Efficiency test LTO Yinlong battery

The test ended up showing a higher efficiency than I expected, it seems nearly too high. I conducted the test with as robust of a technique as I thought I could do with the equipment that I have.
Affiliate links:
Battery Load
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This is an updated version that I haven't bought yet, but will. It has a 4 wire connection and improved connectors so will be way more accurate.
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Watt meter
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Power supply: This is a decent grunty supply (fairly expensive) It's not really suitable as a lab supply since it has large capacitance on the output - this means that if you are current regulating a sensitive device that has changing loads (driving an LED or something) it could temporarily overcurrent the device. Great for charging batteries or just a good constant current constant voltage supply for general purpose. 32 Volt 32Amp. I've tried the smaller form factor supplies similar to this, however they do not seem to be as good or robust.
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[@WillProwse]

Why are people thinking that I am disagreeing with Brendon? The comments below are driving me nuts. I had grade b cells (which I mentioned was a possibility in that video), and I pulled full capacity in my part two video. Why are commenters below thinking that brendon is challenging me or disagreeing with me? I think this video and the last one that brendon posted are great. I still prefer LiFePO4, but LTO is awesome in its own regard. But why the bad attitude in the comment section?

[@brendontait6968]

Haha, I know right... everyone thinks we have beef lol

[@WillProwse]

@@brendontait6968 right?! I'm enjoying your videos and people think I disagree with you or something. I don't understand. I can't wait to see what else you build and further test with LTO. It's awesome

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks mate, am gonna play with any chemistry I can get my hands on (can be pretty difficult this part of the world, a little jealous that things are so much easier to get hold of in the states).

[@justicelee26]

I honestly think LTO is quite fascinating. I just can’t afford to build a big pack with it and I’m just more comfortable with LiFePo4. I’m glad someone else can teach me more about them.

[@micnolmadtube]

Probably because the vast majority of people are too stupid to do any thought process of their own.

[@BrassLock]

I'm enjoying this ongoing discussion and gradually learning stuff about battery chemistry. Thanks for the lessons Brendon, you're a fast talker so I play the videos at 75% normal speed 😃; gives my 76 year old brain time to process the incoming data.

[@brendontait6968]

Haha, thanks Dav. I feel that I'd lose a bunch of people if I talked slowly. Glad KZbin has that option for you! I'm going to be covering a bunch of stuff and doing both beginner and advanced videos. Glad you're learning some.

[@ahikernamedgq]

Thanks for the video, Brendon. These cells are really compelling. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and observations working with them. Really love the build of how you used them in your van. Cheers!

[@brendontait6968]

My pleasure!

[@JockeSelin]

Thanks very much, Brendon! I really appreciate you taking on stuff like this.

[@brendontait6968]

No problem Jocke

[@sprinterdiscovery]

My entire life I've had a difficult time understanding electricity. Your videos are so well explained I finally get it. Thanks!! Subscribed!

[@brendontait6968]

Hey, I'm glad they are helping. I'm going to be doing a lot more with in depth detail.

[@solarwiseph4573]

The safest, fastest ,longest lasting and cheapest per cycle.

[@HANDMADEX]

It just takes up a little too much space. For me, can be ignored.

[@sayyidsahal4533]

May not be cheaper than lead acid

[@gryyta9617]

@@sayyidsahal4533 is cheaper...if i remember almost half the price

[@RP-hn1qc]

​@@sayyidsahal4533At 1C LTO are good for over 25,000 cycles to 60% remaining battery life after all those cycles.

[@GrohlNovoselic]

For weeks I study just to understand this short video.. Finally I fully understand.. worth subscribing your channel and I hope to see more content on this LTO battery.. Thank you 🙏

[@brendontait6968]

Glad you took the time. I'm going to be doing a bunch more. Cheers

[@MrKarlPrince]

Another indicator is heat given off during charge and discharge, those cells would cook very quickly with their relatively small surface area to capacity if they were inefficient. Keep up the good work.

[@brendontait6968]

Definitely!

[@flyguille]

If they cook. It will be bad in this test, because more energy would loss in heat.

[@sschmachtel8963]

Yep but a low CE does not necessarily give you heat it can also split electrolyte and similar which requires more energy. Though low ce will also destroy the battery most likely. Because where would all this 15% electricity go? Do something else which doesn't sound good

[@eppp]

The larger the battery the less surface area to volume ratio, heat has less area to dissipate.

[@matthewclarkson8688]

Brendon, So great to see another video. You have a unique approach of practicality and technical information, without being preachy. I place you in my top 5 KZbin channels. Thank you. Hoping for lots more from you. Matt (Brendon, my comments are heartfelt, not an attempt to blow smoke up your arse.)

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks heaps Matthew, let me know when I get to number 2! 🤣 Have had a lot of external stuff going on, hoping to get a heap more content out.

[@ShaunOReilly]

Brendon Tait, great job! I am about to install a 3KW solar system on top of my campervan (in Auckland), which is fully functioning when opening up as an awning, otherwise 1kw while folded... These videos help allot and all the help I can get is always appreciated. Once done, I will plug my plugin hybrid on to the system at a slow 8amp charging rate, which should charge it up in 5 hours during the day.. Can't wait for all the negative comments of overkill system once I youtube the final product!

[@brendontait6968]

Sounds amazing!

[@NimblyJimbly]

Thanks for posting! Loved the video.

[@kylebianchini5668]

really cool project! i love you to do a video on the bms you used with that many cells.

[@keepingit_real5005]

Awsome thanks for the video as this has helped me to realize what batteries to get. LTO

[@derekhughes9274]

Love your work mate, keep it up. Cheers Deka.

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks Derek

[@SteveNC61]

Great logical analysis. Thanks.

[@grantrodgers2829]

Thank you. Really clear real world information again. Top man

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers Grant

[@belspace]

Thanks for sharing. I measured the same high efficiency. .

[@Sahti]

Thank you for the videos, great work!

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks joni

[@themechanicslab]

Dude, I love your video's. Its all scientific evidence which people refuse to teach and educate themselves on rather than be told what to believe. I will be honest though, electricity is one of my weak pooints and you lost me early on on the vid but you have given me a avenue to go and learn so thankyou.

[@brendontait6968]

I appreciate that! Follow along and I'm sure you'll pick it up. A lot of electronics seems overwhelming at first but when you break it down into basics it all starts to make sense.

[@lhxperimental]

This actually is extremely unscientific if not intentionally misleading. The base assumption of ignoring Round trip ENERGY efficiency is itself wrong. That is what actually matters.

[@brendontait6968]

Hey mate, I'm pretty close to blocking you from my channel. I was in no way intentionally misleading. I explained fully at the start of the video that I was measuring coulombic efficiency and not energy efficiency and mentioned the reasons why. I take time out of my weekends to make these videos for very little in return. I made sure that I was very clear about how I was going to conduct the test. To say that I am being intentionally misleading is disrespectful, unappreciated and incorrect. I'm not sure if you just like to stir shit, but I'm not going to tolerate this sort of thing in my comments.

[@nanakeyks]

Your battery pack always intrigued me as I want to build an electric only off grid camper. The fact that these can charge at -0C and the absorption rate is awesome always made a lot more sense in a situation where I'd be relying on them for overnight heat. Running high current draw things like electric showers or cookers would be perfect for the application and I think you could get around any inefficiencies with some extra solar panels, assuming your application of these allows adding a 300w solar panel which obviously rules out a lot of the smaller #vanlife type of builds.

[@pauljconroysr4080]

looking at these arnold for the same reason i got a 1969 open road catlina that i am in the process of doing a tear out on and a rebuild, which you know as in a van or a slide in camper room is at a premium. which i will be updating several components in . please keep me informed on how oyu do with these either thru here or on facebook,, thanxs

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Arnold, yeah.. I'm going "full' electric, but I think hot water heating is probably a bit ambitious even for my pack. I might use bleed power to heat HWC when battery is fully charged. But that is about all.

[@TheFastphill]

@@brendontait6968 i used a 30 L Nautic Boiler it also has a heat exchanger and you can get 300 watt element i use a 500 watt with 390 A/Hr lead battery's i got 1400 Watts solar with a 5k Victron muiti Plus

[@InfinionExperiments]

@@brendontait6968 You could get higher efficiency heating with black heat pipes circulating water into a boiler. That would eliminate the 85% efficiency losses of solar and take the stress off of your batteries. Heat pump would be a nice option for 500% COP efficiency heating as well.

[@jeffiid5609]

​@@brendontait6968 try black PVC PEX pipe solar water heater

[@mer9706]

I did more of a crude test on mine and noticed a steep drop in voltage from full charge. This made me think they were a scam. But once nominal voltage was reached they just seemed to hang out there forever, and the performance turned out to be really good. Glad to see further confirmation. They are a hefty investment and something you definitely want to be sure about.

[@brendontait6968]

Yeah for sure - they have a fairly steep charge knee at either end of the charge curve

[@aarondcmedia9585]

Nailed it. Thanks for the update.

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers Aaron

[@bathfun]

Blimey you are so clever. I have learnt something today. Thanks

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks and glad to have helped

[@JaBooBaLoo]

I love the video. Way too technical for me so I'll just trust you and your math/skills.

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks, tho the more you hear technical talk, the more familiar you'll become and the deeper understanding you'll have. Thanks

[@elizabethwinsor5140]

Integrity is valuable - you are valuable !

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers

[@patfilice]

Super good info, thank you for sharing

[@brendontait6968]

No problem

[@He110World]

Hey Brendon, good test - at least this debunks a myth before it gains popularity. Thanks for taking the time.

[@brianwilless1589]

disprove

[@He110World]

​@@brianwilless1589 (I'm not entering as foe) - but normally in the scientific community (though I do not pose as such) you'd pick out something in particular you don't agree with...Otherwise you'll view point is as good as Karens. Maybe you hold a valid point? Seems between Brendon and Will (who've conducted testing of their own) there is some form of consensus, whilst Will tested recently on 12v, 24v & 48v systems mentioning on a 12v it doesn't offer the same return as the larger voltages. Is there anything in particular you disprove of, regarding the study?

[@brad4908]

So keen for a new video from you.

[@brendontait6968]

working on one at the moment - cheers

[@1ssac1]

I'm so mad you are making so Little video recently. Take care Brendon!

[@brendontait6968]

Haha - sorry about that Tomek, I've been too busy procrastinating...

[@1ssac1]

@@brendontait6968 but Brendon - the quality of content you do, are inspiring to the other, but on the other hand, I can fully understood - that bitch is not taking "no" for an answer :P

[@InfinionExperiments]

I've had the CPS-6016 for a few years now, it is an excellent supply for the money, and very compact. Voltage goes up to 63V at 17A which is a nice bonus!

[@brendontait6968]

Hey... yeah, I find it a really good supply tho like I mentioned in the comments you have to be mindful of the high capacitance on the output if running circuits in constant current mode.

[@InfinionExperiments]

​@@brendontait6968 Totally! I make a habit of starting a load at undervoltage levels or constant current mode before dialing it up. The output capacitance is quite sizeable.

[@esusamhenodol1035]

Great video

[@fcbrants]

Another great video, thanks Brendon!! I researched LTO 2-3 years ago & I'm 99.95% certain that I read the '85% round trip efficiency' from a manufacturer spec sheet, which could have been just a poor translation / translation error. Does anybody else remember seeing that spec? Also, another funny "no formal training, just muckin about" moment: 'Great little watt meter, but it's not perfect, so I fixed it.' :-)

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks Frank, yeah... I haven't seen it aside from watching Wills video. It's possible that some of the early versions of this chemistry were at that level?

[@fcbrants]

@@brendontait6968 Yes, that's possible. I do remember the distinct impression that it was a "deal killer" for me at the time. I'm just glad you've cleared this up, thank you!!

[@solarwiseph4573]

Round trip effieciency does it incude inverter loses?

[@noobulon4334]

The 85% may be at the rated discharge rate which for lto is commonly 10c to 15c which is ridiculous for most applications (for a 40ah cell that's a 600a continuous draw!)

[@pnowikow]

Very helpful 👍

[@buchnermichel]

Interesting, first in depth look at these cells in these videos. I always was intrigued by the 10c did/charge rating. I was wondering if I could take any advantage of this 10c regarding a solar cell config in a cloudy area...I guess having an over sized array will help in a quickly filled up battery? Anyway, keep up the good work

[@brendontait6968]

I;m not sure the high charge/discharge rates are of much benefit with offgrid systems

[@bigdog1476]

Extremely safe and efficient power storage.

[@colinrogers9927]

Cool! Love your content

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks Colin

[@cjjenson8212]

Thank you. I am a complete brain fart when it comes to electronics so thanks for taking the time to explain things visually

[@brendontait6968]

No problem CJ

[@paddy2661]

Great video Brendon, very informative , you definitely deserve more subs keep it up. These batteries are a winner for sure 10amp 25% charge / discharge is perfect range. Cheers Pat

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks for that Pat. Been super busy, will get to loading some more content up soon. Cheers

[@OrionHCCC26]

Hey brendon, great video. I've been running a 6s4p bank for a few years now at 15.4v and I run it up to a 10c discharge nearly everyday for my purposes, mostly on cold temps as well, and they have performed better then any other cells I've had. My application is very demanding and I've been constantly amazed by these cells time and time again. Been using them since 2018. Nearly everything about them is amazing in my opinion. I honestly shoe off the naysayers that talk about these cells because Ive had so much real world experience with these that no one can make me think bad about them. There is another LTO cell that is 18ah, a lot smaller but much higher charge and discharge rate that I will be testing this year. I started a lithium battery business, so I have some contracts with Yinlong and a few other companies in china so I get to get a lot of these cells for low prices, which helps. Thanks for the informative videos!

[@brendontait6968]

Hey, that's great to hear. Yeah the lishens definitely are a compelling price point too

[@OrionHCCC26]

@@brendontait6968 yes, very, great cells from what I've seen

[@andrewmcclure2853]

Do you have a website or a Facebook page? Thanks for your comment.

[@TheShadowVortX]

@JTO2632 Are you still in business? Do you have a page / contact / ... ?

[@mohammedal-fateh3344]

مساء الخير ممكن سؤال من فضلك ماهيه الاسعار المخفضة التي تتحدث عنها وهل البطارية تتحمل الشحن السريع والتفريغ السريع ممكن جواب على السؤال

[@mprgscannertours]

Love your work Brendon. Any chance you could do a video on how your system could work in a yacht/catamaran as there is a huge hunger for knowledge in this space.

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Brodie, thanks. Yes, as soon as someone donates a boat to me I'll be right onto it! I'm going to be doing a bunch more battery/electrical content in the near future. Most of the stuff I do will be directly transferable to boating environments.

[@mikeg3660]

Great info. Thanks…..subscribed

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers Mike

[@Marley-ii6ls]

Great video. Thanks.

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers

[@bjrnclausen978]

Thank you for your test. The efficiency is approx 86%. The coulomb efficiency is relevant to ensure that you for a few cycles are charging and discharging to the same level. At 1:55 you say that you loose charge due to internal resistance - you are not loosing charge - you loose energy. I could calculate the correct efficiency from your video - you charged with 97,1 Wh and you got 83,4 Wh out of the battery - so the efficiency of the battery is 0,86 or 86%. - and that is actually realy good. And probably closer to 88% - you did not discharge fully....Based on this test - i will get some LiFePO4 batteries :)

[@brendontait6968]

Hi Bjorn, you are incorrect with your assertion. I even mentioned in the video why it would not be possible to use the Wh reading on the meter to measure efficiency. Check my low temperature video for more details.

[@bjrnclausen978]

@@brendontait6968 Hi Brendon. You check amp hour to see if you get wha you pay for - and whats really relevant you check Wh charging and discharging to check energy efficiency. I did not hear any viable explanation in the video. Whats your argument? Kind regards Bjorn

[@brendontait6968]

Please watch my video for low temperature testing of these cells. I explain with a lot more depth in there.

[@bjrnclausen978]

@@brendontait6968 Hello Brandon. I watched your video on low temperature testing and correct me if i am wrong - you state that you got a voltage drop of 0,5 V from relative short wire and connector. If you discharge with 10 A you are claiming wires and connectors has a resistance of 0,05 ohm (using Ohm's first law) - It should be considerably lower by a factor of 10. The units you are using are of some interest to me - i got several and are using them when I have a class that are learning about efficiency and batteries. I have tested the units against "expensive" equipment - and they are giving solid data - when they are working :) I am not at all convinced that efficiency that you state is correct......! Best regards - you are an inspiration - and i will subscribe...

[@brendontait6968]

Hi Bjorn, it is not just the connector between the device and the battery, but extended wires etc. I didn't measure the voltage drop I just mentioned 0.5V as a possible example, I had wires coming from the battery to the meter also. But even if the v drop was 0.2V, that will still give you an error of 10% in each direction if you are reading the Wh reading on that meter. To use Wh on any meter accurately, you must use a 4 wire meter. I would be very surprised if I was wrong.

[@wayne8113]

Thanks Brendon, I'm glad you did a follow up and cleared that up, appreciated

[@rfmonkey4942]

they are nice cells indeed

[@glenmitchell2643]

Hi Brendan, great vids, keep up the great work, I love them! What is your thoughts on the prismatic LTO batteries? I'm also building a Unimog RV for family travels and would like to run a couple of fridges (Engel 60 and 40l) Bit green on all this new tech...

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Glen, Thanks. I have some, but haven't played with them. Keep them compressed and don't store them at max charge voltage and they should be fine.

[@markelkins8432]

These LTO cells seem like amazing batteries - and they have the ability to be used at quite low (-20°C ?) temperatures as well. I am though confused as generally Will Prowse is also a good person to watch and he disagrees with you regarding their efficiency. I would assume any inefficiency would primarily show itself as heat? Perhaps encase the cell in an expanded polystyrene casing with a thermometer probe and repeat the exercise? Otherwise it would be great to see a video with you both in. It may be that Will has purchased sub-standard cells or something? Perhaps both run the same experiment at the same time and compare and share results? Yes - I've watched you both with respect to LTO Cells.

[@brendontait6968]

Hi Mark, I agree, Will generally does have good information. I've talked with Will and from what I understand he agrees with my take on efficiency. I think there may have been a few things playing into the results he got. Firstly and possibly most importantly I think he had B grade cells. The shrink wrap on them was different to mine which makes me think they were probably grabbed out of some bin then re wrapped and sold. Additionally - a high C rate charge and discharge will drop the efficiency which would be more pronounced with low grade cells.

[@InfinionExperiments]

Yes, Mark, any inefficiency will appear as heat, however, an experiment where you place the cell in an insulated polystyrene enclosure with thermometer isn't going to tell you anything besides turning the cell + enclosure into an oven (adiabatic walls) and trying your best to increase the case temperature of the cell as much as possible. In order to determine what the temperature of the cell was, the experimenter is encouraged to maintain steady-state conditions by conducting the experiment in an environment with a *fixed ambient temperature.* On the other hand, determining efficiency _electrically_ makes sense here because this device is made primarily for electrical energy storage. Using the watt-hour figure for total energy, and assuming the initial discharge was to 1.8V (footage was lost) we get 97.1Wh over 4h40m and 83.4Wh over 4h10 minutes. There's an extra 30 minute discrepancy here which is due to the absorption phase of charging (CV starts at 4h6m at 10A, then 0.24A at 4h24m , then 0.15A at 4h39m). The calculated energy efficiency for this charge-discharge cycle is 83.4/97.1 *100% = 85.9% while the coulombic efficiency has been proven in the video to be 41.358Ah/41.4Ah * 100% = 99.8%. _What does this mean?_ *Coulombic efficiency:* 99.8% of the electrons moved through the cell during the discharge cycle as compared to the charge cycle. Everything that happened with ions in the electrolyte, as well as the reduction and oxidation at the active material where the lithium titanite nanocrystals and the anode and cathode metal resided, were 99.8% efficient, as ion flow and electron flow have a direct correlation. *Energy efficiency:* Over a period of 4h10m, 85.9% of the energy was consumed by the load, and 13.7Wh was dissipated as heat inside the cell and along the cables. This heat is primarily influenced by the C rate of the discharge and the internal series resistance of the current collectors in the cell. Doubling the current quadruples the energy lost as heat (Ohmic power loss (Watts) = Current^2*Resistance). In order to get 99% energy efficiency, the experimenter simply needs to slow the discharge down to a 0.05C rate. This is true for any cell construction, including supercapacitors (EDLC) that have no chemical reactions taking place! Therefore, coulombic efficiency is more representative of the LTO chemistry, whereas the 86% energy efficiency is representative of the construction of the cell (length of current collector strips to electrodes, thickness of the strips, conductivity) and the system requirements.

[@InfinionExperiments]

*IMPORTANT* If you pause after 5:37 you can see the voltage drop between the watt-meter and the electrodes where the fluke multimeter is measuring voltage. There is about 0.2V dropped across this distance, which translates to 2W dissipated in the cables and contact resistance of the terminal block alone! There will be further voltage drop to the load as well, but over 4h10m this represents a massive *8.33 Wh lost as heat in the wires.* This was not accounted for in the energy efficiency calculation. The system efficiency may be 85.9% but the cell actually delivered 91.73 Wh to its electrodes, resulting in a cell energy efficiency of (83.4+8.33)Wh/97.1Wh *100% = 94.5% efficiency! This is a very good result, and I hope the experimenter uses much thicker wires in their next test, or measures the voltage drop across the thin wires and accounts for the power dissipated across them. the remaining 5.67Wh over 4h10m dissipated inside the cell and the remaining unaccounted-for wire length and contact resistance represents an average of 1.36W of energy dissipated as heat. If the current was quadruped to 40A or near 1C discharge, it would follow that the heat dissipated would increase by 8x at least (if efficiency does not decrease past 94.5%). Also it follows that any capacitor or battery that can discharge into the 1000A level must have single to low double digit milliohm internal resistance.

[@WillProwse]

I had grade b cells. I also posted a part 2 video where I pulled full capacity with higher quality cells. I did not disagree with Brendon

[@markelkins8432]

@@InfinionExperiments My suggestion of encasing the cell in an insulation layer was more about - is the cell being inefficient and generating a lot of heat. Obviously - I wasn't looking to start a fire or anything. Anyway, Will Prowse has since stated that he had grade-B cells and now with better quality cells, sees a much higher efficiency. I'm now a happy KZbin viewer.

[@GoCoyote]

Nice to see you do this test. Battery efficiency is more than just the power in vs power out ratio. Since they are electro-chemical devices, the efficiency is effected by temperature during charging and discharging, age, condition, charge/discharge rate, charge/discharge levels, self discharge rate, internal resistance, and types of use. Most people are surprised to hear that flooded lead acid deep cycle batteries used in off-grid systems are generally 94 to 98 percent efficient in the way they are used. The internal resistance has a lot of effect on the efficiency. I use the analogy of push starting a stick shift vehicle. A Volkswagen bug has low "resistance" to movement. It takes very little energy to get it moving, one person can get it going quickly. A low resistance battery takes very little energy to start charging. A small current flow will start charging the battery, and very little is lost in making heat. A large truck or lorry has very high "resistance" to moving. It takes several people a long time to get it moving. A battery with a high resistance (Large flooded lead acid) will require a certain amount off current flow just to overcome its internal resistance. This power does not even charge it, and is wasted as heat. This is why the larger the battery bank compared to the charging source, the less efficient the charging. This used to be a bigger problem in the days of cheap flooded lead acid batteries and VERY expensive PV modules. People would complain that their system wasn't charging well. I would explain that their 100 watts of PV was not really even charging their 1000 amp hour battery bank, just heating it. This is why lithium cell manufacturer's list their cell resistance in the product details sheet. The lower the resistance, the better. Just a little correction: Flooded lead acid batteries should not electrolyze very much of the water from the electrolyte under normal use, just when being equalized. But they will electrolyze some of the water from the electrolyte over time, thus the electrolyte level going down. They DO NOT recombine the oxygen and hydrogen. This can be done with flooded lead acid batteries by using a catalyzing vent cap, but it is not highly efficient, and some water is still lost. Sealed lead acid batteries, such as agm and gel, MUST NOT electrolyze the water in the electrolyte AT ALL EVER. They will "burp" the gas, and lose that water in the electrolyte permanently. Good stuff, keep up the good work.

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks for the description. I'm not sure I agree with your correction tho. As far as flooded cells go - they have not been commonplace in the RV world for a while now - I had vrla/AGM/Gel in mind when I said that the gasses recombine since they are the most popular. While some cells use catalysts to recombine, there are other methods used by different cell types. To my understanding AGM and Gel batteries DO electrolyze the water in use and they each have their own methods for gas recombination. The 'burping' indeed happens, but only when the gas production exceeds the ability of the cell to recombine the gasses.

[@GoCoyote]

@@brendontait6968 You are to kind. Life is incredible in its many opportunities to make a fool of one’s self. You are indeed correct about the gas recombination in the sealed batteries. I have actually not worked with them in a long time, and forgot about that aspect of their chemistry. Just remembered the critical aspects such as voltage and current limitations, along with the dangers of thermal runaway. Any updates on the performance of your LTO battery system performance?

[@brendontait6968]

We are all learning.... I'm not always going to be 100% correct with everything I say on here, but I'd like to think the majority of the time I'll be accurate. As far as the battery pack goes... it's great. I havent come across any issues yet and it gives me more power than I need.

[@GoCoyote]

@@brendontait6968I figure the day I stop learning will be the day I die. This is why teamwork is so effective. We can all fill in for each other’s lack of knowledge and creativity, or mistakes and forgetfulness. The best result is when we all learn and improve together. I have had children ask me “why don’t you do it like this?”, an my answer, as I stare at the obviously far better way the child asked about, is that it just didn’t occur to me. While some things are done for very valid reasons, the premise that those reasons are based on may change, or need to be re-examined. Keep up the good work, and never stop learning. It keeps us humble and appreciative of the world around us. It’s also lots of fun!

[@alancarr9465]

Hey Brendon love the video and all the effort you put in, Do you still have surplus of these batteries still

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Alan, yeah I have a few left. Message me on insta

[@sjdtmv]

Thanks Brendon for the test on overall charge and discharge capacity, My 6Kw LTO bank has been running fine with a daily 7.4kW 24hr usage which 12hrs of that being over night, sun down, running on battery only, the only problem I have had is one cell bank of the 22S 3P is not running as it should, I think that I have a partly failed cell that has let me down, this has happened since first running the bank many months ago, I will get around to load test that set of 3 cells which will be replaced, My Victron app tells me overall of 844kWh usage which about 50% would have been from battery draw down

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Ross, One thing I have read about this chemistry is that it doesn't like the be stored with high charge and high temp. That is the only thing (ither than mechanical abuse) that I've heard can make them fail early. Am interested to hear your outcome. Cheers

[@sjdtmv]

@@brendontait6968 I was very careful when tensioning the main 2 bolts and used a tension wrench just to be sure.

[@sust8n]

Thanks heaps for the good info and demonstration to back it up. Regarding getting my hands on some of these cells (in Australia, close to NZ); What is the best / cheapest method of shipping from China you have found? Or did you just go with the standard shipping from the supplier you linked to in your previous video? I tried buying some LiFePO cells and shipping was expensive (about as much as the cells, which turned out to be low quality anyway. arghh!).

[@brendontait6968]

Flick me a message on the email listed in the description in my battery video for group buy options

[@michaellong1169]

Brilliant!

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers Michael

[@gabrielbattika]

Good work

[@brendontait6968]

Thx Gabe

[@gregseward3897]

yea your right ive herd and seen that guys vid he had 5 or 6 litium titinate batt and he stated incorectly that the efficiencies where around 80 percent

[@iancroasdell]

Could you do an off grid home power wall build? Love your research and work, it looks like the batteries will make a good power wall.

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Ian, yeah I probably will. Keen to get everything in the truck sorted for summer 1st. Cheers

[@mikediamondcoxon6556]

Thanx. Mike Scotland..

[@joe0932]

Interesting video thanks, don't forget to post the link to the electronic load :)

[@brendontait6968]

Done! Thanks for the reminder... late night post!

[@propylaeen]

Most interesting battery system so far for me, would love to have a full order list for a camper plus a home solar storage solution.

[@brendontait6968]

I'm going to be looking into a home storage setup in the future, stay tuned

[@propylaeen]

@@brendontait6968 wow, great! For me the first sustainable battery solution I would tend tu use the word sustainyble so far... 30+ years is a benchmark efficiency is not the key and as you showed not the point its the momentary price tag... thats all.

[@jcagaspar]

Excelent test, LTO does have an advantage over LiFePo4 at low-temperature applications and number of cycles, but that's about it, LiFe is still a better and cheaper option otherwise. Both chemistries will be probably obsolete by the time it will take you to cycle 2500 times a LiFe battery bought today. Solid electrolytes are knocking at our door anytime now.

[@cekiert]

A true lifePO4 battery does seem safer, but idk if I can trust a battery to be truly lifePO4 made in china. China sells so many fake things, cheap mppt charge controllers that are really pwm. Fake fotec ssd relays. It's so easy to fake a battery as being lifePO4 at that point

[@daan3298]

Awesome test Brendon! Just as my real world experience with these cells, they perform to or above specification. My advice: do not listen to everything Will Prowse says. He's wrong about these LTO cells.

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks Daan, I think he agrees that he had bad cells or something went wrong and they actually do have decent efficiency.

[@daan3298]

@@brendontait6968 still he's very dismissive about LTO chemistry. Yeah they're not the cheapest or the lightest but for overland or heavy use cases or colder climates they're awesome!

[@brendontait6968]

@@daan3298 agree

[@WillProwse]

Did anyone watch my LTO part 2 video? I pulled full capacity.

[@WillProwse]

Why is everyone thinking that I disagree with Brendon? I like this video and I had the same results as Brendon. I also had grade b cells in the first video, and I mentioned that in the video as well.

[@GapRecordingsNamibia]

Another DIY pleb doing a real world test that would shame a lot of so called pro's. Well done definitely subed no questions asked. It's funny how the average run of the mill person does a more in depth and extensive test than most keyboard warriors on YT that just want to bad mouth and complain about a product. You took the time to research and thoroughly test a product for your application rather than going by a random test someone else did.

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers mate

[@ripsta2009]

Use a large like 20c or bigger load to really find out the health of individual cells. Keeping the c discharge at below c will not show much variation in voltage but you will see a different resistance number among the cells with a higher load revealing cells sagging and show you the health of each cell. The higher reistance cells will heat up much higher and will get worse with each cycle.

[@JonathanLyon]

Hey Brendan - awesome videos - so glad I've discovered you! Where in NZ are you? I'm looking to convert our 2004 English Caravan to Lithium and would love to pick your brains if possible please.

[@entune85]

Thanks so much for clearing thus up for everyone! ~from a happy Canadian

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks and you're welcome, stay happy

[@pauljconroysr4080]

no offense i would rather set thru an unedited vid that is a bit longer as it gives you more insight to your thinking and so i can learn what is going on with a bit more detail :) love your videos ,work you do ,and how you explain everything

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Paul, thanks for the input. I have issues talking to a camera, have always been uncomfortable in front of them and trying to make videos concise. As I get more comfortable and don't mince my words so frequently I'm bound to do less edited videos. Cheers

[@SystemsPlanet]

Would love to see you repeat this test with a temperature gun on the cells the entire time. No heat, no loss.

[@brendontait6968]

Good point, maybe will try fit that somewhere into a future video

[@InfinionExperiments]

If you use a temperature gun, please remove the heat shrink from the test location and ensure the aluminum is painted so it is opaque, and set the emissivity of the temperature gun to the value reported on the paint spec sheet

[@offgridjohn871]

Cheers

[@FATHERSOFBASS]

Lto is the best and safe ima use them for extreme car audio

[@brendontait6968]

100%

[@rondavison8475]

There still is a voltage droop in the battery. if your efficiency is close to 1 then this seemingly small loss can be 1/2 your losses. Add a V-meter to the battery. If you don't want to hassle recording the discharge and charge voltage profile, just measure the voltage at begging and end of both charge and discharge and assume strate line between. May want to take a few measurements at top off voltage and down 200mV to where the curve is a relatively straight line. Or do a 100-0% and a 90% to 10% cycle to see how much top off efficiency changes as a function of charge rate. Not using constant current at end will help efficiency also

[@KyleConnect]

I'm still laughing about the "$hitty little connectors but this thing works better than that thing" just after a wonderfully articulated explanation of coulombic efficiency 😂😂😂 - The deadpan delivery makes it even better. Absolutely loving your videos and you've saved me just before I started building our own battery pack ❤️

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Kyle, haha - thanks, just like to say it as I see it.

[@BenMitro]

That's pretty good Brendon. They are substantially dearer than LiFePo4 cells though...what drew you to these specifically?

[@joe0932]

Based on a previous video, it's due to the extra cycle life of this chemistry making it overall cheaper per cycle. E.g. if LTO was good for 10x more cycles but was only 5x the cost it would be twice the value in the long-term, as you would need to replace your LiFe pack once to achieve the same overall life that LTO gives. (Of course not quite that straight-forward, but hopefully you see what I mean.) He talks about this here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYrbYWxtmLuFapo

[@ahikernamedgq]

From what I can tell, the LTO are almost like the "led of batteries." ie they last longer than the item they're in. I would imagine, in Brendon's build, that the LTO cells will easily last as long as his van. So, maybe, that's the driver?

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Benny - long life, safety and ruggedness. I think the cost works out somewhere between 2-3 X more expensive than I could have built an LFP for.

[@BenMitro]

Thanks all for you help!

[@poerava]

Hey mate Brilliant vid. Do you sell these? I’m in Melbourne

[@nyikaattilaandras4111]

Hi Tait. Thanks for your videos. I'm a beginner in the battery field. Could these batteries be used as battery packs for custom Ev conversions?

[@brendontait6968]

Hey, no problem. Honda and Mitsubishi have used this chemistry in some of their domestic vehicles. They are heavy for their energy tho. If I were to do an EV build with these, I'd use prismatic cells as they have a higher volumetric energy density. Range will be limited, performance could be quite good, life span and safety would be as good as you could get.

[@nyikaattilaandras4111]

@@brendontait6968 Thank You. We wish You best with your plans from Scotland. :)

[@kepharolang1984]

Can they be use home setup as in store charge from solar panels?

[@przemekaftyka]

It makes sense... ;-p

[@bobham919]

sweet. keep hammering away

[@brendontait6968]

Thanks, will do!

[@YouTubeviolatesmy1stamendment]

Yeah I have two battleborn lithium iron phosphate and I show 99.49% charging them at about 35 amps and and discharging them at less than 10 amps

[@richardzan4077]

I have been doing tests on these batteries for 2 years. The problem that these batteries after charging up to 2.8V are quickly discharged automatically. In addition, each cells does not charge correctly. So at the moment of electronic calibration you will lose the total battery voltage. So, after a whole day of calibration, you need to recharge them again. I have batteries of the same company as you. I approach these batteries sold by individual Chinese shops are waste (bad somehow) from a large company - Yinlong. To buy good batteries, you need to apply directly to the manufacturer

[@jorma2015]

You was right of the too high efficiency ratio. Efficiency is to be calculated from Power consumption Wh, not Amp hoursAh. So it was 97.1Wh charging and 83,4 Wh discharging, so more like 85,9 was efficiency. Voltage makes the difference here, it is not same all the way on charging and discharging.

[@brendontait6968]

No it isn't - you cannot read the Wh indication on the meter - and I explained why in this video! Check my cold cell testing out - I do a round trip Wh efficiency test in that video.

[@gw10758]

Having just now gotten into these threads.... do I read it correctly that a slower charge on this cells will aide in increase of the efficiency of the cells themselves? I am wishing to build a long range powered bicycle and will be using a small solar charger to recharge. Thanks for some great videos!!!

[@lorenzo42p]

yea, I think that's generally the case with batteries. a slower charge rate will result in better efficiency. try to shove more power in faster and you get higher losses.

[@proscapedesigns]

This battery is specially made for high C discharge and used most often for audio purposes. People are able to draw up to 1k amps out of builds with minimal spacing for batteries...

[@brendontait6968]

Yeah, they have some phenomenal specs

[@CarsAndGadgetsAu]

Hey Brenton, just wondering where abouts in Australia (or overseas) where I can find these batteries?

[@brendontait6968]

I have a link in my previous video about them, also doing a group buy if you are buying a few and want them at a discounted rate.

[@Marley-ii6ls]

In order for current to flow into a battery there has to be a difference in applied voltage and the voltage of what is being charged. Therefore taking the charger off of the battery will instantly reduce the voltage at the terminals, this voltage at the terminals simply reflects what the level of charge the battery currently has.The battery never has the same voltage as the applied voltage until it is fully charged. Fundamentals of electricity.

[@brendontait6968]

Yes, but the amount of drop is highly dependent on the internal resistance of the battery. Due to the enormous surface area of the nanoparticle crystalline structure of the electrodes on titanate cells, the internal resistance is several orders of magnitude lower than some other chemistries.

[@daves1909]

You may find that E will improve even more if you make all of the wires as short and connector free as possible. There are losses there as well so consistancy and optimizing the set up really matters when you are looking for accuracy.

[@SystemsPlanet]

Thank you for correcting Will's misinfo. Did you ever add a BMS or balancer to your trucks battery pack?

[@brendontait6968]

Yes, hopefully will have info on that next video

[@___Chris___]

In applications where weight is a concern, the mediocre energy density of only about 80 Wh/kg has to be considered.

[@justicelee26]

You are right about the efficiency. There are other unfortunate problems with the chemistry though. I looked into LTO extensively and I really wanted to love it but it just doesn’t make sense for me.

[@brendontait6968]

What other unfortunate problems do they have?

[@justicelee26]

@@brendontait6968 Only relatively small cells are produced. So to make a 30 kWh pack would a huge number of cells and would take up a ton of space. Unlike LiFePo4 which comes in 280ah cells. Also they are extremely expensive and far more expensive to ship per wh. Also the working voltage doesn’t generally work well with standard 12v equipment. Basically it comes does to use case. For an off grid solar setup or any 12v solar setup it is extremely hard to justify LTO when LiFePo4 is often more compatible, weighs less, takes up less space, still lasts a very long time, uses less overall cells (can be easier to service/build packs), and comes in a larger variety of cell sizes. So even at a similar cost LTO really only has C rates and cycle life going for it, but with LTO at 4x the cost it’s a no brainer to go with LiFePo4 in my opinion.

[@wkrp10splayer19]

it also has low temp going for it. for an rv that is useful

[@herobrine00700]

@@justicelee26 i chose a LTO build for my rv because i live in ohio which 55% of the time, its cold as hell. down to 2 - 3 degrees Fahrenheit. and LTO cells are claimed to be able to be used in those temperatures, and even colder. Lifepo4 is so much easier in some ways because there is a huge selection of BMS for them.

[@digitalizations]

I just finished watching all your videos :-) You are an amazing resource to the planet... Leave some of your DNA frozen somewhere... One day when people cloning will be possible, we would need some of your DNA :-) Ciao

[@brendontait6968]

Haha... thanks, I think that is the most complimentary comment I've ever had! Cheers

[@campingsequoia4455]

I may have missed a video, but how is your battery system doing, regardless of all the "chatter" about battery types, equipment, efficiency, and stick measuring ; - ) How is your battery system doing, what can you do with a full days charge; etc. thanks - & great videos!

[@brendontait6968]

Hey, thanks. Yeah it has been working well. I haven't really been away in it. I have been using the mains powered fridge/freezer in it with inverter. It lasts 10-12 days on a charge. I'll make a video on the BMS etc soon.

[@traviscarter9182]

Can you build a bank of 10 batteries that you have tested, staggered 5 high 2 rows wide to be mounted vertically and I will buy them from you for that piece of mind knowing that you tested them. Amazing videos Sir! Thank you for your time. And how can our family send you a gift for you and your family? Cheers.

[@brendontait6968]

Hey Travis, unfortunately I'm very time poor so won't be able to help you with this. If you find a reputable seller, you shouldn't have any trouble with getting fake cells. flick me a msg on insta if you want more details or advice. Thanks!

[@eelko8154]

I had already set my mind on using LTO on my electric scooters. The efficiency talk on yt did crashed the party a little. But now the good music is playing again. The LTO's are on their way and I'm curious how they will perform in real life.

[@brendontait6968]

No complaints with mine

[@irishsnowboarder]

Brendan I dont have a clue about any of this stuff, one question I have, tell me how many I need to order for a real good off grid living setup? I'll just pay someone to rig it for me. Thanks in advance mate, loved your videos

[@brendontait6968]

Cheers, hate to be that guy.... but it all depends... how much power do you use? (my house uses 10kWh/day - my mates house uses 120kWh/day) how many cloudy days do you get in a row? How many sunshine hours do you get per month?

[@irishsnowboarder]

@@brendontait6968 I should have been more clear, it's for a campervan. I am based in Ireland, so I wouldn't count on the sun alot 😂😂 but I want to travel across Europe and wanted a real good battery and off grid setup

[@janithjayasinghe7084]

👍👍👍👍👍

[@chickencaronline6362]

Hi Brendon, in a previous video you said you had some spare LTO's. Would you have 6 available still please ? Stuart, Auck

[@brendontait6968]

Hey, yeah... flick me a message on insta

[@bjtaudio]

What needs to be discussed is the high costs of the batteries, especially in price gouging Australia, just one of the cells was about $52au with a crazy $180 delivery charge. It seems to me if you live in the USA it's all mega cheap, and its free delivery or local pickup easy, But if u live in Australia, you have to pay for freight, exchange rates, duties taxes its endless, ends up costing over double or triple. If you buy them of ebay its cheap but you will get a inferior or fake battery, or perhaps the case filled with sand.

[@brendontait6968]

I live in NZ and we have Jacinda. If you think delivery and taxes are bad in Oz, you ain't seen nothing.... bulk rates can become quite affordable (shipping per cell on a bulk shipment was around $5) You do have to do research to ensure you are dealing with a reputable company tho....

[@solarwiseph4573]

It doesnt heat up when charged

[@Pele19x89]

Brendon, what is total leakage current about full charged on piece of this battery?

[@brendontait6968]

If you mean self discharge? I haven't done any testing but believe it is about 3% per month.

[@J0hn1o1o]

Yeah thats a nice Test. But voltage during charging and discharging does matter. You can directly calculate the losses from the difference between "no load voltage"(after the battery was Just sitting still for a while) and charging or discharging voltage multiplied by the charging / discharging current

[@brendontait6968]

You're right, it does matter, but I believe the difference between coulombic and power efficiency will be low. I don't agree with measuring the no load voltage as the internal resistance of the battery changes at various state of charge, additionally there will be electrochemical processes that will alter the voltage. I may do another video measuring the actual efficiency rather than just the coulombic to appease people.

[@J0hn1o1o]

@@brendontait6968 looking forward to See that Video :)

[@pashabulker12]

Hey pretty interested in these batteries. Could you do a video on the BMS for these LTO batteries. Its the only thing stopping me from going down this path.

[@brendontait6968]

Am about to do one... but working pretty hard on the truck getting it ready to take away for Christmas. The BMS is not a big problem or deal, depending on your requirements.

[@pashabulker12]

@@brendontait6968 yeah cool!

[@jamesgarland3606]

i here you got a lot of them yinlong batterys was wondering what you do with them i am just making my first battery 12 volt 120 amp for my off grit living the microwave and water pump being the greatest power draw, im going to try two banks after transferring power to the second bank cant we just turn on the generator and charge up the first bank since its suppose to only takes a few minutes to fully charge it? this is why i bought them post to be the game changer yeah