How Many Conductors Can Be Put in a Pancake Box by 2020 NEC? (Box Fill Article 314.16)

[@michaelmartin5995]

Bill, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Still one of the best channels on YT!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much Michael! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@wmcomprev]

You made the comment that we were assuming the ECG inside the box to be 14 AWG, but that it was 12 AWG and could be considered as causing us to exceed the volume calculation. However, as you also showed, 314.16(B)(5) says that the calculation will be made on the largest "entering the box." The ECG that comes preinstalled in the box does NOT "enter the box."

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks for bringing that up! I edited out that section with KZbin editor. You helped me make it a better video! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@Ed-uu9eo]

I was about to say this. I don't think that article counts the pigtails to base the calculation on.

[@SparkyChannel]

@@Ed-uu9eo Thanks and Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@WeatherNut27]

Really enjoying these videos referencing the code book and reading it with us. Thank You!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@patriciamoraga2917]

Thank you for sharing all of this info.. you have amazing classes........and if i miss something i just rewind your video...

[@SparkyChannel]

Glad you like them! Happy New Year Patricia!

[@patriciamoraga2917]

@@SparkyChannel a Happy New Year to you as well......!!!

[@Jeff-Lawrence]

Hi Bill from Sparky Channel Exceptional video as usual This was a really good one, had to read that code twice. They sure make those definitions confusing. Thanks again, really appreciate your hard work making these videos. Merry Christmas

[@SparkyChannel]

Sometimes I think they make the code confusing on purpose. LOL! Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@luktish]

Anyone knows some video showing which type of light fixtures count into the total box volume, which don't?

[@dougthoutt]

Great video on pancake boxes. Do cable clamps not count against the capacity of the box?

[@iandrew6347]

Great video again Sir Just like to say Merry Christmas or Happy Holiday Stay Safe Watching from the uk 🇬🇧

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Ian! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@tedmcdonald3377]

Merry Christmas Bill, thanks for the videos!!!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Ted! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@kendrickkimble9763]

This guys the best. Learned so much from him.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Kendrick!

[@drexrew]

Why would you have a separate grounding wire for the box ground screw, just wrap the bare copper ground wire around the screw and then connect the device ground to the wire. No need for an extra wire.

[@Jason_Canada]

3 conductors but really its a 14/2 with marettes

[@Jason_Canada]

Smack that box ...Bill

[@Jason_Canada]

Personally I would of used the bond wire around box screw then the green to the wiggee

[@DarkD112]

Thankfully, CEC is much nicer. We only count insulated conductors, so the ground is out. And #14 AWG only uses 1.5 cubic inch per insulated conductor. Although, we have a rule that counts every two wire-caps as an insulated conductor. So our fill only goes up to 4.5 cubic inches. Also, where are you getting 6 inches from for pancake boxes. The number I googled says they're 5.5 inches cubed.

[@stevelopez372]

Now it is. Was not so nice in previous code cycles. Of course I have been retired for 3 code cycles,Lol.

[@luvdady]

It's stamped on the box

[@JohnBGood-kq3ul]

Thanks for the very informative video. Direct an to the point. Great job as always.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks John!

[@sledge3003]

Thanx for another great video!!!.....merry Christmas and all the best in 2021!!!

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@SuperVstech]

Code says largest grounding conductor ENTERING the box. The #12ECG is contained in the box, it does not enter the box. So, it doesn’t count.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, that's true. I deleted the part where I was talking about the 12g ECG. Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@--JohnDoe]

Bill I think your box fill is 6.0 not 6.25. It says "entering the box" that 12awg grounding pigtail originates from that box, it doesn't enter it. Am I wrong?

[@SparkyChannel]

You are correct. I edited my video taking out the part about the 12 ga EGC. I learned a good one there! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@billrutledge2962]

Bill. Can send me a link to the white light fixture you used in this video. I have been looking for a light fixture like that

[@SparkyChannel]

Hi Bill! It's just a cheap porch light that I bought at Home Depot. They used to cost $5, now they probably cost $10.

[@joer9276]

So we don’t have to count the cable clamp in the pancake box but do on the ones molded into the blue nm boxes? Makes sense? Merry Christmas!

[@SparkyChannel]

The blue NM boxes with the integral clamps are quite controversial as to whether they would need to be counted as internal clamps. My internet search came up with about 50% yes and 50% no for people's opinions on that. Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@HashBandicoot356]

So if you had 2-4 grounding conductors it is still 2.00 cu In, but if you had 5 it would be 2.5 cu in.?

[@mae2759]

Yes.

[@stevenneuberger4323]

I wonder if an inspector might look at that "bushing" as being an internal cable clamp (314.16(B)(2) which I believe would bring the required space to 8.25

[@SparkyChannel]

They might. The actual truth is that inspectors might say just about anything. But most of that clamp is outside the box so just about everybody would agree that it's an external clamp and not counted. Also, there is a picture in the 2020 NEC handbook with a set-up just like mine. Good question. Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@billybilodeau1991]

Why use a bonding jumper when you can wrap the romex bonding wire around the green screw it’s self? Even if we used a 14 awg jumper and don’t have to count it, it still does take up some room. I also like using small orange wire nuts in that situation because they are smaller then the wagos. We don’t have to figure them in for box fill code wise but in reality they do take up room and depending on the fixture bigger wire nuts or wagos can get in the way.

[@kenbrown2808]

I agree. I'll also have to double check when I get my handbook, because I prefer the 3.5" pan box, which is only made legal by the volume of the fixture canopy, so if they've started to prohibit adding canopy volume, I'll have to find another way to get box volume without cutting into my margin of error by using 4 inch boxes. also, if you haven't played with them, I like the 3M O&B wire nuts for connecting fixtures in close quarters.

[@SparkyChannel]

That's a good technique which does save space. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@billybilodeau1991]

My boss, as I was an apprentice, never let use use 3” pancake boxes and so i still don’t. Usually fixtures thar require a small splice box NEED a metal 1gang box, because of the size and shape of the canopy. I’m always surprised they are allowed to make such fixtures seeing as how there’s no boxes technically rated to hold them. (As far as i know) And I’ve never seen a 1gang metal mudring tapped for 8-32’s...that would be great lol

[@billybilodeau1991]

Merry Christmas Sparky

[@lockpickingvlad]

That’s how I do it. 👍🏻

[@bksamander]

When a fixture is connected to a pancake the space it provides for wire connections should be taken into account when calculating max fill values. 314.16 (A) Box Volume Calculations. The volume of a wiring enclosure (box) shall be the total volume of the assembled sections and, where used, the space provided by plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, that are marked with their volume or are made from boxes the dimensions of which are listed in Table 314.16(A).

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@MikeSully01]

I think the only thing an inspector could get you on with that one is the "that are marked with their volume" most, if not all fixtures aren't, even though I agree they should count.

[@Sparkeycarp]

How many times have you opened up a pancake box and seen a splice going to another place? Especially bathrooms.

[@jamiedrover6192]

I was hoping this would work to center a bathroom light. It wont pass because theres a splice going somewhere else No wires are allowed to exit. Is that correct?

[@WeatherNut27]

The last paragraph new to 2020 is throwing me off. What does "based on largest" mean? If we had 12-2 conductors in the pancake box and the additional ground was 14-2 does that mean we dont add that 1/4 volume?

[@kenbrown2808]

it means you count the first four grounding conductors as 1 conductor count of the size of the biggest. say you have a #12, a #14, and a #18, like in his example, you would count them all as 1 #12. if you had a multigang switch box with 6 #14 grounding conductors, you would count the first 4 as one #14, and then count the next two as two quarters of a conductor count,

[@canadiantrucker9574]

As many as you can possibly cram into the box?

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@canadiantrucker9574]

@@SparkyChannel Merry Christmas to you too Bill, have a blessed holiday season

[@--JohnDoe]

I learned "new update" you also add a 1/4 volume allowance for each additional e.g.c. Thank you.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, that's the new update. I'll be using that update in a future video. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@--JohnDoe]

@@SparkyChannel Merry christmas bill.

[@Shadi2]

I like Saddle or L shaped fan boxes. Much more CU (12 & 16).

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, excellent point. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@jgoddard0757]

Noticed in the last couple vids youre wear HD gorilla gloves. Are you wear these at work? I do and find they give excellent dexterity and feel while protecting my hands.

[@SparkyChannel]

I like them because they protect my hands from little scrapes and they give a good grip on things. They're nice little gloves IMO. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@chrisharper2658]

It looks like your ground pigtail may actually be #12 AWG so wouldn't that push you over the 6.0 CU INCH limit or does the pigtail not get counted? Seem odd that because of the regs, using #12-2 wouldn't be allowed even though the biggest issue with those boxes is fitting the wire nuts into that tiny space and not the air gap around the wires. Those flat Wago lever-nuts sure are a big help and yet they're not required.

[@jamesalvin5735]

You're right that the pigtail is #12, but 314.16(B)(5) says that the calculation shall be based on the largest conductor "entering" the box, which would be the bare #14. The "entering" distinction was added in the 2020 edition, so if you're using an older edition, that would explain your confusion 🤙

[@nickm9123]

in nj, that could fail in new con. if the inspector is a jerk, because we have to have allowances for "future work" i.e, you cant meet box capacity, you have to have a minimum of 1 cubic inch extra.

[@kenbrown2808]

years ago, I had an inspector tell me that if everything is folded in neatly, and there is obviously plenty of space for the devices or fixture connections, he wasn't going to be bothered counting conductors. which was a relief because the box he was looking at was at its maximum conductor fill.

[@playnationtoday]

That’s kind of crazy! 1 cu. in. Won’t get you anything more than what the box already allows!

[@torodaman]

What I do so it could be less busy with wires in the pancake bx, No ground pig tail install in the bx, I leave the ground wire extra long and just wrap it on the ground screw with 5 inches long b4 the screw and wrap it inside along the edge of the bx out of the way and 6 inches after, and you eliminate an extra pice of wire and make it roomier in the tiny bx, but to answer ure question, only one wire in the pancake bx.

[@Nick-bh1fy]

Btw bro “bx” also refers to an armoured cable not box

[@stop2kare472]

I believe he did that for demonstration purposes only. I'm sure he's out in the field doing good work👍🏽

[@Arieeeee]

Awesome video! This must be the biggest code violation in the world because it means that even a single 12/2 wire will go over the 6 cubic inch limit and yet I've seen it all the time and may or may not have been guilty of committing it myself! I guess your alternative there is those NM fan boxes that let you screw directly in the jost but even those only have 12 cubic inches of capacity.

[@KitchenerLeslie2]

Some of my coworkers use those for regular fixtures in place of pancake boxes. They stink. All the extra plastic interferes with most fixture brackets.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks and Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@junyue678]

It is so useful, thank you very much!

[@thunder3470]

Thank you even for your gift of explaining things

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks and Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@sfnsfn6628]

If the light canopy (domed cover) is marked with a box fill volume, can that be added to the pancake box fill volume to give a total increased box fill volume?

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes. But it's unusual to find a canopy or doom that is listed and labeled for wire fill. Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@Eddy63]

Good 1 Wild Bill ... Merry Christmas to you and the NEC Code people ... Lol ...

[@SparkyChannel]

LOL! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@michaelc.3812]

This wouldn’t be acceptable for ceiling fans with a 14-3 NM cable, not for any daisy chain lights. Just a single run of 14-2. Of course the new 2020 ceiling fan box requirements apparently rule this box type out.

[@garydudgeon]

Good explanation Sparky.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Gary! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@aldavison420]

Can we surface mount these pancake boxes?

[@MikeBramm]

Merry Christmas Bill and family.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks and Merry Christmas🎄 to yourself and family!

[@philipbieniecki3819]

Good job 👍

[@markmadlena6009]

One wire. Or two or three if the inspector doesn’t catch it.

[@MrTooTechnical]

Woohoo. Merry Xmas

[@SparkyChannel]

Merry Christmas Dave. 🎄

[@philiphorner31]

Pancake box will need a bump on backside to carry 12-3 or 14-3.

[@chaseoes]

Can you make a video about interconnected smoke detectors?

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, I'm planning on it. Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@philiphorner31]

So we can't use #12 wire. Rediculous

[@SparkyChannel]

Yep.

[@alsentman9390]

I was under the impression that the "conductor" consisted of the hot and neutral wire. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Currently reading and watching videos to learn electrical.

[@captainteamcarry3]

Copper wire or green wire is the grounding conductor.

[@jamesalvin5735]

Both the hot wire and the neutral wire are current carrying conductors. They each count as one.

[@wolfworrier3169]

? Sir what problems could you have at home for your utility bills to keep going up ?.could it be wiring

[@mikeeat7918]

To much stuff on large appliances don’t think the wiring could have anything to do with that. How big is your house?

[@SparkyChannel]

Utility Bill problems are usually from heating (including heating food) and cooling (including cooling food). LED lights have dramatically reduced utility expense from home lighting. Wiring is not usually an issue. Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@wolfworrier3169]

4 rooms

[@stevenneuberger4323]

I suspect restrictions due to the COVID-19 pandemic might contribute.

[@andydelle4509]

So basically you can't use #12/2 with a pancake box period? I'll bet that get's very lightly enforced.

[@Nick-bh1fy]

Typically you won’t even use a pancake unless for a keyless fixture

[@clayadams2068]

We use pancakes for almost all surface mounted lights unless center comes out on the edge of a joice.

[@SparkyChannel]

You're correct. 12/2 with ground wouldn't work. Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@SparkyChannel]

Gotta love keyless fixtures! The old gas fixtures had keys so the invention of the electric lights were "keyless". Merry Christmas! 🎄

[@crazycomments2.178]

@@SparkyChannel What if you run type AC cabling back to the the previous box, and ground the the fixture directly to the box? So you have 0 grounds, 2 #12s, and 3 omitted fixture wires

[@kirkshirley1319]

If hickeys and nipples each count as one conductor then you forgot to include the threaded nipple in your total. Pancake boxes that come with the metal cable clamps inside should now be delisted or exempted in the code.

[@yzmoto80]

Hmm, 14-3 w/ground NOT allowed in a 6 cu. in. pancake box.

[@SparkyChannel]

That's correct.

[@tevman69]

Math, does not lie.

[@SparkyChannel]

No, it sure doesn't! Merry Christmas. 🎄

[@williambarry4693]

There needs to be a simpler explanations.

[@SparkyChannel]

I hear you.