Echo - ANOTHER Marvelous Mess

[@Rembreiker_lychec9257]

I refuse to believe that Wilson Fisk - a man who learned Mandarin and Japanese in secret just to know what his business associates were saying - opted to not learn ASL for someone he essentially views as a daughter.

[@theinsurance2450]

More believable he just learn all types of languages to cover all bases. Like Batman.

[@firstlast9846]

ABSOLUTELY I said this myself.. this was a man who secretly knew Mandarin and was smart enough to play the fool. He would’ve been up at 5am learning sign IF this was Netflix Daredevil. Honestly I wished he was recast and this was a new Kingpin. They can’t write at Netflix DD’s level.

[@jasonadersonwedion9874]

Stolen comment

[@rodentpete]

I seem to remember him using ASL to talk with her in hawkeye, but I guess the showrunners didn't bother doing there homework.

[@brandocalrissian3294]

I learned asl for a boss I had. It took me 6 months. Not hard. Fisk would have easily learned it.

[@NaiveAgenda]

The idea that Daredevil would run away from a deaf girl is peak Disney. He's down to throwdown with The Punisher, who actively kills all of his opponents, but it's simply all too much when a deaf girl comes into the picture. Amazing, brave story telling for real for real lmfao

[@WallyBChamp]

At first I'm like ehhh maybe he was short on time but you're correct. Cause he mentioned he was staking out that place for quite some time and had time to spare.

[@TrigonAZR]

If you remember that "walk of shame scene from" she hulk it's not really a suprise they can't writte Daredevil I suppose...

[@Daynnikes]

A deaf girl with one leg at that!!! Which he would know before he even initiated the fight

[@gyorgyor7765]

It wasn't that he ran away, its that he realized he'd made his point continueing the fight was pointless.

[@RealPointVPoint]

@@gyorgyor7765Cope

[@kurosenshi3952]

It's hilarious how Hollywood's supposed writers think that a woman that has no emotions, inevitably comes across as a masculine and dangerous girl-boss. While everyone watching it simply sees her as a regular woman with severe emotional baggage and a not-so-happy childhood.

[@jetuber]

The writers are projecting themselves in their characters. The characters are awful people because the writers are awful people.

[@Ytomany]

Its funny that also they couldnt have her lose to Daredevil when he clearly shouldve kicked her ass, dude has one thing and that is he is one of the best fighters in marvel it shouldnt have even been a close fight he drops a shelf on her which leaves her vulnerable then just randomly leaves for no reason, I guess they didnt know how to write their way out of that situation.

[@jetuber]

@@Ytomany It's like Anakin losing to Ahsoka -- a man besting a woman is NOT ALLOWED. It might upset the upside-down hierarchy that the Woke wish to create.

[@NTJedi]

*Logic of Hollywood:* Let's create another television series or movie which has a Mary Sue hero win fights against bigger and stronger men.... again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and .. ..

[@Penelope416]

​@@YtomanyYeah I need to finish watching the Daredevil series.

[@unfilthy]

It's interesting that Bucky, who actually was forced to do evil (and is also an amputee) couldn't simply waive away his feelings of guilt and responsibility for what he'd done, while Echo blames all her actions on other people, and is, what, supposed to be commended for deciding to stop murdering people? Did she even decide to stop, or was she just leveled up in power for choosing to murder different people?

[@None17555]

To be fair, this is not a completed redemption arc. She chose home, mercy, and family instead of returning to her life of crime, but then the show ends. The part of the story where she'd wrestle with her past is still in her future. If Daredevil Reborn ever happens, maybe we'd get some of that.

[@davidpa9266]

One: Vagina. Other: Not vagina.

[@Tj_McQueen]

Women don’t have to take responsibility for their actions because of the patriarchy or something. Typical leftist garbage show.

[@LeeDaTruth001]

I think Black Widow got the best redemption arc in the MCU as a female hero. She was literally a female Assassin, trained to do so, alone, became a "good guy" so to speak, begun not to feel alone, got a new family and tried to make up for her past which made her go back to her old "family" and then she dies in a final sacrifice act for one of her closest friends. Sure The Black widow movie was not great, and it wasn't a perfect ride but what other female anti-hero got a better arc than her in the entire MCU? None, her story is completed upon her death, she literally checked off her full bucket list so to speak. Got a family, was not alone, got friends, helped saved the Universe, redeemed herself, freed other females being brainwashed like she was, helped take down her personal antagonist and patched up old family while releasing herself from her past guilt of who she use to be. They will never produce another female hero or anti-hero turned good that will beat the Black Widow Story arc because they care too much about progressive woke bs and not the story.@@R.P.-hw2rq

[@bujharvard9313]

Well, she's a chick. Chicks are never to blame. Don't you know that?

[@KingKong-fj4dk]

So Disney wrote someone who never takes accountability for their horrible behavior? Shocking.

[@Fuuntag]

Sounds like a Kathleen Kennedy biopic.

[@saintniccage2818]

"I'm done with the Mavel comedy universe.....4 years later he's still saying it"

[@mranderson718]

And a female character, nonetheless

[@EliC09]

So… a woman?

[@mikemike5223]

Never got into marvel and comics. But now that I’ve seen some of these new movies ( bc the gf wanted to go) I’m going to have to watch the older ones.

[@基督教是光和道路]

The fact that she failed to kill someone by shooting them at point blank range in the face, fits this show perfectly.

[@fudouakio4759]

You dont know who the Kingpin is fr

[@thewkovacs316]

it's exactly what happened in the comics

[@BranBal]

Seriously? How did he survive that,@@thewkovacs316 ?

[@kalpeshbhoir7372]

@@thewkovacs316 damn, even the comic was this garbage?

[@duhduh14]

damn no wonder the adaptation is trash as well@@thewkovacs316

[@PlayerOne.StartGame]

Nobody ever wanted an Echo show, they want DareDevil, and they will keep pulling you in using Daredevil. But you will never get that Daredevil again.

[@adityabenwal]

Thats two marvel shows now.. who tried selling themselves on Daredevil and still failed.

[@Sidera17]

I think Echo was supposed to be Daredevil's MSheU replacement character, but it totally didn't work.

[@TrigonAZR]

Nobody wanted hawkeye and even then, they got Kate Bishop. Nobody wants captain falcon movie, just a good captain america movie. Nobody wants "young avengers", just avengers and the list goes on 🤨😑

[@The_Punisher]

​@@Sidera17 Proof?

[@The_Punisher]

Until the Daredevil show?

[@mogamatsedickpetersen8620]

Kimiko in 'The Boys' didn't talk for most of the series and played a large role in the series development. She is a female and mute, but was not side-lined at all, because the character and the actress are just amazing. Not one moment where she tries to communicate or someone communicates with her, slowed the story down. Karen Fukuhara is just phenomenal in that role and all she does is emote, yet everything she wants to say comes across. 'Echo' is definitely one of the shows of all time.

[@venturatheace1]

I'm surprised Drinker didn't mention her as a badass mute character done right

[@mih_chayan8900]

Kimiko never spoke a single word but has apparently has more personality than the entire msheu 😂.

[@mogamatsedickpetersen8620]

@@mih_chayan8900 Haha. So true!

[@healinghands884]

I always fast forward thru her scenes... If I miss something, I don't care... I'm not reading my show...

[@Wiwwia]

@@healinghands884 snowflake

[@carmenphillips6591]

The odd thing is that ASL requires a ton of facial expression along with the actual signs, yet Echo manages to keep that blank expression the entire time.

[@RJALEXANDER777]

In ASL would that count as a speech impediment or an accent?

[@atomf9143]

@@RJALEXANDER777 it'd be more like speaking without any inflection. which is... not great for acting, let's put it that way.

[@Mazra42]

I'm guessing the creators wanted her to be stoic, because that's how Disney women are supposed to be, so they told her not to emote. Unfortunately, the actress has RBF, so instead of looking stoic, she constantly looks like someone off-screen just flipped her off. She smiles a couple of times in the show (damn near fell out of my chair the first time), so she can obviously emote - she was probably just told not to.

[@Tribulatus_Rex]

​@@atomf9143Flat Affect...it's a diagnostic feature of Schizophrenia and other dissociative disorders. Basically someone who is disconnected from reality.

[@TheChampagnebubble]

Instead of making her look tough, it makes her look wooden.

[@NewAgeSamurai]

I keep thinking about how awesome it would be for Echo and Daredevil to team up. She can't hear him speak, he can't see her sign. It's a comedy gold mine right there.

[@Steve_Kassiotis]

See no evil, hear no evil was a great movie. I don't want woke Disney to ruin that too.

[@mikemalott9769]

​@@Steve_Kassiotis Was just gonna put that. That was a amazing movie

[@DomtheWise314]

This plays out really well in the comics, and they have great chemistry together

[@Allie-w1l]

Their team also needs a mute who can see and hear both of them, but can't speak up and say anything.

[@megkrish7568]

No but daredevil can uhh, hear her sign language with the minute sounds her hands would make lol.

[@boxerspause]

For the love of God can someone please tell Disney, demeaning great male characters and throwing in talentless girl bosses will NEVER work!

[@MisterCovek]

This is what you get when you get diversity hires and ai to write a script for you.

[@mmorland5994]

If they haven't figured it out yet, then they aren't going to.

[@MarctheDarc]

I think a couple million people did, hence all the shrieking and whimpering about "toxic fans". But they didn't get to where they are, by listening to pesky things like facts or reality, so they're not about to start now.

[@emilm8603]

"Put a chick in it, and make it lame."

[@ribeye5394]

that is not the problem with series. Jez, you all obsessed about characters gender. Jus different identity politics.

[@Red0543]

Anyone else remember the episode “World on fire” from the Daredevil Netflix show? How it perfectly balanced grim, gritty action with doing some serious character and world building? We got to see Wilson Fisk go on a date with Vanessa (in a series of scenes that veered between genuinely heartwarming to feeling ominous and then back again seamlessly), we got to see Foggy and Karen going above and beyond to help out an elderly client before she arranges a dinner date for them, we got to see Matt continue to take on the Russian Mafia and be genuinely shocked when they think that he killed one of their leaders. All the while said leader’s brother arms his entire organisation to go to war against Fisk. All of which culminates in a literally explosive finish and the world as they all know it irrevocably changes forever. So, am I talking about all of this? I hear you ask. No reason, other than to remind you all of what a genuinely good Marvel TV show looks like. Because Echo sure as all hell isn’t it.

[@beksc9209]

Daredevil is the best TV show I have seen, hands down!

[@Synthetic-Rabbit]

Her facial expression never changes.... I mean, you'd think with a character that doesn't speak... you'd want their face and eyes to be pretty expressive.

[@Noodles.Doodles]

She was cast with no prior acting experience, as she mentions in an interview on Nerdrotic's video on Echo. Her... other qualities were sufficient.

[@clogs4956]

I have a profoundly deaf friend. When she’s not wearing her hearing aids, she tends to maintain a neutral expression until someone engages her attention. I’ve only seen clips of ‘Echo’ but I guess the actress, not receiving verbal prompts, maintains her neutral face except where she’s been coached.

[@beksc9209]

​@clogs4956 Even when engaging with other people, tho? Because in all these clips, Maya's face pretty much looked the same even if she was discussing something with someone or fighting someone. I haven't gotten to know any d/Deaf people, sadly, but I studied ASL in high school and have watched a little interpreting. From what I remember, Deaf tend to be very expressive when signing because their body language and mouth morphemes add tone and emphasis where their voices cannot.

[@Maesterful]

That requires effort

[@danielwarne6199]

yeah reminds me of prey and the lead actress from that, same expression through the entire run time.

[@nella544]

The plot holes write themselves. Why would Kingpin, who was previously shown to learn Japanese and Mandarin in his own time to understand his agent's secret chats, not learn his daughter's native language.

[@THEINFINITIVERSESAGA]

I’m pretty sure she’s only speaking sign language

[@WallyBChamp]

Thank you. Especially at a young age that he took her in.

[@gus4u2c]

Good point

[@eyespy3001]

@@THEINFINITIVERSESAGAIt’s funny how something so obvious goes over the head of so many. I mean, even your comment, which is sitting at the top of the other replies, where everyone can read it, is going over the heads of everyone. I guess that’s the result of manufactured outrage: blindness and willful ignorance.

[@SubZero-hs9xc]

Yeah

[@MarklovesAngels]

I'm beginning to believe Disney DOES have a chart for its writers and it really does include, "a man can never overpower a woman nor gain the final upper hand in a discussion." When I first heard it from a Hollywood insider working on their animated shows, I was skeptical. Now???

[@Disciple550]

I definitely believe that lol

[@gammafrost]

I’m convinced if avengers 5 and the secret wars films flop that they will completely scrap everything and put marvel on a hiatus. They don’t care about quality anymore.

[@theberserker_of_falconia]

Blame the jews

[@Noname15514]

I notice how not a lot of people are not pointing out the fact that the actress has been miscast. The comic book version looks like a 10 whereas the actress looks like a 5.

[@billjacobs521]

@@Noname15514 Meh, every comic book woman looks like a 10, unless she's supposed to be some horrific science experiment or 80-years-old.

[@kennyoconnor6564]

Writing drama actually requires intelligence, empathy, and talent. Not narcissistic sociopaths who have no awareness.

[@khhv1900]

We are talking about a woman in here, she is empowered by today's standards, not a psycho

[@suryavarmakandasamy6969]

😂. No offense. Just love this guy way of explaining.

[@suryavarmakandasamy6969]

@@khhv1900 I respect to women but great writing will make them more well known.

[@namkia205]

​@@khhv1900Women can be dark triad and most of them are disgusting lol

[@gokux75]

The only drama these writers have experienced is someone using the wrong pronouns lol.

[@JKimPersonal]

Can we say our warnings fell into an…. Echo Chamber? I’ll see myself out.

[@beowulfsrevenge4369]

It was definitely a gamble on Disney's part that may lead to a long, sad trail of reviews to cry over.

[@codedk8778]

No, no, stay that was a good one

[@harryv6752]

😄😄😄

[@righthandwolf306]

Try the veal!!

[@AnnoyingAssassin]

Is that what her equivalent of a Bat Cave is?

[@A.Radwick]

They really destroyed Kingpin. He was beaten by a teenaged, Great Value brand, female Hawkeye in a totally fair 1v1, and now this? They're trying to make Kingpin into Team Rocket, showing up everywhere so they can get embarrassed for us to all laugh at. Jesus guys. Have a little respect for the villains or you'll just run out of them, and God knows you aren't skilled enough to write up a new one.

[@YouMissedBro]

Meanwhile he fucking manhandled The Punisher in that prison scene. He could have beat him to death if he wanted, but instead gets girl-bossed in another show....twice

[@cmccorquodale2003]

Well Kate has bombs literal bombs and he got hit by a car. Everyone else was hand to hand obviously she gonna fair better she has weapons and did I mentioned BOMBS. I understand the annoyance but fans never seem to actually see what is occurring.😊

[@socks2441]

haha, team rocket. that is a really good example.

[@Lord_necromancer]

Unfortunately for the kingpin, he was born with the wrong set of chromosomes to be capable of defeating any woman ever 😢 he can only overpower the male heroes.

[@CarterNewton-j5o]

@@cmccorquodale2003 I don't think you understand who- no, no, WHAT Kingpin is

[@Jonathan_Collins]

Frankly I find myself offended for other people's sake that a series about a deaf girl wasn't directed or produced by deaf people. Truly more HEARING PRIVILEGE!

[@CEWIII9873]

Quite the quiet riot

[@LordofSadFac]

Yeah, its an outrage that such an important show felt on deaf ears of bullshit producers instead of the deaf ears that should have directed, edited and acted the show as it should have.

[@elliotphillips4942]

I would say they wouldn't get much done but it seems that way without deaf people running it

[@steprockmedia]

Legit bravo to them for having an actual deaf and amputee actress in the role. It's a role nobody was interested in seeing with a plot that nobody wants to watch, but they DID stay true to casting choices...which is about all they care about it seems.

[@LISTINGTOSTARBOARD]

STOP PAYING FOR ENTERTAINMENT

[@lordsinister707]

So basically our protagonist exhibits every trait that will be considered toxic in a man but is celebrating in a woman. That's modern day Marvel

[@eugeniamarch]

the marvels and wakanda forever celebrated women. which toxic traits did they have? or maybe here's a hypothesis - marvel fails to hire actual good writers half the time

[@man-thing5567]

The ultimate cringe for me was the monster truck at the end smashing the well armed hit men. That was like a grade schooler writing an essay and saying “and then a big monster truck comes in and kills all the bad guys”.

[@rivetRnC]

Yeah it's literally like a teen wrote this shite

[@brucelee1048]

Mybe truck kun sent them to another world

[@alexanderwinters3891]

😆

[@inendlesspain4724]

@@brucelee1048 Imagine an isekai about a whole group of hitmen or mercenaries being sent to an alternate fantasy world.

[@netriosilver]

oh gosh i didn't even realize, i was so out of it by that point

[@MirandaSinistra]

The biggest insult to me was them changing her powers from the comics. The show runner thought being able to copy people's moves was a lame superpower, so she decided to make it Echo even lamer by giving her the ability to 'echo back to her ancestors.' Whatever the fck that means.

[@RJALEXANDER777]

Isn't that Taskaster's power however? Echo has the same one in the comics?

[@SasamiTM]

What bothers me is the fact that they defaulted to just about the most stereotypical power to give a Native American character outside of animal spirits or something

[@jreese2474]

Even that has some potential. What skills were common 100 years or so ago that nobody has anymore? It could be terribly situational but as long as you have some good writers I don't see why..... oh..... right.... sorry.

[@stevenscott2718]

@@jreese2474 yep imagine "shit i'm trapped in the wilderness and going to die of exposure... I know i'll channel [Shitty so on the nose name its racist], it was said he could start a fire at the bottom of the sea." Or "fuck i've lost my target i'll channel [Shitty so on the nose name its racist #2] it was said she could track a deer across stone after a snowfall"

[@mikcnmvedmsfonoteka]

When I read what powers Echo has I thought it was a pretty cool power! Then, oh no we are not doing that on TV show because it sounds lame - what !? I never read Hilk or SHe-Hulk comics but if they just made first season copying comics and adding some new elements maybe it could have attracted new fans and old fans but yeah its NuMarvel, NuDisney woke bs.....

[@Eva01-jy2qu7pu9r]

The fact that Daredevil has been treated this badly in two Disney + shows makes me infuriated beyond belief

[@makatron]

He went from top dog under Netflix, to basically a tier 4 sidekick for the awful Disney+ shows.

[@GHOSTSTALKER90]

How hard would it have been to bring the whole writing team back together and just let them do their thing .... would have made a tonne of cash

[@makatron]

@@GHOSTSTALKER90 Disney wants to put propaganda before story quality.

[@daurydavis3983]

No he hasn't

[@Eva01-jy2qu7pu9r]

@@daurydavis3983 Yes he has. Probably haven't been watching

[@barryrodges2095]

This quote from Alaque Cox speaks volumes: "I don't know why they're giving me this opportunity, but I'm just grateful. I'm excited for the support and being able to advocate for the Deaf community. We want to have that equality and get more people involved. I'm just so grateful for all of the opportunities I've been given." Her IMDB page lists this show & Hawkeye as her only acting roles. She wasn't chosen for her acting chops & it seems even she may be a bit suspicious about it...

[@vijayshetty4494]

It seems like entire Marvel is running on diversity hires

[@peteinthedesert7082]

Marlee Matlin (who is deaf) won an Oscar in "Children Of A Lesser God" (1986). She played Sarah, an angry, tortured, complicated young woman who struggles with trusting anyone, especially men. The "climax" of the movie is when, after being prodded throughout the movie to just "try" to speak by her lover, she screeches an ugly but absolutely genuine noise. Absolutely gripping scene. Scene says a lot of why Sarah "chose" her silence, and is tormented by not only her handicap, but her decisions in life. Now we have Echo,... where we see an uninteresting plot, listen to all the crappy lines, see all the hand language, witness pitiful and pathetic fight scenes, ...yet don't "hear" anything of substance, nor any regret for all the poor decisions Echo made in her past.

[@carlrood4457]

I was going to bring her up as an excellent deaf actress. She even had TV series, Reasonable Doubts, with Mark Harmon. It was a fairly typical police procedural wit the hook that the DA was deaf and Harmon was the detective assigned to work with her because he could sign. It had the typical underlying sexual tension between the leads and was fairly decent, mainly because Matlin and Harmon had chemistry and both have a natural charm.

[@jelita_]

​@@carlrood4457 that's the title of the show. I remember having watched a show of her as a DA.

[@None17555]

She did MUCH better in this show than she's being given credit. Her style may have just been lost in the noise. She does a brilliant job of portraying someone who is stoic but slipping. She shows a ton with twitches in her face and shifting in her eyes. She also does a great job of interacting as a deaf person would (I realize she is deaf, but she knows the script/scenes). The problem with this show is obviously a budget/rewrite/rushed before strikes/last project before rearranging D+. The first three episodes were far above average for MCU D+, and the last two were far below. The last episode has a rushed climax and a short run time. That cannot have been on purpose.

[@peteinthedesert7082]

@@None17555 🤣🤣🤣 good cover! More likely she clicks all the boxes: woman, deaf, indigenous, body-positive, and an amputee. They definitely didn’t hire her for her “brilliant stoic acting abilities.” 🤪

[@peteinthedesert7082]

BTW: I’ve got nothing against Alaqua Cox. She seems genuine and humble. She knows she literally hit the lottery with “Echo”. (“Hawkeye” was her very first acting role), so she’s not bad, but vastly inexperienced on the set and in front of a camera. Compare with deaf actress Marlee Matlin, who was a child actor, and as an adult, worked for years in Chicago theater scene before landing her big role.

[@GoodHunter9]

I just wanna point out that Kimiko in The Boys does a fine job of showing a wide range of emotions without muttering a peep.

[@mrrodriguezHLP]

Kimiko in the Boys, and Gazelle in Kingsman. Echo isn't all that groundbreaking.

[@IamAmygdala]

Kimiko might me one of the best "strong female characters" we have gotten in recent times (and Kim Wexler). The last good female character from Marvel was Black Widow, actually she might be the ONLY good female character in the entirety of Marvel ... i might be forgetting someone

[@jameslauder3984]

@@IamAmygdaladon’t forget Peggy Carter.

[@GoodHunter9]

The problem with Marvel girls is that they started introducing more of them long after they stopped trying. @@IamAmygdala

[@DefineHatespeech]

Kimiko is the real deal that fans legit liked. This half-assed chunky gormless bland faced fraud that can’t even emote is a joke.

[@paulsnyc]

Drinker ... this is by far one of your best reviews. You not only break down what was wrong with the series but also give possibilities of how it could have been a success. You pointed out something that I noticed early on in this mess : Disney MCU seems to hire vacuous actresses, or once they get a hold of prior actresses, they act vacuous.

[@Kiwibirdman1701]

He also saved me 5 hours

[@DrMantisToboggan2005]

As a Native American, I cringe every time I see a new movie with a lead Native American character. Modern Hollywood loves race baiting like this and Native Americans seem to be in vogue right now. The trope that we are all misunderstood Res Dogs is embarrassing and belittling. I live in the the 21st century and just because I’m a Native doesn’t mean I had it tougher than my white neighbors, nor does it mean you should automatically feel bad for me because of my race. Disney, it is possible to have a Native character and not mention it every 10 minutes which is what this show looks like.

[@EvilDoresh]

I fear they'd probably think "Why should I include a Native character if I _don't_ remind the audience that the character is Native every chance I get?"

[@adamrose524]

With what you say about how Hollywood treats Native Americans, I’m definitely interested to hear your perspective on the movies Killers of the Flower Moon (2023), Hostiles (2017), and Wind River (2017), that is, if you’ve seen any of them of course (I have no agenda or stake in the game, I just really enjoy those movies and would be curious to hear your thoughts)

[@keeponscrolling9309]

What reservation are you from

[@timetobargeinandgivemyopin7260]

You're sounding anti semitic man, careful who you say that to and stay safe

[@davidpa9266]

No, Didney wants you to howl at the moon, throw a tomahawk, get your bow and arrow confiscated at the airport, and scalp someone. How do you think Native Americans act? What, like actual humans? Uh, ok, fine.

[@Aikurisu]

My condolences to the Native Americans for having this show related to them even in the slightest. But what do you expect from Disney's tone deaf efforts...

[@CEWIII9873]

wouldn't Indians derive their powers from a bottle of Thunderbird anyway?

[@defeqel6537]

No condolences. This is the best Native American culture can provide to "enhance" modern culture, until they prove otherwise, until they demand better from the studios.

[@kyskys.]

they literally approved the script 💀

[@CEWIII9873]

@@kyskys. they would approve anything for enough firewater and plague blankets...

[@LISTINGTOSTARBOARD]

STOP PAYING FOR ENTERTAINMENT

[@ares_bluesteel]

I fully believe it’s in the Marvel acting contracts that all female protagonists have to have the same smug or blank expression at all times. A huge part of acting is facial expressions, and if your actress constantly has the same smug expression then it comes off as having no emotional range at all, it doesn’t make them look like badass girl boss as I’m sure that’s what they’re going for. From what I know about deaf communication and ASL, signing with a blank expression is the equivalent of talking like a robot.

[@markclips09]

True facial expressions are important. Think of breaking bad Bryan cranston

[@tubensalat1453]

Just as a thrown in aside, I saw one Spiderman movie and I hated it, and I specifically hated that one dumb face Maguire put on the whole time.

[@johnenigma8506]

The sad part about this is that a story about a deaf protagonist can work in an action setting. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance is a great example of this.

[@Brandon-dy8us]

Or Hush. That movie was wild. Sympathy for Mr vengeance and all the other movies surrounding it were actually kinda boring. One of the lesser Asian movie series for sure.

[@APS_Inc]

Honestly the biggest joke in modern Disney is that any of their shows are remotely family friendly.

[@TheAnubis57]

Yes --Why is Disney getting involved in violent laden shows. It sad to see it moving away from family friendly entertainment into another dark, mean spirited woke studio.

[@khhv1900]

They are modern family friendly, as in a family composed of 2 persons of same gender and kids that are not their own. This is the average sadly and they know their market all too well.

[@oshawott4544]

It feels like a fake kind of family friendly content, completely misunderstanding what it means to be appropriate for all ages. There's a reason WALL-E is more family friendly than John Wick, and Disney doesn't understand that no amount of stuff like removing blood and swears will make John Wick appropriate for children. All it'll do is drive away the true audience for the movie.

[@APS_Inc]

​@@oshawott4544Honestly I'd say John Wick is more family friendly than Echo, because it understands what good and evil are, and how friends and enemies work. Violence is not family friendly, to be sure, but there are still acceptable levels of violence (I doubt anyone would call the 1930s or 70s Robin Hood too violent for most children over 7). But modern Disney does not have morals, they don't understand good and evil, and they almost intentionally waffle about with both messaging and ethics. It's a postmodernist's dream company, but that's the primary thing that makes it not family friendly. The farce of trying to force round pegs into square holes (that is, forcing everything under Disney to be "family-friendly") when they used to understand distinctions (which is why Touchstone and Buena Vista used to be a thing) is just the icing on the cake, rather than the actual truth of their issues.

[@MagcargoMan]

​@@APS_Inc Lol, John Wick, the franchise that wants us to feel bad for a career killer just because he fell in love and got out of the life for that (and not out of any remorse for what he's done), knows the difference between good and evil.

[@TheMC1102]

People tried to warn Marvel that this show would fail, but they were like "Nah, it'll be fine".

[@dannod9961]

Tbh it was just …. Fine

[@jasonadersonwedion9874]

These reviews are more entertaining than anything Disney has produced since endgame 😊

[@proximoparadox5669]

I dont even watch the drinker but damn do I agree

[@tallulahbeaverhausen4382]

It saddens me to see Vincent d'Onofrio in these turds. This guy is such a great actor, he deserves SO much better...

[@CEWIII9873]

meh I am sure he gets paid well I mean, let's be frank: if Disney came to my door with a dump truck full of money, I would be the biggest Disney wh0re ever

[@corb5654]

Nope, he never was a great actor.

[@Jadty]

@@corb5654You never watched Full Metal Jacket, did you?

[@broodingnights1515]

lol ok @@corb5654

[@joeyservo]

​@@Jadty Sounds like we have our own Private Pyle on our hands here.

[@caps_lock_]

I'm not in the Marvel fandom but as a man that is gay and ''of colour'' who loves Tolkien's work, I was furious at what Amazon did with the Rings of Power. Never once in all my years of being a fan of his did I question why their isn't brown skinned and/or gay people in it. Instead what I did do was relate to the actual personalities and experiences of the characters,....their triumphs, tragedies, motives, convictions, hopes, despair, courage, relationships, and how they responded and dealt with all these things. For the studios to reduce these stories down to skin colour, sexuality, body type etc is not only an insult to both the original creators and the audience, it results in crappy stories. I'm so damn sick of it!

[@magicman9218]

soon every character on every show will be a paraplegic black lesbian

[@booneh]

Man, David Mack’s original take on Echo in his Daredevil run was so cool and interesting. You got into her head in such a visually arresting way that would have made for a mindblowing TV show. It was beautiful. This looks like dreck.

[@mericastrata]

Kudos to D'Onofrio and CC for sticking around for the fans in what is clearly an uphill battle to maintain the integrity of the successful entertaining show they helped create. Sadly Henson, Woll and the rest of the cast and creators Disney effed over are probably better off.

[@cowboydan507]

I thought I recognized that guy

[@LunaticFringeReviews]

That TV-MA rating and trailer with Daredevil almost fooled me into thinking Marvel was bringing the tough, gritty vibe back...but then I remembered that it's Disney Marvel, not Netflix Marvel. There's no chance that this show was gonna capture that like Daredevil or the other Netflix shows did. Such a boring, disappointing mess...another Disney disaster

[@fwabble]

In my opinion this is very on point, there's too many folk hired for all the wrong reasons these days, somewhere there's a truly gifted and talanted heterosexual white male in his 40's who grew up reading the comics and has a true passion and understanding of the MCU and all it's characters, who's flown under the radar for all these years, but finally took a shot at going for his dream job writing for marvel! - but he did not get the job, they hired some one else, and he is instead now sitting in a bar drinking himself to death thinking how stupid he was to think he was EVER good enough! He may never try again, and thus the future is now altered, and his incredible gifts, replaced with bare uninterested ill-informed competence. The regression of art, engineering, science and medicine, and even fkn PILOTING PLANES now... is well under way.

[@kids.cats.crazy.]

I’m still sad they canceled the Netflix Marvel shows. They were so well-done and had so much potential. Disney has totally trashed the remnants of those shows and it’s very disappointing.

[@Resonosity]

The entirely of Marvel (Marvel Entertainment, LLC) has been under Disney since the acquisition in 2009. Marvel TV (Marvel Television, Inc.) was a separate subsidiary under Marvel Studios (Marvel Studios, LLC) - which was also under Marvel Entertainment - until 2015 when Disney absorbed Marvel Studios to be a division of that company. Marvel TV stayed a subsidiary under Marvel Entertainment, so creative authority was still far away from the Netflix stuff. Then in 2017/2018 Marvel Studios perked up at the idea of Disney+ and the money in TV, so they (Kevin Feige) started developing "second-tier" shows like Loki and Scarlett Witch. Every show was supposed to have the budget of single movies, and Feige was going to be there to be "hands-on" in production - despite *never* having television experience leading up to then. This is compared to the (11) Netflix shows which all had a combined budget of $200,000,000 - DD S1-3, JJ S1-3, LC S1-2, IF S1-2, and TD S1. The Punisher was picked up outside of this deal. All of these shows had television talent, and Isaac Perlmutter remained in majority control of the development. Then in 2019, Feige was made Chief Creative Office for Marvel, and Marvel TV (and Marvel Family Entertainment) were absorbed under Marvel Studios, which was again a division of Disney. No separation of creative authority. What Disney wants, Disney gets. What Marvel Studios wants, Feige gets. *THIS* is where I think things started falling apart. You have Kevin Feige leading Family content, Mature/Adult content, and Mass Appeal content with movies all at the same time. It isn't a stretch to think that business models were adjusted to try to capture new, emerging, and profitable markets with all of the prestige whose shoulders Marvel was resting on. 2019/2018/2017 was the beginning of the end. It was such a good time in Marvel TV entertainment. Sadly, I don't know if we'll ever get back to that. Sources: Wikipedia for Marvel Entertainment, Marvel Studios, Marvel Television, Walt Disney Studios

[@flyingpaladin617]

Drinker: "It's almost like our warnings fall on deaf ears." I saw what you did there

[@owenmcdonald8342]

Vincent D'onofrio as Wilson Fisk in the Netflix Daredevil has to be one of my favorite villains of all time. - Brilliant acting with the actor allowed creative freedom to show what he could do with the role - Haunted by his past; he's evil, yet you also feel empathy for his sad and relatable childhood - Borderline Personality, OCD, and Psychopathic - Extremely intelligent - Ruthlessly seeks power - Physically large, powerful, and menacing. Able to throw his opponents around like they're ragdolls - His obessive love for Vanessa, but it is also his biggest weakness. Something a lot of men can relate to. - Any time he's on screen, the audience is on the edge of their seats; unsure if he's about to suddenly blow up and cave another person's skull in. In Netflix Daredevil Season 3, they ended his story in a satisfying way, strongly suggesting he was going to prison for the rest of his life having corrupted the FBI. In Hawkeye he's kinda just there. There's no big buildup to his reveal. He kinda suddenly shows up when it's convenient for the plot, and we're expected to believe he was pulling the strings the whole time. When he is on screen, he doesn't do much except talk, wear hawiian shirts, and get shot in the face (Which is apparently only a minor inconvenience). In Echo, he's a bumbling idiot with none of the special sauce that made him amazing in Netflix Daredevil. There was no reason to include him as the villain in either show and they shouldn't have. He's might as well have been named Steve. He's effectively a different character played by the same actor.

[@Thomasmemoryscentral]

You think Kevin Feige saying Netflix Daredevil is canon to the failing MCU true because i see it as him leeching off other quality not managed under him

[@Eternaldarkness3166]

I want to see just a Kingpin series with him in it, that'd be amazing

[@keithpace9870]

Not when Kingpin is neutered to go from his identity being hidden and pulling strings in Netflix and a guy or guys being scared to talk of the Kingpin and a guy having his head smashed by a car door to getting his butt handed to him and no real consequences for Maya. Had they told a story of strong implications/consequences for Maya for all her past deeds working for the Kingpin and kept her abilities the same as the comics and have good choreographed fight scenes and maybe have Kingpin find a way to somehow enhance his strength. If he ends up being in the next Spider-man movie unless he gets a lot more tough and intimidating I feel like Spider-man just going to man handle him in seconds.

[@owenmcdonald8342]

@@Eternaldarkness3166 My understanding was they had a script ready for a seson 4 before Disney pulled out of Netflix and got cancelled. It's such a shame we never got to see it.

[@JoakimOtamaa]

​@@keithpace9870 Nah, Spidey would have a difficult fight because he's not a strong woman, just like MJ in the new game.

[@glennwatson3313]

Its almost like Disney is trying to destroy what Netflix did.

[@firstlast9846]

I’ve noticed the MCU just lazily absorbing projects which were better written lately. Daredevil, Fox X men. It’s easier than making their own and making us care about them. Cos they know their current roster is ASS.

[@joeyservo]

They've been destroying every other beloved property they've been able to get their greedy hands on, so why should this be any different.

[@BirdsElopeWithTheSun09]

No, they're just using what the Netflix shows did in order to prop up their new characters.

[@T-Bone_SSteak]

You mean everything they own?

[@easygrin1127]

​@@firstlast9846im sorry but Xmen was no better written. Fox Xmen were never really any good and like Marvel they just became worse and worse. But never really had a single movie where it was great... Marvel atleast had some good ones a few dosen movies ago. Some great ones even.

[@liamwilko9285]

I used to be a huge Marvel fan. I happily kept up with it, got excited about it and enjoyed speculating about what was going to happen next.. yet with this show I simply didn’t know it was coming out or even existed. Simply couldn't care less anymore! Its insane how inept Disney have become especially with the money they have..

[@Markfr0mCanada]

Talent makes money, but money errodes talent.

[@deangelisdata]

there's a snake in ma boot

[@Habu12]

Same. Like many others, I've retreated to the core stories before all this madness. If I want to see a character I love, like Wolverine, it create it. Draw or print a model of him and paint it. It's a creative outlet and it keeps the original vision alive in my line of sight.

[@frankyin9203]

I think the most disgusting part of the show for me is that they put all those violence, dark, crime elements in the trailors and keep trying to tell you this is a netflix daredevil style show, but it turned out to be another trash movie full of old school "family" stuff with boring stories and weak emotion connection, just like those trash movies they made after Endgame. And it become even worse with all these meaningless bloody scenes, they are just like putting a cheating plot from porn into a love story. Marvel studio lie to us again.

[@ScrambledAndBenedict]

Same. I am just completely and utterly Marveled out at this point. You know what it's like to me? It's like a video game, where you finished the main game and the end boss was Endgame. Now, the story is over, the game is done, you've moved on, and yet DLC keeps coming out that you're just not interested in. Even when it manages to be well done, maybe when it piques your interest, you just don't really care anymore since you're just done with the game. That make sense?

[@coffeecrusader4863]

Drinker genuinely laughing at his own Queenpin joke is one of the greatest things ive heard all week

[@undsowei1erundsofor1]

Now here is the real punchline. Drinker didn't come up with that "joke". It's in the show.

[@coffeecrusader4863]

@@undsowei1erundsofor1 oh no way! It's parody now

[@Cousin_Uli]

Kingpin surviving a bullet to the head out of sheer force of "too big, too pissed to die" is in character for him for the most part. Shame such a power move from that character is stuck in junk like this.

[@TrigonAZR]

Maybe in the comics, but wasn't this supposed to be "gritty and grounded?" Also, those disney writters love showing people surviving fatal wounds. They did it in Rise of Palpatine, Kenobi and Ashoka (twice).🤷‍♂️

[@timparks9833]

This scene happened in the comics, but it was stupid there too. I don’t see why they would make the gritty more realistic show have a normal, albeit large, guy survive gun shots to the eye. Where did the bullet go? I guess she could have angled the bullet so it just hits his eye and doesn’t penetrate any further. This has happened surprisingly a lot for veterans, but why wouldn’t she have killed him? Why would she just make an enemy out of him? If those questions can’t be answered, then it shouldn’t have happened. Maybe those answers exist, but I’m not about to actually watch this show to find out. Lol

[@firstlast9846]

*If Daredevil is canon* how they gonna explain a guy who’s been ran out of New York TWICE after killing police officers - to get back in the public’s good books to get into office of being the mayor??

[@UnoriginallyChrisLPs]

Any story beat can work. You only need a good, passionate writer to do it. Seems like Disney has been missing both those factors for a decade

[@jonathansoko1085]

Theres no way someones getting shot in the eye without dying or reciving MAJOR brain damage. If this was a superhuman, a luke cage or someone that can have powers explain why they live........ That makes sense but KP is just an evil man. And disney is literally turning KP into trump if they continue with the end credits scene. Thats all i got from this, KP is now donald trump.

[@BeeLockinYorDoor]

Echo's expression looks like she discovered that her farts were actually audible

[@KnuckleHunkybuck]

Lol, this comment seems to understand more about deaf culture than the writers of Echo.

[@harunkarali720]

They could have at least left Daredevil out of this mess. That character deserves better than Disney+

[@idiotsplayinggames4752]

What exactly did they do to him?

[@martin_sery]

​@@idiotsplayinggames4752 Nothing really, they showed him in a flashback where he had a brief fight scene with Echo in his original red suit and that was it.

[@idiotsplayinggames4752]

@@martin_sery oh thank god.

[@theengineerfiles5885]

Nooo, Charlie! You’re too pure for the superhero industry!

[@The_Punisher]

He's in it for like a minute relax

[@theendistheend123]

I'm glad you summed up the plot, because I just finished it and I have NO IDEA what it was about.

[@Etx-z9.]

Tone deaf is the PERFECT way to describe this show. Like this show wants you to root for Echo (because she's indigenous, deaf, and disabled), but comes off a character the viewer is meant to despise. A villain to say the least. Also, why does Echo look like an out of shape Butch angry lesbian NPC from Starfield?

[@theunknowncommenter725]

She's BORING

[@jessekoepp3928]

To mirror the "writers" lol. Cause as well know, if enough ugly af women claim beauty is bad and ugly is "good", that will somehow magically make upside down right side up, somehow......magically.......eventually.....somehow.......or else!

[@fudouakio4759]

So you only dont like her cause you find that shes not attractive? Shes an anti-hero, clearly. Villains being the protagonist dont stop us understanding the character

[@caylya7869]

That’s not how she looks like at all? That’s how some native Americans look bruv. Her looks isn’t the problem of the show. That’s a you problem that you need to get checked on.

[@Tahmaysu]

@@fudouakio4759 Hardly an anti-hero. Her entire motivation is to take over Kingpin's criminal empire at the cost of putting her relatives in danger. The issue is that makes her unlikable.

[@SH1KAKAA]

I love that the drinker added an echo effect to "nah, it'll be fine" 😂

[@davidsummer8631]

One of the worst visual experiences is having to watch a stuntman carry the star of a film or show

[@Ytomany]

Fr you notice how daredevil just kinda randomly stops hitting her at times to let her hit him.

[@brentwaid4397]

Something you said about shooting the whole thing in silence for echoo’s prospective made me think of a walking dead episode they did with the dead character on there. The parts of the episode they did in silence made the horror elements seem even scarier and was a really cool thing they did.

[@JustMatt91]

I didn't know much about the character so I went online and read into her story and stuff, and damn man the stuff I was reading got me interested. Like how in the comics she has photogenic reflexes and so by watching people she's able to copy their movements and that's how she's able to do things like fight and handle weapons and be as accurate as Bullseye and how she can read lips from distances, like that shit sounds awesome, where's that character at??? Instead we get bland boring girl-boss #1000 who just knows things and lacks any personality and was clearly made to check a box off the old list.

[@kicknowledgesmith8608]

Yup but the show runner said that her abilities in the comics are lame. These people at Marvel are delusional.

[@kevindavis5966]

@@kicknowledgesmith8608 My guess is the writers didn't want her to have to rely on facing someone superior in order for her to do well, which is what her power would imply. She has to be better than the men from the get-go, not get better because she copies men with superior skills. Plus, simply copying somone's skills who is physically bigger and stronger than you and still winning wouldn't make sense to even the most feminist of their viewers.

[@kicknowledgesmith8608]

@@kevindavis5966 yup good points, also this show relied on popular male characters to sell to it. No one had any interest until the trailer showed Kingpin punching a man, they made it seem like it would be as dark as Daredevil Netflix. I have 0 faith in the Daredevil Born Again series.

[@sharifrancis9826]

Let me get this straight. They changed her abilities from mimicking people's movements, from just seeing them, to mimicking the abilities of dead people? And apparently this was an improvement, because her original abilities were lame.

[@flaviomonteiro1414]

​@@R.P.-hw2rqThis would be a better show 😂

[@User.665]

I'm not familiar with echo but wasn't that taskmasters gimmick?

[@Mr.BednaR]

Soooo... a female taskmaster?

[@jdunnatl]

​@@User.665Yup. Taskmaster in the comics is also male, go figure 😅, and is a better character. They neutered him entirely.

[@User.665]

@@jdunnatl I'm so out the loop with comic stuff now I thought I was being stupid but it looks like I'm not missing much

[@blinkonceonsunday1325]

What I think is funny is the fact that the show leaned so much into the wokeness that they literally made "being native American" her super power. In the comic stories, she just had powers to mimic other peoples' skills and fighting styles. As for missed opportunities, she apparently has a friend who has a supernatural affinity to work with machines and technology. With Marvel planning to introduce the X-Men soon, why didn't they use this idea to introduce the mutant Forge, who also happens to have a prosthetic leg and is native American? (He was Cheyenne according to Marvel lore.) Forge was also a love interest of Storm for a while, so that could play into a future X-Men film. It's a bit ironic that Disney is trying so hard to make the MCU diverse, considering the fact that diversity has been baked into X-Men since 1975. Why did they wait so long to add X-Men to the MCU? The X-Men is the most diverse super team ever created for comics.

[@Ingel_Riday6690]

I think you're forgetting who owned the rights to X-Men for the first 11 years of the MCU (2008 to 2019). Specifically, a debt-ridden and half-dead Marvel had sold the rights to X-Men to 21st Century Fox back in the 1990s. Disney buying Marvel in 2009 didn't cancel said agreement, so Disney didn't get the rights to X-Men. Oh, they had the rights to the comics... but not the movies or games. You know, the big ticket items. When Disney used a mountain of debt-financing to buy 21st Century Fox in 2019, they finally got X-Men and started planning movies and tv shows for the franchise. But Disney then had to deal with lockdowns, actor strikes, writer strikes, and so on. Bunch of delays. Don't worry though, you'll see the House of Mouse utterly ruin X-Men this decade. Nothing is stopping them now. They're primed for pure awful to commence.

[@louisduarte8763]

So wait, in this show, Echo doesn't copy (or "echo") the fighting styles of her opponents? Then why is she called "Echo"?

[@calebleach7988]

@louisduarte8763 Because her ancestors “echo” through her… I think… idk it wasn’t very clear.

[@fcon2123]

So you're telling me she's just Taskmaster with sign language!?

[@Ingel_Riday6690]

@@fcon2123 Sign language, more melanin, XX chromosomes, and a fake leg. Totally different. 😛

[@VadersFirst]

The whole show in silence would have been awesome. Maybe just for shock, any scenes where she isn’t there would have sound, or any scene that’s taking the perspective of anyone else would have sound, but all of the Echo-focused shots would be silent. Also the whole basis is pretty awesome. Kind of similar to the idea of John Wick. Highly trained assassin trying to retire but the demons from the past come back to haunt, preventing redemption. That sounds awesome.

[@myrddrral]

The only problem with this series is that it exists, but Disney simply will hear none of that, despite not having a leg to stand on.

[@TheDalinkwent]

I hear that.

[@-redacted_by_youtube]

She didn't.

[@Geezer-yf8hv]

Pun intended!

[@Geezer-yf8hv]

I actually were rethinking this type of crap, but apparently not! Strong Female Native American deaf mute, with a prosthetic leg? Could they please make her also add in being Transgender queer vegan Satanist? And a Flat Earther?

[@henri191]

The M-She-U strikes again and thank you , Critical Drinker for watched it instead of me and the others 😂

[@GalaxyOfBoltz]

DEI and ESG scores have RUINED Hollywood. Absolutely RUINED.

[@user-fh7ee2of1l]

​@@GalaxyOfBoltzTotally 😢

[@philliprosewood7049]

I watched this from man of recaps so I saved myself 5 hours by watching a 4 minute video.

[@somejerkbag]

Murica 🙄

[@orderflowarchives]

He does get paid alot to make the videos. So fair play

[@Isnogood12]

The most painful part was having to watch Vincent D’Onofrio, such an amazing actor and the very definition of Fisk, get reduced to this.

[@ericekstrand1983]

Once again he finds himself "In a world of shit"

[@micrenaissance9819]

“Look how they massacred my boy”

[@Alboalt]

Money. Maybe his home needs a new addition.

[@Apexapee]

I wonder if he knew beforehand how this character would be portrayed, and if he just said F it give me enough money and i am game anyway

[@juzdafax7550]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Echo's likeness to that of Kimiko from The Boys; the outfit, overall look, fighting abilities (Kimiko's a supe though), muteness, created sign language, etc. Similar characters that are handled in a very different fashion.

[@patrickkolodziejczyk7217]

Kimiko is a good character. It's probably why. Even if The Boys is too gore for me they nails their characters.

[@genebaker511]

Keep in mind, the showrunner said the character's superpowers in the comics are lame.

[@taserman17]

This is why these shows fail.

[@shawklan27]

In a world with talking raccoons, cyborg gods, a eggplant alien with a giant chin, broccoli people, mutants and literal norse mythology being reality copy powers is a stretch? LMFAO THE WRITER NEEDS GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE WITH THAT RETARD ENERGY! 😂😂😂😂

[@gabrielboorom2683]

The modern equivalent of The Beatles saying "We're bigger than Jesus"... because we all know how well *that worked out for them...*

[@ThompterSHunson]

actually, the idea of a silent show to see Maya's perspective was great! It's too sad they can't have such creative ideas in Marvel/Disney anymore.

[@samuel5591]

They tried it with Silent Night but it really didn't work, unfortunately.

[@NeroLeMorte]

They did well in only murders in the apartment and the hush episode of buffy the vampire slayer. Only those shows had actual good writing unlike Echo.

[@TOONYBOY]

The idea that an assassin looked Kingpin in the eye at point blank range and failed to kill him even when shooting him in the head really makes you question whether Daredevil would have even gotten the job done if he WAS pushed over that line

[@parzival2077]

hmm well, Kingpin is shown as a Human with way higher damage taking capabilities in the previous shows or comics, look at the scene where he gets hit by a car or when he is in the proximity of an explosion and walks away unharmed(in the Hawkeye show). Even in the comics he isn't just some normal Human, he is shown to handle Spiderman's punches and hits pretty well.

[@TOONYBOY]

@@parzival2077 Comics are different entirely and Hawkeye is already outside of the realm of Daredevil in terms of direction and writing from what I've heard. We're taking a Daredevil villain and comparing him to this show. Anything past Daredevil Season 3 is what's being compared and anything prior to Daredevil Season 3 is what it's being compared against

[@Novictus]

@@parzival2077 I mean. He was shot in the eye? I have watched a ton of Spider-man media but like.... The eye is squishy and the brain behind it is too.

[@parzival2077]

@@Novictus search up cases where people have lost an eye from gun shots It's not as unrealistic, but the show is of a deaf women who is constantly overpowering men, it can't any more unrealistic than that. King pin surviving is more believable

[@parzival2077]

@@TOONYBOY I guess yeah Anyways I'm not really gonna compare a perfect show like daredevil with this nonsense. I was just using some stuff I noticed in his recent appearance At the end of the day i really can't bother with these MsheU content

[@MikesGearGarage]

I love the part where Echo yelled “Marco!” and everyone Polo’d.

[@3am5am]

The thing that bothers me about the DD fight scene is that it’s a missed opportunity (story wise) on two fronts. 1) Early in Mayas career working for kingpin, she’s thrown headfirst into a confrontation with Fisk’s archenemy. She’s clunky, inexperienced, and scared out of her wits (or should be), which presents a great opportunity to experience defeat firsthand in this new world she stepped into. It’s a driving force for her to get better and drive her into training and becoming more ruthless. 2) this is a fight from the villains POV, which can demonstrate how much of a boogeyman DD is to Fisks goons. This can build up the anticipation for newcomers to Charlie Cox DD. And also reinforce point 1 on how completely unprepared Maya is working for Fisk.

[@KyLewin]

Yeah, this scene should have been Maya getting her butt kicked and being terrified. Actually, it might have been really interesting to shoot it either silent or with just the sounds of her breathing or her heartbeat as this ghost moves around taking people out. With her disability, she potentially should even realize he’s there until other people react to him or she sees him take someone out. Then she is able to hit him once or twice to show she has talent, but he’s still totally above her and not going easy on her. Have it end with her losing her prosthetic and cowering in fear. He takes pity on her and tells her to get out of this business, but obviously she can’t hear him. Fisk comforts her and she promises to never lose again or something. Daredevil is protected, Maya is human and understandable, and Fisk is manipulative, just the way they all should be.

[@larryfoulkeofficial8609]

​@@KyLewingood shit man

[@ProcyonNite]

This... Is exactly what happened tho. She doesn't defeat Daredevil, and the only reason she was able to stand up straight is because she is above average then the rest of the thugs.

[@RenegadeSpider2]

@@ProcyonNite only thing that bothered me was daredevil left without knocking her out cold, which isn't something DD would do

[@justateddybear951]

@@KyLewin Only problem is that I'm pretty sure DD would know someone is deaf fairly quickly

[@taliablack4080]

Just listening to this makes me want to retch. I don't give two shits about Echo, but the deconstruction and humiliation of one of my favorite Marvel villains at the hands of these walking AIs that have been handed the title of "Scriptwriters" boils my blood.

[@Mankind-Journey]

😬💢😡😤

[@Flummoxed_Buffoon87]

You might be onto something with AI`s. It is starting to feel like these shows ARE written by AI`s. All Disney would need to do is have a writer team proof read the prompts then I guess you have a whole season written in a few weeks. Hell they made the Kevin Feige joke about him being a robot in She-Hulk

[@marcelgardner8497]

I think ai would actually do a better job.

[@paulw5039]

"Walking AIs" is close to the real issue I think. Most modern writers have now spent most of their adult lives in social media echo chambers. It profoundly affects (limits) their thinking and consequently their writing.

[@ViralCog]

There is an episode in only murders in the building where we are shown from the perspective of a character who cannot speak or hear, that episode was beautifully done, the actor playing that character acted with his face and I could feel the heart break in his eyes. It is possible to give a great performance with just your face, with the right actors it is possible.

[@greebj]

And that if you switch storylines and perspectives from episode to episode, the girlbossing or bumbling hyperemotional male leads don't grate on viewers too much and can be tolerable. Good writing more than acting, even Martin Short playing Martin Short didn't make me want to eat glass to ease the pain like he usually does

[@Sully0020]

Seeing the actresses lack of facial expressions reminds me of a phenomenal movie - CODA. And how fantastic the deaf actor who played Ruby's brother was when he argued with her near the end of the movie. So much emotion, no words spoken aloud.

[@Dogapillar4Lyfe]

In the comics Echo is athletic and slim looking. This echo looks like a cream puff. Can we be honest here, I'm a fat dude and I will state an obvious fact: To be a Superhero with no powers you have to the peak of human kind. Fat isn't the peak.

[@iconic8986]

Don’t worry man, a lot of people agree with you. I, myself included.

[@ElewIV]

She was either pregnant or just had the baby when they filmed it. She definitely needed to drop some pounds, but it's still another example of terrible production management.

[@ny-tylekker4972]

I see nothing but truth here

[@CEWIII9873]

maybe your "fat" is your superpower? Like the bad guy from the x-men cartoons?

[@THEINFINITIVERSESAGA]

Finally that’s exactly what I’ve been saying and I according to my BPM I’m obese despite having an average build and being 6’

[@Dreadfulwretch]

Robert Pattinson as Batman barely spoke but had so much emotion even with the mask on. Echo should have found an actress that could do the same.

[@dcmastermindfirst9418]

Exactly. Pattinson was excellent

[@keiichi8191]

Does the lead actress have any other facial expressions than "blank boredom" and "constipated"?

[@HungryTacoBoy]

I didn't even know this existed and even after watching this there's a very strong possibility I'll go on to forget it ever existed.

[@CatholicElectrician]

Marvel has completely lost the ability to make an action movie with grounded, realistic action scenes. Every character fights like a superhero, so there’s absolutely no standard for how hard they hit, how injured they are, or how they can be beaten. The shows are built on ambiguity, making it impossible for anyone to invest any emotion in the story

[@Venjamin]

But people like you will rant and rave about how "realistic" John wick is. lmao

[@joshwim8]

"every character fights like a superhero" omg wow, it's almost like we're watching adaptations of comic books 😮

[@Goes2WarAlone]

You nerds are coping so hard. If you are so scared about how our women fight, look up Woodrow Wilson Keeble. He did what a company of men and tanks could not BY HIS DAMN SELF. Our men might make you pee your pants. I was taught to squeeze hands as hard as possible on first sncounter with a hand shake to see it the "man" makes a woman sound.

[@Goes2WarAlone]

Also, I taught level 2 combatives as the 15tc, Fort sill, Ok, NCOIC for 2.4yrs as an E5. Are you guys being for real, or are men really this whiny? I thought it was just my platoon of american "men", but I guess it runs rampant. Quick lesson, your water supply may or may not be laced with estrogen.

[@dewolf123]

Thats different, in John Wick, they trained to endure more damage and wearing armored clothing so they have an excuse ​@Venjamin

[@SoldierSpiderx]

I want to see a team-up of Daredevil and Echo. This way a deaf person can sign orders to a blind person, or a blind person can call out for help from a deaf person and A Quiet Place is a better representation of deaf roles than Echo. Far more enjoyable too.

[@conqc20]

They could remake the movie "See No Evil, Hear No Evil" with them both.

[@SoldierSpiderx]

@@conqc20awesome title

[@Kingdom850]

It happens in the comics. They even fall in love.

[@kevinciccone445]

Was that comment supposed to be wrong, or backwards, on every level? Not sure if it was a joke, sarcasm is hard to recognise online sometimes.

[@VinnytheBuddha]

The fact people watch anything today by Disney is still a marvelous feat!

[@Nimajneb42069]

Now that Loki and Guardians are done, I genuinely have 0 desire to watch anything comic book related from them moving forward. I am now just waiting for Gunn lead DCU to take over.

[@markkramer5740]

What If?.......Although, as I reviewed, second season is a huge step down. Where What If? Season One can be likened to Phase 1-3, Season 2 can be likened to Phase 4-5 with the Hela episode being one of the best. (I will also still defend Hawkeye as one of the best shows that D+ Marvel has done.)

[@anon2752]

Only thing im interested to see is who they pick to play some of the xmen like wolverine. Im sure the movies themselves will be shit though.

[@JoakimOtamaa]

​@@markkramer5740Hela episode was just shittier version of the first Thor. I also don't like how the third movie retconed the Asgardians to be gods when in the first one Odin said they aren't. Taika Waititi is a fuck.

[@Eroll-dw8ex]

​@@Nimajneb42069if you think loki is good you shouldnt give your opinion on this.

[@Yepper1234]

Drinker. Just wanted to say cheers on putting me on to "Blue Eyed Samurai" excellent show! Last episode seemed a little hurried? I think is the word I'm looking for. However, that is a perfect example of how you can deal with some pretty heavy social issues. BUT make it so natural it is necessary for context and character development. Honestly though I just enjoyed a good story even though I am Scottish by ancestry, but hey if you can't laugh at yourself what fun are you. Great job as always. I raise my bottle of Uncle Jack to you(sorry it's empty)☮️

[@DakotaBecker-wg1gp]

Ya even tho the whole tranny thing is cringe that show was unbelievably good and I’m addicted I can’t wait for the second season although Im just hoping they don’t go full woke they already make white men evil and I don’t like the main character dressing in drag the entire series tho I probably wouldn’t care if every other show was pushing the trans Mafia agenda 📇 I mean the original Mulan movie was incredible and Blue Eyed Samurai is one of the best shows in recent memory. Here’s to hoping for more great shows in a company among others promoting woke crap 💩 #FJB

[@Jonathan_Collins]

Did we really need it to be confirmed? We all know the M-She-U is a thing, Fiege said it himself years ago that he wanted more women than men in the universe!

[@malickmeziani_FreePalestine]

Yes… but at the same time WHY ? Their fanbase and target audience is composed in majority of men. So it doesn’t make any sense in a capitalistic point of view. It is either madness or they just wanted to sabotage Disney from within.

[@somejerkbag]

Murica 🙄

[@The_Punisher]

Fiege?

[@TheNightman.]

@@malickmeziani_FreePalestine Because they think they can tank the male viewership (because man bad) and get that 50% female viewership, when they can barely get 0.5% because differing interests, poorly written garbage and much more

[@mauriciokilo]

Maybe in a few years we will see more women than men in the police, construiction and army also. Then Disney's mission to "equitity" will be fullfilled.

[@jwalk31]

Well this one... you hit right on the head. You are the first person so far that has mentioned her lack of expression. I think she did it once for the entire show run, otherwise, the same droopy looking face. She looks mad that she's tired. it's a shame, because the deaf aspect could have been used so much better, basically a counterpart to Daredevil. And the sign language was the least of their worries. It is very possible to emote and put expression into your ASL, unfortunately the actress sucks. They hired a deaf person, instead of an actor who is deaf. I'm not saying she has to be Marlee Matlin, but damn, someone out there who is deaf can act and is athletic enough to pull of stunts. It just sucked.

[@DrLipkin]

Hell, facial expressions are a vital aspect of ASL. In spoken language, how something is said is often just as important as what is said. Sign language can't easily replicate intonation, and so fills that gap with facial expressions and body language. That Maya's actress is really deaf says to me that the problem actually lies with poor directing. She was told to be stoic in spite of it being unnatural.

[@NathanCassidy721]

He’s less known but George the Giant Slayer mentioned she just had a “grumpy face” the entire time and the only time she smiled, I kid you not, was when she killed a white guy. This show is basically the South Park meme cranked up to 20.

[@Ytomany]

Fr nobody makes more expressions than deaf people when they are signing and they sign so damn fast to as well. Did alot of work for the school of the deaf when I was younger @@DrLipkin

[@RJALEXANDER777]

@@DrLipkin Damn. Well gotta love it when Hollywood manages to suck all the personality out of an actor/actress. They do it depressingly often for the sake of "vision".

[@mutasimaldory]

It is called ACTING!! You don't need to be deaf to portray a deaf person, this is the new-age bulls**t that has been forcefully inserted into everything that insults everybody..everybody with a brain, anyway. The most memorable..THE most memorable.."blind" girl on TV for 2, maybe 3 decades? He'll, maybe ever?! The blind student from Lionel Richies' "Hello", Laura Carrington. Who wasn't blind.

[@empiricalsmut9419]

I find it funny how when one of the Echo trailers was released, the one where it shows Kingpin beating up a dude with blood on his hand, tons of people were like "Oh yeah boys, this is it, Disney Marvel is going dark!" Meanwhile, they have done this countless times -- they craft trailers to look dramatic, serious, and even violent, and yet, when the final product comes out, it is nothing like that. The same happened with Moon Knight; they just release a trailer with Moon Knight punching a thing a few times without a camera cut, and everyone is like, "Oh yeah, here it is fellas, the gritty show we've been waiting for since they stopped Netflix Daredevil!" It's laughable, because they've done this since the days of Age of Ultron. The initial trailers for that movie seemed dark and eerie, suggesting a dramatic crippling of the team, and a potentially world-ending scenario that would push our heroes to their limits... Then, the movie finally comes out, and it's nothing near that.

[@noobie1890]

People from my work tell me I would like it because it’s “violent and gritty”. I could care less, the story has to draw me and keep me in my seat. The “violence and grittiness” just make the story feel more grounded and less-restricted. I could care less for the edginess. I want to be entertained, not lectured or bored out of my mind. The fact that Disney has been capable to do all of that amongst a loyal fan base, such as Marvel and Star Wars, is insane. I guess failure doesn’t matter when you buy out all of your competition.

[@Officialkingz1]

Welcome to the world of advertisement.

[@frocat5163]

I prefer to call it _The Long Weekend of Ultron,_ since it only took about four days.

[@calebleach7988]

Ngl, Fisk was the best part of the show. The scene where he and Maya were eating together was genuinely intense. Overall, he had weight as a villain (haven’t seen the last episode yet, that might change)

[@VivaToddVegas]

The fight choreography in the final battle between Echo and Kingpin was AMAZING! The way Echo slowly touched his chest with her fingers (to make him have a brief sad flashback from childhood) must’ve taken so many hours of practice. After four episodes of waiting, we could not have asked for a more amazing final battle! It was a fight for the ages… A slow touch AND a sad flashback?! You truly know what excites action fans! Thank you, Marvel!

[@Fotoschiki]

If you want to see a great dramatic redemtion story about a deaf girl, that expertly tackles bullying, suicide and finding meaning in uplifting deep connections to others that outweights the suffering, I recommend "a silent voice". An emotional heavy weight with great impact and a real lesson in humanity that points inwards, not outwards. So the opposide of what hollywood has become.

[@monkey39128]

The Japanese really are kicking the West's arse at the moment. So many people seem to be turning to anime because it offers what the West won't, compelling storytelling. It's nice to see the taboo around anime starting to wear off. Sure some of it is weird but most anime and manga are excellent. Plus that new Godzilla is meant to be good which is another win for the Japanese. Not than the West can't do good storytelling, we're just too bogged down by politics for it to flourish.

[@FortisConscius]

Re: Silent Voice - She's also not a victim either. She's adapting, she's pushing herself to find ways to communicate with normal kids (notebook, for example). I cried twice. The ending (obviously) but also the start. It was very relatable in that way that I found trying to connect with people growing up (I also carried a pocket notebook). (P.S. It worked out. I can lipread and speak, I don't sign because I don't need to, the notebook is also retired). Echo is as superficial as it is insulting.

[@Fotoschiki]

@@FortisConscius I watched that movie many times and I get at least teary eyes every time again. In the obvious parts ofcause, but one of the strongest scenes for me is when Shoko's mom bows down to appologize to Shoya's mom. It's a small scene for most but somehow it really hits me hard.

[@tattooeddragon]

The simple fact that she can fight with a prosthetic leg has me rolling my eyes.

[@sethottoman2588]

Echo's arc was so painful and tedious to watch in hawkeye series and the fact disney went and made a whole show dedicated to her out of all the OG characters in daredevil universe and made her on per with daredevil screams whole lot of woke female lead in disney marvel

[@roghateyrn]

They didnt green light Echo because they believed itd make a great show, they did it because its about delivering the MESSAGE. It checks off so many boxes at once, they couldn't pass it up. Unlikable Female lead? Check. Mildly disabled? Check. Majorly disabled? Double check. Non-white? Super check. Surrounded by male characters that are proven super badasses to be humbled and emasculated? Super check. We're sold, have that one writer phone it in and wrap it up in a bow to call it a day!

[@khaoss4024]

She wasn’t on par with daredevil lmao. He didn’t even get hurt really. Bullseye was a tougher fight

[@lephepha]

​@@khaoss4024agreed. She got her ass handed to her and ran to get a gun and still got shown that even with a gun, man > ... Daredevil did say he's been watching those guys the whole night until they (Kingpins men and her) showed up. So he left because his fight wasn't with the girl boss. I think they just included Daredevil here to get us Daredevil fans to watch the show like they did SheHulk.

[@Thatdudedrew17]

This comment is underrated.

[@sethottoman2588]

@@lephepha You missed the point how disney even considered bringing echo in a duel with daredevil, he's a master martial artist with superhuman agility and stamina, echolocation senses and an expert in criminology ofcourse she's not close to being on par, Disney just took the most bland and distasteful character and made a show about it throwing in daredevil to bait fans into watching this clusterfuck

[@darkginger365]

Who exactly is the target group of viewers who have been eagerly waiting for such a movie like "Echo"?

[@TheWarmachine375]

Echo fight scenes made Power Rangers battles look like masterpieces in comparison.

[@innocent-_-]

At least those guys could sell a fight and not look physically incapable of the punch or kick that they're supposed to be doing

[@danieldeclue1466]

They didn't have to screw this show up. They had the makings of a good show here. Oldest story in the book at this point. They really had a chance to have her team up with Daredevil and have a for real handicap superhero pair up. You could have done interesting things with the fact that he can still hear and she can still see. Anything besides what they shat out. But no, they just had to have girl boss, so what did they do, they Cameoed Daredevil to put in the trailer, and they totally completely character assassinate kingpin... cuz Queenpin... they turned one of the most realistically deadly villains you could possibly imagine into a simpering blubbering baby.

[@MyFatherLoves]

Watched LoTR FotT today and got reminded just how AMAZING lady characters were written and acted back in the glory days. Arwen’s such an incredible character.

[@jasonguido9057]

I have been missing the legendary "Nah, it'll be fine" 😂

[@MrAlleluia00]

The fact that all modern Marvel villains are constantly pinning for the strong female protagonist, says a lot about the writers motivations.

[@tomikaze777]

I'm shocked. I really didn't think it could possibly be this bad...and yet somehow they are still able to surprise us.

[@bennyblanco4rmthaBX]

The one thing that I've learned from watching the way these "girl boss" characters are made and how consistent the same tropes of invincibility and innate genius are applied to each one of them is; this how feminists view themselves, as infallible, unstoppable forces of nature being held back by the patriarchy 😂. If you actually take a minute to contemplate this, its actually quite sad.

[@senormarston]

Yeah, pretty much. You can see through these feminine characters in these "woke" productions that they really don't want to take accountability of their actions

[@clogs4956]

I’m a feminist - one of the real old-style ones - and I don’t see myself as a “girl boss” nor do I like such characters (I use the term loosely: they don’t have characters).

[@RokushoTheRavager]

​@@clogs4956 _"I'm a Feminist"_ I really wouldn't advise admitting to this if I were you. Feminism doesn't mean what it used to and it's a giant red flag to most guys. It's not something to be proud of in this day and age, regardless of what the media tries telling you.

[@dippledopple]

@@RokushoTheRavagerSo what if it’s a red flag to you? White western feminism doesn’t represent the world. And a lot of places in the world really, really need changes in law for women. Not everywhere is developed for one

[@ggt47]

Abd bullies Zelgar?

[@andywatts2529]

Drinker shirt arrived today, made it all the way to Taree Australia, bloody beautiful. Cheers 🍻

[@SuperHoldenMagroin]

I've been a chef for most of my life and am no stranger to when a product has turned, and Marvel has indeed turned. The sad truth is that these fools are still trying to sell the meat and all I can think is, "no one is going to want to eat this and those that do are going to get sick".

[@zero95lucky]

Sick in the head

[@CEWIII9873]

turn it into sausage

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

The meat's got mold on it and customers are talking about food poisoning, but they're still selling it anyway!

[@TrigonAZR]

Because they're ideolgues not artists or businessmen. Maybe they're hoping they'll get a government bailout for all the job they're doing in pushing communism?

[@jackreacher2095]

I got botulism after watching Thor Love and Thunder

[@Der_Thrombozyt]

Another show, where the most intriguing mystery is: "Who watches this?" - To which my answer has to be "Thank god I don't have to and at least Daredevil is blind so he doesn't have to, either."

[@syoussefi6384]

In the movie The Skeleton Key John Hurt had to emote and express his thoughts with his eyes alone (portraying an invalid) and if I recall he received a lot of praise for that. His eyes alone, wasn’t even using facial expressions. I don’t know they enjoy going with emotionless characters for these shows, it’s a joke. Thank you Drinker!!

[@thecloudtherapist]

They're remaking it with a real invalid person cos actors are not allowed to ACT anymore 😂

[@SuperSolshy]

If you have seen the Insomniac leak with the indoctrinating mandatory diversity training this show is spot on with almost every point. Which leads me to believe that their internal messaging expands not just to video games but to everything related to Disney.

[@EternalNightingale]

I’d rather be indoctrinated by the reapers of Mass effect than disneys propaganda

[@MasterBlade111]

@@EternalNightingale… I don’t think it’s that serious my guy?

[@makhmal1776]

3:19 not all the alchohol in the world could save him from the brain rot that Echo inflicts

[@charlesmartinjr3971]

There have been a few shows over the years with deaf actors/actresses who signed (and sometimes spoke), and it worked well. I refuse to believe Disney couldn't have pulled this off ... which means they just simply didn't do what it would have taken to pull it off. Whether laziness or greed, I know not, but it's inexcusable.

[@andyf313]

Perfectly summarized as always Drinker! As a metis martial artist, I can honestly say I'd normally be offended by Echo, but every show they've produced is the same. I've become entirely apathetic towards Marvel, and their company wide incompetence. They refused to pay the original daredevil show runners what they were worth... Think of all the money they'd have saved in the long run. Daredevil's new show would be out and maybe the showrunners could've been brought on to help make this work. What a waste, what a shame.

[@eveapple4928]

I’ve just rewatched Arachnophobia for the first time in 20 years. It’s a good film, well written and paced with great character development and a band of unlikely allies with varying life experiences and skills, led by a man scared to death of spiders who come together to combat the evil menacing their small apple pie town. It’s funny, warm, and focusses on team work as well as providing decent scares. The spiders are a great antagonistic device, it’s not dissimilar to Jaws in many ways but funnier. Classic 1990s movie well worth a watch. It entertained me for the full length of the film and ultimately isn’t that what a movie is supposed to do? Tell a great story that keeps the watcher enthralled ❤❤