Electric buses in Oslo are failing in cold winter

[@danielmarkiewicz8489]

about month ago there was articles in polish media about electric buses in one of the polish city that failed during winter times. after few days it was discovered that problem was in lack of training for bus drivers (they used normal brakes, and AC was set to 23C, after they lowered AC to 17 degrees and trained drivers to use recuperation problem was solved but no media wrote about it)

[@majasako]

Rofl, +17 °C... 🤣

[@danielmarkiewicz8489]

@@majasako we are wearing winter coats here, 17C is perfect in a bus

[@Steror]

@@majasako It makes no sense to heat the cabin very much when people come from outside... Where the temperature is negative. Why waste fuel? When you have an engine so inefficient that the heat is spilling out, then yes, why not. But in that case you are not wasting fuel.

[@user-wz8hp2ix9f]

23C, better start stripping if the ride is longer than 20 minutes.

[@chihonchoi6898]

Does those buses has heat pumps?

[@stoissdk]

Here in Denmark, the garbage trucks have been delayed because of range issues in the cold weather (3-5 C), causing a lot of rescheduling of garbage pickup. Before that, they had to charge the trucks with diesel generators because they didn't have the charging capacity at the garage. It's becoming a bit of a joke here...

[@davidmenasco5743]

It sounds like someone skipped a few steps in the planning process.

[@utrak]

if only they could, like, load the diesel generator on the truck, and charge while driving? WAIT A MINUTE... couldn't you use the diesel generator to drive the wheels directly? Hmmm nah probably harder than it sounds

[@therpope]

@@utrak okay

[@guguigugu]

@@utrakit is more efficient to use the diesel generator to charge a battery which drives the car. this is called a hybrid system.

[@utrak]

@@guguigugu totally!

[@akse]

Here in Finland they did complain about cold indoor temperature in more colder weather. Drivers especially tended to get cold while driving compared to old buses. When you open doors constantly the warm air gets out etc. so it requires a lot of heating power.

[@JaakkoIsWatching]

The heating system in e-busses works exactly the same way in the winter as in diesel busses. With a Webasto burning diesel. If not serviced properly, heaters fails, if serviced, they work well.

[@CrusaderSports250]

At the end of the day the travelling public doesn't care why you have a problem, the bus never turned up IS the problem, if the diesel buses turned up in those conditions or if they were told the new and far more expensive electric buses would avoid the diesel buses problems then by not turning up you have failed, and being the first person the public encounters it's the bus driver that takes the flak, when things like this go wrong then those who make the desicions should be on the bus to explain and take responsibility.

[@orbiradio2465]

In winter heating can easily account for a third of the energy used by a city bus.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

@@JaakkoIsWatching If I understood the problem correctly from reading news articles, the problem in Finland was speficic to bus model: the heating system for the driver was poorly designed and failed to keep their left hand and left foot warm without toasting the other side when they had to open the front door to let passangers in. Simply poorly designed air vents instead of missing a proper heating system.

[@JaakkoIsWatching]

@@MikkoRantalainen Possible, I just also heard about some bus model with wrongly connected webastos, leading to cooling cycle not happening when being switched off. And then webasto getting clogged fast.

[@tommyovesen]

In Bodø (North of the Arctic circle in Norway) we only have electric buses. No exceptions (except long district routes). There has been issues, but not with range or battery. It has been issues with slippery roads, and the "leddbuss" (articulated bus) having problem because they have the drive axel in the back wheels

[@johangustavsen6962]

But Bodø is pretty flat. They tried hybrids in Tromsø, and they were shit in the hills.

[@jasonw98]

You can drift them around

[@buddy1155]

If traction is the problem then the solution is easy to implement on an EV bus, just make it all wheel drive. Try converting an ICE bus to all wheel drive.

[@realulli]

@@buddy1155 When I heard the Cyberbeast had only one locking diff I thought Tesla had done a bad job. Then I realized: the locking diff was on the front axle. The only one with a diff... there's only one diff to lock, because the Cyberbeast has three motors... ;-)

[@tommyovesen]

We have hills on some routes. They are the problematic ones@@johangustavsen6962

[@Kleuvert]

The company I work for, we use chargers that have an operation tempature of -35 till 55 degrees Celsius. There are heaters inside the charger when it’s to cold or wet inside the charger they turn on. Works perfect.

[@jeffreyquinn3820]

I live someplace that gets down to -35 Celsius a few times every year. Diesel buses tend to break down or just not start in those temperatures. You'll end up waiting over an hour for a diesel bus in -35 at least once or twice every year.

[@dmitripogosian5084]

@@jeffreyquinn3820 I live where it gets down to -35 occasionally. Never recall our diesel transit having problems, but maybe I missed that

[@Perbear]

In Norway all gas stations supply winter diesel in the cold season and summer diesel when weather is warm. The diesel has lower wax content during winter season to avoid issues when temperature goes below freezing.

[@jeffreyquinn3820]

@@Perbear I expect it's similar here. However, some of the newer buses our transit system bought a few years ago broke down every third or fourth time temperatures got anywhere near -35. I spent quite a bit of time waiting for diesel buses that never arrived.

[@iirmantass3]

@@jeffreyquinn3820 Shitty busses then. When we had -20 or lower temperatures, couple of things were done - either bus would be serviced before cold and it would have 0 problems, or mechanics on duty that night would go and start every couple of hours so it wouldn't freeze up, if it hasn't any service done beforehand, or just let it run all night. Fuel consumption, and everything would be nice and hot when driver came to work. They broke down, along with trolleybuses when some shithead forgot to open the valve on air tanks and empty out all of the condensate, because in those temperatures air system would have a lot of moisture and freeze up.

[@gavinhou3261]

-5 is not really low temperature. I'm in China and we have a lot of electric buses in the city, never heard any of the buses were down because of the recent record-low temperature (-32 Celsius🥲).

[@xusiaxod6255]

You're in China, you never going to hear the truth about anything, ever.

[@Redmanticore]

as cold as finland! big countries have totally different weathers in the same country at the same time.

[@gavinhou3261]

True, the temperature could reach close to 30 in Haikou(a city in the southernmost of China) whilst it's lower than -20 in the north.😅@@Redmanticore

[@kimchan382]

​@@Redmanticore: actually 02.01.2024 we have minus 30 degrees in Oulu/Finland.

[@rboz4637]

Knuckleheads in my county (USA) are buying a fleet of H2 busses because they got a federal grant. Cost per mile - 1 kg $7.79 of hydrogen has essentially the same energy content as a gallon of diesel. Hard for me to pin down but looks like hydrogen fuel costs 10x electricity!

[@informatimago]

**Efficiency of H2 production by water electrolysis:** about 70-80%. **Efficiency of converting H2 back into electricity via a fuel cell:** about 40-60%. Therefore, the overall cycle efficiency is approximately 28-48%. So between 2 and 3.6 times more expensive, only on energy basis.

[@siraff4461]

@@informatimago Try doing the whole math on the electric. Converting coal/gas/etc in a power station, all the losses before it gets to the bus then the cost of running it - you might be surprised which one is cleaner. Especially when the heater is needed.

[@siraff4461]

@@logitech4873 Apart from all the transfer and charging losses, yes. Implemented correctly it also has the possibility of using waste heat from the power station but since thats not been done yet we'll leave that alone with all the other "in the future" nonsense.

[@laurencefraser]

@@siraff4461 once you take into account the Massive efficiency gains of just about every type of generator, motor, engine, etc. as it scales Up? I might be surprised, but I probably won't.

[@siraff4461]

@@laurencefraser Especially as it scales up and especially if you use real world numbers rather than best case pie in the sky. Obviously not for every use case or even most but there are plenty of places/situations where even internal combustion is still better. I'm all for using the best tool for the job - regardless of what that may be.

[@whilliams178]

We have E-busses here in Uppsala. And we don´t have any heat in them on coldy days. Buss drivers sitt 8 hours in 8 degrees busses.

[@44Bigs]

Here in the Netherlands there were some issues with BYD electric buses, but mostly because of the tight bus schedule accounting minimal time for charging based on a theoretical charging curve while in practice buses would charge slightly slower for various reasons. Other than that they’ve been fine.

[@spxram4793]

Ok - but Norway has much colder temperatures. There are reports from Russia, who is currently only getting Chinese cars, that they fail in unusually high numbers in cold weather. Most EV buses in Europe are China made - we should do better. There are many reasons for their "cheapness".

[@superpowerdragon]

@@spxram4793 the cheapness is mainly due to manufacturing efficiency, their quality is not bad, at least not much worse than the products from other countries. China also has extreme winter climate down to as low as -40 degree, and it seems to work fine there.

[@timothychung4811]

Surprisingly, these buses don't have solar panels on top. That is a big area not to.

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@timothychung4811 Panels on a car, bus, or other vehicle are unlikely to make any significant difference. There's just not remotely enough area for that to help. And the larger the vehicles get, the more juice they need.

[@steinbauge4591]

@@spxram4793 many of the Chinese cars are ICE and should not have any particular problems

[@EpicReality]

The whole traction thing that comes up from time to time is because the articulated (trekkspill) buses have the driving axle in the rear. Basically in the ‘trailer’. This is the same for diesel bus! Makes them do really bad in the snow.

[@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck]

My revivifier has ridden articulated buses in Vancouver. He was surprised to learn that the drive axle is in the 'trailer' - seems like a recipe for problems.

Some have it in the middle for this reason. It always seemed like a bad idea. Also allows for rear axle steering to decrease the cut in of the rear.

[@Mladjasmilic]

There is a solution. It is called 'troleybus'. It works at -50. Siberia approved.

[@garyanderton]

Issue is they overload the roads. All the roads where the trolley typically travels in Oslo, the roads are cracked.

[@davidmenasco5743]

​@@garyandertonTrolley busses are very lightweight. They have no batteries and no transmission and no combustion engine. The ones I've been on, you can feel them practically float down the street.

[@chengcao418]

I massively prefer electric busses, not because they are more efficient or what not, just because they are smooth and vibration free. Diesel busses with that horrible vibration and noise is so bad

[@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck]

stinky

[@tnickknight]

Wow, they are not like that in Poland . They run great and very efficient.

[@davidmenasco5743]

​@@tnickknightAll diesel busses produce noise and vibrations, and noxious fumes that are both toxic and carcinogenic. Many of them also make large jerking motions as they speed up and slow down and shift gears, putting a lot of stress on the body. And the efficiency is half that of electric busses. Even the best and newest diesel bus is still one of the most inefficient means of transportation.

[@tnickknight]

@@davidmenasco5743 Except not really, and the electric busses have been almost a disaster forced on people. Also the emissions are not that bad in new buses. People would rather have 4 new diesel busses than one poorly performing electric bus, that hides it's environmental damage

[@tnickknight]

@@davidmenasco5743 remember not all countries are oil fiefdoms like Norway.

[@leifalgermissen8043]

The chargers at Alnabru are one of the first installed with pantographs in Norway several years ago. They work fine, no overheating issues, but the contacts are more exposed to the weather. If I remember right they are from Medcom in Poland.

[@lkrnpk]

Solaris busses as such are Poland I think, but I do not think they are of shoddy quality as such

[@stomil]

@@lkrnpkSolaris are excellent quality.

[@Marlow925]

Well ... Poland gets proper winters, so they should be ok.

[@tomc78zg]

​@Marlow925 Poland winters probably are not so cold as now in Scandinavian. But probably more cold than Australins ones. 😂

[@mikoske]

They should call Kempower to get winter rated chargers xD Here in Helsinki we have lots of electic busses as well, I have not heard about any problems. I remember seeing at least Volvo, VDL and some Chinese brand e-busses. Basically all new city busses are electric because running costs are so much lower.

[@edicant1967]

I drive some electric buses and trolleybuses with batteries. The company is investing heavily in battery buses. The infrastructure is mindblowingly expensive, and if a battery pack is defective, as we see with the trolleybuses, the costs are even higher. So your comment about lower costs is misleading.

[@Redmanticore]

@@edicant1967 "mindblowingly expensive" compared to what? oil infrastructure isnt free, either. to make, bring and service oil products around the world, and pay everyone's salaries, and oil companies´ profits. at least the electricity can be made inside your own country. OPEC doesn't control it, like they control oil. so you have to also add the price of geopolitical risk. not wise, too high price to pay.

[@rablakli]

We also have electric ferries here in Oslo, they run just fine…..

[@matthias2087]

I know that some BYD 12 meter buses (BYD K9UB) in the Netherlands had problems with overheating if the driver needed full power for a long time (or bad driving). This has been resolved by replacing the drive shaft with a stronger one that BYD uses in the 13 meter buses (BYD K9UE).

[@MRT-co1sd]

Does that mean the Chinese drivers are more mellow?

[@aname5695]

China makes garbage

[@GoldenCroc]

Drive shaft? Perhaps you meant some other word, because "drive shaft" doesnt make much sense in this context. "drive unit/motor" or something like that perhaps?

[@erkinalp]

@@MRT-co1sdyep

[@ingo_8628]

These chargingdevices look like the ones we have in cologne, we had also problems, they where solved by integrating heating. Who could guess that heating helps against cold?

[@Francis-yc9nc]

We have in the swiss citys mostly tram's or trolleybus they don't need battery's. The best part they work every year some since the 1940is. In the other areas i hope EV busses will be added. the waste trucks are slowly moved to EV but it takes time.

[@costelgigi31]

Yeah, but it is kindda prehistoric. one needs to play with the proper charging and be smart about it.

[@davidmenasco5743]

​@@costelgigi31There's an old saying: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (In other words, if something is not broken, there is no need to repair it)

[@MARKSTRINGFELLOW1]

​@@costelgigi31 Why carry a battery when you can carry more passengers?

[@costelgigi31]

@@MARKSTRINGFELLOW1 Actually, that is what I am saying, but haters gonna hate. I really hope the authorities will gather these electric buses and charge them properly in heated garages, and then we might see some nice consequences like in Paris and many other places. 🔥

[@CrusaderSports250]

​@@costelgigi31and the cost to heat the garage?, never had to do that with diesel buses, most of which even live outside.

[@anselml2928]

Thank you for providing some more informations. The story was also in the German news outlets. But only in the typical EV FUD spreading ones. They claimed that the range was the problem. But I looked it up. The buses in question are advertised with 250km range with 500 kWh battery. This seams plenty of energy for city driving. Until now it seamed odd to me that the range would be the problem. Someone on Reddit mentioned that this type of bus is not well suited for winter driving Independent of it being an EV, because of the rear wheel drive and the flexible joint in the middle.

[@Claude_van]

Measuring range doesn’t work for stop and go. You lose the same amount of energy per hour.

[@T.Ka.]

​​​@@sk.43821 Dieses Problem hat jeder Gelenkbus, egal welcher Antrieb. Durch den Antrieb der letzten Achse schiebt sich der Bus quasi zusammen. Es gab mal Busse da konnte man für diese Fälle das Gelenk sperren, Ich habe aber keine Ahnung ob es das heute noch gibt.

[@jmi5969]

250km/500kwh is not "plenty", it sounds outright excessive for urban use. The buses in my city - the other extreme - have only 77 kWh capacity and 60 km urban-cycle range ... and they have plenty of their own problems, but the batteries and overhead chargers have no issues with winter temperatures.

[@tomsixsix]

@@Claude_van If anything, EVs get better range in stop and go than continuous usage. The only question is whether heating in the passenger compartment is using too much power, though with a 500kWh battery you'd expect quite a long runtime!

[@carholic-sz3qv]

Lol!!! There is atill range problem! Normal diesel or hybrid bus which even runs on biodiesel in Norway can be used as replacement of trains when the tracks are in repair for example! ICE are significantly/highly capable and flexible in their use

[@oslonafo]

I live in Oslo and I had no issues with electric buses at all, so I call bullshit on this. Used to have a lot of issues with Diesel buses in winter as well.

[@Storlans]

Sweden also had electric buss issues, they simple dident work during winter, they fixed it by going back to disel buses.

[@markeaton6734]

We have winter in Australia, but tritium is from Queensland where winter is like 10° when it gets really cold

I remember that Ruter got two Hydrogen buses, but there were a lot of technical problems and spare parts was hard too get. So the project was canceled. They were very expensive also.

[@stevejones8392]

Also let’s not forget that typically it takes 50kwh to generate 1kg of hydrogen!

[@Glenni91N]

To add on BYD, they also run here in Haugesund (also in Norway for those not in the know. :P ) , they do have some traction issues ( I saw one spinning when trying to go up a hill when it was snowing heavily here 3 weeks ago). But other than that, they seem to run fine, and handle the cold itself well. I usually cycle, but because of the weather that was a nope... So I took the bus pretty often, and BYD buses ran on time just fine.

[@ielee1765]

The west would like to see Chinese failure, and blame them straight away without finding out the exact problems, why???? Even if the problem is not the buses it is the Australia charging equipments.

[@NL90000]

We also have a lot of issues with electric busses in Sweden. Both drivers and commuters complain that the electric busses are way to cold. Not sure if they can´t prodeuce enough heat or if they run into even more range problems if they heat them up to normal temperature. As an electric car owner I think its just a fact that the current batteries doesnt handle cold very well.

[@swecreations]

It's likely to do with insufficient heating systems, batteries are not the problem

[@praiha]

Apparently it's a problem with Volvo busses

[@petesjk]

Motors and inverters also need proper cooling. It sounds like the cooling system isn’t robust enough for heavy loads up extended steep gradients. The article mentions a more robust drive shaft is being specified, which seems to implicate an inefficient drivetrain component.

[@davidmenasco5743]

The industry is still quite new. Many refinements will be implemented over time. The cooling systems and heating systems need further refinements, the batteries and drive trains need further refinements. All of this will come in time. But they will only come if the busses are on the road being used. This is how we learn the best way to make them.

[@swecreations]

@@davidmenasco5743 They have been on the road and in use for many years now, these systems already exist and are in place on the better bus models, it's more to do with buying the ones suited for the job than that the technology itself can't handle it nowadays.

[@MrROTD]

I know from experience that these batteries lose almost half thier capacity at below freezing temps, they need a heating system to keep them within the range and that takes more energy so you can't win.

[@TheLukanda]

The infrastructure failed. The people that had to get a different mean of transport don't care if it was the charging station or the bus at fault. If ICE buses fail to show up due to lack of fuel you would blame the infrastructure the same way. Public transport needs to not fail ever. Period.

[@mikapeltokorpi7671]

City of Tampere to City of Nokia electric bus route (25 km one direction) were cancelled over this winter season and switched back to diesel busses. Apparently a range anxiety issue. They switched to electric buses in September. There us couple of hills, but not that steep ones.

[@antecboy]

I live at Kangasala, just east of Tampere and regularly commute by e-bike and bus to engineering company at Tampere's city center. I think I'll send the Tampere's agency of public transportation an e-mail and ask what the situation is with their electric busses and if they have had any problems with them in the summer and winter weather.

[@ewoutbuhler5217]

it's just a learning curve, they'll get there, as long as they not throw in the towel...

[@antecboy]

I got a reply from TKL about their electric busses, the reply is in finnish, but you can translate it if needed: "Hei, Kiitos palautteestanne. TKL:llä ei tällä hetkellä ole yhtään sähköbussia liikenteessa, heille on tulossa uusia sähköbusseja tämän vuoden puolella. Meidän liikennöitsijöistämme Pohjolan Liikenteellä ja Koiviston Autolla on sähköbusseja Tampereella liikenteessä. Heidän kertomansa mukaan sähköbussilla voidaan liikennöidä kelistä/vuodenajasta riippumatta samalla tavalla kuin dieselbussillakin. Autojen lataukseen on varattava enemmän aikaa näin kovilla pakkasilla. Akkujen kesto on näillä keleillä vähän lyhyempi kuin lämpimällä säällä. Autoa voi siis joutua vaihtamaan nopeammin päivän aikana. Nokialla liikennöidään normaalisti sähköbussikalustolla koko ajan. Autoa on jouduttu satunnaisesti ottamaan pois liikenteestä auton rikkoutumisen tai auton akkujen varauksen loppumisen vuoksi. Tuolloin on vara-autona käytetty diesel-bussia, mikäli ei ole ollut vapaana sähköbussia vara-autoksi. Terveisin NYSSE"

[@kairikkola]

October this year winter started in Finland. I have Hyundai Ionic EV and Mazda CX-5 AWD diesel. Hyundai dropped 40 % of it's range last two months. Mazda uses 5-6 litres diesel per 100 km. And it's warmer inside and weather doesn't matter. Plus always +1100 km range. For local driving it's ok but for travelling I'll choose diesel. Even cheaper drive diesel than with these DC robbery prices, Ionity etc. EV is not ready for cold climate. I don't wanna be in stress and look all the time how much battery left.

[@Bogdan27911]

A diesel warmer inside? I'm far from a fan of electric cars but my diesel takes about 10 min of driving over 50 to get warm air inside at -10 C. If you have something like Webasto, that's another thing. Also, even if you lose 20-30% of an EVˋs range in winter, the cost is 5 times lower than diesel with home charging here in Norway. I wouldn't have imagined buying an EV a year ago, but it seems to work great for my wife's commuting (150 km daily) and I have since warmed up to them.

[@torsteinengevik3744]

Charging issues are just parts of the problem. Wheelspin is a bigger issue. 3 axles but only 1 driving. The absence of a diff brake maybe? According to drivers it will spin on wet road. The wheel diameter is small as well, as the wheel arcs, there is no space for snowchains. (Which goes for most city diesel buses as well). And to be environmental friendly, town council forbid the use of stud tyres. Than you are stuck!

[@praiha]

There were reports that some Volvo electric busses didn't heat the passenger area enough in Oulu, Finland, but other electric busses did better.

[@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck]

That's ok. Everyone in Oulu rides a bicycle in winter. Great video!

[@kimchan382]

​@@FrunkensteinVonZipperneckMe, I am riding my bike nearly 100% all the years long. But with minus 27c degrees for 30min it will stressful for your lungs. Today at 02.01.2024 we got around minus 30c degrees.

[@kimchan382]

​@@FrunkensteinVonZipperneckFunkenstein, sind Sie Deutsch? Leben Sie in Oulu?

[@keywestbarcard]

Why isn't Hybrid a thing? I rented a newer hybrid car about 2 years ago. I had it for a week and did a ton of driving and filled it up once. It was perfect. I think I got 60-70 miles per gallon. No worries about anything.

[@davidmenasco5743]

Thanks for that fossil fuel advertisement. But no thanks. Perhaps you should go back to the FUD shed and ask them for some fresh FUD.

[@CenturionKenshin]

@@davidmenasco5743 Do you know where the electricity comes from?- your schmuck.

[@baldurvigfusson5797]

Nobody is willing to buy hybrid cars after 200.000 km. Imagine having 2x drive system maintenance to worry about

[@keywestbarcard]

lol huh? @@davidmenasco5743

[@Any4cards]

@@davidmenasco5743lol, he really got under your skin with just saying he liked hybrids

[@BillMitchell-lm8dg]

Here in Los Angeles area, bus companies seem to be trying out only electric buses, and no buses that I've seen, yet, run on hydrogen. With the dramatic drop in battery prices and battery energy density, hydrogen is losing interest.

[@99solutionsit10]

These buses comes to my city too. Sometimes, we have here during winter nights of -15 or less. I will really like to see how they will manage these temp.

[@albi2k88]

3:15 Solaris is a Polish bus manufacturer. Their diesel buses liked to catch fire on their own.

[@pieter85]

CATL is their battery provider. They seem to use LFP batteries.

[@JohnFatCat]

​@@pieter85 I'm afraid he is referring to "diesel" buses.

[@pieter85]

@@JohnFatCat @3:15 it is about an electric Solaris bus... I thought there was a prob regarding to their batteries, that's why I commented, but it were the chargers apparently. (hadn't seen the whole vid yet)

[@JohnFatCat]

@@pieter85 What I wanna point out was that Solaris was notorious for their bus catching fire EVEN the diesel one so there should be nothing to do with the battery suppliers. That's the conclusion you can make without finishing the video.

[@pieter85]

@@JohnFatCat I didnt say anything about fires... I assumed their busses were cold-gating because of their LFP batteries... But that was not the problem apparently

[@timscott3027]

We have just got ev buses and so far they seem good. The range is a bit of an issue at the moment as our company has decided to start using the buses full time before the fast chargers have been installed at the yard, so they have been running out with like %50 battery in the mornings, and drivers are having to swap buses during shifts, but they are nearly finished so hopefully things will be better once they can all get juiced up overnight. Overall they are much nicer to drive.

[@blasuxru]

We've been having a lot of electrical buses in Moscow for five or something years and I never heard of any problems with them in winter temps, even at -30. I believe they're locally made though and the model is KAMAZ-6282

[@picandvideo]

Big deal. Technology occasionally has hiccups. Minor setbacks. Opportunity for improvement. The benefits are much more.

[@burger9997]

Here in Trondheim they have been running Volvo 7900 Electric on specific routes for years with little problem. AtB also uses pantographs

[@stevezodiac491]

So a bus with a direct electrical feed ?

[@burger9997]

@@stevezodiac491Yes, they place it at the start/end of each line. Heres an example from google maps: maps.app.goo.gl/UTwzYgFjq1uUJUXy6?g_st=ic

[@ab-tf5fl]

Curious if anyone has explored the idea of a solution where bus's propulsion system is electric, but when temperatures drop below a certain level, they use propane or some other fuel to heat the cabin, rather than draining the battery to do it. While an approach like this is definitely not necessary for electric buses to work in cold weather, it does allow electric buses to function with smaller batteries than would otherwise be needed, which should, in theory, reduce the cost of the electric bus fleet. For areas with mild climates, this approach seems overkill (just use a heat pump), but for places with more severe winter weather, this seems like a potential pragmatic solution that could be cheaper than simply sizing the batteries that get hauled along all year round for the coldest possible day.

[@JaakkoIsWatching]

Heaters burning diesel is a standard feature in ALL electric busses in Finland.

[@DENIS68260B]

like the electric Peugeot 106 in the 2000s! (with electric heating I think it would have been necessary to push it...😁)

[@BigEightiesNewWave]

Combustion engines move cargo ships thousands of miles, and allow humans to fly all over world, and run the big machines that build cities, and mine the metals used to make everything, incl. BEV batteries. transport goods across vast distances. Also diesel generators are used in every hospital I have worked in for emergency power. Patients lives, esp the cardiac monitors, IV pumps, and ventilators, and charting DEPEND on Diesel if we lose power. We test generator weekly.

[@davidmccarthy6061]

Yep, just need to make sure all the equipment is winterized, and a solid methodology of product testing in the regions it will be used.

[@supertouring1]

I agree there needs to be maybe more winter testing. Though To be fair, you can try to winter test, but nothing can replace real life testing (on actual routes, bus filled with people getting on and off that brings may uncover unexpected problems. The challenge is trying to quickly implement design changes once the feedback starts coming in.

[@supertouring1]

Our transit system once bought like 200-300 smaller community buses from a California company. But after being put into service, driver's started complaining about headaches and feeling sick. The complaints were initially dismissed, but after major complaints by the union, an investigation was launched. It was then supposedly discovered that CO was leaking into the cabin. In California, the AC is always turned on to help circulate/clear the air. But up north, the AC isn't always used leading to a higher than normal amount of CO buildup in the cabin. They buses were pulled out of service and sold back back down south to warmer climates. That said, I'm not sure if we could have sued, but you know how court cases can drag on for years.

[@prakashholla7331]

E buses are failing in hot weather too. the southern state of Kxxxxa in India bought E buses for intra city use. Some months later they were withdrawn from service and dumped in the corner of a depot I saw a photo of green color buses supporting green color ivy ( which also entered open windows) in the midst of greenery ( Rainy season). Amazing sight

[@tedk-42]

Australian EV owner here - Tritium have the worst reliability among chargers here with many out of service at charging locations

[@concernedcitizen2076]

As long as they dont ignite as the london busses.

[@Iki_Viki]

Since buses are always driving along the same route, especially in the cities one should really consider trolleybus as a solution. Lot more environmentally friendly, without expensive and problematic battery.

[@drfisheye]

The battery wasn't the problem.

[@CenturionKenshin]

You can even have usual lead battery for emergency and that would be enough... though the maintenance might be tricky for the wire lines.

[@2k10clarky]

There was a trolley bus proposal in my city (Leeds, UK) it got cancelled due to skyrocketing costs and environmental lobbying (certain green areas were to be sacrificed) tbh it made not much sense a decade ago and would make zero sense now we have a hybrid bus fleet and some routes are trialing fully electric. I can imagine a day when we have inductive charging at bus stations so the busses don’t even have to return to depot to recharge

[@jonasstahl9826]

​@@2k10clarkyWould make sense to have a Diesel-Generator in the electric bus. During Winter you need heat anyway and during Summer you can use the heat for an absorbtion cooling system (heat powered airconditioning)

[@lennyvalentin6485]

If an accident of some sort rips down the overhead wires (tree falling, crane truck driving by with crane extended by mistake etc), the entire route is blocked until repairs can be affected. Also, high-voltage wires can pose a danger to passers-by in the event of the wires getting severed. Trolley buses have all the disadvantages of proper trams, but none of the advantages. EV batteries are proven safe and non-problematic. Stop spreading known falsehoods.

[@BigTwitchy]

Could you send us some of that cold please? It’s way too warm here in Bavaria. It’s about 5-8° too warm at the moment.

[@niklaspersson5136]

I often ride electric buses in my town. Never a problem! Although they were the only ones who started last winter because they had fuel problem with the gas buses :)

[@middleburg11]

Not as cold as there...omg

[@Djekkie-gj7jz]

My hometown in The Netherlands, Eindhoven, has been operated for a few years now with VDL articulated buses. In the beginning this also caused problems with buses stopping here and there, but everything has to be learned. Nowadays things are going well, and at sub-zero temperatures the timetable has to be adjusted, which means that the buses have to relieve each other more quickly, so that they can also be loaded earlier. In the beginning it is try and error, but over time it will work fine. The VDL High Energy batteries can also be charged quickly using a pantograph on the roof.

[@rvdb8876]

Als ik het goed begrijp moet je vanwege de aflossingen twee elektrische bussen hebben om één dieselbus te vervangen, want de dieselbus tankt 's morgens en rijdt onbeperkt de hele dag. Meer nog, ik hoorde dat in deze elektrische bussen een stookolie verwarmingsapparaat zit om het interieur te verwarmen tijdens de winter, milieuvriendelijk?

[@Thinkcity]

The three-axle buses are operated with power on the rear axle only. This results in poor weight distribution and they end up standing crosswise on slippery surfaces. In Drammen, Trondheim and Fredrikstad, the electric buses have four-wheel drive. These worked great in the cold and snow. Better than the diesel buses actually.

[@3204clivesinclair]

Regardless of why vehicles fail, or what energy source they use. When you break down.... 99.9% of recoveries will be by a diesel vehicle. Diesel vehicles will also mine and transport raw materials required for EV's. Then transport and deliver the end product to you. So, dont be so down on diesel jist yet A genuine question - when todays EV owners were driving gas or diesel cars, did you hate them? Finally, i know several EV owners, not one bought them to save the environment, but to save on running costs.

[@jonasezekiel3829]

At -5° everything fails I'm not surprised, a secret of lithium batteries is that you have to warm them up when it's cold and cool them up when it's hot for them to function properly. But that country is hell at -10° count me dead.

[@marvelvolvo]

We have the same problem in Sweden .with no heat inside the bus

[@garystorm799]

Tritium is crap, even here in Australia. They are a Queensland company, but use a lot of American hardware... Which fails often in Australia. ABB seem to have the most reliable chargers here.

[@thgserra]

Hey Bjorn and everyone who might understand more about the subject, why not use the trolleybus? I'm from Brazil, and in a city in São Paulo, there have been recent studies on using a "mix" of trolleybuses with battery-powered buses for areas where trolleybus wires don't reach. I mean, the trolleybus having a larger-than-usual battery to operate in areas where there's no electricity from the wires, with the battery fulfilling that route part.

[@MichaelEricMenk]

Bergen,Norway have one line with articulated trolly busses with large battery. The battery is used to cross the middle of the line where there are no overhead lines. Tunnels, a bridge, tram line and NIMBY-ism made it complicated to have trolly power lines in the middle. If I remember correctly, Bergen has the last remaining trolly line in Norway

[@CrusaderSports250]

​@@MichaelEricMenkthe trolleybus catanery may be a visual problem, but it is exactly the same as that used for trams, had Edinburgh gone for the trolleybus instead of trams then the project would have been significantly cheaper, quicker and with far less disruption, and ultimately the system could have been extended to cover the whole of the city, instead we have a truncated network because they ran vastly over budget and ran out of funding, if we are to electrify the transport network then the trolleybus is in my opinion the only way to go.

[@ZombieTomato]

They are hideous visually and a mess of cables. Sao Paulo is already ugly af with all those broken wires hanging over sidewalks. Also, storms will cause several of those cables to break (falling branches, wind), so imagine the level of disruption caused by a few downed branches.

[@thgserra]

​The idea behind this study is precisely to remove all electrical wires from the sidewalks and only keep those for trolleybuses, creating a project similar to that of Mexico City or Ontario in Canada. Where there is a "clean" network. @@ZombieTomato

[@matejlieskovsky9625]

​@@CrusaderSports250not exactly the same - trams need one wire, trolley buses need two. This makes the system a lot more complicated. We are getting these mixed systems in Prague, but it requires somewhat specific conditions for it to not get replaced by trams.

[@MrTechfreak95]

Thanks for covering that, even the German Press did their best to bash Electric buses and EVs.

[@freas8520]

The same in Sweden

[@Bimmer_i4_M50]

The German press is in general absolut trash when it comes to EVs.

[@tnickknight]

Tell the truth is bash. They had massive problems with the EV busses in Gdansk Poland, and we love to over hype e everything green

[@JoeyBlogs007]

Batteries might need heater pipes underneath to keep at optimal temperature.

[@mattbosley3531]

Sodium ion batteries are coming out now which work much better in cold temperatures than lithium ion batteries. Hopefully they will allow the buses to work better in your area.

[@Avlec1000]

Great video nice to get a more rounded view of what happended.

[@Smart.Potato]

Great video Bjorn. I would suggest do a series of videos from topics like myths of Evs or something similar.

[@AQDuck]

My town in northern Sweden started using electric buses last summer and in the winter of all seasons they decided now would be a good time to replace 80% of their fleet with them and decommission the old diesel buses. They couldn't handle -25c and were shutdown until March, leaving just a few diesel and a couple electric ones (which was active for maybe a couple hours in a couple days of the week).

[@brettrace]

Two words to fix all the problems with charging: swappable batteries. Standardized pre-charged batteries swapped by a robot in a standardized bay. This also addresses the intense charging cycle that degrades battery service life. Batteries wouldn't need to be rapidly charged, saving the grid and preventing charging fires caused by insanely high charging amperages.

[@boggisthecat]

They aren’t “failing”. They use more power for heating during very cold weather. That reduces range, which basically means more busses are required, faster charging, and/or more battery capacity. Electric trams have been used from well before ICE transport, and they work fine. Busses have the drawback of having to carry the energy around with them, and it is (presently) faster to dump a liquid fuel into a tank than charge a battery.

[@soyreeng8864]

My city still uses those old-school electric buses that use those metal hooks to connect to the city electric power cables. But only usable in downtown area. But they sill running since the 80s. And even in-40c they run

[@Ranbo5]

thanks for providing the actual facts that the "media" missed or ignored.

[@Tuppoo94]

My city in Finland has many electric buses, and I haven't heard of any problems. Services seem to be running just fine. The biggest problem seems to be slippery conditions, which sometimes causes buses (EV or not!) to get stuck when going uphill.

[@silverify]

they stuck because batteries are heavy.. but not admitting..

[@bradallen1832]

Are they all wheel drive with snow tires? I get the impression a lot of bus systems are not run by high quality demands, and they cheap out, getting only rear wheel drive, without sophisticated all wheel drive traction control systems and high quality snow and ice tires.

[@Tuppoo94]

@@silverify They get stuck because the roads are covered in snow and ice. Heavy batteries actually help with traction.

[@Tuppoo94]

@@bradallen1832 I don't think I've ever heard of AWD buses. For most of the year RWD gets the job done. Studded snow tires can't be used because the buses are very heavy, and the studs would rip the streets apart. Unstudded winter tires are used, but then the buses get stuck sometimes.

[@123jeez]

Not just Norway. In Denmark, specially Aarhus, the "Letbane"-train isn't running whenever it snows.. The new electric busses in Horsens, Denmark also fails when temps going under +5C....

[@blinder2786]

”Livets hårda skola” hahaha glad to hear that it’s a joke in Norway too. In Finland it’s ”elämämkoulu”. Almost half of HSL’s buses in the Helsinki region are electric (mostly BYD and Yutong) and there hasn’t been any major problems temperature-wise. The only problem drivers and some passengers have brought up is the coldness of the cabin.

[@ПётрПроценко-б3к]

Thanks for the bus ABC!🚌

[@shhmule]

They had to build that huge big charging depot just for the new buses? Just use Diesel, the pumps are everywhere! Nothing wrong with Diesel.

[@Simon-dm8zv]

yeah really funny..

[@thalesofmiletus2966]

Anecdotal from my brother who is a bus driver in Scotland. The drivers have been told to keep the heating off in winter as it drains the battery too much. (not as cold as Scandinavia) and the drivers are told to switch off the lighting inside the bus after a set time. All this can be monitored from the depot and drivers have been contacted and told to switch off lighting and heating. All this to extend the range of the electric bus and keep it on the road. Unfortunately most people who use the bus are elderly and a dim cold bus in winter isn't pleasant.

[@9jang]

I would love to see you review Bangkok's new electric bus from Smart Bus Co.,Ltd.

[@Axter6]

I have also read that a Canadian city had similar issues with their electric buses. My town has electric buses, locally manufactured, and I haven’t heard anything bad about them. At least in the news, drivers might have issues who knows

[@jamesphillips2285]

Looked up the problems Edmonton is having. Apparently the manufacturer (Proterra) went bankrupt: so it is hard to get parts. Guy from the union was complaining the seat was not adjustable enough as well.

[@Timberland1963]

I know that Edmonton in Alberta, Canada bought some electric buses, 40 or 60 depending on the source and they may not have received all of them. At least half of them are out of service for various reasons and the manufacturer has filed for bankruptcy. Edmonton can have temperatures as cold as -35 for a daytime high and colder at night and that can go on for weeks. Not a great place for any kind of equipment to be running. There’s also been a succession of rather useless city councils and mayors that don’t seem to know what they are doing. For example the airport is quite a distance from the city and that became part of the argument when they wanted to shut down the municipal airport in the city. The mayor at the time fixed the problem by changing the mileage signs to reflect distance to the boundaries of the city instead of the city centre. Yes they spent money changing mileage signs for this purpose. People like that really don’t have the intelligence to make a decision on buying a fleet of buses. They probably got them at a very good going out of business sale price. So Edmonton has buses that have to operate in a harsh environment without access to any spare parts.

[@dmitripogosian5084]

@@Timberland1963 Edmonton international airport (that is the one that is far from the city) was opened in 1960 (and land put aside in 1955). So you are fighting 60 year old war here. Not sure who was the mayor back then. Moreover, actually, the city almost reached the airport since it was built, and also it takes just 35 minutes from my house north of Edmonton to the airport that is south of Edmonton, 46 km overall distance (yes, not by bicycle :) ) Main discussion with municipal airport shutdown was about where medivac flights would land. But its presence was putting limits on building heights since downtown was in a flight path, and did not operate commercial flights since mid 90-s. Not to mention I do not recall a single mileage sign between the airport and city boundary :) I'll check on my next visit to YEG.

[@bradallen1832]

I bet the locals know their local needs and engineered appropriately.

[@juliogonzo2718]

Freind of mine was involved with Toronto Transit trials of electric busses. Think they had 10 byd, 10 proterra, 10 new flyer busses. They charged them with a diesel generator because the infrastructure didn't exist to put grid connected charging stations. No idea if that's still the case it was years ago now. Kinda funny though everyone thinking they are saving the planet riding electric busses when they are charged by massive diesel generator

[@grahamariss2111]

The electric buses are working fine in Gothenburg just a couple of hundred km to south of you. However the equipment they appear to be using is Siemens.

[@cyberpunk59]

The trolleybus existed for more than a century now, but I guess it's better to make the worst choices at every step of conception

[@lesbendo6363]

Thank you, Merry Christmas! 🇨🇦

[@EnjoyFirefighting]

thing is only the newly ordered busses have issues. People seem to forget that they were using electric busses in Oslo for years already

[@DarrylZubot]

My local city Edmonton, Alberta, Canada spent millions on electric buses, most have failed in the cold weather, range way less then expected, and the company who made them (Proterra) filed for bankruptcy so the electric buses, about 60, are sitting in a warehouse waiting for parts to fix them that they may never get.

[@hans-ts7xm]

Hej Björn.. . Look at Oslo Temperature this week its going down to - 22.°C hejdor från Bräcke Jämtland 🇸🇪 Arnd I love your reports👍

[@manofwar556]

They have Electric buses here in Reykjavik. The problem here was that the heaters in winter were taking all the power from the battery's, they had to put gas powered heaters in them.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Did they have simple resistive heater elements or proper heat pumps?

[@manofwar556]

@@MikkoRantalainen Heat pumps I think, they were put on the roof of the buses and you could hear them when they were on.

[@paal.skodjevaag]

Broom.no probably knows what the cause is, but they choose not to say everything they know. Quite common by broom.no when talking about electric vehicles.

[@jonchalk3855]

Batteries in the Electric buses in Edmonton AB also failed from cold weather. The company that provided the buses filed for bankruptcy recently and this is causing difficulties in obtaining parts.

[@runedahl1477]

Electric busses are bad during winter conditions and ice on the roads. Here in Bodø they bought those long busses that are jointed on the middle (leddbuss) during the winter they get stuck on roads going uphill and block the road for everybody else. The problem is there because these busses only have rear wheel drive and has a tendency to scissor. Then they have to call the tow truck and take out some diesel busses to replace these electrical wonders. It was definitely a bad decision to use electric busses in Bodø. They might work better in places with little snow and a flat landscape. By the way I am not a hater of electric cars. In fact I have one my self.

[@EngineersFear]

So the problem isn't that they're electric but that they're loosing traction then

[@simonm1447]

When I went to school 25 years ago the same buses were used just with Diesels, and they also have just one driven axle. So the problem is not the electric drivetrain but the fact this buses are just 6x2, where you cannot expect a miracle in traction when it's icy

[@runedahl1477]

Here in Bodø it is the traction that is causing the problems. The temperature often switches between minus degrees to plus degrees and that causes very slippery roads even if they salt or sand. Busses with front wheel drive or even better all wheel drive would have been better. An other factor might be that some of the drivers are from countries further south and may not be enough familiar driving on winter roads in Norway.

[@runedahl1477]

@@simonm1447 It is a problem with all rear wheel vehicles. My first car was a used Ford Granada with rear wheel drive. It was very good for driving in the summer but a nightmare on winter roads. I got so sick and tired being stuck everywhere even if I had a sack of 50 kg of cement as ballast in the trunk. All my cars after that have been with four wheel drive.

[@simonm1447]

@@runedahl1477 however the 6x2 has an additional disadvantage over the 4x2 bus since it has to pull a sort of trailer and is heavier with just one driven axle. Adding a second drive axle is not that expensive for EVs, since it's mechnanically simpler compared to ICE vehicles. So you could easily build a 6x4 bus.

[@atillathehungry3145]

So the standard range is 250 miles. Not with constant stopping and starting to pick up passengers with the door opening and closing while the heater is running. There really is a whole lot of pro EV propaganda out there.

[@lanceareadbhar]

There will be articles like this for years to come. EVs are not perfect as they have drawbacks, but they are not nearly as bad as some would have you believe, especially once people become more familiar with them so they can come up with better standard operating procedures to avoid problems that could have easily been prevented.

[@EngineersFear]

The biggest problem of EVs is that they're new. And many people don't like new. They like to see new failing. That's why every single EV fail is covered in attention economics. Addition: 10000 fossil cars catch on fire each year in Germany alone. Yet most incidents don't make it past local media. Broken chargers in Norway make it around the globe.

[@mikenance-c2h]

Am wondering how many EV's drowned in California last week and how the insurance companies going to react ?

[@heronimousbrapson863]

Back in the '60's, busses in Vancouver, British Columbia were often parked in outdoor parking compounds, due to the mild winter weather that usually occurs there. During one particularly cold winter, however, with temperatures dropping to 0 F., The diesel-powered busses couldn't be started, wreaking havoc on the transportation system.

[@russellseaton2014]

Starting diesel engines in the cold is a known issue worldwide. So diesel engines usually come with an engine block heater installed. Just plug the electric cord sticking out the front of the grill in when it is cold and the engine is preheated overnight. Easier to start in the morning.

[@ubermenschen3636]

Thx for clarifying this slander against all electric buses.

[@jo_magpie]

Ruter has 10.000 daily departures, 90 canceled departures are barely felt. Oh, no, I have to wait 5 minutes instead of 3 for the bus😂

[@-_James_-]

If a bus fails to turn up at my place, I have to wait for at least an hour until the next bus to Oslo.

[@mlevesque33]

Thx for the info Bjørn.

[@erikziak1249]

Do you know that you can put overhead wires above the routes where those buses run and trolley poles on the buses and you have unlimited range, no charging downtime and no dedicated charging infrastructure.

[@enryfrafranci]

I live in turin, we have 130 or so byd busses, and man they are some of the best busses, still haven't seen one broken down on the side of the road...

[@davidwild66]

We have winter in Australia. Sometimes it lasts for several minutes.

[@HM19731]

A bus driver told me they have / had problems in Tromsø. They couldn't get up the speed, so they could get up the hills . I don't know more then that .Probably the problems are solved, since this was a year or two since i heard about this .

[@unclezeppy]

I asked BYD guys who work with electric dump truck development do they have a mountain to test the truck and they said: “Of course, BYD is surrounded by mountains, the best of course is the Wutong mountain, it is 1 km high and easy to reach.” The funny thing is the eastern side of Shenzhen is full of mountains and tunnels so they have several thousand dump trucks operating there, but the west side is quite flat so they still use the diesel. If you look at the population density it should be the opposite.

[@OldGuyAdventure]

When I lived in Winnipeg, the buses had sanders for the rear wheels because of ice and slippery roads, much like what they do for rail when the rail line gets iced. I think this may work with your buses slipping. Transport around a city makes sense with Electric and light rail. And to have a rail system between communities. Years ago, in Canada, many cities had trolly rail, and they removed them; they could have kept the system and been ahead of the curve to move away from cars in cities. Canada is just getting into EV adoption; most people will struggle with the cost. The Canadian Government only offers a maximum of $5000 rebate on the purchase of an EV; this hardly covers the taxes on a $40000 vehicle. Also, many places in Canada do not have any transit or rail system, so people either have to move to cities or figure out some other method of transport. The factor that governs living in a city is employment; often, you do not have a choice on where you live because your house is far from your work.

[@alan4sure]

Edmonton Alberta, Canada bought a whole fleet of them and had too many problems. Got rid of them.

[@calescapee9642]

Frozen Batteries don't work.

[@conservativemike3768]

Only time I’ve used a bus in the last 40 yrs was in the U.K. (Cambridge and central London). The double-deckers are fun.