Elden Ring Debate! Is Elden Ring A Masterpiece or Overrated Spam Fest? (Review, Discussion)

Elden Ring Debate! Is Elden Ring A Masterpiece or Overrated Spam Fest? (Review, Discussion). Today I am joined by talented Shoot Em' Up Dev Boghog (Mechanical Star Astra + Gunvien) and charismatic Shmup commentator, Aktane, to discuss the open-world phenomenon that is taking over the gaming world, Elden Ring, to debate it's merits and try and work through the hype and unrelenting critical praise to decide if Elden Ring lives up to its reputation or if it is flawed and overrated. Topics we cover are the open world design, the level design, the combat, the boss fights, the visuals, the graphics and music, the critical reception, the difficulty, it's placement in the Dark Souls series, how the game relates to other action RPG, the sales, Castlevania, Joseph Anderson "Shattered Masterpiece," input buffer, pc performance, and so much more! If you are looking for a really passionate and fun discussion about the game you can't go wrong!
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[@FFTHundoCommunity]

Elden Ring suffers from the same problem as all open world rpgs. On a blind playthrough, you spend your time doing as much content as possible because you don’t know which quests or dungeons will provide you with rewards that are beneficial for your build. As a result, you waste a ton of time completing content that does not offer substantial rewards. With a strength melee build, I grew frustrated every time I was rewarded with a magic spell for completing a dungeon. If I know in advance which rewards a dungeon offers, I can make a decision if that dungeon is worth my time. That introduces another problem. If you already know which dungeons to hit on a playthrough, you’re essentially turning the game into a linear experience. You make a beeline for the content that is beneficial for your build, and you ignore the rest, which defeats the purpose of the open world. When that’s the case, how is Elden Ring any different from the prior Souls games? The exploration is meaningless because there are no dynamic elements in the world to throw a wrench in the player’s plan. Every event is scripted. Every dungeon and reward is static. When everything is predictable, the experience becomes homogenous, and everyone experiences the game in the same way. The exploration has no meaning if my dex-int run is remarkably similar to everyone else’s. Basically, no open world game has ever been done right, and current trends point to a frothing demand for open world games, which are taking longer to develop than linear experiences. The fact that people point to the major dungeons in Elden Ring as the highlights demonstrates two things: that only around 30% of the game has the best content, and that the best content is the stuff that made the prior games good, and is not something unique to Elden Ring. To me, I couldn’t possible consider that worthy of praising Elden Ring as the best in the series, let alone one of the best open world games of all time.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I don't know if you ve finished the ep yet, but we actually spend a ton of time debating this point. It s a super interesting flaw of open world games that I can t see a solution to honestly.

[@boghogSTG]

I think you take a similar stance to Mark where you view open worlds as a content format to deliver content/rewards rather than a particular style of gameplay. That's why I think BOTW is a lot better than ER as an open world game - instead of treating its open world as a means to an end (content, gear, etc) it makes navigation a more thoughtful process. Getting to the towers & finding the dungeons is actually a whole lot more enjoyable than doing them, and the rewards become pretty worthless quickly. I believe this is what Death Stranding tried to do as well. STALKER similarly makes the open world so dynamic and unpredictable that you can spend a lot of time wandering around and run into fun gameplay situations all the time to the point where people, myself included, just mod it to boost the spawn rates and ignore the main dungeons, instead either exploring or even doing crappy procgen quests not because the quests themselves are good, but because they're set in a world that throws cool situations at you all the time. Rain World is another game that goes in that direction and does it well-ish. I disagree that subsequent runs are linear though, that's not true because you can/will take a lot of different routes as you figure out better ways to grab the items you need & boss/level order (which will vary based on build/goals) and discover various connections in the world/tricks you can take advantage of for quicker navigation. Though - did it need to be so massive to achieve this? Not really...

[@lounowell4171]

The very first Legend of Zelda on NES did it right but ok guys open worlds are just a natural evolution of hub worlds and diegetic menus (i.e. you choose your gameplay via gameplay) if you want linearity so bad watch a movie imo

[@Albertredneck]

Exploration always feels rewarding to me. The cool thing about souls games is that all the weapons are viable, and also, maybe you don't use the thing you found just now, but I'm always fantasizing about other builds to use all those cool items.

[@BMBlasterMan]

I agree with most of your points - there's a big push for open world games without any games really benefitting from that structure - but I think reducing the game into "linear sequence" and "areas to skip" is super backwards. You're not going through a dungeon for a spell, you're going through a dungeon because you like the game and the dungeon is another thing to do in the game. You can optimize the fun out of anything, but why would you? When I start up a Mega Man game, I don't instantly look up what the best order is for the levels. That's depriving myself of the fun of trying things out. I have mixed feelings about the Soulsbornekiroring series, but the best parts of any of them were aimless wandering that led to a shocking discovery, whether it was a character, enemy, item, weapon, level or whatever. It was almost never critical for my build to go to those places, but it was fun discovering something off the beaten path. At best I would get a new niche weapon that I would try for a few minutes, just enjoying the novelty of it. Not optimal whatsoever, but greatly appreciated. Now, that's not a defense of big empty plains with copy-pasted enemies or whatever. If you're going through an optional area and it simply isn't any fun to play, then sure, it shouldn't be in the game. But the same applies to the mandatory areas.

[@gpm8365]

ER parry takes huge chunk of stamina, all the more or less bosses have unparriable attacks, all major bosses require 2+ parries for crit, crit damage is absolutely not as massive as previous games, but missing your parry is extremely painful - did boghog even try to perform it?

[@boghogSTG]

Checked & yeah I fucked up, hastily assumed parry worked like in Souls after only testing it on Crucible Knight & checking some Godskin Duo SL1 stuff. What can I say, one of my many retard moments ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@huevonesunltd]

I feel like gamers nowadays paradoxically have a lot of patience but at the same time too little. I have been noticing this by watching streamers and achievement stats. Most people have the patience for tedious grinding or doing tedious tasks for more than 100 hours to reduce difficulty but at the same have too little patience for practicing a section or boss for 30 minutes, they would rather try to brute force it for 5 hours or more. I just don't get it, i think it's the same reason why people call some RPG games "grindy" and leave a negative review saying "this game is too grindy, grinding is required to beat it, Bad design" even if that's not true at all, often times grinding is not required you just have to play well, but because they cannot bother to learn the mechanics their only resource is to level up as they are convinced it's impossible to progress without it, this happens a lot more with action games with RPG elements, most people have a tendency to treat these games like an RPG and solve everything by leveling up, that alone might be the reason why there are opinions that are so polarizing because of the complete opposite playstyles. To me letting a player grind to extreme levels can lead to trivializing the entire game to the point it loses the intention, game experience, immersion and impact the developers originally intended, just like the rewind feature in megaman collection.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That s a really good point!!! Yes players will spend hours and hours on filler, but any practice time is unnacaptable ha

[@powerinmisery]

Like you I've noticed this a lot with streamers and youtubers. That's why i was always of the opinion that these games are only really hard for people who refuse to learn and get out of their comfort zone. They'll try to win by spamming dodges and attacks and brute forcing their way through because you can play most action games nowadays that way. And i know it's that because i was like that too. My first 20 hours or so of dark souls 1 were the most I've struggled with a souls game even though it's laughably easy compared to the stuff in the newer games. It's because i was too dumb or too stubborn to actually pay attention and play it like you're supposed to

[@desfefe]

@@powerinmisery LOL that is so true. Ironically a lot of people who hated ER but are DS veterans missed the point. Your instincts clearly gear you towards your well known builds, but the game is meant to be taken as is with loads of experimentation. What happens here then is the process of sucking, getting good and learning the mechanics and eventually overcoming the challenge. There is a whole lot more to learn in ER, and you cant use the same instincts developed from earlier games as your exploration can only get you so far if you determine you will lock yourself to just the one build from the start of the game. I think you can pretty much have the most random build and still make it through to Rennala. At which point if you can correct your build to help you optimise till the end, or whenever you find something more viable. So I dont get the complaint from some that say "Ah man I was going for this strength build and kept finding spells". Like hell man, just experiment with what there is in the world and what you found. Although, the problem with this game design is that once you played through it, there isnt much reason/interest to go through it again unless you want to build test. Luckily I do!

[@pievancl5457]

Agree with this 100%

[@stolensentience]

Nioh2 handles this issue so perfectly.

[@thecarpaltunneler]

The open world transport does not seem well thought out in the game. The reason I think open world works so well in GTA is that you have the whole car driving mini-game, where you can get faster at getting to places by weaving in between cars or going into on coming traffic with faster and faster cars, and in later games upgrade your car and customize its appearance if you really like it, all while listening to the radio stations. Also motorbikes are very fast but have the risk of being very easy to be knocked off of and trucks the opposite. Or you can take a helicopter, plane, or train to cover large distances depending on which GTA you're playing. Elden ring could have at least different horses from a racing horse to a Clydesdale, and made it so had to actively evade attacks more often when on it. I disliked how they start having bosses reappear with additional enemies although you could easily miss there first encounter. Dark Souls 2 did this better where on new game+ they would add enemies to boss encounters. The more challenging encounters of a boss should be naturally found after the boss has already been encountered. Agree that other souls game have a much smoother bossing experience. The thing I don't like about parrying in souls games is that is not always easy to tell which attacks are and aren't able to be parried or if you are just not timing it correctly. Elden ring also carries over the terrible gear defence system from ds3, it seems like they didn't like the heavy defence builds from ds1 and just given up and turned it into fashion souls where there is no strategy with what your character is wearing.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh excellent points!! Yeah the only stat I pay attention to pretty much with gear is the weight, where I try to keep my weight as low as possible. Yep, getting around in GTA is really fun because of the driving aspect of the game and the whole evading the cops, ironically this aspect of the game is much better than the actual missions in most cases ha. I like having more depth with the horses idea. I still think if they perhaps made the open world more combat centric with higher enemy counts and paths that block you off it would work better

[@Steve-Fiction]

I'll listen to the whole podcast these days (have a train ride coming) and honestly this is one of the only channels I want to hear about Open World games from. The hype around that genre is incomprehensible to me.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I'm happy to hear that my dude!!!! I really like to imagine people listening to the podcast while they are out and about :-) Yeah the unflinching belief that open world design is just the best fit all the time is pretty silly. Game journalists would try to shake their perspective up at least a little ha. People have been on the open world train for 2 decades now, it's crazy.

[@angquangnguyenthac2833]

That's because the 2007-2010 open world games (STALKER, Far Cry 2, M&B warband,.... Hell even Morrowind , Oblivion and Fallout 3 since it's done with the same principles) show us what open world games and games in general COULD BE: an actual world of interconnected and emergent story and gameplay, with a true ecosystem and people struggling in that system. The rise of online survival game and survival based battle royale just adds to that prospect of the future. But again, gamers pretty much couldn't play that type of game, and instead opted to easy playground games instead.

[@stolensentience]

@@TheElectricUndergroundI was singing this song as early as when gta3 blew tf up (I liked the game fine but it didn’t even feel as fun as gta1 and 2 at the time, and definitely didn’t replace my desire to play snes classics like pitfall, contra3, super Star Wars, mega man, etc.). It has risen to such proportions as to start devouring itself and the gaming industry with its inflated, misdirected costs. (And homogenized game design, an even bigger issue)

[@FangsofYima]

its nice hearing another Stalker fan perspective in the wild. I think more people need to play it, its a unique experience thats important for discussion on open world/ semi open world games.

[@parceromaniaco9667]

I just wanna say for the sake of the Dark Souls 1 experience for Mark. Dude, not sure how much you are into multiplayer but Gravelording changes everything about this game. Especially if you want to make builds at different levels in order to cover the most areas of heavy traffic in the game. Most people play dark souls like any other RPG and grind and level up over and over and in turn the game dumbs down. The beauty of Dark Souls IMHO is the challenge you want to impose to yourself, the action is there, so is the challenge, if you throw in the multiplayer aspect of it and the specific build types, the game turns into a puzzle in itself, what bosses not to kill, skip, milk for weapons and let them live, stuff like that. The combat is amazing, specially in multiplayer. However I have to agree with the nuisances that you're presented with like upgrading armor and weapons, that only becomes a tedious problem if you want to work on everything and have a varied build, but if you are working on a focus build it's actually very minimal 'cause there's very little farming to do. I know this is a huge wall of text and I'm sorry, I wish I could word things just right to explain it better. I have a 3 tier weapon level master save of all classes at base level, this way I can up levels according to whatever are I want to play in and what setup I want to use, it changes the game tremendously. Thyen revert to my master save, rinse and repeat, this way you can cover more ground in all different aspects of the game. The action is unreal, and this comes from a Ninja Gaiden Black avid player, its my favorite 3D game, Dark Souls 1 sits right next to it now, it's that good. Dark Souls 2 combat is probably the best in the series, so are the boss fights and movesets. It's just not as good as Dark Souls 1 as a whole, but that doesn't make the game bad per say, just not as incredible but incredible nonetheless. There's more action in DS2, you can pool more enemies like in Ninja Gaiden 2, it can get pretty insane. Ok I rambled enough, I hope you try DS1 someday, I think if you put the work in, it will be worth it, just watch PVP videos and see how amazing it can be.

[@Albertredneck]

Congrats, I loved the video and the format. Hope you do it again!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I m glad you enjoyed the ep!! It was a lot of fun to record :-)

[@muddykocyak9113]

Sekiro has a boss rush mode, though you have to complete the game at least twice to unlock all the challenges. I'm sure you could find a save somewhere with everything unlocked

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Sounds like a good plan!!!

[@deltatango-six7941]

Aktane's analogy to Castlevania hits the nail on the head. The classicvania recipe was master gameplay to beat the game. Basically "Git gud, skrub". You weren't going to beat Castlevania 3 or Rondo if you didn't master the gameplay. The Igavania's like SotN introduced the RPG elements which made the games a lot easier and more approachable for the casuals. You could essentially grind levels and gear to compensate for shitty gaming skills and still beat the game. As a Castlevania fan, I love both types but your preference depends on your style of gaming. The hardcores are going to go classicvania, while the casuals gravitate towards Igavanias.

[@roleplayingpain4349]

half of the reason I returned to 'simple games' like shmups, pinball, platformers, 8/16 bit esque games of my childhood is because I truly hate what gaming has become. Companies do not make games anymore, they make virtual lives. I do not want pixels to take the place of my entire life. I do not want coded quests to become the use of all my time left on Earth. I don't want to be innundated with 1000s of games every month targeted at me and feel 'FOMO' (fear of missing out) if I dont buy it and spend time on it. Games of my childhood were games - not second lives. They demanded usually no more than a few minutes, any more than that was because of your own desire to keep trying. I refuse to even attempt to start to get into something like Elden Rings. I don't want a % of my life to be Elden Rings. Games like Elden Rings are the exact thing I hate

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah it is crazy how huge the scope of mainstream games has become. Imagine if a studio dropped a 2 hour game today ha, they d be torn apart by the critics ha. I think game bloat needs to be trimmed down severely, makes it hard to get into newer games

[@roleplayingpain4349]

@@TheElectricUnderground I think a large amount of gamers can literally break their entire adult lives into a few major titles. It's hard to believe more people aren't shocked by this

[@twincherries6698]

I really need to play ninja gaiden on 360, love the nes games Edit: also WOW you spoke right to my heart about sekiros level design. It really irked me as well

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes you gotta play ninja gaiden 2! Essential gaming :-)

[@mishikomishiko9088]

I completed ER and spent around 140 hours. Personally, would prefer it at least 3 times shorter. Yes, the game was good but at the same time had some obvious flaws. Too many reused assets, not enough variety in enemies and locations, etc. I'm sure that I've seen around 65% of the content in the previous Fromsoftware titles. And the open world of course. I think the game would have been better without it.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yep this is what I am hearing reported a lot! The game starts strong but by the end gets bloated and spammy. This dumb curse of games needing to be hundreds of hours long comes with some real costs.

[@ungabungus01]

It was about 3 times shorter for me lol around 60 hrs and I felt like I was going slow

[@rahndail3863]

Great discussion. Big props for the Castlevania DS soundtracks, a true patrician ;) For the record, I loved Elden Ring, but get some of the criticisms. I agree that it's probably the best """""open world"""" game, even though the actual exploration on the map leaves something to be desired. My favorite thing was exploring OP strats, which I think is a counter to Bog's complaint about bosses being unfair. It deemphasizes skill in the traditional sense, but there's fun in a sandbox sense in getting even with shithead, broken bosses.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes the Castlevania ds osts are great!!! Bog recommended them! I thought the Elden ring ost was too boring for background tunes ha. Yeah I bet using the op strats is much less frustrating ha

[@franciscor390]

I always get super hyped the few times Mark has used Castlevania ost in the background.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

2:13:20 Nailed it this time though. A lot of people don't get this. Technically doable doesn't mean it'll be fun.

[@ShmupJunkie]

Hahaha funny title. Considering I’m playing through it right now and near end game at about level 120 it’ll be interesting to hear your thoughts. I only have like an hour or two any given evening for casual play like this, so it takes me a while to get through it. But I’ll say the types of games I enjoy is very broad and I’m having a good time with it. Is it hard as claimed? No not really. But I’m a Bloodborne veteran so it was kind of easy to jump into.

[@AKTANEARCADE]

Im nowhere near you, hahaha I need a solid gaming session of 2 hours to play it... and I never have 2 hours to play games, or I end up doing a kumite instead :( too deep in shmups and cant bust free for Elden Ring! sitting down for an hour was getting me frustrated as not a lot happens in an hour depending on where you are

[@ShmupJunkie]

@@AKTANEARCADE Totally get it. I was the same my first year making videos. I got to the point where it’s all I played and I was missing out on too many other good games I wanted to play. So I started setting aside evenings for casual non channel related gaming. Like 8-10pm is personal game time hanging with the wife and dogs. And I’m glad I did versus working straight through and into the night. After 10 I get back to work and feel a bit refreshed having gotten away for a bit.

[@AKTANEARCADE]

@@ShmupJunkie yeah I do the same but I end up playing games my wife enjoys as well 😂 we have played quite a few but she's not into the souls games as much because I'm OCD 🤪

[@ShmupJunkie]

@@AKTANEARCADE The wife put 300hrs into BOTW man did she love that game lol. She would just hand the controller to me whenever a boss or Lynel came around 🤣.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha game journalists exaggerating game difficulty Junkie ... I just don't believe it's possible they would do that XD

[@RewdanSprites]

This was even more entertaining than I expected. I would normally write an opinion but I don't want to write an essay today 😅.

[@RewdanSprites]

One thing I should probably say is with the jumps where you don't know if you can make it or not you can throw a prism stone on the floor and if it breaks you can't make it. If it lands you're good.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I'm happy to hear that! It was a really fun episode and we had some great back and forth discussion.

[@RewdanSprites]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah it was really interesting. I would have loved to have been there. Great episode well done!

[@DjDizzy216]

I’ve been waiting for this video since the poll 👍 I switch between a story-driven game and shmups. I’ve played only Elden Ring and shmups since ER came out. I’m at 200+ hours. I might just play only ER as my story-driven game from here on out j/k

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I m happy you were looking forward to the vid! I m really happy with how this discussion turned out, it was also a ton of fun

[@arisumego]

1:54:18 there aren't that many movesets though. there are hundreds of weapons and almost no unique movesets outside of powerstancing and the slightly different moveset for wing of astel

[@quesonukefps]

Unrelated to this video but thanks for doing what you do!!!! I recently bought Ikaruga on steam since selling my GameCube copy a few years back (massive regret) and it led me to your channel in a roundabout way. I bought Zer0ranger shortly after and the shmup has now taken control of my life. Your information and suggestions on the channel have been absolutely incredible for me as a newly indoctrinated shmup addict. Buying a hori rap4 next payday, can’t wait to start working on my first 1cc!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That s awesome news!!!! I m really happy to hear the channel has helped hook you into the genre :-) thanks for tuning in ❤️

[@quesonukefps]

@@TheElectricUnderground absolutely man! All these games are bringing me back to my roots in gaming and it’s just an incredible thing all around.

[@AKTANEARCADE]

@@quesonukefps zero ranger was my gateway drug too, did you complete it WITH continues yet? That was hard enough for me starting out! The 1CC is something I'm still working on, actually very actively!

[@quesonukefps]

@@AKTANEARCADE i'm almost to that point but still not quite. I definitely have a long way to go, i've only had a very casual relationship with shmups until recently so it's been a journey. good luck on that 1cc man! hopefully we'll both get there in due time

[@AKTANEARCADE]

@@quesonukefps I'm not too worried I'm just enjoying the ride and doing fun swag strats ! I love how the games rank works and how you can stack your lives up quickly

[@dingo535]

Good discussion, I’ve only played Sekiro (only could get about halfway through) but overall thought it was a pretty sick. Curious if you have any thoughts on Dead Cells. A game that similarly advertised it’s difficulty, I’ve been pretty hooked lately

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh interesting I haven't played it!!

[@arisumego]

@@TheElectricUndergroundSekiro is pretty excellent, it's like Tenchu in some ways but vastly different in others. As someone that was sorely disappointed by Elden ring Sekiro is one of From's best titles for me still

[@kagemara277]

Amazing comments guys. I really wanna join your discussion! Some of the most valuable comments about games that are so well/fairly subjectively - objective… amazing video!!!!! Let me in on you guys with some vids. I just love how you focus on gameplay.

[@Albertredneck]

Guys, I think we totally agree on something: Skyrim just sucks.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That was not pre-planned ha. We all just dislike skyrim XD

[@AKTANEARCADE]

@@TheElectricUnderground hahahaha 🙃

[@Albertredneck]

I'd have NEVER guessed you enjoy both the horse and the stealth lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha I know right. Yes I love stealth games (a wierd quirk or mine) and have always wanted more games with horse combat. I think these two elements of the game really stood out to me and sold me on Elden ring. Sekiro has stealth as well, but it s level design is hell ha

[@nimbylive]

If you want a hard mode in SOFTN beat the game and then enter your name as Richter. Richter mode is pretty tough as there is no leveling or weapons, just you against the bosses with a whip.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Nice!!

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

ER has the worst combat of all FS games... lol. Maybe not the oldest ones, I didn't play those (DeSo and before).

[@Mingodough]

Great video, it seems the only problem with this game is that it’s open world and some other smaller stuff lol. As everyone says but also forgets when they’re brainwashed by marketing and “secret” marketing by KZbinrs “no game is perfect”. Random question, any monitor suggestions? I’ve seen a couple but then they have one fatal flaw of not being able to rotate Tate. Thanks

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah low-key youtuber marketing if a force to be reckoned with! I have an asus gsync monitor that I really like a lot. Here's a link: www.amazon.com/VG248QG-G-Sync-Compatible-Gaming-Monitor/dp/B07TNM8L6S?th=1

[@stolensentience]

Love the longform!

[@kagemara277]

Is placing Dark Souls 1(with DLC) above DS3 or Elden ring wrong? Nostalgia might be part of it, but the atmosphere and level design are just superb! ( don’t wanna repeat LORE) which actually is quite enchanting!

[@Ghorda9]

yes, the base game doesn't match up to either in any way and DS1s dlc isn't strictly better than the other dlcs.

[@heavysystemsinc.]

There's a game for NES/Famicom called Downtown Jedaigekidayo or something (don't ask me to spell it, but it's like River City Ransom and takes place in medieval Japan) that's 'open world' and the bosses indeed move around in that game. The GOOD thing is the map will tell you where they are and when they move and some have sort of 'their normal haunts'. That said, it is a LITTLE annoying chasing them down sometimes as you'll enter the area where they are, and dammit, they JUST toodle doo'd over to a spot on the map that isn't easy to get to. The GOOD thing is that for the most part, chasing the boss down is fun because there's always some goons to beat the crap out of and the gameplay is fun and wacky enough so that you aren't always angry about missing the boss when you get to the area. Anyway, just wanted to point out the one example I have in memory of this being a thing that Boghog mentioned would be interesting. Obviously it's not 3D 'open world', but...

[@nilkilnilkil]

I have elden ring ... I do like these games but stuck on margit now ... I always need build guides and progress route guides ...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I need a walkthrough as well

[@HeLL1Striker]

I’ve been watching some of your videos for about a week, and you’re really one of the most in-depth reviewers of games. I’m really enjoying your takes, especially on fighting games. I’ll probably write a long comment on one of your fighting game videos. You really bring up very good points that no one else talks about, and you nail it. That’s how I spot a passionate gamer: they’re picky and pedantic about obscure details in games that are, in fact, game-changers. So I wanna thank you for making these quality content video essays. Now, about Elden Ring. Elden Ring has been successful, but I’d never call it a masterpiece. To me, personally, it was a downgrade to the Souls formula of level design that has been working just fine for all these years. Also, if not for the basic Souls formula, there wouldn’t have been Elden Ring at all. I’ve played all the Souls games to the point where I can do no-damage boss fights comfortably and speedruns just for fun. I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time grinding Souls games since Demon’s Souls, and I’d like to share some thoughts. Elden Ring has simply fallen into the trap of open-world appeal to the masses, the cursed Ubisoft formula (big map, fog of war you unlock by activating towers, etc. - I’m sure you recognize this trope as it’s become a meme in gaming). I don’t know if we can all agree on this, but I’ll say it: Elden Ring is just an open-world Souls game. It has separate lore, for sure, but it has the same old Dark Souls gameplay and tone with some tweaks here and there. There’s this ingenious craftiness in level design that we find in older games, such as old Resident Evil/Silent Hill games, older Dark Souls, etc. They are small in size with limited maps, but that’s the whole point to get this craftiness I’m talking about. Remember that first locked door you encounter when you start a game? That ladder you can’t reach? That cliff that looks like it leads somewhere but you’re not sure if you want to jump? Traps and world interaction, even through a mere text or simple NPC dialogue, easily missable items/events that play a crucial role in game progression-these small details, when put together, give you the complete picture. This interconnection between several stages is what made Dark Souls so good in terms of brilliant level design. Now, open world kills this aspect and makes you want more. More places, more sceneries, more enemies-you always want more exposure to new stuff to uncover, and sadly, the game can only offer so much because of limited resources. So, even if the game is huge, you get a big presentation every time you visit a new area, but then you begin to notice the laziness and shortcomings of those landscapes, especially when they’re bloated with the same enemy types and copy-pasted patterns of dungeons, progression, and boss fights. Honestly, to me at least, the whole appeal of Souls games revolves around gameplay. Despite being clunky at times and deliberately made to feel constantly oppressed by enemies and bosses, Souls games or Elden Ring have solid and well-thought gameplay with consistent frame data, and it’s one of those games you can master with enough time and practice. I also believe that the adventure aspect or huge landscapes, be it open world or not, have very little to no impact on me enjoying the game. Other aspects I like are the boss fights and encounters with ruthless enemies. Your ability to find solutions to overcome said obstacles, whether by outplaying them through sheer skill, finding workarounds, or simply grinding for more levels and better gear to brute-force your way with stronger stats. All of these features can be achieved in a much smaller game where you don’t even need a map, just like the old Souls games. Like I said in the beginning, FromSoft wanted to hop on the bandwagon of open-world games and appeal to more people. They’ve been studying the market after all and want to sell. They’re slowly shifting from the kind of arcade-like mindset that’s gameplay hyper-focused to a somewhat realistic game design, with slower movement, clunkier recovery animations, bigger world that offers multiple choices to find solutions which translates to less skill required, thus less difficulty. I see where they’re coming from, but to be honest, I’m not a fan. Because for all this time, I’ve always regarded Japanese developers as those who prioritize gameplay over everything else. If you’ve been playing their games for a long time and compare them to Western developers, you can notice the difference in philosophy when making games. But now I can see them walking similar paths. Don’t get me wrong though, I still believe Elden Ring’s gameplay is good; they didn’t change the core radically, but I think that’s coming and is inevitable. Again, to me, Elden Ring isn’t a masterpiece. It’s a decent Souls game that shone in a time when all other games were bad; it was the only decent choice. It was actually guilty of similar things made by many mainstream games but used a slightly different approach. That slight difference isn’t novel, mind you-it’s always been there. It was none other than the Dark Souls gameplay formula.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

I don't think being able to run past enemies is an issue. I think it's one of the best parts: some challenges are naturally optional. If you wanna play slow and steady, you can. If you wanna play fast and reckless, you can and you won't get bogged down by "killing trash mobs".

[@notnoaintno5134]

no man's sky has the survival / exploration mix that you were talking about. you have to maintain oxygen temperature and radiation levels on every planet, some are extreme and will kill you in seconds if you aren't prepared. that game has very little to no action however and i think you would hate it

[@DonnyKirkMusic]

Ok, so, this is my perspective. I haven't played Elden Ring. I'll get to that in a bit. I've played all the other Souls games, played King's Field series and the Shadow Towers, fuck I've played most of the Armored Core games now. I am fromsoftware'd out. That is the reason why I haven't played Elden Ring, and if I do I won't like it as much as, say, a newcomer to the series. I just am burned-out on their style of game design.

[@sebbev9678]

What are some of your favorite open world games?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Harvest moon 64, ocerina of time, super Metroid (2d open world), mgs5

[@tequila_tibbs7938]

Urgh, I hate mgsv. Yes, I played 500 hours of it but I was always chasing the mgs3 dragon

[@jepettoNFT]

When i saw the trailers a few months back, i felt really uninterested, i was like "a new SoulsBorne game, technically it looks it's still stuck 10 years in the past, i've been playing the series since Demon's Souls and i'm fed up with this formula, so i'll try this 1 and it will be the last time i buy a FromSoftware game (i didn't buy/play Sekiro because...Activision, and BloodBorne is my favorite); I was very very skeptical, then i received the game and spent 1 entire month playing it all day every days; i spent more than 300 Hours with just 1 character i made (i made 3), and frankly, i didn't expect to be amazed to such an extent. Plus they delivered on quality AND quantity, that's such a power move. I thought FromSoftware was declining (because DS3 wasn't that great, very "meh"", even tho much better than 2) but i was wrong, and i'm happy about it. They rekindled the flame and can't wait for DLCs now (the only time i felt that was with Bloodborne).

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I was happy with the shift and style as well, it really did feel like playing a Zelda but with real combat mechanics ha, it was a fun experience. I ll probably pick it up and go for a clear when it s on sale on Xbox, since I can't play the PC version at decent performance

[@jepettoNFT]

@@TheElectricUnderground It seems the PC version isn't that great indeed (from what you explained in the video and several other things i heard), i played it on PS5 and i didn't encounter any major problem so i assume the Xbox version must be of the same caliber. I hope you'll have the opportunity to experience it the best way possible. BTW, i received the Japanese PS4 versions of EspRade Psi and Ketsui 2 weeks ago, after looking at every videos you made about them, and they are such a blast to play; At first i was more into Ketsui, as it's easier to grasp in terms of gameplay, but that's crazy how much content EspRaDe has to offer and once you get how the scoring system works, it's a real blast. Thank you very much for your videos because i love shmups, but being in Europe, it's not easy to follow the releases as not many persons talk about them, and i discovered your channel like 4 weeks ago and, discovered so many great titles through your videos. Now I just hope the Japanese titles will get physical releases in US/EU so that we can have an English translation 🤞

[@nilkilnilkil]

Aktane lowering the tone with his f bombs ... 💣 hahahha

[@AKTANEARCADE]

😤😂⛵

[@kagemara277]

Hi Mark, I wonder if you would like Monster Hunter Generations Ultimate or MH Rise- later fights are actually great and it’s more about skill than Elden Ring and it’s tricky approach to difficulty.

[@J.J._777_]

1:11:43 "Has any open world game solved this problem of why fight in the first place?" Yes, kinda. Survival/crafting games have solved the issue of "why engage?" For example, "Don't Starve" is an open world game, and if you avoid engaging with the world you will die. You need materials to make fire, or you will die from the night monster. You need materials for combat, or you will die from hounds that spawn on a specific day and chase you across the entire map. You need materials for warm clothing, or you will die when winter comes. Existential threats are scheduled in a cyclical way that mandates engaging with the world in specific ways. Some people mod open world games like Skyrim to add survival mechanics to add a sense of urgency to engaging with the world.

[@Zetact_]

Personally I think the solution can be as simple as "make the combat fun enough that people willingly engage with it." In a game with really good action, people will play it just to enjoy the action. That said, it's kind of opposed to an open world game. Even if the action is good that it still acts as a stopgap to prevent you from exploring but it could be solved. Suppose that for clearing a fight in the overworld you get a resource that can make your travel movement faster, so that if you enjoy the combat you aren't feeling like it's hindering your ability to traverse but that it's complimenting it. Like in Breath of the Wild, imagine if you had the DLC motorcycle from the start but it would only recharge from beating monsters. Or if in Ghost of Tsushima if you couldn't call the wind infinite times and you needed to engage in combat to recharge your ability to do so. Now, I don't think either of the games have particularly amazing combat (I think BotW's is downright dreadful) but this is just an example of how you could have tools for more convenient exploration incentivize combat. In most open world action games, engaging in combat compliments the RPG side of the game, not the exploration. The main focus of the game is exploration, so combat is kinda considered a distraction, and the RPG mechanics are a distraction from both the combat and the exploration - by going into combat your "reward" is usually something that drifts you farther away from the exploration, not back into it. It splinters the game even more than it needs to be. And it also doesn't really help that in a lot of newer games (especially big budget ones that can afford to be open world) combat isn't that fun in and of itself.

[@Ghorda9]

@@Zetact_ they just needed to make the open world more challenging to traverse, increase the agro range of lobsters, more choke points, more "brick wall" enemies, more cat walks with enemies etc

[@nobodytonobodysbusiness]

Took me a bit to realize you didn't get a Kim Jong HC and were wearing glasses on your head. Absolutely LOVED DS3 but couldn't get into any others, including Bloodborne Identity. Good discussion.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha yeah the green screen ate up my glasses 😂

[@kirkcavenaugh758]

Good vid

[@70smebbin]

if that guy messes with me ima set his beard on fire

[@jakeinfactsaid8637]

I come back and listen to this every few months for validation.

[@99konondrums]

I've played all the From games since Demons' Souls (DS1 is far an away my favorite)

[@99konondrums]

Elden Ring was strange for me, as I am definitely a straight melee player, so I didn't want to use all the new tools they provided. It made for a frustrating experience. The open world compounded the problem because on a first playthrough you don't know where the upgrades are. Margit was super frustrating because I had a +1 weapon and couldn't find upgrade materials. The open world was full of stuff, but all I wanted was focused dungeons and that less than half the game.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes it sounds like a lot of players agree that condescending down the open world elements would have been an improvement :-)

[@99konondrums]

@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks for the reply. And thanks for your channel Mark. I got into shmups about 2 years ago now, and your channel has helped me immensely.

[@nilkilnilkil]

I think it's a good evolution of dark souls but it won't matter if they revert on style ...

[@ib5995]

Elden ring is great and all, but I hope you guys talk about Gunvein

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Don t you worry when gunvein drops I m going to be all over it !!

[@travisbplank]

I would say yes, definitely overrated. It's just Dark Souls without tight level design. I love open world or sandbox games, but they didnt exwcute well on that aspect. The combat is still good, but that just made me loathe the time spent travelling between fights and poking around for the gear I actually wanted

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

1:59:35 Nah, Godrick is also trash. He has unreactable attacks which is unfair which is a no-no, and those combos you mentioned are usually best avoided by just staying back and eating popcorn which is what I'd consider bottom tier gameplay. The theming is nice but the mechanics are shoddy.

[@geminielf]

"Dark Souls 2 has great DLC" "Dark Souls 3 is overall forgettable" Boghog you're not a clown. You're the entire circus

[@sladejosephwilson2300]

For me. What drew me into the souls games were the boss fights and the design of the world. That's it. The difficulty was good but, the game play and enemies made me lose interest after a while. I want to like it more but, it doesn't hold my attention.

[@williambargery5855]

The symphony of the night part of the discussion really resonated with me. I think rondo and classic vania overall is so much better overall to the point that symphony is pretty overrated.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Exactly!!! Sotn gets hype for a lot of it s fantastic surface elements, like the graphics and ost, but the game design is far from perfect

[@ImWatchingYou69]

I''m not even a huge classic CV fan but this is spot on. The Iga CV's are kind of dull games tbh lol. I forget they exist.

[@nilkilnilkil]

I guess the elden ring world is meant to be a desolate place ...

[@PedroFerreira-sx2gd]

Never played , and Will probably never play elden rings since my computer is a toaster. If there is Two kinds of games that i don t like is strategy and RPG. I played until dark souls 2, because i liked the boss fights , and ambience (only things that i liked). The games are almost Impossible without walkthroughs, Also hate to equip the character, not having checkpoints and getting Lost.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah stay away from the PC version!!! Yikes! Ha I feel you for sure, what I did is watch KZbinrs and just copy their routes rather than walking around lost

[@lexiferenczy9695]

The skipping enemies problem could be solved by making it way harder to flee from enemies once they are chasing you, maybe make them faster or have more ranged attacks etc. Progressing itself shouldn't be that easy just because it's an open world. The other thing I'd like to see implemented would be that you can't open chests so fast, so that it's more likely that enemies cancel you out of the opening animation, the same goes for opening doors. Otherwise it's laughably easy to cheese your way through the game by just running past every enemy.

[@AKTANEARCADE]

Yeah we talk about this a bit and I tend to agree with you overall, it should be condensed and more dangerous moment to moment

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah and maybe even restrict fast travel more, so once you quest into a new territory you can't exist until you ve defeated the boss

[@boghogSTG]

That would have some pretty massive implications for regular combat. Because it's not necessarily the speed that keeps enemies from being able to chase you, it's also them having significant startup times on their attacks. By the time they're within range and are starting up their attacks, you're already gonna be out of range. It would require either reducing startup times or extending all attacks which would fuck up spacing. Not to mention, if you mix this with a high movement speed the enemies will be constantly on your ass in combat in a way that'll probably be incredibly frustrating. Importantly, since you're probably gonna retread ground in the open world & because most of the meaningful content is contained within dungeons, it'd also become very tedious to fight enemies every time. Also, letting players lead enemies anywhere can lead to some really nasty technical issues, leashes exist for a reason. Bringing back the vulnerability when opening stuff from Dark Souls 2 wouldn't be bad though but I think all it would do is make running past enemies to grab stuff more complicated, rather than discourage players from doing it. After all the DS2 DLC's had areas that tried their best to prevent you from running to the boss and what happened? People still did it, they just felt extra frustrated with it. This kinda stuff is best handled with incentives IMO, it's an almost inherent issue with most 3D games.

[@lexiferenczy9695]

@@boghogSTG There could be a system in place, which stops too much enemies being active at the same time, so it wouldn't matter that much, when you are followed by enemies through another area, but it is of course the question how hard it would be to smoothly implement that. But enemies don't really have to follow you extremely long, it just shouldn't be that easy how it currently is, to shake them off. They should have some attack which can reach you, when you are facing away from them while running away. So that running away needs a bit of evading skill and isn't just mindless. I personally like it, when even normal progression in an open world isn't that easy and has some sort of survival feeling to it. But not every area has to be the same level of danger. I'd just like enemies which are dangerous to escape from in some areas not everywhere. The rune bears are already a quite good example for that, they make it a bit harder to escape from them even with a horse.

[@HolySok]

This has been a thing since Demons Souls. These games are always about exploring where nook and cranny forcing you to fight enemies. Then skipping enemies once you die a lot. Also Dark Souls 2 has your solution but I find it actually get aggravating. You just want to move onto the next bit you haven't explored but you've got to contend with those enemies over and over and over again. Especially if you're fighting a boss. If you don't want to explore all the nooks and crannies you can just breeze by everyone but you've been able to do that since the first game

[@KevenLC]

to me this is the best game of 2022 and I don't see any games surpassing it so far.... Horizon 2 is certainly much more overrated.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Elden ring is the only good mainstream game in a hot minute, I respect it ha

[@Fco2k7]

It's unfortunate that Horizon 2 was released in the same month as Elden Ring, and people didn't pay much attention to Guerrilla's game. It happened the same way with Horizon 1 and BoTW at the time.

[@notnoaintno5134]

I always thought the souls games had chunky movement and fighting. Sure theyre hard i guess but thats because your character is slow as hell. I need dashes and fast movements

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Hence why I always switch over to ninja gaiden!

[@kagemara277]

Dark Souls is to me like adult Legend of Zelda that I wish will come out one day! TOTK was far better than Elden Ring to me just for its creativity-and there was decent difficulty-which you can increase if you don’t farm hearts. I just wish they added Mater Mode so enemies recover health when you are not aggressive enough. Anyway, overall I think I had a more epic experience with the first DS than Bloodborne, but it was mainly because Bloodborne level design felt too similar-nothing really stood out like the levels in DS1. I love both games but the level design in DS is better I feel and I think I would rather replay DS than Bloodborne, but I love BB too so don’t wanna say it’s a worse game. I just feel BB has slightly better combat, but DS has still more options. It’s a tough choice. But for anyone who hates meaningless running around, I would recommend MH Sunbreak-I think the focus on big fights is cool and more fair than Elden ring.

[@segatouringcar3738]

A game that read your inputs and have appropriate patterns to the situation to kill you if you don't play dirty, is outdate as hell. No skill needed, just time to waste.

[@JustFun-ho6qy]

Literally every pve game with somewhat complex a. I. routines does that. Or do you honestly believe the computer is analysing visual and/or auditory information before reacting accordingly?

[@segatouringcar3738]

@@JustFun-ho6qy This is not true. Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Devil May Cry, Vanquish... these games have REAL mechanics and patterns that works, and you play with that without needed to play dirty because the AI is reading your inputs or whatever. There is a big difference between a studied and complex combat system and one that needs cheating to make it look like a challenge because the reality is that it is a super simple combat system.

[@JustFun-ho6qy]

@@segatouringcar3738 Bayonetta, especially Bayonetta 2, is chock full of enemies and bosses who will insta-dodge a grand majority of your attacks unless you follow a very specific battle plan. I don't see how this is any different to an Elden Ring enemy that is designed to punish panic healing. A behavior you can turn into an opportunity by healing outside the enemy's attack range I might add.

[@segatouringcar3738]

@@JustFun-ho6qy Nah, even if you don't see it, there is a difference between constantly running away, having to heal yourself because they leave you shivering in one blow, etc. etc and having to use a more or less complex active combat strategy with tools to do that. In any case, Bayonetta 2 has other more important flaws, such as the confusing colors on many occasions that make it difficult to distinguish what is happening on the screen or that the enemies cut off your combos. That's why I didn't name it xD, Bayonettta 1 is way better. Hope Bayonetta 3 too.

[@KittenChaos90]

I finished Elden Ring last year and got the regular ending. I think people who love it are valid in their love for it but I didn't feel the same. The first two thirds of the game were pretty good. I can say I enjoyed the challenge up to a certain point. But once I got to the Snow area with Fire Giant, the game started to piss me off. But I made it to the end out of spite. My major problem was that I had a skill issue of knowing when to hit the enemies and when to dodge because attack windows felt small to me. So I'd be doing decent damage but it was like their health trickled down while I get obliterated in one hit. This happened more in that final third of the game. I got exhausted by that and it colored my experience pretty badly. In conclusion, I would say the game is overrated to ME, but I understand why people love it so much. I just don't share the same affection, but I beat it in spite of that.

[@Mayhzon]

It's not just you. This was a common complaint. Even with a high armor and high vigor build on baseline NG, you will get one-shotted or close to it a lot. Don't even ask about NG+ options...

[@desfefe]

The final third was just not properly balanced, and it seems like maybe the developers thought that you would have optimised your build to no end by that point, and that you would be overpowered enough to be able to make it. I loved the game, and have replayed it and finished it so many times. But flawed it is. The final areas (haligtree as an example) is just about rushing through it, ignoring the filler enemies to get to the dungeon boss. That's unacceptable, but well.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

2:50 Mediator.

[@ponysew1740]

I'll not be surprised if Mark give Tunic 6/10 for similar reasons ha.

[@kagemara277]

You were kinda joking about level design, and I don’t usually care for graphics or look around at the environment and say wow what textures, BUT when I played Tears of the Kingdom, and stood on some of the sky islands, the weather was changing, then jumped down, fought on the ground and then discovered a big hole in the ground and jumped in and got into the Depths- it gave me a similar feeling of amazement like when I first played Dark Souls1. For level design only, I have to recommend TOTK which is probably the only open world game that deserves attention- because I honestly hate open world games in most cases. But Elden Ring’s world suck- I got bored of it. It is too big and even if it’s not an open world that doesn’t matter, because you just waste so much time running around and it’s not so much fun. The gameplay density is better in other DS games.

[@shanecorning5222]

Hmmmmm - I really was diggin' - I think it's Elder Scrolls 3? MORROWIND? And now it is ported to ALL the PC systems even Linux is coming along pretty well. Is that the one you start in a ship, get brought to the tiny Port Town? And there is the cave with the bandits? .... But yeah I did NOT Like having to collect all the mushroom types, and, then, inventory gets too full etc. That ALWAYS sucks yes especially when it very much effects the realtime combat.

[@shanecorning5222]

Which is why I need to get Valheim on STEAM. ..... Tree houses, and, storage chests! And cool shit.

[@shanecorning5222]

the CHESTS are a huge advantage in such a crafting game as Valheim. .... HEY have you SEEN them "surf" down the mountain, yet, on a boat????? :-D

[@shanecorning5222]

@ BOGHOG : Valheim it is NOT easy to skip enemies to run away, common enemies will follow you. Or even spot you and immediately attack. Bosses you HAVE to win to "exit" Boss mode yeah. .... Enemies also will try to randomly attack your "castles", hence, I say make Treehouses. .... ALSO you typically want the DROPS from common enemies to say craft arrows for instance.

[@Sedifet]

Aktane gained a fan haha. Loved Elden Ring and SotN. Two of my favorite games of all time

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha it was a fun conversation! Yes def check out his channel and bog's bullet hell guide!

[@AKTANEARCADE]

Thanks! I'm really excited to get back into Elden Ring, I am curious what happens when I play more and explore more of the weapons, abilities, summons, and such. I have some life stuff going on but as soon as that stuff is resolved I'm gonna have more time to Elden!! I always thought the Castlevania comparison was correct for me personally so it seems to at least have landed with you too 😂

[@shinbakihanma2749]

Dark Sou... I mean, ELDEN RING is definitely overrated to a criminal degree.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha these are not the souls you are working for. It is absolutely over rated critically, at the same time it is a quality game which is refreshing for a mainstream release

[@shinbakihanma2749]

@@TheElectricUnderground This is why I love your channel, because you're generally competent and reasonable in your views.

[@verygoodfreelancer]

frothing demand!!

[@Boildroid]

It's Dark Sauce with open world.

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

From software games are good but require too much time to start enjoying them. Breath of the Wild hooks you from the first minute. From software games require that classic 2-3 initial hours to get into. And that's where they lost me. Also there is no sleep function to pause for a week or something. In BOTW you could return after a week and continue as usual.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I think they did improve this aspect in eldren ring, where you basically get cooking right away. And this is coming from me, where i struggle to get into them just like you describe.

[@powerinmisery]

Are those 2 - 3 hours too much for you? If that's the case there are a loooot of great games you'll never be able to get into

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

@@powerinmisery Yeah I know. Family and work leave little space for these types of games.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

2:30:45 Protip, if you light the plants on fire, the poison clouds disappear immediately. I used pots but you can prolly use magic or enchants, too. Don't get me wrong, they're still effin' annoying. :P

[@neondagger]

I am unqualified to answer the question as I haven't played the game. However I have played Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Bloodborne. And my partner has played through all, including Elden Ring. What's clear is it is a solid entry in that formula, with the addition of open world elements. To me, open world just fails on a pure gameplay level. I understand people also like to just escape into worlds endlessly. But to me that is more like watching a longform show with some interactive aspect. Personally, I would have liked to have seen the open world addition ditched, and instead maybe added a complex combo system. Something more akin to fighting games with a wake-up game, special meter, and more risk-reward. Souls has always had a weird risk/reward balance. The biggest reward is typically very low risk, which is backwards. Like, just wait, and backstab. Parries are satisfying, but really are pretty risky and generally much lower reward. So I would have liked better balance and a more mature combat system.

[@shinbakihanma2749]

If you've played Demons Soul, Dark Souls and Bloodborne, then you ARE DEFINITELY QUALIFIED to answer the question. Dark Sou... erm, I mean ELDEN RING, is the SAME. FUCKING. GAME. except now you have a more open world, and a mount you can ride. Same fucking game.

[@neondagger]

@@shinbakihanma2749 I know. I'm just not sure if it qualifies as "masterpiece" or not. I mean, this is a shmup channel and if you gave me Espgaluda III and it barely changed from the first two, I'd probably be inclined to consider it a masterpiece. Those games are just too good. Though there is a point where there's not enough iteration changes to give full credit.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh excellent insights my dude! We all come to very similar conclusions as well.

[@boghogSTG]

Just play Nioh 2 dude it has literally all of that & more, and then hope for a dream Team Ninja x FROM collab

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

2:07:25 I get what you're saying but the problem is that the game turns into an unfair cheap-move fest when taking the "hardcore" approach. I know, I beat it using pure melee and colossals dual wielded, with no summons or other gadgets. In my experience, the game wasn't built around being tackled in the hardcore way in every scenario.

[@Albertredneck]

I have to massively disagree with Boghog. Judging Elden Ring by 120 hours of boss run melee combat it's just wrong. I did that in my fist run, and it felt like hard BDSM. It's just not meant to be played like that.

[@boghogSTG]

You're right experiences can vary a ton, that's why I made sure to mention my build so others don't go "huh what's this guy talking about?" That said, it feels a bit bullshit that a playstyle which was always really fun & "pure" suddenly feels so frustrating. If you think that the devs did intend for everyone to use spirit ashes and a mix of ranged/melee and I'm just being stubborn then yeah, almost every complaint I have about the combat will be insignificant or inapplicable.

[@Albertredneck]

@@boghogSTG I agree on that, my pure strength greatsword + shield felt under leveled as shit during the whole run. But the problem is somewhere else: ER encourages exploration, if you don't explore the world, you're just fighting with sticks against nuclear weapons. And I'm not just talking about spirit ashes (you can ignore them), but weapons, armor, weapon arts, affinities, talismans, smithing stones, improved flasks... all of that is required for a healthy ER experience. ER encourages exploration in multiple ways: landscapes, world building, lore, the diversity of locations (nothing looks copy pasted, even though it is), cool rewards (gotta get them all, like nice looking armors to show off lol), etc. Sadly, action vs enemies and bosses is not one of the reasons that encourages exploration, because all of them are reused, and you'll fight all of them even if you don't explore and instead just go through the main story.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I ll have to wait till I get to the later bosses to see what I think, but I play the same way bog does where I never use spells and just use my sword the whole time 🗡️

[@Albertredneck]

@@TheElectricUnderground You'll enjoy it, Mark. But I'm like Bog, I just like the Gut's sword unga bunga and killing my bosses as fast as possible. Not enough patience to master them. I can totally understand Bog's problems with the last boss lol, it was such a bitch! So, in other words, I need to be a bit over leveled in order to actually have a chance with most bosses. And that's what I'm doing in my second playthrough.

[@boghogSTG]

@@Albertredneck Maybe you're right and the fact that a lot of us are walking into the game with lots of preconceptions about what it SHOULD be like ends up fucking us over but I do find it hard to believe that FROM would just suddenly completely change how they design their bosses & enemies. A lot of that stuff also does make the game easier yes but it doesn't make the combat better. I could get lots of flasks, talismans, use nice bleed weapons, etc. but I still gotta wait out strings (or learn some really obscure punishes), I'd still get baited into punishing only to be blasted in the face with a 5 hit combo, bosses would still jump around & cancel their moves before I can get punishes out, AOE's would still make me run around like a headless chicken, and so on. It expects you to play a really difficult but unrewarding defensive game. I could see it being a lot more fun for RPG minded players though who experiment with builds

[@Lunal1993]

Still at the beginning here, but for me Dark Souls combat in general is boring and far too slow. Bloodborne is the only game in the series that I enjoyed at least a little bit, but the reliance of stats ruins it for me. I wish there was no stamina meter, that's the big issue.

[@RavenV2]

i thought you disliked sekiro's combat because of the parry

[@TonyTonyRedgrave]

respect for order of ecclesia soundtrack Also with regards to Sekiro, every souls game has the problem of it being really trivial to run past enemies to be fair, you just gotta play them with a sort of honor system where you willfully engage with the combat rather than skipping it. It's dumb as fuck, always bothered me too, but a problem with a lot of 3D games that don't make a point of boxing you in. On the other hand I actually find most of the overworld encounters in Elden Ring to be so laughably trivial that they're a waste of time and I really think a lot of them are just there to fill space and provide grinding opportunities.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

A man of taste!

[@AlastairGames]

I was super hyped for this game, but was dissapointed and put it down after a day. The lack of direction, empty world, being able to ignore all the content. I did a secret dungeon at the start, only to find out the boss is not designed for level 1s, went to fight the knight only to fight out that I'm not suppose to do that either, this same problem on repeat. Am I underleveled or was I meant to do this now? Should I come back to this part later? Had a summon guide me through an entire castle, that I felt like I was cheating. Just nothing fun, except the graphics and horse combat was decent. And now because this game was a success, are we ever going to have a denser more linear Fromsoftware game again? I wanted to be a fan but now I feel like the only AAA game company I like has died.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah the open world stuff is not a design choice I like either. What I decided to do is literally pull up playthroughs on KZbin and write down where they went ✍️. A lame bit of homework, but yeah I agree with you that wandering around is pretty lame

[@markalterado88]

Critically acclaimed games will always get criticised through a microscope because there will always be people that go against the status quo for the sake of it.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Absolutely, but you know what s crazy is that this practice is becoming less mainstream these days (which I think is a problem). Mainstream "critics" hardly ever go after popular titles these days. I kinda miss when they did

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

We gonna see Elden Ring Kumite?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That would be entertaining for sure ha

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

"Not a Souls game." Lol it's DS4.

[@dingo535]

Shinobi on PS2 would start to drain your health you don’t keep killing enemies. The best open world game I’ve played was nier automata, it wasn’t very big which I think helped it.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah having an enclosed open world really helps

[@johnsmith-xw7hv]

Dude didn't remember if he was cursed? Gonna call faker here. You don't forget that shit. Game cuts your max hp in half forever and can't get it back until you find a special npc or item that cures it.

[@HolySok]

Have to say it's the most unbalanced and unwieldy From Soft game but honestly the most rewarding and exciting one. I found the simple act of traversing the world both relaxing and engaging. The open world left like it was designed like 1 huge Dark Souls level rather than a generic open. Enemies and challenges to find around every corner. I never really knew if I thought the item descriptions used as storytelling was good or an unimmersive way to reveal the world to the player. But Elden Ring it felt like there was so much story to unpack. Whereas some previous Dsrk Souls kept thing relatively vague ER felt like it had a much deeper history to uncover. And it made me realise the genius of the idea. That even if you find items that don't fit your build they still provide you with a reward in the form of a new Puzzle Piece for the story. Even when I never used Spirit Summons I was excited finding new ones as they'd give me more information on the creatures I've been fighting etc. And honestly I can't remember any game that's managed to keep surprising me over 100 hours in. GTA is great but you've pretty much experienced most of ehat the game has to offer 10 hours. Elden Ring has such a huge variety of enemies, bosses and locales it just kept reinvigorating me whenever I started to get tired by the length. Think going to Cuba in Red Dead 2, or discovering St Denis for the first time. But this happening over and over again. One thing ER has is the freedom of approach. It's crazy to me that this game can be serene and relaxing. Play Dark Souls 3 and you have a challenging Gauntlet from beginning to end. Elden Ring felt like a game designed for you to get lost and soul ot all in.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Great post my dude!!! I like your insights here where it is both full of soaring highs and boring lows

[@inrptn]

Not a perfect game, but definitely the best game of 2022.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

As far as mainstream games go, there is zero doubt it is significantly better than the competition ha

[@inrptn]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yes, def for mainstream. Not really fair to compare with indies.

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

The biggest flaw of ER to me - other than it being incredibly padded and tedious for arbitrary reasons - is that it severely limits certain play styles during certain scenarios. It isn't a deal of "play however you want and it'll be fun in its own way", it's more like "vs this guy, if you play like this, it'll be piss easy, and if you don't, it'll be incredibly mundane or frustrating".

[@SlinkyRock]

I feel like we played a different game, my complaint with Elden Ring(granted this REALLY started with Dark souls 3) is that all enemies seem equipped to deal with every situation. They have gap closers if you're ranged, they have get out of my face attacks if you're close to them, they have medium ranged attacks and dashes if you're healing, they have EVERYTHING to deal with every situation. So, I disagree. In Dark souls 1 I was able to make use of the RPG aspects because I could properly strategize against them.

[@KABLAMMATS]

​@@SlinkyRockop has skill issues

[@kagemara277]

I feel this discussion is too broad. I agree with Mark on most things, but how do we judge open world- yeah I agree if games focus on gameplay more and cut meaningless RPG crap out, but why TOTK and BOTW have the best open worlds is the overall package- the choices- like I go somewhere but I don’t have an armor-I can use some mushrooms to give me that resistance. Or I need to scale something and it’s raining and I can’t climb- I can cut trees or catapult myself over. The gamble with stamina while climbing makes it also risk-reward And one more thing to scaling obstacles in Zelda- you had to look at the surface, your stamina, and also the angles on the wall since the stamina would drain differently based on how you go up and which path you choose-it’s way more deep than people realize. Souls games are all about combat and the world is empty and bland compared to Zelda, but what’s the focus? DS is about atmosphere, combat and clever level design to me. Zelda is the first game that just utilised everything in one package well. Combat, Lore, sense of discovery, crafting, cooking, movement, traps, platforming, creating tech, beautiful environments, and some tough fights( even though the main bosses could be harder) also the legends and lore mixed with dungeons- and how each dungeon transitioned like starting on a volcano then jumping in and having no a dungeon in the depths. Or going from below a lake caves onto sky islands. Zelda also pushes skill and experimentation so anything has various solutions-which pushes creativity, not like Elden ring when there’s one solution and that’s it. Open world is not about how designed the enviroment is, it’s about how interconnected everything is. Like a simple apple- I can eat it, I can cook it, I can feed it to horses to make them friendlier to catch. One item can change progression and interaction with multiple things in the game and everything has multiple purposes. So we need to judge how to rank Open World-and what are my choices and if the openness has a benefit. I like Zeldas approach because I can play it on the go without any grinding at all and go anywhere literally because it’s that free- that’s awesome. Souls games have far more roadblocks- so Zelda has better open world. Elden ring only wins because of challenging combat-but don’t harvest hearts in Zelda and try to finish a dungeon, beat minibosses and explore depths,… I feel that Zelda is rhe least grindy, meaningful gameplay experiences out there, and the challenge can still be there, even if not on the same level as DS- but what is difficulty- having the patience of perfectly dodging the same thing 100times-being nervous I don’t make a mistake?! Or finding a solution that can end the fight fast-thus rewarding creativity not punishing me for it because that’s what Elden ring is-a spam fest-well that can be fun if we consider Super Mario Bros2(jpn)? I think the best of both worlds is ideal. Even in DS-I don’t play it for the bosses because some are just lame, but they fit the environment and the atmosphere is great. So U feel making a game that uses its own mechanics and blends them well together is crucial, not just tossing a game into another genre because it’s trendy-and that’s what they did-most people would probably criticise if they made another ds1 after ds3 no matter how great it would be! I would honestly prefer Elden ring to be more like DS1. They used Open World just for marketing and it’s not supposed to be there! We all play games for certain reasons and I can understand why Zelda might not be for you Mark- even though TOTK became the top game of all time for me recently, because we come from a similar era and I usually love more intense linear experiences like MGS1/3,4, DS1, RE, GOW, NG1/2, DK, Bayonetta, Doom 2016-my fav fps, Wonderful 101, Castlevania, Metroid,..because it’s intense 12-15h that are amazing and I wanna replay it again on higher diff, not like finishing one bland but ok game in 40-80h and never playing it again because it’s too much. Back again to open world- I can finish Zelda in 10-15h too if I want to and if I am clever and good enough-I can make the game anything I want-and that’s what made it the top for me- it’s a game that respects my time, and it can be crazy ass long, but it can be intense and short if I need it to be. I understand where you are coming from, but feel like some comparisons are like comparing a swimmer to a sprinter.

[@JuanRoosterbeard]

MarkCRT...

[@SlinkyRock]

"Everytime I play Dark souls after about five hours I just boot up Ninja Gaiden" Well that's the thing, anything about Souls as an action game or 'hard' game can be mitigated by the fact it's an RPG as well. While Ninja Gaiden is the purest, actually difficult action game out there. Getting past the "skip enemies" thing is pretty easy: Design fun combat, and have enemies have resources that you need. So you have to go kill them if you want shit, and it's also fun to fight them.

[@arisumego]

1:00:23 sorry but this is a trash opinion, dragon's dogma IS really good and doesn't deserve to be shit on completely like this because it's flawed

[@ZarkAttack]

No Souls boss takes 40 min wtf 😂 that is NOT the norm

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

Bosses suck. lol Their idea of difficulty is "hit you in a giant AoE at all times everywhere without any punish windows, fuuuu". Or "you standing there breaks my AI so I'll do this one easily punishable attack over and over like a dumbass". No inbetween. Either case is bad.

[@MegaMath3]

The thing about Monster Hunter is: you didn't kill the monster in the area you have met? Your bad he's gonna run away and recover Edit: Rise made the chase a fun part of the Gameplay

[@TheElectricUnderground]

yeah monster hunter is interesting, I would like to play the series more but it's a bit too heavy on the rpg side for me.

[@TheRyanshamowski]

Arkham asylum had a pretty good open world with combat that imo is better than elden rings. Traversal was massively better than elden ring and the game forced you to fight enemies in closed areas.

[@RavenV2]

sekiro DID make a boss rush. so did hollow knight

[@Albertredneck]

Aktane: if the enemy is fucking cool looking, I don't care if it's repetitive Mark: LIKE BEARS! lol the guy was literally thinking on a bad ass looking knight.

[@AKTANEARCADE]

True! Hahaha

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Bears are cool 🐻 XD

[@AKTANEARCADE]

@@TheElectricUnderground the game threw me to the Bears that one time and it was rad as hell cuz I was under leveled and scared and excited 🤣

[@Albertredneck]

@@AKTANEARCADE I'm a fancy over leveled sorcerer right now and those guys still scare me.

[@AKTANEARCADE]

@@Albertredneck if ya don't get some scary assholes to run past while they try to one shot ya, is it really dark souls 🤣

[@TheMilhouseExperience]

Any use of the word “masterpiece” as praise just shows how diluted any criticism a person can give is worth. ER is a great game, but it is no masterpiece. Far from it.

[@jmarra07]

Spam-fest? In what way? You have to be very purposeful or you'll get smashed

[@nilkilnilkil]

Final fantasy is way better than Bethesda skyrim trash ... 🗑

[@neontetra1000]

Looking good mark! You been out in the sun!? Them Pearly whites are sparkling too! . I bet you been 1cc’ing the babes!.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I have been!!!! I had the week off and spent every day riding my bike ha

[@chriscangelosi9438]

It's so hard, it'll make your eyes bleed! You'll die if you even try to play it 😮😅