Do Pancakes Violate Code? How Many Conductors can ACTUALLY Fit?

[@williamsnyder6514]

Keep in mind bro 410.20 allows us to use the canopy of a luminaire. I really like your material and we need to make sure the guys learning from us know the true code for the exam.

[@bananainacup]

314.16 which is referred to in 410.20 days that the volume needs to be marked and most canopies on fixtures are not marked

[@williamsnyder6514]

@@bananainacup typically the AHJ will allow us one 12/2 or one 14/2 for vanity fixtures with large canopies regardless of the box fill calculation

[@bananainacup]

@@williamsnyder6514 yeah I mean I’ve never had it fail But it is kinda up to the ahj interpretation

[@darksaint36]

I doubt many inspectors do fill calculations or check if the light will have enough room.

[@Satchmoeddie]

@@darksaint36 Some do, but very rarely on any residential jobs. The workload is crazy and the doper roper inspectors are never the most experienced inspectors on staff.

[@jsimanella]

As others have stated, you really should mention canopy space. No inspector has ever flagged me for a single 12/3 to a pan. We do it when there's no other reasonable option.

[@cameronforbes2649]

yeah he's overthinkging something that's already been addressed. as stated elsewhere (Williamsnyder's comment) UL1598 allows luminaires to have less volume than 314.16. Further, 314.16 apples more to junction boxes and conduit bodies where you can actually determine what goes in. bcuz as you know, you wind up having to put a light dead nutz on a truss.

[@JohnThomas-lq5qp]

Problem that I read was when a 4" what 1/2" deep pancake is surface mounted a majority.of the cubic inch volume of shallow canopies are taken up by the pancake box. They way it was presented it said that a 4" pancake box counting the connector does not have enough volume for even illegal 14/2 type NM cable to feed a wall mounted luminares. In my area one inspector now only accepts UF cable to feed any outdoor luminares. Said NM cable is not rated for damp locations .

[@littlehuey5679]

Most inspectors that I have met use the device’s housing as part of the fill calculation because there is almost no situation where you have a flat cover on a pancake box !

[@cipher1167]

Yes, that is why they allow them. All light fixtures I’ve installed have space for the wires.

[@cgschow1971]

Except for a keyless lampholder.

[@shanesmith8420]

Some light fixtures have a canopy so there's more space therefore legal. However with a blank plate on the box you would be in violation of code

[@davidkahler9390]

It's worth mentioning the existence of saddle boxes. I didn't know they existed until recently, and boy are they so much better for this situation.

[@FishFind3000]

Never heard of them but from one quick Google search there pretty sweet.

[@heronimousbrapson863]

I used pancake boxes on the exterior of my garage, mounting them directly on the surface before the siding was put up. In order to more adequately accomodate the wires of a motion detector controlled light fixture, I was able to use a pancake box extender which screws on to the main pancake box. They are available in many hardware stores.

[@chevlinpodhorodeski9814]

Up in Canada 12/2 the bond is only #14 (not that it changes a whole lot) plus the bond doesn't count for box fill either

[@danielmcdougle6925]

Does in USA

[@esl4058]

A stack of pancakes briefly flashed right at the beginning of the video and I appreciated that.

[@David0lyle]

Hmm 🤔 are you allowed to consider the space in the back of the fixture? Most ceiling fans have a pretty generous escutcheon and typically a good size down rod? How about the typical Florence fixture where the termination is in the fixture rather than the box?

[@Hitman.13.]

I agree with you, except with the ceiling fans portion, those are not rated for ceiling fans.

[@hunterlobdell1042]

Yes

[@bananainacup]

@@Hitman.13. they do have fan rated pancakes tho but yes regular pancakes are not fan rated

[@Hitman.13.]

@@bananainacup Yes sir, funnily enough we call em "Fan cakes" around here lol

[@xylexut2589]

@@Hitman.13. I didn't even pay attention to the rating when I was changing a light fixture to a fan at my mom's house. I just put extra drywall screws where the fan bracket screws would be so that the fan was being held from along the stud instead of the sides so there was no chance for the box to bend or wobble.

[@chuckjim5921]

Awesome vid as always. Just got done dealing with some of these last week. For 14/2 garage coach lights, they can work fine cause the wire is supported, in most cases, by brick work. Knock the clamps out and realistically you can still get away with 2 cables through the back. My biggest beef with these is seeing them used in stud spaces. Primarily bathrooms for sink fixtures. Been seeing them used due to a vent pipe that is right in the way. No reason to ever have to be forced to use a pancake in a cavity where you can easily fit a bar hanger or cut in box. Wish the plumbing code would reflect this and make plumbers reroute their vent pipes to accommodate electricians.

[@jeffhagen4202]

There are 5/8 pancakes, which have something like 8 cu in. Since most ceilings are 5/8" drywall, they work well there and would allow a 14/3 or 12/2.

[@willschultz5452]

A electrician friend of mine said " why do they sell them then" he uses them all the time 😂. I only use them if there is no other way.

[@bobfarnum199]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, Dustin . Appreciate your channel .

[@brianc3481]

He is definitely a great resource that I use to further my understanding and knowledge of the national electoral code and I have no idea where I'd be without him.

[@actionjksn]

I've used plenty of these, the lights pretty much always have a cavity that will accommodate the wire and connectors. I never see lights that are completely flat at the mounting surface where the wires come out of the back side of the light. I'm sure something like that exists but most lights will work with these boxes. Boxes like this get installed and used safely for decades with no problems. Install a regular box that sticks out until the inspector signs off on it and then switch them out with the pancakes.

[@Satchmoeddie]

How about the domed cover on the fixture? Yeah, that adds volume.

[@cdecoro]

Isn’t this missing the point that a typical light fixture has substantial additional volume below the box itself? Effectively that becomes a box extension.

[@BrentFreyEsq]

314.16(A): “The volume of a wiring enclosure (box) shall be the total volume of the assembled sections and, where used, the space provided by plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, **that are marked with their volume** or are made from [standard sized boxes]” Key point, the luminaire has to be **marked** with a volume to add that space. In the real world, they're never marked.

[@forgetaboutitwillya5702]

@@BrentFreyEsq True but at the same time the volume in the fixture can be used even if it's not marked. Just use common sense. You got plenty of room in most fixtures. This guy is completely going overboard.

[@mojopare8954]

@@forgetaboutitwillya5702 Not overboard but precise. The marked box is another refinement that eliminates old stock and promotes new stock. Also increases the demand for licensed and knowledgeable professionals.

[@forgetaboutitwillya5702]

@@mojopare8954 So you're going base your calculate of wires completely on the cubic inch space of a pancake and ignore the fact that most light fixtures have canopies that in most cases have 3 or 4 times the volume of a pancake. Just cause the fixture doesn't have a cubic inch measurement. I guess common sense eludes people now a days. SMH.

[@dougfoster445]

@@forgetaboutitwillya5702 Well, code is king. What's common sense to one person is uncommon sense for the next. Each canopy is a different size.

[@comingtofull-ageinchrist6736]

actually, I was thinking about this when I watched you try to stuff the wires into you switch box when you were doing the wireless switches, and a lot of the older boxes that were used were 18 cubit inches. Well, before the 2020, you could fit 3 12/2 Romex cables into a 18 cu in. box. Now, in the 2020, when you have more than 4 equipment grounds, you have to add 1/4 volume allowance for each equipment ground over that, based on the largest equipment ground for that group or circuit. That's where you have to think if you use split a 2 gang box to use for 2 circuits as well. see 314.16 (B)(5) for equipment grounding conductor fill. If you are using a metal box with clamps, it changes the game a little. because a 18 cu. in. box can not receive 3 12/3 in a metal box because of that. There's two clamps and you have to count one based on the largest conductor entering the box. that means you can use 2 12/2 Romex cables or 1 12/2 and 1 12/3. You know, Journeymen I worked with as an apprentice in Oklahoma didn't teach what the code says. I think they were more interested in having someone to crawl in the attic or dig a ditch or drive the ground rod when it had to be done, than to teach them the code, so they could go take the exam and pass it! They would get mad and say I was arguing if I wanted to know why I was doing something a certain way, or I didn't want to do something their way because I had just learned the way that you're supposed to do it according to the NEC. I just wanted to learn, so I could get my license, and it wasn't something I received any help from the Journeymen or contractors on the job. Because they got their license and never cracked the code book after that! For anyone reading this that doesn't have their license, don't wait until you're eligible to take the exam to study. There is so much to learn, so much information in that code book. The most important thing I can think of is to learn how to identify a the main topic of a question and where to locate it in the NEC. Learning calculation and all that is great, but being able to quickly find something. If you're taking the Unlimited Journeyman exam, it's 100 questions, and you have 4.5 hours to complete it, so learning where to find things is important. You have a little over 2 minutes for each question. Your first pass should be to answer what you know and mark the ones you don't know or aren't sure of. second pass should be looking up the questions you didn't know and not taking more than a minute to find them; the ones that take more than a minute, leave marked and come back to it. Save the ones you had a hard time looking up till last; chances are you may see the answer when you are looking up something else, and save your calculations for last. never hit the done button. Sit in front of that computer and go over everything one last time and beware of changing an answer unless the correct answer is on the pages of the code book and you are looking at it. I don't know how many times I've changed an answer that was right Start Early!!!!!!! Don't wait till you are eligible for the exam to study for the exam. That is a pain you will regret! lol

[@nickesposito3497]

This channel is one of the best electrical education resources next to Mike Holt, keep up the great work

[@heroknaderi]

Cool Never noticed that. I see builders use them occatinally for ights and fans.

[@comingtofull-ageinchrist6736]

let me say this about the volume fill for equipment grounds separately: 314.16(B)(5) equipment grounds up to 4 can be counted as 1, then a 1/4 volume allowance for each additional not a whole. and 314.16 (B)(2) for clamps if there is one or more, only one volume allowance is required based on the largest conductor entering the box. and you're wrong on the pancake boxes, because the volume of the light fixture or ceiling fan canopy is also added to the volume, and many of the light fixtures and ceiling fans have a volume fill space in them. Vanity lights have volume space etc.

[@jorlando6108]

I usually use these when i have to put an exit sign right in the middle above a door and there is a stud there.When you screw it to the stud the sheet rockers cut around it and I haven’t had any issues with inspectors.also the exit sign provides enough space inside to make joints.the pancake box is just there so you have something to attach the machine screws to to hold the sign.That’s why pancake boxes are the same thickness of the sheetrock.

[@timh2870]

14 AWG switch leg when the rest of the circuit is 12 AWG? See 240.4(D)(3). The only place I'll use 14 AWG on a 20 amp circuit (and AFAIK the only place they're allowed) is small jumpers that stay within a single box.

[@chrisathomas1]

remember most pancake box's are used to hold a fixture and the wiring. The volume is increased in the fixture mounting area. If you use the pancake box only for a j box with a blank cover then it becomes a code violation.

[@SeekingTheLoveThatGodMeans7648]

I once had a house where I DIY'ed a lot of stuff needing county permits/inspections. I never got grief over pancake boxes, whose use expects a canopy, not a flat cover. So how much space is in the canopy? Even if the canopy is not explicitly marked, if a marked extension ring attached to the pancake can be covered by that canopy with the edge of the canopy being flush to the surface, then the canopy has at least as much space as the ring and the ring ought to satisfy a finicky inspector. For a rough-in inspection I don't know why the inspector should care about the canopy for it hasn't been installed! At worst it should be worth a note "Luminaire canopy must/will be rated at X cubic inches or more." But again I'm talking about reasonable people. Pancakes aren't used out of the sheer joy of them (if there's space, a deeper box is better, for one day one may want to wire more into the system) but because they can be attached directly to a surface such as a beam above the ceiling.

[@markxx90]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention about available canopy space of the light

[@ballisticbuddha]

This is why saddle boxes are superior to pancakes. The extra volume you get by wrapping the box around the joist makes them actually usable to code and can even allow for a junction on the circuit if you need it. I just replaced a pancake in my kitchen ceiling yesterday for a saddle box with a 12.5 in³ volume. Even with the integrated clamps it's still pretty roomy with 2 Romex coming into the box, especially since they're non metallic and don't need a ground screw taking up precious space.

[@phi5head]

Saddle boxes only work if you need your box exactly centered on the joist. That's usually not the case.

[@aaronlee9651]

For commercial won't always work like that

[@codycurry91]

I’ve had inspectors ok pancakes and fan rated pancakes because the canopies give your conductors more room.

[@cameroncrider6970]

I work for a new build residential company. If we use a pancake, we do our best so it only has one run of wire in it. So many instances of the dry wallers cutting our wire. Then we loop it to pull extra if needed.

[@davidicousgregorian]

fixture still needs 2 wires tho a hot and nuetral so 1 wire is not possible since nuetral can be energized on return it counts as wire 2 and fixture needs nuetral

[@cameroncrider6970]

@@davidicousgregorian one run of wire being a 14/2 leg from the switch for example.

[@obsoleteprofessor2034]

I've been using these is my plaster house. I sheetrocked over the plaster which gave me 1/2" depth. I pulled out the old knob and tube and dug out the plaster enough for the romex connector to clear. Fish the romex through enlarged existing holes and screw it over the plaster.

[@goodolsparky9386]

Love this channel! Keep up the great work Dustin!

[@swaterman08]

The code is assuming we are going to put a flat cover on it? Most light fixtures the cover is a dome, does that add to cubic inches?

[@ericstocker6902]

At 10:50 in video, you talked about using 12 ga combined with 14 ga switch leg. Is that to code? The 14 ga wire would not be protected with a 20a breaker.

[@zacharybob4336]

Tap conductor rules, check out 210.19. It's a more difficult set of codes to understand so most resi guys just stick with the small conductor rule 240.4(D).

[@ericstocker6902]

@@zacharybob4336 I don't have a code book to look it up.

[@billhandymanbill2775]

I agree with Eric about not using 14 gauge switch leg on a a 12 gauge/20 amp circuit.

[@markchidester6239]

Logically, total inches of wire within the box is what should be used for the calculation.

[@allenandtammyterwilliger1201]

I really appreciate your channel. As some folks mentioned that you can use the canopy as fill, but it is my understanding that you cannot technically use it because the fill isn't stamped on the canopy. I have also never had an inspector fail it

[@martinhumerickhouse8319]

This is one code that has had me always thinking about everyone saying canopy counts as “space”. I think I even commented somewhere that it does and now stand corrected. 410.20 states that canopies and boxes shall supply enough space for LUMINARIES CONDUCTORS! Not branch circuit conductors. Second it gives reference to 314.16. So 314.16(B)(1) exception states. That fixture wires or conductors enter from a domed luminaire or similar canopy shall be omitted ( short version) both times talking about the fixture wires and not the branch circuit Point is canopy does not add on to box fill simply takes into an account for fixture/conductor fill adding to an outlet

[@danieldryden542]

I was thinking most times the light canopy adds room to the over all space in the enclosure. We almost never put a round flat plate on a pancake box.

[@nogoa42]

"Boxes and conduit bodies shall be of sufficient size to provide free space for all enclosed conductors." there is no expectation that all conductors in a luminaire mounting box will be enclosed in the box. These boxes are not outlet, junction, or device boxes and are not expected to be covered in a way that all conductors will be encased within the confines of it.

[@RB-xv4si]

I’m curious how you convinced yourself that a pancake box does not fit within the definition of an outlet. It certainly does. Sounds to me like a massive copout for someone who realizes they’ve been Fing this up for years.

[@hiseminencetheholymacdiarmada]

I want to use a 4” x 1/2” deep pancake to mount a ring floodlight camera. I want to surface mount the pancake on a stucco wall.

[@TylerSmith-kt8rk]

Great! Now I want pancakes lol

[@Valeij221]

I had a water loss underneath a kitchen sink. Basically a flood from a broken pipe under the sink. Went in the house and opened up the cabinet doors… the fridge, range, garbage disposal, and a light socket for the “microwave” we’re all hard wired with 1 wire nut to each line, and there was no lid to the pancake. I hit the main breaker and still wanted to cry the whole time I unwired that shit.

[@inecronomicsi4285]

BRO My builder LOVES pancake boxes with "slim fit" canopy pendant lights 😅 Obviously the pancake boxes are a result of the beams but typically we have 3x pendants for the eating bars and often 2/3 will be pancake boxes. I have said to my boss so many times that theres no way pancake box with a slim canopy is legal 🤷‍♂️🙃

[@vince6829]

Based on the comments, it sounds like the canopy of a fixture increases the total box fill making it ok in the end to use a pancake in wiring a fixture with 14-2. Correct? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@blh3741]

I was nailed for this once and the fixture's canopy wouldn't fly. So... out comes a saddle box and she really wanted to not allow it just due to the shallow depth in the center. My only comeback was "why would they allow these to be sold for 2 circuit ceiling fans? She then wouldn't allow me to install it before she signed off, making me call for a re-inspection...grrrrr. The next inspector just shook his head and muttered something under his breath.

[@Chris_In_Texas]

However throw out cable loading, just thing ok 314.27(c) states that all boxes used in habitable rooms in ceilings shall be rated for ceiling fans with that stamped into the box. Also goes on to state that you have to use #10 screws. Also 314.27(a)(1) states that for vertical wall use all boxes must identified on what weight is supports if less than 50 lbs. They can be used if marked accordingly.

[@daleatkin8927]

So I see a lot of comments re: is this really a code violation, can we count the space in the light fixture itself etc, etc. I have a better question for all of you: given that the majority of code exists for a reason, sometimes to save dumb people from themselves, sometimes for serious safety issues, what would you do if you found, in your own home, that the guy before you had used one in a code breaking way, but had been passed by an inspector. What about a client home?

[@johnfilce9236]

These calcs assume a flat cover on the box, right?

[@renedelpech214]

Dustin you are a top master. You should be teaching at technical school. I am much confident when I am working on electric devices

[@theabandonedpeople1961]

Anything over 4 grounds you add them as a half I believe now for every one after

[@cashisgreen6383]

Can you please do a video why you don’t like being a electrician and then a video why you like being a electrician. Thanks, great work and video.

[@benpedolsky9214]

Notch the framing 1” and use octagon boxes. Unless it’s in the ceiling I suppose

[@dougfoster445]

You're not always putting them in framing. often times you are mounting them on exterior walls with stucco surface.

[@barryomahony4983]

Code doesn't allow notching in the middle third of a joist

[@mr.g937]

Notching the framing is a good way to destroy the structural integrity of your roofing system. Never notch!

[@shanesmith8420]

Again it may also end up being up to the authority having jurisdiction. In my experience let's say vanity lights with a vent pipe dead center of the sink. So a Hollywood light would have space for the conductor. I actually had a service call on a new house in Austin where there was water coming out of the powder room light downstairs. When I got there with the homeowner and plumber and superintendent . I took down the fixture . viola some bozo screwed the fixture to the three inch vent pipe thus the leak. The plumber cuts out the damaged section of pipe and there are dozens of condoms caught on the screws that went into the pipe. So the plumber drops the pipe out in the garage and we all had a laugh. That was until the homeowner came in and asked what are those. The plumber says those are weenie boots prophylactics..The homeowner then says I don't use those things. Uh ohh!! Guy got physically ill. Because it was only his wife and his 13 yr old daughter living with him. Really don't know what happened after that but the guy was immediately on his phone to his wife and his daughters school. True story

[@knighthonor44]

Damn

[@bananainacup]

This was a wild fucking ride that I did not expect to go on when I started reading your comment

[@HBSuccess]

Ok you just beat any story I can tell after 50 yrs in the feild 😂😂

[@krich106]

Man my last boss, would use nothing but pancakes... Only time I'd use something else, if the light was midpsan between joists. He even made me use plastic pancakes for ceiling fans. Such a pain the rear! Easier for rough-in, blows at trim-out. Let alone Id rather do metal for fans.

[@codegmaster2610]

I'm a new apprentice in canada, so I may be wrong or nec may handel this differently, but I was taught to not count the bonding wire since it doesn't always carry current as the hot and natural do. Is there a reason you count 3 conductors for 14/2 or 12/2

[@nsmith0723]

I hate metal junction boxes, every time I've come across a serious issue they are involved. One time the aluminium siding ended up getting electrified through one and you'd get a little shock off of it. Now each time it was wired improperly, but it wouldnt have anywhere to short with a plastic box

[@mannymota2871]

I was using those today, for pendant lights

[@phi5head]

Same. Exact center of the island countertop fell directly on a joist and I had no choice. I use them all the time. There's plenty of room for wire when the additional space from the luminaire's canopy is taken into consideration.

[@FailedFrenzy]

The 12/2 romex that you use in the states has 3x #12 conductors in it? Interesting. The 12/2 that we use here in Canada only has 2x #12 current carrying conductors and 1x #14 ground within its sheath. Our cables have the ground awg lag behind by 1 gauge with exception to 14/2. ie: 14/2 has a #14 ground, 12/2 has #14, 10/2 has #12, 8/3 has #10, 6/3 has #8 ground. If your 12/2 does in fact have a #14 ground, then theoretically the 6.5 cu in pan box will work.

[@QuantemTekGamingtv]

12/2 in the us only has 2 current carrying conductors. When he talks about fill you also have to include the ground. In 12/2 Romex in the US you have Hot, Neutral, and Ground all of which are #12

[@FailedFrenzy]

@@QuantemTekGamingtv I did hear what Dustin said, I just didn't realize that your 12/2 nmd is physically different than our 12/2 nmd.

[@joekesler8014]

@@QuantemTekGamingtv that is true for new romex wire but 1960s cloth jacketed and bx that i still run into in older homes had the derated grounds , #12 had #14 size grounds

[@mccarterjg]

I don't know I just calculated out this volume of a 3-in cylinder that's half inch thick is 14 cubic inches, subtract the wall diameters and then the clamps is probably where that 4 cubic inch came from, I would think that you only have to subtract from that size classification when you add extra clamps not something from the factory

[@johnchristmas7522]

In the UK you cant buy "pancakes"! First time I've heard of these-what are they used for? We would be required by code to fit a deep box, recessed into what ever. if its Plaster board, we have special plastic boxes made with rear fixing. That is achieved by sprung loaded 'ears' fixed to the box, which are squeezed inwards inside the box and then expand once past the plaster board thickness. The box is held in place by the slightly larger lid, or face of the switch or receptacle. Light fittings that hang by flex are accommodated by a circular surface plastic box, which has a base with a lid. The lid has deep sides(approx 5/8") with an internal thread that screws onto the base side. The base has a fixed ground terminal and an array of recessed terminals giving connections for the feed/switch line and neutral cable together with terminals for the flex. The flex is wired through the lids centre hole (just the size of the flex) then screwed up to the base. all connections hidden!

[@ndowroccus4168]

Pancakes, the electricians paradox…I’m sure this will be addressed in the future code books (ya know, once the pancake manufacturers pay-off the board of code monkeys, much like arc-faults).

[@tommycho9068]

Thank you for the very good information about electric codes. Many thanks.

[@aaronlee9651]

A fix...j box above and do pigtails coming in to pancake. Instead of having two 12 2 in these box. Had to solve this yesterday at my job

[@joelboutier1736]

My understanding or box fill was to count CURRENT CARRYING CONDUCTORS. The ground is not carrying current thus would not be counted towards box fill. Line & neutral conductors would count only so for 12/2 Romex, the box fill calculation would only be 2.25 + 2.25 which is still too much for the 3" pancake. BUT 14/2 Romex is only 2 + 2 so it would be acceptable to run 14/2 Romex to a 3" pancake. Am I wrong about current carrying conductors? It's been a while since my apprenticeship program.

[@josephknapick5307]

314.16.(B)(5) of the 2020 code requires counting of EGCs as described in the video...1 thru 4 EGCs = 1 volume allowance in total... EGCs 5 and above each count as an additonal 1/4 volume allowance.

[@mr.g937]

Even before 2020 you still had 1 conductor allowance for the ground. 2020 just stepped it up for >4

[@scotttribout1150]

Let let pose this quandary. You are using a pancake in a surface mount application for a wall mount exterior light. Or a ceiling mount fan. (Yes there are fan pans). The room allotted with the fixture should also play into the fill calculations. A lot of wall fixtures and some fans have a "shroud" that provides more than enough space to comfortably make connections. In theory it would work. What's everyones opinions?

[@rupe53]

these boxes are not rated for exterior use.

[@gergimmal5312]

Dustin the pancake box alone is crap Usually it would be installed with a sconce or a pendant light in a kitchen It adds space and most of the time is metal usually brass and has a ground in it 🤷‍♂️🤔 I only use them in residential jobs anyway most parts house don’t carry them especially Platt

[@cameronforbes2649]

I have the 2020 NEC code handbook, which is the one with explanations in Blue. It's hardback. Under 410.20, the blue explanation follows. "UL 1598, Standard for safety for luminaires, allows junction boxes and splice compartments that are integral to luminaires to have less free volume than required in 314.16, Section 314.16 applies to general-purpose boxes and conduit bodies where installed conductors and devices are variable, while the conductors and devices that will be contained within a luminaire junction box are known" Don't know about 2023 NEC

[@pya102]

Do you also have to account for the fixture wires in those calculations?

[@FishFind3000]

The different thickness pancakes are for different drywall thickness

[@BillyD]

The editing is so good!

[@Bremend]

Why are you running 12/2 to lights?

[@benjimenfranklin7650]

I don't know if pancake boxes are a code violation or not but I know one thing you can't get no wire in them.

[@colinstu]

314.15(B)(1) Exception and 314.15(B)(5)... But yeah, 6cu is really minimum usable...

[@nhzxboi]

Made for 14/2AWG(W/G, of course) connected to 18AWG stranded connection. Yet, the 'box' is not a closed box by itself. Perhaps there is some volume added by the cover?...the fixture? I'm not sure I'm going to buy this hook, line and sinker. I don't refute. But, I question tossing in the multiple 12AWG connections. Of course, the thing isn't meant for a multiple connection box of 12 AWG. Assuming a flat cover? If so, sure that would be lame.

[@oldtimefarmboy617]

Can you use the pancake just to mount the light and then run its wires from the pancake to a proper size junction box to connect all the wires together? Maybe they can make a larger diameter pancake box so there is more internal volume. Maybe they can make a pancake that "saddles" the joist so that the extra volume going up each side of the joist can be used to push connectors into.

[@jakedavis8246]

I know technically the 14/2 has 3 conductors but since the ground is not a usual current carrying conductor you you don’t have to include it in your calculations.

[@LeoInterVir]

That's what I've been thinking. In 14/2, the 2 is the conductors...

[@coreymott1]

It’s was my understanding you don’t count the ground in box fill because it doesn’t under normal operation carry current. Maybe I’m reading something wrong

[@colinstu]

Yep. Sparky Channel covered this very scenario w/pancake boxes

[@stillthakoolest]

Box fill doesnt care about current carrying conductors, just conductors and EGCs

[@MagneticPerturbation]

Alright. This is all technically accurate which is the point. All the comments noting the inclusion of canopy space as a factor are relying on the authority having jurisdiction and their acceptance of that interpretation/exception. The NFPA panel creating NFPA 70 should take this up for the 2023 code or asap just to codify the exception or otherwise clarify.

[@SkaggsFamily]

Well, you've helped me uncover YET ANOTHER code violation in my house (2x 14/2 plus fixture wires and wirenuts stuffed into a shallow fiberglass pancake). I have no idea how this place passed inspection 22 years ago (very basic stuff too). I'm finding these things during repair of what always turn out to be sloppy installation (multiple arcing/crackling switches because of long conductor strips/shorts, several flickering light fixtures with bad wirenut technique, mis-wired smoke detector travellers left unconnected, multiple GFCI outlets on one circuit, and more...).

[@RB-xv4si]

I’ve been trying to understand the pervasive shit dick work constantly done in our industry since I started 7 years ago. The only thing I can come up with is (because I see it all the time) that as soon as someone is good/competent enough to do really good work, they often have opportunities to make better money running other guys (the ones that don’t know much, of course) and so that’s what they end up doing. And we end up with this continuous mega shit dick work because of it. The foremen, don’t have time to baby and check on their workers and the inspectors don’t care enough or have time to check everything with the time they have allotted for the inspection. It’s such a problem that my company have an entire QC department (I work as QC in the field).

[@wim0104]

remodeling companies (kitchen & bathroom) get away with scary "electrical" work.

[@justink7269]

If you're using metal rather than plastic, allow yourself a little more because of course its much safer

[@deepinthought469]

Great video. Suggest a video on voltage drop. A footnote (NEC 210-19 FPN No. 4) in the National Electrical Code states that a voltage drop of 5% at the furthest receptacle in a branch wiring circuit is acceptable for normal efficiency. The Fine Print Notes to 210.19(A), 215.2(A)(4), 230.31(C), and 310.15(A)(1) that you adjust for voltage drop when sizing conductors. It's important for you to remember that Fine Print Notes are recommendations, not requirements [90.5(C)]. Do you (over)size your "home runs"? Do you use the limits of 32ft 14-2 for 1500W 15A breaker, 47ft 12-2 for 2KW 20A breaker on 12-2, etc.? Would love to see your response video.

[@wmcomprev]

Question: Most boxes have outlets or switches put in them. With a pancake, you're attaching a device that doesn't go into the box. In fact, in most cases, you're attaching a device with a dome on it, giving extra space for the wires. Are there any allowances for any of that?

[@remodz6385]

Yes and no. During the inspection phase, you usually don’t have any fixture, it’s just the box with the wires coming in. So that is all the inspector has to go off. But when installing the fixture, you CAN take into account the fixture space itself as well. But you can’t pass inspection to get to that point lol. It’s a catch 22.

[@hankkline7300]

@@remodz6385 They do make blank covers for pancakes that have a built in dome in them. that would allow the extra volume to make the inspector happy.

[@gradyrm237]

Are non current carrying conductors a factor in calculating box fill?

[@jb834]

In Canada, I was taught that you do not count non current carrying conductors, which I thought was weird. I just finished Block 1, and had a hard time agreeing with the instructors that bond wires do not effect the box full at all.

[@yeroca]

If you're trying to use one of these as a junction box, wouldn't that be a minimum of five conductors going in? (2 hots, 2 neutrals, and 2 equipment grounding conductors that count as 1)

[@mr.g937]

Yes...and it's not to code, although many people do it (and I've done it).

[@martinhumerickhouse9603]

Pretty sure he’s just trying to point out that per code these are a violation do to box fill. But it’s a standard practice to use these to get exact locations for fixtures when needed. NEC is not to tell us how to install a system but a guide line. Always so many factors that can change the code your working with. You put a fixture with canopy space you pass. You put a blank plate on you fail.

[@jfromtn7410]

so say from a junction box with 12 /2 wire on a 20 amp circuit could I run 14 /2 off the 12/2 to a light fixture if I step down to a 15 amp breaker in 1 of these pancake and be up to code?

[@feyrband]

Does my pancake violate code if there's an extension cord hanging out of it with a lamp socket on the end? How far back would we have to go? (I have cloth wrapped wiring)

[@rupe53]

your whole system predates code so making changes will be an issue, unless it's all redone back to the panel, which will not meet today's code anyway.

[@donphillips5957]

Residential code generally allows that work inside the wall met code when installed, so it's ok(ish). The extension cord out of the box raises questions, pancakes are almost exclusively for mounting luminaries.

[@rupe53]

@@donphillips5957 ... back in the day that cord hanging out of a box was usually called a laundry drop. They were used for both lights and a place to plug in appliances. (washing machines) They were code at the time, although pretty shaky by todays standards, even without being 100 years old and having worn insulation.

[@John_Locke_108]

Never put pancakes or waffles in your walls. Rodents love them.

[@maximostov5823]

Pancake boxes will work with cables that does not have wire-type EGC like BX cable or EMT

[@ronmerkus5941]

In Canada you can get away with one 14/2 per Pan box , and thats it!!!

[@drewc3651]

I'm licensed in Va. They don't allow any metal boxes in ceilings any more in residential??

[@rustyb1642]

s 314.16 = numerals in pi rounded heh (3.14159)

[@stevenpeck5949]

What if the pancake is used for structural support and the fixture wires, 18/3, run through the box, though the beam and into a larger box for connection to power, 14/3?

[@willschultz5452]

I'm glad code enforcement doesn't check any of this type of stuff around here!😂

[@Justanotherwhiteguyyabish]

We run all our lighting and outlets in 14/2 unless it’s code to be on 20 amp circuit

[@FishFind3000]

If you use conduit there is no ground wire and the pancakes will fit the wires fine.

[@zacharybob4336]

You're gonna pipe EMT to a pancake?? What're you in Chicago? 🤣

[@joshecker6907]

Damn, in my area we run EMT and still require a ground wire at every junction box.

[@justinmanship5431]

Would the manufacturer of the pancake with the clamps not be calculating for the volume used by the clamps already?

[@michaelmassetti4068]

Ok. Great video. I think most pancakes are only good for eating anyway. Gonna watch your video on conduit fill.

[@norcalsawsquatch9854]

I called out a Superintendent on a pancake used for exterior goosenecks....... I'm like man the wire nuts don't even fit to make the connection. The light was loose and he said well just use EPOXY around the edges....... I KNEW SOMETHING FUNNY WAS GOING ON WITH PANCAKE boxes 🤔🧐

[@cameronforbes2649]

Hollowing out a stud, atleast the bottom chord of a truss, might not technically be a 'code violation' as much as it'd ruin the warranty of the truss builder. Point is, that creates other problems. You went and over thought this.

[@austinringler2738]

Factor in the wire nuts a fixture wire, then 14/2 no longer works..

[@jeffhrycuna3349]

Pancakes are great if you take down an existing lighting fixture and there is no box

[@waiting4aliens]

How can you use a metal box without a cable clamp of some sort? Interior or exterior?