Why Star Wars space combat is so weird

[@EckhartsLadder]

New channel mentioned in the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/apengHSMq9yMqcU

[@Anon33467]

Star Wars vessels go exactly as fast as is necessary for the scene to happen.

[@christovog]

Star Trek too

[@mattm8870]

Yep and the same applies to accuracy and range of weapons its all based on the need of the need of the plot.

[@andrewmalinowski6673]

To quote J. Michael Stryczynski's response on how fast the Starfuries are in Babylon 5; "They're as fast as the plot requires."

[@NCC1371]

Same goes for Chris Prat. Outrunning dinos on foot then those same dinos keep up with him on a motorcycle.

[@radagastdk]

A Star Wars vessel is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when it means to.

[@NCR-National-Reclamation-Gov]

Then we have Warhammer where ramming is considered a regular tactic

[@zuephillips3450]

they literally design their ships to ram though... so it is a " regular" tactic.

[@InvictusMatrix]

Though at the same time, the tabletop battlefleet gothic depicts space combat happening at tens of thousands of kilometers

[@NiteshadeX2]

​@@InvictusMatrix because their ships are *really* durable. They'll start firing on each other from 10k km away and fly close enough to broadside and boarding action each other before taking lethal damage.

[@InvictusMatrix]

@@NiteshadeX2 Yeah, it's a combination of void shields, armor, and sheer mass because their smallest ships are a mile long

[@manty5]

@@InvictusMatrix and the fact that they have frigging SPACE MARINES inside. Anything else short of droids wouldn't survive the deceleration.

[@davidponseigo8811]

10 light minutes is further than the Earth to the Sun and there is no way turbolasers have that kind of range.

[@cliffcorson4000]

Earth is 8.3 light minutes away from the sun. Mars is 13 light minutes away from the sun now in Star wars universe it might be different. I often said to some that while we think Han's statement of the Falcon doing the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs it might be a different measure than we use. in RW instances a long standing treaty problem the US had with Mexico was the border. The US wanted the border to be on the Rio Grand river, while Mexico demanded it be on the Rio Bravo river. it wasn't until a diplomat asked their Mexican counterpart where the Rio Bravo river was that they realized it was the same thing

[@OuterAlliance]

For reference earth is 8 light minutes away. Ref 1: Earth is ~91.904 million miles from the sun. Ref 2: Mars is 13 light minutes from the sun and ~4.3 light minutes away from Earth, depending on its location in its orbit.

[@347Jimmy]

At that distance, actual lasers aren't realistically effective lol

[@rossh2386]

@@347Jimmywell no shit we’re in the infancy of that tech

[@cliffcorson4000]

@347Jimmy true However it did say that the long range tracking so it's possible they could refer to long range tracking lasers. The effectiveness of a laser is based on the energy put into it Then again we are also trying to compare our technologies with a universe that has ships in the multi kilometer sizes.

[@williammoore5081]

Star wars isn't hard sci fi. It's sci fantasy. Trying to make sense of everything will just give you a headache.

[@christovog]

Bingo. Also they rarely if ever attempt to explain it

[@Dormul]

I agree. Trying to explain the "science" of Star Wars is a waste of time, in my opinion. I don't think I'd like Star Wars as much if they explained away all of the fantasy elements of that universe.

[@russellharrell2747]

@@Dormulwhen Midichloreans were revealed it was a huge controversy and disappointment for many fans, showing that explaining fantasy elements is not something the fans want.

[@Typhis19]

@@russellharrell2747 I haven't been able to think of Midicloreans the same since Auralnauts did their dubs of the prequels. Thank you magic Trash Can. XD

[@christianellegaard7120]

Swords and sorcery in space.

[@ZontarDow]

I've always written off hyperspace as something where the reason lanes exist and the more travelled ones are faster is because the act of going through hyperspace itself by a ship is what causes that specific part of it to become faster for travel, so tens of thousands of years of lanes being developed by ancient civilizations and then later ones using them has caused a positive feedback loop that has caused the few major lanes that span the entire galaxy to be ludicrously fast and easy to navigate while you still have an entire third of the galaxy that's virtually uncharted, in a setting where for all we know systems adjacent to Corellia itself could be slower to reach then going through the entire Corellian Run.

[@clone4211]

You know, that does actually make some sense. Otherwise you’d expect orbital drift to cause issues with maintaining hyperlanes.

[@michaellane5381]

The funny thing is the entire EU died before we got so much as an Errant black hole crossing a major hyperlane mentioned like a tree across an important interstate... Wild.

[@MarkoDash]

something like a 'hyperspace wake' that exerts an infinitesimally small force perpendicular to the direction of travel, that after centuries of millions of ships zipping around has pushed away anything that isn't big enough to have it's own gravity well. edit: holy crap, turns out the term 'hyperspace wake' already exists in legends. it's mentioned in Kotor by Canderous as how they tracked the Vong probe to the edge of the galaxy. so you really might be onto something here.

[@Wraithspartan]

I always got the idea that hyperspace lanes were invented as a game mechanic, since a lot of what we know about them is from a sourcebook for a game. In that context, they make sense; but in general, it gets dicey due to galactic orbital dynamics.

[@2mccue4u27]

Because it's fun. WWII naval but space.

[@IluminousOne-9.7.2]

Screw 3d, we doin Battleships but futuristic!

[@tetravega567]

"Why is space combat always 2d naval?" Because they're Ships not Planes

[@invadegreece9281]

You should check out Space Battleship Yamato me thinks lol

[@aduantas]

ww2 naval combat had already moved past broadsides, this is pirate era combat lol

[@Darius-scifieart]

In terms of ship to ship combat it's not world war II. Or EVEN ONE. Most capital ships in Star wars are pre-dreadnoughts And they fight like ships in the age of sail. A large capital ship like a star destroyer has dozens of tiny little turrets that are nearly invisible when you zoom out with none breaking the silhouette. You see this in basically every Sci-Fi IP sadly. I'd love to see a series where capital ships are proper dreadnoughts. With only a main battery of a dozen or so guns, each a half a kilometer long, firing projectiles the size of a seven story building that hit with the kinetic energy of a 1000MT nuke. With Star wars though the reason they didn't do this is obvious, the design of the silhouette of a star destroyer is more intended to resemble a modern aircraft carrier. Long and flat with a raised bridge and many oval doors on the side for moving fighters

[@ninjalectualx]

There was one book (in NJO I think) where the author says the fighters are flying nearly the speed of light, it was completely insane. Someone in the chat brought it up in one of your podcasts so I know I didn't hallucinate this lol

[@darthbane3937]

The Revenge of the Sith Stover novel said that Anakin and Obi were flying their fighters at a respectable fraction of the speed of light.

[@matthew____879]

One thing to consider is that there can be a huge difference between maximum range and effective range when you are dealing with a stationary target like a planet vs a maneuvering spaceship

[@AlexTekle]

A scifi series that gets maximalist scale correctly I think is Legend of the Galactic Heroes. While space combat is far more grounded, fleets are measured in the thousands and every battle is essentially a Battle of Coruscant.

[@wolfgangervin2582]

Napoleonic warfare in space works shockingly well.

[@sulljoh1]

Mine one medium sized asteroid in our solar system You could build millions of super star destroyer-sized metal objects

[@ThommyofThenn]

For the uninitiated, that's the anime that certain intellectuals post on e-forums or " imageboards," in order to use the subtitled image to add context to their posts or insult another person's post. As such, these are called "reaction images"

[@SephirothRyu]

​@@ThommyofThenn For the ACTUAL uninitiated, people will do this with any screencap that they think is "memeable" from ANY anime. Or for that matter, western cartoons (Skeletor lounging on his side and getting up to walk away is a common one for example).

[@CantankerousDave]

Hah. Try Lensman.

[@Schmidty1701]

I am currently listening to the Thrawn Duology. Didn't realize that Vision of the Future was 26 hours long. I haven't actually read the book in well over a decade, but holy cow, 26 hours is insane

[@EckhartsLadder]

@@Schmidty1701 dang I forgot the audio book was that long!

[@justinlast2lastharder749]

The Duology was supposed to be a Trilogy but they felt it wasn't strong enough to justify a full trilogy, which I agree with as it kind of ends in an underwhelming manner, so it became two Big Books. Two of the longest Star Wars Books. They were almost twice as thick as an X Wing book.

[@katieell4084]

I remember not thinking much of the Thrawn books when I read them like thirty years ago, though I thought Thrawn was pretty cool. How is the narration for these audiobooks? Did they get a good narrator like the LOTR books?

[@Schmidty1701]

​@katieell4084 the Narrators name is Marc Thompson, and he is PHENOMENAL. He does a voice for every character, and while his female voices are "eehhh", his male voices are on point. I would definitely give anybody the books he narrates a listen to

[@playframe6231]

the dumbest thing about the SW universe is that they treat planets as cities. All planets have the same environment and all events involve the same few people. It would even be constrained in terms of one planet, let alone a galaxy

[@Kurayamiblack]

Not all of them. Naboo had a fun separation between the cities, the swamps, and the Gungan's underwater homes as well as an oceanic ecosystem of horror... I think there are 2 main reasons why planets feel like cities in Star Wars: 1 - There's only a handful of important places on the planet that the plot tends to require people to go to. So you keep seeing the same people and same places over and over, especially since Star Wars seems to lack any kind of regional disputes between dominant powers on a single planet. 2 - Coruscant specifically is an important place to go to and the whole planet is literally one big city 😅 That place is gonna look the same no matter where you land lol

[@e-1074]

to be fair its like that here, mars is just a desert

[@John_Duster]

@@e-1074pretty much We have no planets as a reference to use in sc fi which makes planets in space films look boring

[@JohnNathanShopper]

Starfighters of Adumer had the best balance of hard sci-fi scale and dogfighting tomfoolery. They had hundreds of fighters lining up and dumping their torpedoes in unison at three Star Destroyers, and while they won, they only severely damaged one ship and scared off the fleet. It was a great balance of scale and fighter-centric action.

[@zuephillips3450]

there is no hard sci fi in starwars.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

@ ECHenry made an interesting argument that Star Wars was a bit hard-sci-fi for 1977 because the Death Star had to clear the gas giant. But yeah, dogfights in space at 200Kph is far from hard sci fi

[@InvictusMatrix]

​@@JohnNathanShopper So basically it _was_ hard sci-fi for the time it was made in, and then the science got harder

[@JohnNathanShopper]

@@InvictusMatrix 😂 You got a point. I recommend that ECHenry video either way. It’s a lot of fun.

[@justinlast2lastharder749]

The emtire Series was Perfect Star Wars. The only time it got slightly "off the rails" was the Battle of Thyferra and even that made a lot of sense how they did it. Stackpole and Allston are legends. I think Allston died regrettably.

[@lasarith2]

2:19 whoever wrote that , must have thought 10 light minutes sounds cool without knowing anything about physics.

[@Red-Brush]

I mean... They're lasers... They're literally light. It makes more sense for a fight to be held at that distance, even with TODAYS technology. Again tho, it's a sci-fantasy, it's not that important.

[@alfredkugler3043]

I found a way to actually calculate the speed of SW ships. If you go to the Wookipedia and look up the Tie/Defender, you get its acceleration in G (4,220) and in MGLT/S(21), as well as a top speed in MGLT (144). That means it reaches top speed in 6.85 seconds. That gives it a top speed of 283480 m/s, or 283.5 km/s. That means 1 MGLT ~ 2km/s. Now we can calculate all the other ships... for example the X-Wing with 100 MGLT ~ 200km/s, the A-wing with 120 MGLT ~ 240km/s. An ISD has roughly 120km/s, a Nebulon B 80km/s, and a CR90 the same as an ISD.

[@jonathontoney2338]

This is simple folks, we have supersonic speeds we don't fight at supersonic because the stresses on the machines and the pilots as well as managing reaction times to the speeds. Just cause you can go 2000km per second doesn't mean its a good idea to try and do ariel dog fights at that speed. The reason the trench run would be slower is the need to dodge towers and other things and the walls of the trench being barely wider than the fighters. Ever hit a bump at 100mph? Well lets just say its far harder to react to that bump and maintain your lane at higher speeds. Not to mention they were flying in formations, look at the blue angels they have to practice a ton to fly so close at high speeds and they arent doing mach27. Weapons fall in the same thing, there is MAX ranges and then what they are actually suggested for to be accurate in a fight. A blaster bolt may fire 10km but if it has next to no power when it gets to that range would you suggest fighting at 10km?

[@petergray2712]

The stress of supersonic combat is only a problem in an atmosphere. In a vacuum and low gravity, the stress of supersonic flight is barely noticeable. In fact, most objects orbiting in low earth orbit (LEO) are traveling at hypersonic speed, making a single transit within approximately 90 minutes. Star Wars is weird for ignoring actual ship velocities to attain WW2 atyle space combat

[@tendracalrissian8820]

​@@petergray2712I think you missed the point. An object travelling in a straight line, and an orbit qualifies (generally), experiences very little stress; any ship attempting to manoeuver swiftly enough for the kind of combat we see in Star Wars at those speeds would certainly experience incredible stresses. Inertia is a thing, you know.

[@LupusVirTV]

​@@petergray2712 Not stress from the speed itself, stress from the ∆V, the change in velocity. You can't dogfight at super high speeds because you can't change direction at super high speeds with your pilot remaining conscious. At even higher speeds, you can't do it with your pilot remaining non-liquid. Similarly, you can't get to those super high speeds quickly without killing your pilot, and you can't slow back down quickly either. The ship itself would fare better, but would still tear itself apart trying to maneuver at high enough speeds.

[@petergray2712]

@LupusVirTV Meaningless in a space environment. IRL Spacecraft have to maneuver in straight vector lines because of the lack of an intervening braking medium. There is no such thing as "dogfighting" in space. This is the first big problem of space combat as depicted in science fiction.

[@mattmmilli8287]

@@petergray2712Babylon 5 ships were designed around this. You’re not wrong

[@DashsChannel]

03:02 We need a cone ship and a torus ship next to the Death Star and the Borg Cube to complete the collection.

[@nickl7488]

movie depictions of real life combat also greatly reduce the range and spacing to fit more stuff on screen, it's an artefact of the nature of how things work on screen, so we shouldn't expect what's shown to be lore accurate

[@MrRurounismc]

As far as I know only the Expanse did the absolute insane distance thing and did it well. and even they had ultra close up battles too.

[@DisFantasy]

I've thought for awhile that starfighters break the setting. They're there to give big damn hero moments to protagonists, and ultimately end up making large capital ships glorified targets. For the sake of space superiority, there's no reason anyone would ever use anything other than fighters because they drastically outperform everything for cost and scale. Lbs. for lbs. the Falcon is the most powerful ship in the franchise.

[@DarthVoxyn]

Uh you are forgetting about the Suncrusher.

[@silvussol8966]

Until the various shipbuilding societies figure out how to actually put point defense pulse lasers on their capital ships. All of those fighters will quickly become floating scrapheaps.

[@DisFantasy]

@@silvussol8966 The problem is armor and shields which are meant to protect against other capital ships should absolutely shut down any starfighter/bomber attack. Following the WW2 logic, starfighter laser cannons ought to be analogous to a 20/30 mm cannon, which will basically do nothing against a warship aside from maybe killing some unlucky crew on the deck. Any armored turret will be virtually invincible short of a bomb that weighs hundreds of lbs being dropped on them, but in Star Wars, a fighter will zip around blowing up turrets with a single shot, while having armor and shields that can withstand multiple hits from said turrets. Like it's a fucking video game.

[@zionmarcelo]

@@DisFantasy yep, this is a big STUPID on SW space combat, there's no way those fighters can penetrate capital ship shields and armor, also the targeting computers of the capital ships are so dumb they can't hit the fighters

[@silvussol8966]

@@zionmarcelo - Also the ships should be firing at eachother from much much greater ranges. Instead of waiting until they are so close they are practically at point-blank range. Also the ship movement and orbital mechanics are off, but that’s why Star Wars is space fantasy rather than hard a sci-fi like The Expanse.

[@geraldsmith5791]

I am a retired imperial navy artillery officer on a venator class star destroyer, destroying a target at ten light min away isn’t as difficult as you would think. It’s more about where the target will be when the laser bolt reaches it than where it is now. Plus, remember that laser bolts travel at light speed. So hitting the target is more about tracking than distance.

[@sulljoh1]

6:10 If you want a comprehensive Legends read: 1) Truce at Bakura 2) X-Wing Series (6 - up to Iron Fist) 3) Courtship of Princess Leia 4) Thrawn Trilogy (3) **skip Isard's Revenge* 5) Jedi Academy Trilogy (3) and/or 6) I, Jedi 7) Black Fleet Crisis (3) 8) Corellian Trilogy (3) 9) Hand of Thrawn Duology (2) 10) Survivor's Quest Then you should be ready for The New Jedi Order series (16)

[@emilspegel9677]

They definately have the sensor range to track targets at such distances, although I have always questioned the 10lm quote. It may well be that a turbolaser is theoretically accurate enough to hit a target at such range, under superideal conditions. The computing power should be there considering their ability to calculate precision hyperspace jumps. In reality however things like jamming, enemy sensors, mechanical innacuracy in the mount, manouvres from both vessels, minor variations in beam composition and other problems drastically reduce this range.

[@Red-Brush]

Consider this. Maybe the star destroyers totally absolutely are expert at long-range fighting. Maybe that's why we always see the rebels so close. Maybe they're exploiting a weakness on the Empire that way.

[@emilspegel9677]

@@Red-Brush May well be an big factor, Star destroyers seem to be equipped to do two things well, planetary bombardment and artilery diels with other vessels of similar or greater size. As you say the rebels seem to prefer smaller, faster vessels in their lineup which imperial guns have a difficult time with.

[@Red-Brush]

@emilspegel9677 it's at least a somewhat reasonable answer lol, as long as it looks good I'm happy. But super interesting.

[@michaelcollier3893]

1:40 wait, WHAT?? 10 light-minutes is 111.7 million miles. They're saying a Venator orbiting Earth could hit a ship 18 million miles on the OTHER SIDE of the sun? No. Just...no.

[@sulljoh1]

They seem to be taking the universe too seriously. IRL some hot plasma packet could fly until it cooled down from radiation. That's not how battles look in the shows

[@chrisheitstuman6360]

There are a number of reasons that it could. The first being that the target is stationary. Hitting a target and hitting a moving target are two different things. We are dealing with a realm where computers are sophisticated enough to fly a ship at beyond lightspeed through the minefield of a galaxy and not run into things. It's not much of a stretch to think the targeting computers can be that precise. For a movie, it's hard to make an admittedly younger audience (literally mostly made for kids), and make it exciting when you are shooting at points of light off in the distance that is actually a ship a thousand meters long. Is it any worse than looking at gravity manipulating devices and saying a fighter can't take (and not paste its pilot into a blood explosion and imbed them into the seat) at 3000g or a missile with the acceleration of 10000g, yes that would be 9800 kilometers per second...per second. This is why I am a big stickler of authors having a clue about what they are writing, they literally start breaking the universe by accident. The Discord missile ( the one that chased Obi-wan and Anakin in Episode 3) has a theoretical straight line engagement range of something like 9 times the distance as from earth to the moon, though this is from memory and I would have to run the numbers again to be sure of the distance. And then the missile would continue on at stupid speed on its last course until it blundered into something, even though it wouldn't be able to maneuver anymore.

[@warellis]

I could see it hitting if say the target is just standing still. But only if the target is like standing still and the Venator has information on their EXACT position. For example in Mass Effect 3, if the quarians win over the geth, the Codex text mentions that because the geth ships were moving predictably and generally not manuevering after their hive mind was mostly wiped out, the quarians were able to fire on them from the other side of the sun via using the star's gravity as a slingshot: *After the quarians eliminated the Reaper, the geth's processing power dropped precipitously and their bandwidth became clogged with queries for new instructions. Quarian fighters reported the exact positions of geth ships so that the liveships could fire safely on the geth from the far side of Tikkun, using the star's gravity as a slingshot. The geth command-and-control network was now in tatters, their forces separated by vast distances. The quarians hunted them like animals. It was not a one-sided victory -- despite vast losses, the geth staged a tireless defense -- but it was final.*

[@VikCachat]

​@@warellisships are never sitting still in space, they could be ballistic or not accelerating but it will still be moving, most likely orbiting a body within the system or at rest relative another object like a space station or shipyard but that object and the ship are still moving. Granted the target will be on predictable trajectory assuming nothing changes.

[@warellis]

@VikCachat Yeah that's what I meant. Like in an easily predictable ballistic trajectory where the target isn't trying to manuever or anything. Like I can see 10 light minutes being a max range for a turbolaser, but not really an "effective range."

[@SephirothRyu]

For going beyond the galaxy, aside from it maybe being harder due to something about extragalactic space, also keep in mind that starships use various kinds of fuel, though it doesn't get brought up much beyond mentioning the reactor and some sources like that the falcon uses some sort of liquid metal as a fuel or something (I don't know if for power or as its propellant). An issue with leaving the galaxy could simply involve there not being places to get fuel.

[@matthewneuendorf5763]

I've always held to the theory that Star Wars "space" is actually full of flogiston or aether or interstellar medium or whatever. It explains most of the strange behavior of SW space ships generally and combat particularly. I wonder if ships have a "cruise" mode which pushes their velocity to extremely high values at which no living creature could reasonably maneuver (such as the rate of closure with the first Death Star at Yavin), but switch to "standard" mode when they reach a target area so that the pilot can actually react and command the vessel. Jedi being superior pilots could be explained in party by the force allowing them to push the envelope with regard to the velocity and maneuvering limiters which "standard" mode would normally impose.

[@tombraiderstrums09]

The standard SW hand-wave for such things is the “inertial compensator,” which magically makes any and all space maneuvers survivable by humans. They’re all over NJO and always set to somewhere between 95 and 99 percent.

[@LastGoatKnight]

Well, I have noticed something interesting, regarding the Original trilogy. Everyone thinks that the TIE fighters are based on the Japanese Mitsubishi A6M Raisen or better known as Zero. However, the Zeros had a very long range, while TIEs are called short range fighters. So I found a better alternative to the base of the TIE fighters: the I-16 Ishak. The 'Mule' was a short range, wide but compact fighter in the USSR Air Force. It had similar but not as good manouvering capability as a Zero but it looks more similar to the TIE than the A6M. Especially from the front.

[@facelesscleric2744]

#askeck Got a Halo question. We see injured spartans with cybernetic limbs but not regular humans. Are these mechanical limbs just as powerful as a spartans biological limbs and if they are then why didn't humanity cybernetically augment all their marines into being pseudo-spartans?

[@kleptomaticagain]

i’m not eck but cybernetic limbs have much more upkeepmaintenance than biological limbs do Muscles can also continue to grow stronger, whereas cybernetics have a fixed strength

[@GrandInfernoElite]

Best case scenario, the mechanical limbs would be as strong as their biological limbs; because any stronger and their bones wouldn't be able to handle the strain at the skeletal/mechanical connection. But i think much of a spartan's strength comes from their armor, they're still super strong compared to normal humans, but not flip a tank strong.

[@michaellane5381]

5:14 you definitely want to learn a little about Lukes FIRST class of Jedi, Coran Horn, Kyle Katarn(less important than the others as his is less detailed due to game integration ambiguity, he is perfectly represented in NJO as awesome), and Leia and Hans children, "Courtship of Princess Leia" and "I, Jedi" gives the basis of "YJK" and "JJK". (SLIGHT SPOILERS AHEAD) The "Rogue Squadron" books fill out Coran's extended family and Wedge(as well as other VIP's) Kyle Katarn is all in the Jedi Knight video game series(starts with Dark Forces that had a recent remake, continues through the Jedi Academy games). The other honorable mentions are "Han Solo adventures" for Chewies background The thing with NJO is it has deaths that deeply affect the extended Solo family and most of that backstory is great to have to see why that was particularly devastating... You will also likely be served by reading ANYTHING with Mara Jade set before NJO, her character undergoes most of its trials that occur post relationship in NJO itself so her introduction is mainly what you want.

[@Gary-zq3pz]

I like how the big ships Always get really close so they can exchange broadsides. 'Gentlemen, let us be truly grateful for what we are about to recieve.' would be a BEAUTIFUL line for one of the Star Wars movies.

[@DavidVincent-f5l]

Was anyone else a little confused when he was listing off the books at the big 24 or 26 screen. There was no highlight box around listed books as being announced.

[@PsychotoasterProd]

I remember, ages and ages ago, someone asked JMS why the starfighter combat in B5 was out-the-viewport dogfighter range when everything else about the spaceships in the show was more realistic. JMS responded that yes, capital ships would be shooting at each other a vast distances, but that would be boring. So the dogfights were a concession to the Rule of Cool.

[@justinlast2lastharder749]

For ANYONE wanting to get interested in Star Wars Books. Start with Rogue Squadron. Read through the X Wing Series and THEN go to things like Thrawn. Its the best of the Books and Wedge, Corran, Wraiths are the best characters in any of the books. It will make you want more and its where the signatures "Star Wars Book Tone" was set.

[@duncanmcgee13]

10 light minutes is about halfway between Earth and Mars from the Sun. Being able to track targets at that range seems both plausible and skeptical.

[@ninjalectualx]

Implausible, you mean? You would have 10 minutes to take evasive action, it's basically impossible

[@duncanmcgee13]

@ hey i said track not fire upon lol

[@sulljoh1]

"Evasive action!!" *ship dives hard* 10 minutes later - "is quiet.."

[@Codraroll]

@@ninjalectualx In long-range naval combat, there often would be a couple of minutes between the guns being fired and shells landing. With both ships being in motion at the time, the trick was mostly a matter of firing where you thought the enemy would be at the time the shells landed.

[@wernerviehhauser94]

​@@ninjalectualx well, you see them firing the instant the lasers hit you, so no, you don't. You would fly random zigzag convoy pattern.

[@jtjames79]

The Star Wars Galaxy has more luminiferous aether. That's why fighters fly around like world War II aircraft. While aerodynamics doesn't matter in space even in Star Wars, there's still a local maximum speed due to non-arodynamic drag.

[@ThommyofThenn]

@@jtjames79 the electricity of the universe charges their solar panels!

[@chriscollen6543]

The X-Wing series is an all time favorite collection of mine

[@HECKproductions]

it can be summed up really simply: they pretend that space fighters are flying in atmosphere instead of in vacuum and in zero g

[@Elderrion]

I found that, especially for a scientifically inept person like myself, it's easier to write star wars space combat if you rely on past tactics rather than logical future/undeveloped tactics. To be more specific: WWII dogfights for starfighters, Age of sail/pre-dreadnought naval combat for capital ships. It's not perfect, but it's functional.

[@eugenekim-ono8141]

#askeck Is it just me, or are light gunships (Millennium Falcon, Ghost, etc.) utterly busted? They can obliterate fighters with light to heavy laser cannons, but can also tank them, while being able to dodge turbolasers (even the light ones on a CR-90) & maybe torpedoes.

[@JohnyG29]

The power of turbo lasers primarily depends on the plot armour of the target.

[@jaketheripper7385]

One thing to note is that modern dogfights actually tend to take place well beyond visual range. When you see dogfights between aircraft in the movies, they appear close enough to be popping off shots from the cockpit with their sidearms lol. This is just for filmmaking purposes so that both aircraft can appear in-frame. Modern dogfights are often completed using air-to-air missiles and electronic warfare systems that are capable of tracking and eliminating targets at distances of up to 120 miles with long range missiles. IR missiles such as the AIM-9 are usually fired at distances of 1 to 2 miles, but these days if an enemy aircraft has managed to invade our airspace and get that close to one of our modern 5th Gen fighters, then something has seriously gone wrong because the electronic warfare capabilities of US fighter aircraft and our other defense systems should have intercepted and/or neutralized the threat well before then. These days if modern fighters are involved in a dogfight or enemy interception, they're going to have tracked the target, pinged a lock, launched a radar-guided missile, and gtfo before the enemy even knows they've been lit up.

[@wolfgangervin2582]

In case you're curious, the outro song is Don't Think, Play from the Mr. Bones OST. The game can be pretty janky, but it's gotta lot of charm, and the soundtrack has some absoulte gems. I'm shocked to see it here of all places.

[@Sigismund-von-Luxembourg]

Xeelee Sequence has some of the best space combat but that is also a hard science fiction setting. It generally also involves a lot of weaponized time travel.

[@michaelanderson2166]

I miss the corgi...

[@sulljoh1]

And the music

[@chloedance9316]

Nice to see some love for The Courtship of Princess Leia. One of the best

[@1KosovoJeSrbija1]

the thing about starwars, is that it's fundamentally grounded in cinema, so everything looks amazing but might not make too much sense mechanically one nice thing about 40k, especially in space combat, is that it's based in tabletop games, so everything is designed to make sense mechanically

[@noalowenstein6741]

If you think about it, most of a capital ship's weapons are located on the dorsal hull, meaning that rather than broadsides they should have topsides where two ships fire upwards at each other

[@Molfra]

Day twenty eight of asking Eck my question: #AskEck Why do you think the pirates kept grogu, there was quite obviously a bounty on him considering all the hunters with tracking fobes and I doubt they wouldn't have known about it, so we're actually protecting him. My theory is that after he was saved after the purge, so senator or rebel group hired these pirates to protect him, but was eventually captured by the empire or forgot about grogu, (why he was never given to the new republic after the war), and the pirates not knowing he was a jedi just kept and raised him till mando showed up, killed them and stole their kid.

[@Nerds_4_LIfe]

Ive also had this question.

[@Red-jr9qm]

#AskEck Had a few questions I've been wanting to throw into the pool in case they haven't been covered already: 1. If Luke had turned to the dark side during his fight with Vader on the Death Star, how powerful of a Sith would he have become? 2. What if the Yuuzhan Vong War had been adapted into the sequel trilogy? Would that have made for a better story than what we got? 3. Who are the most tragic character deaths in Star Wars for you, and what makes their stories so impactful in your eye? 4. Characters often talked about "balance" in the force. Do you think that was ever achievable by either the Jedi or Sith?

[@eddieford9373]

A basic misunderstanding of both stars and wars.

[@marcusscott5363]

The Bantam Era was really the revival of Star Wars as a whole.

[@saviorselfX29]

#AskEck What’s the deal with Vergere secretly being a Palpatine-trained Sith and concocting a convoluted plot with Lumiya to turn Jacen Solo into Vader 2.0? The Sith reveal never sat right with me, so I’d appreciate your thoughts.

[@everythingissogreen6748]

Tahiri was such a fantastic character. When she was falling with Anakin, was a perfect moment! After the Vong got hold of her, she was never the same. A tragic character that deserved better.

[@timothyvanhoeck233]

The Moon is a little more than 1 light second away; meanwhile, the Sun is a approx 8 light minutes away from Earth, while Neptune is about 4 light hours distant.

[@lestermoonbottom]

To me a list of Star Wars must-read novels isn’t complete without the Han Solo adventures by Bruan Daley. Andor quietly acknowledges its debt to these books, not just in setting and tone but also theme: an insignificant bunch of characters in an insignificant ship wandering a galaxy of trillions, where scrapping beneath the notice of overwhelmingly huge and oppressive systems is the way of life. There’s no mention of Skywalkers, no @$&! jedi soap operas, and very little Empire as a matter of fact-and these things open up the universe, rather than constrict it into a story about a handful of magical main characters. It’s the direction extended Star Wars lore should have taken all along, IMHO.

[@n1ckyh1ck9y]

Young Jedi knights was the peak Star wars for me. When Jason found his lightsaber crystal in the gas of bespin I lost my shit

[@AllPowerfulMax]

Thanks! Been thinking about that question a lot after reading the X-Wing books and Alphabet Squadron trilogy, and even when we're talking about several km distances it still feels like a lot compared to what we see on screen

[@theromanorder]

Please do a video on armor and sheld ratings, Or more tactics...

[@CitiesTurnedToDust]

I learned from. Star Wars that space is about 1 mile wide and barely big enough for 3 or 4 ships to fit into

[@tatepalmer1997]

Factions compared idea sci fi insect swarm. Such as Tyranids, Arachnids, Zerg, Rachni, Terminids.

[@thebeakershow]

I always love taking a walk down memory lane with the Rogues

[@anotherfacelessname9270]

I think even if you do believe Star Wars scale is vastly bigger than it is, ten-light minutes is still ludicrous! That's more than 2/3 of the distance to the sun! I think that whoever chose that measurement didn't quite realize how far a light minute would actually be. It's understandable.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

No Shadows of Mindor? Shadows of Mindor was weird but it was a love letter to Bantam Era fans!

[@racer2k704]

Eck back at it again!!

[@frogsaup]

I think the asteroid shot could be explained as a really high, max power shot from a turbolaser, and purposefully aimed at the rock to make sort of a flak effect.

[@TD-zs2nc]

Glad the dog's back for the ending card.

[@earlgrey038]

In my opinion, the vessels are sticking to that speed because: 1) it would be harder to pilot them properly (the pilot's reaction speed has physical limits) 2) it would be hard for a viewer to realize what's going on in the scene

[@DracoStarcloud]

You have to read Courtship of Princess Leia if only because of Threepio's song.

[@harpercmp]

I like to think about space in a star wars setting being that the more objects are in the space the slower the ships move. i.e. empty space = no distance and the higher the mass density is in a region the further apart objective distance is. I haven't done the math to calculate how that compares to earth space time relationships though.

[@TraceEx]

#askeck if you were in charge of a squadron of 12 ships, what ships would they be, what would the squadron name be, and what would they specialize in? As always love the videos.

[@Vidiocity92]

If anyone wants to read anything in Legends, there's a "Reader's Companion" book which does a seemingly comprehensive job at summarizing every film, novel, and short story. So if you wanted to know what the galaxy looked like before NJO, 26 pages might be easier than 26 books lol

[@walterward3811]

I never understood why star destroyers didn't form up belly to belly. They could cover each other so much more effectively.

[@theMedicatedCitizen]

Man, I haven't read those X-Wing books in over 25 years... So many awesome Star Wars books, pre-Disney debacle

[@TomK_421]

What to read before NJO? Read it all. It's fun

[@jsnotlout3312]

I love these videos

[@Gary-zq3pz]

I can see stormtroopers manhandling a brass ten pounder into place and firing it, then reloading with black powder and iron grapeshot then wrestling it back to the gunport in the side of the star destroyer for another shot at the x-wings.

[@jayburn00]

I think the 10 light minutes could work if its for a planetary bombardment, but nothing else where a target can move unpredictably.

[@NineToFiveGamerUC0079]

I read so many of these as a kid! I miss Young Jedi Knights.

[@toxictony4230]

With the opening scenes of Revenge of the Sith not withstanding, Space battles seem to be played out in the same way are Naval battles, in that all capitol ships are on the same plane pummling each other. on the other hand fighters resort to the 3-D arena of air to air dogfights. This is because people in general are used to this way of things. As for lasers hitting targets at 10 light minutes, it is a mighty distance, but occasionally airial or rather planetary bombardment is a thing and I suspect that sort of range is required for such an action to play out. People like sci-fi, but it has to have one foot in the familiar to make things not only real, but believeable. A point in case is the old Flash Gordon series for the 1930's, where the rocket engine was a big old diesel engine.

[@Grimlock794]

They fly at plot speed.

[@bikkiikun]

Another fun fact, the International Space Station moves at about 8 km/s... that's almost 29,000 km/h (yes, twenty-nine-THOUSAND kilometres per hour). Voyager 1 moves at 17 km/s (61,000 km/h), Voyager 2 at 15km/h (54,000 km/h). Capital ships in Starwars are likely to be MUCH faster (travelling at sublight) than space probes from 50 years ago. And fighter craft even faster than that.

[@death2twinkys]

Fwiw I, jedi is one of my all time favorite books... Probably a lot of it is nostalgia but I do read it occasionally

[@940825151]

Always thought a good indication of the speed their ships are going at (when not just blasting away across a solar system i suppose) is how in the last jedi Poe needs a special rocket enginge to cross the 60 or kms between the rebel fleet and the siege dreadnaught, which takes him around 10 seconds. (got the distance from knowing how large the dreadnaught is, then just estimating how many times that is between poe and the ship)

[@jediknight8886]

#AskEck You should cover the recent UFO congressional hearing that happened on the 13th, I quite enjoyed the last video that you did on the Grusch hearing from last year and would be interested to see you cover any further hearings!

[@thedoctor4637]

A hard thing to ignore when talking about spaceship speeds is there is no terminal velocity due to no “air” resistance, unless there is in the SW universe. But I assume, but don’t like this idea, that ships coast in order to remain under their save maneuvering speed and there are different thrust-to-weight ratios for ships.

[@FattyMcFox]

There is also the "What you can see vs What you can hit" the long range tracking mode of a Venator turbolaser could track a target 10 light minutes away, but then that info is 10 minutes out of date by the time you get it, and Turbo-laser and blaster fire don't travel at lightspeed anyway. If the 10 Light minute target is sitting still, and not moving at all, a shot from a capital ship turbolaser would take a long time ( i ain't doing the precise calculations ) to get there at hit the target. Cause i am pretty sure the speed of light is not 44 miles per hour like some of the shots seem to travel at, and since we can and the characters in universe can see them coming and dodge the speed of light CAN'T be that slow in universe.

[@justicetaylor3050]

I think it'd be interesting if there was at least one faction that tried alternatives to turbo lasers besides the CIS who just finds out the hard way that they'll go broke trying to fight with extremely long ranged missiles and have to quickly retro fit back to turbo lasers after running out of ammo. Probably a faction less competent than the Mandalorians.

[@sageoz9886]

Most realistic space battles I’ve ever seen is in The Expanse

[@AlexDryga]

Simple answer made to look like ww2

[@thecactusman17]

I'd actually say made to look like something shortly before WW1 with everything in relatively close visual range. The dogfight fighter combat was made to look like WW2.

[@ninjalectualx]

Simple but boring, in-universe explanations are more fun

[@jannegrey]

@@thecactusman17 I'd partially agree, though more like amalgamation of WW1, Interwar Period, WW2 and even some very early Cold War, including Korean War (though only barely and I understand if people prefer to think that only Jets from WW2 are referenced a bit in fastest fighters, though to me it looks like fighters that are able to dodge the ship Turbolasers are callback to Jets in Korean War - because this is where even radar-controlled AA went from very capable to incapable of shooting down enemies). There is also a lot of influence from Vietnam, but not in space battles, but ground battles. IDK why you chose "shortly before WW1" - yes there were some wars in which planes were used, but their tactics and armaments didn't change with WW1 starting. It was throughout WW1 where changes happened, but when it comes to distances in which guns were effective... barring few improvements there was very little that changed even in WW2 compared to pre-WW1 era. We're still talking dogfights on the distance of several hundred meters at most to be effective. And maybe a kilometer against bombers. Not to mention "Targeting Computers" look like mechanical dials that allowed you to get distance, size and lead for specific target automatically during WW2. This is of course mostly based on planes and their resemblance to Star Wars space fighters. There is a lot of influence from ships as well, in which case certain specific stuff will go back between 1880's and just after WW2. And yes, one could write a whole book about it and not exhaust the topic :)

[@wargeneralbonez]

#AskEck The Turbo Tank is not only awesome but also useful yet for some dumb and unexplained reason it's never given more importance nor is it given a lot of screen time followed by it not being utilized well on screen so what's up with that? WHY EVEN ADD THIS VEHICLE WHEN THEY'RE NOT EVEN GONNA USE IT RIGHT!!!???

[@BlueBoxRevan]

I would like to think that Star Wars weapons works based off of plasma. The closer the target the more devastating the shot. The further away the less impactful the shot. The exceptions being for sniper rifles designed to compensate for that, and the Death Star which channels god like power. It would also explain why certain ships prefer using missiles over torpedoes, as missiles don't degrade over distance. Where torpedoes require a close range to be effective. But are still pretty darn effective even at long range.

[@mr.e1026]

One thought I had on starfighter combat is, let's assume the actual speeds were like, say, 6,000mph. On earth, dogfighting usually would occur circa 21st century between MACH 0.6 and MACH 2.0. Now, I am perfectly well aware that in that context, we're talking 500mph to almost 2,000mph, and if you start putting pilots through enough gravitational force, they black out. In space, that amount required in a vacuum would be far less, and since it really isn't using rocket propulsion, it also isn't using correcting jets to manipulate the direction of the craft, suggesting to me that there is some gravity on board the ship (thus, subjecting the pilots to the rigors of gravitational force in maneuvers, also). In the PSX games Wing Commander 3 and 4, the on board targeting computers for the guns did a lead angle of attack where the computer would relay to the pilot where they would need to be aiming in order for the shot to hit the targeted enemy spacecraft. Those craft are actually traveling very fast, also. In 3, I remember a mission where you need to protect the Victory, Sheffield, Ajax and Coventry (the 4 capital ships from which you fly fighter protection from) from Kilrathi skip missiles. For those who did not play the game, a skip missile is an extended range capital ship missile, so, it's capable of destroying a capital ship, that will cloak after being fired, and then uncloak long enough to correct its trajectory before cloaking again until it hits the target. Missiles in WC3 are fast, though the skip missile is not as fast, you still need an Arrow IV to catch it, or the Excalibur (which is not yet available), because none of the other ships can catch it. In easy mode, it isn't that difficult, but in harder difficulties, this mission is a wall. If you fail, eventually you'll run out of fuel, or be destroyed. You're picked up by the Kilrathi, and you either tell Thrakkath to screw off, and he rips your heart out, or you die a coward in the disintegration chamber below. In the movie Firefox, it deals with the fictional MiG 31, hypersonic fighter which we see actually outruns cruiser missiles, and sure, as unrealistic as the flight scenes were, they did get a few things right. After Gant is initially attacked by the 2nd Firefox, he pulls up with his craft and does a roll while decelerating, and does a last microsecond extreme bank and the missiles miss him. In that, they show Gant's face, and the flight suit pumping oxygen into the suit in order to keep him from blacking out, which would happen if you subject the pilot to too much force. I don't really see a lot of Star Wars missile munitions that appear to have things like targeting computers, tracking systems, or other onboard controllers to really make them useful or impactful. In the first 6 movies, I think we only actually seen them used by Jango Fett's Slave I while trying to take out Obi-Wan Kenobi over Geonosis in Clones. Blasters and lasers are definitely predominant weapons on them, and yet, they are not all that fast, almost like they really aren't beams of Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission of Radiation, and more like they are accelerated blasts of plasma.

[@Residentevilfan1989]

This actually made sense.

[@Justin-Ver-Ka]

Young Jedi Knights mentioned LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[@AlexDahl]

Lucas himself said multiple times that he wanted ships to engage in close range combat because he thought it was cooler and more cinematic, not because it made more sense... that's why the movies look the way they do.

[@NoHaxJustTaaco]

tmm crazy video

[@sulljoh1]

I like the Ep 3 opening where they seem to have a *boost* speed after the Venator fly over

[@igncom1]

I'm a firm believer that Star Wars is a Crimean War setting, more then a World War setting. It just makes everything make more sense that way.

[@Strideo1]

But what is a starfighter analogue in the Crimean War?

[@igncom1]

@@Strideo1 Torpedo Boats.

[@scifiswordsman]

I'm sad the outro song is gone.

[@AndrewTJ31]

In real life most jet maneuvers are g-force limited due to the squishy pilot limiting what can be done. Furthermore it was found that mach 1.3 was the preferred dogfighting speed during Vietnam even though the planes were able to fly much faster in a straight line. So in a setting like Star Wars where missles lock predominantly from behind and out turning dogfighting is the standard tactic, it actually makes sense for the ship to be optimized to fly at similar speeds to jets. This does assume that WWII tactics like boom and zoom are absent from the universe, but they are not as tension building.

[@techguypaul]

I was watching a short on another channel while I had this video queued up and I thought this had started playing but it was just the short using the same music as you lol