How the Clone Wars Unashamedly DESTROYED These Characters (And So Much Other Lore)

[@nunouno001]

Much like George Lucas, Dave is at his best when working with other writers who help develop his ideas and reign in his worse impulses. If you really love Clone Wars, you should also be thanking Henry Gilroy, Drew Z. Greenberg, Steven Melching, and Katie Lucas and not just giving all the credit to Dave Filoni.

[@StevenZissimos]

I'd also thank Sam Witwer. He called Filoni out when he was about to work on a scene between Anakin and Shmi on Mortis. Anakin was going to tell Shmi that he met a woman, but Dave completely forgot that Padme and Shmi met already. It's a small thing, but it really shows how entrenched Dave is in his own vision to the point where he'll completely forget about scenes within the movies. Yet people regard Filoni as some God of Star Wars. It's a joke.

[@saberiandream316]

@@StevenZissimos I never liked Filoni. He was never one of us. He was never an ally to the EU community.

[@ElKabong3345]

Yeah it's like, people keep giving credit to one person, when it's actually the whole editing staff that Team Work Makes the Dream Work. Fun fact: Creative people can be creative, but sometimes they're so whimsical their ideas are like acid trips, you need someone to smack them back into reality before they "add the extra stupid step that ruins the whole thing"

[@KurokamiNajimi]

@@StevenZissimos Lol dude every author forgets stuff Lucas made Padme die immediately after giving birth even though Leia says in the OT she had memories of her real mother

[@StevenZissimos]

@@KurokamiNajimi okay? That's a criticism towards George then lol

[@creativemarquise6723]

TCW also turned Grievous from a menacing Jedi killer into an "I'll get you next time Gadget" villain of the week.

[@PteranoLiv]

Technically ROTS did it first but your right, they butchered my boi grievous

[@EternalEmperorofZakuul]

​@@PteranoLivtechnically it was before episode 3

[@PteranoLiv]

@@EternalEmperorofZakuul when? What exactly butchered grievous in the EU? I thought he was consistently badass

[@EternalEmperorofZakuul]

@@PteranoLiv it's that he was a bad ass mofo in the EU. Then his lungs were crushed by Mace

[@PteranoLiv]

@ I mean I don’t see how that ruins him but yeah it is a bit anyiclimatic

[@jakeythewatcher]

As a fan and critic of both TCW and the Multi-Media project, thank you for keeping this discussion calm and respectful when some many others don’t.

[@baki484]

This is the only channel with the most balanced take. There are other but they stand out. I'm just glad that Filoni is being called out more and more I'm beginning to think that the Ahsoka series was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@jakeythewatcher true

[@sethwinters3556]

@baki484 yeah I was pretty disappointed with it tbh. And I'm a fan of most of filonis work. Rebels felt like a direct downgrade from TCW as well. I don't have too much qualms with changing certain things from EU as George was always doing that.

[@snackeater4990]

Based I like both. Clone wars is the best star wars era imo

[@Black-White-BW1]

@@snackeater4990 Yes

[@demi-femme4821]

They should've brought Depa falling to the Dark Side over into canon, and also kept her as Kanan's Master. Imagine if when Ezra starts flirting with the Dark Side, Kanan sees the signs and does everything he can to stop it because _he's been through this before._

[@isaackim7675]

Ezra pretty much did flirted with the Dark Side in the earlier episodes of Season 3 of Rebels

[@shaggy1628]

The Kanan comics already subtly reference the events of Shatterpoint. But it's up to your headcanon whether Kanan knows about what happened or not

[@FriendlyBatDoom]

I disagree Faloni would've most likely made Mace the villain and Ahsoka somehow the hero.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@isaackim7675 Indeed- but we didn't have Kanan going "oh shit, here we go again"

[@annaleichliter4171]

Wait, Depa turned to the Dark Side?

[@lopoa126]

So many of the changes could have easily been avoided. Use a different name for whatever planet, or create use a different race of Jedi that hasn't been used before, instead of stealing a name because you are too lazy to use a new one.

[@oriongear2499]

As someone who did grow up with many Clone Wars EU media, I didn’t mind TCW’s existence or the fact that Dave Filoni was behind it, but in hindsight, I definitely think Filoni should’ve had Ahsoka die in Rebels so that her Character Arc could wrap up nicely.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@oriongear2499 i agree there, she should’ve died not during order 66 but in her duel with vader

[@merafirewing6591]

​@@PteranoLiv yeah, it's just so fitting and a good way to go.

[@Xazamas]

One comment pointed out that Ahsoka dying just few days before Revenge of the Sith starts would be the best explanation on why she's never mentioned in the movie. Everyone is still processing it. Would also retroactively add some additional substance to Anakin's "I want to learn how to stop people from dying" -motivation as well.

[@who4440]

Why should she die when she has the potential to be the biggest help for Luke rebuilding the order? It always sounds weird to me when nobody else getting mentioned except Luke for rebuilding the order.

[@impcit5717]

@@who4440that then brings up the issue of where was she in the Sequels. Why didn’t she help prevent the destruction of the Jedi Order at the hands of Kylo Ren?

[@darthmaul4773]

If you’re thinking of doing a part 2, here are some ideas. 1. The drastic change of Quinlan Vos between canon and legends. (SW Republic was goated) 2. Depa Billaba’s change in the new canon (Bad Batch is basically a sequel to TCW) 3. The changing of Grievous to a predator to a coughing and cackling moron. 4. The changing of Mace Windu between the two continuities. (Shatterpoint did wonders for him) 5. Dooku’s depiction in TCW (pure evil) 6. The Clones being radically different in TCW compared to Legends (both are very good) 7. Sora Bulq being present in Grievous Intrigue though he already betrayed Windu by this point 8. Boba Fett and Aurra Sing working together in TCW while Legends has them as rivals in the Boba Fett books. 9. Labyrinth of Evil is rendered non canon by TCW S7 10. The Jedi knowing the Clone Army was created by the Sith. 11. Sifo Dyas’s body was burned in TCW while in Legends it was kept in stasis and frozen and used for a blood transfusion to General Grievous. 12. Anakin knowing of Order 66 due to Fives (that arc was great regardless) 13. The ARC Troopers being little more than promotions in TCW while in Legends they were their own thing. 14. Anakin’s ship is different (in Legends he had a ship called the Azure Angel while in canon he has a yellow Delta ship) 15. Anakin’s mother is almost never brought up in TCW while it is mentioned a few times in the multimedia project. Hope you enjoyed!

[@FMK03]

The Clones in TCW are objectively worse, actually. Here's why from reddit comments of all things: "TCW didn’t fix a single thing in the PT, because everything that was 'fixed' or 'addressed' in TCW weren’t actual issues/problems with the PT. It merely made 'solutions' to things that weren’t problems to begin with. The Clones were already explained with: 'They are TOTALLY OBEDIENT, taking ANY ORDER WITHOUT QUESTION' and 'We MODIFIED their genetic structure to make them LESS INDEPENDENT than the ORIGINAL HOST.' They were portrayed explicitly and specifically as being purely professional with their relationship with the Jedi and were always very machine-like/robot-like/organic robotic in their behavior and character. In addition, TCW, in its changing of the Clones and their behavior and their relationship with the Jedi, created the problem of questioning why the Clones would suddenly betray the Jedi during Order 66. Originally, in both the PT and EU, the Clones were really only loyal to the Republic, and were not only altered to be less independent than Jango, thus being MORE SUGGESTIBLE to propaganda and mental conditioning and indoctrination and brainwashing, they were also ACTUALLY indoctrinated and brainwashed into being strictly obedient to the Republic and the Chancellor. As a result of it creating that problem for itself, TCW then felt the need to justify the Clones turning on the Jedi. In addition, TCW also made the Clones closer with the Jedi, thus needed EVEN MORE of a reason for justifying the Clones turning on the Jedi. All of that lead to the creation of the InhIBiToR cHiP 'justification' or 'explanation'" There are also these comments: "He can, and I can. Anyone who has above casual experience of SW can say that TCW isn't good. Because it isn't good. It's only regarded as such because it's the most accessible Star Wars media. I know this because it was the first SW media I've ever seen. If media like Tales of the Jedi, the Thrawn trilogy, the Darth Bane Trilogy, Republic comics, Republic commando novels, Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, and a ton of other media were more accessible, whether as movies or TV shows, TCW wouldn't be held even nearly in such high regard. TCW has its few good moments but most of the time it's a mediocre Saturday morning cartoon with all the flaws of a such cartoon. Even the parts regarded as 'highlights' of the show don't hold up the more you look at it." "Obviously not, especially since most things I mentioned are novels (and I didn't even mention games which SW also has in abundance). And it's not a franchise where a mediocre Saturday morning cartoon is considered the best it can offer by most people, just because they can't or don't want to read."

[@PteranoLiv]

Good points!

[@darthmaul4773]

@@PteranoLivThanks!

[@josesosa3337]

Recently finished shatterpoint and I LOVED IT. Mace was awesome and you see how the Jedi are afraid of overstepping boundaries and risk falling to the darkside. My favorite part is when Yoda and Mace are talking about how great palpatine is and how its a shame That he's not a Jedi. Clearly its dramatic irony for those who know. Right now I'm halfway Through Medstar 2 Jedi Healer. I really love Baris getting pulled into the darkside. Its crazy That people say That 3d clone wars is dark when we have stories like shatterpoint and Medstar.

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

3. Not the fault of TCW

[@aster4jaden]

I think George is also partially to blame since he oversaw some of these decisions.

[@TaraCicora]

Agreed, older interviews showed that Filoni at least initially tried to respect legends while Lucas could care less. As time has gone on, Filoni's attitude certainly matches Lucas now.

[@aster4jaden]

@@TaraCicora I'm not Filoni's biggest fan, but I do remember George had overall say early in the Series so he must of been fine with the Retcons or they wouldn't have happened.

[@lukescrew1981]

Is that why Filoni went behind his back?

[@TaraCicora]

​@lukescrew1981 when did he do that?

[@BallPlayer17127]

George always said it the shows and movies 1st

[@ArcTrooper269]

Man, I found pretty hypocrit that the same people who are constantly complaining that the Prequel trilogy ruined OG characters like Yoda & Vader are totally OK on how TCW butchered such great & complex characters like Barriss Offee, Quin Lan Vos & General Grievous

[@cowboys8897]

I know!! That's my issue as well. A lot of the criticisms that people apply to the prequels can actually be more applied to tcw. It seems that cause tcw gave people what they wanted or accepted in the prequels, such as Anakin charaziation, that they overlooked that some of the criticisms of pt described tcw more😂😂😂😂

[@PteranoLiv]

Look I think we’ve argued in this comment section before but I have to say very cool pfp deathstroke is very cool

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

Both of those people are wrong

[@ArcTrooper269]

@@PteranoLiv thx, I made it myself 👍

[@agenterojoloquendo9213]

Sumemos que en el detras de la serie cada vez que mencionaban un producto del Proyecto Multimedia o las películas, siempre las trataban como algo "menor" que no le haría un cambio grave segun ellos. Recomiendo el canal de Star Wars Skran que hizo un video al respecto de TCW y su "continuidad" con el UE.

[@yuriboygareth]

The thing that always annoyed me about TCW was that it wanted to have its cake and eat it too. It kept referencing different existing media/stories in the EU, yet were rewriting them instead of around them

[@ChristianMcClaine]

It would’ve been okay if it just rewrote them. But a lot of we’re not for important reasons, like there’s no need for Ki Adi Mundi in The Acolyte or to destroy Quin Lan Vos. I think the only character they helped was Darth Maul.

[@aamirrazak3467]

True if they were going to reference the EU respect that lore don’t overwrite it

[@AJadedLizard]

@@ChristianMcClaine And even then, that wasn't necessary. They had a perfectly serviceable sympathetic villain with Force powers, in the form of Ventress. Maul being brought back is high on my list of worst choices made in TCW, and given that I think most choices TCW made are bad, that's saying quite a lot.

[@creed8712]

@@ChristianMcClaineKi adi being in the acolyte is only a problem if you hold trading cards at the same level of importance as literal things we see on screen

[@KurokamiNajimi]

It's not referencing it's all an alternate version of the story these arguments make 0 sense. Lucas never even gave a bleep about the EU which why TCW being a reset happened

[@mega-bustershepard5537]

I left my heart in the Expanded Universe.

[@JohnLevi-t1w]

So do I. I do not recognize Disney Star Wars as the authoritative source. I only recognize the Expanded Universe as the authoritative source.

[@TYKZY.BRANX._TEEK.SEE.BRANCH.]

TO MEGA-BUSTERSHEPARD5537, ALRiGHT THAT WAZ A NiCE 1 [NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]

[@klaykid117]

It still baffles me that so many Star Wars fans actively WANT Disney to "bring back" the EU. That's insane to me. Disney deciding to not touch any of the old and instead make their own has been the best decision they ever made for the franchise. In an alternate universe there was a storyline about Mara Jade cheating on Luke.

[@TYKZY.BRANX._TEEK.SEE.BRANCH.]

@@klaykid117 i COULD STiLL SEE MARA DOiNG iT [NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]

[@Exar_Kun]

Came to pay my respects because I also left my heart there! Another thing tho, screw that Ulic Qel Droma guy! I took him under my wing and he helped the Jedi trap me in an old stinky alien pyramid!!

[@corrinestenman5683]

The Mortis Gods are ... convenient scapegoats for a lot of the timeline screwiness; I can even see the whole business with them in Season 3 splitting the timeline into three paths, two similar yet distinct paths with fairly minor differences, and a third with greater differences but that shares some key events with the other two. And honestly, the retcon they used to meld the two different versions of Mandalore was kinda the obvious one, at least to me.

[@hunterkiller1440]

I prefer old Grievous lore than TCW ROTS Grievous lore.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@hunterkiller1440 that is a factually correct take, ROTS and canon grievous sucks ass

[@thesheeper0873]

true

[@sicksadworld765]

But it’s literally how Lucas wants him to be

[@lothara.schmal5092]

@@sicksadworld765I mean so what? Lucas makes plenty of bad decisions. He’s a creative dude, but as a writer he’s really lacking.

[@sicksadworld765]

@ I don‘t like that absurdly overpowered Grievous tbh In fact everyone in 2003 CW was absurdly overpowered

[@martisendrell9305]

Barriss Offee being evil was the one that did it for me. In the books she's the perfect jedi, literally.

[@merafirewing6591]

Like the simple solution would've been to made to make a different jedi to do such a thing and leave Barriss Offee alone.

[@AJadedLizard]

@@merafirewing6591 What makes no sense is that Barris was of an age _with Anakin._ They're friends, they even fight side by side in _New Droid Army_ and went on the "diplomatic mission to Ansion" together mentioned in Episode II. If anything, Ahsoka's BFF should've been Barris's padawan, also allowing a parallel between her teaching style and his.

[@delta2372]

​@@AJadedLizardWell filoni needed a Yuri love interest for fans to ship for his annoying orange loli OC waifu. I hate Ashoka so damn much.

[@AJadedLizard]

@delta2372 Do people ship her with Bariss?

[@delta2372]

@@AJadedLizard yes, you have no fucking idea how many people ship her and barris, or her and anakin, ya know A MARRIED MAN

[@Krieg8418]

Far as I see it, a lot of recent star wars writers just want to write a star wars story without having to deal with everything that comes with being a star wars story. There is a place for that, it's called fanfic.

[@Grivehn]

More like anti-fan fic. Especially when its Disney.

[@joe_floyd]

i mean that's literally legends. there should be no reason why you need a complicated chart to discern whats canon and whats not

[@boshwa20]

​@@joe_floyd Just be like Gundam and establish AUs every so often

[@creed8712]

My favorite fanfic is the one where Nazi…uh I mean imperial zombies fought Han and Chewbacca…right cause I don’t remember that before or after so it doesn’t count

[@trite4654]

​@@creed8712death troopers is a little odd, but it's better than most of what disney has given us. Red harvest was especially good.

[@theautomator8372]

Haven't watched the video yet but i pray Grevious is on here. In the old 2003 clone wars he spoke little and defeated nearly everyone that came he way with ease. Yet in clone wars (2008) he doesn't defeat anyone using his skill. He cheats, runs away constantly, and uses overwhelming force against his enemies yet still talks like he's the greatest creation ever. All bark and no bite. At the part in ROTS where kenobi cuts off his two hands he looks down in shock like it was the first time it had ever happened yet all i could think was "why so surprised? This has happened like 12 times already."

[@david-468]

Well you could give the reasoning that he was surprised that it was Kenobi (a defense specialist) that did it and he was surprised by that , not necessarily the attack but that obi wan even attacked to begin with

[@AJadedLizard]

So much of TCW breaks RotS. "My powers have doubled since last we met." "Oh, really, since you beat me last week?" Making Dooku a recurring boss fight was _so_ dumb; the MMP made a specific effort to _never_ have Anakin and Dooku duel again. Filoni, meanwhile, has it happen about once a season.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@AJadedLizardagreed there HOWEVER! Kenobi and skywalkers duel wasn’t a week before ROTS, but like 8 months before just before the outer rim sieges started

[@AJadedLizard]

@@PteranoLiv It's hyperbole. Regardless, they shouldn't have fought at all. The whole point of that duel is that Dooku goades Anakin into killing him, underestimating that he's capable of it. That doesn't work if they've fought before; if Dooku has a chance to size up an Anakin who's been at war for four years he's far less likely to make that mistake.

[@FriendlyBatDoom]

Faloni has a hard-on for his creation Ahsoka, so much so that he has her in everything. He also hates Mace Windu. The novels show Mace as more of a human being. This dude hated him so much that he gave him the Jar Jar arc in season six instead of giving us a potentially legendary duel between former friends and equals in Mace and Dooku. We had five Dooku vs Anakin/Kenobi in his Clone Wars show, contradicting the movie. He could've given us one with another Jedi like Mace.

[@dennischristopher9952]

The dooku stuff was annoying. The episode where they were all tied up together made no fkn sense

[@JohnLevi-t1w]

Dave Filoni sure does have a wicked affection and obsession with putting every EU writer's characters down while putting Ahsoka up upon a high horse of moral superiority who can do no wrong. He has been even doing that against Luke Skywalker trying to tarnish him like Rian and J J Abrams did. Dave is just a bad man and I hear he disrespects Timothy Zhan a lot.

[@Lady_Amelia-Eloise]

He hates Mace windu?

[@snackeater4990]

@@dennischristopher9952 No that episode was funny. Had the best banter

[@PteranoLiv]

@@FriendlyBatDoom as schafrillas said: you can’t make a Jedi who decapitates an unarmed man hell TCW makes windu very human specially in the zillo beast arc and how much better he treated anakin

[@themisfitbrigade]

He messed up everything when he’s not in check. This is the problem, none of them can do it alone. George needed people to help keep him from doing certain things, Dave and everyone else does to. But it has to be people who know what they’re working on.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

Every detail that went into TCW went through George Lucas' office and got his approval. Everything. You want to be mad at someone, be mad at George Lucas, the creator of the franchise, for saying it was okay to redo certain things and approving of changes.

[@debutriah2854]

@@nuclearsimian3281thank you. All these people are trying to say Lucas was perfect and do away with his part in all of this

[@dennischristopher9952]

People are rarely open to critique or any suggestions. Too many people everywhere always think what they say and do is 100% right all the time.

[@bluehero-96]

​@@nuclearsimian3281 If that was actually true, Ahsoka wouldn't be alive after TCW to be Filoni's Mary Sue-adjacent OC in the Disney timeline.

[@sethwinters3556]

​@@bluehero-96why would she have to be dead? There were tons of jedi who survived in EU. Grievous was the most prolific and successful jedi hunter UNTIL Vader came around in EU. So who would Vader even be hunting if no jedi survived?

[@project4061]

I am glad to see this channel come from a countdown of the best things from Star Wars, to one of the best channels for exploring the franchise and aren't afraid to call out bad writing or conflicts in the narrative!

[@SupremeKingToshiro]

The age-old debate, I'm glad more people are giving filoni criticism.

[@SupremeKingToshiro]

Also, the further I go from tcw, it is not as good as I remember. Head canon, lore wise, tcw is republic propaganda

[@lukescrew1981]

@@SupremeKingToshiro It is not good

[@SupremeKingToshiro]

​@lukescrew1981 I prefer the 2003 one more. I read some of the old dark horse comics, too.

[@million5666]

@@SupremeKingToshiro I think watching it as a kid had me in awe. So it always had a lot of respect from me and many others cause of nostalgia. I do have to agree that it's not a perfect show; rewatching TCW points out a lot of its flaws. I still think it's one of the top 5 Star Wars shows of all time, though. Besides, we all know the winners write history, so one man's propaganda is another man's truth.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@SupremeKingToshiro Yes. Personally, my head canon is the cartoons (both CW and TCW) are Republic Propaganda (the latter having some stuff snuck into the stories by the writers/animators, like most good cartoons do); the OG comics/novels are closer to "what really happened" (but still reported by people, so some bias explained) with the newer "canon" comics/novels aren't propaganda but had to go thru a "Ministry of Truth"ing before being published. (Might be some individual issues/novels that fall under a Seppie propaganda treatment; can't say I've read everything, but looking at the different story corridors as having overall biases can somewhat explain how they can be different; it'd be like reading the Japanese and American account of Midway, or if you've ever read the SGZ)

[@AJadedLizard]

The retcons are one of the litany of reasons I could never get into TCW (the other being that it wants to talk to me like I'm six). I will never forgive that we gave up the Battle of Jabiim and Grievous's far more heroic backstory in favor of not one, _but two_ incredibly belabored Godzilla references no one asked for.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

So yeah, it's a REALLY GREAT thing that Rex was created to 'replace' Alpha... I don't even want to imagine how badly Alpha would have been ruined. Also the Timeline issue gets even worse when you notice that the time frame for various stories/events take place later in Canon than they did in Legends (eg: I think it's mentioned that the Inhibitor Chip arc takes place in 20 BBY in Legends vs 19 BBY in Canon). Moving events to later in the Clone Wars would've created its own problems for Legends (mainly when it got to overloading events into the early months of 19 BBY since Legends gave exact days and months for when significant events from films like RotS took place) but it would've given preexisting events more room to breathe.

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

Alpha would have been too brutal for the Clone Wars.

[@merafirewing6591]

​@@Prophetofthe8thLegion so it was a smart decision that spared everyone the headache about that particular null trooper.

[@david-468]

See a lot of fans don’t even know what legends says, legends/eu destroyed its own cannon, many stories never even mentioned the chip in fact many said the chip didn’t exist/infected it, only later on was that retconned in both

[@vongslayer7338]

I don't remember there being an inhibitor chip in Legends. The clones were genetically engineered to be obedient to orders. Some clones even disregarded the order based on it not making sense. I'm thinking of Climber in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno and the various Republic Commandos and null arcs in Order 66 by Karen Traviss. But it's been 10-15 years since I read those books. ​@@david-468

[@SolurVoludun]

@@david-468wrong

[@Kenneth-k3b]

Slight correction, the changes to Dathomir and the witches were almost as big as the Mandalorians, just not as bad. Dathomir was once a lush jungle world, it's now an apocalyptic hellscape. The Dathomirians were also not a specific race, but many species as they were descended from the survivors of a crashed ship. That change specifically also changes Ventriss' species.

[@Eric188092]

I used to wonder why, as a relativley new fan of Star Wars at the time of the show's start, I would see so much viewer commentary on not acknowledging the show at all, and considering it non-canon. Considering the amount of "lore" that already existed, and the plundering and rebranding of its characters and arcs, the PoV makes much more sense to me now. Thanks for making this video Geetsly!

[@zacharycherif5525]

Another aspect the *Clone Wars* series mishandled was the portrayal of the Separatist Council. Initially, there was supposed to be a storyline explaining how the Separatist Parliament lost its power to the council. Unfortunately, with the cancellation of the series, this story was never explored. In the original Expanded Universe (EU), the Separatist movement was entirely controlled by large corporations, making their influence straightforward and unified. However, the *Clone Wars* series introduced diversity within the Separatist ranks, showcasing various factions and motivations. While this added complexity and depth, the show failed to clarify why the Separatist Council played such a critical role in Revenge of the Sith. This left a narrative gap in understanding the council's significance within the broader story.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@zacharycherif5525 blame Disney for that one of the tho ha I agree are fair to blame disney

[@rvds2040]

@@PteranoLiv disney's only involvement with tcw was season 7, everything before that was lucas and friends

[@MisterPeckingOrder]

It also betrays the thematic arc of the separatists representing the corruption these kinds of corporations are known for. The Sith literally spent generations intentionally pushing the galaxy in this direction through their own shady dealings and back door business arrangements. While it’s more realistic to make them this more broad spanning group it also kinda still doesn’t make sense. The army and the payroll behind the separatists would still be these massive corporations that made the droid armies in the first place. All the other separatists that have independent grievances with the republic beyond the trade federations disdain for regulation should be their own independent and divorced movements that are just being used and manipulated by both sides instead of just getting folded into the CIS faction.

[@zacharycherif5525]

​@@MisterPeckingOrder You hit the nail on the head! Why would separatists not aligned with big corporations rely on droids? To be fair, the old EU stories like Outbound Flight and Rogue Planet-set between The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones-offer some context. These stories reveal that the Trade Federation was forced to sell off its armies to planetary forces. This could explain why some planets, despite their hostility toward the Trade Federation, ended up using its droid armies. Interestingly, this situation opens up intriguing story possibilities. Imagine the Trade Federation transitioning into arms trading after being forced to disband its armies. Ironically, this move could empower them, as they would gain leverage over planets that were once hostile by supplying them with the very weapons they needed.

[@david-468]

I guess this comment and replies don’t know what irony is , hilarious you all claim they are disrespecting EU /legends while doing. That right here, the eu gives dookus main reasoning for joking the separatists as a noble one not a corrupt one, dolly believed he was fighting for good, you can’t have that if you have cartoonishly evil and corrupt organizations being the only ones in power

[@Greebo-ne1sc]

People always talk about how Dave filoni saved the clone wars and Star Wars. His decisions did as much damage to the lore as much as any of the sequels. Especially with his focus on Ashoka where her presence ceases to really make sense after Star Wars rebels. Instead of having Vader kill her she ends up being saved and just goes from a regular Jedi to completely over powered. He said that it would take Sidious and Vader to beat her. But it just goes on.

[@videogamecin]

The validity of these criticisms aside, saying that TCW damaged the lore as much as the Sequels did is a bit of a stretch and unfair. The Sequels are simply on a different level of franchise-destroying.

[@arthurg.calixto3338]

Wow bro. The actual stretch to try to make TCW this massive bad thing even though it is one of the most beloved pieces of SW media is actually insane LMAO, comparing it to the sequels which doomed Star Wars to cannibalize itself to non-existence and have fans incestually analyze works that have already been out for 30 years is how we ended up with such a toxic community.

[@Greebo-ne1sc]

@@videogamecin I was referring in no Dave Filoni rather than TCW tv show

[@Greebo-ne1sc]

@@arthurg.calixto3338 which proves you didn’t really read my comment. I grew up watching The clone wars and love it. I was talking about the creative decisions Dave Filoni has made. I literally brought up the clone wars as him saving it, its something people commend him for and focus on more than his poor creative decisions, in the rest of the Star Wars canon. You are the problem.

[@thepowerofsand6180]

I'm pretty sure the last comment is a joke because in the same scene that you mentioned Ashoka loses to Vader and is about to get killed. If you just forget the personal biases aside and stick to what we see, she's alright. I agree she's overused but that's because people wanted her in more series after CW. She's kinda like Maul where he's a fan favourite but now he's everywhere.

[@zuckusmukus841]

Here’s the thing with the retcon game George approved all of them before Disney and he has never cared about EU material if it has anything to do with his main storyline that didn’t fit his vision the clone commandos are definitely a good example

[@mandalorianhunter1]

Honestly I remember when The Clone Wars came out, the Mandalorian stuff by Travis was retconned. People were angry about it and hate it. For me I barely saw the material. I read Boba Fett crossfire where Boba met Aura and guess what, they are working together in at the end of Season 2. Yeah the Ventress retcon was weird because dark disciple was done by Lucas daughter. You would think it's canon but they changed that. So what happened to Master Vos?

[@Sephiroth144]

We know he was working with the Jedi Underground (canonically), so at least survived O66 Beyond that? Who knows... though I'd be hoping he's living his best life with Khaleen

[@TaraCicora]

@@Sephiroth144 that is my headcanon

[@duckhawkninja3614]

I'm actually glad the original clone ars cartoon is no longer canon for one reason and one reason only. There's one short where Mace Windu single-handedly destroys an entire droid army by himself along with a giant superweapon. It looked cool but it creates a glaring inconsistency with what Jedi and Mace in particular are shown to be capable of in Episode: II, specifically the Arena. If Mace Windu alone is capable of taking down an entire droid army single-handedly then why did so many Jedi die in the Geonosis arena? Mace could have wiped that entire army out himself if the 2003 cartoon is to be believed so why didn't he? Did he just let his fellow Jedi die for shits and giggles??

[@ZOMBIEWOLF29]

I sorta look at this issue the same as i do with palpatine, its said when palpatine fights mace windu & the other jedi masters, its actually super fast paced, where as on screen its less dramatic, basically-

[@krasserkaiuwe9094]

I thank you so much for this video. I grew up with the 2003 clone wars and the republic commando noveln and while loved the 2008 clone wars i hated how it changed the canon in every way. They changed the awesome history of jango and grievous too by making him a random bounty hunter and grievous becoming a cyborg because he wanted to.

[@nathanyessler1509]

TCW also changed Aurra Sing, from being a former Jedi padawan into merely a bounty hunter. She was Force sensitive, and held a ruthless grudge against the Jedi, even collecting their lightsabers. She was skilled enough to kill Sharad Hett, and almost hold her own against Aayla Secura (another Dark Horse Comics original character).

[@tomnorton4277]

Aurra Sing didn't "almost" hold her own against Aayla Secura. She DID hold her own against Aayla Secura and had a very good chance of winning. Tholme and An'ya Kuro had to go into death trances just to make sure Aayla would be focussed enough to beat her.

[@KaijuCommander]

It would be ironic if someday someone else came along and undid all of Filoni’s work on Star Wars, and he’d have little right to complain since that’s what he’s always done to the works of other writers.

[@renaissancenovice7202]

I would be immeasurably happy.

[@jonathanmichaels2151]

So what does the Lucas Story Group ACTUALLY do? Allegedly they work with creators to tell stories that fit within the universe without conflicting with existing canon. Are these people just paid for a lofty ideal? Obviously they get ignored whenever certain people are involved. So what’s the point in having that team?

[@AJadedLizard]

Before Lucas put his finger on the scales, they actually kept continuity between the difference series. That's why the MMP and works set later mesh so well: people were there to do things like encourage a reference to the Yuuzahn Vong in _Rogue Planet_ or set up the disaster on Honoghr which is a central plot point in the Thrawn Trilogy in an arc of _Republic._ We get _none_ of those things now.

[@saberiandream316]

The worst part is how the EU was forced to take these changes up the ass.

[@saberiandream316]

@@connorharnage6697 Or that Palpatine found Maul on the Filonized version of Dathomir?

[@saberiandream316]

@@connorharnage6697 What Filoni did hurts so much. He's no ally to the EU community.

[@graye2799]

While The clone wars is technically considered canon to the old EU, there's a reason most legends fans treat the 2008 show as non canon, and it's because of all the retconning and inconsistencies.

[@rvds2040]

you can treat is as non canon as you want, its still canon at the end of the day and the eu isnt

[@graye2799]

@@rvds2040 and star wars is worse off for it.

[@lukescrew1981]

@@rvds2040 Wrong

[@PteranoLiv]

@@graye2799as geestly’s themselves said: the old EU contradicted itself a lot and yes Disney canon is worse in that regard but ey still has that flaws

[@graye2799]

@@PteranoLiv People really need to stop saying that. The EU was actually pretty consistent with itself barring a few exceptions. The only real times it got wonky was when it came to the old marvel comics stuff, when the prequels came out (which didn't actually cause that many issues because George told authors they couldn't do anything in that era and any issues arising were easily retconned), and the 2008 show.

[@walnzell9328]

I wish Wookiepedia would have the option to expunge TCW content from some Legends articles. It seems to me that'd be easier than painstakingly trying to fit TCW with the other lore as continues to this day.

[@e.corellius4495]

people still use wookiepedia? i mean they were great like more than 10 years ago. but they have been a disney propaganda site since they buyout 2014

[@renaissancenovice7202]

Great idea

[@jessmith7324]

To be fair, CW was mostly Lucas's baby not filoni's. And he has expressly said in the past that he doesnt feel bound to the EU which he didnt write

[@SolurVoludun]

So George Lucas betrayed Star Wars in 2008. No wonder that’s the same year Kingdom of the Crystal Skull came out. Now I understand that South Park episode

[@AshanBhatoa]

​@@SolurVoludun Wacky reactionary take.

[@SolurVoludun]

@@AshanBhatoa Not at all. I'm stating the raw truth

[@connorharnage6697]

Even if George did say this, he shouldn't have approved the original versions in the first place. He shouldn't have approved Grievous's backstory or the entire EU for that matter if he was going to change it

[@kyzit8458]

​​@@connorharnage6697you said it like he didnt approve almost everything someone made because "Hello, I like money". Seriously though why wouldnt he approve everything if he didnt accept legends/eu as canon at all.

[@leandersearle5094]

Canon saying "the most recent thing is canon" is ridiculously stupid. They're telling everyone that their purchases of supplementary material are worthless, because the purchase isn't actually attached to anything. It says you're better off spending your money elsewhere (which is what Disney has seen), and I have no position to argue with them from.

[@germanscience7246]

It's interesting to note that part of Dave's retconn problem may have stemmed from Lucas. The reason I believe it because on the behind the scenes featurette on the seaosn 2 mandalore arc, Dave and other cast members specifically site Lucas as the one who decided they were going to incorporate mandalorians into the show. Now we can't say for certain what the process was like for the development but given George's attitude toward the EU before, I don't think it's unlikely that he told them to not worry about the EU. As Dave has inherited many of George's traits (both flaws and strengths) I think it's very possible that Lucas's care free attitude wore off on dave and led to the retconning tendencies we see today.

[@merafirewing6591]

Also you have The Clone Wars Multimedia Project, which would've been the absolute perfect blueprint to make the perfect 2008 TCW series. Like it would've been a Star Wars fanboy's wet dream, but no we're stuck with Filoni's version that's missing so many pieces.

[@AJadedLizard]

The issue is that Lucas didn't want that; if he _had_ TCW wouldn't have been made. He greenlit TCW to replace the MMP, I'm personally convinced because the MMP was much better received than the Prequels and it upset him other people told better stories in his universe than he did.

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@AJadedLizard Genndy's Clone Wars is still a better more consistent story between Ep2 and 3 than TCW. Achieving in a little over 2 hrs what TCW stumbles _trying_ to do in several seasons.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@darwinxavier3516not really sure on that one

[@SolurVoludun]

@@AJadedLizardGeorge Lucas stopped caring about Star Wars after 2005. What he did to Star Wars is negligence

[@adnanjusufovic5177]

I’ve gotten into a conflict with someone saying that Lucas loved Legends, I personally don’t believe it, largely because he has been pretty vocal on what some character changes, with Grievous being a pure example and some of these were pre-Disney and largely because I hate comics and other supplemental material. And as much as I love Filoni, he and Lucas are in many ways responsible for the franchise being what it is now. From prequels to currently.

[@Lady_Amelia-Eloise]

The prequels are great films though, Episode 3 is literally the best Star Wars film

[@PteranoLiv]

@@adnanjusufovic5177 george hated the EU, I also get into a fight recently with a super sad person regarding that

[@scockery]

Lucas loved Legends or more accurately, it made him lots of money. And he loved money.

[@PteranoLiv]

@ Lucas didn’t like legends mate, he didn’t like it at all

[@vetarlittorf1807]

​@@PteranoLivYes he did actually. He even referenced it multiple times.

[@Grivehn]

Thank. You. This was very informative even for someone who already knows this stuff. Just Ashoka's existence alone makes Feloni TCW impossible to be placed into Expanded Universe if you ask me. But there are basically hundreds of issues compounding over the seasons of the show. Much like Disney, it takes names and characters and changes nigh everything about them. Whether its good or bad, it just doesnt fit. And at this point, they deserve to be washed together with Disney. Same for Feloni's other stuff like Rebels or Bad Batch.

[@jkx107]

It all comes down to Lucas not considering anything that wasnt in his shows and movies canon. Games, books and comics were about as canon to Lucas as star trek's beta canon

[@neodigremo]

This is the heart of much EU wonkiness. Lucas does not care about the EU for the most part. He did dislike some things (such as Mara Jade, or Luke having romance in general) but he generally just ignored it. The EU was not canon to any SW media created by George. It may be consistent with it but it is not canon. Not even believed classics like Shadows of the Empire. And tbh I am ok with it.

[@itsreallyjk]

@@neodigremothat’s just untrue

[@InternetArchive1]

​@@itsreallyjkExplain

[@itsreallyjk]

@@InternetArchive1 George Lucas had a hand in much of the Expanded universe content. If he didn’t care about it why would he hire Leland Chee to make sure everything outside his movies fit within the movies continuity. Infact many EU writers got personal thank you letters from George detailing how he read their books and loved them. he even used elements from old EU novels he read for his movies (coruscant and the double bladed light saber just to name a few things he adapted from old eu books) he also would work with many eu writers, tv show producers and game developers to give them ideas. when James Luceno was writing the expanded universe novel “labyrinth of evil” George actually worked with him help develop grievous’ backstory. George also sat down with Terry brooks when he was writing the novelization for the phantom menace and actually told him the origins of the rule of two and darth bane in general. I could go on and on about how George helped work on the expanded universe. to say George didn’t care for it is just not true. he loved it and used alot of EU reference books when working on his prequel movies. He simply did not have time to overlook everything and make sure all the continuity was in place so he hired Leland Chee to do it for him. (Leland chee did a great job btw)

[@InternetArchive1]

@itsreallyjk That's nice, but George's involvement in the Clone Wars show kinda contradicts this whole statement, considering he very well had a hand in writing the show and very well made the decisions that contradict legends entirely, such as how Grievous was written(and it's been on record that George despised how legends wrote Grievous, so he made Grievous the way he wanted, which was a mustach twirling villain that ran away everytime. Why do you think ROTF and CW 2003 don't match when it comes to Grievous character?) Point is, George seems to contradict himself if your claims are true.

[@isaackim7675]

I feel that the Barriss Offee arc in Tales of the Empire would’ve been better suited as a book before reconning in animation

[@dr.bright6272]

Especially considering she was originally executed after Order 66

[@DemiurgeDarkfire]

I love the healthy criticism here. I will always stay with this channel. love the lack of bias, it is very clear the folks who run this channel truly care about starwars and only want to see it do better. not milk it for profit or create some kind of bs safe space where we cant criticize what we love.

[@PteranoLiv]

YES! YES! Speak your truth mate!

[@Nicholas.Rogala]

My headcannon for TCW is that it's a New Republic era production telling the downfall of the Old Republic. So, any and all contradictions are explained by the show just making things up or not knowing the truth. This also allows for anything good in the show, not contradicting the rest of the EU as possible to keep.

[@bruh949]

Poor Durge and Fordo never even got an appearance.

[@tomnorton4277]

Blessing in disguise. Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy was also lucky enough to avoid Dave Fuckloni's incompetence. So were Tholme, T'ra Saa and Sora Bulq. Quinlan Vos wasn't completely unscathed but at least he only had one episode to be character assassinated in. Oppo Rancisis didn't get his powerful last stand on Saleucami but at least he wasn't destroyed due to the simple fact that he barely appeared.

[@Bepisipeb]

I can understand why Filoni did the retcons. It's because most of the Star Wars audience follows television and movie content. Therefore, making the puzzle pieces of the overall story come together in tv shows and movies will lead to the majority audience understanding the story better. Which leads me to ask this question: Why not just adapt the stories that already existed in comics and books? It's that easy.

[@disconcerningcitizen2224]

Too many of the stories were awful.

[@itsreallyjk]

@@disconcerningcitizen2224what? 80% of the expanded universe was amazing. especially the clone wars era comics.

[@disconcerningcitizen2224]

@itsreallyjk nope, it was 90% slop. Most of it doesn't even feel like Star Wars.

[@AJadedLizard]

@@disconcerningcitizen2224 The sheer amount of homework necessary just to view TCW _in order,_ let alone to view it in order and skip the 70% filler is why I've never bothered finishing the series. If the MMP project were written like TCW, then Volume 6 of _Republic_ would take place before Volume 2, and you would be able to skip Volumes 1, 4, 5, and 7 entirely because they're filler for characters no one cares about or incredibly belabored references to fucking Godzilla no one asked for, and you'd also be able to skip Volume 8 because it's a remake of an older video game with dumber stakes and a worse art style. _That_ doesn't feel like Star Wars.

[@disconcerningcitizen2224]

@AJadedLizard Your point is a non-sequitor and an exaggeration. Not to mention, 4-6 came out before 1-3. Do you not understand what I mean by feeling like Star Wars? Most of the cwmmp was written to appeal to the Halo crowd, and it shows.

[@gigerdevoter5577]

I think the biggest problem with TCW is how everything feels out of place. Yes, you can blame George Lucas for some of the decisions, but it was FIloni's refusal to honor the original material that made the show feel like a fan fiction. There were moments in TCW that felt more like a generic sci fi series than Star Wars. To me, I think the show tried way to hard to fix what people didn't like about the prequel trilogy and instead of fixing it properly, it changed almost everything to make it superior, especially with how Anakin went from a teenage brat who always wanted to show off to a guy who acts like that charismatic uncle you get along with very well.

[@nathanmalik7056]

Filoni should have followed the EU much more closely while still writing great stories.

[@tridentmaster9206]

@@gigerdevoter5577 i mean he was getting blessings from lucas, sooo...

[@gamingtime468]

anakin's fine tho

[@TYKZY.BRANX._TEEK.SEE.BRANCH.]

@@gamingtime468 NO HE'Z NOT ! i NEED MY BRAT BACK !! [NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]

[@JoaoPedro-ol7sl]

I think this "cool" and kind side of Anakin could have worked if Anakin was also shown to be dark, like in previous works, like he's kind and caring to those close to him, but if you're not that close, he won't have a problem massacring you

[@educatedlaziness3268]

I mean George had been known to retcon things established in the EU as well, such as the original backstory for Boba Fett. Hell in Timothy Zahn's The Last Command, Mara Jade implies that Darth Vader's mechanical right hand was a punishment by Sidious for the destruction of the 1st Death Star

[@brandonwolak836]

It should be as simple as the Clone Wars 2008 is Canon and only canon, not legends, it fixes nearly if not every problem. Simply makes the Clone Wars 2008 books like the movie novelization, Wild Space, and No Prisoners canon and as well as the 2008 clone wars games such as Jedi Alliance, Lightsaber Duels and Republic Heroes.

[@TriTomMaximum]

I feel like Star Wars could greatly benefit from a Lore Master that kept track of the lore and continuity across all the mediums that only Lucas himself could be allowed to contradict.

[@SolurVoludun]

Leland Chee

[@connorharnage6697]

We had one. His name was Leland Chee (idk if he's still there) but he was STILL contradicted by Filoni even when he brought them up to him directly

[@JulianTheJedi]

I think Faloni is the perfect successor of Lucas because he has his best and worst traits. He can come up with incredible stories, but when given full control he struggles to execute them as well as they could be. The only thing I don’t like about his stories is his lack of regard to the books

[@tarkusweller3855]

You can't even say Filoni comes up with incredible stories because most of them are pulled from the EU! The ones he does make on his own are mid and lack depth, usually falling flat by the end

[@PteranoLiv]

@@tarkusweller3855uh not really most of TCW was original yes some were healed from legends like Mon Cala and kamino but yeah most where original, also rebels and bad batch are original

[@keyseronthewire]

I think Filoni Bologna pushed as much as he could for changes in TCW while being under George... Specifically with Ahsoka, who he wants to be the most important character in his era of Star Wars under Disney... George wanted her to die in TCW so Filoni should've respected and listened to, but he pushed and pushed until they reached a mutual agreement to have her leave the Jedi Order, but as soon as George was gone... Filoni re introduced her coming back and performing way better than she actually should've against Maul and intertwine her into Revenge of the Sith which makes no sense considering she's not mentioned or referenced once during the film and on top of that... They get rid of any possibility of showing Labyrinth of Evil storyline ever being brought to screen which is a tragedy considering it's one of the best novels. Filoni was testing the waters to see how much he could push and simultaneously rip off EU stories and writers while reconning whenever possible... Only caring about Ahsoka above all else. Her death in TCW would've added so much weight to Anakin's arc but instead it cops out just to keep her around... If she stayed absent until Rebels where Vader should've killed her would've been acceptable as well, but no... Another cop out to keep her around and she's just conveniently absent from the OT and she pops up afterwards to be Filoni's gem... She's overstayed her welcome and is a stale character now... All because he didn't listen to George. Personally, I just ignore the Disney season of TCW... Woke and continuity clashing garbage. Seasons 1-6 I'll watch and just imagine the unfinished arcs still taking place including Ventress' death and Maul's Son of Dathomir arc. Also, Grievous should've gotten his overdue respect in TCW by the end... He was goofy through most of TCW with the exception of a few episodes early on. All in all... Disney Star Wars ain't Star Wars... Canon is what we decide is canon... And the future of Star Wars is with genuine fans who respect George and what he created.

[@alpha-2235]

Jango was lucky to die in Attack of the clones, if he didnt they would have ruined him as well in filoni's TCW. They even wanted to bring Durge into the show but to make him a human character, thankfully we did not see that happen.

[@AJadedLizard]

I mean, they _did_ ruin him in TCW by declaring he wasn't a Mandalorian. I'm tempted to give Filoni points for undoing that in _The Mandalorian_ but how much credit does someone get for solving a problem they caused?

[@alpha-2235]

@ I actually forgot about that, Jango got ruined even beyond the grave😂 But I believe it was a comment made by that prime minister guy so it was kinda ambigous, not outright proof that Jango was not mandalorian. But even before everything EU got rebranded as legends filoni’s tcw took a massive dump on all extended lore whether it was comics, books etc. It was like a disney canon before the actual disney canon.

[@AJadedLizard]

@@alpha-2235 This exactly. All the problems with the Sequels trace back to this era.

[@renaissancenovice7202]

So true. Bullet dodged.

[@davidchase9424]

Never trust a guy who wears cowboy hat who isn't a cowboy

[@d3thkn1ghtmcgee74]

0:25 "while we have great respect for faloni and his show-" Not me lol

[@renaissancenovice7202]

❤

[@marshalllatta2073]

This is one of the best star wars channels on KZbin

[@michaelman957]

Karen Traviss, looking at the peacenik Mandalorians: "Look how they massacred my boy!"

[@renaissancenovice7202]

Her and the rest of us. RIP

[@AndrewAce.]

13:50 - Tales of the Empire demonstrate that there is a mountain clan of Dathomiri witches who are seemingly versed in Light side Majicks, or so seems to be the implication... Ironically, watching the prequels as a kid, I saw TCW as a way to fill in all the abbreviated story of the War in between AotC and RotS. I pretty much missed the advent of all of this other content, as I was late to the show. I didn't know how detailed the Clone Wars period has been via this multi-media project...

[@TheKiltedGerman]

Speak for yourself, mate. I've always considered Filoni overrated.

[@sheevinit1490]

You're brave for potentially inciting the Cult of Filoni's wrath.

[@creed8712]

Star Wars really should have done what the Star Trek fans do an consider basically anything we don’t see on a screen as secondary and easily be superseded with what we do actually see. Beyond that Star Wars has such a weird relationship with canon from its fans because you don’t still hear people complain how they utterly retconned boba fett as a character

[@Megacaillou]

Yes, a video about Dave "I'm going to steal other people's creations, claim ownership, and call them my own without giving any credit" Filoni. I'll give it a watch

[@nightking3877]

They should‘ve shown some really dark moments in the show, like the Battle of Jabiim

[@delta2372]

They would have had to put that series on adult swim rather than cartoon network, then again cartoon network back in the day allowed for naruto to be on the normal air before realizing that it might be a it to violent for kids and moved it to toonami.

[@nightking3877]

@ True. But I would prefer that instead of a 99,99% win rate of the Republic 😅

[@PteranoLiv]

Agreed jabiim would go HARD!

[@SolurVoludun]

Not to mention, the Battle of Jabiim is part of the Republic Comics, real Star Wars canon. Not a show with crappy CGI that is a result of Filoni’s self indulgence and George Lucas’ negligence

[@nightking3877]

@ For me, both is canon

[@DarthBill-h6f]

Faloni didn't know what a Gundarks looked like till George showed him art book.

[@joshmm3]

I dont care how they did it but Im so glad they brought back assaj ventress. Shes one of my favorite characters. I really feel like the bad batch did her justice and her changes felt like a logical growth. Im biased though because anyway to bring her closer to a live action return Ill love. Im so hopping they bring her back to join forces with Ashoka in season 2 or 3 of Ashoka.

[@hexhowl]

And this is why I call Star Wars a multiverse!

[@Koel_Hellion]

The only thing filoni cares about are his shitty ocs

[@HeraldOfTheRiddermark]

Even Piel is such an underrated jedi

[@aidanbiddiscombe3604]

I wouldnt have minded Adi Gallia's death if they had bothered to flesh out her character and not abandoned her EU backstory. Her character never got to have humour and reasoning that was hinted and her death was treated nowhere near Even Piells

[@tomnorton4277]

Even Piell was one of the lucky ones. The Citadel arc was one of The Clone Wars' best stories - one that was actually worthy of standing alongside the Expanded Universe - and the only thing it fucked up was having Piell die earlier than he was supposed to. But it was still a death that suited him. I could see the EU Even Piell dying like that because unlike Adi Gallia's death, which was a direct result of Darth Maul's bullshit resurrection, it doesn't screw up anything outside of Piell's own story. Heck, they could have even easily rescripted the moment just a little to use this exact line as a reference. "Oh, don't be an idiot. Move me and I'll come apart like a holopuzzle. I'm done-we both know it. Someone must take over my mission. Now pay attention…"

[@abhishekdas8026]

Tales of the Empire confirmed the presence of other clans on Dathomir.

[@Toshiro93]

I agree with what Sheev Talks said (in his Clone Wars retrospective) that Barriss Offee was handled very poorly in that show, but she was handled terribly in Tales of Empire as well. Three episodes of 20 minutes each...60 minutes in total to talk about years of a character's life. We could remain faithful to the previous idea of ​​Barriss as incarcerated under the Republic, but if we really wanted to make her an inquisitor, we needed not only to give her more space in this capacity, making clear the torment between using the dark side and serving a regime and Jedi training (with all due respect to the bomb planted during the war, but... you know, the damage had already been done), but also avoiding having Barriss meet Vader. Because if Barriss doesn't know who Vader is, he knows her very well... and seeing that she has no reaction to the person who falsely accused her apprentice is pure laziness. Not to mention the concept, poorly brought to the screen, of force healing... a concept that already existed in the EU and was associated with Barriss, but which needed to be understood in its facets (i.e., showing how using that ability consumed the own existence, visible at times, but never explicitly said), not to mention the idiotic death they gave to her.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@Toshiro93 i really dislike sheev talks review on the clone wars, it’s INCREDIBLY biased and you can tell it’s from someone who watch TCW comvinced it “wouldn’t hold up” compare that to geestly’s (the guys who made this videoH who are objective and unbiased in every way. They acknowledge good and bad if everything and how it scales up and in terms of quality, while TCW has some REALLY bad arcs it overall is an ANAZING SHOW, and it’s peaks are the peaks of the franchise just like Andor or KOTOR

[@Toshiro93]

@PteranoLiv Look, I watched CW quite recently and on many points I agree about the logical critical issues of the show, without prejudice to the fact that Sheev's is also a bit of a show and a character at the same time, so I can understand why it is critical in an almost pedantic. However, I think most of the points raised make sense. Having said this, it is possible that we may not agree on the points or the very method of criticism. Personally, I find it a useful exercise to refine analytical skills.

[@PteranoLiv]

@ well ig opinions are valid

[@jamiewalsh3349]

Cool video idea. A complete timeline of the Clone Wars prior to The Clone Wars

[@Aerosmith1999-j6h]

Everyone else has woken up to this mans lack of respect towards lore. Hes not as good as people make hin out to be (good, but not perfect). It seems the only person willing to still support him, 100% is SW Theory. (When i say people, i mean content creators)

[@PteranoLiv]

Blame George, not dave

[@Aerosmith1999-j6h]

@PteranoLiv nope. Blaming the dude who pushed for it. Sorry, can't change my mind.

[@PteranoLiv]

@ welp your wrong then, whether you like it or not

[@Aerosmith1999-j6h]

@PteranoLiv nah, the dude throwing tantrum, and the dude supporting him, that's you, are wrong.

[@PteranoLiv]

@ very convincing argument mate There countless proof that George is responsible for TCW and also how he disliked the EU

[@megazman-y6j]

This is why I've grown to become in favor of the old Clone Wars multimedia project. It feels like a natural story that takes place in between AOTC and ROTS while TCW took far too many liberties with the lore. There are a couple things I prefer in TCW(it's versions of Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, the Clone troopers etc), but more often than not the TCW version of certain characters and stories are inferior to what came before IMO.(Republic comics Vos > Dark Disciple Vos. Swamp gas > Blue Shadow virus. Force Harvester > Malevolence. Jabiim > Umbara. Etc.) Honestly the Dark Lord trilogy(consisting of Labyrinth of Evil, ROTS novelization, Rise of Darth Vader) is my favorite piece of Star Wars media ever, and a near perfect series finale to the Clone Wars multimedia project.

[@merafirewing6591]

And would've been the perfect blueprint, if I were to get a chance to reboot the 2008 TCW series. I would've went with the multimedia project as the way to make a better series.

[@AJadedLizard]

Umbara is _so goddam dumb._ People act like it's this super gritty, mature war story and it isn't, it's something a child playing with action figures would come up with. Does Evil Dexter _genuinely_ think convincing a couple platoons of clones to friendly-fire each other will be enough to convince Dooku to take him on as an apprentice? That's _absurdly_ low stakes; orchestrating a war crime where, say, clones massacre refugees or the Republic Navy destroys civilian transports fleeing the battle is at minimum the kind of spectacle it'd take to impress him. There was a lot of care and attention to detail in both eras of Star Wars ongoing at the time: the MMP and the New Jedi Order, care that is completely absent in what we've got now. The people making that Star Wars genuinely cared; the ones we have now are just out to make "content" for consumption. No wonder it's not as good.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@AJadedLizarduh… are you high? Umbara is AMAZING!

[@PteranoLiv]

I disagree on Umbara being worse than jabiim but jabiim was great too

[@AJadedLizard]

@@PteranoLiv Nah, and I don't have the flu either, evidenced by the fact I have taste.

[@jesus2639]

The books arnt cannon. They say the books are but they are litterally NEVER respected. Its basicly just an alternate reality

[@walnzell9328]

Filoni started out great and then slowly deteriorated into early onset dementia. We're in the late stage now.

[@nicholasfarrell5981]

That . . . is a bold accusation to make. Hope you have some proof to back it up.

[@walnzell9328]

@@nicholasfarrell5981 I don't mean literally suffering from dementia.

[@walnzell9328]

@@nicholasfarrell5981 I didn't mean literally.

[@walnzell9328]

@@nicholasfarrell5981 I mean from a creative standpoint. Having to have explanations at the ready with every new development is a sign of someone having too much power. Damage control for a narcissist. And that's what was happening with the TCW retcons like only part of Mandalore being a bombed out desert. Filoni kept overwriting other authors as if they didn't matter. And as his show was far more popular than books and comics, he was technically right. Public opinion was on his side. But others who worked so hard felt disrespected. "Late stage" as I call it is where we are now with Filoni disregarding his OWN work. He's forgetting. He's losing his creativity. He's falling back on nostalgia to do the heavy lifting.

[@nicholasfarrell5981]

@walnzell9328 okay. Sorry I got a bit . . . whatever I was . . . about it, it's just the dementia claim's been tossed around about public figures a lot lately and it never gets backed up by anything. Gets a bit hard to not get jumpy when the claim comes up these days.

[@justgaming7679]

I feel like the Clone Wars TV show should be retroactively made Canon *only* and not Legends, just so that the original Clone Wars timeline can have its place in Legends.

[@dhaburuk6494]

Thank you, Geetsly's team, for this fine video addition to our educational collection, and for your enduring love of Star Wars.

[@codename618]

So what I'm understanding is that there were already two Clone Wars timelines that existed before Disney even got involved and separated things into Canon and Legends. Interesting.

[@v3prhunterkiller828]

Legends fans were promised a consistent story when Disney decanonized the old EU.

[@ernestov2001]

The old EU would've still be scrapped even if Disney never bought star wars.

[@rvds2040]

legends would have been burned to a crisp if lucas had made his own sequels

[@RedHairedWarlord]

@@rvds2040still doesn’t justify Disney destroying it

[@rvds2040]

@@RedHairedWarlord oh so if george lucas does it its fine, but if disney does it its bad ?

[@markcorbaley5313]

​@@rvds2040, I don't see them mentioning Lucas, could you help me find it? After all, you're surely not the kind of idiot to disengenuously strawman who you argue against, right?

[@nomus1172]

I think we have to remember that George Lucas is mostly responsible for most of these changes. He had a lot of control over the clone wars. This includes the existence of Ahsoka and many other things . Like we have to remember that he couldn’t put a lot of the stuff he wanted in the movies so he probably put it in clone wars

[@itsreallyjk]

that’s just not true. George doesn’t have a single writing credit to his name in tcw. a lot of George’s ideas were actually thrown out. the excuse that it’s all George’s fault is just a way filoni fans try to deflect.

[@nomus1172]

@ don’t deny it George Lucas turned general grevious into a coughing loser . He gave a Anakin a padawan . He did many things Dave Filoni didn’t have as much influence until Star Wars was sold to Disney Plus let’s not act like the EU didn’t have a lot of bad stories mixed in with the good ones And remember George Lucas is kinda notorious with his ideas not having good execution if he acts alone . It’s why the prequels received the hate they did back in the day Though from what I’ve seen Filoni has the same flaws . He needs people to hold him back just like George Lucas had a team to help manage and organize his ideas

[@itsreallyjk]

@@nomus1172 that’s just not true lmao. TCW was almost all Dave with very little recommendations from George actually getting used for the show. filoni was the lead on the show and had full creative control. Also nearly 80% of all the expanded universe were really good stories. of course you have your bad stories here and there but that’s just gonna happen with any multi media project.

[@samirpaivaferreira9978]

If this is true, explain to me why the end credits of TCW credit George as the creator? ​@@itsreallyjk

[@itsreallyjk]

@@samirpaivaferreira9978 George created Star Wars…

[@Kissamiess]

I wasn't that much into prequel-era EU so I didn't notice it at first, but eventually the way TCW messed with the worldbuilding started to affect my beloved post-OT era too. Also even the authors who didn't quit started to get demoralized by the canon becoming a foundation of sand. I think it would have been best to treat the TCW as in-universe propaganda. Some of it based on real events and characters, but most of it outright fabrication.

[@Zorkii]

Genuine question. Can these really be considered retcons? Like the EU/Legends despite common belief was never canon. As George saw it as an alternative universe, and not his vision. If The stories weren't canon and not made by the creator, Isn't it essentially a fanfic? So George or Filoni changing it doesn't really make a retcon. Like yeah it really sucks for those authors who worked so hard to contribute to Star Wars. But at the end of the day, G-canon was always above them and their work was always available to be disregarded.

[@CT-316]

Yes they are retcons because the EU was considered canon. it was considered canon by Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing. whether or not George considered a cannon is up for debate. there are many, many quotes from him that conflict with each other. when it comes to George, actions speak louder than words, and his actions clearly show he wasn't all too concerned with staying in line with the EU. So, in short, George did not really consider it Canon to him personally. but to Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing, it was indisputably canon. not even up for a debate. ask yourself this, if it was never cannon to begin with, why did Disney have to decanonize it?

[@rajtozaur]

@@CT-316 this is probably the best way to explain this whole mess of a debate in fandom. In the time of TFA premiere George in the interview said that the original Star Wars saga was a story about "the father, the son and the grandchildren (...) it's even in the novels". But does it really matter what the George is saying? EU was canon and nothing will ever change that. For some people like me the EU is still canon and Disney stuff is just separate world to which I like to go back sometimes but this is just not my star wars.

[@lukescrew1981]

@@Zorkii Yes it was canon

[@ximthedespot4673]

I had this stuff pointed out to me years ago. It caused me to go back and reread the Republic comics and see just how it impacted things. Now I feel ripped off.

[@devastater97]

Filoni is actually overrated. He's basically in love with Ahsoka and wants her in everything and outwardly hates the Empire and Stormtroopers, hence why he makes them incompetent as HELL whenever he gets the chance to like in the Mandalorian.

[@OldBenKenobi2318]

Stormtroopers have been made to look incompetent since ANH 😂

[@lukescrew1981]

@@OldBenKenobi2318 Wrong

[@delta2372]

​@@OldBenKenobi2318really? because I never got that vibe from them at all, even in return of the jedi which is not a very good movie (let's be honest here star wars hasn't had a single good movie since 1983 with empire strikes back) In the original movie and empire, both the escape from the death star and cloud city they were under orders to not kill the protagonists because Vader wanted them to escape so he could follow them to his true target (the yavin base in the first movie and his friends finding luke after their duel because he knew that they would come for him) The only reason why the stormtrooper didn't waste han and leia in ROTJ after leia is injured is because leia being such a high valued target she's wanted alive more so than dead to be put on a show trial, if we are going with the EU here, han is wanted for desertion from the imperial navy and given his rep in the rebellion he to would make a good mock trial before he is executed. Before you mention the ewoks, yeah that is retarded and even the most adamant defenders of ROTJ admit that they were a stupid decision and the empire loosing to them was moronic.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@lukescrew1981you only know how to say wrong dont you

[@lukescrew1981]

@PteranoLiv No

[@ChinonsoNnadozie]

Sheev talks video on the clone wars DOES NOT HOLD UP was right and accurate 😂.

[@PteranoLiv]

@@ChinonsoNnadozie sheev’s video on “TCW doesn’t hold up” sucks ass. TCW does hold up and it’s great, he went through the clone wars watching it convinced already that it would suck and that it retcons legends stuff, guess what? Retcons ≠ bad the majority of TCW’s retcons where excellent: maul, Ahsoka and the clones are the highlights! Yes it has some bad stuff but EVERYTHING HAS BAD STUFF including the EU

[@ChinonsoNnadozie]

@PteranoLiv nope he was right,they retconed so many characters back stories, turned general grevious and count dooku into idiots and cowards, Introduced so many world breaking concepts and got Anakin characterization from the sequel trilogy wrong and stagnant, inconsistent maps,bad arks, characterization of mace windu who is different from his movie counterpart. one of the good things about the show was the clones,maul ,order 66 and the Jedi( even that is inconsistent).

[@elpsykoongro5379]

​@@PteranoLiv Your PFP checks out, your opinion is invalid, get some psychological help pls

[@lukescrew1981]

@@PteranoLiv No it doesn't. It's actually way worse than what Sheev made it out to be

[@PteranoLiv]

@ ok legendstard

[@stranger140]

I love this channel

[@brandonscott4808]

I mean, this isn't much a surprise if you look back at TCW and even Rebels, Dave Filloni never had respect for the six films and EU characters and concepts that he borrowed and twisted to display his own personal bad fanfiction. I also don't agree that the TCWs show take on the Clone Wars was better than the EU since the Clone Wars Multimedia Project was more coherent and easy to follow while Filloni's version was all over the place and face alot of contradictions for years.

[@Jwsponky]

...Not sure why people expect a franchise spanning... how many decades now?.. that anyone willing to pay Lucas $5 could add their piece to to have anything even resembling consistency.

[@kirby7294]

Because they could at least try. They used to back when people had actual passion for storytelling and world building, but now all people want to do is tell a star wars story and not give damn about continuity. Which, like it or not, has damning ramifications on star wars as a whole.

[@Jwsponky]

@@kirby7294 Or they could just pay the license fee to get the name of a popular franchise slapped on the cover of their sci fi tale to try and make a quick buck. Writing is a job after all, writers are only in it to get paid same as anyone else.

[@AJadedLizard]

Because they used to do that? The older stories were pretty consistent and there were rules about what you could and couldn't change. If retcons like this were _common_ over the franchise's history, why do you think TCW is the only one that people get upset about? It's because it was so blatant and unusual that people were annoyed.

[@AJadedLizard]

@@Jwsponky That's...not how it worked. The publisher came to _you,_ not the other way around. It isn't like now where we have nonsense like Chuck Wendig being _hired to write the novel leading up to Episode VII_ because he begged for it on Twitter. They used to actually care, and the product reflected that.

[@Jwsponky]

@@AJadedLizard ...So you are claiming publishers just walk up to random people on the street and ask if they want to write a book? I find this difficult to believe.

[@johnappleton3446]

My biggest pet peeve with filoni (besides the retcons) was somehow ever single jedi he writes for has animal affinity, and go beast mode with twin blades.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

Even though it's not possible to remove it from Legends completely... I just head canon it and all other content linked to the show's version of the Clone Wars out of Legends (and replace the characters in my favourite arcs with less seen Jedi). Although, aside from it being Abeloth's origin, how directly tied are The Ones to the events of 'Fate of the Jedi'?

[@FoxHoundUnit90]

I like think of it as events that did happen but was exaggerated by Republic propaganda. As for the Ones, if I remember right, they have no impact on Fate of the Jedi, just Abeloth. It was more of a weak attempt to tie the Legacy era to Clone Wars.

[@isaiahsmith7123]

You can absolutely remove all of TCW from the Legends time-line and leave it for Canon where it honestly fits much better.

[@CT-316]

The ones barely tie into the expanded universe and the fate of the Jedi. aside from the in-universe Book of Sith source book and the final book in The Fate of the Jedi series, the mortise gods barely have anything to do with the EU. And it's also worth keeping in mind that the fate of the Jedi series takes place during one of the most controversial eras in the expanded universe, that being the legacy. aside from the legacy comics, pretty much everything taking place after the new Jedi order series is very controversial and many people headcanon them out of their timelines anyways.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

@@CT-316 Ok, I'll make a judgement on it for myself on whether to ignore Fate of the Jedi when I get there but without the context of the novels, I'll just assume any references to the Ones are minimal enough that I can just get rid of that arc from the Legends Timeline along with the rest of the show. Also given how I think the references to them in Book of Sith are set pre TCW, I think it's vague enough to head canon that reference as an in universe myth (although I head canon that the Nightsister part doesn't exist for obvious reasons)... unlike The Jedi Path which has Ahsoka as one of the characters making side notes throughout. I can't remember which but in one of those books, Luke basically just shrugs and says he can't understand the chronology of the Clone Wars which feels like the writer being meta and finding a place in the text to say "How the hell am I meant to make the two versions fit together?!"

[@CT-316]

@Jedi_Spartan the reference to the ones in the book of Sith is only in the night sisters portion. So, if you had Canon out the night sisters part, then you also by default remove the ones.

[@anticitizenokapi4634]

Filoni now is like Lucas during the prequels. He should have had someone telling him no to his ideas and to pick up and read a damn book before going through with anything. I am still an adamant fan of the 2008 Clone Wars as it has its high and lows but I no longer see it as "peak Star Wars". It doesn't nessecarily fit in with the timeline between AOTC and ROTS like the CWMMP did. A lot of the people who still defend the show as "peak Star Wars" have been blinded with nostalgia which has reduced their media literacy down. I'm glad to see people are waking up to Filoni and his filonius ways. Read EU books and watch the 2003 CW/CWMMP if you feel disappointed.

[@CaseyRedgrave]

If you are gonna blame Filoni for retcons in Clone Wars, you should also put it on Lucas himself, anything that happened in the Clone Wars show was also his doing too. Any changes like for example Anakin having a padawan, was his idea. Everything Filoni did was okayed by George. It's fine to criticize the man, I don't like some changes he has done, but he still did more good than bad. Lucas never really cared for the extended universe, I mean the dude hates Mara Jade and we all know if he was gonna make sequels, all of that would've been retconned anyways. Legends and canon are two different continuities, and legends ( especially comics and books ) are always on the chopping block of getting retconned. This has always been a thing with Star Wars and it will never change. Honestly, it feels like people are now hating on him for no other reason than for attention since it is meta, few years ago all of you were pretty much sucking him off, but now just wanna appeal to the majority. Just like Star Wars Theory went from "I am fine with sequels" to "oh look at me, I hate them too ha ha, please love me".

[@LastGoatKnight]

Yeah, same here, he did things still better than what Kathleen Kennedy and Leslye does currently. He was Lucas' padawan and though flawed, his visions were closest to Lucas and Star Wars as a whole. Now we have Force feminisers and sith simpathisers that know nothing about the franchise yet allowed to be at the helm. Wtf

[@cal2127]

yeah but we've all known that lucas can be an idiot. this whole "lucas is flawless" narrative was started by disney shills as a way to attack the old eu.

[@RubenMakaya]

I agree, although imo Dave did more harm than good and like you mentioned, George shares blame as much as Filoni, perhaps even more as he agreed with many of the things Filoni executed. Anakin never should have had a Padawan, and if they really wanted Ahsoka to be in the story, she should've been Plo Koon's apprentice for starters. I still have no clue of how on earth these two thought it was a wise idea to have her be mentored by Anakin when the Jedi literally didn't trust him with a seat on the council, let alone to have a student of his own when they even gave Obi-Wan trouble for it back in TPM?

[@Mrlaneck]

It's called growth. Star Wars theory had years to sit back and reflect, and he came to the logical conclusion that the Sequel Trilogy sucked and Disney Star Wars was canceraids. It's really not hard to understand. Sure, there will always be grifters, but I genuinely believe most people making content are fans that hate the direction the franchise has taken over the last decade.

[@CaseyRedgrave]

@@RubenMakaya Dave Filoni created Ahsoka ( Ashla at the time ) to be some elses padawan, an orginal character by Filoni, but Geroge told him she is to be Anakins padawan. The origina conecpt for Clone Wars wasn't gonna center around Anakin, Ahsoka and the rest.

[@ShawnWinters-bw5xm]

Thank you. Everyone thinks filoni is a god send to the franchise and in a lot of ways he was but in a lot of ways he did nerf the lore

[@heavyarms55]

I've been a Star Wars fan since the 90s. Lucas never cared about the EU and happily trampled all over it. When Disney took over, even that stopped mattering. All modern Star Wars is made for making money. Making toys, making merchandise. Disney is a cold corporation. They might have the mouse as a mascot, but the people making the choices are only concerned with profits. They are making products to sell. Be them shows, movies, or anything else. There is very little interest in telling a cohesive story or have a consistent world. The goal is to make something that appeals to the WIDEST audience of potential CUSTOMERS. It's about money, not story.

[@MichaelHesterII1356]

21:52 Hold the phone, isn’t there a Darth Vader Comic where he finds Eeth Koth, who abandoned the Jedi code, and Vader kills him?

[@spencerstrickland5266]

I never like Dave Bologna.

[@EternalEmperorofZakuul]

Based

[@SolurVoludun]

Dave Retconi Gayloni

[@zacharymccants77]

Filoni is a creative hack. He treats the work of others like his personal scrap box that he can pull things out of to put his own spin on them.