Efficient Spey Casting: Part 2 - How a D-Loop Loads a Rod & Why Skagit & Scandi Are Different.

Buy a two handed rod and then look at the line recommendations for it, both official and unofficial, It's enough to make us weep. The recommendations seem to be all over the map with vast differences between a Skagit head and sinktip compared to an overhead line for the same rod.
There's actually an underlying logic to these disparities in how these lines load rods. Understanding how a D-Loop loads a rod is an essential part of improving our Spey casting and navigating the bafflegab of grain weights etc.

[@crestonlaager3216]

Now, I know how to cast - overhead, Scandi, Skagit - but I don't think I've ever seen it explained so concisely and broken down so well. Kudos Mr. Charles! Like most "casters" out there, we're fishermen first, and following the release of the product of the month/year we purchase one, take it, and sooner or later - either by adjusting our stroke or simply paying attention to the response we get, learn how to make it work. Your video is an elementary introduction to physics that should make us all take a pause and think about the lessons to be learned here.

[@peterlamar8546]

This may be the best explanation ever of the physics of the various two-handed cast versus overhead casting. Very informative and well done.

[@jeffreyhildebrand4867]

Peter, thank you for your forensic analysis of casting fly lines. Your explanation of the mechanics of casting and design of various lines and leaders has helped my casting tremendously. Your use of stop motion in these these videos is invaluable. I would like to see you do an in-depth analysis of the double haul used in overhead casting, especially the importance of timing. Seeing the cast through your stop motion techniques would easily show where to (and where not to) apply the haul in relation to power stroke of the casting hand. Again, thank you.

[@hooked4lifeca]

I have a video already on the double haul but it isn't very diagnostic. This is something I might look at doing again in the spring.

[@anhatur]

This explains why I, being interested in trout fishing in Norway, have never seen anyone in that setting do any scagit casting. With a varied terrain you can't know before hand if an overhand cast or a spey cast is best in the given situation. Spey casting is done to be able to cast in tight quarters and overhead if you have the space, so it all depends on where you are there and then. So you can't afford to have such a heavy line as to make overhead casting impractical, even when you may want to make a spey cast.

[@hooked4lifeca]

Exactly

[@oldsmugglerflyfishing]

Excellent video, I was waiting for a tutorial like this one. I'm dealing with a bad D-Loop that affects negative to my forward cast. Thanks.

[@LineSpeedJediTimRawlins]

cool presentation Peter! love that Skagit wrap cast, or whatever its called!

[@hooked4lifeca]

Ya, that wrappy-thingy is one of my favourites. ;) Luv my downstream Perry poke

[@stephencifka4629]

Peter, this is fantastic! All kinds of lightbulbs going off with your clear models and distinctions with what part of the line is actually loading (productive weight). Great stuff!

[@bcb777]

Much appreciated. Beginning to see why I mess up when switching from Rage to Skagit heads. Tend to overpower my Skagit casts in effort to match up D loops. Looking forward to the rest of the series.

[@thatcherbeaty9884]

Wonderful analysis and explanation of different lines and D-loops. Thank you! I look forward to the coming videos in this series.

[@mikekuczynski1552]

Very good having the model with the video to help better visualize the D loop and how the loading occurs. I’ve been casting short head Skagit for some time know and have recently started casting Scandi . Next week I’m loading my 13’ 6” 8wt with the Airflow Rage head which is supposed to be part Scandi part Skagit can’t wait to see how that plays out . Thanks for the video

[@christiancherry1377]

Great video as usual! I'll be sharing this with all my buddies who are converting to spey casting. Keep up the good work!

[@olivertwist4407]

Dear Peter, thank you for this video! I had to take a deep breath having just ordered a Rio Single Hand Spey line in #3 for my #4 Winston Pure. I was wondering why this line is (heavily by 2 AFFTA sizes) overweight. In all (promotional) videos Simon Gamesworth explains that the line can be used for overhead casting as well as single handed spey casting.... . I've watched half a dozen videos on the line, but none explained the basics of the weight chosen for the line. I've met many flyfishers during my past 30 years on the water but apparently none of them understood the physics of casting like you do (well, there's one exception, i.e. Henrik Mortensen but apparently I forgot the essential information from his 2 day workshop). Watching your video, I have understood the physics of the roll casts and now do understand that the weight in a line for spey casting is differently distributed than for a line used for overhead casting and won't fall victim to promotional videos that a single line is ideal for overhead casting AND roll casts.

[@hooked4lifeca]

We can overhead cast heavily weighted lines on most modern rods, but it requires a slower, more deliberate casting motion. Slowing down is the key to making them work. They're usually less fun to cast overhead vs. a line that is suited to the rod.

[@laxberndt]

Detta var den bästa förklaringen jag någonsin hört. Har träningskastat i över 20 år. Kan du förklara i någon video längre fram hur viktig längden på lina är i förhållande till spöt.

[@hooked4lifeca]

Thank you. I have the initial batch of 14 queued up, but I'm still looking for new material and that rod length relationship could be part of a future video.

[@hooked4lifeca]

This just inspired me for video 15 where we'll look at the relationship between rod length, line head length and the length of the casting stroke, as they all work together. I'll also get into how much line we can reasonably expect to lift given the head and rod length.

[@Sochmo18]

Thank you so much for this series, Peter, it really helps! Something that I’m having trouble understanding is how to choose the right grain weight heads for single hand rods. I have a 10’ 7wt TFO Pro II which id like to use to get started with two handed casting. From the research ive done it seems this rod would work best with 225-275g heads (im assuming this includes the tip) Does that mean that my 7wt 10’ single hand rod is similar in action to a 3 or 4wt micro spey rod which would use these grain weight heads?

[@hooked4lifeca]

I've found that a three line weight difference between single and double handed rods, is usually a good starting point.

[@aa-ron.]

Peter, I love how you have explained these differences, but can’t wrap my head around a part of the equation that seems to be missing. If we are only moving around 425 gr in these examples, where does the additional mass/ force come from that allows the skagit/Scandi to cast for much greater distances than the overhead casting distance?

[@hooked4lifeca]

Actually overhead casting achieves the greatest distance, all else being equal. I can definitely cast my NRX+ 11' 8 wt. farther overhead than when Spey casting it. I have overhead cast a 9' 6 wt. farther than I can Spey cast my 11' NRX+ switch rod. I've overhead cast my 9' 9 wt. a measured 110' more than once and there's no way I could make a Spey cast anywhere near that far with that rod. The world record two-hand overhead cast, at over 300' is considerably longer than the world record Spey cast. Overhead casting is simply more efficient as there's no dead weight or anchor to be towed by the line.

[@hooked4lifeca]

Here's a video of me casting my old 8' 6" 9 wt. fibreglass rod close to 90' overhead. With a better line I could've gone farther: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZPHnYaXq6d4pMU. Overhead casting is simply more efficient.

[@richardness4469]

Dear Peter, this is so informative! This newbie can’t thank you enough, I just purchased a inexpensive 13ft 7wt and I am looking for a skagit line ! Any idea on weight to begin with and maybe a good manufacturer? Thanks as alway Dick🎣

[@hooked4lifeca]

I'd look at a line in the 500 grain ballpark and being it's a 13' rod, I wouldn't go much shorter than 22'-23'. Both Airflo and Rio make excellent Skagit heads in this range.

[@Jaimelapoesie]

Does the negligible weight of a poly leader matter for Scandi? I have an Echo TR2 rated for 330 grains, using a Rage head in 330, and a 9’ floating Airflo poly leader + 5’ of tippet…

[@hooked4lifeca]

From floater to fast sink PolyLeader there isn't much impact on our casting, but the Extra Fast Sink and Super Extra Fast Sink are about triple the weight. Those two have a drastic effect on our casting. A 330 Rage head would struggle with those. You should barely notice the floater.

[@lesterma1608]

Peter, you have been fly fishing long enough before Spey got popular in the states, do you still favor Spey over conventional fly fishing and if so why?

[@hooked4lifeca]

I don't have a preference. I just use whatever cast is appropriate for the situation. As an example, with my NRX+ 11' 8 wt. I'll Spey cast it in a river for steelhead, but overhead cast it when fishing at the beach for striped bass.