Edelgard's New Dawn: The Fate of Fodlan

I hope that you all enjoyed the video, because this is related to Edelgard I'm sure that there will be some disagreements within the comments, but I think it'll be exciting to see everyone's different ideas hashing each other out in the comments. I might slow down a bit on making videos for a bit, so don't be surprised if new videos are a little late. As always let me know what you thought and thanks for watching.

[@adrianadamsson6757]

I was going to point out that Edelgard does actually go into her definition of merit in a teatime conversation. “I have no intention of handing the Imperial throne over to any child I might have. Instead, I’ll choose an outsider who’s brilliant and kind.” Edelgard intends to hand over the title of emperor to someone she considers to have merit. Here's she is essentially saying that how she would determine the worth of the leader is in their intelligence and how they treat others. Something that could bode well for the future. In any case, good job with the video.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I completely forgot about that, thanks for pointing that out. And thanks for the feedback

[@leoistari]

As someone who played GD first, it got me really mad the amount of misinformation that Edelgard spread throuout the rout

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I got frustrated too, that her decision to misinform her friends for war time morale was not very wise

[@laurenzollamas2324]

While it's entirely up to the player to imagine whatever they want, a few hints: 1) Crimson Flower is the only ending cutscene to end in darkness. Azure Moon is Dimitri walking into a cheering crowd with light streaming out; Sacred Snow is light streaming down along with flower petals as Rhea peacefully descends into Byleth's waiting arms; Verdant Wind is in broad daylight. 2) With that, while there's a case to be made for Byleth "regaining humanity" in the end of CF, it's also Byleth... losing divinity / enlightenment. CF is the only end where Byleth does not help guide Fodlan - Byleth instead defaults to "wings of the Hegemon" aka defers their responsibility to the world to Edelgard. (And Hegemon as a term has its own heavy meaning) 3) CF's artwork is the only one with a black border. Additionally, she's being crowned by an angel of victory (traditional symbolism of dictators / Roman rulers) as well as holding onto a reversed Napoleonic staff (which was a symbol used by Napoleon to show justice / etc). 4) If you pair Hubert with Shamir, their ending mentions secret assassination squads. If you pair Hubert with Dorothea, their ending indicates secret assassination squads that go around the continent to subdue rebellions whenever necessary under the guise of a performance troupe. 5) The original JP translation makes more of an emphasis on Edelgard "resetting" the world to what it once was. Which makes far more sense if you believe she truly does believe the only reason Leicester and Faerghus exist at all is due to Rhea's meddling. 6) The developers themselves are on record stating that CF is the Tyrant's Path. Which isn't to say "lol Edelgard a dictator" but this is an older concept of a very strict, authoritarian way to "rule" whether it be in business or government. Which makes sense - Edelgard has gotten rid of any check on her centralized power throughout the story. So - is that bad for Fodlan? Good for Fodlan? I dunno. The ending cards don't really say all that much about long-term consequences as they are very character-focused instead of world-focused. If you take the idea that FE3H does indeed follow the pathway laid out in FE4 - Flame Emperor takes over the continent in order to end oppression and deliver justice, Edelgard's Empire will collapse by the second generation as the very same things that led to her victories don't correlate to ruling and her association with an evil dark magic cult comes back to bite her. You could also make a case that her new world would look like Daein - heavily military-focused with commoners able to rise to high ranks by showing off their military prowess and their strength, as is vaguely referenced in Ladisvila (Ladis - whatever her name is). You could even correlate this to Chinese meritocracy, where standardized testing allowed for many people to show their worth and get nice government jobs... and then turn around and hire tutors to make sure their children had a leg up and arguably bribe some officials to make sure their family stayed in a cushy position for the forseeable future. But if you want to believe she reformed the world and made a fantastic society where commoners rise up and "true peace" is fashioned - there's not really an argument against it within the text itself. 3H isn't really concerned with the "future" of Fodlan so much as making sure the player is having a good time. And hopefully will then go dump a ton of money into Cipher / Fire Emblem Heroes / etc. And the English version very much does downplay the darker aspects of Edelgard's character and phrases them more as reforms and "good" changes.

[@laurenzollamas2324]

Also - arguably - commoners were already on their way to social mobility. Fodlan has a merchant class and the rising star of the Alliance at the time of the game is... Edmund. Who had no Crest and advised Marianne to keep hers hidden. As well as Holst, who by all accounts is also Crestless. There's a good bit of contradiction within 3H's text that undermines the central theme of "Crests determine all." eta: (sorry) according to an NPC, the Church of Seiros had very little to no authority within the game at the start. According to an NPC in early games, there had been no Church in Adrestia (followers, yes, but not a structured church) in decades if not a century due to a dispute with one of the previous Emperors who then disbanded the Southern branch. Edelgard is the first future Emperor to come to Garreg Mach in generations and this NPC hopes that it can somewhat repair relations with Adrestia. The Church also had very little foothold in the Alliance (per Lorenz as well as Shamir and Alois's paralogue) and the Western Church (Faerghus's) was in open rebellion. So their political power was already waning by the time of 3H. Again - less me disagreeing and more pointing out contradictions within the "end the Church, free the World" narrative.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Thanks for commenting! I really liked the nuanced perspective you gave here. I agree with much of everything you said the writers leave it open ended to some degree, yet edelgard's personality traits and some of her rhetoric can reveal that she might found a new and more controlling empire as you pointed out. I also think that the 'end the church free the world' narrative as you put it, lacks nuance even if there are obvious issues with the church of seiros during the game.

[@laurenzollamas2324]

@@ordinaryunits4341 No worries. Honestly, the Church of Seiros was the one that really surprised me. It's super-common in JRPGs to have an evil church ruling the world (FFX, 13, Tactics, Tales Series) that I was fully expecting that to be the twist. And... it actually wasn't. It still is very vague, but the impression I get from Lorenz, Ferdinand, Shamir-Alois's paralogues is that outside of the central branch the other regions / branches are relatively toothless with most nobility only showing performative loyalty at most. In a purely structural way, that all makes sense to me - ch 1 - 12 are all set up as mysteries to "unfold," with Rhea / Church of Seiros being a red herring to mask the underlying threat of the Slithers and that your main adversary was actually Edelgard (per the developers, who said she was initially meant to be Byleth's "equal" and could also use Time's Pulse) so the "betrayal" of the Flame Emperor was meant to be more meaningful and impactful. But that's not really what we got, and I mostly blame how the timeskip "resets" the board and destroys any tension and traction that reveal had. And 3/4 of the time, that betrayal being a personal one isn't even really relevant nor do all the mysteries of White Clouds get to have a unifying payoff. I suspect if 3H had another year or so, we would have gotten a little more cohesive story but I doubt Nintendo would have allowed them that time. It was already delayed once and they weren't going to allow it to be delayed again.

[@redragon88]

The problem with everything you write is that half of it straight up false and the other is just biased assumptions. Nothing about that are hints, you're just pushing it that way to satisfy your personal narrative.

[@laurenzollamas2324]

@@redragon88 ...yes? That's called "looking at subtext and trying to determine what the developers were trying to convey without using overt text." You are free to do whatever analysis you want to do too.

[@greendemon905]

In my opinion, Crimson Flower is the worst possible fate for Fodlan, for many reasons. 1. Edelgard effectively stole most of Fodlan and forcefully added them to the Empire. That's going to leave a LOT of vengeful people in her new territories. War orphans, broken families, Seiros adherents, and many people more will see her as a monster, and will want her dead. That's not solid ground to build upon. At least in Silver Snow, the Church regains the rulership they had before, and in Azure Moon, Claude convinces the Alliance Lords to reintegrate into the Kingdom. It's not perfect, but it's definitely better. 2. Wars are expensive. Every route is going to end with a massive amount of debt, but it's going to hit Edelgard the hardest, since she is the one with the most drastic reforms. At the end of Crimson Flower she'll have 3 former nations, all with their own national debt. It's nice that she and Ferdinand want to create free education, but where are they going to get the money from to fund school buildings, teachers, books, supplementary materials, etc? The Church has a treasury, but it can't be big enough to repair all the damage done to the entire continent. Edelgard's reign will probably start off with a MAJOR recession that will take years to solve. The other endings will have this as well, but since they don't have such major political changes to make, it will comparatively be easier to manage. 3. After Rhea's death, Edelgard starts a shadow war against the Agarthans. Remember that she kept her earlier alliance with them a secret from her allies. When the truth of who the Slitherers are and what role Edelgard had with ther comes to light, that is going to hurt the relations between Edelgard and her friends. 4. Edelgard wants to appoint leaders based on merit instead of crests. The problem is, merit is subjective. How do you DECIDE who's worthy of a job? Do you take someone who is better at the task at hand, or someone who is rich enough to pay off part of the national debt? Both have merit, from a certain point of view. Not to mention, having a Crest has merit, too. Crests allow one to wield a Hero's Relic, which makes them much more powerful than any regular soldier. The Crest System definitely has its problems, but it was much more manageable. You have a Crest, you inherit land. This merit system is much more vague, and invites even more infighting and corruption. 5. Speaking of Crest Bearers, what about territories that NEED people with Crests? The Gautier family for example NEEDS an heir with a Crest to use the Lance of Ruin against the neverending Sreng raids. The same thing goes for the Goneril famity fighting off the Almyran bandits. Holst may be strong enough to protect the Locket without a Crest, but he is the exception, not the rule. If Crests disappear, Fodlan becomes much more vulnerable to outside threats, and there are plenty of neighbouring countries who wish to invade. With Dimitri dead, the Tragedy of Duscur remains unsolved, and they'll want a piece of Fodlan as well. 6. Crimson Flower is the only route that views the Crest System as a problem of the Church. The other routes treat it more as a problem with greedy nobles destroying their families for Crests. And usually these problems are solved in character endings, where the Crestbearing students just decide to become less shitty than their parents. In short, Crimson Flower's ending sounds nice on paper, but realistically speaking it's by far the worst possible outcome for Fodlan.

[@PKRockin7]

Another banger of a video The only thing I really disagree on is that Dimitri and Claude having clearer goals. Claude's goal is simply dismantling the borders between nations and leaving Fodlan to Byleth, with no real longterm plan to deal with. It's a nebulous, optimistic goal but there are too many variables to consider. It makes sense of his comments aren't literal, and "destroying the borders between countries" is closer to "getting rid of Fodlan's isolationist mindset and fostering racial harmony..." which makes more sense, though is easier said than done. Dimitri doesn't really talk about his plans for Fodlan at all, and all of it is left to endgame text. We get a fledging constitutional monarchy, but there aren't too many details beyond that. His goals being fuzzy is less of a problem for him than Claude since his arc was strictly about his personal growth and they did a very good job of that The other thing i'd like to point out is that Edelgard outlines her goals in Constance's support, though I can't exactly blame you for overlooking it; it's clear they used Constance as a bandage to verbalize what Edelgard's actual plans for her new united Empire is

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I missed out on Edelgard's support with Constance, but I still think that Ferdinand's support with Edelgard shows a sort of blind spot in her understanding of the crest system. You're definitely right about Claude not having a specific governmental system in place and Dimitri only having his government described in the end. The goals that I was referring to was more about clear positive values that aren't defined by opposition to another force. Most of Edelgard's values and plans for her victory are predicated on denying the church's previous system. Claude's dream to open up the world is a goal that isn't justified in its resistance to another value system. Dimitri is interesting because for most of the game he's entirely reactionary to Edelgard, which as you said keeps him from really establishing his own direct goals. But his character development over the game causes him to realize that he can make the suffering of war mean something by applying his values to a new political system; as opposed to reacting to others all the time. Thanks for the feedback though! I wish I picked up on the Constance support, so I'll probably just watch all the ashen wolves supports before my next video so I don't miss out on anything again lol

[@PKRockin7]

​@@ordinaryunits4341 Ahh, I see what you mean now. Personally, I don't think there's something inherently wrong with having values predicated on opposing something. Feudalism is an awful, miserable state of existence and wanting to do everything in your power to destroy that is a positive in a way (though in practice, that means war and war is... also an awful and miserable state of existence). That said, Claude and Dimitri are only really able to apply that clear positive force /because/ of Edelgard's war shaking up the system. Like you pointed out, it hits especially hard in Dimitri's case because he was able to take that awful war of hers and have it mean something. I think that's why i'm kind of bullish on the whole "she didn't have to start a war" argument. If the people in power prevent real, meaningful societal change from happening (see Tragedy of Duscur) it's difficult to see a future where things can simply be talked out. Ferdinand's support with Edelgard is extremely revealing, though it does tie back to her character progression in part 2 (at least in supports). Instead of tackling everything on her own, she becomes reliant on others. It's undeniable that she's foolish for going this far without planning anything concrete, but it's also kind of... nice, how she's open and honest about her inability to progress without the aid of people like Ferdinand, who challenge her and get her to consider other viewpoints. Basically she's a blunt hammer while her friends (and herself, to an extent) are the builders. I think that's why i'm not too worried about Edelgard's rule potentially descending into total totalitarianism; her friends and allies do a lot of heavy lifting to ensure Fodlan prospers even without her (notable in the Hubert/Ferdinand ending which explicitly states this). And no problem. I really do love your analysis videos, because it's clear you aren't really biased one way or another. This sort of grounded, open-minded analysis makes for a great watch in general. PS: Definitely check out that Constance support with Edelgard. Not evenly necessarily just for the explanation of her system of governance but also just because it's this fun and at times hilarious support chain

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I definitely agree that no profound change could have been brought about without Edelgard because she serves a necessary role in the life cycle of ideas/systems, by destroying the prominent idea/system to leave room for the creation of new ones. Once the authority of the church is effectively destroyed that leaves room necessary for people like dimitri and claude to rebuild society beyond the previous value structure of the church. I went into that specific idea a little bit in my rhea video, but maybe one day making a video on it in depth if people think its interesting enough. Also I agree that being antithetical isn't bad in and of itself, but when placed within the context of edelgard trying to overcome the crest system it could potentially fall short. Because her opposition to the church could perpetuate its values by continuing to acknowledge the value structure established by the church. I totally agree with Ferdinand's support with her, it highlights both her flaws and strengths. Showing her character development in crimson flower and her brash attitude. Thanks! I try my best not to let my bias slip because I want people to come to the own takes on the character, while also homing in on a particular trait/narrative with the character to provide some perspective on the character. And I will I liked constance in the side story so I'm sure her supports will be fun

[@maxrichards3881]

Ziodyne They used Hapi as a bandage so that Dimitri can finally fight against TWSITD, who escaped during the clash of Enbarr.

[@PKRockin7]

@@maxrichards3881 Horrible, awful bandage Post epilogue resolutions are such garbage in general 3H needs a sequel so we can see this shit

[@Mgauge]

Edelgard’s ideals are nice, but she’s hampered by her lack of self reflection and arrogance. She always believes herself to be in the right and, while she can admit fault sometimes, isn’t capable of having her primary goals shaken. When she gains full power, she’ll enact a system that makes perfect sense and is very fair in her mind, but she won’t be willing to change it when people she doesn’t have a personal relationship with question her. Meritocracy sounds nice, in theory, but doesn’t work in practice because “merit” is a vague term. Making a system that can judge merit in any objective sense is impossible because there are so many different views on what it even means. The worst part is that she shows Rhea’s willingness to lie whenever it suits her needs. No matter what sort of system she places, it’s foundation is just as based on false, politically motivated mythology as Rhea’s church was. Meaning that it will have to be enforced by violence to prevent the truth that could inspire rebellion from the many parties that would disapprove of her. It’s ultimately just as controlling and destructive as the Church was, but it doesn’t have a powerful, immortal ruler to watch over it in the long term. It will inevitably fracture one day because it is hardly an improvement over the old system. She’s already shown how dark she is willing to go to ensure her dream becomes real. Gaining more power will just extend what she would deem “acceptable losses” because the “greater good” she excuses them will only expand with her new scope. Bottom line, Edelgard is doomed to fail to make the ideal society she desires. Byleth’s intervention would just prolong the inevitable.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

I think one of the interesting aspects of Edelgard's character is how her negative traits seem to mirror Rhea's to a certain extent. And some could see that as her repeating the mistakes of Rhea or using Rhea's mentality to achieve "good ends"

[@shadownight9956]

You totally ignored half of the game but whatever

[@tirex3673]

Wait, but Edelgard does explain her system to replace the nobility in her A-Support with Constance.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Oh interesting I hadn't seen their support chain yet so thanks for pointing that out! Just to be clear I only meant to point out that her conversation with ferdinand showed a blind spot in her understanding of the nobility, which likely comes from her understandably adversarial role against the noble/crest system.

[@adrianadamsson6757]

@@ordinaryunits4341 Fortunately, Ferdinand is a major player in Edelgard's new regime as the new Prime Minister. So his views and opinions also affect the future of Fodlan as he has quite a lot of influence on Edelgard. The idea to implement free education across the empire was also his idea and is one of the best suggestions in the entire game. The thing is, it isn't only Edelgard who will shape the future, but also the people she puts in power, which includes many of the former Black Eagle Strikeforce members and whoever else happened to join her side. All who could give Edelgard useful advice and help shape the future when she is uncertain how to proceed. Also, if Ingrid and Lorenz happened to have joined her, they also become massively influential in imperial politics in their solo endings.

[@ilo3456]

@@adrianadamsson6757 The way that I feel about Edelgard is that she is not anywhere near perfect but she has plenty of people around her to help her make up for what she lacks, to help her see what she may not, and with Byleth by her side she can have someone she trusts with her life who will always be by her side and encourage her to take the best path possible for the future. She is someone capable of drawing people to her side, and she with Byleth's help grows into someone capable of listening to others and understanding their opinions and points of view, which is one of the most important things for a ruler, she learns something from her supports with every member of the Black Eagle Strike Force, Byleth will forever be a teacher to Edelgard, someone who will always help her learn more and more about how to be a good ruler and to take the right path.

[@adrianadamsson6757]

@@ilo3456 I agree, the fact that Edelgard is willing to listen to her friends in the Black Eagle Strike force does make her a better ruler than she could've ever been on her own. It isn't just Byleth either, but people like Ferdinand and Dorothea has been able to come up with excellent suggestions. Edelgard does need her advisors.

[@ilo3456]

​@@adrianadamsson6757 I feel like without Byleth she wouldn't actually be as willing to listen to others, because she is a lot more tempered in the Crimson Flower route compared to if you side with another house. I think that us as Byleth siding with Edelgard makes her feel much more calm and safe, which is something that she needs to be able to grow, because our opinion of Edelgard matters a lot to her either as her teacher or as her lover in either case she care of what we think. If you are against her she in my opinion becomes more closed off because she can't afford to question if she is right or not since she is basically in it for whatever the result may be at that point. Because Edelgard is shown to be not as open dealing with others until we come around, she is proud and unable to understand others, I think her interactions with Byleth help her introspect and grow more as a person and as a friend. I honestly loved Edelgard and could not ever dare think about raising my sword against her, I knew that even if she was doomed I was going to be doomed by her side, if we were fated to meet our end we would do it together and I would fight against that fate with all at my disposal. I even developed strategies to kill as few people as needed in our battles, I believed in her and her ideals, every time we had to fight the former students of the other houses I would avoid killing as many as I physically could and only kill the main targets. I developed my strategy with Bernie which I dubbed the SEAL Team Bernie, Bernie was my most OP archer and I would teleport her behind the enemy and do everything I could to have her kill the main target in 1 round. I mourned every person we had to kill to reach our goal, many of them I even considered friends, most of the people who served the church I had come to think of as friends, so I had to kill them with a certain level of pain to my own heart. I felt sad for Dimitri who had so thoroughly lost himself, that those around him suffered because of it, they were all sacrifices I needed to deal with in the road to a better future, they weren't obstacles, they were friends who sadly could never understand what we aimed to do. I want to think that at the end Edelgard, the Black Eagles and me, we all truly managed to achieve a much better future, I also imagine Edelgard and Byleth living somewhere far away in their old age after handing the keys to a new generation, with a small monument to lost friends.

[@toriwork8891]

I have a few questions about CF's ending that have always made me question it. How do you feel about Edelgard controlling art in her paired ending with Dorothea? The fact Edelgard alone can ban and unban whatever content she sees fit reeks of dystopian regimes, and has always made me see CF as a sort of possibly very dark ending, especially when combined with Edelgard's and Hubert's authoritarian leadership. I also wonder about the lack of forward mobility of any commoners in CF's endings. It's strange that some commoners (i.e. Alois) get demoted rather than anyone getting promoted outside of a single ending with Manuela. Not even Dorothea gets to play any sort of role in politics, but Bernie even in endings where she won't leave her room keeps her authority. I question Edelgard's intelligence as a leader as well after her support with Ferdinand. She starts a war knowing hundreds of thousands of people will die because she believes her new world order is worth all that death, but she doesn't even think about/consider something as basic as inequality, which makes me wonder what other gaping holes are in her system that, as I see it, isn't worth all the chaos she started. Finally, I question Edelgard's idea of meritocracy and often hypocritical behavior towards it. She claims people should rise and fall on their own merit, yet openly takes credit for Byleth's accomplishments, and Byleth him/herself doesn't seem to ever get accredited or promoted in most endings. I also wonder how a meritocracy will lessen the value of crests. Someone with a crest will have a natural advantage over those without and seems to, if anything, only increase the importance of crests as the importance of bloodline no longer competes with it. Nabateans also seem completely excluded from her system. Someone who lives forever (or quite a bit longer) would definitely have some advantages in some positions (like a teacher), but Edelgard seems to barely recognize them as human, constantly dehumanizing them as beasts. They're just another aspect of Fodlan that exists that does not work in the system she wants to implement.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Yeah Edelgard has a lot of blind spots in her worldview, whether its her misunderstanding of history or her radical actions in starting her war; but that's what I think makes the character so interesting as an antagonist within most of the routes. I didn't know about her control over art in her ending with dorothea so thanks for pointing that out! But honestly I think its quite in line with her previous actions because Edelgard seems to be the type of ruler that wants to protect others and act on their behalf even if it strips away their freedom. I also heard and interesting point from someone else that count bergleiz was one of the corrupt nobles, but he retained his authority because he was useful in Edelgard's war. So that can cast some potential doubt on the meritocracy just as you were saying. I see what you mean with Edelgard's support with Ferdinand, but to me its not an issue of intelligence, but one of being too dismissive. Edelgard almost entirely writes off the noble/crest system in her opposition to it and has a hard time seeing any value or virtue in it, even though there is as shown through ferdinand's point and through rhea's charity to the downtrodden of fodlan, as shown in cyrils support with claude. Finally the Nabiteans really get screwed over in the crimson flower route, which is a shame because it seems like they genuinely wished to help and care for humanity and they just end up getting punished for it.

[@dancingmajora6822]

@@ordinaryunits4341 Honestly is she really banning art it's just one drama of the journey of her war and besides it is just used as comedy in that paired ending. I think we can exclude that the ban in arts argument before in gets out of hand. Also I don't see how Hubert's and Edelgard's paired ending is overly authorative since they do implement reforms to allow people to be independent and let's not forget Hubert does actions against Edelgard's wishes.

[@ilpuntodigf]

@@dancingmajora6822 what that guy just used are basically headcanons and misinterpretations to make Edelgard look bad If you use the same way of thinking towards other routes these as well will crumble

[@dancingmajora6822]

@@ilpuntodigf I know and I don't think like that with other routes.

[@ilpuntodigf]

@@dancingmajora6822 of course, because that's bullshit The endings themselves are proof of how good each ending is Like, these people don't realise that if any of these endings were "bad" they wouldn't get as many "everlasting peace" end-cards as they do But hey, Edelgard's the bad guy let's misinterpret what the interview said and categorize her character as just a villain so like her route It's dumb

[@NapaCat]

Pros of Crimson Flower: Social mobility. Pretty obvious, but as someone else said, Fodlán was on it's way to that anyway. Cons: -Crests are as important as ever. Meritocracy works via merit. Merit is helped by Crests. -If assassination squads are needed to put down rebellions, it isn't stable. -Edelgard has no way to guide it for centuries, combined with rebellion being implied to be a frequent thing this would be the end of her system. -To rise and fall on one's merits means to fall if you are old. Age can dull one's mental sharpness and hinder their movement. -TWSITD possibly survives. That is a BIG issue. -It's a literal dictatorship. -Flayn and Seteth, two people whose only crimes are not being humans, are usually killed. That doesn't set a very good precedent at all for other country relations. Discount this point if you want. -The system is so vulnerable it would only be able to last a few generations. -People may rise or fall on what the current politics of the nation is rather than merit. -merit is subjective.

[@DHVF28]

It’s confirmed that they eliminate TWSITD after the main story ends, but I agree with all of your other points.

[@Pablo_Martin_aa]

Killing seteth and flayn makes me dislike crimson flower alot

[@genericyoutubeaccount4756]

@@Pablo_Martin_aa you do not have to tho.

[@genericyoutubeaccount4756]

i see you did not play the route none of what you said is true.

[@Pablo_Martin_aa]

@@genericyoutubeaccount4756 from edelgard conversation vs flayn and seteth in other routes its clear she would want them dead for being a "child of the goddess "

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Edelgard`s "New Dawn" has been already picked apart by more talented people than her and I hope I have not to repeat myself, but here is a short summary of the faults of her system and her Ideals: System: -Meritocracy will discriminate people who cannot fit into the mole, even if they have value and thus becomes very ableist and very social Darwinistic as Ashnard in FE 9 has shown us. It's as Dimitri said, her methods are that of the strong and will only help the strong. - Nobility still survives and will have still the power and can still inherit and pass that title to their children by using Money and their vast amount of resources to gain the system in their favor, even with public Education - Crests still exist and give power to the few and that can help them gain more power, despite her insistence that Crest does not matter that much. -Trying to erase the Church and the Kingdom from the people's memory is cultural genocide and will not be easy, let alone be achievable in a lifetime, especially if the Evidence can paint her as a villain if Revisionism can happen again. - It's a Meritocratic Dictatorship, do I have to say more? Ideals: -Hypocritical in multiple ways: 1. She claims that Crests do not matter that much and that they are to blame for the World`s problems, yet glorifies the power of the Herorelics and prides with their power as a "Creation of Mankind". 2. Believes the Children of the Goddess to be inhuman monsters, yet she and her Lapdog Hubert show even less Humanity than Rhea, Flayn, and Seteth. 3. Says she is not against the faith, yet tries to kill the founders of that faith and even the Cumulation of her story is the death of the Goddess. 4. Claims that Claude cannot be trusted the future of Fódlan, due to his "lack" of Knowledge about it's suffering, yet her Knowledge leaves A FUCKTON TO BE DESIRED, I mean Herorelics being some great achievement of Humanity? They are literally tools of Genocide and more insidious than almost any "Holy" weapon in the entire series, even counting the Darksphere from the Archanea series. - Not everyone can fit into the system and should be judged based on moral conduct rather than "merit and that life should be valued, due to its existence( unless that life intends to destroy every other life due to idiot justifications like Racial supremacy like the Agarthans). - Why has she no interest in Almyra, why only Fódlan? and speaking of which, why never try to ally with Dimitri and Claude? Oh yeah, because she thinks she is better when she is not. Also, another problem I have is that the History she creates will lead to an expansionist Empire( If we can ignore the erasure of the Church`s and Fearghus`s history). Now the people of Fódlan will view themselves as the Enlightened ones, the ones that freed themselves from the tyranny of an old superstitious Religion that halted their progression and created a dark age of oppression and torture by a foreign and an inhuman race of shapeshifting Dragons and only after they freed forcefully themselves from them, they attain their freedom, regardless of all the loss of Innocent lives, as they lead to these "Enlightened ones" existence and thus created the apex of the World. They achieved equality( to a very arbitrary limit) and "greatness", now it's up to them to spread that Glory to the other continents, to these strange and lesser, much darker-skinned people( As If the existence of Claude doesn't prove that they are equal in intellect, though Claude is smarter than almost anyone) like those of Almyra and Brigid. I know that sounds hella racist and I am sorry if that really sounds insulting, but that's the point I wanted to make, it encourages Military dominance and for that reason, I think CF is bad amongst other things. You can feel free to agree and disagree with me here and share your thoughts in the comment section.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment! A lot of the points you make are fair criticisms of Edelgard's system and ideals. I really think the most interesting aspect to focus on is the potential flaws of her meritocracy as you pointed out.

[@theredsir869]

There is some historical precedent to what you say. During the so called "Enlightenment Era" (And perhaps before even that) in European history many of the big boy empires used the idea of moving past religious superstitions to justify many of the things they did, which they backed with pseudo-science and other philosophical beliefs while discrediting or ignoring the advancements made by the scores of catholic monks who were the scientist of the medieval era. Not to say that religion was wiped out or anything so drastic; but the idea that progress has been a linear thing with humanity always getting better by breaking off the shackles of the past is a perpetuated falsehood. For example the status of women has been an up and down rollercoaster throughout European history; ever shifting between time and location. As a matter of fact many of the more negative sensibilities that we attribute to the medieval times were actually post-renaissance philosophies to Victorian era beliefs (And even this is a bit of an oversimplification.) That isn't to suggest the medieval times was anywhere near our modern standards, only pointing out that sometimes what we perceive to be progress can actually be us taking steps back. Or sometimes it will have the Medieval 2: Total War Drunkard effect when in that game if one of your generals became a drunk their child would almost be guaranteed to have the Hates Alcohol trait, which in turn would lead their child to rebel against their father's strictness and get the drunk trait their grandfather had; creating a cycle where nobody seems to really progress in any meaningful besides technology which as I mentioned is rarely even slightly attributed to efforts of past scholars. Of course it can be argued that just as the Enlightenment Era demonized the medieval times and romanticized ancient Greece, Rome, and other such civilizations; I must consider that I am doing the very same thing to the Enlightenment-Colonial-Victorian Eras: demonizing them while putting a positive light on the Medieval times. Showing how I even by explaining this perpetuate the cycle even to a minor degree. Of course this is simply the conclusion I have come to looking at history and I encourage others to come to their own conclusions from what research they do. You may find that you disagree with me across all margins which is just as valid if argued in good faith.

[@NapaCat]

Frankly, even if TWSITD are eliminated in CF, the Empire is shaped by Edelgard. Edelgard who was manipulated deeply by the Agarthans. Edelgard whose every decision was shaped by her manipulation. The society was heavily shaped by TWSITD. And the secret assassination force meant to put down rebellions? She knows that it isn't likely to be stable. Combined with her shortened lifespan, she won't be able to keep the system on track for more than a few decades. Rhea maintained peace for 700 years, by virtue of her immortality and large amount of influence. Without both of those keystones, her system likely would've collapsed centuries ago. So... a society shaped by a woman deeply influenced by TWSITD who won't be able to maintain it for very long, and also is unstable. Bad end.

[@resistancearmy5385]

TWSITD literally have no influence in how Edelgard wishes to reshape Fodlan. All they do is make the imperial army strong enough to fight the Church of seiros until they are eventually killed by her. As for her not being immortal that's what finding a successor is for. Like in the real world future generations are supposed to be entrusted with maintaining governmental systems. America's republic didn't fall apart despite the fact that the founders aren't immortal. This applies to the other two lords as well since they aren't immortal. Also I question how much the church actually played a role in any peace on the continent. With the exception of Loog's rebellion the church never plays a role in any of Fodlan's wars. The other nations are left to fend for themselves. Not that I necessarily see this as a bad thing but the church doesn't really get involved in Fodlan's politics much.

[@NapaCat]

Constance's CF ending proves that nobility still exists in CF. "For her service in war, and her innovations in magic, Constance von Nuvelle was among the first to receive peerage from Emperor Edelgard. Though her noble house was given no guarantee of power on a hereditary basis, Constance made certain that House Nuvelle would be valued as the leader in magical research and development for generations to come." It's not necessarily getting hereditary power, but noble houses still exist. Also, Constance/Jeritza's ending outrifht proves that there is Imperial nobility.

[@IanJulian02]

Nobility still exist in Edelgard’s world, but it’s clear it’s rooted in merit, strength, and kindness, at least on paper. They still need heads of state. They still need people to govern regions of the map. It’s just a matter of language. We have mayors, governors, presidents, etc. Edelgard is changing the way the system works, but she’s not changing the language because it doesn’t need to change.

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

If the Church really destroyed Arianrhod, why didn't they do it on Enbarr?

[@resistancearmy5385]

Because it wasn't actually the church.

[@tahamohammad8842]

Simple, it wasn’t the church. It was TWSITD

[@worthywill9294]

R/swoooosh

[@lordhasen]

I think one factor to consider is that with the church did slow down the development of certain technologies such as the printing press. Also I think there is an good chance that Edelgard will allow research into TWSITD technology and magic. While I don't think that they will be able to straight up copy TWSITD technology, they may be able to learn enough to jump start the first and second industrial revolution.

[@Crescendo961]

Doesnt her Feh incarnation refute this? Granted i believe this is the Hegemon/Fallen incarnation of herself or whichever we saw in forging bonds But the abridged version is Im not just going to let any idiot take over, or just let rampant ideas run wild either. Basically doubling down on the idea that she basically just becomes Rhea herself faults and all. And will keep a tight grip on anything that could cause destabilization or undermine what shes attempting to build. I think technology like that of the snake people might at best be slowly integrated but are just as likely to be refused because of what the resulted in, with regards to her childhood. Removing the System of Crests doesnt exactly remove Crests themselves and their merits. Pursing those merits would probably not exactly line up with her ideals

[@avatarwarmech]

To be honest I feel that it would have had much better writing if edgrlaud killed rhea by but it just died right there that would have been a much better ending

[@ordinaryunits4341]

That could be interesting, but I like the ending as is with some people enjoying Edelgard's success and others interpreting the ending as a continuation of Rhea's cycle

[@avatarwarmech]

@@ordinaryunits4341 what I meant to say byleth dying would have been much better right writing because he killed rhea and that crest heart was keeping him alive instead of you know just plot armor and it coming to life

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Ah ok I see what you're saying and I think I agree

[@avatarwarmech]

@@ordinaryunits4341 she went on The conquest to destroy the church to re-change fodlan and she end up destroying what is close to her that have been much more impactful if he would have just died instead of just came to life and then she would have gone on to regret her decisions and change her character for the better and thought about all that she did and to question was it really worth it in the end that would have made it much more better if that would happen

[@Hesauce]

Something that makes me personally see Crimson Flower as one of the better endings is the fact that Byleth loses their crest which, to me, implies that Crimson Flower is probably the best ending for Byleth's own happiness since they could be able to feel more emotion than in any other ending

[@ordinaryunits4341]

Yeah! I think that byelth becoming human again is also symbolic of humanity freeing themselves from the influence of nabiteans which could be good. Part of me wishes that we saw more of byleth when after the influence of the crest stone was gone.

[@LegateLynx]

​@@ordinaryunits4341 I wonder if the crest stones that descendants of the ten elites (Faerghus and Leicester nobles) have and those of Seiros and other Nabataeans (Adrestian nobles) constitute a dual essence on part of the bearers like Byleth. Not of the magnitude and circumstance of birth to be bodily and spiritually bound with the Nabataean, but more like carrying a recessive trait that makes these nobles part Nabataean. In a sense, Edelgard is then finishingthe job of Nemesis and the Agarthans by extirpating the (possibly) living remnants of the Nabataeans- their crests which manifest by chance in successive generations. Humans get to be entirely human at the cost of being able to revive lost Nabataeans in a manner like Byleth’s birth. I suppose it's possible that the manipulations that fashioned crests from the Nabataean bodies would prevent the manifestation of the lost inhabitants of Zanado. Unless there is some metaphysical benefit to being platonically human, what is a valid reason to get rid of crests? Edelgard’s cynicism and anecdotal experience leads her to hate the existence of crests and ensconce her feeling of crests in lofty rhetoric of equalizing opportunity in Fodlan and making its society meritocratic. She changes the political order through bloodshed for a whim. She sees one side of crests, not considering the In universe potential of crests for purposes of defense, intellectual or economic pursuits. At present these are benefits that apply to one person, but Hanneman works on a means of democratizing crest powers in the epilogue. Charitably, she does not want oligarchy by people who merely inherit superhuman abilities, rather favoring a chance for those who guile or industry to dominate. History does show the superiority of appointed rulers over hereditary monarchs. Would she go after those who lack crests but have a family history of high intellect or wealth? She lacks the ace-in-the-hole advantage of crests to win against post war usurpers or irredentists. She’s oblivious to Hubert’s Machiavellian scheming, and will cause a stratocratic struggle with her death (an immortal manipulative Rhea or Byleth could sidestep this). If she would use the crest to rule despite banning crests it would be Fodlan hypocritical realpolitik. Edelgard’s ostensible issue with crests is their ability to concentrate absolute power in the hands of a few, which can mean a few powerful opponents or loyal regional governors. Without crests everyone is near equally suited to secede from Adrestia or reestablish Faerghus. I may be overrating crests but they do say that Gautier single-handedly keeps its estate defended from Sreng. It would interesting to see how Edelgard establishes order and the degree of devolution after the war. Finally, Nabataeans may have controlled humans at times and their immortality may have been a source of mistrust/envy. Still, Nabataeans and crests have been a boon to humans in elevating the potential of their whole as a bequest to a few. It’d be cool to see more theological schisms in Fodlan should people find out Rhea orthodoxy is fake and that Byleth is Sothis and mortal at the same time. Something akin to Nicaean Christianity vs Arianist and Miaphysite.

[@toriwork8891]

Byleth is also losing enlightment/nirvana, and CF is the only route where Byleth gets not credit for what they did or a significant role in forming the future (Edelgard straight-up tells Byleth she's taking credit for all his/her actions). Since Byleth is such a flat character, it's horribly unfair to assume this is their happiest ending, especially since one of Byleth's few actual character traits is enjoying helping others, something only CF doesn't let them do.

[@redragon88]

@@toriwork8891 Losing nirvana? Way to be overdramatic. He's just getting rid of the hold the nabateans have on him and can finally live as a human, but somehow you want to frame it as bad in order to push your argument. Just like that lie about Edelgard taking Byleth's credit. People like you that argue in bad faith are just trash.

[@toriwork8891]

​@@redragon88 One man's trash is another's treasure, but no one likes he who resorts to petty, personal insults in online discussions about fictional characters. You're also just wrong. There's a lot of Buddhist symbolism that gets lost in the English translation and to Western audiences for obvious reasons. Byleth's personal class is called "Nirvana" in Japanese, which he or she loses in CF only among other Buddhist symbolism. Also, one of the very first things Edelgard says after the time-skip is that she's going to take credit for Byleth's leaderships so she looks better in the eyes of the populace. It's like . . . right in the script.

[@genericyoutubeaccount4756]

there is a lot of wrong in this video.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

cool

[@acedelta12]

Anyone who disagrees with Edelgard’s path either stans the insane king, claims the useless schemer has a “tactical mind”, or is thirsty for the selfish archbishop.

[@ordinaryunits4341]

"The Useless Schemer"💀

[@acedelta12]

It’s true. He just sits aside and lets Edelgard do the dirty work before having her killed off and continuing it from there, in his own route. And in all the others, he ditches Fodlan after losing (unless you kill him in Crimson Flower).

[@soba.]

It's easy to disagree with edelgard when the changes she proposes won't really change much about fodlan aside from what basically equates to changing some numbers around. Dimitri I can almost understand but like it's a moot point because if you like him its because you valued his character growth, not what his ideal future fodlan would like. (Even if it's arguably one of the better outcomes overall) Claude is plenty tactical - manipulating gloucester into being unable to reinforce empire forces + using crest of flames as a banner to rally the church behind is crafty. Plus, if edie did all of that hard work putting her eggs in one basket dealing with the church without accounting for easily it could come crashing down if she didnt deal with claude properly thats her own fault. Anyone couldve taken advantage of it, it doesnt take a particularly tactical mind

[@acedelta12]

So having a government focused on having people see their own potential bear fruit is barely different from a government that prioritizes whether you have something you can’t control the consistency of or not?

[@soba.]

first off, it's not like people without crests are second class citizens in fodlan - there are even plenty of influential noble families that are crestless. edelgard assumes that dismantling the crest based system will magically put people on equal footing. it won't. nobility still has money which they will always be able to use to their advantage. e.g. considering there are commoners at garreg mach and schools in this universe will likely follow a similar enrollment process, do you think that people wouldn't just game the system and get their kids into good schools by virtue of having the gold to spend?