Electrical Work: Wiring for my American Rotary Phase Converter

[@Comm0ut]

RPCs are vital to running 3-phase equipment and this video is VERY much on-topic! Many areas charge commercial rates to run three phase which can be very expensive even for commercial shops. OTOH a freestanding RPC can be run from any appropriate receptacle or can be wired in. The Practical Machinist forums have many professionals running RPCs. Many otherwise skilled people are intimidated by electricity despite the level of knowledge required to interact usefully with professionals being modest. Many home services are maxed out so running a new shop service can be a good way to go (and if either needs work you still have power to one). I choose free standing (my American Rotary is on a wheeled skid I fabbed, it's easy work) to match all my machinery which is set of for easy rearrangement as I acquire equipment. There's no downside to making everything mobile including my lathe and mill for which I fabbed simple stable bolt-on outrigger arms with scaffolding casters. The same gear that lets me easily move my equipment is what got it home safely without paying a rigger.

[@WillyBemis]

Very helpful. I installed a used 3hp phase converter to power jointers and a grinder in my garage. It was a fun and relatively project, and really good to get those tools running. It also opened up a lot of possibilities as far as other tools go, so naturally I acquired some more and larger 3-phase tools. Now I have a 10hp converter that I need to install for my barn later this spring. That installation has gone nowhere for a while, but your work is inspiring me!

[@odinsprophet8849]

How’d your install go? I’ve had a ten hp converter sitting, waiting for me.

[@greyghostkoga]

Keith, for me, and I'm sure a lot others, there is no need to apologize for no machining content. This is all part of it, and some VERY GOOD information!

[@donaldshulman6771]

Keith - you are making progress. Each video has something new. Can't wait to see the completed shop!

[@greyghostkoga]

Technically, a shop is never completed. LOL!

[@franzstreule]

I think it is just amazing how infrastructure differs from one country to another. Greetings from Switzerland

[@encorepermian]

Going to get an AM Rotary and was so happy to see you had a video

[@danmetzger5583]

I always enjoy the shop-build videos. Can't wait to visit in person. See you 3 weeks from tomorrow!

[@yambo59]

Its really been something watching your new shop come along from scratch, you've gotten so much done and im know its been a ton of work and expense -, but wow what a shop you have already, really gonna be something when its done.

[@llsdigitek]

Loved the tour Keith and really enjoy your channel!

[@edgarel847]

I have a Ca Master T3 Converter. But I'm missing the transformer or power module, is there a substitute???

[@tek4]

I learned something new today.. I always thought it was simply a (rotary phase converter) single phase motor driving a 3 phase generator motor to produce the power. looking at the science behind this, it makes alot of sense that a single 3 phase motor with the correct switching components, would generate the 3rd leg, and maintain 120* phase sync, like a transformer. damn.. like a smack on the head

[@danhale4926]

Thanks for another great video Mr. Keith!

[@chevy6299]

A million dollar shed when you get done Keith. =)

[@dirk4926]

I enjoyed the little electrical tour.

[@adwol]

Just to clarify that with single phase, they only run one of the phases to your house, not two. The two legs you get are split 180 degrees through a transformer. Each phase of a 3 phase supply is 120 degrees from the other (208 volts line-line vs 240)

[@Landrew0]

3-phase power is superior to single-phase in nearly every respect. It creates a virtual "rotating field" which makes it much easier for electric motors to start and run. Single-phase electric motors usually require a starter of some sort, and don't run nearly as efficiently.

[@jdgower1]

adwol, Truth. I kinda cringed a bit when Keith mentioned "two phase" at one point in the vid, but I know it was inadvertent and not worth me looking like a troll for making a point of calling him out on it. It's easy for folks to confuse the number of "legs" on a circuit, to the number of phases on the circuit. However, the term "phase" refers to the potential difference between different legs - not the number of legs involved. It takes two legs to make single phase, and all you'll ever get from two legs is single phase. Leg A to Leg B is one phase. On a three leg circuit, you can have A-B, A-C, and B-C - three phases, which is coincidentally, the number of legs. True two phase has four legs separated in pairs A-B and C-D. Some parts of, primarily, Canada still uses this. Also, a few other places. The typical single phase supply to a residential or light commercial installation is not the same as just picking two legs of a three phase circuit - Like you said, it is derived from one hot leg running through a distribution transformer with a ground reference on the other side of the high side coil. The low side (center tapped to ground) coil produces two hot legs, 180 degrees apart with a current carrying ground reference from the center tap, which is used as the neutral for both secondary hot legs. In this way, it is hella lot more efficient for the utility company as compared to running two high side legs 120 degrees apart.

[@Landrew0]

Actually, you are using two of the three wires, so "two-phase" isn't out of line.

[@adwol]

The two hot wires in his case come from one of the three phases.

[@VintageMachinery]

The two phase comment was a total slip of the tongue. I know that two phase is totally different.

[@mfletch392]

Thanks for the update its coming on a treat

[@tinkermouse-scottrussell3738]

Nice work Keith getting there, good content.

[@douglastedder1694]

nice work Keith. pretty satisfying to look at a cleanly done and well executed electrical job.

[@ponderstibbons3718]

Great Job! Highly praised, who ever decided to make 3-Phase standard in germany.

[@mentone35984]

35+ licensed master electrician. Good job man. i might have done it a bit different, but this is OK.

[@rayeddy528]

I am in Virginia , in Wise County! Here when ODP disconnects my power for anything , we can Not get power restored until we have an inspection. Old Dominion Power requires that when they cut power you MUST pay an inspection fee and get inspection. And after you take inspection report to their office and then ODP will come out and reconnect !! Be safe and God bless you!!!!

[@VintageMachinery]

And that is what I had to do as well. The County had to come out and inspect before I could get turned back on.

[@johnferguson7235]

It is better to have a service with 100 amp too much than 1 amp too little. I thought that you would be upgrading the service at some point. It happened sooner than I expected and I'm sure that you won't regret spending the money now. Thanks for the update and the information.

[@charlescompton4495]

Thanks Keith; one of my ham radio friends sent me a diagram of a do it yourself "rotary converter" system. Of course it won't run near as many devices as your system. Hope it works out well for you in the new shop. Greg

[@shawnmrfixitlee6478]

AWESOME , You need the 3 pole power to make big chips ..LOL!! Looking like a big step to the shop build , Thumbs up Keith ..

[@notsofresh8563]

You know when that outside panel will be really useful? When you build the shed for the compressor and the hvac/dust collection equipment next to the meters to get the noise out of that echo filled shop.

[@notsofresh8563]

I musta walked away from the computer when you said exactly this right in the video.......Coffee must not be working this morning..?

[@VintageMachinery]

That is the plan. I hope to put a compressor out there real soon....

[@byrnejr]

looks good Keith

[@tinwizard6447]

Great! Answered all the questions I had from the previous episode.

[@dougankrum3328]

Here in Sacramento, Calif.....Single phase to 3 phase....100 amps.....where the prices start at.... Minimum of 75 horse power usage at 40 hours a week....that doesn't include any poles or wiring/meter panel....But you're correct....sometimes you're just too far away from 3 phase that power company will not install the extra service.... Like the rural property I just bought....1/2 mile from nearest 3 phase....but I have 240 V single phase at 200 amps....and an old ARCO 10 horse rotary converter.....

[@robertstingley1867]

As you run machines off of your converter they add power to your grid after they start. I have a similar system with a 15hp converter, never had a problem.

[@snoozinglion8596]

Great explanation Keith Thanks for sharing!

[@markbernier8434]

Great to see your progress. Just a thought, around here when the power goes out it can be a good while before it comes back. Maybe when you build the doghouse for the converter and compressor leave room for a generator too. A manual transfer switch would be easy to put on the wall. Having one saved my butt a few years back .

[@kerrygleeson4409]

Always good Keith

[@bametje88]

The crazy thing is even a Cabin or Cottage can get 3 phase here in the EU :D Makes life cheaper and easier for the ones who wanto have a shop.

[@robertkutz]

keith looking good.

[@tridium-go6hw]

Keith, you probably already know this, but your rotary convertor (from the mfgr's literature) still passes through the single-phase power (voltage from L1 to L2) even when the convertor is off. Shutting down the convertor only kills L3. If you try to start a machine before starting the convertor it will single-phase and could damage the motor. Not an issue if you make sure the convertor is running prior to starting any equipment. Also, as you probably know, the convertor will only properly feed delta-connected equipment (stuff that doesn't need a neutral). If you try to feed wye-connected equipment, the voltages will be wrong. Plain 'ol motors should be fine. Oh, and great job! Keep 'em coming!

[@VintageMachinery]

Yes and Yes.

[@Pow3llMorgan]

I have a friend who is an electrician and has been doing some work in the US (We're both Danes), and he still has nightmares about it. Apparently, in the eyes of most people in the trade over here, American * electrical code is mostly a joke. He says he is geniunely perplexed that more houses don't burn down regurlarly because of bad installations. I showed him this and he wasn't triggered. He said it looks very good! * I realize (or I believe, at least) electrical code is state by state governed and some might be fine but some is definitely not quite *

[@Blazer02LS]

In many places in the US you only need to have the initial installation inspected. Anything added after that is not. I remember being told by an inspector in the 80's how to guarantee a pass. Install the meter panel. install the main panel, install ONE outlet within 3 feet of the main panel and ONE switched light near the panel and STOP. Have that inspected and you were done with inspections.

[@buckhorncortez]

Not true. The National Electrical Code (NEC) is the basis for every local building code for electrical service. Local building codes may add more stringent requirements, but they can never be less than the NEC. The NEC is quite comprehensive - you might try getting a copy and reading it. There is no reason "houses should burn down" - obviously they don't on a regular basis - so, the NEC works just fine. It covers everything from basic design to installation requirements and includes high and low voltage and even fiber optic. Your friend must not be familiar with the NEC, or a real pussy...

[@rtkville]

Thanks Keith I'm lovin it....

[@dale436]

The American Rotary discount code appears to only apply to the higher end line of converters (AD and ADX) not the standard AR series units. You also need to purchase a complete turnkey unit to get the discount. If you already have a motor like I do and just wanted the converter panel you're out of luck there as well.

[@jusb1066]

amazing you can get a 400a amp service, my house and workshop has to share a 50a total service...im one of the rare garage workshops that has proper wiring and a 40a circuit, compared to a couple neighbours who are at the end of a 13a circuit and blow fuses all the time with normal equipment use, i can at least run a heater and a drill at the same time! be good to get that doghouse up soon, hiding the compressor outside will save your sanity too!

[@VintageMachinery]

I cannot imagine only having 50 amps in my house! That would not even run an air conditioner unit - a must have for summers in South Georgia!

[@WobblycogsUk]

Wow, that's a lot of power. I've got 100A @ 240V into my shop and I think that's a lot, you've got double that! In the UK at least you will struggle to get 3-phase power supplied to a residential address. I've got 3-phase but when I spoke to the electric company about getting the meter moved they were pushing hard to downgrade the service to single phase.

[@jusb1066]

my entire house supply is 50a, the workshop pairs off that, is fused to 40a, but seeing as most peoples double garage usually runs off a 13a spur, at least i can use two things at once!

[@johnferguson7235]

Don't forget how hot it gets in Georgia. The electrical service to most homes in the US is greater because of air conditioning. You can't live and get much down during a hot and humid summer day in Georgia without air con; 30°C - 40°C and 75%+ humidity. And it goes on and on like that day after day. It's much the same across the American Southeast.

[@VintageMachinery]

Amen. It is hard to survive without air conditioning around here. I lived in a house a few years without it when I was a kid. Talk about long hot and sweaty nights rolling around on the bed under a fan. Not fun..... Ain't going back to that again (at least not voluntarily...)

[@austin3538]

Nice job

[@milesmcdonald4367]

My back hurts thinking about digging that trench

[@aserta]

Thanks for helping out!

[@StreuB1]

Thanks Miles!!!! You're one of the hero's behinds the scenes helping Keith get this milestone accomplished. Good on you AND you get to put some bucks in the pocket. For a college student, we all know thats helps!

[@elsdp-4560]

THANK YOU...for sharing.

[@ratman396]

I've comment on this before. Here's the deal on 3 phase in the US. You can't even get it unless you a near a major main road. Where I used to live you could not even get it up there. I MIGHT be able to get it where I live now because I'm 400 feet off a main read. But even if they will run it I would pay a bill that STARTS at $10,000 a month

[@ratman396]

Doug, My Dad was a construction supervisor for many years and he did a school that had 480V three phase in it and he was told it was $10,000 for just the base bill. I've heard that other places too. That's one reason why phase converters are popular despite the high initial cost. It pays for itself fast

[@joetri1970]

How do you use pass though lugs as a disconnect you would have to unwire it to disconnect that won't work in my state you have to have a switch ,lever,pullout,or a plug to be used as one.

[@joetri1970]

Now if you use breakers on all the wires coming out it will work and you can't have more then 7 mains and nothing using a neutral 220 /110 or 110 can be feed from it since it is main lug feed.

[@Lakesidearmorer]

It appears as there is a main breaker (maybe 200 amp) at the top which isolates the bus bars to the pass through.

[@dougankrum3328]

there's a 200 amp breaker at the top of that panel/box..........

[@VintageMachinery]

As others have pointed out, there is a 200 amp main breaker at the top of the panel and pass through lugs beneath it. When you switch off the main breaker, it shuts off the power at the pass through lugs. Can't speak for your state, but it is fine here.

[@fredyearian4968]

I would definitely have a remote starting of the convertor. Do not use the feeding breakers for routinely turning it on and off... it is hard on the breakers to be used as a switch. Hopefully the convertor has a motor starter that you can run it when you need it and avoid the wasted energy. You can rig up three way switches at each machine that use 3 phase so you can start the convertor from any of the machines.

[@VintageMachinery]

There is a switch on the front of the RPC to turn it on and off - the breaker stays on. I have ordered a remote switch so that I can have that part inside the shop. That will be installed as soon as it arrives.

[@TechGorilla1987]

Back in my sparky days, we called this a "class 320 service" I think the meter base is actually called a class 320 meter base.

[@BigRalphSmith]

Nice avatar!

[@TechGorilla1987]

+BigRalphSmith Thanks! ;) Yeah, it just popped up in the avatar choices on the day I was setting up my KZbin page. I liked it because it seems soothing to me. I cannot be bothered to change it to something custom yet.

[@ericelam1014]

That is the best way to use the rotary phase converter by wiring into a 3phase breaker panel. Here is a cheat! Wire into the 3 phase breaker panel with the two incoming single phase power legs/ LINE IN, they should be wired into the two outer Runs in the 3 phase breaker Panel, then from a breaker of sufficient size wire the two live single phase legs into the static starter, from there you will have three legs coming out to the 3 Phase Rotary Motor, use a small gang box and mount it near the static starter and run all three legs into it, in the gang box, tie in a fourth wire to the high leg coming through and take that extra high leg back to the 3 phase breaker panel and wire into the center row in the panel, between the two 110 volt low legs that you wired previously. Back to the gang box, run the original high leg and the two low legs directly to the rotary converter. I do it this way for a reason: Once I start up my largest 3 phase machine and have it up and running, I then turn off my rotary converter and the 3 phase machine stays running and is now feeding 3 phase power back to my 3 phase breaker panel. I can run smaller 3 phase equipment off of my larger equipment's motor that is now became a rotary converter and is back feeding the 3phase breaker panel, use the 2 to 1 ratio for horse power when doing this, my larger machine has a 15hp motor it can start up a 7.5 hp easily and once I start that 7.5hp machine up I now have 22.5hp feeding back into the breaker panel. I save on electricity and wear and tear on my rotary converter by operating my shop this way. I also wired 3phase to a 50KVA transformer and doubled my 3phase 230volts to 460volts and run a 460volts machine that way. I also have a hack for hard starting air compressors. The small copper line leading to the pop off valve, take it off and add a small 1 gallon air tank run that copper line into it on a T and continue to the pop off valve. What this does is gives the electric motor a few more revolutions/ a running start with no load hitting the head of the pump. When the motor turns on to pump air it will have to fill the small 1 gallon tank first before the one way valve kicks in with the higher pressure of the main tank. This hack saves on electricity by not spiking the power meter and helps the electric motor last much longer. GOD BLESS.

[@RaysGarage]

Hello Keith, Looks like you have a well thought out electrical system and its coming together very nice! I'll be hitting up Stan as well once I get to that point in my new shop build, unfortunately I will only have a 100 amp service in the shop, It was about 10K more to get a 200 amp service, way outside of my budget! Looking forward to seeing you at the Bash! Best Regards, Ray

[@VintageMachinery]

Wow, 10K to go from 100 amp to 200 amp? My power company upgraded me for free - even gave me the 400 amp meter base.....

[@RaysGarage]

Welcome to California, not to mention I have spent over 6K between city and planning fees and don't have building permits yet, its been over 4 months to boot!

[@billelkins994]

@@VintageMachinery They just like the idea of you sending them mo' money.

[@docpedersen7582]

Looking good. Only thing I would have done differently would be to have the input breaker on the rotary phase converter on the inside wall next to your three phase panel. As wired it requires you to go outside to turn on phase converter. Also to turn it off. I can just see forgetting to turn it off... Ouch power bill!

[@VintageMachinery]

There is a switch on the phase converter that turns it on and off. You don't use the breaker as the switch.... Right now the switch is on the phase converter but I have a remote switch ordered that I will be able to use inside the shop to turn it on and off.

[@StreuB1]

We're gettin there!!! Thanks Keith!!!! SPECIAL THANKS to Miles for the trenching and all the Patreon supporters!!! Like Keith said, all you viewers who "toss a buck in the hat" are enabling these KZbin creators to take their channels to the next level and we ALL will reap the benefits from that. So, thank you!!!

[@ricko5123]

Keith, I realize it's been years since doing the APC 40hp upgrade but I have some questions. You said the power brought in more power to get you to 400amp 1ph. Approximately what did they charge you to do this back then? You said they also provided the load center or panel to give you 2 x 200amps per side. Did they charge you for that as well and approximately how much $? I'm assuming they upgraded meter as well? I'm in the middle of changes to my electrical here in SoCal at my home since closing down my machine and metal fab shop. I'm building my shop on my back lot just over am acre and until it's ready I'm using my garage which is fairly large but lacks the power. My home is now 43 years, it's a R1 property and only has 100 Amp 1ph 240 so I'm working with my electrical provider as we speak. 3ph is to far off from me up in the hills here so 1ph will have to be via a converter. I'm good with the Phase converters and transformer equipment but just wondering if you were charged a fee and Approximately how much. Thx Keith. RickO

[@dimitrijusseliuginas4420]

Hi, you try run three-phase sensible electronics on your rotary phase converter as sample 3phase tig welder

[@michelsimard1065]

More angey pixies!

[@jeffmoss26]

nice wiring work!

[@doctwiggenberry5324]

why didn't you plan and wire where your 3 phase would go instead of running conduit over that beautiful wood? just asking

[@born2flyau]

Keith, In Australia we have in country areas what is called a SWER Line, "Single Wire Earth Return". It is a single wire on the power pole that has a transformer attached to it at the customers address that can convert it to single or Three Phase power depending on the customers requirements. Also does a phase converter require more power to run it than is actually put out to the customers needs. Eg: if a machine requires 20 amps 3 phase power to run a machine does it also require a few more amps to do the conversion from single to 3 phase?

[@WILSON.1]

How is the noise level? I'm thinking about installing one of these, but don't want to disturb my neighbors who are about 500 feet away.

[@Spiderelectron]

Nice one!

[@jeffseese1263]

How much current does your phase converter consume while it's running with no 3 phase load?

[@realvanman]

Did your inspector catch the error in the first outside panel? The grounds are not supposed to be tied to the neutral buss in that panel, but rather on the ground buss, in the upper left hand corner. Same goes for all other panels. The meter section is correctly connected.

[@VintageMachinery]

Yes, I changed that.

[@PetrosArgy]

That's a local power company decision. Here in PA in PECO and PPL territories each main panel (in Keith's case the outdoor one by the meter and the indoor one adjacent to the meter) would need to have the neutrals and grounds bonded and there would NOT be a ground in the meter socket. I believe the discrepancy has to do with whether the power company considers the meter to be a disconnect or not since code requires the ground-neutral bond to be at the first disconnect.

[@michaelm2716]

Hi Keith, In Australia we have different supply voltages, but the question I would like to ask is when you run your supplies to your machines do you need to have them plug in or can they be wired with a c/breaker in the switchboard and a local isolator at each machine where they are hardwired connected. Of course this would stop a plug and play from the outlet but it may be cheaper than a plug for each machine and 3 phase switched wall outlet at each machine group. I am. It sure whether you need switched wall outlets on your 3 phase. Very interesting watching how you do electrics in the states, and seeing a phase convert or in action, regards Michael.

[@spider0804]

If you want you could run a 480v bus at the top of the shop and run wires to breakers on the bus. Pretty sure wiring to the breaker is fine as long as you have a disconnect directly on the machine.

[@VintageMachinery]

For my system (220v), you are required to have a disconnect at every machine. A plug can serve as a disconnect at this voltage.

[@stevenhardy2898]

In a few weeks I will be making ,in batch mode , a few hundred feet of pine door casing. Wish I could find free transport from Maryland . I would send you 4-5 13 feet pices.

[@VintageMachinery]

That would be nice!

[@comput3rman77]

I always thought a 3 phase converter was just a single phase motor connected to a 3 phase alternator. Thanks for the education.

[@bcbloc02]

They call that setup a motor generator.

[@kc8bdr]

I thought that as well.

[@michaelm2716]

Hi Keith, just another question about your voltages, your 3phase is 220v across phases or 440 volts..3 phase in Australia is 415volts across phases however with 240v variable speed motors they run on 220v 3 phase. Regards Michael

[@VintageMachinery]

110 per leg and 220 across phases.

[@apogeedetail]

Is the unit loud? How much does it weigh?

[@williambullock641]

The green wire going to panel looks like it is parallel with white wire which makes it a current carrying conductor not to code .

[@joeshmoe5935]

Keith, I have 3 phase lines 200 ft in front of my shop. I 'm zoned light ag. Both my neighbors have 3 phase. How much hassle and $$$ expense wise you think for me to get 3 phase? what you have is my plan B. How much you think the power company will charge me for those 2 extra transformers? So far I don't even know what # to call to ask for the service.

[@wadehicks9270]

Dang I hate three phase isn't available close to you that's great though your able to have a converter to make up for it.

[@ryancl03]

how much current will it supply realistically? does it vary under load at all?

[@jamesrobinson7108]

rolling rolling keep them dogies rolling / hurry we are waiting

[@jeffbower1880]

So did it pass inspection on the first go round?

[@xenonram]

Was the separate 3-phase panel a change during condition u? I'm just wondering why you said, "... I'll run conduits to drops for each machine around the shop." Why are you running conduit now, which I assume you're going to surface mount it, rather than having done it during construction with it inside the wall cavity? Just curious.

[@milesmcdonald4367]

Andrew Delashaw allows for mobility in the future if machines need to be moved because it's allot easier to remove screws and move conduit than to take out walls and put them back up.

[@VintageMachinery]

The problem with putting it all in the walls during construction is that you have to be really good at figuring out where all of your machines will be in the planning stage. Heck, I don't even know what machine I might buy next week. With conduit, I can run a drop wherever I need it - and move them if I need to when I decide to re-arrange the shop in a year or two. Plus, with three phase, they don't really make a "Romex" type wire that is made to be put in the walls like single phase - you would still need to put all of that conduit in the walls to run the wires in.

[@billdlv]

Nice work Keith, install looks clean. Maybe consider for the future a 3 phase monitor on the inside of the shop so you know everything is good with the system before you power up equipment? It may be part of or an option on your RPC?

[@FATL0L0]

Grate video

[@MrSleepProductionsInc]

Weird, this service would not pass inspection in my area. (Oklahoma) The inspector would probably drag you out to his car and start reading off code violations! But every area seems to have their own codes even though they all supposedly follow the NEC. 🤔

[@VintageMachinery]

Not sure why it would not pass inspection. Everything is up to code. I passed my inspection just fine last Friday morning.

[@ratman396]

Keith, so that breaker in the mini panel next to your meter base actually feeds nothing right now?

[@Blazer02LS]

Just the pass through to the RPC.

[@VintageMachinery]

The panel next to the meter is just a pass through box. There is a main breaker that serves as a disconnect for everything down line from it. I could put breakers in there if I want to, but I am in essence using it as a disconnect. As crazy as it sounds, it is cheaper than a disconnect that does the exact same thing.

[@scummyinoz]

gday why dont u have gutters? put it in rainwater tanks and then u got water for the shop and to use with a pressure washer and stuff? cheers

[@Alan.livingston]

Onya Miles.

[@Landrew0]

I'm sure you did your homework, but using a rotary vs. a solid-state converter seems like choosing "old technology" over new. Efficiency is much better with solid-state as well. Care to share your reasoning?

[@la05082]

American Rotary is a channel sponsor.

[@johnferguson7235]

He did a video on that subject a while back. Basically it came down to economics. It was cheaper to provide 3 phase to a number of machines from the rotary converter as compared to having a converter installed on each machine.

[@barrygerbracht5077]

My understanding is that solid state will kill 33% of your power. i.e. you will turn a 15 hp motor into a 10 hp motor. You need to have a rotary phase converter to get 100% power output. I had asked Stan Zinkowski about using a VFD as a simple phase converter i.e. disabling the variable frequency part and just using one to generate a 3 phase 60hz output, but he was not inclined to do that. I'm not sure if it was economics or other interests such as sponsorship of the Bash by American rotary but he was inclined that the rotary was the way to go to power multiple machines. If I started to look up 10-15hp VFD's and non-chinese units, the cost savings started to disappear for vfd vs rpc.

[@Phantomthecat]

Barry Gerbracht if you're losing 5HP in the converter, that power has to be dissipated somehow. That much power would melt the unit off the wall. The electronics do consume some power, but not much. Losses are around 2% in a modern VSD.

[@barrygerbracht5077]

+Doug Reed, ALL of the product literature I have read from the manufacturers state that a static phase converter will only give 2/3 power output of a proper rpc. The manufacturers are not sneaky or deceptive about the limitations of a static converter. They state it very clearly on the first info page along with warnings about what you should not use it on, like 90% of the machinery Keith is using. An explanation is here: www.northamericaphaseconverters.com/blog/how-static-phase-converter-works/ I have been looking into phase converters and comparing static vs rotary vs VFD since rotary ones are both inefficient and noisy (they use a lot of power in standby) and very expensive. It is coming to the same point however. RPC seems to be the best for simple power supply. VFD's are complicated and unreliable if you get the e-bay cheap chinesium ones. A Hitachi or other proper unit will cost close to a RPC unit. Static units are garbage. If you are wanting to go that route, pull the motor from the device and change it to a single phase motor.

[@jeffsnipes3298]

That'll be a nice, powerful setup when all hooked up. How long will the discount be offered from American Rotary ? I need to get a converter but need a 220 volt line run to my garage first, and possibly a service upgrade. I'm afraid to see that estimate. Regards -

[@VintageMachinery]

The discount will be good for at least another year. I guess as long as they continue to sponsor my channel!

[@phooesnax]

Where will you turn the converter on and off? Nice work Jim

[@VintageMachinery]

Right now, there is a switch on the unit to turn it on and off. I have a remote switch in the mail to me right now that will allow me to do it inside the shop once I wire it up.

[@ratman396]

oh, are you going to put a remote switch for the converter inside?

[@VintageMachinery]

Yes, I have one coming....

[@fredyearian4968]

Volts times amps is VAR's, not Watts unless you have a purely resistive load.

[@tridium-go6hw]

Actually, I believe volts times amps is just VA (volt-amperes) - VAR is only the reactive component of the total (VA). True though, VAR only exists if the load is reactive - meaning inductive or capacitive.

[@tridium-go6hw]

Or put into more technical terms, VA is "apparent" power and VAR is the imaginary part, the part that does no real work. What's left is true power, the part that does actual work.

[@leonlai668]

How much it cost to installed this phase converter ?

[@newandoldtech5634]

Have you considered solar Power as you might have some free space on the roof?

[@johnferguson7235]

Converting 12V-24V DC to 220 V 3 phase would be very expensive. When you add the cost of the panels plus installation, I am sure that the power company will sell him power at a fraction of the cost.

[@newandoldtech5634]

There are packages that convert solar Power to 1 phase at a lower cost. As Keith has 1 phase it will be considerable cheaper. One example just for a taste www.solaredge.com/products/pv-inverter/single-phase#/

[@johnferguson7235]

Solar can work in jurisdictions where they require the electrical utility to purchase the excess power at a premium. I don't know about the regulations in Georgia. Of course the other problem is that it doesn't generate any power at night and it generates very little power in the mornings and evenings. The payback period is measured in decades. Natural gas and coal are so cheap that it's hard to compete with their cost of electricity.

[@VintageMachinery]

I have considered solar. I have the perfect roof for it. Problem is, right now the up front cost is too high for what savings I could get - the payback on the system is about the same as the expected life of the system. At least in my area where I can't get a big premium for selling the power back to the power company. At some point, the cost of solar will go down to where it is more attractive but for at least my area, it just does not pay.

[@newandoldtech5634]

Always interesting to hear the situation in other countries. Seems to be the same. Things that work cost, almost always a Little more than the benefit.

[@stoparret]

Out of curiosity, what are the budgets for these types of set-ups?

[@VintageMachinery]

You can go to the American Rotary web page and look up prices for specific units.

[@stoparret]

Thanks for the note, but I'm wondering more specifically about the total cost, not just purchasing the unit. How much typically is spent on purchase, shipping, electrical contractor, permitting, etc. I'm curious to know how much people are spending.

[@jimd9511]

Might want to check on the local and NEC codes. You need to be able to kill ALL power to the building from one single spot. No more than six throws of the hand is the rule. As I understand on this video, you can kill power to the outdoor load center my its main breaker. Then you have to go inside and kill the main breaker on that load center. Typically that is not allowed. If you have an emergency, such as a fire, the fire fighters need to kill all power from the outside at one location and NOT have to enter the structure to locate another breaker to turn off to make the location electrically safe for them to enter. The inspector might give you a red tag on this installation.

[@VintageMachinery]

I am sure that this is different from one state to another but that is not the case here. Our firefighters are trained that the first thing they do when they roll up on a house fire is to pull the meter - it is the only way that you can be certain that you are killing all of the power to the structure. And yes, they are trained in how to safely pull a meter and can do it about as fast as you can look for and find disconnects. As for the inspection, it passed just fine - just as it did the first time they inspected it with the disconnect on the inside panel inside the shop.

[@smartstuff101]

Here, we call the power company and they cut it at the pole. Untill then, we’re sol. Most 3phase here has underground meter, we Arnt getting to that either. Of course, residential, we could pull the meter if absolutely necessary

[@aserta]

Don't they have disconnects at the pole? At my country side house (in europe) they have a remote disconnect. I can call them and have them cut it out without them showing up.

[@johnferguson7235]

Only some areas in the US have converted to Smart Meters that support remote operation. Energy was so cheap in the USA that it wasn't worth the cost to install such systems. Metropolitan areas are being upgraded but Keith lives in a sort of rural area. The cutoff in the panel are for the fire department to use in an emergency and to make sure that an electrician can work safely.

[@Blazer02LS]

Only in cities and newer installation areas. In my location most of the electrical overhead was installed in the 40's. Mechanical fuses here and there, and they install those when they add on to the system.

[@VintageMachinery]

Not here. They had to come and physically disconnect the wires from the transformer to cut the lines off going to the shop.

[@limuemu4364]

I nearly fell out when I went to buy a length of wire to install a night street light on my property. I couldn't believe the cost.

[@ricko5123]

I shit my pants as well. Unbelievable today.

[@duanecreativemachine]

Ahh yes. The 3 phase breakers and assorted goodies are a whole different money level.

[@heizung4me]

no ... defintiv no The fuses are the same. 2 EUR/pcs For 3phase you need 3 per machine. ---> 6 EUR totaly For 1phase you need 1 per machine ... but this one is about 3 times the ampere by the same load ----> 2+++ EUR/pcs For normal installation you need for the hole house one switch 3phase/63A/400V. ---> 12 EUR/pcs or 1phase/200 A/230V ----> 80+ EUR/pcs. Inside a 3phase-panel you need thinner wires for less money. I can´t see any reason why 1phase should be cheaper than 3phase. 1phase is a mess.

[@rayeddy528]

Why have power cut before inspection?

[@VintageMachinery]

It is generally a good idea to have your electrical inspection done before you power everything up. You get the inspection to keep from burning the place down - right? Why prove that it won't burn down before you inspect rather than inspect first and prevent the whole thing from going up in smoke?

[@wyrtwister4260]

I think you can buy something similar to a single phase VFD that outputs 3 phase . If so , you would buy one rated for the appropriate hp , for each 3 phase machine . As far as cost , I do not know how this compares to the phase converter you have ? I guess it would partly depend on how many 3 phase machines you have or intend to have ? For the record , there is ( or once was ) such a thing as a 2 phase power . I say a small electric motor , as a kid , that was labeled 2 phase . Not again since . I do not know if it still exists in the USA . Foe all PRACTICAL purposes , it is either single phase or 3 phase . God bless Wyr

[@douglaslodge8580]

Wish I had known you needed 3 phase panels.

[@VintageMachinery]

So do I....

[@jfulton-ak]

Seems odd that you would not just get three phase direct from the power company. I have two data centers and a shop and both we were able to easily get three phase into all three. One of them we did 480 three phase, the other two 208 three phase. Utilizing the phase converter has to introduce loss into the system thereby costing more in the long term. What is the efficiency of that particular unit?

[@ZONNEKAT]

I bought a MEP803 a. generator

[@williamm.2934]

whats the size of the shop

[@VintageMachinery]

42' x 80'

[@ronhutchinson770]

cool !!! 240 v 3ph.

[@BedsitBob]

When you say "2 phase", do you actually mean phase and neutral?

[@BedsitBob]

That's an unusual setup. Here, we usually have either single phase (household supply), or 3 phase (workshop supply)

[@VintageMachinery]

Two phase was a slip when I said it. This is NOT a two phase setup - it is single phase.

[@TheDansana]

And ... your rotary phase converter generates the TWO missing phases.

[@BedsitBob]

@@TheDansana Is it not a single phase motor, driving a 3 phase alternator?

[@TheDansana]

@@BedsitBob That would be called a Motor-Generator. A Rotary Phase Converter uses a capacitor to start a 3 phase motor with a single phase - then the remaining two poles become generators. More capacitors are used to balance the voltages to match the original single phase.

[@diggindiggenit6540]

Would have been nice to have had a look inside the unit, two videos and I just saw the outside nothing on the inside

[@WreckDiver99]

Good luck in the US to get 3phase ANYWHERE in you aren't in an industrial zone. My uncle had 3 phase 300 Feet from his 60 x 80 pole barn...Edison said "NOPE"...Not even if he paid 100% of the costs associated. The ONLY way to get 3 Phase would have been to create a company AND prove he was producing a product that required 3 phase power. They were pretty much not going to budge. :(

[@WreckDiver99]

Municipal owned isn't the same as using somebody like Edison...it just doesn't happen in general. I've known people all over the US and all have said "Cannot get 3 Phase power unless you are zoned Industrial"

[@VintageMachinery]

It depends on your power company. If three phase was an option where I lived, my rural Electric Membership Cooperative would probably hook me up because the customers basically own the power company. But if it were one of the bigger companies, they are generally not as easy to deal with. But, I live too far away for it to be an option so it does not matter.

[@WreckDiver99]

Where I live, we only have the big boys. Heck, even in the Upper Penninsula you can't get 3 Phase without being in an industrial zone...you're lucky that there is "technically" an option, I've never heard of anybody being outside of an "industrial" zone being able to get it...my uncle offered to pay 100% of the costs (it would have been around $50K, and they said "NOPE, you MUST live in a ZONED INDUSTRIAL" or "WORKING FARM AGRICULTURAL" to obtain 3 Phase power...it might have something to do with state laws where I am...and it wouldn't surprise me seeing that Edison and SEMCO own a massive amount of the power in the state. I get the cost side...you'd probably never break even on that hit. Neither would my uncle...he just has lots of $$$ and wants to "stick it to the man" whenever he can. :)