Echoism: The Opposite of Narcissism?

Echoism is a term used to describe a personality trait or pattern of behavior characterised by a tendency to minimise one's own needs, desires, and opinions while focusing excessively on the needs and desires of others. It is often seen as the opposite or counterpart to narcissism.
This term "echoism" was coined by Dr. Craig Malkin, who proposed that echoism represents the opposite end of the spectrum from narcissism. While narcissism involves an excessive focus on oneself and a need for admiration, echoism involves an excessive focus on others and a lack of assertiveness or self-identity.
Common traits include low assertiveness, poor boundaries and always putting the needs of others first.
Dr Malkin is the author of 'Rethinking Narcissism', and provides more information on echoism on his KZbin channel / @craigmalkin
/ @craigmalkin
Please feel free to suggest any topics you might like me to cover in future videos.
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#echoism #mentalhealth #relationships

[@michaelgpartridge2384]

Echoism can be induced by overpowering narcissists, particularly when financial control is employed. You don’t have any chance, they delight in taking away your real self... This dynamic is becoming well-known... Narcissists’ days of destruction are coming to a close, we must spread this awareness, they have lost control in attempting to control everyone else...

[@lustertone8587]

This seems to match the characteristics of those of us with CPTSD who have employed a fawning response as our primary go to for conflict responses.

[@juliaannegrider5734]

Exactly

[@seashell1038]

Yes I was thinking fawning too.

[@cloudwalker8266]

Totally agree. It sounds to me like someone's overengineered something that's already been defined. All it does is add confusion. Experts don't need to refine the concept; what sufferers need is a solution to help eliminate this unhealthy response.

[@pipwhitefeather5768]

A more succinct way of expressing what I was thinking. I rambled on... lol

[@A_Black_Sheep94]

What is CPTSD or fawning? Idk if that's some specific kind of ptsd or something but I don't have anything of that sort but I display pretty much all the characteristics he outlined and always have as far as I can remember.

[@cupcake0480]

My mother told me many times that what I wanted wasn’t important, what I felt or said wasn’t important, but she praised me when I did something for her. She was physically abusive as well as emotionally neglectful. I tried for 50 years to have a harmonious relationship with her but gave up in the end and went no contact. She was selfish and I’ve always tried very hard not to be that way. It feels like an attempt to be completely opposite to her, I’m scared I’d ever be like her, so this echoism really resonates with me. I have recently escaped a decade long relationship with a narcissist where I was exploited, but I see that part of that abuse was me stuck in this pattern of trying to harmonise and keep things peaceful as much as possible. I’m free of both these people now and I’m working on my patterns, better late than never!

[@juliaannegrider5734]

Yes! Precisely! I grew up with as an only child of an overt/ covert( depending on her moods) Narcissist mother. I married a covert Narcissist (how stupid of me) 23 years ago. This trait of echoism, I believe, is a direct result of growing up with toxic Narcissist trauma frim my mother. I must have married the covert Narcissist out of my low self esteem from my childhood. ( I was married 21 years previously to a man who didn't show much emotion at all and somehow that must play in all of this) . The death of my father then brought on a destructive personality change as a result of what I believe you described as echoism. I am just now starting to understand all of this and regretting my lost life as my true self as I am now almost 70 😢

[@triple999fruitful]

You are not stupid, you were surviving and deceived. Give yourself credit for evolving and it's okay to make mistakes it's helpful to learn.

[@oceanaoushn8803]

The entire society used to brainwash us ...no wonder it took us so long to understand what was going on... And channels like this help open eyes and see...the reality around us

[@myjourneytotruth]

You aren't alone unfortunately 😔 I woke up a few years ago after decades of manipulation, no self esteem, no self identity, no significant stance in life. Now that I know, I try to forgive myself and them for putting me through all that. I see it for what it was & is... an experience to learn & grow from. Never label yourself negative labels as others around you will mimic the same. I know decades have passed, we cannot turn back time, so let's make positive changes so our remaining time is productively used in self appreciation, self-love, and compassion. I try to be with nature whenever I can & surround myself with kind caring individuals & do what makes me content. Take walks & hikes in nature, do some yoga, volunteer at a local food bank, community center, school, library etc when you do youll see how the most vulnerable & needy of society will give you what youve been searching for lifelong, genuine gratitude & appreciation. When you give without asking or expecting anything in return to total strangers, you'll see life in a much better perspective & that knowledge & feeling is worth its weight in gold. I also try to spread awareness to those I see vulnerable, who can benefit from my life experiences either in person & online through social media & youtube. Life is beautifully complicated, it takes time to figure it out. I wish you the best of what life has to offer 🙏🏻🫶🏻🙂

[@ginaiosef1634]

You are a great and strong woman! Your experience is not easy to be lived-in in by anybody, this is what makes you one of a kind! As was sad before, give yourself the credit you deserve. And be proud of you. You're special for it !❤

[@pleasepleasethebees]

Never heard this term before now, but it's my lived experience, for sure. Without giving you my CPTSD credentials, I will just say that I've been conditioned to feel better when I neglect myself and pour my energy into supporting others. It sounds like a good, selfless thing - but it hasn't brought me happiness, or healthy relationships, or success. I'm always discarded the moment I stop being useful. I've stopped the people-pleasing behaviors, but my struggle now is to define what *I* want and keeping a sense of worthiness to my own goals. Like, I can sell myself short and not put the energy into myself that I would totally put toward someone else. Working on it 👍 First step is admitting I have a problem, right?

[@sloene72]

Can I ask how you stop?

[@pipwhitefeather5768]

I completely relate with what you say. I also just heard this term today. It is a challenge for sure, I'm only just finding my 'self interest' now in my 50's. I can't believe in myself enough to promote myself even though I have seen 'know-nothings' plugging the s**t out of themselves!! I'm thinking 'oh gosh! I could do better than that' and then when a moment passes, I completely doubt everything I know. Fellow human, I hope we find the healing we need to overcome these 'bad programs' we have running. 🙏🫀

[@seashell1038]

It seems like a desire to be as unlike the narcissist as possible.

[@willdasilva4459]

That’s me!

[@tobeytristan9534]

First time learn about this ...Sounds like extreme end of people pleasing, codependency mechanism , annihilate, abandon self to survive...

[@TheQueensWish]

I didn’t realize this was a thing. I think I have these traits and have become more self aware of it over time. I’ve pulled back on a lot of it, which is good news for me.

[@ginaiosef1634]

Me too ! You are not alone, see ?😊

[@TheQueensWish]

@@ginaiosef1634 I see you! Thanks Gina. 👋

[@ginaiosef1634]

@@TheQueensWish 👋🧡

[@andydufresne8034]

I've been calling it altruism, which I see as the opposite of narcissism. Narcissists value themselves over the greater good and altruists value the greater good over themselves. Both are mutually lost in their own perspectives which they project onto others, failing to realize others think very differently from them, and perceiving their own qualities in others where they often don't exist. Just as narcissists operate on the assumption that others think like them, so do altruists. It's remarkable how they can each project their motivations onto the other in conversation and neither realizes they're doing it, so that a narcissist talking to an altruist interprets everything the altruist does through the lens of narcissistic motivations while the altruist is interpreting everything the narcissist does through altruistic motivations. I've realized much of my own bad behavior comes from misinterpreting my narcissistic family's behavior through my good intentions. Like my sister delivering insults as some kind of loving joke leading to me trying to bond with friends through insults. I eventually realized this and retrained myself to become more sincere and express authentic sweetness, and loh and behold, my relationships with decent people got that much better. I'm now trying to identify all the bad behavior I picked up in this way, throw it out, and allow my true better motivations to shine through at last after having surpressed them my whole life letting my family train me to be like them.

[@Cornusnuttallii]

"...a narcissist talking to an altruist interprets everything the altruist does through the lens of narcissistic motivations while the altruist is interpreting everything the narcissist does through altruistic motivations..." Wow! This is some deep thinking!!! It makes perfect sense that we all are so oblivious to it for soooo long. Thank you! And the insulting jokes that my mother let my family get away with... Same, same! Edit: OMG. Actually, she participated!

[@franceslock1662]

I think Echoism is much more than altruism. Examples might be spending all your time giving quality care to others, cooking and eating what they want instead of what’s good for you, not having time to exercise, shower every day, take your tablets, and look after your health. Giving all those things to others. Being last on the list willingly and without resentment. Taking just enough care of yourself to serve the needs of others.

[@mtc-j9i]

So accurate!!! Down to the “taking joking insults as a loving way to bond” and trying that stuff out of normal people 🤯🤯 I literally just had this convo with myself in my journal. I had to unlearn that. Healthy people don’t like to be made fun of all the time! Imagine that!

[@pipwhitefeather5768]

I'm in shock! My daughter said earlier this evening "Mum, I think you might be an echoist, you should look into it" Well I'd never heard of it so I looked it up. Your video was the most informative that I found, and delivered beautifully. All but one point I could completely relate to. I've always held firm to my own opinions. Against any 'authority'. I also already knew that I have C-PTSD and I'm an HSP. I know I have a 'hotline' to my intuition. I've had many psychic experiences over the course of my life, intuitions proven correct have assured me that it's not my imagination. Anyway my point was I think, that it is a sensitive persons response to trauma, in that we want to sooth everyone, so no one kicks off, or gets angry or focuses on us. Also we put out our psychic antenna, so we sense the danger before it happens. I feel now that these things have had such an influence on my life it astonishes me! I thought I was fine! So much denial! It's a long journey to understanding. Hahahaa I can laugh now... I think... maybe I'm just comforting you dear reader... Thank you so much Darren.

[@triple999fruitful]

There are very violent consquences for taking the initiative, taking or accepting credit and that may or not be discernable to others. Certainly, for some narcs, they use this false echo false humility to trap their victims to, before laying on the guilt trips and violence. Narcs can be the great imitators and the echos understand it's safer to be avoidant.

[@MikeSpinoza]

Like describing an INFJ of the MBTI system.

[@gorunsko31]

When “ caught” on self care by my mom, I was shamed for it and ridiculed. Clearly any attempt to satisfy my interest was discouraged and even forbidden. In the same time religious message was also demanding sacrifice ( Catholic mother). I had no choice but keep giving away my time, my efforts and attention as well as physical labor to serve my younger sisters, parents and eventually anyone who wanted something from me. Occasionally good people return my kindness - these were crumbs I lived on. Now, I am old, tired and somewhat feeling like I deserve time for myself…. So little energy left. Better late than never. Thank you for this video ❤

[@commanderozbrek6011]

This describes exactly the mind-set and behavior patterns that were praised and encouraged in the convent where I grew up. To be self-effacing, humble and to put others before one's self was the ideal. Being 'worldly', self-interested, opinionated, bold or 'brassy' were traits strongly disapproved of. The early programming is hard to change.

[@trelawneygm]

I hope you do more with echoism, CPTSD, HSP, and helping people with these issues have healthy boundaries with narcissistic people in their communities

[@Craigdna]

Fascinating topic, Darren, and excellent dissertation. I appreciate learning from you. I am a strong believer in what is referred to as orthomolecular nutrition. From that, I have learned a good amount about de-myelination from metal toxicities. Prefrontal cortex gets ingredients last and is often sacrificied when more chelation is needed in the body and brain. I have shared this belief in one of your other postings, but wanted to add to it in this comment. There are 5 theories of depression from the orthomolecular perspective. They are the 1)GABA/Glutamate 2) Catecholamines-Norepinephrine/Serotonin/Dopamine 3) Immune system based depression 4) Stress based-oxidative/inflammation/emotional and 5) myelination based depression. All of these types of depression, zinc plays an incredibly important role. It is depleted in stress states, when it is low in serum blood, then serotonin is low, when it is deficient in the brain, then de-myelination occurs, it is a pivotal regulator of GABA and glutamate, and we all know how important it is for our immune systems. The NMDA receptor sites in the brain have zinc gates on them. In autism studies, they have found that mercury has a strong affinity to occupy those zinc gates if zinc is not on them. Heavy metals in the brain are definitely tied to depression, as well as many other behavioral influences. I think that it is possible that other metals can may bind to those receptors as well as mercury. Zinc is an evolutionary mineral/enzyme/neurotransmitter(Gazelle for example), and is important in all plant and tree species. I believe that when we thoroughly understand zinc's pathways throughout the body and brain, we will understand many of these behavioral disorders as well as the spectrum disorders, which have aleady been liniked to metal toxicities. Sorry about all of the comment space, but it is an important topic. Thank you for all of your efforts and generousity in sharing.

[@ginaiosef1634]

Thank you also, very interesting what you've written!

[@user-iq4jh8jo3o]

In my experience, both covert narcissism and echoism are maladaptations to an avoidant attachment style in early childhood. Same wounds, opposite coping mechanism. The main difference is that you can come back from echoism as your true self is still there, albeit under developed. Narcissism is a life sentence, a slavery to the false self.

[@mtc-j9i]

Maladaptations to the avoidant attachment style of the parent? Or maladaptations to our own avoidant attachment style?

[@user-iq4jh8jo3o]

@@mtc-j9i in my case both, my mom was avoidant too, but in general to our own avoidance.

[@MissKim671]

Oh my, these traits describe me 😮🤯😢. And, this is precisely why I'm recovery/therapy 😢.

[@alau2058]

Wow! This was very illuminating for me. I am a HSP but also struggle with my adult son, who I believe has narcissistic tendencies. I've been stuck thinking that I'm being selfish if I don't give him what he "needs" from me. I'm also Catholic, so there's that as well. Self-sacrifice is part of how I was trained. I love my son, who is 37, but I don't like him. I have wishful thinking about how our relationship could be...but isn't. I'm actually afraid of him and his criticism of everything I do or say or think. It breaks my heart that going "no contact" may be my only recourse.

[@Wade.Stikmann]

I've spent a lot of time researching narcissism but I've never heard of echoism. This is absolutely fascinating. Also the wordplay of the Greek names is amazing. Great video! Thanks!

[@rijd2304]

This was informative, thank you. It's interesting how so many things tie into each other. Echoism - ptsd - anxiety - RS - low self-esteem - emotional dysregulation - and so forth. I think the most important thing is to learn about oneself (childhood history, what triggers one's anxieties and fear responses and reactions, one's thought habits, etc). We all have different stories and experiences. Life is one big learning experience. I'm currently reading the mindfulness book "30 Days to Reduce Anxiety" by Harper Daniels and that's been helping me with mindfulness to go deeper into myself. Thanks for this

[@_konahrik_]

While I disagree with Sam Vaknin on some things his assertion that Narcissism can sometimes not come in a self-centred form seems pretty spot on to me. More specifically when he refers to as Inverted Narcissists and "Empaths" being narcissists, that seems to be true a lot of the time. As someone who hates Ain Rand and disagrees with everything she says and am ideologically opposed to her, especially her "altruism being selfish" thing even I agree that sometimes alturism is nothing more than what's needed for the echoist (inverted narcissist) to complete the self sacrifice for their parasitic/symbiotic relationships with other people. Just because their Narcissism isn't self centered doesn't make them any less Narcissistic. I take inspiration from Max Stirner here on his idea of egoism. "The sultan has set the course on nothing but himself and will only love you if you are one of "his" people, just try it; show yourself not as his but as your own and you will take a trip to jail." etc. (Props if you know what I'm quoting). Egoism isn't a philosophy I apply to everything but in some cases if I hold reason to doubt someone's character I will. A lot of my scepticism comes from people's seemingly unable ability to factor in sociological problems with people's struggles in life and their fleeting sense of self being inately tied to other people or material objects to fill the gap of a life stripped of meaning. As someone who has severly diminished any former feelings of "self" and now see's the self as something illusory to a large degree. I feel like these sociatal problems give people the tendency to conflate social/political ills with psychological ones, which makes for the foundation of a lot of psychoanalysis, given the the fact that psychoanalysis is psychology applied to the material conditions of capitalism making a lot of its contents reactionary, (Schizoanalysis supremacy) my point here being this also applies to these "spiritual" types as well who are seen by many as healers or altruists but are actually just Inverted Narcissists again going back to Max Stirner's quotes on Egoism and the Egoist.

[@spacegirl226]

My counselor told me about echoism a while back. Glad I stumbled across this video because I can definitely relate to the info here. I really do feel like I have lost my own voice. Thanks, Darren!

[@ginaiosef1634]

Thank you for this interesting and very informative video! I am learning about Echoism for the first time , is never too late, isn't it? There is a lot to process, to discover. Again... Hope too you'll address it in the future , is one of a subject. Thank you!

[@fairygurl9269]

🖖🙂 *Growth Mode 🌻

[@franceslock1662]

Can Echoism occur without fear of seeming selfish or narcissistic? Some job roles cultivate and require Echoism. People who have a natural tendency are a good fit in these roles. Foster carers are an example. It’s low paid, low status, and is often denigrated by armchair critics. People do foster care because they understand how important it is for children, and out of care for children’s well-being and development.

[@LeslieJacobson]

I relate to what you said that certain jobs require it. I found that statement to be true in my personal assistant work.

[@TARAdubbleyuu]

Yup..most “pink collar” jobs require echoism.

[@myjourneytotruth]

Wow, it makes sense. This just wasnt a new word for me but new knowledge. Thank you for yet another beneficial video, it certainly made a difference & answered some of my questions and behaviors. So is it possible for echoists to ever live life independently & productively? How would one start off on that journey & not fall back into the old trap?

[@oldflowertender]

{I may have deleted my response, oops if I post twice.} I would like to carry this information back with me into my childhood. I knew who I was then, but was almost forced to be this way described (or perhaps I'm thinking of my own trauma responses) by a narcissistic mother (with other disorders and disabilities). Though therapy has brought me out, I'll always carry scars frm the assaults and abuses during this time of having no worth to create an ability to defending myself. I (then) quickly wld lay down on the tracks for others and take the blows of different kinds of abuses frm men who picked me. As a now senior, my living siblings (male) are only recently feeling safe enough to discuss with me their experiences and consequences of having this mother. They can only talk to me abt this in a shared email and the very deepest of wounds are still only hinted at. This 1 mother was able to cause such devastating abuses that we siblings almost behave like half humans, with a reduced lifetime of being in reality. We feel the loss of decades spent in a dystopian created world. We're all justifiably angry. We all have different types of sacrificial, stoic and echoing behaviors we've had to overcome.

[@djhrecordhound4391]

For me, the closest way to carry the information back to childhood was to write a letter to that child. I knew me and what I was going through. It felt weird to go 'third person' like that, but I "helped him understand" and "explained things to him" as me now; hopefully to lift the consistent trampling on his back. When someone tells him to love himself, they really mean for him to "(BE) loving (TO) himself". I hope what you did in therapy helped lighten your inner young lady's load too

[@smileydrana]

I also feel like many sons are experiencing this challenge with their father because of how male normative alexithymia is now finally getting the attention it needs. Almost like they Johnny Cash song a boy named sue.

[@suzannebunbury2961]

Great, please tell us more about this topic ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@deckchaironthetitanic]

Sounds like dependent personality

[@willdasilva4459]

That’s me!

[@svenkaahedgerg3425]

Very interesting topic, and I would like to learn more. Could this be a behaviour in a narcissistic person trying to change their own nature?

[@inhale.exhale.2527]

i don't think either echoism/codependancy or narcissism happen consciously. they are both dysfunctional 'survival' responses to stress - trying to get our essential needs met. this happens at that particularly vulnerable and formative stage in life in infancy and early childhood, a stage we cannot either rationalise at that time nor on reflection because we simply can't remember it. which fork we take developmentally is an interesting dilemma. perhaps it has something to do with natural (emotional?) intelligence or sensitivity? avoiding both forks by providing infants and children with unconditional positive regard (love with constructive boundaries) in a safe place to fail should be the more significant subject as without this the dysfunction is likely to perpetuate from generation to generation. the solution lies in quality of life and greater income equality which requires a review of the capitalist and centralised socialist economic models. without policy changes at this level we will never escape this deeply damaging and dysfunctional blindspot in our human development and evolution. not grasping this realisation would deny us our true maslovian purpose of transcendance as a species.

[@leannemione340]

I used to think my mom as a martyr maybe she was ab echoist? I feel like this diagnosis describes me all to well.

[@Cornusnuttallii]

I'd say if she was a silent martyr, maybe so. If she was a "woe is me" martyr, then probably more of a covert narcissist. My mother was a covert narcissist, so I became an echoist.

[@leannemione340]

My mom and dad always put their needs before their 6 children

[@pigspigs76]

This is me

[@rainrainwebdesign]

OMG the story of my life - and worse it was made much worse by my (unconscious?) reinterpretation of the scriptures ( I'm a Christian ) to justify myself - i mean at the time I thought it was what god was saying - but it isn't - scriptures like if anyone wants to be first let him be the servant of all and many others can give you your own little cult but it's not scriptural at all when you look into it - i mean god doesn't encourage it but I somehow managed to find it - it's tragic - i worked REALLY hard and prayed really hard to be ... an enabler ... I feel like a POS about it but I do believe healing and turnaround and restoration is possible - for me a real problem is that I'm still afraid of being a narcissist so I'm afraid if I stop all this serving others and look after myself in a proper manner Im still so afraid of becoming a selfish/self-interested ( not sure I understand the distinction you make there ) person ... although there is really no WAY thats going to happen but at the same time I'm a lot different of a person than I thought I was in some ways ( I mean I haven't seen my self-interested side in decades) so that fear is a bit of a drag to recovery - any more information you have on this would be appreciated - have watched many videos on narcissism but never heard this addressed this way before - i think for me understanding this would be key - thanks

[@alienpix]

Is there an updated link to Craig's page? Broken link.

[@Bee-qn7hw]

I met a lady called echo. She was shaky. Pre 2020. Oh and Granon is a psychopath.

[@TheSagemeister]

Hi Darren, the link to the Doctors YT page seems to be invalid.

[@DarrenFMagee]

Thanks for letting me know. I have updated it if you want to try that

[@TheSagemeister]

@@DarrenFMagee thank you 🙏

[@symbolsandsystems]

Echoist/Covert Narcissist?

[@knowtruth2773]

It sounds like they are over analyzing a good natured person with shy tendencies, that hasn't quite come into their own so to speak. Those types of people just need time to find themselves, without being tormented and tore down by demented people. Just my opinion.

[@behroozshahdaftar4209]

What's the solution to echoism?

[@chrisl422]

Learn to be more assertiveness when needed (recently I came across an interesting article about the airline industry. They have a training to promote assertiveness especially when speaking to someone in a higher position above you e.g in a highly dangerous situation, if you need to bring attention you could use the word "MUST" you must listen. Learn to set boundaries and most important of all learn to care for yourself.

[@behroozshahdaftar4209]

@GypsyLil Thank you, Friend.

[@behroozshahdaftar4209]

@@chrisl422 Thank you, Friend.

[@Cornusnuttallii]

I started with thinking long and hard about how it makes other people feel. Them, "Did you make your dress?" Me, "It kind of shows, doesn't it." So, I taught myself to give an appropriate response to a compliment. I also remember having to learn not to always be the last person through the door, literally, then figuratively. You build on it.

[@behroozshahdaftar4209]

@@Cornusnuttallii Thank you, Friend. It's also challenging because at times, echoism is so ingrained that it goes unnoticed. It can feel like "this is just how things are!"

[@LilyTheDoll]

Omfg i suffer from echoism

[@_Trakman]

why create the label echoism - when we already have "codependency"..

[@cloudwalker8266]

Sounds like academics have been too busy trying to make a name for themselves by trying to put a finer point on a behavior that's already been defined as a fawn response. IMHO, this term doesn't add any value to the already overwhelming topic of trauma, which most therapists don't understand as it is. I don't see how this adds any value to the current literature. Their time would be better spent on educating mental health professionals how to treat C-PTSD. In my experience, 9/10 therapists can't even recognize it when it's staring them in the face.

[@absolute3112]

this is ruining my life