Emergence and Emanation-Part 1 | Dr. John Vervaeke, Bishop Maximus, and Archimandrite Patapios

Continuing their series of videos together at the Seminary, Bishop Maximus of Pelagonia, a Visiting Instructor at the Seminary, Dr. John Vervaeke, a well-known Associate Professor at the University of Toronto, as well as Archimandrite Patapios Hagiogrēgoritēs, Dean of the Seminary, come together for a panel discussion.
During this panel, Bishop Maximus, Dr. Vervaeke, and Father Patapios have a discussion on emergence and emanation.
DONATE: spots.edu/expansion
SAINT PHOTIOS ORTHODOX THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY (S.P.O.T.S.) WEBSITE: www.spots.edu
CHURCH OF THE GENUINE ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS OF AMERICA (GOC) WEBSITE:
www.hotca.org
Dr. Vervaeke Bio: Dr. John Vervaeke is an Associate Professor, in the teaching stream. He has been teaching at the University of Toronto since 1994. He currently teaches courses in the Psychology department on thinking and reasoning with an emphasis on insight problem solving, cognitive development with an emphasis on the dynamical nature of development, and higher cognitive processes with an emphasis on intelligence, rationality, mindfulness, and the Psychology of wisdom. He is the director of the Cognitive Science program where he also teaches courses on the introduction to Cognitive Science, and the Cognitive Science of consciousness wherein he emphasizes 4E (embodied, embedded, enacted, and extended) models of cognition and consciousness . In addition, he taught a course in the Buddhism, Psychology and Mental Health program on Buddhism and Cognitive Science for fifteen years. He is the director of the Consciousness and the Wisdom Studies Laboratory. He has won and been nominated for several teaching awards including the 2001 Students' Administrative Council and Association of Part-time Undergraduate Students Teaching Award for the Humanities, and the 2012 Ranjini Ghosh Excellence in Teaching Award. He has published articles on relevance realization, general intelligence, mindfulness, flow, metaphor, and wisdom. He is first author of the book Zombies in Western Culture: A 21st Century crisis which integrates Psychology and Cognitive Science to address the meaning crisis in Western society. He is the author and presenter of the KZbin series, Awakening from the Meaning Crisis, and the series After Socrates.

[@Yallquietendown]

I love how Professor John V explains in a way that ordinary people like me can understand

[@ramyafennell4615]

Donald Hoffman is doing the mathematics for extended naturalism. He would be a perfect compliment to all this.

[@nikolasimeonov]

This dialogue brings hope! Thak you!

[@ethanb2554]

Thanks for the video. Fascinating to have a common place for positive dialog between different traditions. But important to remember that this "neo-platonic silk-road courtyard" only works as *secondary* and supplementary to the primary religious tradition; if you put it first, in the place of the religion/tradition as a universal totalizing identity, it's going to collapse under its own weight. Bishop Maximus and Father Patapios seemed to be very keen to this.

[@Jacob011]

If you come from religious tradition then neoplatonism is a lingua franca for engagement with other people. To the extent that it can help you understand your own tradition I cannot speak, but I'd wager it can.

[@TBOBrightonandHove]

Illuminating ⛅. Thank you.

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

This collaboration is amazing ❤❤ thank you for everything ❤❤

[@gpxavier]

Fascinating conversation; thank you all! I think I need to meditate more on the necessity for a leveled reality - especially the need for science (and its level) to be real in order for what it describes to be real.

[@ramyafennell4615]

Absolutely wonderful the way you facilitated John to explain his development and your own engagement....and to dare to dream of a Science of Unity...this is hopw on steroids. Thank you all.

[@crazykyy]

Excellent content. Great to see how more contemporary thinkers are starting to remember old ideas in novel ways to clear a path forward.

[@andrewternet8370]

If there's anything groundbreaking in This Little Corner, it's this.

[@chezispero3533]

Field Of unity

[@philomousia]

Excellent! The title of Wolfgang's book is actually "The Vertical Ascent" (2021). It's a great book!

[@marklefebvre5758]

Skepticism is caused by Socrates, or at least our recent understanding of him. This is made worse with individualism, which gives over the authority for skepticism to each person. The solution is something like distributed coginition, at least that re-enchants the hierarchical nature of the world where you are no longer at the top as an individual. Note that John's channel icon is the wanderer above the sea of fog - a perfect symbol of individualism. This is phenomenon also relates to the Intimacy Crisis. Is it religion that John is affirming? Or just hierarchy (which requires religion to eplain)? It is at least an opening of thought, frame and Johnd oesn this beautiful, better than anyone else in a purely philosophical and scientific frame. The idea of extending epistomology with 'participatory knowledge' and extending cognition with distributed cognition and using those together is a very powerful way to open up the closed world thinking of materialists. I can attest to the power of these tools to help those in trouble. I would argue they aren't sufficient and more pragmatic approaches (sucha s Jordan Peterson uses in Maps of Meaning, etc.) also need to be employed, but as a source of breaking people open to something larger, nothing is more effective. I would argue post modernism cannot lead to anything but nihilism, for lots of reasons. Would love to hear any definition of neoplatonism. So far no one has been able to provide anything that matches anyone elses defition or a coherent definition. I don't see any conflict between Stocism and Plato and Aristotle. Battling Kant and Hume is easy, ignoring all so called philosophers past Aristotle, they all knew they didn't get past Plato anyhow, some rather explicitly. Engaging with the idea of performative contradiction is easier than what is brough up here, just look how people live. Especially the people who are offering these ideas, they never live them out, so they can actually be summarily dismissed on the ground of performative contradiction, that takes care of Hume and Kant rather nicely as well. You can ignore all the bad stuff in the past and integrate all the good stuff - of course, you need ethics to know the difference, rather than giving all past thinkers and actions equal credit. This is where emanation comes in handy - if you have the ethical framework, the integration of the past good becomes much easier (if still imperfect) and avoids the need to engage with difficult philosophy (which most people cannot do) entirely. When performance is your guide, contradiction becomes obvious and easily avoidable.

[@dalibofurnell]

Thank you ❤

[@unameddd8955]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🎓 Bishop Maximus, Dr. John Vervaeke, and Father Patapios participate in a Round Table panel at Saint Fortier's Orthodox Theological Seminary. 02:20 🌌 Dr. John Vervaeke presents his theory of "strong Transcendence," emphasizing genuine epistemological and ontological transcendence. 07:08 🔍 Emergence is the proposal that real differences matter to the reality of things, and information depends on real differences between events. 08:59 🔄 Real causal signaling requires a leveled ontology with higher levels having irreducible causal powers compared to lower levels. 21:41 🔄 Dr. John Vervaeke discusses Alicia Guerrero's argument on formal cause, reintroducing Aristotle's notion of final cause within formal theory, involving dispositions and modalities in reality. 25:18 🧠 Information and constraints play different roles: causes shape actuality, constraints shape possibility. 26:42 🌳 The tree's structure alters the probability of events (top-down), and events cause the structure (bottom-up). 28:00 🔍 Science presupposes real information, causal signaling, structural organization, measurement, and actualization. 38:05 🌌 Extended naturalism explores philosophical, ontological, and epistemological presuppositions of science, moving towards realism. 48:38 🛕 Extended naturalism opens up dialogue between religious and non-religious perspectives, leading towards a shared courtyard of understanding. 51:22 😌 Neoplatonism has a history of reciprocal reconstruction with various religions and science, promoting positive and constructive dialogue among them. 52:01 🌐 Extended naturalism provides a potential field of unity, allowing diverse perspectives to engage in positive relations while recognizing real differences. 53:23 🌟 Neoplatonism responds to developments in philosophy and skepticism, enriching understanding and broadening the perspective of faith. 56:10 💭 Engagement with intellectual developments, like Hume's questions, can enhance faith understanding and provide richer explanations. 58:21 📚 Moving forward with the Ancients and building upon their foundation, rather than merely going back or bypassing history. Made with HARPA AI

[@Xaloxulu]

Wonderful dialogue, thank you!

[@notmyrealpseudonym6702]

Came for JV, hung around to listen to the excellent contributions of BM

[@das3841]

Wow, fabulous, thank you!

[@unameddd8955]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 03:37 🌐 Dr. John Vervaeke presents a case for "strong Transcendence," which goes beyond mere psychological self-improvement and includes genuine epistemological and ontological significance. 05:04 📡 Information depends on real differences, and therefore, the existence of real information necessitates a leveled ontology with emergent properties. 09:26 🌀 Real causal relations require real communication of information with a level of redundancy that is irreducible to lower levels, supporting the concept of multiple levels of patterns and causation. 15:28 🌌 The argument for emergence and emanation involves a return to Aristotle's notion of formal cause within formal theory, reintroducing the idea of self-organization and multiple levels of causality. 19:00 🌟 The understanding of causation in the past involved Aristotle's four causes (efficient, material, formal, and final), which are now being reevaluated in the context of contemporary scientific discoveries. 23:59 🌠 Euro argues for the importance of considering not only causes but also constraints, which shape actuality and possibility, thereby escaping the circularity in the explanation of events. 25:46 📚 A discussion about Aristotle's distinction between causes and constraints, including selective and enabling constraints, which shape the possibility space of systems. 26:55 🌳 The structure of a tree alters the probability of certain events, demonstrating a top-down influence in bottom-up emergence and constraint. 29:08 🌌 The argument for extended naturalism, exploring the real presuppositions of science beyond materialism, embracing a leveled ontology, and moving away from nominalism towards realism. 41:34 🧪 The scientific method relies on real information, causal signaling, structural functional organization, and measurement, presupposing a rational, intelligible, and real world. 46:23 🔎 Extended naturalism is not a denial of the supernatural, but an exploration of metaphysical, epistemological, and ethical realism, which can lead towards a religious direction without affirming a specific religion. 51:47 🤝 Neoplatonism has a history of positive dialogue with various religious traditions, including Christianity, Judaism, Kabbalah, Islam, and science. 52:42 🌌 There's a convergence of ideas, including emergence and cognitive science, creating a potential common framework for constructive dialogue and unity. 54:47 💡 The approach is post-nominalist neoplatonism, taking into account intellectual developments such as Hume's skepticism and Kantian divorce, aiming for broader understanding and enrichment. 57:12 ❓ Acknowledging and responding to the important questions raised by thinkers like Hume can enhance religious understanding and provide a broader explanation. It's about going forward with the classics, not merely looking back or leaping over history. Made with HARPA AI

[@tompeel]

Hmm something clicked with this one that I noticed John has been referring to since early in AFTMC. Something in relation to the idea of growth…

[@MarcelloVinsi]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 01:00 🌟 O palestrante, Dr. John Vervaeke, apresenta a ideia de "Transcendência Forte", que vai além do autodesenvolvimento psicológico e inclui uma transcendência com importância epistemológica e ontológica. 03:42 🔄 O argumento de Emergência e Emanação é baseado em várias fontes, como Blackowitz e Alicia Guerrero, para mostrar que a informação, causalidade e formas organizacionais são irreduzíveis e necessitam de níveis de ser distintos. 16:57 📚 A interpretação reducionista da causalidade, presente na moderna ciência e filosofia, simplificou a ideia de causas aristotélicas (material, formal, eficiente e final) apenas à causa eficiente, mas a retomada dessas outras formas de causa é essencial para uma explicação mais completa da realidade. 25:46 🧠 Extended Naturalism: The video discusses "extended naturalism," which explores the presuppositions of science beyond materialism and embraces a leveled ontology of real information, causal signaling, and structural organization. 34:36 🌌 Realism and Nihilism: Extended naturalism challenges skeptical nihilism by affirming a realism that includes ontological, epistemological, and ethical aspects, moving in a religious direction without advocating for any specific religion. 38:05 🧪 Performative Contradictions: The concept of performative contradictions is discussed, pointing out that scientific materialism contradicts the real-world practices of science that presuppose information and causation. 46:23 🤝 Dialogue between Science and Religion: The extended naturalism framework offers a common ground for constructive dialogue between scientific and religious perspectives, creating a shared courtyard of understanding. 51:47 🔍 Neoplatonism and Christianity: Neoplatonism historically engaged in reciprocal reconstruction with Christianity, providing a framework for meaningful conversations between different religious traditions. 52:14 🌌 A convergência de Neoplatonismo, ciência, religiões como Judaísmo, Cabala, Islamismo e Sufismo, bem como ciência na Renascença e início do século XX, demonstra a relevância do Neoplatonismo em diferentes contextos. 52:57 🔍 O entendimento do Neoplatonismo pode ser uma estrutura verdadeira e construtiva para diferentes perspectivas e crenças religiosas, permitindo um diálogo amigável e construtivo. 55:30 🔄 O desenvolvimento pós-nominalista do Neoplatonismo responde ao nominalismo, tornando-o uma tradição rica e inovadora. 56:10 💡 Ao responder ao ceticismo de Hume e ao kantianismo, o Neoplatonismo pode aprimorar e ampliar a compreensão da fé religiosa, proporcionando uma perspectiva enriquecedora e mais ampla. 58:06 🏛️ O Neoplatonismo não busca retornar ao passado, mas sim avançar com base nos ensinamentos dos antigos, tornando-se uma fundação para a evolução e enriquecimento de ideias. Made with HARPA AI

[@simka321]

Any proposition (including this one) about absolute truth or ultimate reality is always only proximal in as much as thought and its extension in language are always inextricable from the intrinsic relativity of the respective culture in which they are embedded. There are many implications that proceed from this metaphysical position, which is neither absolutism nor relativism, but an oblique integration and sublation of both. One logical implication of proximal metaphysics can be derived from the Law of Identity, which states that A = A. As pertains to metaphysical facts, the Law of Identity is foolproof. But in as much as the relative standpoint of the proposer cannot have absolute knowledge of the value behind the variable, the law is better stated as “A equals itself” since the A predicated on the Subject A is clearly not identical to the Subject since it is not the Subject but a predicate. The nature of what is predicated on the Subject must be relative to it, otherwise it would not be a predicate, but the Subject itself! Similarly, any proposition about a metaphysical fact that is predicated on it must be relative, not only because it is a predicate, but mainly because it is cultural-linguistic articulation of an absolute truth.

[@xaviorjimenez2227]

Bishop Maximu's face when John said that this guy mathematically proved transcendent realities. I don't think you can over state that.

[@Matterful]

John, where can I find your conversation with Pierre Grimes?? Thank you all.

[@StMichaelCell]

I heard the ground for Emergence & Emanation but have not heard anything overtly about E&E. Is there a part 2 forthcoming?

[@projectmalus]

There's a new series that emerged as part 1 on the John Vervaeke channel, with part 2 and 3 on the Utok channel and more apparently on the way; also, here on the video they did mention a part 2.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Their first talk John V. is heavily problematized by it and Saints vs. Sages. In the interest of keeping dialogue and reaching ppl, I believe these are more conciliatory, you are starting to see more assertive criticism such as COTEL on Vervaeke and adjacent thinkers. And more of us leaving the Peterson/Vervaeke pipeline that see the problem in him and his open sourced religion and adjacent projects from the stance of internal critique. It also takes time because jis project is so big and has so many colleagues. Bishop Marretta spent a year going through his stuff before writing letters to Dr. V and then doing these talks. And no the church has to catch up on these talks and John V. You’ll see more of the EE brought up on these topics though.

[@krisdabrowski5420]

Could the paper mentioned at 11:50 be posted?

[@mt030]

Would be great...

[@Aaron-xb4rq]

Doesn’t consciousness, which is supra-material, refute the materialist metaphysic and provide experiential evidence of the reality of a higher level of ontology?