Lore Revelations in the Shadow of the Erdtree

[@syamantakdutta]

everyone apologize to Mohg

[@VaatiVidya]

This is the dedicated apology thread. Post em

[@ashjackson8638]

@@VaatiVidya sorry mohg you are less of a bad person now

[@cutcutado]

Sorry Mogh, we should've known better ever since we read the bewitching branch description

[@casper2501]

Sorry papa mogh🙄

[@james737er]

i’m sorry mohg

[@brunohommerding3416]

Sir Ansbach is the best NPC in this DLC by far, he says one of the best lines if he gets defeated during the Radahn fight: "Righteous Tarnished, become a lord, not for gods, but for all men." Like literally "fuck the gods, do it for us"

[@BreakRaven]

And that's how Ranni simping got vindicated.

[@WhiteKnuckleRide512]

*Igon yelling angrily in the corner*

[@RegencyYarl]

My new favorite character, fuck the gods indeed.

[@gsenjou9182]

Yeah, it's funny isn't it? Leda, the holy knight serving "Miquella the Kind" turned out to be this murder-happy lunatic, meanwhile the guy who used to serve the literal Lord of Blood turns out to be the most respectful, reasonable of them all.

[@Boamere]

@@gsenjou9182 From did it again!!! I love ansbach so much

[@someguywithcancer1595]

You do get to tell Ansbach that you killed Mogh and he’s like “it’s cool, shit happens when you want to be a lord”

[@presussy]

I think the coolest part about it is that you didn't tell him, he always knew.

[@Shadowjesse00]

Ansbach is that dude

[@Mene0]

He the goat

[@indrickboreale5463]

Ansbach is THE guy. I will never forget his final words. He alone has made me wish to join Mohg back when he was normal :( with men like him as his right hand, it makes you think just how cool Mohg used to have been

[@nomad3182]

5th attempt thank you 😅

[@Wizard_Graphics]

"I think the fingers had a hand in it" *Damn you Vaati*

[@TheOuchee]

Dissapointed I had to scroll this far down to see this.

[@Travar1410]

Lol

[@karanbharat1951]

his Silver-tongue strikes again!

[@IlliantheGrandMage]

Cue the sunglasses and "YEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

[@yadeel8281]

god named Finger:

[@davidpo5517]

So assuming they are two halves of the same person, Miquella abandoned his love in his other self, St Trina...which means when St Trina asks you to kill Miquella, it's out of genuine, actual love and care for what's happening to him. It's also why St Trina dies when you kill him.

[@martusmartus8976]

because she no matter what is his other half, she would be always tied to his essence no matter what

[@Ursi]

Makes me wonder if St. Trina is literally his love, as in his actual compassionate side that wouldn't want to steal corpses and souls.

[@politicallyenraged2342]

If st trina died when we killed miquella, did Marika die when we killed radagon?

[@antoniomontana95]

@@politicallyenraged2342Well wasnt this obvious? You can see her lifeless remains after we defeat Radagon and then the Elden Beast

[@33alei]

If the other half dies when the other does why dont we kill st trina?

[@LD-tl1iv]

Marika can't seem to escape her past. She tried purging the world of the crucible, and even sought to erase its memory in her new order-- only for it to manifest in her sons. She tried to purge her son of the evil snake thing inside him, then later abandoned and hid him from the world-- only for Rykard to go insane and have himself be consumed by one. She plucked the rune of death, in order to create a deathless age- only for her daughter to use that same rune to kill her golden son-- who, in turn, would become the avatar of another form of death. And the irony of it all- she gained power and created a new era, in the service of a God who might not have been there at all.

[@ba6368]

Father Pucci moment

[@anonisnoone6125]

She truly is a trash person. Ranni deserved a horrible fate as well.

[@Stats_Baer]

No wonder she shattered the Elden Ring and said FU to all her useless, ungrateful little brats.

[@GideonRavenor712]

TBF, it seems likely the Hornsent cursed her children. It also goes a long way to explain why Godwyn's assassination hit her so hard. Out of all of her "true" children (By this, I don't count the Carian siblings, as none of them viewed Marika as their true parent), he was perfect, the one child she had herself as Marika that was unblemished by ANY curse and who was the most beloved of all of them.

[@donovan4222]

Do you think Rykards snake is in any way connected to Messmer’s snake curse?

[@destrorso2505]

A detail with messmer is that every statue of marika in the keep is beheaded, expect the one cradling the baby in his arena

[@amannamedsquid313]

Not just the keep, everywhere in the land of shadow.

[@nikolai347]

probably cause they felt betrayed by Marika's abandon. So they cut off her head on every statue. Except the one in his throne chamber since he protects it. He understood her betrayal only near death

[@Brasswatchman]

​@@nikolai347 Nah. He knew all along. He just couldn't bring himself to admit it.

[@ExcitedInThePants]

As well as the statue in the shaman village!!

[@bclxprss]

I'm not sure that's Marika. That might be the Grandmother Marika offered her hairbriad to. Notably that statue has all loose hair and Marika has braids

[@silentjosh847]

Radahn: “I’ll die before I become your consort.” Miquella: “okay, deal!!”

[@lovelessamphitheater4287]

Lol radahn was Holding back the stars soo that fate would remain stagnant soo that his fate of becoming miquellas consort would not come to pass even when he was basically brain dead..But Ranni had to just be the Independent Queen that she is...and as her simp we do the deed..Sorry Mogh and RADAHN ..for being a simp..

[@UnalloyedRascal]

Hilariously enough that might have actually been the deal and radahn was totally accepting of the consort part. At the very least he did accept to be his consort. According to freyja's questline

[@Xer405]

​@@lovelessamphitheater4287 Yeah because a world where everyone is a slave is such an endearing fate...

[@excalibur2596]

​​@@UnalloyedRascalI doubt It Because if Radahn already agreed to the vow, Miquella has no reason to kill him. Radahn can just resume the movement of the stars and become his consort willingly. He most likely refused because he felt that following someone's orders is disgraceful for someone as strong as himself or he just refused so that the entire world doesn't get turned into Miquella's slaves.

[@DrooledOn]

@@Xer405proof?

[@ikksnay]

damn, miquella really learned about the secret plot behind his mother's rise to godhood concealing oppression, murder, and subjugation and went "there's only one way to make this right: I gotta ascend to godhood via some kind of secret plot concealing oppression, murder, and subjugation"

[@NoConsequenc3]

It's like people that praise police violence as "actually solving the problem" - brother they used to crucify people in public and romans were still stealing bread, you're just being straight up fucking evil

[@pufnbal1744]

The apple didn't fall to far from the tree, or in another way to put it. Like mother like son.

[@emeerhakeem9549]

"its never been done before!"

[@GideonRavenor712]

He actually deliberately goes down this method to Godhood in order to get out and away from Marika's heritage, because he figures out Marika's entire bloodline is cursed by the Hornsent due to how she ascended, hence why he casts practically all of himself away, he wants to make his own thing, free of the "old order" (Which Marika doesn't oppose, she did tell ALL of her children to become whatever they wish to be). The consequence of doing this though, as Ansbach figures out, and St. Trina directly implies, is that by throwing away everything that made Miquella who he was, even if he was benevolent before, how could he EVER rule benevolently? All that's left of him is basically the shell of himself, not bound by any doubts or cares, with his powers to charm anyone into perfect loyalty. And what has he done merely to begin with? Made a Frankenstein's monster of two of his brothers to MAKE himself a Lord-Consort, not even understanding the degradation done to either of them. You can't even argue it's a malevolent decision, because he doesn't even understand what he's doing in such terms. May well be a consequence of his eternal youth. That being said, I do think he fully understood what it meant when he cast his St. Trina half away, otherwise he wouldn't have deliberately hidden it.

[@viderevero1338]

​@@GideonRavenor712Good points all around. This comment fucks. Ive screenshotted it. 👍🏽

[@_ONGBAL]

Sorry Mohg..

[@luminproductions3927]

It's Ongbal!

[@gugg2216]

Sorry mohg..as you proceed to nuke him in 8 seconds

[@Jesse_Wharton]

Apologize to radahn and his developers that went out of their way to nuke your ass and still failed

[@Vanaolla]

Ongbog

[@todd2.08]

Omg inkbal???

[@Masterhaend]

"on your 400th attempt" You didn't have to fucking rub it in...

[@MaximillionPegasusJ.Crawford]

You didn't have to cut me off

[@Gebohq]

I hope it *only* takes me 400 attempts!

[@Talon--B29555]

My wounds are still healing from that day

[@JinnaiV2]

@@MaximillionPegasusJ.Crawford Nekalakininahappe nenawiwanatin

[@gyrozeppeli00]

it took me 10 hours

[@Leo_Zackular_Art]

“Pure and radiant, he wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men…there is nothing more terrifying.” Is one of my favorite lines in all of from soft

[@Bombom1300]

It honestly feels like a similar thing to Galadriel's "All shall love me and despair" from Lord of the Rings. Of course, in her take she rejected this plan of action as a terrible fate.

[@anemonesiac]

I can only think of that episode of Gumball where Darwin becomes a dictator of safety lmao

[@davepresley4689]

They knew what they were doing when they put it in the trailer

[@AlexCatable]

Indeed! The phrase is so beautifully ominous and frightening.

[@yoga5631]

Tbf ansbach death line during the radhan fight hits harder "Righteous Tarnished. Become our new lord. A lord not for gods, but for men."

[@kishinpain]

We all know very well that the only one for whom Radhan would become a consort was his horse.

[@Reemon27]

ikr? the moment i saw him in the last battle i KNEW he wasnt himself bcz he was leonard-less

[@Ekzanimus]

It is a missed opportunity on phase 2 to use Miquela on his shoulders and not in the place of his horse.

[@Bthakilla4rilla]

Your comment made me die lmfao

[@ArcaeroOfUvirith]

And this is how centaurs are born

[@smitywerbanyagermanjenson875]

I expected him to roar “LEONARD” during the second phase cutscene.

[@dougal937]

Miquella's promised age of enchantment reminds me of one of my favourite lines in a souls game from Aldia in Scholar of the First Sin when he says "No matter how tender, how exquisite... A lie will remain a lie."

[@nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej3384]

ok can someone explain to me why people call miquella a he but he dresses like a girl, has a girls's hair and his voice is like a girl.

[@waspoptic]

A LIE WILL REMAIN A LIE!!! Gotta be the greatest quote from any Fromsoft game

[@nayyarrashid4661]

​@@waspopticIt sure sounds so good but the greatest dailogue will always be, hand it over that thang your dark soul. For my lady's painting. Nothing else will take the top spot from the best ever conclusion to a series so befittingly. It has always been about dark souls. Gwyn Namless King all else didn't really matter. This is the end. That's the culmination.

[@AdibAkmal-ub6cc]

​@@nayyarrashid4661 nah aldia definitely has the best quotes out of all souls game. "A lie will remain a lie."

[@liszt646]

​@@waspopticCURSE YOU BAYLEEEE

[@trevorp8124]

Igon: "BEHOLD, A TRUE DRAKE-WARRIOR" Me: (Already face-down in the dirt at half health)

[@joshuakim5240]

If only i had half as much confidence in myself as Igon does for me.

[@jstar3382]

AND I, IGON god I love having an NPC who just screams about how happy he is to have you with him

[@gjram8807]

Hail of Harpoons!!

[@CaptainPlyen]

That was honestly probably the most touching thing anyone in the game ever said about me. The sheer conviction in his voice is moving. I'd follow him over the Mohglester any day.

[@Wilson-qf9sg]

BAAAAAYYYLLLEEEEEE 💢💢💢💢

[@johnbakker2869]

I love how Shamen Village, with just 2 item descriptions, recontectualizes Marika's entire story and character. Phenomenal story telling.

[@sanield2782]

My favorite location in the entire game and there's not even an enemy in sight.

[@TheSergio1021]

Didn't expect tranquility

[@shlogo1119]

​@@sanield2782same I can't explain the feeling that washed over me when i entered that village and the music started playing. The vibes are impeccable

[@SIGNOR-G]

​​@@shlogo1119 but why the animals attack you? Literally every living being exept the small animals try to maim you.

[@Cheerbear06]

It has bugged me for a long time that one of the braids on the Marika statues is shorter than the other. Finding the Marika braid in the village finally made it make sense.

[@TheWinterfrost123]

I loved the change in tone of Messmer's intro dialogue for his fight, the trailer had it shown off as if he himself was ambitious or prideful. But when you go to fight him, he is... tired, depressed even, because he was abandoned by his Mother, and that in spite of his crusades against those who had been shorn of light, a tarnished, a person who lacked grace, was chosen Lord. Messmer sounds so lost and dejected when he says "Thou'rt Tarnished, it seemeth." The DLC has some of the best voice acting that I have ever heard. Easily my favorite cutscene from the DLC.

[@dustrose8101]

He sounds like a bored office worker when he says "those stripped of the grace of gold shall all meet death in the embrace of messmer's flame"

[@uglydude4691]

Speaking of the voice acting performances, shout out to Igon’s VA

[@SnakeEater776]

Honestly i imagine him off screen after you die turning to his statue and being like "mother... wtf is this bullshit, i killed all these without grace and become a monster for you and now you wanna marry one? Are you taking the piss?"

[@sanguinraven5672]

I think that the line in the trailer was said at the start of the crusade, when Messmer was still a fanatical follower of Marika - while when we fight him, he is just so insanely tired by the centuries of unending war and disillusioned in his mother's vision since she abandoned him for who knows how many centuries Oh, and his fight will never end, since Marika's dog ate the very concept of Death - can't exactly finish the genocide of Hornsent if they never truly die

[@b.m.4415]

I love how his last words are "fuck you mom"

[@marvinn6044]

Messmers eye is such an amazing little design trick. If you dont look closely, it's just a snakes eye. Makes sense, dude loves his snakes obviously. But during the cutscene you can kinda see there is more on the upper part of the slit, and then he opens it for a few frames and you see it was a symbol of marikas grace the entire time. Nobody does subtle design like this on the same level that FROM does. Another thing: You can see two of Placidusax' heads still attached to Bayles back when you fight him.

[@Kafziel17]

I thought that Placidusax lost his heads fighting Godfrey?

[@DallasPurdum]

My lorebrain exploded during that cutscene, like ooohhhhhhh.... Couldn't even react, died on that first phase 2 attack.

[@coadamolx0100]

@@Kafziel17 nope , he lost them when fighting bayle and also why bayle is fked up too

[@StereotypicalShea]

If you look closely at Messmer's eye, it is quite literally Marika's Rune.

[@winter_ghosth]

​@@coadamolx0100BAYYYYLE

[@romanpaulo8083]

Mohg's ending is even sadder when you realize that since he was born an omen, much like morgott, he never felt love from the beginning, so with Miquella's "power of love" he was easily swayed., his brother Morgott felt loved thru servitude with the erdtree, but both of our boys were never loved in return, only used, not really different from the real world.

[@spacepunch8338]

Godfrey seemed to love them, if him comforting Morgott as he dies is anything to go by. Might be why Marika banished him.

[@nightscout9979]

That depends on if Miquella made Mohg feel loved or if Miquella only made others love himself. Also, Morgott is noted as never being loved, so he didn't feel loved through servitude to the Erdtree.

[@Mohmar2010]

I think Godfrey never hated his children despite their curse

[@magicianman534]

​​​@@spacepunch8338 Marika "banished" Godfrey and his people (the Tarnished) as her plan B if the demigods failed to create a new age on their own after she broke the elden ring. In a way, you could say she actually placed a great deal of faith in Godfrey to carry out her wishes after she was gone. (She's the vessel of the elden ring, breaking it is the same thing as breaking herself.)

[@krishvids608]

@@Mohmar2010yeah also additionally when you consider Mohg’s pure blood knights seem like an order Godfrey would create I think it’s not too far fetched to assume Mohg also felt some form of love for his father. My guess is that Godfrey was against his kids being killed by Marika and imprisoning them in the sewers was a form of compromise. Godfrey likely still visited his kids in the sewers as well, which might be why Mohg was inspired to create the pure blood knights.

[@DarkHypernova]

The shamans having affinity to meld their bodies together makes Godrick's own affinity of grafting more logical giving he's descendant of a shaman. Maybe this also explains how Rykard melded with the Serpent that ate him, along with all the sacrifices.

[@coloidshelving5442]

that is an excellent observation!

[@Miner49er201]

A theory I’ve seen explored is that through comparison of the jars in the Land of Shadow to the Lands Between, Marika’s removal of the Rune of Death was to usher in a sort of reincarnation system for the Shamans - where the Land of Shadows only has Shamans forming the basis of jars, EVERYONE in the lands between can be used to fill jars, as shown by Alexander. So, the theory goes that through reincarnation, everyone in the lands between - including you as the tarnished, are of Shaman descent. And an extrapolation of why grafting is heretical under the golden order is due to it being an echo of shamans being wounded and stuffed into jars for the purposes of melding their flesh with others.

[@ocrgmsfyv8819]

Rykard was a son of Rennala and Radagon tho. Unless Radagon is a shaman too, I don't think so.

[@Irishman8778]

​​@@ocrgmsfyv8819Radagon is Marika though. Also judging by how the children of Radagon and Rennala are still considered demigods, one of them even being an empyrean, I think it still counts for Rykard having some traits of the shamans via Marika/Radagon.

[@darthplagueis13]

@@Irishman8778 Radagon is Marika, but it isn't entirely clear if he has always been Marika. I somewhat suspect that Radagon started out as his own person, maybe himself an empyrean or demi-god and an avatar of the Golden Order, who would only become one with Marika (maybe through her shaman flesh) at the behest of the Two Fingers who maybe were not content with how Marika had been ruling so far and wanted to be able to control her more directly. There's also the fact of him having red hair, which is commonly associated with the Fire Giants, so he might have partially been of giant origin. After all, we pretty much must assume that Radagon and Marika weren't in the same place all the time. I'm pretty sure the royalty of Lenydell would have noticed if their queen was suddenly missing for a few years as Radagon was busy banging the Carian Queen.

[@bluey1695]

Something I like about Melina being the younger sibling of Messmer is that they are essentially both used to burn down the blockage to their respective gods. Melina burns the impenetrable thorns to the erdtree and Messmers kindling burns the shadow tree blocking access to Miquella.

[@mladyeli]

Yesss I love this correlation, too!!

[@lostvarius]

Idk felt that was a bit lazy to reuse the same narrative device twice

[@dustinbowersock1042]

​@lostvarius the story is meant to mirror the main game. It's the 'shadow' land after all.

[@lostvarius]

@@dustinbowersock1042 true, but still prior footage suggested that at some point miquella would lift the veil over the land, sadly in game this never ended up happening

[@JayJayYUP]

@@lostvarius You could get around it by not having her die, but then it throws the entire story in a rut again (I guess)

[@theneef174]

"Without intent to cause harm" - Vaati "Sister, go nuke Radahn." - Miquella

[@atToebiscuit]

Miquella the Kind my ass!!

[@VaatiVidya]

okay maybe a little harm

[@-DA-ONE-]

Oof

[@AkiraFoxDoesntExist]

​@VaatiVidya you look at what became of Caelid and tell me that was only "a little harm"

[@ReaverofSouls7]

I agree, stripping people of their free will is, by its very definition, harmful.

[@paulosaab]

Did no one notice the room in the shadow keep, before you fight Messmer, where you can see some sort of "recovery hospital"? You can see jars that were opened with shamans on the bed that seem to have been in the middle of some sort of recovery...their flesh is pulled apart, almost as if they are trying to reverse the "Potting" process...almost as if Messmer was trying to save the Shamans...maybe under Marika's order?

[@Just_Kumoki]

That's so messed up and so heart breaking and now I need a hug...

[@portalmanHUN]

Yeah it seems they were experimenting with "un-jaring" the shamans but the project failed and the hospital is overrun.

[@concretemix]

Doubt it was a direct order from Marika, more like an attempt for Messmer to be loved by his mother by " saving " her people.

[@simonjohnson3424]

I saw that. Thought it was a Bloodborne reference (Research Hall)

[@Xenrths]

Marika is not kind enough to order Messmer to do that, it's mostly Messmer's idea

[@ScarecrowNonsense]

I think one can easily argue at this point that the interpretations of the games endings are now designed to be interpreted a bit differently in light of the DLC. The frenzied flame ending is still nihilistic chaos. The Omen Curse ending is our Tarnished assisting a possibly unwitting Dung Eater to deliver the Hornsent curse upon all of the Golden Order forever. The Death ending is an attempt to rectify Godwyn's fate and provide a place for him in the Golden Order. The Goldmask ending is attempting to perfect the current order by essentially using an imperfect version of what would be Miquellas order of unalloyed gold. Ranni's Ending in light of the DLC is a complete foil to Miquella's ending. A world whose God is far away and exerts little influence over the day to day lives of her people. A goddess with a willing cadre of loyal companions who sacrifice everything to see her world come to pass of their own free will. A lord consort (us) who chooses his fate and warrants that title with strength. Versus Miquellas compassionate lobotomized order of pure amd gentle control, his captive, brainwashed band who turn on eachother the moment he lets go and his unwilling consort.

[@AAAAAAAgggg]

@@ScarecrowNonsense im still thinking omen curse is about removal of death rune from elden ring. Without complete elden ring world tends to turn back to normal/primal. Its not about that old womans curse words.

[@justsomeotherguywithamusta6810]

Goldmask takes free will outta marika making her unemotional and just. He integrated the those who live in death into the order as he sees the folly of hunting the dead. Miquella's age of compassion is basicly madara's tsukoyomi. He'll charm everyone. Goldmask's ending remains the objectively best greater will ending. Ranni manipulates the tarnished, but we don't know how the Dark Moon order will treat people but based on the last cutscene it doesn't look good.

[@anotherkenlon]

Ranni's ending has always been the 'good' one - the DLC just makes it impossible to miss.

[@GideonRavenor712]

My thoughts, largely in agreement with yours, but my takes on them, including those which cannot become a thing, but are theorized: Frenzied Flame: Yea, total nihilistic chaos. You judge ALL are not worthy of this power so to cast it away entirely and destroy much of all that is in the process. Fell Curse: Yea, spread the Hornsent's Curse beyond merely Marika and instead upon ALL who exist. Goldmask: Remove the Fickleness of the Gods, and thus remove the flaws within the existing Golden Law by refining its principles. (Its actually different from Miquella's because this would be a change upon the rulers of the world, not upon the people at large, arguably) Duskborn: Give the Dead a true ruler, and make mortality the norm rather than cyclical immortality. Age of Starlight: The Gods are there, but removed, distanced, from the regular affairs of the people. Concerned more with cosmic affairs rather than earthly ones. As for ones we know of, but cannot make into reality: Age of Rot: Malenia never seeks this and thus it can never become a thing, but it's an age of "beautiful decay" I believe it's described. Of fleeting life, but graceful rebirth all shrouded in scarlet rot. Radahn, likely would have pursued a continuation of the Golden Law as was prior to the Shattering, with probably minimal alterations, though perhaps leaning more towards Godfrey's focus on strength being the order of the day as opposed to Radagon's. Morgot seeks no new age given what he knows, but he likely would be similar to Radahn. Mogh would seek his Age of Blood, and bringing the Formless Mother to prominence, but this ends with his charming by Miquella. Rykard's gone mad at the point we see him, but prior to his madness, he believed that divinity was not given, it was taken by the strong and that any means permissible. There was cut content of a potential Miquella ending, or "Age of Compassion" ending, where I figure we'd become his Lord-Consort in place of Radahn. It's described as an age where all things "graceful" and "not-so-graceful" would thrive equally, under Miquella's benevolent hand removing all need for conflict. (Read as charm everyone into not wanting to seek conflict)

[@Darthtanos]

@@justsomeotherguywithamusta6810 can there really be a greater will ending at this point since the greater will is... you know... gone?

[@RaytheonThunder]

I absolutely loved how much the DLC fleshed things out. Marikas origin story is genuinely incredibly tragic. The Hornsent prosecuted and genocided Marikas people for being berefit of the blessing/curse of the Crucible. And they did it in the most brutal way imaginable. In the trailer you can see Marika herself seems to have tooth whip scars in her hand, indicating that she herself experienced Hornsent abuse and torture. All of this reveals exacly why Marika truly despises Omens (The DLC also reveals that Omens are a curse from the Hornsent), or any creature possessing horns for the matter. And also how she handles death which stems from her trauma from losing everyone and everything in the past.

[@Onebadhombre]

Good catch on the teeth marks on her arm in the opening scene

[@endub6551]

People were dissapointed with the lack of outer god reveals (I definitely wanted to fight one lol), but in the place of that it felt like we really got to know and understand the main characters of Elden Ring's story and those revelations were incredible and felt extremely personal.

[@Just_Kumoki]

God, Godwyn's death had to be devastating... I mean, IT WAS but now I can understand the mindset of Marika going through it.

[@AccursedPaladin]

Seems we’ve been in a circle of grief all along

[@FebruaryGhost]

I love how it made Marika's actions so much more sympathetic. Not justifiable, not right, but sympathetic. She has become a much more complex character

[@crossbones116]

"Goodness, why did Marika do something so horrible to the Hornsent?" *A few hours later* "Oh. Yeah, that makes perfect sense now."

[@KingMerrDG]

*innard meat*

[@launcherx2044]

yeah that's what I woulda did

[@Kumoii]

Exactly how I felt when I found out. I was like ohhhh.. Yeah Messmer torch shit, torch it all! Just not the innocence 🤣

[@diveblock2058]

Ya know what 100% justified

[@mr.brightside2665]

And then her own fuckin kids were omen. How hard can it be to understand that you shouldn't punish people especially your own children for the actions of those you yourself executed and on top of it all she has the audacity to take the title of a God but yet are threatened by those so called lesser beings. The Greater Will merely used her trauma to allow it to influence her and follow what it says instead of giving her true enlightenment. Truly a God not worth worshipping

[@raiden8919]

Something to note: Miquella charms even those who would be loyal to his cause. Such as Leda, Freyja, and Dane. It makes me wonder if his supposed "Gentler World" is nothing more than a hollow utopia, where people live and die on Miquella's terms and not their own.

[@brycethorner]

Indeed a good fair few were charmed. But when you entered the realm of shadow, Miquellas charms on his prior victims were broken. Its the reason Ansbach realized how much he hated Miquella. His memories of him spilling Miquellas blood, returned to him. Even still, some Npcs like Leda and Freya, still look at Miquella with reverence because of their own reasons and stay with him despite knowing that they were charmed. They simply believe in Miquellas cause, I can only assume the enchantment doesn't make you feel any different if you were already on board with Miquella's plan to begin with.

[@ohiyoresident]

@@brycethornerI think the charm just makes you follow whatever Miquella wants you to. All the charmed NPCs had different alignments but never fought each other until the charm was broken. People like Ansbach hated Miquella for the awful things he did while others devoted like Leda worshipped him. All of them were charmed into being compassionate to others against their will. As soon as the charm broke Ansbach was back to hating Miquella and was right on board to helping you kill him, while Leda immediately distrusted all the others around her and started hunting them.

[@Doge-rv3vd]

Miquella's charm seems to be twofold: It makes the followers focus on their goal, and more importantly renders them more loyal to *each other*, not Miquella. Leda in particular is absolutely faithful regardless but immediately becomes suspicious once the charm breaks. That seems to be the key to his age: he makes the people he rules over more compassionate and unwilling to fight each other, regardless of what they want, and any who refuse to be embraced and embrace others are destroyed by the great lion he has for a lord. In his mind, it must be a perfect solution.

[@raiden8919]

You all bring up good points and I do think that I glossed over the fact that Leda was a crazy fanatic and likely needed the charm to keep her from killing the others. Something I wish would happen once he abandons his Great Rune: enemies in the Haligtree start to fight one another. After all, if Miquella charms everyone who would follow him to ensure cooperation and teamwork, who's to say that he didn't charm people in the Haligtree, or even his own twin sister?

[@CrowandTalbot]

I wonder if the "it would be his prison" means that to some extent Miquella's ability to charm comes from being charmed. If his wanting to bring a gentler age and to help people wasn't just a personality thing, if he is also sort of cursed into altruism. So shedding everything that originally made Miquella a person left only the drive to spread this cursed form of altruism. That without the important personal drives like the love represented by St Trina there's nothing left of Miquella to govern how to achieve a peaceful reign except this cursed charm. Malenia also can become a god, but in blooming into one she sheds all aspects of self. She is also cursed in such a way that forces godhood on her by rotting away anything that isn't the spread of rot. Just as she has an ambient rotting effect on the people that pledge themselves to her, I wonder if Miquella also can't turn the ambient effect of his charm off. Perhaps he even charmed his sister without realizing it. Though all of that that may be a bit too esoteric. Though if Marika was destined to being striped of her identifying features, grafted onto bits of other people so asto further bury her person, and imprisoned in a pot for others to have a saint; it might be a reoccurring theme that proximity to divinity requires and causes one to be reduced to a singular purpose lacking identity and personal motivations. Whipped into the Greater Will. And she and her children are doomed to struggle against a fated imprisonment because of their proximity to divinity. Godwyn and Mogh are hollowed out and reduced to living corpses. Rykard, Radahn, and Ranni all end up inside something other than their own bodies and this strips them of their recognizable features. Malenia is confirmed cursed with godhood, and it would make sense to suggest Miquella is also ultimately cursed with his godhood just in a way he doesn't yet know.

[@ninjafish6185]

A few things i've found very interesting; - St Trina being confirmed as an alter-ego/other self of Miquella, similar to Marika and Radagon's relationship, has led to more open confirmation of something that almost every known empyrean shares; Multiplicity. Malenia has her "Daughters" that rose out of the scarlet rot. Ranni is the only one we aren't sure about, but then again, she does have two faces, and that might not be unique to her being a spirit inhabiting a doll whenever we see her. - Miquella's curse, being permanently a child... might not just be physical. It's more than possible that it's a mental thing as well. That he still has the attitude and worldview of a child. That he can't see the horror inherent to his behavior. Even asides the potential ickyness of his plan with his brothers (which is basically double non-consensual incest), bringing peace by mind controlling everyone is kinda fucked up. But that's not something a child would necessarily realise, hm?

[@deldarel]

Radahn, Ranni and Reykard all don't have other parts of themselves, but they all have spirits that can return to another body (doll, Mohg, snake), they just can't split off. I think it's the eyes. Radahn has his golden eyes rather than Mohg's red eyes, Reykard was eaten whole including his eyes, and Ranni has one eye shut. I think she has her left eye in the doll's right socket. The difference seems that numens can divide their soul while half-numens can't, but they can still mend with their host matter and control it.

[@NoConsequenc3]

I'm of the opinion that he enchanted himself on accident

[@GideonRavenor712]

Ranni MAY have lost that when she lost her flesh in the Night of Black Knives, but through sorcerous preparation and the fact that her soul remained, she had the Marionette body prepped. But then again, there is also her Doll. Miquella though yea, most resembled Marika with the dual aspect, and I think it does lend a lot of credibility to the idea that Radagon effectively was his own entity who was able to be separate, then rejoined Marika later but still has his own agency even in a single form.

[@charlesatanasio]

Vaati speculates the shamen were all female at one point. I dont think that is strictly the case (Radagon proves that her race has male and female) but it is possible they produce both through copulation AND asexually. Regularly dividing into new beings when they dont copulate. That is consistent across Godwyn, Malania, and Marika AND would explain Ranni, AND plays in opposition to the theme of the frenzied flame of combineing. Markia and Her faction divide (both literally and figureatively) while the three fingers combine.

[@cilliancronin6327]

YES THIS IS THE FIRST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ACKNOWLEDGING THAT MIQUELLA MIGHT BE MORE COMPLEX THAN A BRAINWASHING MONSTER

[@VaatiVidya]

I hope you all enjoy this overview! Lots more to come. For now, time for me to give in to velvety sleep 🛌

[@lionmask3630]

under a minute baby

[@ididntaskverified3663]

You think you the fart, litch you the shit

[@zephyr6138]

Velvety sleep.. Trina lore???

[@slipstream5762]

Yessirrrrr that's what we've been waiting for

[@KeyT3ch]

Oh no, only Thiollier is allowed eternal slumber

[@manofsalt7211]

"And one day, we'll return together... ...To our home, bathed in rays of gold..." Is what went through my head when I first found the Shaman Village

[@Zythryl]

This is beautiful and I’m astounded nobody else is talking about it.

[@EA_Kar]

bro 🥲

[@Gale42]

That's probably still Leyndell, Godrick shouldn't be nowhere near old enough for his "home" to be the shaman village (not to mention the shaman being exclusively women)

[@manofsalt7211]

@@Gale42 I looked into cut content and yes, the full monologue makes it clear he's talking about Leyndell. But the fact that its left so open in the final version and him using grafting via his shaman blood makes it come off to me like he embraces what Marika herself outlawed, after her people were exploited for it. The Village may have been sort of a place of myth to him, like the Garden of Eden. Godrick might've wanted the golden lineage to return to it's place of origin, Marika's birthplace. But I think the problem with this entire theory lies more with the fact that there is no indication anyone knew about the land of shadow, let alone the village, besides the people Miquella wanted to get there. It would've made for a better goal than just becoming king of Leyndell for Godrick though, in my opinion

[@SuperCezo]

@@Gale42 Plus, Godrick is like that annoying fourth cousin who insists he's part of the family, makes no sense for him to know where Marika's home would be lol

[@lyleschlegel3184]

One of the most haunting moments in this game/clear indicators that Miquella the kind may be more villainous was finding his cross in the Coffin Fissure. “Here I Abandon My Love”. Genuinely chilling words to receive from the Lord of Kindness

[@eliwoodnguyen1505]

Yeah U cant speak of kindness and compassion without love Love is the 1st n most important ingredient to grow kindness n compassion

[@MezmoinMobz]

@@eliwoodnguyen1505 IDK about that. Love can drive you to do insane, maddening things. People murder easily for love, for not being loved, and for loving something else. Even being a compassionate person about things can do alot of evil things. You can be passionate about racism, famine, war, etc. Kindness would prolly be the hardest thing to contort to a evil issue. But is prolly still not inpenatrable but less likely then compassion, or love.

[@VyxelOP]

Yeah I find that super chilling as well. The more we learn of Miquella, the harder it becomes to see him in the original light he was painted as. Which also makes sense because when his charm was broken, we begin to see the extent at which his manipulation effected the world. It's possible most of what we heard about Miquella's character was obscured by his charms up until this DLC where he comes across far more manipulative and self-serving. Makes me rethink those dedicated to him, like was Malenia truly willing to go to the extent she did to end Radahn for Miquella's plan? Or was she herself charmed into going so far? I think Fromsoft did a stellar job implying both perspectives of Miquella's character being good and evil, leaving doubt to exist in regards to him and the characters around him. Really begins to muddy the water of how black and white Miquella's cause and the love held for him was. Top-tier story telling in that regard.

[@eliwoodnguyen1505]

Idk what yo trying to say here. I dont talk about 2 sides of a coin. I say cant grow kindness/compassion without love. U have to love sth to be kind to it

[@DrooledOn]

Considering that Miquella kept his vow to Radahn, even in his death after abandoning everything. I would think he would keep his vows to his allies. After the charm wore off they still have much faith in him, even hornsent who is betrayed by Leda.

[@RoyaltonDrummer922]

You missed that Melina uses the Minor Erdtree incantation when you summon her against Morgott. The same incantation that is Marika’s secret incantation

[@pohja4552]

How would she know it though. Is she a daughter or grandma?

[@pweaseadoptme5312]

​@@pohja4552 the flame that you get when you kill mesmer mentiones mesmers sister, that can only be Melina, besides that and the minor erdtree its possible she is the person lementing the genocide in the cinematic trailer that came out. Mesmer also has an outer god in his right eye while melinas left eye is gloam. Being in the lands of shadow would also explain why she is so against the frenzied flame and the golden order.

[@aspserpent]

@@pweaseadoptme5312 what a crime that these observations are buried under a random comment. This is some excellent insight, thanks for sharing.

[@CalciForm-lk2fo]

Melina's tree is dope tho, very large

[@FyerBear]

​@@aspserpent too bad he was wrong, Romina is the one in the trailer and gloam is golden

[@DarlingDreadful]

Shaman flesh melding easily with other flesh honestly explains a LOT: Why Marika and Radagon are a single being How Rykard was able to merge with the Great Serpent Why Outer Gods like the Outer God of Rot or the Formless Mother are easily capable of possessing demi-gods with their own physical essence And it may even explain why Godwyn’s corpse is so effed up Edit: Can’t believe I didn’t even think about Godrick’s grafting. Plus there’s Mohg administering his blood to his followers and why it physically effed up Miquella’s body in the cocoon

[@kahlzun]

Godwyns corpse below Stormveil is literally in a pit full of trash & bodies. I guess he's been absorbing biomass for a while..

[@912tone8]

And it explains Godrick's grafting

[@kahlzun]

@@912tone8 which then raises the question, are the grafted scions literally his kids?

[@ChromaticEagle]

@@kahlzunI wouldn’t be surprised if they were

[@MrWRamos]

​@@kahlzunhe's been cultivating mass. He's gone from a skinny Twink to the muscle bound freak you see in front of you

[@tyrannical4607]

"He wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying." Truly a masterfully poetic quote.

[@erikaufdenkamp7397]

I kept saying it to myself back when the trailer came out.

[@Brasswatchman]

Indeed.

[@snickers5056]

For real, it seemed like everyone kind of skipped over it in the trailer, but now it makes so much sense.

[@lordmpfree4564]

The shock on my face when I found out that line was used to describe Miquella and not Messmer like we thought

[@Bombom1300]

It's a fantastic line! Honestly feels like an intriguing take on Galadriel's "All shall love me and despair" from Lord of the Rings.

[@lomo1407]

"Why did Marika hate the Omens so much?" After watching the video: *Understandable, have a great day*

[@cernunnos8344]

Omens and hornsent are different things I believe

[@xtragedgnolf]

@@cernunnos8344 It would be pretty stupid if there wasn't some connection.

[@wakamoon1910]

its the horns which signifies a connection to the crucible which would also remind her of how her people were used to combine people in jars.

[@sanyang8614]

@@cernunnos8344 omen's horns represent the "primordial crucible, where all life was once blended together", which i think litterally means being blended in the jars

[@xinonuzumaki83]

@@wakamoon1910I think omens was a derogatory term created by Marika when referring to Hornsent people. Cuz who says “I’ve got a good omen” but you do hear “bad omen” way more

[@Arxa93]

Man how would have I loved some kind of special interaction in the final fight if you have completed Ranni's quest. Like, some sort of aid from her during phase 2 - her being summoned or you being given a buff with some kind of visual effect (maybe even an unique dialog). So it would have been a clash not only between Lords, but also with their own gods (or would-be gods) on their sides. I mean, even having the Dark Moon shine up in the sky during the fight like during Radahn's second phase would have been awesome.

[@younggod5230]

yes i think its actually an inexcusable oversight that there is no way to acknowledge the questline in the dlc whatsoever. like, im not saying fromsoft are bad or whatever, but its like almost as big an oversight as forgetting to put the erdtree in the game. like you said, even just a moon or something. IMO the perfect thing to have done wouldve been in the second phase, when radahn descents like a comet, just have ranni make a moon to block it. that would be a simple and elegant way to acknowledge the literal parallel between ranni, you and miquella and radahn. it also wouldnt make for such a large advantage that players who didnt do the questline would have it much harder. the comet descent is fairly easy to dodge. kinda sad. Eventhough it is clear that with every new thing they release, they improve leaps and bounds in terms of storytelling, they seem to be chained to only ever telling other characters stories, never yours as the player. especially in a game like elden ring that makes a point of giving you an array of options to choose from to reshape the order, none of those choices actually ever matter, except in a very specific instance. if you take the frenzied flame before melina burns herself, she will leave you, and later appear to hunt you. that is great! even if there functionally isnt any gameplay consequence - you can still level up, and teleport and so on - it still feels like a huge consequence for an action the player just took BEFORE an ending. please, we need more of that stuff in ER

[@PoisonSwampRS]

Can we all appreciate that our boy Radahn, after so many years spent admiring and emulating Godfrey, now resembles him uncannily in this final fight? Miquella, with his arms wrapped around Radahn, looks like Serosh clasping onto Godfrey. He's found the perfect cosplay.

[@Dracobyte]

Damn!

[@jozefbalvin2861]

he also has the vibe of the twin princes from dark souls 3

[@Forgottenmyname]

But this time the Miquella is the one in control.

[@californiansniper2133]

Radahn cosplay lore 🤣

[@axllow3914]

He even has some similar moves, like the earthquake stomp that he can perform now with his new feet.

[@3amshreddedcheese304]

Knowing Melina is not only directly Marika's daughter, but most likely the bastard duo with her elder brother makes her actions and make so much sense. She probably knows the exact extent that Marika suffered and seeing her mother essentially spiral into the habits of her tormentors and even abandon her older brother could have made her one of the most vengeful and wicked of the demi-gods, but instead she works to correct her mothers wrongs and try and carry on with something new.

[@actualteddybear891]

I'm glad that even though we didn't get more Melina in the dlc there were things that told us more about her.

[@mhead1117]

Still a fraud

[@VictorIV0310]

@@mhead1117?

[@Majoraspersona]

It may also explain her particular animosity towards the flame of frenzy. She has a rough lot, but she probably carries some pride for never falling to frenzy.

[@indrawigunachandra7372]

My theory is that both Messmer and Melina is the son of Midra, either with Nanaya or Merika (or maybe both are the same person)

[@TheWaluigiman1]

So, the reason Merika was so insanely cruel to those with horns was because they kidnapped her people, whipped them and then placed them in Jars. Then Marika gained godly power and took her revenge against them. It's cruel, but cruelty is a snake eating itself.

[@DavidReyes-mq6wp]

the omen we're still innocent regardless, they weren't the ones who kidnapped her people, they were just unfortunate enough to be born with horns

[@logansinclair7488]

​@@DavidReyes-mq6wp The Omens were innocent but you can't say you don't understand the trauma Marika had from the Hornsent.

[@ashleylongley1628]

@@logansinclair7488I mean I definitely understand but its still not cool

[@logansinclair7488]

@@ashleylongley1628 Def not cool but they got a better treatment than the Hornsent ig

[@alexthewolf8333]

​@@logansinclair7488you cannot rule the lands between out of your traumas. You are a god and you cannot be driven by traumas.

[@evernix7542]

I can't help but think that in the lands between the jars are not inspired in the Lands of Shadows , but a correction , not filled with torture and pain , but with honor , with warriors that gave their lifes for the cause they supported , this jars have the highest of honor and sainthood is that honor they earn or the peacefull treatment they get from the potentate , I think they were made in the image of what they should have been and never were originaly , and so the rol of the potentate is not the torturer who has to shake away thoughts of remorse , but a gentle soul , with soft hands that brings comfort and protection , it might be too hopefull but Alexander was what Marika hoped for her people , and the potentate (Dialos is the only one we know) who she wishes took care of them and how she wish they were treated , as a goddes , it wouldn't be weird to think she made it selfishly

[@ShadyAugur]

I'm saving this to refer to later. Great take.

[@evernix7542]

@@ShadyAugur it would be honor

[@Hauntedundead]

I really think it is more of a "punishment"; a way to try and cleanse people who have sinned by melding with the shamans. Mainly because we find most jars in gaols. What else should be put in gaols? Prisoners. Or they put the shamans in gaols to punish them for something, that the shamans are the prisoners and will "become saints" (become good essentially) by being punished.

[@MicahWarren-h3r]

@@Hauntedundead I think the first idea is right. The shaman with their unique ability to meld harmoniously with other flesh allows the hornsent to mix together a bunch of criminals in jars to create ‘saints’

[@free4fire]

I think the "betrayal" part might not actually imply that there was an alliance that was broken, I think the Hornsent simply saw it as their right to subjugate the Shamans and probably even deluted themselves into thinking that they were doing them a favor by helping them reach "divinity", so when (one of) those Shamans rebelled against their enslavement, the Hornsent saw it as a betrayal even though there was basically only a one sided alliance to break in place there.

[@AtticusKarpenter]

Yea in many cultures victim of sacrifice was seen not as a, well, victim, but as a chosen one who got sent to the gods, and resistance or retaliation was not expected (and wasn't conducted by most because they too shared such belief, but if someone decided to live and put a fight they seen as insane or betrayers of favor)

[@ardynamberglow3124]

That was my understanding of the implication as well.

[@PanBuchticka]

What exactly is this divinity? What was the goal of putting them in jars?

[@free4fire]

@@PanBuchticka Not sure but I assume it's something along the lines of hoping for them to mutate into growing as many horns as possible.

[@ardynamberglow3124]

@@PanBuchticka It's hard to say. Maybe they thought that there was some kind of enlightenment or godhood to being stuffed in a jar? Either way the implications are a bit unnerving.

[@derpymule7977]

I’m glad you touched on it at the end, but there’s a very good reason why there’s no “join Miquella” ending. The player character is endlessly malleable, but underneath it all has one intrinsic motivation: to become Lord. Whether that’s Elden Lord, Lord of Stars or Lord of Frenzied Flame is up to you, but that base motivation never changes. Unlike Marika, Ranni, or the Three Fingers, Miquella has already selected a Lord, and more than any of the others could not abide an “aspiring Lord of the old order”, and so in turn we, the Tarnished who would be Lord, cannot abide Miquella’s reign. As frustrating as it is on the surface, I think it’s a perfect thematic reflection of Elden Ring as a whole. You, like all the men, monsters and legends before you, can become as powerful as you like, can defeat every god that crosses your path and rule unchecked, but still always with limitations. Just as Marika’s and Miquella’s godhood was their prison, Lordship is yours, and it is inescapable.

[@xXNIDSXx]

I agree if but for one thing, I wanted a St Trina ending where you put the worlds undead to sleep. I think that would have been cool as a side ending ot the game. Whereas in this case I was slightly sad to see that meeting her and the finishing her 'quest' results in no change whatsoever. I guess she gives you a pretty flower to put on your head.

[@lostvarius]

@@xXNIDSXx A trina's ending would've been sick. I have to disagree with OP though, you don't become lord in ranni's ending. You do become her consort, but by doing do renounce lordship. I thought that was pretty obvious.

[@GabrielLopes-jj8rx]

@@lostvarius There's long been a debate about how being Elden Lord might mean the same as being consort to God (yes, with the capital G). In that case, we become Elden Lord by helping Ranni rise into godhood

[@lostvarius]

@@GabrielLopes-jj8rx That's where our interpretations differ. I believe Ranni also renounced godhood, to give an age whithout a god dictating people's lives.

[@VyxelOP]

You make a strong case for the Dung Eater ending lol.

[@LittleListy21]

no meme, I think the addition of the "recent items" tab was the single most important new feature to make the story more understandable. I really like the strives that Fromsoft took with this release to make storytelling a little more of a feature without shoving it in your face, still letting you explore and piece together the world on your own. but the recent items tab was such a huge game-changer. EVERY time i got a new crafting material or book or weapon or armor piece, I would press escape and immediately read its lore entry. so accessible and easy to do, to the point where I had a pretty good understanding of the different areas and the story going on in the background. they absolutely nailed it with this dlc.

[@ThedGrill]

Idk why but we tried to find the hightlighted Items for the dlc and they where never markt like the tutorial in the beginning showed. But I also read all the item descriptions myself this time. Just to come here and get them puzzled together infront of me :D

[@darrenmcfetridge3686]

@@ThedGrill there is an option in one of the menus to turn it on

[@yourlocalhuman3526]

i was doing the same but the lore was still inredibly barebones

[@pensluo747]

i agree completely and i wish so badly that every fromsoft game to date had this feature. it suits their storytelling style so so well and i can only imagine how much more engaging and immersive a first playthough of bloodborne/ds3/etc. wouldve been with a recent items tab (although the loading screens in those games served a similar purpose but weren't as effective)

[@kudzukid12]

Honestly one of my favorite features! Adds soooo much to the game with such a little change. I too would immediately read the entire description if all the new stuff I pick up

[@kingofbel6499]

Finding Marika's birthplace was the saddest moment in this game for me. That small location taught me more about Marika than every other piece of lore.

[@dmonsterlove]

Where can I find it

[@aftertone3146]

@@dmonsterlove in the shadowkeep, to the right of the boss gate of Commander Gaius, perform the O Mother emote in front of Marika's statue

[@dmonsterlove]

@@aftertone3146 already found it

[@VictorIV0310]

When you think about it, it makes a twisted amount of sense as to there seems to be so many spirits of people and creatures in the Land of Shadow and why Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring; It's to prevent anyone in the Land of Shadow from dying and thus, Messmer's crusade never ends. Marika hates the Hornsent so much that she didn't simply want them to die, she wanted them to suffer for all eternity, turning the Land of Shadow, their own homeland, into hell where the crusaders can brutalize, scorch and impale its denizens even when they've long passed into nothing but spirits, all the while Messmer's Shadow Keep looms over the land like Barad-dûr from Lord of the Rings and the Scadutree stands tall and mighty as the Erdtree's shadow, a constant reminder that the Hornsent are condemned to an eternity of brutality under Messmer's rule without even the benefit of an afterlife. Since every hell needs a devil, Marika chose her son Messmer to fulfill that role. On a related note, the design of the furnace golems seems to be a sort of twisted karmic retribution towards the Hornsent approved by Messmer and Marika. The shamans were mutilated, then stuffed into jars to become saints by the Hornsent so in response, Marika orders her son Messmer to wage a brutal, genocidal war against the Land of Shadow with his most prominent war machine being the massive furnace golems where Hornsent themselves are stuffed inside to serve as fuel for the machine as it marches over the land as an instrument of terror, destruction and mockery with its horned mask of the fell god of fire the Hornsent so feared.

[@diegoidepersia]

@@fili0938 it says marika ordered it on his rememberance, as well as several items related to his forces

[@KhreamedKhorne]

​@@fili0938I don't remember which item said it but it is definitely true that Marika orchestrated it

[@Full_of_Tarkus]

​@@fili0938 simp

[@tonyspizza6606]

I dont know dude, i think Marika send Messmer on the crusade to kill the Hornsent but also to keep Mesmer in there also, to get 2 people in. Marika didnt like golden order and Mesmer would have killed here if he foudn that out.

[@ValtheJean]

I really like your thinking here. I may just have to take that into my own headcanon as well. Death not being good enough, but eternal, everlasting suffering. I always just assumed Marika abandoned Mesmer because she wanted to keep her dirty secret hidden, but this interpretation just works on so many levels.

[@snowie2476]

Maybe if Radahn was charmed by Miquella, his holding back the stars for Ranni's fate would actually serve as a final act of defiance to Miquella. Tying his death to Ranni's godhood means that Miquella couldn't go through with his plan without opening the path for his only other "competitor" to bring in her Age of Stars.

[@Donky_Bonk]

Could also be that he held back the stars to halt his own fate of becoming Miquella's consort. Fate being held back may have been what prevented Miquella from completing his objectives as well.

[@jblay4415]

You guys are forgetting that Miquella also needed to and did abandon his "Fate" to become a god. Maybe Rahdan was hold back Miquella's fate in order for him to do what he wanted. Rahdan could also have been holding back Ranni's fate so that she couldn't interfere with Miquella's plan until it was ready, since she was a competiting empyrean

[@DakkaBert]

I think radahn holding back the stars was partly in ward off miquella's plans, which is why he sent Malenia to kill him.

[@DragonGunzDorian]

I still subscribe to the theory that radahn held back the stars purely to save sellia. As stated by the sword monument near redmane castle.

[@donovan4222]

@@snowie2476 I think that Radahn with his physical body was just too strong for Miquellas charm to work on him. So Miquella charmed someone who was more easily manipulated like Mohg and used his body, then had Malenia kill Radahn so he could ultimately succeed by charming his soul in Mohgs body.

[@VaatiVidya]

Shoutout to @mispap1 for blessing us with these awe-inspiring DLC cinematics

[@dank-bongripper9836]

Genuinely interested in your take about Midra and Nanaya

[@Anton2046gfkn]

Is @mispap1 your video editor?

[@joelhodoborgas]

ill check them out

[@VaatiVidya]

@@Anton2046gfkn Yes - Mispap1 is my project partner for pretty much everything these days. Couldn't do it without them

[@Anton2046gfkn]

@@VaatiVidya Mispap1 is amazing. I'm grateful you have a good partner. What do you think about all the vaati video editor jokes though ever since a fake one popped up with the leaks?

[@MehnixIsThatGuy]

Love that this basically means the player character is seeing someone who's trying to create a new, better future (albiet through very questionable means) and going "Yea nah mate i'm in charge here. Bugger off."

[@jstar3382]

It makes a lot of sense why the ancestral shamans were left alone now. Most other societies in the lands between got atomized, but the golden order leaves them alone. Marika was reminded too much of her people

[@ender72a75]

I wonder if it was either from trauma or from seeing something that reminded her of home but without all the horrible shit

[@datboi8727]

Thats such a good catch! The Nox, the ancient dragons, the Giants and even the Carians (to an extent) were subject to a purge. Yet the shamanistic society of the Ancestors remain.

[@desuordie4856]

Not really. Iirc the Nox were punished by GW directly. Not Marika. The dragons attacked the Erdtree and eventually they made peace. Liurnia and Limgrave were wars of subjugation and Liurnia has a fair bit of independence after the war. The only on3s she sought to wipe out were the Giants and I believe it's due to the Fell God being one of the few threats to the erdtree. Fire seems to be their greatest weakness. I'm pretty sure every religious group is tolerated in GO as long as you aren't a FF, Fell giant worshipper or an Omen

[@johnwaters1768]

@@desuordie4856 true that the giants are the only ones that marika sought to wipe out entirely, but all of the other civilizations, the golden order only stopped warring with them once they assimilated them. Golden order fundamentalism and "all things can be conjoined" ive always seen as cope and hidden speak for "well we wanted to wipe them out but we couldnt and we brought their practices that we could tolerate into our order. Even with that being the case, the shamans remain both ungenocided AND unassimilated with the golden order so i think what the original comment said is true. Possibly they reminded her too much of where she came from and she felt for them, or maybe they just never actually did present any sort of threat to the golden order so they got to chilll.

[@AltFromTheLimbo]

@@desuordie4856 " Heresy is not native to this world. It is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined "

[@pieguy212341]

Isn’t it crazy that love was such a big part of Miquella’s being that when discarded, it became a whole separate entity. Miquella really was nothing but pure ambition and aspirations by the end

[@delvan2191]

literally griffith lol

[@Fontenelle2307]

The incarnation of desire

[@BirdMoose]

I think his main title being "Miquella the Kind" is so interesting because within the lore, the majority of his kindness is through the form of Saint Trina. There are some notes about things like his gift exchange and desire to cure Malenia, but in retrospect those likely only existed to further his accession into godhood. So his kindness was simply a front from which he manipulated those around him. Honestly with that level of arrogance and a very literal god complex I think his age might have been the cruelest ending aside from Frenzy if it were to come true, "nothing is more terrifying".

[@killerbee1974]

Embolden by the flames of Ambition.

[@dokuujin1851]

The Frenzied Flame ending isn't really "cruel" imo. The whole idea of that ending is to purge everything in order to, ultimately, be free of the erdtree. I mean, yeah, it kills... everything, and there's implications of suffering, but it's a universal reset button. Think, like... The Halo Array in Halo. Kill everything, so that something else can survive eventually. Edit: From the wiki: ""As explained by the Three Fingers through Hyetta at the end of her quest, this ending sees the Tarnished take up the mantle of the Lord of Chaos, and tasked with burning the world, along with the mistakes of the Greater Will - all existing sin, torment, fracture, and curse - to unite everything and everyone much like the crucible which existed before time."" All things considered, and is usually the case with FromSoftware... The ending that sounds the most evil on the surface is, ultimately, probably one of the better outcomes.

[@usamimi-no-majo]

What I really love about Metyr's design is how her tail fingers form a spiral, and then the arc which cradles the microcosm. If Metyr was the first child of the Greater Will to reach the Lands, is she the origin of all the imagery which equates spirals with divinity and evolution? Also the irony that she's meant to "guide", but is literally a living symbol of lies(crossed fingers, behind her back).

[@nathanlaleff4273]

Also, if she was specifically the FIRST of the Greater Will's messengers to arrive, that might be both why and when she became damaged. Being launched millions of miles to land in an unknown place would be a kind of exceptional event to arrive unharmed afterwards. If she was damaged on arrival then it could both explain how the others like Astel and the Elden Beast were fine whilst there are many other damaged Astels. She could've acted as a remote relay producer(the two fingers) and whenever another messenger arrived they'd send info about what kind of damage they had recieved back to the Greater Will so next time they'd be able to adapt to it. The Two intact Astells, Falling Star Beasts, as well as the Elden Beast are just the most recent successes to arrive.(Though I can't remember if the Falling Star Beasts are actually sent by the Greater Will or if they are unrelated.)

[@jachobbehnke3987]

Damn. Sick take.

[@leviadragon99]

@@nathanlaleff4273 if memory serves, the Astel/fallingstar beast family are unrelated to any higher power, the equivalent of intergalactic pest species that are clearly well-adapted to crash-land, given that one is named for it.

[@22demitria]

I think spirals are a representation of the crucible because It's the form of a DNA in biology terms

[@novalytyxp]

I remember seeing a video breaking down snakes and spirals in Elden Ring, among some color theory. Would love to see how that all ties together

[@rieJW]

I find it heartening to know that despite being the one to kill his lord, Ansbach still forgives us and even saw in us the potential that we could go further than anyone could have as Elden Lord

[@PKmaster12]

The Shaman Village has become one of my favorite locations in any Fromsoft game. Walking in to hear that iconic Marika harp had me freeze up before picking up the minor erdtree incantation and just sitting there for several minutes after reading its description. (And then going on to repeat that process when I found the Golden Braid 😭)

[@mt2r-music]

Wait the golden what? Is there another item in the village?

[@ettu357]

@@mt2r-music Golden Braid. Its basically the +3 holy damage negation talisman. Saved my ass from getting oneshot by the final boss' insane AOE. Its in a dead tree in the village

[@mt2r-music]

@@ettu357 thanks! I need to go back to take a look at it.

[@Juiceman18036]

Literally, it was so peaceful I sat my character down and admired the view

[@zekaizerguy1181]

I was wondering what Erdtree-aera tree sentinels were doing there. I knew it was an important location when I entered and found no enemies. Then the harp. That might have been the most memorable moment of my original playthrough.

[@Soluswithyou]

Marika before SotE: Crazy controlling anarchist. Marika after SotE: Traumatized farm girl.

[@Brasswatchman]

Who is a crazy controlling monarchist turned anarchist.

[@arcanefire7511]

"Controlling anarchist" lmao

[@andrei-cezarbleaje5519]

Like Ymir from aot .

[@Arany-Csillag]

​@@arcanefire7511Yeah I'm not an expert but that's literally an oxymoron right? Anarchy is about destroying control lol

[@Soluswithyou]

@@arcanefire7511 It's an oxymoron, but it works in Marika's case. She wants chaos and freedom, but she wants it in a way where she is still on top. All the power and none of the responsibility.

[@sonokawaray]

Makes one wonder if Jerren would still go through with the Radahn Festival if someone told him mercy-killing his old general meant the big guy would just be revived as another demigod's brainwashed lackey.

[@shadowdahuman]

Freya sees no issue with is "as long as her General can see battle again" (paraphrasing)

[@sonokawaray]

@shadowdahuman I feel like it would be a divisive development among the rest of the Redmane forces, to say the least. And sure, to Freya it probably sounds good, but I think she already forgot about Miquella's "peace and love" endgame, as well as what happened to Godfrey when he ran out of things to conquer for Marika. Miquella may not be so cruel as to exile Radahn, but still, there *will* come a time when the fighting is over. When that time comes, will Miquella then honor Radahn's wish back when he had a brain to let him die in battle, or just shut him down like a Fazbear animatronic and keep him in storage? That much is uncertain, far as I know.

[@FjuuryEsq]

Interestingly, if you follow Sellen's questline and decide to defend her against Jerren, you will get the text "Bloody Finger slain". This was always a very weird detail, but makes a whole lot more sense now: Jerren is actually in service to Mohg. Bringing Champions over to kill Radahn in 'glorious' battle..

[@teunvanderveen6477]

Doesnt Freya say that Old Jerren wouldnt approve but she sees no problem because Radahn likes war?

[@HendryAnwar-e9e]

Miquella thanked him as part of champion of the festival

[@emmapeachy03]

I would also like to point some cool details out ! Messmer's boss song is a variation of Radagon's boss song (another way to confirm they both have ties). Rellana's boss song is a variation of Renalla's boss song too. (showing their link to each other). Midra's boss song is a variation of the sad song the merchants play in the base game. (showing the connection of the frenzied flame). Another i recently noticed listening to her song is Romina's boss song is a variation of Malenia's boss song. (showing the links between them and the rot). There is probably more maybe that I haven't noticed yet but the next time your fighting those bosses or listening to the dlc playlist, listen out for the variations !

[@axrye800]

What about Promised Consort Radahn and Starscourge Radahn? I believe the music heard during the Starscourge fight is pretty much what you hear during the Promised Consort fight. Might be wrong, been a good while since I fought the General haha.

[@emmapeachy03]

@@axrye800 genuinly I hadn't noticed but I wanna see if promiced consort radahn is a variation of radahn's boss song. Maybe it is !

[@mamasteakmilk]

I just want to point out that ”Shaman Village” is kind of a funky translation. The original Japanese one is called 巫女の村. "Miko" being a shinto shrine maiden. Mikos are women exclusively, and they are from the shinto religion. They are women who assist in the work of priesthood. So this might be an important hint as to what their "divine role" is in the context of the game. Since they are technically "assisting" by becoming jars.

[@DisemboweII]

Which makes sense because all of those "heart / jar enemies" you find have obviously female features on the front.

[@thanosmat]

It is not that funky. Both deal with spirtis, I don't know what word they would be used instead. And the culture is pretty influenced by European societies. I think they did think about druids or shamans in the conception, and the word used in japanese was the most similar in japanese

[@Zolt95]

I don't speak Japanese but do speak Chinese so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe 巫女 can also refer to shamanic women in certain contexts of old Japanese history involving the Emishi or Ainu before Shinto was heavily influenced by Buddhism.

[@mamasteakmilk]

@@thanosmat I think the issue lies in the ambiguity of the name "Shaman". At 9:37 Vaati proposes the possibility of the village being a matriarchal society, but then states that this is speculation. In this case, there is no need to speculate. It is explicitly stated in Japanese. 巫女 leaves no room for interpretation, due to the nature of how kanji works. The "shamans" are exclusively women in this case.

[@guy9183]

Yeah and there is confusion with the jar shaman who are NOT the same as the shaman miko

[@m0noxyd871]

regarding the hornsent and Marika's betrayal i believe it's actually the simplest answer. Marika was a shaman, shamans were used as innards for the jars to create saints, Marika managed to escape her fate, thus to the hornsent it is seen as a betrayal

[@ВладимирПетров-д1м]

Can these saints actually just be building material for the Erdtree in the making? We see a lot of empty jars near minor erdtrees and the jars themselves seem to seek for more corpses to mend with

[@BackwardsPancake]

@@ВладимирПетров-д1м It seems likely. The methods vary, but the connecting thread seems to be that, in order to ascend towards divinity in this universe, you need to amalgamate life force. In the base game, people being buried in the roots of the erdtree is all the rage. The Haligtree needed to be watered with blood. The hornsent's spiral tower seems to have bodies integrated into the architecture, there are trees with bodies inside, and the gate of divinity on top of that tower is literally formed from bodies. The crucible that started it all was explicitly stated to be a place where all life was mixed together. The primeval sorcerers have a whole thing with merging people together to create cores of stars. Etc.

[@luisalejandro3998]

Nah. Gotta be something else. They call her a "strumpet" and the trailer talks about some affair from which gold arose.

[@Wylkus42]

I wonder if Marika married the Lord of the Hornsent who created the gates of divinity in the same way as the jars but Marika slew him and ascended to godhood in his place

[@m0noxyd871]

@@Wylkus42 that's definitely a possibility

[@Y0Noah0]

Messmer talks as if he's reciting someone else's words, "in the embrace of messmers flame" is obviously in the 3rd person, but also his tone sounds as if its rehearsed almost. That changes though once he says his lines when entering his second phase, almost as if abandoning his mothers orders and finally speaking/thinking for himself.

[@beckstheimpatient4135]

And then he dies... having barely lived as himself a measly few minutes. But then again, that snake was always a force of destruction, and one Messmer himself seemed to not be able to control. A cursed child, used as a tool and discarded by the mother he worshipped.

[@donovan4222]

yeah it’s like he’s just repeating what Marika told him to say

[@Malevolence17]

I think it's just his slogan, it's repeated by others who serve him as well.

[@Meuduso1]

The one thing that tripped me up so fucking much was finding *yet another god damn fish face* of Godwyn. Seriously, his story is so incredibly untold. He seems to be just a plot device, the literal Golden Child that Marika always wanted and finally got, not war-crazed like Radahn, no Empyrean stuff like Ranni or Miquella, no rot, no fire or snake or fire-snake of any kind, no omen curse, just an (apparently) swell and healthy guy. And then he was murked by the Black-Knives (on Ranni's order) and became this tool to usher in the Age of the Duskborn. Elden Ring not getting another DLC as per FromSoft is frustrating in so far that not only would it offer *another* batch of insane content but now that the first one has answered so many questions, a second one could be exploring more alternatives, like how the different endings of the original did.

[@cilliancronin6327]

Where's the one in the DLC? Is it by the divine beast that uses deathblight?

[@TeMana]

@@cilliancronin6327 Catacombs dungeons

[@starliaghtsz8400]

The only purpose of the golden child of Marika is being a plot device to drive her into anguish enough to shatter the elden ring, he has no real character otherwise, "just a normal swell guy" Doesn't make a good character

[@calebnelson6796]

"You're the chosen elden lord of a different age, so, of course you would refuse to be embraced" is a pretty Stellar ending line.

[@caldevens]

There's only room for one God. And one Lord...

[@shy221]

Only Ranni can embrace my elden ass

[@MrFallenone]

It is only logical you put down the last remaining old order parasite threatening your new rule.

[@kamamara2567]

Love that line we’re the Elden lord we don’t submit to anyone other than Ranni 🔥

[@arthurlopes2160]

@@caldevensno gods…. ONLY MAN

[@eliofastora]

I'm speculating that Radahn arrested the movement of stars and endured the Scarlet Rot because he didn't want to take part of his vow as a King Consort.

[@kahlebhowarth-jennings9688]

I'm somewhat on the same side of this theory but mine goes a little deeper, I don't think he ever actually made the vow, I think miquella simply imposed his will on radahn, even the cutscene implies radahn doesn't have a choice in the matter, it wasn't a request but a demand imo.

[@trigonosefal2141]

Just a question Miquella's a guy or a girl ? I'm confused 😅

[@ETBrooD]

@@trigonosefal2141 Miquella is male.

[@ETBrooD]

@@kahlebhowarth-jennings9688 It's a bit mor complicated. Radahn has made a vow together with Miquella (and presumably also Malenia), but then his actions proved he had other intentions. There are a few theories on his motives. My personal theory is that he made a vow, but it was a lie. I think he was scheming.

[@eliofastora]

@@trigonosefal2141 Miquella is a guy. He's always addressed as "he" in the DLC.

[@pinksnake7584]

If the Hornsent worshipped the Crucible, then the melding of people inside jars was probably seen as one way to reach divinity because the Crucible was the source of all life, melded together.

[@Denny_Boi]

One of the spirits near the Bonny Village says as much. Something along the lines that the shaman's will be purified or made divine once they get jarred.

[@CheckUnderYou]

This.

[@donovan4222]

Yeah they clearly thought that by brutally turning those shamans into jar soup they were doing some kind of divine ritual

[@dylanboczar999]

Oooh this ties a lot together for me, great comment!

[@GideonRavenor712]

Yes, though even by their standards this method was seen as a punishment (Given what we see in Belurat Gaol), a means of attempting to force divinity from materials they didn't otherwise desire.

[@Moomoomaniac]

What I really like about this DLC is that a lot of us were hoping to find Miquella in hopes of finding a new ending, one that entails a better, gentler age. But we learned that there is nothing sacred in the golden lineage and everything that was left in their wake. The only one who can usher in the ideal new age is you.

[@Segriel]

To me, Marika betraying the hornsent seems less like a falling out between equals, and more like a slaveowner talking about a rebelling slave, trying to make themselves look like the victim. The whips also evoke that imagery.

[@sjasogun]

The problem is that it's Leda saying those words, quoted apparently from Miquella. I think it's likelier that the 'seduction' involved Marika gaining power from Metyr and the Elden Beast, and used it to either ingratiate herself to the Hornsent to steal their secret rite, or to present herself as the potential god they've been trying to create for so long, only to immediately turn on them the moment she ascended. Either scenario would work as a betrayal even from outside of the Hornsent's perspective.

[@ajohnson7860]

I mean, the game also refers to an "original sin" committed by Marika, and the braid description implies she had something to confess to the Grandmother. The massacre of the hornsent itself doesn't seem like it would qualify, there's no indication that the genocide of the giants was a sin or that anyone felt any guilt about it. Some sort of deal was struck, and the details were something that Marika found uniquely shameful.

[@A_Black_Sheep94]

We don't exactly know what the Shamans were up to either though. Remember Marika was messing around with the broken flawed fingers so who knows.

[@arditlika9388]

I think she married their Lord and killed them before going genocidal, but ultimately it doesn't matter. Ascending into Godhood means you found a husband in Elden Ring. Specifically, that husband needs to be the Lord.

[@anonisnoone6125]

@@arditlika9388 I don't think she needed a lord to ascend to godhood. She only decided to marry Godfrey cos she needed a lord to hold back the greater will's influence a bit.

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

I love how Messmer says "In the embrace of Messmer's flame." He sounds like he's just so fed up and tired with doing this thankless duty. Mind also that it intentianally sounds like he's just reading of a script. Compare it with his other lines and they are much more filled with emotion.

[@ratenthusiast4000]

I had the same thought exactly! Such a good va

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

@@ratenthusiast4000 Very well indeed.

[@rubenotero7100]

Immediate Messmer autism headcanon

[@crogsmash1611]

I heard it for like 5 hours straight day one lol

[@Tulip_bip]

I love how casual he sounds in phase 1, it's like he's genuinely curious about why you're here, and then when he kills you he's disappointed

[@G102Y5568]

What I'm interested in most is what the Divine Gate does. From what I could make of what Vaati said, Marika was instructed by the Fingers to build a Divine Gate out of a mountain of corpses, which she did using the Hornsent that tortured her people. She then went through the same process as Miquella in order to become a God and split the world into Light and Shadow. Becoming a God essentially makes one lose their humanity and serves as an eternal prison that eventually corrupts you.

[@raymondcaswell5622]

Elden Ring II.....too many plot holes I thought.

[@BackwardsPancake]

I don't know if there is a real solid answer to this. There's plenty of room for speculation, though. What stands out to me (aside from the fact that it's literally made of corpses) is the fact that the inside open space seems to be in the shape of Marika's rune - Which, in turn, is sort of shaped like Metyr's appendage which holds the "microcosm" used to commune with the greater will (But that may be a reach). So perhaps it enables people to momentarily commune with the greater will for real, and that enlightenment elevates them to godhood. Or, if the greater will really is gone for good, perhaps it simply funnels power from the space where it existed into a single person, thereby ascending them. Since the shape of the rune could also be interpreted as a funnel. Perhaps this process requires a viable candidate - An empyrean chosen by the fingers. But, then again, if the fingers have been broken since forever, maybe this is a lie, told to obscure the fact that in truth, anyone could do it.

[@rogerthat9230]

Bet you next dlc has you go through the divine gate and fight other gods

[@darschpugs4690]

@@rogerthat9230 Fromsoftware confirm ed there are currently no plans for further DLC or even and Elden RIng 2, they are treating it like DarkSouls 3 and Bloodborne.

[@DakkaBert]

which was mistaken guidance from the fingers, who had already long been abandoned by the greater will as a failed experiment... sheesh, its like everything in the lands between was just growing forgotten at the back of the greater will's fridge reminds me of the joke that everything that happens in hollow knight happens under your couch

[@arara7713]

Really liked that you've encouraged us to look for other answers and people's visions about all of this. Glad to see you haven't abandoned your doubt and vacillation

[@DolanDarker]

Beating Consort Radahn on 400th attempt? I wish it was only 400

[@mestiez1532]

you’re a duck

[@НикитаЧеркасов-ю3е]

The slop thickens...

[@kryppo4245]

Holy shit it’s slop live

[@AJaydedArtist]

Currently up to 130 and counting. Please make it stop 😂😂

[@weaponxcable]

I’m pretty sure half the hours I spent in this DLC was fighting that goddamn boss.

[@MoeHasubandoAbsolver]

Gaius being "cursed from birth" refers to him being an Albinauric, mentioned in his leg armor. He's not anybody's brother in a literal sense.

[@Taliesin_]

The Albinaurics got such a raw deal. The alchemy of their creation stolen from the buried Nox, birthed to be expendable troops in Marika's wars against the Hornsent and the Carians. And then utterly abandoned when they were no longer useful, rounded up to be tortured by Rykard or hunted down by vengeful mages. Even the ones who sought out salvation from Miquella never made it to the Haligtree. The only person who took them in, it seems, was Mogh.

[@Warsm1th12]

@@Taliesin_theres always at least one group in Fromsoft games that get completely screwed over at nearly every turn

[@sHmAaa]

@@Warsm1th12 In real life too.

[@snickers5056]

@@Taliesin_yeah, Mogh’s palace was their safe haven Until they got murdered a thousand times over by some idiot with a Sacred Relic Sword

[@gushdebush5016]

He was talking about Messmer being Radahn's older brother. Not Gaius

[@TheClassics100]

The revelations about Marika and the Shaman Village are so tragic, but beautiful. And it explains a TON of her intentions and rebellion against the Greater Will in the base game. Amazing storytelling

[@SIGNOR-G]

I still dont understand how she could rebell in the first place.

[@UnholyWrath3277]

​@@SIGNOR-G she was her own being. She was a chosen representative not a puppet directly on a string.

[@your_neko]

@@SIGNOR-G Marika made sure that the Golden Order won't be restored after the Shattering. Sent away the Tarnished and Godfrey, to make them stronger while the Lands Between lived in a relatively peaceful era of Radagon; locked the Blacksmith in the Roundtable, and gave him a task to create a God-slaying weapon for the Tarnished. prepared the resurrection of the Tarnished; created Melina to guide one champion, who can be trusted to slay God, the Elden Beast. And it worked. No mind control required. The plan looks unstable, but the sealing of Destined Death removes the luck factor from this equation.

[@SIGNOR-G]

@@UnholyWrath3277 ah this one point is what i wanted to know. With all this stuff about the fingers controlling destiny i was getting confused. Of course the only actor that doesnt have to follow the script is the strongest one.

[@Boamere]

@@your_neko Hence why I feel so sorry for her, clearly she discovered she was being used by the greater will and/or she felt great regret for what her order had done Do you think she assisted ranni with the night of the black knives?

[@gentlemanlarryjones]

Finally able to watch this now that I’m done the DLC. So glad to see you breaking down the DLC like this and I’m looking forward to more of your stuff.

[@blackmonish]

I just noticed something... the place likely with the greatest diversity of flowers and plants is the village of the jars. I always assumed that either the potentates or the jars themselves had planted them. But now I'm wondering if Queen Marika didn't cultivate such a rich portion of flora, in order to grant the jars a small semblance of peace from her home. That connection is thread bare at best, and the flowers don't even look like that field- but it's just an idea I had.

[@BackwardsPancake]

The real hook with the flowers in the shaman village is that they seem to be the same ones that the festival participants in the Windmill Village (in base game northern Altus) wear. Possibly, that old festival is a tradition from Marika's old home, and that's why it's "tolerated" (As the festive grease description puts it). Perhaps it's even some sort of retelling (or even continuation) of what the hornsent did with the shamans, given that the festival garb descriptions note that young maidens are the centerpiece, and everyone seems to be wielding various cutting implements.

[@blackmonish]

Dude... that's a pretty solid connection. We know the Godskin Apostles have something to do with all that. That gives a VERY loose idea, but I like the idea you had about it having connections, I wonder if the Gloam Eyed Queen, since she was an enemy of her, would use that ritual, almost as a mockery of Marika (assuming she was privy to such information, but that's a BIG assumption). At first I shot my idea down, because they are so close to the capital, but then I thought, "Uh yeah... and so is a damn godskinner next to the windmill..." that's not a left over festival from the good ol' days- those trick-or-treaters from hell moved in recently. Thank you for your input man- that got my brain juices flowing. May be a silly idea on my part, but it's fun to think about. I would have never made that connection about the festival flowers. Good eye!

[@Shmethan]

​@@blackmonishi wish i had a better sense of how the dividing of scadu altus from the altus plateu worked. Cuz that would have to do with how these things were split apart from each other. Is the shadow realm just the giant missing chunk between all the continents in the base game?

[@IronChief13]

Ok that's my new headcanon

[@superlo3857]

​@BackwardsPancake the inhabitants of dominula dance around stakes adorned with flowers, if they are recounting anything they probably recounting messmer mass impaling, as if they are dancing around their enemies impaled corpse.

[@beckstheimpatient4135]

When I first played the game I said 'There's a lot of DNA imagery here, particularly in Placidusax'. There was something to me that, alongside the strong theme of uncontrolled evolution, spoke of DNA. With SO many spirals now being shown, along with Ordovis, Siluria and Devonia ALL being named after great evolutionary epochs, then it makes perfect sense now: One of the themes is about the futility of trying to guide evolution, to control it, to force it. Neither Marika's suppression of evolution nor the Hornsent's forced sainthood worked. The Crucible of Life just IS.

[@absolutefocus2749]

how did Marika supress evolution? By being spiteful against the omen and enslaving the giants and other species? Like I fail to see how this is "supressing evolution".

[@giantmidget4867]

@@absolutefocus2749 Spiteful is an understatement. Anything bearing the signs of the crucible was trampled. The omens thrown to the sewers and culled anywhere else they were found, the misbegotten enslaved. In the same way the Hornsent tried to invoke that evolution of pieces from the crucible and failed, Marika tried to snuff out and quell any sign of it. The only thing allowed to exist were the Crucible knights, and only because they were controlled, turned, assets of Godfry. Even then, they're scattered and all but disbanded in the wake of the shattering. One of them even turned traitor to Tanith.

[@seraphimb]

oh my god i never noticed the link between the crucible knights’ names and geological periods that’s so cool

[@LATAM_EQ]

​@@absolutefocus2749making everything stagnant by removing the rune of death from the elden ring, without death new life can't be born, hence why most people in the lands between Lost their desire to reproduce themselves.

[@socratone-n2w]

​@@absolutefocus2749 removing the rune of death from The Elden Ring after Godwyn dying

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

Yo, Vaati, one more interesting thing I've gleaned from the DLC - there's quite the juxtaposition between Ranni and Miquella: Both discarded their flesh in order to achieve their goals. Both had to kill the soul of one demigod and the body of another. Both wanna screw over the established order and usher in a new one. The only difference is that Ranni seems to be on level with her followers and seek their council and guidance, while Miquella just has a cult. Plus, Ranni seems to want to usher in an age of freedom, while Miquella wants to usher in an age of...basically golden shackles.

[@Vandakai]

Freedom vs Control.

[@DarkHypernova]

In a way, this kinda reminds me of the conflict between the Assassins and Templars in the Assassin's Creed franchise. One side believes everyone should have free will while the other believes true peace can only be achieved through controlling everyone's will. Both sides believing theirs to be the righteous path.

[@JohnDoe-pn7nj]

both have 4 arms

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

@@JohnDoe-pn7nj mind = blown

[@9w8e7hf8]

Well put!

[@Lancechen_LC]

I just finished the dlc and can finally watch your videos again. Fills the void of completing the game in a way. Thanks as always Vaati 😊

[@jacquesbossou5484]

I love how Radagon and Marika have the same introductive melody to their respective themes because they were originally the same being, but then Marika's theme becomes melancholic and a little sinister (fitting for a lonely and ruthless goddess), while Radagon's becomes assertive and epic (fitting for a lord of order).

[@ramoraid]

Radagon hasn't always been the marika.

[@socratone-n2w]

​@@ramoraid I think they were the same being, like Miquella an St. Trina, but Marika divided herself into Radagon trying to give birth to the perfect child.

[@stevenarry]

Okay for what explain why Marika body was active when radagon body was turned to a sword they aren't one yet and also what happened to Trina legs?

[@EugeneDorkdinkletonBonquavo]

Someone said that in the secret rite scroll, it said smth about in order to be a god you need to have a consort and that consort needs to have a new vessel. Miquella's consort was Radahn and the vessel was Mohg. For Marika her consort was Radagon and the vessel for Radagon is quite literally Marika herself so that's how they fused.

[@stevenarry]

@@EugeneDorkdinkletonBonquavo your lore is shit man what about Godfrey the first elden Lord everything from start was Godfrey and the crucible knights not radagon radagon was a cast away curse from the massacred gaints

[@QuestionableObject]

Props to Messmer's va on doing a very convincing "pulling my own eye out" voice

[@Savant_Ananya]

seems like you have experience in that department.

[@JBasilix]

​@@Savant_Ananya A true 10/10 experience. Would do again any time. Sadly not doable more than 2 times

[@stevestevenson1678]

Dataminers also found a fourth St Trina message in the files and managed to restore it, where she thanks you after you slew Miquella

[@yusufcanl5373]

But why would they delete such a thing? Are they stupid?

[@meep9873]

@@yusufcanl5373 she is the other half of Miquella, if he dies, she dies too. She can’t thank you. After you kill Miquella and go back to her. You find her dead on the ground and can loot her lily as a helmet

[@cole5953]

​@meep9873 A tragedy. When you kill someone, you kill their kindness or potential for it though. Classic bleak fromsoft writing.

[@TorSmawbs]

Still literally no explanation of what she was doing in the world.

[@Tulip_bip]

​@TorSmawbs Yes there is??? Miquella abandoned his ability to feel love in that area, and this came from st. Trina, so she physically separated from him

[@Ex-D-]

I will say, it’s pretty bittersweet watching Miquella hug Radahn with both sets of arms as they die.

[@gurnoorsekhon6402]

Messmer's eye being a Marika Soreseal type thing was so cool. That was the only ounce of Grace that was left within him and by removing it, he became Graceless like us which is why he tells us to embrace our oblivion as he'll do the same. Amazing character.

[@jeremydeskins8451]

I was just doing the quest in Jarburg and noticed that there are flowers of every color there, just like in Shaman Village - From are so good with the tiny details.

[@MrHablo60]

jarburg in the lands between also grow a ton of flowers that you can harvest

[@morganfreeman5260]

@@MrHablo60gotta farm for my super fun pvp!

[@donovan4222]

I didn’t even know jarburg existed till after the DLC

[@JoaoCarlos-cc3zo]

And unlike the jars in the DLC, these are used to collect the bodies of warriors and are taken to the erdtrees so that the souls can be guided. Even these jars have an erdtree symbol on their lids.

[@justinroux1610]

​@@JoaoCarlos-cc3zoisnt it interesting how the jars in base game is seen as burial and in the land of shadow it's a punishment to be feared and was a treatment worst then death

[@alliehayes7399]

"I hope you're all having fun in the DLC!" I say from the other side of the fog wall outside Mohg's arena. Update: I made it in! 🙌

[@bobdylanlovr69]

Hope youre in now bro

[@PotheadYoda]

You got him man, keep trying :D but be gentle, he´s been through enough already ^^

[@samsterbasher]

BLEED...that's all, he's weak to bleed, which you probably knew. Also he's very resistant to fire...which you probably also already knew.

[@lordmpfree4564]

you got this bro I believe in you

[@gs4011]

​@@samsterbasher it's still funny to me that the LORD OF BLOOD is weak to bleed. Just goes to show, the Outer Gods are jerks.

[@GotA-do4ob]

I find that, of all the possible endings I've seen, Ranni's seems most noble. Several of the endings are destructive or just overall could be considered to be bad endings. Miquella wanted to save everyone out of a genuine desire for people to live without suffering or hate or pain, but to do so required a complete loss of agency for everyone, not to mention trapping himself in divinity. Ranni, on the other hand, was sort of wanting to make things how they were before the Greater Will ever brought its influence to the Lands Between. She wants divinity to divest itself from the world and be unreachable, while simultaneously becoming unable to influence anything in any meaningful way. She is also technically sacrificing herself to achieve this, but it comes without subjugation. Her solution simply means that divine power will no longer hold sway over the Lands and that it can become something new outside of the influence of gods. With the fingers dead, the ring shattered, the primordial beings which fell from the stars dead, and all the demigods dead (and death restored ????), there is nothing left besides the tarnished and Ranni herself who could hold terrible power over the fate of the Lands. And she does the most responsible thing with that power and locks it away where it cannot harm or be harmed.

[@ohnoslomo]

You just learned that characters words and actions, just like in real life, can be different or contradictory. And we don't know very much about Ranni specifically and know nothing of her true intentions. Do you assume she's incapable of lying?😂

[@Reshapable]

@@ohnoslomo This is an exceedingly dull response. "Or maybe it's all a lie!" for no reason other than it's impossible to prove otherwise. Great contribution, the conversation is soundly ended, thanks.

[@onyxsuccubus]

@@ohnoslomo It is truly remarkable how some people manage to master the baleful art of condescension.

[@jacobisterrible]

Just like every souls game before it,there is no true good or bad ending,its just based on your view on it.*Spoilers* One could argue that the frenzy flame ending where you rid the world of everything bad and good is the most noble.

[@inschaal8454]

Can’t believe mogh got miquellested

[@thedukeofchutney468]

Radahn too most likely.

[@RichardWinG5]

@@thedukeofchutney468 oh i bet.

[@ieatyonomnomnom]

By Miquella the Tickella

[@joshuawilson9005]

😂😂😂😂

[@ShikiOfAstora]

the miquellester

[@coleosborne4983]

I dunno if this has been said yet but regarding Radahn and why he stopped the stars movement, it could be because it would stop his fate as well, he is the son of Rennala and brother to Ranni so as a carian royal, his fate is in the stars. So perhaps he did make a vow but in order to prevent it happening he also used his gravity magic to halt the stars and thus his own destiny of being Miquellas consort.

[@swanaung8890]

And we fucking ruined his plan

[@painvillegaming4119]

@@swanaung8890we sorry big homie radahn your sister was just hot

[@techycheese6383]

And that makes sense as to why you have to kill radahn for the dlc to start. You kill him and release the stars thus making his fate come to fruition.

[@nicolascastro1145]

A nice detail is that the Tree Sentinels guarding the Shaman Village drop Marika's Blessings. Since those were made for Messmer, i think it implies he personally assigned them to guard his mother's village.

[@Reemon27]

huh i thought marika made it for them. but this take makes more sense!

[@donovan4222]

I think Marika betrayed her own people by selling them out to Hornsent and sacrificing them for godhood, which is why the village is empty, and she bathed it in gold/defends its memory. I actually think Marika may be the one who ordered it to be guarded, possibly even ordering Mesmer to do that.

[@guy9183]

​@@donovan4222Wth are you on ? She never betrayed her own kin she hated the horn sent day one

[@Hello-lf1xs]

@@guy9183the theory comes from how Leda describes it as a ‘betrayal’, not the Hornsent - and there also being some sort of ‘original sin’ mentioned iirc

[@jordanreavis8163]

@@guy9183 unless she was seduced by some promise of power. seduction that lead to the betrayal. after all, we don't know whose bodies those are that form the gate of divinity

[@whatcodeSV]

After watching this series; I get a gnawing feeling that I missed out on a huge part of the story, the world, and its history. Although I did read descriptions of some items, I could never stack together the scattered story. I never tried. By playing this masterpiece simply as a game you can not fully appreciate it. Thank you for parsing this lore together, it really adds weight to the entire experience.

[@VictorIV0310]

It's pretty interesting to compare and contrast Messmer and Miquella when it comes to the loyalty and trust of their followers because while Miquella can earn genuine loyalty from people like Leda and Malenia, he's prone to using his powers of compulsion to maintain his followers' loyalty. On the other hand, Messmer seems to inspire genuine loyalty from his followers without resorting to power or coercion despite seeming like a grim, sullen demigod who knows nothing but war and slaughter. - Rellana renounced her royal title to swear fealty to him along with some Carian knights and sorcerers, becoming known as his loyal “Sword”. - Commander Gaius is one of his close friends who leads his ground forces. Despite being an albinauric who would normally be shunned by the Golden Order, he remains loyal to Messmer and holds a high ranking and respected position. - His Lordsworn soldiers and knights are devoted to him (With spirit of one going as far as being outraged that Marika has never embraced him). They've proven to be difficult enemies with many tricks up their sleeve, implying a level of training and discipline higher than even some knights in the Lands Between. - The Fire Knights, his personal guard, came from Leyndell’s upper echelons and noble families. It's stated they didn't mind being ostracized and disowned by their noble families back in Leyndell if it meant being at their lord's side, and tried to put Messmer's flame into themselves, to show their unwavering support. On top of all that, they did all of this knowing they’ll be shunned by society and erased from record with their deeds unsung and forced to wage an unending war without mercy or honor. They also have no real reason to stay in the Land of Shadow anymore. While indeed, they're trapped with having no way of knowing how to get out and despite being war weary in what amounts to uncounted ages of genocidal slaughter, Messmer's army remains rather organized in the Land of Shadow despite major events happening outside their reach. The Golden Order has collapsed, Queen Marika is imprisoned in the Erdtree and the Lands Between was ravaged in the Shattering, all before the Tarnished comes to kill any and all remaining demigods left. Messmer and his army could’ve deserted the Golden Order, splinter up and resort to banditry. Yet, even after all this time, they remained at their posts, unaware of the developments in the Lands Between, with little to no hint of any rebellion or mutiny aside from a few black knights such as father and son duo Andreas and Huw, respectively, who rebelled Messmer after discovering his “serpentine nature” and was imprisoned for it. Even after Messmer quashed their rebellion, he gave them an honorable burial and mourned for their loss. Not saying that their deeds should necessarily be seen as justified and honorable but it's certainly an interesting look into Messmer's character.

[@joshuakim5240]

Another aspect to Messmer is that he doesn't seem to hold any animosity towards the Hornsent, mostly just slaughtering them at the order and wishes of Marika. He has a massive specimen storage room filled with studies on the Hornsent, showing that he is curious about them and perhaps even likes learning about them (not something one that desires genocide would do), preserving much of their legacy while ironically Marika wants to stamp out all traces of their existence. He also only seems to fight the player due to old, lingering, defunct orders of Marika telling him to fight Tarnished, as he doesn't actually seem to know what a Tarnished is (aka he's not aware that we're serving Marika's current goals). Messmer for the most part is a surprisingly nice dude given an abhorrently evil role that he dutifully has been fulfilling because he's a nice dude that wants to do what his mom wishes...even when said mom abandoned him and never came back.

[@__Man_]

Doesn't the description of the messmer soldier helm say that they were forced into service?

[@viola4210]

this was a great read! thank you

[@dyppityjoop5912]

Add Ranni to the mix and things become even more interesting, cause Ranni is much like Miquella in many ways. Both siblings wanted to become a God, but only Ranni succeeded, despite having less people under her and having a Tarnished consort. Both siblings did horribly shitty things in the name of their ideals of utopia and to achieve godhood. Ranni had Godwyn, her beloved Blaidd and Iji assassinated by her black knives, and previously ordered Blaidd to go kill Radahn to restart the stars, while Miquella nuked Caelid, using his own twin like a living weapon and mind controlled his own brothers to use as his tools. Ranni used Godwyn to divest herself of flesh all at once and presumably enter the Land of Shadow, while Miquella used Mohg to divest himself of flesh and enter the Land of Shadow. Both Ranni and Miquella are genius magicians in their respective spell types and Miquella during the final fight even has multiple arms like Ranni. The parallels are quite clear. And I find it pretty interesting that the same reason Ranni can succeed in her ascension while Miquella fails is because of the Tarnished. In the Age of Stars ending, Ranni betrays and inadvertently kills everyone ally she had, Blaidd, Iji, Radahn, Godwyn, Adula, even Seluvis if you count him. Also notice how despite being a Carian princess, she has not one Carian knight at her side? She was clearly a loner, but instead of failing and being punished, she gets her prize, she becomes a god and creates her order. Unlike Miquella who was surrounded by manipulated followers, she succeeds by literally killing almost everyone around her, most of who actually cared for her genuinely and would have done anything for her. Also I find this interesting albeit not that important but Ranni is the one who have us the Spirit Calling Bell, which itself is a gift from Torrent's former master aka Miquella. Despite both being Empyrean's vying to be gods to shape the Lands Between in their own ideals, they help each other out and vaguely trust each other. Also I wonder if Miquella has a shadow or not, or if Ranni has a alter-ego or not. Since Marika had both a shadow in Gurranq and a alter-ego in Radagon, maybe her special godts were split between her Empyrean children and Ranni got a shadow while Miquella got a alter-ego. Malenia kinda got screwd over though, she got nothing and was used like a living bomb by her beloved brother. Radahn got the worst of it though, being hunted down by both Ranni to restart the stars and Miquella so he could steal his soul.

[@milodrums]

I always thought messmer must have been a cool boss. His people can chill at the library and stuff

[@DomsGameRoom]

The shaman village filled in that blank about why Godrick says “we’ll go back to our home, bathed in gold”, the grafting must be an ancient offshoot of the shamans. I always assumed he was talking about Godfrey’s lineage but he meant marikas. Hence why his flesh can just randomly bind to others

[@nikolai347]

Good point, knowing shaman flesh easily melt with others (grafting too so)

[@ladamedesaraignees1764]

I think he's just talking about Leyndell, which he was lord of until Morgott, presumably, drove him out

[@portalmanHUN]

He's talking about Leyndell but the grafting thing is a good catch.

[@worldlinezero4783]

Oh my god, I didn't think of this. That's why grafting works.

[@timbubatz2188]

@@ladamedesaraignees1764 everybody thought that before but i think there is a reason he says "to our home, bathed in rays of gold" verbatum just like the shaman village is described

[@Yxnxh]

FINALLY MY ITEM DESCRIPTION READING KING RETURNS

[@Aliandergaming]

The video said Miquella's Cage and my brain made it into the funny, screaming actor.

[@lilylohmann614]

This made me imagine him embracing Radahn instead 😭

[@ExtradaemonYT]

The hornsent calling it a "Betrayal" makes sense if you remember the hornsent regarding their treatment of Shamans as a holy duty, it's not a betrayal because she was aligned with them and betrayed them, but because she betrayed the perceived sacred duty they intended for her.

[@donovan4222]

Are the Hornsent the ones who call it a betrayal though? The narrator for the trailer is Leda, she’s a follower of Miquella so would be giving his perspective…and Miquella’s rune calls whatever Marika did an “original sin.” I don’t think that description fits anything she did to the Hornsent, since Messmer purged them after Marika had already done her betrayal and became a god. Perhaps Marika actually sold her own people out to the Hornsent to become a god?

[@chrisdaughen5257]

And you never know. There's a strong chance she was made into a saint.

[@youngstoney707]

@@chrisdaughen5257I think the point of stuffing them into jars and reaching “sainthood” was a ritual to turn someone to an empyrean. Marika became an empyrean(a being capable of becoming a god) and Marika was then worshipped by the hornsent or at least held in higher regard than the other shamans. Seeing an empyrean was finally born the fingers jumped at the chance to spread the word of their god the greater will. The fingers then led Marika to the gate of divinity telling her to become the vassel of the Elden ring and in doing so she would become a god. That’s the scene at the trailer in the beginning with the hair in her hand. She walks through the gate achieves god hood and gracing gold on her new land the lands between and covering her old land in shadow.

[@nohjuan6355]

I think the betrayal refers to marika's creation of the golden order, instead of manifesting a god for the horsent. Since the shaman/mikos were being transformed to saints, the hornsent were probably trying to manifest a new god, but marika created a new one instead, one of gold. Thus she becomes a god, a new superpower and takes revenge against the hornsent

[@blinkrush6101]

I don’t think Marika’s betrayal demands an inclusion within Hornsent culture. Of course they’d think a shaman turning against them is a betrayal because they quite literally think the shamans belong to them - belong to their religious authority. It’s just like how a slave master might call a slave uprising a betrayal.

[@onepiece666]

I just thought the same 5 minutes ago replying to another comment, and this has been shown dozens of times already in multiples forms of medias like movies and series, where rebellion against the boss/owner/king is a betrayal by those that rank lower than them

[@Brasswatchman]

I might agree if it weren't for the fact Marika obviously felt guilty about *something* she left behind here. All that talk of "original sin" and so on.

[@blinkrush6101]

@@Brasswatchman where do you get guilt from? When the original sin is discussed it’s never from Marika’s perspective - we have no reason to believe she considers it a sin

[@mesmedor]

The madding hand mentions "those who were hunted down as heretics by their own brethren."

[@blinkrush6101]

@@mesmedor yeah, hornsent who were in the influence of the frenzied flame

[@amnadodd]

I also noticed there is 2 eyes the game gives for quests one is the "eye of grace" and 2nd is "eye of occlusion" and I noticed that messmer was given the eye of grace and if you see Melina's eye in the frenzied flame ending her left eye is dark blue ver similar to the eye of occlusion which is also symbolic that the twin of messmer is only mentioned once like she was hidden away fir something

[@dragonman7069]

Damn, good observation!! Melina's story is still hidden sadly

[@avaritia0]

When is messmers twin mentioned in game?

[@RephaimVolkihar]

​@@avaritia0 in the item description of Messmer's kindling it's stated that his younger sister was plagued by visions of fire

[@Marxist-Nixonist-Bidenist]

​@@RephaimVolkihar well that pretty much confirms it then

[@johnkercheval6065]

I read somewhere that Marika may have been the Hornset's first and only successful 'Pot Saint'. Which is how she because allied with them, and thus betraying them in the future.

[@m0002856]

Shaman village was such a treat. I knew it existed and knew that it was likely Marika’s hometown because how the heck can you not with how big Elden Ring is… I mean… such a revelation is going to be a secret easily spoiled by everybody excited at discovering it. Even still, the moment the harp starts to play… that soft harp that is reminiscent of the main Elden Ring theme song’s quiet opening and that played in the story trailer… I got goosebumps. Knowing that Marika seduced her way into the graces of the Hornsent only to ascend to godhood possibly after slaying the previous god? Betraying the people who let her in. All for vengeance on her people shoved into jars. Can I blame her? Maybe not. I think that’s what makes the story of Elden Ring so great though. Every character seems to be doing the wrong things for the right reasons. Ranni stealing Destined Death and slaying Godwyn’s soul so her body could die for the purpose of creating a better order. Miquella doing Miquella things for his new order. Even Marika’s actions “make sense” when you consider her backstory as told in the DLC. She had to deal with her entire home village getting wiped out. She became a god to remove death from the world so she could never lose somebody close to her again, and she sought revenge on those who took her family away from her. This also explains why she was so messed up from Godwyn’s death as well. The deaths of those close to her were what sent her over the edge, and to lose a son now even after ALL she had been through?

[@lordanonimmo7699]

The seduction Leda talks is more likely to be Marika who was seduced by the fingers. We know that at the start Marika and the Golden Order were based on blind faith. The fingers probably promised to a young Marika who saw her village being exterminated,that she would gain a lot of power be able to start her own order and create a new age the first age of the erdtree was the age of plenty,a time that sap from erdtree was plentiful and used to curr everything and Marika herself distributed,that the rays of gold of the erdtree healed people close to it but they tought it would be eternal but it was only fleeting,so Marika stopped blind faith and start her research.

[@Apt23-v8u]

​@@lordanonimmo7699the curious thing is, Even the fingers arent evil they follow their mother orders and Metyr did all of this for the only wish to see her father again, the greater Will

[@ssroym]

Its truly why I love the story of Elden Ring so much, each of the big players is seemingly just doing what they think is right. And in learning all their motivations each character becomes quite sympathetic. I mean just look at Mohg, with what little info we had about why he did what he did, we all thought him to be this crazed weirdo, when in truth he was actually something of a victim. Most of all I love the continued story of Marika, the more we learn the more on her side I become haha.

[@Leg1503]

Umm actually the hornsent are just evil 🤓. Also dung eater.

[@elementoflight6834]

This DLC was such a nostalgia trip. New Londo's drianing of Water. Lothric and Lorian Sullivahn The Cursemark of Undeath on Messmer...

[@gugg2216]

Visions of dark...,wraith

[@ivanthaboi]

That water drain hit different

[@kayhaich]

Also romina of the bud aka quelaag/chaos/rot realm, and perhaps anar londo sort of stuff...also the vertical links of land are really ds1 style.

[@gugg2216]

@@kayhaich I see romina more like the scorpion lady in ds2

[@elementoflight6834]

@@kayhaich Oh yeah, true, the half-centipede for sure is a Daughter of Chaos thing.

[@rickytebbe]

I like how this tied together because it explains something that always bothered me about Malenia's march south: why was Godrick allowed to keep his great rune after Malenia kicked the crap out of him? She wasn't after rune fragments, only Radahn.

[@beckstheimpatient4135]

And we wonder now, did Malenia really love her brother? Or did he steal her heart too, just like he did with everyone else.

[@huss1up707]

@@beckstheimpatient4135 Malenia did really love Miquella, coz they all had the same problems. Both Malenia and Miquella shared the same parent, both born accursed which made them bond even closer and Miquella was actively trying to save Malenia from the Rot.

[@VictorIV0310]

@@beckstheimpatient4135I think she was genuinely loyal to him thus Miquella had no reason to charm her.

[@Blueberry_Koi]

@@VictorIV0310 that might be true, but leda is also genuinely loyal to miquella but miquella still charms her to change her personality

[@spartanscv]

​@@VictorIV0310 Leda is 100% loyal and was charmed too

[@abraxis7292]

Know whats an even worse thought? Those small Jar Bairns? Yeaaaaah whats in those little jars you wonder?