount in say 1 slip must be extremely small. Maybe a drop or two per bar at most?

[@firetoacat]

With how Ferengi treat things and put value into something and taking in mind how stingy they are, I figure that they only use enough Latinum in each slip/strip/bar to give them some sort of value and to keep the stuff from being replicated (I bet it can be replicated, but Ferengi likely created a law so air tight that no one dare try to break it). Who ever rules their world and run it most likely have huge vaults of pure latinum and allow very little of it to be melted down and used in the money system.

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

That visual effect was quite good, too. Hinted at a hefty amount of weight and density to such a small amount. Being "pressed" or forming an alloy must not dilute its value all that much. Could be microscopic amounts is all that's needed to confer value to gold.

[@ricknineg]

They always mentioned anything replicated is close to 99% close to the “real thing” but never the same. There is something missing. This could account for someone playing more for the root beer if it’s original vs replicated

[@Martial-Mat]

The entire Star Trek universe neither has replicators, nor a non-currency system of operation. Root beer costs whatever Quark chooses to charge for it.

[@eanna3781]

@@Martial-Mat Don't forget the cost of production and transport

[@BlueSatoshi]

From the TNG tech manual: "The chief limitation of all transporter-based replicators is the resolution at which the molecular matrix patterns are stored. While transporters (which operate in realtime) recreate objects at quantum-level resolution suitable for lifeforms, replicators store and recreate objects at the much simpler molecular-level resolution, which is not suitable for living beings. Because of the massive amount of computer memory required to store even the simplest object, it is impossible to record each molecule individually. Instead, extensive data compression and averaging techniques are used." tl;dr There's not enough storage space to feasibly store an object in full detail. That's on top of the synthesizers messing with the nutritional content to make it "healthy".

[@DrewLSsix]

@@BlueSatoshi it likely operates similar to audio sampling. While people still claim theres a noticable difference the science shows otherwise as the sound ultimately produced is not digital its self even having been recorded in bits.

[@VincentGonzalezVeg]

@@eanna3781 the ferengi charge to spin on a dime and give you a drink

[@sapphic_sophie]

I never even thought of licensing replicator recipes! That’s fascinating.

[@DaveMcAnulty]

Monsanto: breathing intensifies.

[@patrickhobbs8201]

Me neither, but it makes sense! Honestly, it's an extension of buying software at that point. Or paying for pre-recorded music. Or charging for the file of a 3D-printable part/thing.

[@Plasmacore_V]

The big question is how do you enforce the licensing? When you could conceivably buy it once, and now that it's in your possession, simply say, "Computer, scan this thing for replication and save the file."

[@TalexTheLich]

think about how cool that would be to have? like you could make a recipe and have it be PERFECT each and every time you make it, just have it plugged into a replicator and done, no over or undercooking. no "its too sweet/biter" or anything.

[@CB0Otz]

If we had Star Trek stuff irl, you can guarantee that if replicators were readily available, it would still be locked behind some government license. And just like real life, megacorporations would've bought the patents for literally everything so you have to pay for even basic amenities, despite them being readily available.

[@EnderSword]

We refer to Quark's as a bar, but it's a Casino in a huge trade hub that receives a lot of rich people. On top of the Dabo wheels, it's also clear on a few occasions that his bar is a large sportsbook. It's quite likely that such a thing would have remote customers as well. If we're also really just referring to 'Quarks Bar' more as 'Quark's Sole Proprietor Business' it could also include his import and export dealings too. They at one point state that Quark's bar generates a profit of 5 bars a day, If you said that a decent sized casino, bar and holosuite place made $50,000 a day then it wouldn't be unreasonable to value that business at $50,000,000 Also, while Nog is 20, he's also a Ferengi. If you told me Jake had $50k at 20, that seems unreasonable. But Nog, it doesn't. It's also important to note this is his life savings the year after he sold all his childhood stuff, which some people paid extra for for sentimental value. On top of it all, it feels like the less value a 'slip' is, the more cumbersome it is as a currency.

[@kauske]

One thing to consider is that DS9 might have vendor licences like NYC does, the permits for street vendors can go for ludicrous amounts in NYC, same for taxi permits. Factor in a pricey permit, all the tech and likely alterations to support the holosuites, extra replicators etc, 50 million sounds about right. I think the bigger issue is that the value of the latinum was never really considered in depth.

[@echoplots8058]

And yet Quark can't help making all kinds of shady deals on the side, to the point where he almost contributes to a genocide. I've always wondered how he could be in such dire need of latinum when his bar seems to be doing fine. He isn't. He's just greedy. He's the archetypical ferengi. He can never get enough.

[@shawn092182]

@@echoplots8058 the 10th Rule of Acquisition: Greed is eternal.🤑

[@G3rain1]

I think the cost of the Bar would only include the physical assesses in contained and the space it occupied. Not the nature of the businesses conducted there.

[@EnderSword]

@@G3rain1 That's not really how anything is valued though, you don't value a bar, or any business, based just on the physical assets. You value a business based on the income it generates, not just the physical assets.

[@eldoradolou]

Rule of Acquisition #102: "Nature decays, but latinum lasts forever."

[@snapeinvader]

Which is odd, considering...latinum is a natural element and nature self-sustaining.

[@addnamelater7762]

Heat death of the universe: Helo

[@pokemonfanmario7694]

@@addnamelater7762 Q: allow me to introduce myself.

[@DTux5249]

​@@snapeinvader to be fair, this assumes that "lasts" means "will never decay" I feel Latinum "lasts forever" in the same way diamond "lasts forever"

[@andrewfox368]

For perspective on the cost of Quark’s bar: a hot dog stand license in a high-traffic location in NYC can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. It would not at all be wild to assume that Quark’s bar could be worth tens of millions of dollars. He’s one of only two nightlife establishments we know of on the entire space station, which while not huge in population does support a good amount of traffic.

[@raven4k998]

what exactly is Latinum? is it like Platinum? or something like that?

[@Mechabang]

​@@raven4k998I want to say precious liquid metal. Think platinum in the consistency of mercury.

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

Funny enough, in reality the value of precious metals started out being purely based on their rarity, luster, and the ability to shape them into transportable tender and means of exchange beyond simple barter. Then we discovered scientific, practical, and commercial applications for them. I have to wonder if latinum is meant to have special properties like that, making it both prized for its appearance and as a commodity not unlike dilithium. It's supposed to be impossible to replicate due to its atomic structure, and dilithium is often said to be dangerous or difficult to produce as well. Post-scarcity only seems to apply to the essentials, but high technology still requires materials that can't just be formed out of re-shuffled atoms and molecules.

[@unkarsthug4429]

​@@raven4k998It's one of the only materials in star trek that can't be replicated, which means it is one of the few materials that has scarcity, which is a requirement for a currency. It has to be harvested from nebulae or something. It isn't stated to have much of a use beyond that.

[@paradox7358]

Can we just appreciate for a moment that even your spread sheets are presented in the Star Trek console style.

[@tiredofliars]

LCARS (Library Computer Access/Retrieval System) is the proper name for the Star Fleet Operating System of TNG and since DS9 was a direct spinoff, we have to assume the same for that and Voyager. It was supposed to represent a streamlined version of a Graphical User Interface.

[@khyronkravshera7774]

The problem is relying on Quark too much. His bar is the only venue of it's type on the station and possibly in the whole sector. Furthermore Bajors economy is still devistated and suffering from decades of occupation. Which means Quark is in a unique opportunity to charge exorbitant prices while paying very low wages.

[@DozyBinsh]

The elasticities are pretty difficult to estimate because of replication technology. Does Quark face an inelastic supply situation from being the only bar on the only stable space station in the region--we might think of this as the only restaurant in an airport, able to charge exorbitant prices to anyone who doesn't want to leave the terminal and reenter through security--or does he face an extremely elastic situation because replicators can approximate everything he sells for the cost of knocking together some raw hydrogen? We've seen crew complain about replicator rations, but we also don't have a baseline for the quality of replicated food in normal circumstances vs a rationing situation vs fresh cooked. Always interesting to think about though :)

[@khyronkravshera7774]

@@DozyBinsh Crew have access to Replicators but many merchant ships in the region do not. Further the only major public eatery other than Quarks is the Replimat something similar to a Cafeteria with Replicators and later a Klingon restaurant. But there are no alcoholic beverages sold (that can get you drunk) No holosuites, no gambling, no scantily clad dabogirls etc. A closer analogy would be a Indian Casino in a otherwise Dry county with no gambling and a ban on smoking inside. Since the Indian Casino is exempt from these limits if you want to get drunk, gamble, smoke or party in any real way it's their way (at their prices) or it's the highway.

[@tenhirankei]

You're saying Quark would exploit problems with Bajor's economy! That's terrible! How Ferengi of him!

[@Krahazik]

@@DozyBinsh There are references where Quark doesn't replicate everything he sells. He does import some genuine non-replicated (hopefully) items.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@khyronkravshera7774 there's also at least the klingon restaurant and the bolian restaurant. btw the name replimat is a spin on "automat", which was a popular cheap food type place in the 50s and 60s

[@jimtilley1158]

Dont forget the price to enter Moogies house was 1 slip, 3 slips to use a chair. and 7 slips to use the elevator. 1 slip = 1.00 USD makes alot of sense.

[@MaiAolei]

Before I found out today that the latinum is actually encased in gold, I was always puzzled by that. How Quark stuck pieces of gold in collection boxes to pay fees like that. Now I can rest easier.

[@KuraIthys]

@@MaiAolei Yeah, it can be confusing when you watch the props. But there's a reason it's called 'gold pressed latinum' and not just 'latinum'. The latinum is in containers made of gold. XD (Imagine how much latinum would be worth today if you somehow got some here from the future. Without replicators the gold is actually valuable again, so those bars would be worth a fortune.)

[@theredscourge]

Wasn't that the commerce tower or whatever the place is called that the FCA and Grand Nagus are at?

[@methamphetamelon]

@@theredscourge Yes, it was, though I believe the other guy paid Quark something when he entered the dwelling as well.

[@ShojoBakunyu]

In 1999 I had my prom dress custom sewn by a seamstress for under $500, including materials and fitting. I found her by asking the woman cutting fabric at the fabric store if she could recommend anyone so she's local and not famous but did a simply spectacular job. My dress was the envy of my friends that paid $1,000 off the rack. Even with inflation I think most people are over estimating the price of a hand made, custom dress since the price of fabric hasn't changed that much since then. I know because I sew now and am up to date on modern prices.

[@FrancescoDondi]

Immagine someone -just 100 years ago- trying to make sense of how much we pay for things. They'd be absolutely confused.

[@Kiyoshi_9606]

People on Star Trek don't pay rent. People 30 years ago didn't have cell phone bills. We don't allot any money for Holodeck privileges. The balance of what things are worth don't make any sense, despite how hard the effort was made...

[@CookingwithYarda]

@@Kiyoshi_9606 Exactly ! If I didn't pay rent last 18 years in London, I'll have £60 000 on my bank account now !

[@JonatasMonte]

@@CookingwithYarda £60.000 (haha my keyboard has Pound but not Euro) for 18 years in London!? Pff, and they say buying is better.

[@ohnochuck]

@@JonatasMonte Yeah, that's 277.77 pounds a month on average? I'm American but that seems low for the famously-expensive London. Can EC Henry do a video breaking this down?

[@katieandkevinsears7724]

Because our money was backed by gold then...now its just the faith of the American people.

[@sapphic_sophie]

I love the idea of literally liquid currency rather than metal pieces.

[@Qardo]

Technically the Latium is a metal. Just liquid at room temperature.

[@hellishgrin4604]

Gallium is often liquid at room temp, it also can be made i to coins if cooled. Edit: forgot to mention gallium is a metal. I'm quite partial to the idea of glass or silica money due to the hard nature of working glass into a perfectly uniform shape and color.

[@danielgarcia9371]

Realistically though money in the future will most likely be entirely digital, since as inflation devalues money, the cost to produce it gets too high. For example, in the US, the cost of making a penny is actually higher than the value of the penny itself (which is why in Canada they've actually stopped making pennies). This trend will only continue, and eventually we'll have to get rid of the nickel, dime, and eventually quarter (though how long it would take to completely devalue the quarter, I have no idea). But regardless of production costs, people just generally prefer paying with their card over using cash, at least in the areas I've worked in. So I think it's reasonable to expect that by the time of Star Trek - the 2370s iirc - physical money would be completely historical and everything would be paid for digitally.

[@hellishgrin4604]

Fun fact, the US doesn't have pennies, we have 1 cent coins.. Pennies are a European thing that we adopted.

[@vexter3225]

_Bookleman Agee with liquid currency you just need to weight the liquid.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

You skipped Bricks! The most valuable of all GPL units!

[@hyper6500]

Probably because the conversion rate from bars to Bricks is unknown. No numbers on how many bars to a brick of GPL.

[@Davis_237]

It only shows up once, and is probably the equivalent of a $1000(+) bill or other high value bake notes used by governments and major corporations in the old days or in rare cases when dealing in cash transactions...or to much of a head ache to model into his analysis, lol

[@Janoha17]

@@Davis_237 Seeing as the one time it shows up, it was stolen from a major bank and hidden at another bank (while the latinum itself was siphoned out and imbibed for safe-keeping). (Think like Hans Gruber's target in Die Hard.)

[@disruptive_innovator]

maybe use the volume of the props to guesstimate? not perfect, the concentration of latinum probably varies, but a starting point

[@rassilonomegaotherguy]

20 bars to the brick according to the licensed (but not canon) Star Trek RPG by Last Unicorn Games.

[@jesseberg3271]

This is actually how they do estimated conversions between modern and historical currency. The Dutch paid 60 gildurs for the Island of Manhattan, but how much would that be worth today? Doing the same analysis EC Henry did here, people have gotten anywhere from $16 to $1,000. The same is true of asking how rich Crassus really was, or Mansa Musa. All we can do is try to figure out what commodity prices have changed the least and estimate from there.

[@ezraclark7904]

About the purchase of Manhattan, it's not like landowner1 negotiated that sale price with landowner2. The natives were given what was recorded as ~60 gildurs worth of goods in exchange for shared hunting rights on the island.

[@nutzeeer]

But the commodity good prices are about zero

[@milessumida6770]

Now I can’t stop thinking about a very confused economist using the CURRENT value of the island of Manhattan to assess the historical value of a guilder.

[@PWingert1966]

Also, inflation is not eternal. The economy goes up and down as society goes up and down. What would an amphora of wine be worth just after troy got sacked? Not much if you are on the run with no possessions an amphorae of wine has no value!

[@dextrodemon]

you should always do that as 'inflation' is actually a fairly poor way of working out how much something 'really' cost

[@jamesderosa2041]

Suggestion: The creators put way less thought into this and used whatever numbers that sounded good for whatever dialogue. Haha. I do appreciate the thought put into this.

[@rexone9564]

Liar, the show is flawless and without any errors or plot armor.

[@Gameguru667]

@@rexone9564 What ARE the Prophets, then?

[@UGNAvalon]

@Technomancer - Carefully-planned long-term story arc prepared early in the show’s bible?

[@Gameguru667]

@@UGNAvalon that's what they are out of character. What are they in canon?

[@UGNAvalon]

@@Gameguru667 I meant that as a joke, indicating that they _Weren't_ so carefully planned during the beginning. ;P To answer your question properly tho: I think they're sufficiently-advanced aliens with godlike powers (think Q), which inhabit the wormhole space.

[@MikeStavola]

One of the things to factor in is that... Well, values change over time. Items we'd consider cheap were exorbitantly expensive 350 years ago. And cheap things then are super expensive, hand crafted, artisan products now.

[@Jedi2155]

The thing that doesn't change as much over time, is the price of labor, because ultimately people's time is the most finite resource. Unless of course you go into slavery, and and adjust labor rules. I think the values he provided was close, but I'd wager the final value is in between his two estimates. I think $1/strip is too low, and $5 is too high. Although I'd bet the writers of DS9 was valuing $1/slip in their original writing but taking into account modern inflation and expectations for wages, we should use the Dabo girl wages as the baseline, was was between $1400 - $7000 / month in the estimate ($16,800 - $84,000/yr), but I'd wager it would be closer to $36k/year ($3,000/month) which makes the numbers come out much better and more realistic based on 2023 standards. So that makes $1 slip = $2.14, 1 strip = $214, and 1 bar at $4,280. Which isn't that far off from the price of Gold today. 1 oz of gold is close to $2000, and 100g is 3.5 ounces which puts it close to $7040. The next major unit is 1 kg (1000g) which today is $62,000, and that could be the equivalent unit of a brick. Using that baseline of 1 bar = 100g, and 1 brick = 1000g, and with Quarks net worth at 100 bricks and 600 bars, that would equate his wealth to roughly $6.84 million which is very respectable today but far from being ultra rich. That wouldn't put Quark even in the top 1% of Americans (3 million people would have more than him).

[@RaptureZJ88]

10 million for such a large space on a prominent space station and trade hub. Seems reasonable to me. Space is at a premium and has value on its own before you even factor in that space is used for.

[@briangriffin9793]

seems too low actually. It is really comparable to having a major Vegas casino being built and operated

[@crgkevin6542]

Not to mention that Quark's is more of the equivalent to a small casino rather than merely just a bar or restaurant.

[@travishimebaugh8381]

Maybe, but if I remember right DS9 didn't seem like a popular destination for travelers (when the series started, at least). Bajor was ravaged by war and the populace had strong religious proscriptions against most kinds of vice. It would be like opening an airport terminal casino in, like, rural Iran. Quark's Bar actually sounds like a pretty risky proposition.

[@darthhodges]

@@travishimebaugh8381 That's why he tried to leave first episode. But Sisko promised him zero rent and utilities and minimal government regulation or oversight. That agreement alone could be worth $10 million later on in the series.

[@insertanynameyouwant5311]

@@travishimebaugh8381 everything changed after the wormhole, of course Quark couldn`t know it though

[@jessewilson8676]

A bottle of “ real rootbeer “ one with oil sarsaparilla oil ( illegal in many countries now) can be $25-$100 each...

[@alexojeda9048]

Why's it illegal in some countries?

[@jessewilson8676]

@@alexojeda9048 it is the main ingredient in MDMA. Aka the drug Ecstasy

[@alexojeda9048]

@@jessewilson8676 Huh! I did not know that.

[@TheRealNormanBates]

@@jessewilson8676 soo... I can get high off of (real bona fide) root beer?

[@toomanymarys7355]

@@alexojeda9048 Because they fed massive amounts to move and managed to link it to cancer. It's not actually bad for you.

[@axepagode33626]

Quarks isn't just a bar. It is a Bar, Restaurant, Casino, and Entertainment Venue.

[@TechBrewGamer]

I bet he makes a ton off the dabo tables.

[@MpaYn]

Basically it's a saloon minus the hotel, unless you pay to sleep in the holosuites.

[@augustday9483]

Plus it's one of the largest rooms on the promenade of Deep Space 9, an _extremely_ important trade and military hub situated at the mouth of the galaxy's only known stable wormhole. That's PRIME commercial real estate, like owning a keystone store in a very popular shopping mall or big city. Quark's bar could easily be worth tens of millions to the right buyer.

[@tamlandipper29]

Yeah. With no competition. That's perfectly plausible. The dabo girls probably also get deductions after salary AND we don't know the cost of living on the station.

[@mclmrtn]

Quark's Bar has holosuites as well as proprietary holo programs. Don't forget too, it's not just a building or something. It's got all sorts of gadgets and technologies behind the walls, in the ceiling, etc.

[@SusCalvin]

It's a space station. Just the basics of keeping everyone alive in the bar requires a lot more infrastructure and expertise than if Quark had built a bar on a habitable planet. Even more expensive than having Quark buy the upper floor of Empire State. If Quark actually owns a small part of a large hyperstructure in space, not renting or leasing it, that would be pretty impressive. I don't know if any of the civilians on that station can own parts of it.

[@CharlesFreck]

@@SusCalvin This is an important point. Quark might be in a very profitable business, but Cisco is definitely charging him a hefty rent and maintenance fee. Quark doesn't own his bar, he rents. When he talks about "selling the bar" he means it in the way businesses with rented storefronts mean it; he's selling all the equipment he's installed into the building, but he's not selling the actual space. If Quark owned it, I doubt Starfleet would send O'Brien to fix his replicators and holo-suites all the time without some sort of compensation. But as landlords, they have a requirement to fix Space Station infrastructure when it breaks. So I imagine that while yes, he is quite rich, he's probably paying a large sum of rent, licensing fees for running a casino, registration fees, and any other bureaucratic fee Starfleet and the Bajorans can think of. Not to mention, he's probably having to pay Tax to both the Bajorans and Ferengenar. Once you add all that up, he probably isn't quite that wealthy by the time all his expenses are covered. I also imagine he can't sell his bar easily, since Cisco seems to believe if Quark leaves in the first episode, there won't just be another barkeep showing up to take his place, and despite the fact that Quark causes quite a bit of trouble in the first 2 seasons, even directly betraying them, he's never evicted. This suggests to me that the frontier bar business isn't an easy one, and not an opportunity that many people would be interested in. I mean, every time the station is attacked/taken over or closed to civilians, Quark is taking massive losses. The bar, on paper, looks like it's very profitable and Quark would be making millions. But once all his expenses and risks are taken into account, I think the actual sum he ends up with is a fair bit more modest.

[@SusCalvin]

@@CharlesFreck That's what I thought, it would be a very rare exception for an individual to own a part of a superstructure in space. Too many systems depend on eachother to have a multitude of smaller actors who run it like a patchwork. Valerian et Laureline has a huge conglomerate space station where new arrivals just attach their habitat to the growing superstructure. It still has a core of generational maintenance techs toiling away in the background with the core systems.

[@hmmm348]

Not to mention slot machines, which IRL cost anywhere from $50,000 to 100,000 to own as an investment. That's $1m per 10.

[@josiahzabel8596]

Sisko@@CharlesFreck

[@Shatterverse]

Also remember that in the time period with the technology described, the real currency is energy. But transferring wealth by carrying around batteries or power cells is cumbersome. Effectively, gold press platinum is worth a certain amount of energy credits in a given situation or location. Corp doesn't get his energy for free, he buys it from the station because he's a civilian and not a federation of citizen; Even after the admission of bajor into the federation and the theoretic transference of ownership of deep space nine directly to the federation, quark is not a federation citizen, and thereby is not entitled to free manufactured, replicated goods, or energy from the federation. So the price of everything is going to be scaled based on that and other factors: energy costs, employee salaries, maintenance, rent, cleaning costs, etc. just like any modern facility. Then of course there's the Ferengi markup, supply and demand, competition, etc.

[@illyth63]

The $10 million for Quarks Bar doesn't seem high at all when you consider the multiple functioning (usually) holosuites that are included in the property. Those have to be pricey.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

If you think of Quark's like a space Dave & Busters, that might be an equivalent.

[@andrewgilbertson5672]

Plus, it's a hub of trade and potential moneymaking opportunities for any new species that come through the wormhole- 'A wise man can hear profit in the wind.' The potential opportunities it has for picking up exclusive contracts, along with friendly trade and commerce opportunities with the Bajorans, Federation, Klingons, and in the right circumstances, Cardassians... that has to drive up the price in Ferengi eyes.

[@tigersebel]

I think quarks holosuites are next to perfect. i can't recall a single holodeck goes wrong episode where it was the fault of the holosuites. in the james bond episode it was a station wide emergency, so you can't fault them for it. and in the episode where sisko gets zapped in a holosuite and gets visions because of it was because of prophet magic or something. did i miss anything?

[@adaeptzulander2928]

Yep. Even small convenience stores move a few million $ in product value on a yearly basis, so $10M for Quark's isn't unreasonable.

[@johntrevy1]

@@tigersebel And Quark's Holosuites are often mentioned to be state of the art. Going by the feedback from his customers I dont think that assessment is an idle boast.

[@HaydenX]

I have my own little nickname for Quark: "Deep Space MINE!"

[@waynemarvin5661]

How cute.

[@oninoni]

Quarks bar is in a prime location. I can see a bar in central New York being worth 10million. Seems legit

[@rocky8u32]

Considering it is also a casino and the universe equivalent of a movie theater (holosuites) that price makes sense to me.

[@Shuttlekilla]

@@rocky8u32 If Quark is valuing his own bar and reporting it, its probably lies though.

[@mcstotti8691]

@@rocky8u32 oh my sweet summer child. Holosuites arent primarily used as cinemas. Id dare to say Holosuites are a lot like the internet. 30% of the internet is Porn. And holodecks make for much better Porn as they would be actual Brothels id dare to put that estimate a bit higher then on the internet. Id say somewhere between 30-40% of holodeck usage is Prostitution. Also Holodeck s are much more Interactive than Cinemas. I bet the format of Video enternainment still exists. The Comparaisons to Videogames would be a lot more adequate.

[@kva7922046]

It has holosuites and a casino. 10 million sounds low.

[@pkchong79]

you also have to remember ds9 is supposed to be like the the outer edge of known space to the federation kind of like the wild west of space. So, that rootbeer is a commodity item.

[@raven4k998]

what is it worth what ever people will trade for it that's what think about it

[@ericpowell4350]

You mean "luxury item".

[@MNsLegoChannel]

The idea of open-source replicator designs is SOOOO cool and realistic! Not every design is free to replicate, because currency still exists

[@venom1117]

Honestly I have no issue with his bar being worth 10mil. Because it's not just a bar. It's an entertainment hub. Holosuites, casinos, and the bar itself. He also has a few recreational activities around such as darts, private card games, and he also runs as a bookie through it.

[@Urammar]

It's also a locked in monopolised location on a frequently visited space station. Setting up a shop in a shopping centre costs a lot more than a random curbside location in town. If anything, his bars valuation might be too low, not high. Very believable number.

[@watchm4ker]

It's the centerpiece of the Promenade on probably one of the most strategically vital space stations in Federation space. Aside from the risk of military conflict overrunning the Station, the only problem I can see is the bizarre Federation economy.

[@venom1117]

@@watchm4ker I honestly didn't even think about that. The more I think about it the more I think 10mil is a conservative estimate. As for the federation economy stuff I just put that on the writers probably being not sure of how another system would work. Just my opinion.

[@watchm4ker]

@@venom1117 It's more, I can understand the difficulty of selling entertainment to a society that doesn't use money on a regular basis, and that's going to cut into the casino's potential earnings: Not many Federation crew with money to burn, after all. Though it likewise probably saves Quark a ton on station maintenance and upkeep fees compared to the Cardassians.

[@venom1117]

@@watchm4ker you know that always confused me personally. I love Star Trek but I am still pretty surface level. (Only seeing most of the shows and few books.) Do they ever explain how the Federation Citizens deal with other civilizations? I know earth doesn't deal in money anymore, but that has to cause lots of problems for intergalactic trade for normal people. (Since they are allowed to visit other planets and such.) Idk maybe the federation makes a deal with them lmao

[@LadyCathryn]

In Who Mourns for Morn, Morn spits up an amount of latinum that is equal to 100 bars and it doesn't even fill a cocktail glass

[@macswanton9622]

I'm sure that's where the whole pretense falls apart, and why it didn't get a mention. I blame Quarks sense of proportion in general for this.

[@redmatrix]

What if that was just a sample so Quark knew he had the right commodity?

[@DarianHarder]

No because he looked at the shot glass and said “there’s got to be $100 bricks worth redmatrix

[@aperson22222]

That’s why the Ferengi should be using a fiat currency. Their ships spread out all over the galaxy expanding their trade network at a breathtaking rate. (Now that the Feds are a galaxy-spanning superpower, and Ferenginar has been pursuing such a pro-Federation foreign policy, that’s going to get even faster.) If the only store of value they have is something rare, their money supply won’t keep pace and they’ll be faced with crippling deflation. That’s why the gold standard now resides in the dustbin of history.

[@vurrunna]

@@macswanton9622 I think the point was that Latinum is exceptionally valuable, and is stored in tiny amounts. The bars are likely made overly large to give an added sense of "weight" to the material you're dealing with.

[@TheADHDNerd]

Outstanding work! I can tell you that the cost of disposing of a dabo girl after a holo-suite "incident" on Orion IV cost 30 strips. So I think you've about figured it out. ;) On an unrelated note, never remove the program safeties when enjoying a "circa 2020" holo-drama.

[@redshirt0479]

Well on the root beer aspect there is one thing you overlooked, you only counted the price of the bottles of root beer. Quark would likely have charged for the case they came in as well. Still, overall a fascinating video.

[@jblyon2]

Don't forget the labor to carry the case

[@davistud]

he also love to overcharge.

[@matthew8153]

Don’t forget the import tariffs from the Federation to Bajor.

[@MrAranton]

I live in Germany, root beer is way more expensive here than I think it is in the US. Mostly because - to my knowledge at least - root beer isn't made in Germany and is therefore an imported novelty item - and sort of a status symbol - that (if I remember correctly - it's been a while I bought the stuff because I didn't enjoy it the last time I had it) costs at least four times as much as the local equivalent (non-alcoholic malt beer). Quark is a Ferengi who runs a bar on a Bajoran space station. With that in mind, he's more likely to be marketing root beer as a novelty item and not as an everyday beverage, which implies: On DS9 root beer would way more expensive than it is in the present day US.

[@aperson22222]

MrAranton He talks about it all the time as if it’s the most popular drink among humans (of whom he sees a lot) equivalent to the kanar he kept in stock when it was a Cardassian station or the bloodwine he’d need if the Klingons took over. This strikes me as strange: surely humans are most interested in drinking alcohol in a place like that. (There _is_ alcoholic root beer out there, true, but it’s the niche item of niche items.) But there you have it: Starfleet’s beverage of choice (even though I can’t remember it being mentioned once on any other show).

[@madbunny101]

Remember, Quark will inflate his prices. He probably went hi on the root beer.

[@chadhill8776]

Nog’s “life savings” is a bit of hyperbole. He got those five bars from the sale of his “dirt” to Quark. He was partners with Jake at the time, but Jake didn’t take his half because he “didn’t need money” - that was until the baseball card came up for auction, of course. It was the exact same amount - five bars - both times.

[@TentaclePentacle]

i knew nog was a worthless Ferengi, a ferengi without profit is no ferengi at all.

[@Claudanne2]

He could have spent some if not most of it between that time, so he might have made a few slips on the side.

[@argotungsten4336]

Dabo girls may be “showgirls”. So if u think of that , maybe they are “expensive”. Look at how they dress . The are not “regular” waitresses. That kind of “service” isn’t cheap

[@VME-Brad]

They are basically the same as the girls who work the casino floor. Quark's is a casino, not just a bar.

[@Krahazik]

This may be true but its also noted that quark underpays them.

[@argotungsten4336]

VME - Brad Very true . But he also has offered “unsavory” holo-novels in the show that some starfleet officers found awful. He wasn’t above making a buck through almost any means ... except weapons sales . I’m Not calling the call girls . But they are more showgirls is sorts .

[@argotungsten4336]

Ben Swem Good point . I do remember an episode in which they went on strike ... but if I can recall , it wasn’t an excessive amount more ...but I might be wrong on that. It’s been a while . All I’m saying is , I think the calculations in the vid might be too low . However, I can’t be dogmatic about it . Just a theory 😊🤷‍♂️

[@martinhanke1670]

@@argotungsten4336 i literally just watched that episode. they went on strike because quark just cut their wages, due to no business, by a third. they ended up getting it, because quark couldn't do the work by himself.

[@JohnDoe-wq9pr]

I'm not sure if anyone has already brought this up in the comments, but the prices that seemed unusually high may not seem so far fetched if you account for inflation....this may be more complicated to calculate as we don't know on which economy to base it. I suppose if gold pressed latinum is a universal currency, then there's also a universal economy that's an amalgam of all the species involved in trade agreements, with its own rate of inflation. Also consider that every locality probably has its own measure of what things are worth, based on their local economy.

[@cavvieira]

High level programming: easy programming, where the computer does a lot of the work. In the example, if the computer generates the holo program by voice commands, that's about as high level as it gets. Lower level programming is done "closer" to the computer, with languages that are closer to machine language than natural language. The programmer will have to deal with computer constraints instead of it being taken care of automatically for them. More effort to achieve the same function. Therefore more expensive.

[@EnderSword]

We've kind of seen in some of the episodes of TNG, DS9 and Voyager the act of 'programming' a holo-program, and it seems there's a few things, verbal descriptions to the computer, importing scanned images of people if you intend to use their likeness, and the most taxing part seems to be programming in a narrative. If you have a specific narrative with branching options you want to re-tell, then that appears to be the most difficult and time consuming part. So I think there's a big difference between 'custor program where you have sex with someone' and 'Large choose your own adventure epic with branching narratives' So the cost of producing it could probably vary as much as a low budget porn to a blockbuster movie.

[@mattcelder]

This bothered me too, haha.

[@kfcroc18]

You forgot about bricks of gold-pressed latinum.

[@Majima_Nowhere]

They're only mentioned twice in all of star trek, and there's no known conversion rate from bars to bricks.

[@kfcroc18]

@@Majima_Nowhere Isn't like 100 bars to brick?

[@s.clohossey4240]

@@kfcroc18 Considering Quark listed his life savings as "100 bricks and 600 bars of latinum" we can assume the exchange rate is at least >600 bar to 1 Brick. I would venture a guess at 1000 bars to 1 brick, but the 20 strips to a bar means it doesn't need to be a power of 10. On a side not I am pretty sure the 100 bricks comes from the liquid latinum Morn gave Quark in 'Who mourns for Morn?"

[@echoplots8058]

​@@s.clohossey4240 This is getting even more confusing. When you apply that exchange rate, everything becomes infinitely less valuable all of a sudden. And the amount of liquid Latinum Morn spit into his glass was almost nothing. So how much latinum is in a slip/bar etc? Can't be much. Then who decides how much latinum gets pressed into one bar for example? Star trek economics make my head explode!

[@s.clohossey4240]

@@echoplots8058 Well after a bit of Google fu rhodium is the one of the most expensive metals on earth, topping at $14,000/oz with a density of 10.65g/ml in liquid form that means just 2.6ml of the stuff is $14,000 or about 7 bricks worth. Morn had about 1000 bricks worth of Latium in his second stomach, at rhodium prices that would be 328ml or a little less than one can of pop 355ml (12 fl oz). This all means that 1 brick has 1/3 a ml Latinum in it so at 1000 bar/ brick a slip would have an amount of latinum measuring about 1.878x10^-7ml. Not much at all but if latinum is really so valuable it must either be rare or very hard to refine/obtain so a little would go a long way.

[@KillerExe01]

... After 3 minutes in I've come to the conclusion that i don't care, but the compassion that went into researching and editing this video is just so much fun to watch. You sir, are awesome!

[@dustyprater7884]

Great Video!! I did something similar where my math teacher and I figured out how much a Quatloo (that currency from the TOS episode "The Gamesters of Triskelion") was I can't remember the exact amount but I want to say it was ~$1,000 USD = 1 Quatloo. We tried to find the conversation for Latinum but he said it was to foolish to base our calculations on Root Beer, because the price can be very subjective. Anyway, keep up the good work sir!!😁

[@tommycharles4666]

Quark's bar is in a frontier station that has access to customers from across the galaxy. 10 million is a more than fair price. The station is a tourist trap and has constant traffic from curious foreign customers. Any real estate on DS9 would have a vastly inflated value.

[@tiredofliars]

INCLUDING the tailor shop, so Garrak charging higher for the clothing seems more reasonable.

[@sid2112]

I think I remember Sisko talking about Quark not being charged a lease for the property. Which would make it free.

[@stanbunn1329]

Don't forget that Quarks bar also has several Holo-suites, that would be like a bar having several movie theaters.

[@celtichost54]

A couple hundred years ago. People who had spices were rich as all get out. Now everyone has a spice rack on their counter.

[@Draknfyre]

Wars were fought over black pepper. People used to be paid in salt (the origin of the term "Worth their salt.") Pretty much your entire spice rack has a storied, bloody history behind it.

[@ManiacalMill]

@@Draknfyre salt as currency is also where the term salary comes from.

[@RRW359]

Someone's been talking to Commander Tucker too much.

[@harveywallbanger3123]

First off, awesome video. Secondly, can we just reflect on what a unique series DS9 was? The first ST property where they threw the Roddenberry Rules out the window and actually imagined something believable. Even in a highly-regulated and currency-free society there will still be black market capitalism. Replicators make gold valueless? They'll simply invent something that retains it's scarcity and use that as a new currency. Everybody gets their basic needs served for free by replicators? "Extra" services will still be charged for (prostitution, drinks and gambling). Human limitations won't be eliminated once we eliminate "want" - because people will always "want" more, and somebody else will be there to trade it to them.

[@CharlesFreck]

Cisco's paradise speech established the basis for the series very well. At StarFleet headquarters, it's paradise. But on the edges of the federation, and certainly outside the federation, it's not. Not all the problems have been solved yet. Not everywhere has replicators in every house. On Earth, everyone's basic needs might be met and resource scarcity might have been eliminated, but Earth and her immediate area of influence are a very, very small part of the Alpha quadrant. Everywhere else, the struggle to survive remains the same as ever. Even in TNG, their flying around these outer areas in a giant box full of resources and problem solving devices. They never really experience what it's like to be on the edge of civilisation, because everywhere they go they're bringing it with them. So DS9 was the first time we got to see what it's like when you don't have the solution to every problem in the palm of your hand.

[@frankrecinos7158]

I'm reminded of replicator credits from voyager. It's not exactly Latin or money per se but there are limits to what you can replicate and people have observed another places that when the federation deals with societies that still use money federation members have cash equivalents at least in the first episode of TNG Beverly Crusher buys address and she has it charged to her room on the enterprise.

[@coolguyjki]

Informal barter systems have existed since human beings could speak, it isn't "black-market Capitalism". It's very weird to assume our incredibly warped and stratified economic system which encourages consumer greed is just the way humans function -- want can be characterized a lot of ways, and the idea that this want needs to be measured in *currency* , especially currency comparable to modern Capitalist modes of trade, is wild. There isn't some natural mechanism in the human brain that encourages us to produce things for *profit* , it's just a way that human beings have become organized in some societies and some times. Economies which don't rely on currency exchange as a medium can still have luxuries, dude -- they clearly have access to luxury goods and services, and it doesn't seem as if this economy is particularly highly regulated -- why would a post-scarcity economy NEED to be regulated? People who don't *need* for anything can just get the things they want. Very few people actually *want* incredibly expensive luxury services, and the luxuries that most human beings want access to could be created at a pittance with the technological advancements Star Trek presents.

[@thomgizziz]

@@coolguyjki "our incredibly warped and stratified economic system"... aka you have been fed some bull and you are lapping it up. Animals show this behavior. You want to get paid the most possible but will then chastise others that want the same like they are evil but it is fine for you because you arent as successful... get a grip.

[@MagicalMikhail]

​@@frankrecinos7158 I think that was more to do with them reserving energy from being stranded in the Delta quadrant also why they had Neelix gathering ingredients and providing meals.

[@brwi1]

Further complicating things is inflation since the writing of the show. $1 in the mid 90’s would be worth about a $1.70 in 2020

[@MpaYn]

True, but since Quark runs an establishment in a reverse scarcity economy inflation wouldn't be a problem.

[@robertomon5697]

This is why the internet was made. This kind of content.

[@aperson22222]

When independent gaming bars in Vegas change hands, two or three million dollars is broadly speaking a typical price. Those bars all have lots of competition (or they did before Piece of Shitsolak decided to kill the goose that laid the golden egg 😡). Quark’s got a regional monopoly (not counting that one episode with the El Aurian who had a machine that changed the mathematical principles of statistics and probability) so having his bar worth four or five times as much as a Vegas local watering hole seems reasonable.

[@spartansam6322]

I think Quark's bar value is fairly reasonable. As you pointed out it does seem to be one of the few forms of entertainment on a pretty well known space station, but it's more than a bar. It's also a fully functioning casino and it has it's own set of holosuites. Also the station it's one is set next to a wormhole, and it isn't you're ordinary wormhole either seeing as it leads to another quadrant AND is the first known STABLE wormhole

[@samahirrao]

You did as good as anyone could. Complex topic and good explantion, thanks dude.

[@virscelestus]

It's always been my head-canon that starfleet uniforms had some degree of phaser resistance, as we see the uniforms change and become thicker when the dominion war started, and even saw marine uniforms that looked as thick as a fire-fighter suit.

[@OmgPuppies]

It seems to me that the value of latinum varies over time -- notably, during the Cardassian operation Quark only pays his employees one slip per day, indicating that latinum is more valuable at this point (or perhaps that his employees, most of whom were Bajoran, had a much harder time finding employment during the occupation and therefore had to accept much lower wages).

[@oldtimefarmboy617]

When DS9 was televised, you could get a 12 ounce can of Walmart root beer out of the store vending machine for 50 cents.

[@Draknfyre]

You can still get a 12-ounce can of Wal-Mart brand root beer out of the store vending machine for 50 cents.

[@theweirdofengland]

Quark had a monopoly on entertainment for everyone travelling to and from the Gamma Quadrant. The Grand Nagus himself remarked on what a great opportunity it was. So it wouldn’t surprise me if Quark’s bar was worth that much.

[@randomobserver8168]

As always, you're putting more effort into this than generations of Trek writers, struggling to rationalize their sloppiness, and I salute this effort.

[@DavidBeddard]

I like how you've gone about this. Another caveat to add is the fact that any prices quoted by most Ferengi sources would deviate significantly from aggregate market values due to the aggressively profit-driven bargaining techniques being employed. It's in their interest to greatly overvalue what they're trying to sell, exaggerate discounts and undervalue what they're trying to buy. But these ballpark references you've come up with do seem to align with each other well as far as relative valuations compared to each other go, suggesting that there could well have been an agreed behind-the-scenes scheme for approximating something's value in gold-pressed latinum.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Quark doesn't pay those replicator fees, he has security keys and other tricks of the Ferengi trade

[@kaitlyn__L]

replicator keygens

[@DeathBYDesign666]

Yeah but odo knew he was doing it and so did sisko, they let him get away with it in exchange for certain occasional favors. Quark even mentions how much he has overcharged Starfleet for his services so they must not care that much.

[@aperson22222]

Jinx Dragon Even if he does, those belong to him personally, not to the business. If it changed hands, those things would not be included, so would not be reflected in the price.

[@mantidream8179]

The price of Quark's bar is actually pretty reasonable, I think. In a space station, nearly every square foot will be taken up by lilfe support systems, electronics, and other practical elements. What's left is fair game for the highest bidder, but ultimately very pricey.

[@HoofmanJones030397]

I love how you don't mention bricks of gold pressed latinum yet use them in the thumbnail. Fantastic video as always, tho! 😁

[@Zeriel00]

Even if the replicator can technically replicate anything, there's instances where the product is actually bought because the particular replicator on that space station may not have the recipe to do it. For example at the beginning of the series, Quark gets stuck with tons of cases of Kardasian liquor that he can't sell. So he's not replicating it because he doesn't have the recipe. That means the root beer is probably the same.

[@lynngreen7978]

An RPG setting (Last Unicorn Games?) defined a Slip as equal to 1 credit (the unit of currency the Federation used before Gene said they didn't use money*). And a credit in most settings is equivalent to $1 US in the time period it was released. So Slip = $1, Strip = $100, Bar = $2000, Brick = ? (I'd guess $10,000 based on mass) * What Starfleet invested in Spock's training, and Scotty earned on a weekly basis.

[@KuraIthys]

Yeah, LUGtrek (as it is commonly abbreviated. Last Unicorn Games, indeed) defines the federation credit as something that's only used for trade with foreign powers, or for special circumstances (like if the crew of a starship want to buy some trinkets on a planet.) Of course, there are separate sourcebooks for TNG, DS9 and TOS (voyager's exists digitally - released after the company stopped making the game, but was never actually published.) The TOS sourcebook may imply something different about it, but the TNG one states that money isn't in widespread use in the federation, but that the Credit is used for certain types of trade, mostly with foreign powers and certain kinds of internal affairs. It's also sort of implied though that individual member planets can run themselves more or less how they feel like running themselves. That resolves some of the issues, because it means that while the federation as a whole doesn't use money, and Earth is cashless, it doesn't mean that say, the Andorians don't in fact still use some kind of currency. (not saying the Andorians do, but some member planets might) And this is why starfleet ships have a supply of credits that the captain is authorised to distribute, and why starfleet officers might be issued small amounts of currency sometimes even if they don't get paid officially. (we see this on DS9 in fact, given that many of the officers have latinum to pay for things somehow.) LUGTrek also implies that the Federation keeps supplies of foreign currencies (such as latinum) for situations where it may be required by the government or various individuals. Anyway, the idea that some planets in the federation still use currency and others do not helps make sense of various things. Like the marketplace in the TNG pilot, where the race in question was applying for federation membership. Or Sisko's girlfriend who owned a freighter and took on jobs, and somehow seemed to have financial problems every so often. Or O'Brien ending up on some federation planet somehow involved in a mess that one or the other corporation was dealing with. Or... How and why the Orion Syndicate manages to function at all.

[@MrAranton]

Currency and money are not the same thing. Simply put money is the bills and coins you handle while currency is the value the money represents. Up until world war one there was a world currency. Gold. The gold standard defined currencies like British Pounds, German Marks or French Francs as a fraction of an ounce of gold. So if you were paying say a british shilling for something, that shilling represented a certain amount of gold - if remember correctly an 80th of an ounce, but don't quote me on that - even though the coins never actually contained any gold. Nowadays our money isn't backed up by gold anymore. A dollar, or a Euro or a Yen represent a certain (ridiculously small fraction) of the economic activity in the countries that use them as a currency. The way I see it, the Federation credit works similarly. The difference to our approach of money is that Federation no longer uses money (as in bills and coins) as tangible means to represent the credit-currency. Which is pretty much what we do whenever we pay electronically - and a lot more advanced, and convenient than actually moving a physical currency (be it gold or be it latinum suspended in gold). It always struck me as odd, that the super economy focused Ferengi would use a more primitive and inconvenient way to handle transactions than the post-scarcity "above mere ecnomics" Federation does...

[@lynngreen7978]

@@MrAranton That part makes sense. Latinum can not be Replicated, or falsified. and no computer trickery can make it look like you have more than you do. Though I am baffled why Ferengi flipped out over Starfleet officers "adorning themselves with gold," when gold *can* be replicated, and is only useful as a carrying case for the Latinum.

[@mikes1071]

Solid presentation. I think with Quark's bar valued at 10 million dollars is the holo suites and the licenses for his establishment. Licenses like gambling, holo programs, liquor, food and beverage. But the holo suite program licenses will probably cost a lot if he maintains a large catalog for guest to experience.

[@Duke00x]

Also it is on a space station meaning space comes with a premium. And he has a pretty big place.

[@crgkevin6542]

I love how root beer is the key to this!

[@robertmartinu8803]

Going to the root of the problem to find the solution... so much forethought from the DS9 writers!

[@kevingriffith6011]

It's insidious... Just like the federation.

[@matthew8153]

Kevin Griffith Do you think they’ll be able to save us?

[@heinzie5]

I think $10 million is maybe about right for Quarks bar when you factor in that it's not just a bar but has several holosuites, the kind of tech you would see on a Federation starship and something that might be equivalent to say a theater, as well as a small casino. Combined with it's prominent location as well as maybe some slightly padded numbers or Ferangi financial trickery (he often puts his bar up as colateral for business deals) and that could get you to that figure. Also with the root beers i would imagine it's not approx 62 cents per individual bottle but £10 for the entire case, and an individual one would maybe sell for 1 or 2 strips.

[@claytoncarter9467]

I like to think that the Ferengi were the ones who standardized the slip, strip, and bar system of Latinum across the Alpha Quadrant

[@24985bowman]

Your model is broken, I imagine the root beer like a collectable

[@mopslikvonstein]

You are putting way more thought into this than the writers.

[@matthew8153]

Actually no, the writers really did think of everything. They were writing the scripts for the third season before production even began on the first. They loved the show just as much as the fans.

[@matthew8153]

Somerset Frisby You mean the writers in DS9. TNG, Voyager, and TOS has no standards for anything at all.

[@SantaPorter420]

@@matthew8153 standards enough to have become seemingly immortal shows in tv history Here we are 60 years later in TOS case still talking about them

[@stevekillgore9272]

Indeed

[@stevekillgore9272]

@@matthew8153 then you're saying they're stupid, not lazy and foolish.

[@Vvardenfell_Outlander]

I was going to guess you'd base the conversion off the price of a Willie Mays Rookie Card.

[@darthhodges]

Auction prices vary enough that without a significant number of examples to get you an average it's not helpful. Besides, how many of those still exist in the 24th century? One of a kind items are terrible gauges for inflation or conversion.

[@adrianfirewalker4183]

@@darthhodges it would still have been interesting

[@Vvardenfell_Outlander]

@@darthhodges I suppose you're right. Good points. Plus it was implied that the amount payed for the card and the box itself was exorbitant as everyone was surprised when the final bid was stated.

[@ThatLurieGuy]

@7ggu 10 bars, I believe, if memory serves? (Oh that’s right, ladies. I’m more than just a pretty face.)

[@GhostOfSnuffles]

Quark's bar being worth 10mil makes sense. It's on some seriously prime real estate. Not to mention it has it's own storage, halosuites, and a large footprint in a place that has real limitations on such things. It's also important to remember money is a luxury item in the Trek universe so it would make sense that luxury items (like a bar) would be truly expensive items whereas something like a uniform or box of name brand rootbeer wouldn't be that expensive.

[@1simo93521]

Quarks bar is a miniature Las Vegas strip on a boring station with thousands of visitors per day. It must make a fortune unless the federation charges high rent for the spot.

[@alexrodriguez9441]

I never watched DS9, but I was on the SFX crew. There was an episode where a safe is opened up, revealing several large ingots of gold pressed latinum. It was a rush job, like every other thing on that production... so I had to pull a 24 hour shift to complete it on time. The ingots in the background were just featureless pieces of wood cut into shape and painted with automotive paint, put the foreground props were molded in liquid urethane, and came out of the mold with a lot of flash that had to be trimmed off with an x-acto knife. We were in the home stretch, trimming the last few pulls, but my eyes were blurring from exhaustion and the blade slipped and I sliced one of the knuckles off of my left hand. A nearby urgent care stitched me up and sent me home with a big bottle of Vicodin, triggering a relapse of an old heroin habit. Danny Trejo briefly worked at that FX company before me. Very nice man, everybody was quite fond of him.

[@Borgscan]

Thank you for sharing the story! I love behind the scenes things like this. Sorry about your hand, though the visual effect was worth it... I hope!

[@SuperRedraptor]

That was a fucking ride my dude

[@antwan1357]

Someone should make a youtube vid just on what this guy said.

[@DoctorNemmo]

I remember that scene ! It looked great ! I never thought it wasn't metal.

[@5roundsrapid263]

Hope you kicked it again. I had the medical grade stuff once in the hospital; it’s fantastic until it wears off. I took pills for a week, and had to go cold turkey before I got hooked.

[@bobofthekerbals9797]

The price of quarks bar being too high could be explained by the purchaser simply not caring about getting a good deal and wanted to make an offer that pretty much anyone would accept. (In other words rich people pay higher prices for things because they can) edit: although it is weird for a ferengi to not be concerned about spending as little as possible

[@pshalleck]

On the flip side, Ferengi are also very ostentatious, so something highly visible and in limited supply (like a large, centrally-located business property) may be a more valuable opportunity to *display* wealth and prestige. Kind of like when people buy a bigger house than they need/can afford. Is Gaila's moon really that useful? Who knows, but it earned him free rent in Quark's brain and everyone Quark knows also knows of his cousin Gaila (the one with the moon).

[@KingOfMadCows]

Rom offered to buy Quark's bar and we all know that Rom is a bad businessman who puts things like family and empathy over profit.

[@darthhodges]

Remember Quark's first deal with Sisko guaranteed him zero rent and utilities and minimal government oversight and regulation. That contract alone might be worth $10 million.

[@ProfessionalScofflaw]

Who'd have thought Barq's root beer would help solve the star trek currency conundrum!

[@5roundsrapid263]

Quark’s Root Beer? 😄

[@BLenz-114]

Come to think of it, Barq sounds like a Ferengi name, doesn't it?

[@ProfessionalScofflaw]

@@BLenz-114 Barq's is a brand of root beer. It's a real thing.

[@5roundsrapid263]

B. Lenz It’s a French name. It started on the Mississippi Gulf Coast.

[@seanwilkinson8696]

I'm more of an A&W man myself.

[@tennozeorymer]

Huh! I never would have expected gold-pressed latinum to make any sense. Well done!

[@ColinHadaway]

I'm not a Star Trek fan at all, and this video is EVERYTHING I didn't know I needed today.

[@Charliepinman]

i mean when quark originally owned the bar before the wormhole, it might of been worth considerably less? They do go on about how good the acquisition was half way through the show.

[@rjoseph8840]

" might HAVE been..."

[@Quackerilla]

GOOOUUUUAAAALLLD

[@tistedmentality3715]

共匪 you forgot the please part on that.

[@sid2112]

ELLIOT

[@barrybend7189]

Hey can you please do a video on the Variable Fighters from SDF Macross.

[@the_mighty_bearcat]

So, I imagine that a 5-slip bento box lunch special from my DS9 restaurant could include the following: Combo 1: heart of targ, side of gak, rokeg blood pie slice dessert, 16oz prune juice beverage. Combo 2: hasperat, side of katterpod beans, moba fruit dessert, 16oz jumja tea. Combo 3: snail steak, side of tube grubs, flaked blood fleas dessert, 16oz root beer. Granted, the proportions would have to be lunch-sized, and would include some live food storage issues. But I think I could turn a tidy profit with these combo locos!

[@ryanmeakins2993]

I really enjoyed this and your method :) I’ll be borrowing it to work out the economics of my dnd campaign

[@zenniththefolf4888]

Imagine pirating a root beer replicator recipe. You would need a root beer DRM to prevent piracy.

[@pwnmeisterage]

Liquidator Brunt could force you to pay steep fines or revoke your Ferengi Business License. Ferengi cops are probably paid on a commission basis. So pirated rootbeer seems too risky. RIsk is too high for an item with low value and low profit. Quark is better off dealing with "legit" contraband which offers payoffs worth the risk.

[@jhonbus]

Yeah, I'm not gonna install a root(beer)kit on my stomach just so I can have the legit stuff.

[@spamviking]

I'd rather replicate the brewing equipment and ingredients and make it myself. Not the same as grown ingredients but brewing it would impart some flavour that a replicator wouldn't assuming each replicated item is 100% the same each time. Plus the option for brewing proper alcoholic drinks for those craving more than synthahol.

[@KuraIthys]

@@spamviking Ah, the commander Riker route. 'Yes, I can replicate an omelette, but I'd rather replicate an egg and make it myself.'

[@venkelos6996]

Gold-Pressed Latinum is what Stardates used to be; totally random, arbitrary numbers pulled our of the usual place in the moment. 😊 I'm sort of sad that the proposed reward for saving Quark and Rom's mother, offered by the Grand Nagus, wasn't listed. What's an actual life, maybe your mother, maybe your lover, maybe your business partner you depend on for success, worth? On the other hand, I've never totally gotten the point of Star Trek currency, in a world without money. I want to spend a vacation on Risa. Does Starfleet give me some complimentary GPL? They weren't paying me in it before. What do I need to spend it on? DS9 has businesses, like Quarkxs and Garak's, but anything I want CAN be made for free. Food? Replicator. Dress? Some time in a holodeck with a tailor program, and feed the nesasurenents into the 3D prin...um, replicator. It just seems like either so much stuff should still cost, and thus the Federation hasn't gotten away from money, or anything that does cost should be seen as worse than free, and not still around, for people to choose to pay something for. Latium is also weird; a conveniently impossible to replicate substance, but only valuable because of that. I know gold isn't worth what it is purely for how it can be used, or we wouldn't want quantities of it permanently bound up in electronics, art on display, and the like, but other than as currency, and in places that still choose to charge for things and services where it seems unnecessary, I don't recall latinum having any other uses. Humorously, in STO, GPL is also among the most worthless of the in-gane currencies, because it's good for so little. 😊

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

When you have so much GPL that you bet with it instead of EC, that's when you know the currency system is bloated. Funny to think that the Lobis Quark tried to con Kim into buying in the Voyager premiere are more valuable in-game than GPL, considering you can get rare tech or even ships with them. Precisely because any of the outright "free" ways of acquiring them got phased out years ago.

[@iamzid]

things that can not be replicated easily (such as a star ship or artisan products) or at all (such as a property or territory) would still carry a value and thus require a currency to facilitate an indirect trade.

[@cypherfunc]

Trying to make this make sense is like trying to define the grammar of Syldavian from Tin Tin. It's never going to add up the same way twice, because it's just there for flavor.

[@BossVolt]

Now that you think about it, the price of Quark's actually makes a lot of sense since as we see in the show, it's not just a bar. It is a well-respected and dominant establishment in the busy station of DS9, with an monopoly on station amenities. On top of being a bar, it's also a restaurant and a casino with fully functioning holosuites. Not only that but the bar and casino caters to the quality of their products with stocks of non-replicated, luxury goods. I think a good real-world comparison would be an all-inclusive hotel (minus the rooms obviously) that could cater to all of their customer's needs, with a bar, restaurant, casino and in-house entertainment and amenities, and things like that don't sell cheap

[@foxdavion6865]

Also keep in mind the bar takes up 2 levels and a significant chunk of the shop space on the promenade, has no rent and has free access to amenities though Quark has to pay for energy use. His business does have to pay a trade tax to the Bajoran Government and a Business Tax to the Ferengi Nagus but that is about it. Considering it's location on Deep Space 9 which at that point in time was the gateway to trade in the Delta Quadrant, it was worth a lot. However the worth of the bar shot through the floor to almost worthless when the Dominion cut off trade to the Alpha Quadrant.

[@KelsaRavenlock]

As star fleet is a cashless system I would imagine no one ever once bothered to work out any economic system for the show and the quoted prices are random and meaningless.

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

Pretty much all of Star Trek (indeed all of TV Sci-Fi) is made up as they go. I always believed the whole "no-money" thing was exclusive to Earth alone. Each member world of the Federation, when they joined, still kept their own internal economic system, necessitating the creation of the Federation credit which, much like the Euro, facilitated trade between Federation member worlds.

[@KelsaRavenlock]

@@STSWB5SG1FAN honestly considering how early Star Fleet got replicators compared to many of the cultures they visited, a monetary system couldn't exist within their moral framework as it would lead to a completely lopsided economic system in their favor as they produce goods outside the constraints of available raw materials while also controlling trade routes . The system would completely collapse making the star fleet currency value to high for actual common business exchanges or currency conversions. In order to make it a universal currency system you would need Star Fleet to allow the Federation Government to distribute fully unlocked industrial replicators to all members and that wont happen as it complicates not only the expanded prime directive but destroys star fleet security while removing the codependency between member worlds. By the time Deep Space Nine happened a federation backed star fleet currency would have lead to the collapse of the federation as most of the member worlds would have fallen into deep recessions or the prime Universe would have grown to resemble the mirror universe. With currency Star Fleet becomes the London or East India Company and any remnant of the Federation becomes an unstable imperium. It's the Muslim expansion or English Imperialism on steroids.

[@dannygjk]

In such a world a medium of exchange would still be useful.

[@MartinCHorowitz]

Quarks Bar Price, Location,location,location means everything.

[@Dave-ct1jk]

One problem with this. You're assuming they came up with a standard when they wrote this and didn't just go "X value seems about right"

[@danagray9709]

One of the biggest considerations for Quark's bar is that he paid for exclusive gambling and alcohol sale rights in the station. He wasn't just buying any old bar. Considering how much traffic goes through that station, it's an extremely lucrative investment.

[@TheBodysome]

Thanks for all that research, I found this trying to figure out how much a one man ship would cost in latinum. great stuff keep it up