Unlocking Deep Intimacy Again Within The Socratic Way Of Life with Bishop Maximus

Welcome back to Voices with Vervaeke! This is the 4th part of our current series of conversations with Bishop Maximus. Bishop has an incredible mind and has shown up to these conversations with an open mind and heart. This is the final conversation from this series but we look forward to talking again, at a later date. There is so much conversation left to have here!
Socrates believed that logos, which means "word" or "reason," was the foundation of wisdom and knowledge. He thought that through logos, humans could achieve a greater understanding of truth and the world around them. Socrates emphasized the use of reason and self-reflection in the pursuit of knowledge, which has had a lasting impact on Western philosophy. Bishop Maximus brings us a new phrase to understand this concept, from his tradition; "Orthos Logos" or the Correct Logos that represents correct reason, correct relationship, and correct approach, encapsulated into one phrase.
We sincerely hope you have enjoyed these conversations, please let us know in the comments your favorite elements, aspects, or moments.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Another??!! Wow. These have been good. Thank you. Oh, and I'm first I think. :)

[@mcnallyaar]

I know! I can't believe how hard and fast they keep hitting!!!

[@TheVeganVicar]

Good and bad are RELATIVE. 😉

[@bobdmb]

how about inviting Bishop Maximus to Chino?

[@moodbox_no]

Curious what you think about the where John's last comment about the phenomenology of prayer and the process of Dialogos?

[@moodbox_no]

13:01: Aphoria?

[@TheMeaningOfWorship]

These conversations are seriously some of my favorite of all time. John is literally so chill and considerate - it’s so refreshing. And I feel that this good bishop has been reading the Ladder (among other things), and the scripture, for who knows how long and, and has been meditating with our Lord. I do not mean to provoke pride in either of you good men. I am just thanking God for you both and trying to send an encouragement your way if you happen to read this. Thank you very much for your hard work.

[@3VLN]

I have so much appreciation and respect, for John’s capacity for self restraint.

[@dustinkelton695]

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner

[@medina4600]

Thank you gentleman for these profound discussions. Thank you John for all the work you do, I’m currently finishing Awakening from the Meaning Crisis and am eager to start the Elusive I or After Socrates. The last question you asked is really helping me with my struggle with God. When I was younger I would receive the word very eagerly yet would not hold true to the necessary sacrifices (renouncing worldly pleasures), and practices (prayer and reading scripture), and I believe I was just falling into self-deception. It makes me think of the parable of the sower. I’m rekindling my faith and there is no more an emotional response and at times I feel God is no longer there, yet somehow I believe it’s making me dig deeper into my faith and allowing me realize the true nature of God. In any case thank you John Vervaeke for the indispensable knowledge you are sharing in helping me awaken from my meaning crisis.

[@naikhanomtom7552]

Christ is risen ☦️. Absolutely loving these. Hitting the spot spiritually and Intellectually.

[@Drollerie]

I can’t. Get. Enough. Of this.

[@eirikloc]

This string of conversations has been one of my favorites. I love the new series, John,... all of it. For some reason, these conversations are especially helpful, nutritional, hopeful...

[@moodbox_no]

I completely agree, Mr. Olsen. I invite you to have a conversation about this conversation.

[@Art2GoCanada]

United for a common purpose under God. Practicing the presence of God.

[@dorothydeyev9240]

I loved this. Thank you so much for these wonderful discussions. They are so helpful, inspiring a sense of thought-provoking, profound spiritual grounding in truth and wisdom. Much needed, much appreciated. 🙏☦️❤️😌

[@mariog1490]

These conversations have been really awesome. You are posing serious challenges to one another. But not a challenge like a judicial accusation. It’s more like the challenges you give a lover and which you have also received. Really helping us all explode out. Thank you, John. You’ll definitely be in the history books.

[@stephenbellow6777]

No homo

[@mandyhaze]

This conversation is the best part of my week. Did not disappoint.

[@TELOS_BOUND]

Thank you both for participating in this together. :)

[@clumsydad7158]

Unlock our beliefs, unlock ourselves, unlock our world

[@PilgrimVisions]

I didn't realize before now that Vervaeke loves Nishitani's "Religion and Nothingness," but that makes complete sense. A lot of it was over my head, but I was deeply impressed by what I could grasp.

[@missh1774]

Oh man. I was kinda listening while cooking and then you did it two or three times. The turning the language bit makes me go "wow". I'm an avid listener for that move now. Thank you both again for this rich example of how to repackage the good and beautiful.

[@mills8102]

It would seem that diaLogos is not always immediate but is available. Thanks to you both for pressing on in integrity and love.

[@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760]

The contrast of first frame expressions between Bishop Maximus and Dr. Vervaeke- the found and the seeker.

[@tcizzi]

This was incredible, especially the end. So much clarity was produced from both sides.

[@2x_espresso]

The idea from Bishop Maximus around 42 minutes is such an incredibly powerful one: to "re-integrate" logos, rationality, cognitive science etc. into a much bigger (and stable) framework of theology and the Heavens. It ties perfectly in with the ideals of Aquinas, Dante and St. Bonaventure, and it will most likely ignite a new Renaissance like the Florentine one in the 14 hundreds (coming to the balance "the other way", by elevating the spiritual and the Mystery). And, it's also exactly how Dr. McGilchrist suggests to redress the imbalances of the "cultural left hemisphere" with contemporary brain science. They all express the same concept and aspiration, from different perspectives. And a key term is "enrichment". The last centuries of modernity can also enrich our cosmology tremendously.

[@donatoeufemia6029]

5 minutes...1 hour Just felt like 5 minutes❤️ looking forward to the next one🤙

[@abba9881]

Thank you so much, your duo and conversation is crazy enjoyable to listen and to reflect on, please keep them coming

[@miguelangelous]

These have been a gratifying struggle on a participatory perspectival way. What a blessing

[@clarefielding1792]

Beautiful. So refreshing to see people genuinely listening to each other rather than being distracted by what they wish to say next. Completely engaged with whoever you are in conversation with. Always a great experience watching and listening to you. Thank you for sharing.

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Almost at the end, 4 minutes left, but if I could contribute to the conversation, I would add that what you're both describing is undertaking a harmonious relationship with that, that is beyond. All of these conversations have been rich in meaningful ways and I just want to thank you both Bishop Maximus and John for allowing us to follow along, it's been rewarding and a treat to witness. Peace

[@tracywilliamsliterature]

Speechless here in Wales listening to this. Thank you thank you

[@dmjones1956]

In the Orthodox church I can see the practice of dialogos in the spiritual converse between elder and disciple, hermit and pilgrim. An example of this is documented in the book ‘ A Night in the Desert of the the Holy Mountain - Discussion with a hermit on the Jesus Prayer.’ Vlachos.

[@eyesee9715]

you may experience it also in Agape Circle.... a small group experience for Orthodox Christians

[@zzzaaayyynnn]

These dialogues between the two of you are profoundly moving intellectually at times.

[@michealwalli7324]

Bishop Maximus is so stoic that his smile is relieving and incredibly disarming

[@my-spinning-wheel]

Bruh… these are great. Glad you were able to talk so much with Bishop Maximus

[@thegoldenthread]

Timothy Patitsas would be a wonderful amendment to Pickstock. Her essay "After Writing" was what linked liturgy with cities (as described by Jane Jacobs & the science of organic complexity) for Dr. Patitsas

[@eyesee9715]

See also: Tamsin Jones: A Phenomenological Analysis of St Maximos kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmW6g3mlrrWVmck

[@eyesee9715]

See also: Fr Michael Bakker: The Inner Structure of the Mystagogy of St Maximos the Confessor kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmGzaYapn6dlitk

[@eyesee9715]

See also: Paul Blowers: The Mystagogy of St Maximos in a Theo-Aesthetic and Theo-Dramatic Perspective kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3WQpJiXm9Kfb8k

[@eyesee9715]

See also: Fr Andrew Louth: The Mystery of the Trinity in the Mystagogy of St Maximos the Confessor kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3fFdpaim9VrkLc

[@eyesee9715]

See also: +Alexander Golitzin: The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy of Dionysios and the Mystagogy of St Maximos kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5ezYptjqc2pqbs

[@Orthodoxi]

Dialogos, in prayer with God for me, has happened I think, only through repentance. Which means our hand reaches to God through a Childs stance of knowing we do not know and are asking with a Childs trust to be shown. It is quite simple in the end. The results of this is that we can truly begin to love others as God shares his love in dialogue with us. So too we share as he teaches us. This mystery is beyond anything one has ever known in the world. Pure. Zero sin. It transfigures. Good lenten struggles to all who are in the Church.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

You too D Anna!

[@eyesee9715]

you may experience Dialogos also in Agape Circle.... a small group experience for Orthodox Christians

[@chrismichailidis8980]

@johnvervaeke thank you so much for these conversations, they have been some of the best. Another suggestion for interviews that would produce magic with you: Father Nikolaos Loudovikos and his eminence Nicholas of mesogaia.

[@leedufour]

Thanks Bishop Maximus and John!

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Lovely! I think that if the church had a practice like Dialectic into Dialogos and Circling it would increase its power in the world tremendously. Imo it is the abstractness and over emphasis on receptivity in the Christian prayer/contemplation which keeps so many from real participation, regardless of their intention.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

I think they did in Russia and it was called Renovationism that intellectualized the church instead of being the lived monastic life, these types were targeted and blackmailed and backed by the communists and also leveraged extra-ecclesiastic power from the intelligentsia and weakened the church. They were the living church apostacy that was eventually put into power by the Marxists causing schism. Fr Peter Heers at Orthodox Ethos has a course on Russia's Catacomb Church and New Martyrs. He contrasts the best experiences of the renovationists to those in the catacomb church. The renovationists explicitly state dialogue and dialects, hours long creative theological discussions and debates: to the people living underground with a candle and a couple icons, in total silence for fear of being found, and feeling the deep and profound experience of God *they were receptive to* to the point of willingness to follow it all the way unto death, no matter what and inspiring the church's resurgence after near extinction over a century, by example and in opposition to the intellectual and state authority of the watered down apostacy. We can see Renovationism 2.0 today with these calls to do the church better (which is the very critique Dostoevsky makes of Catholicism as the religion of the Antichrist in the Grand Inquisitor, declaring Christ's rejection of worldly bread and wonders to be too hard, and their way to be better). There is a difference between being ecumenical and ecumenicist, and the noetic prayer, bible, liturgy, church, and examples/ways/writings of the fathers are enough. We can also see where this mentality took us with Catholicism, Protestantism and secularism, and it's Neoplatonism, New Age and Spinoza religions returning to their pagan, Gnostic, and esoteric symbols and idolatry. To see it as good in these spaces and ignore the spirit of the whole direction this ecumenicism, New Age, syncretism and subversion is naïve. Vervaeke and co, or a middle ground conservative liberalism from Burke to Peterson are sticks in the mud for an at net antichrist direction of dialectics. The reason the Orthodox church still has it's sophistication and tools for "the meaning crisis", problematized Vervaeke's positions severely, and didn't require his "reciprocal reconstruction" is precisely because *it didn't change* nor did it allow itself to be subverted by philosophy or to become immanentized into naturalism and dialectics. I think you are correct, this would make the church more fun and give it a charismatic spiritual high that most of the circling and dialectic into dialogos addicts have. It would have more power in the world by conforming the church to *the world* and it's worldly Prince, princes, principalities, and his human inversion of the incarnation that will claim to be "christian." It would fit right in with the Origenists calling for David Bentley Hart and his ilk who reject the patristic teachings and narrow gate of Christ and the Fathers, and the academics for spiritual evolutionism and Sophiology. I'm sure they will continue to get state funded and academic support as well, and close churches for state funded viruses and social control, and a new personalizable conciliatory and ecumanical space all religions must conform their dogmas to. But... Are we following Christ and his church even into the tribulations when He and the Apostles predicted the world would reject, or trying to conform His church to the academia and secular world that rejected it and destroyed faith and belief, on their terms and synthesis?

[@leonunes4343]

I loved to hear that you're reading Pickstock's works, John!

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Yay!!

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Thank you!!!!

[@PilgrimVisions]

"If you are a theologian, you will pray in truth. If you can pray in truth, then you are a theologian." This is from Evagrius Ponticus, who happened to be probably the most sophisticated (and Platonistically inclined) intellectual among the Desert Fathers.

[@moodbox_no]

Wow. I have long for going back to studying on university, but little did i know that by starting with meditation would lead me to studies on the forefront of a classical education. Loving how the framing of this lauguage is flowing and shaping my understanding and reframing my own concept in such a joyable manner. Gratful for this conversation and i anticipate the next one to be awe-some too.

[@tigerag29607]

Love these, thanks to both of you!

[@mariafernandez1276]

Very much looking forward to this!

[@BarbaPamino]

Had Plato lived today he'd already have a few διαλογοι in his νους waiting to be written down. Wonderful work! Δοξα τω Θεω

[@dianagoddard566]

This series of conversations are awesome and I am so grateful for the depth of the discussion between Christianity and Greek thought. It has helped me so much to give intelligibility and expression and thru language to ideas that previously I did not know how to formulate. And beyond mere ideas into something more profound. This is often absent from the dialogue in the normal Catholic mileau.

[@ourblessedtribe9284]

The topic of "what we can do is ask the right questions which give way for revelation" Reminds me of something Matthieu Pageau once said. He said if you look at the first verses of the bible you can find huge clues as to the proper relationship between God and human. For example when Adam and God are together, before the fall, God says "its *not good* that man be alone, he needs a beneficial adversary. A question. The fall hadn't happened yet what existed was not good because what would man do, and how could he see himself except through the mirror of eve. I think there is a lot of wisdom in considering humanity as Eve and God as Adam in the story

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

What is it like? It’s like honey being poured into the top of your head, into your Nous, sweetness so sublime you can’t catch your breath! And you know… He is here! The gentle light as you peer downward behind your eyelids into your heart… it flickers… it’s soft, pale… sometimes a light green, but mostly without color…but with the weightiest Prescence. Sometimes you can’t move but you don’t want to…your mind is raised and you understand something… new…it’s as if you are on top of the World gazing into infinite space with clouds…and you suddenly know something new…and you know that you were Given the Understanding from Him, from Above. I’ve had this only rarely since pursuing a serious prayer life as Orthodox. and of course words can’t really describe the experience…read the Hymns of St Simeon the New Theologian… but to experience it yourself become a Lover of Christ! Orthodox! With all respect. 🙏🏻☦️🥰

[@EamonBurke]

Loving these!

[@anavartalitis8425]

This idea came to mind: DIALOGOS is making sense together.

[@marklefebvre5758]

What I got out of this is that dialectic should be pointed towards God, not towards other people. Reducing the ideas of thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis to something you can do with people but the only appropriate goal of this process is God. So there is no answer for the issue of how to fix people/culture/society with dialectic (that will only make things worse, actually) but when it is properly aimed it is a powerful force for transformation within God via revelation from above (emanation). This solves the problem of so called 'self' transformation - which makes no sense and is an impossible formulation.

[@ivanengel8887]

A good rule to understand this conceptually is that God is beyond reality, and reality is beyond the material world. They overlap as God's present in all, but the Western dialectical tradition does not understand the Heaven of heavens, the trascendental aspect which is beyond the spiritual manifestations, and it compresses it into a monistic understanding of God which sidesteps the Trinitarian aspect of God which is not just an intellectual bulwark for God's ultimate transcendence, but also His mode of presentation to men.

[@ethanb2554]

What Bishop Maximus is trying to do here is essentially ask Vervaeke what his dia-logos is aimed at, or rather, imply concern that it is not aimed at anything.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Yet almost no one sees that as the takeaway of this video [which it is.] Just like your comment about the inevitable at net ending point of Neoplatonism being some type of gnosticism or occultism. It's almost like they don't want to. Or think they can fix that. Like John.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Yes… I pray for John to aim at the person Christ Jesus!

[@manlikeJoe1010]

Omg John has discovered Catherine Pickstock's work! Next stop, John Milbank and radical orthodoxy! 😁

[@moodbox_no]

Beautiful to listen to, and such clarity in how the dialog unfold. Very interested to hear about the phenomenology in the maybe convergence... I belive.... in prayer and dialogos... Curious what others think to.. Maybe Mr. Vanderclay can shed some light here?

[@oscaralejandrosandoval2680]

If Socrates, Plato, Lao-Tzu, Gautama Buddha and other great sages were to live in a Holy orthodox monastery and partake of the Mysteries of the pre-eternal Slain Lamb and Incarnate Logos, they would all become honored Saints of His Theoanthropic Body.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

After baptism of course!

[@dalibofurnell]

Learning and understanding how to pray is so important. I gained more knowledge about praying through a course - spiritual Growth seminar series, and it was profound, after that my prayer life opened up and I would say the clarity of communication was more effective. It would be so interesting to talk about speaking in tongues - which is a faith language between you and God and that is hard to explain but it can sort of be taught but it's more complex than that, not everyone can do it, or alternatively I think it takes time to develop enough to be able to, but I have lack of better words. I have felt the presence of God a few times, I don't think I can actually explain what it is like unless you have also experienced it, I would say flow is but a mere step of the way but it's much more than that. Its so difficult to explain. John, I think you would truly benefit from learning more about prayer, I am glad you asked him. I encourage you 💕 Amen , no problems with technology too. 🙌 bless your hearts. Thank you John , it's hard to express my gratitude 🙏

[@hobbsmatt]

Loved this, as always. Thank you!

[@siobhanodea-gb7bg]

Extremely illuminating conversation.

[@Hendeaux]

"but it's the beginning of a dialog" 😆 "yes" almost died 😆

[@williamsheppe9559]

Fantastic! Looking forward to the next meeting.

[@dalibofurnell]

Going through this again for the third time now. There is so much I both want to ask and say, in addition I also felt it on my heart that I wanted to share. And then at a certain point, John, my heart filled with love toward you, that love flows from God and fills me and wants to go into overflow I would hope and pray you could receive it. Looking forward to the Q&A. I hope to be able to attend, as I have prepared questions this time and won't simply be inviting you to South Africa to speak ❤ I really hope that you can come into relationship with God, I believe that the testimony you would have to tell would be one that could lead so many to Christ, to God , souls being saved, people chosing life. May God bless you and keep you ❤ its a journey, John, and you already set a good example of a good human being who tries to do good, to me, that sounds like you'll really be fond of God , for he is good. He really is. God has saved me many times, and even in the worst time, he decided to really save me, so then I gave my life to Him through Jesus Christ- the way, the life, the window through which light shines through and meets you as you embark in a new life. I would have been dead and probably in hell if God didn't save me. His mercy is incredible. His grace is something I've experienced and it Is unlike anything else and above everything else including me and for me I have felt the feeling of Him coming down but it is not without much discipline and good heart posture and pure intention and precise focus and seeking Him, His presence, the light that is in the word and it is written and it was spoken and manifest and created that I can come into agreement with Him. I want to introduce a "new" term, not sure if you already know it , but it is homologeos and if you want me to break it up for you and explain it, I can , and can refer you to relevant information about it. When I discovered it , or perhaps it discovered me, it put a whole bunch of things into perspective, or let's say they became salient within the framing through which I experienced relevance realization, recursive I'd say and from there an insight popped up light a light bulb and all I needed to do was receive it , grasp it, or take it and screw it in - aha .... and so now I'll be able to see where it may lead me next, provided that I am also led by the infilling of the holy spirit , the essence or element that makes the filament inside that bulb never go out. What I need to do is keep my eyes fixed on that," seek first the kingdom" and then let other things fall into place and be everything I know to be in the present as I am to be in line with the I am , so that I could get to know Him better and what His will and plan and vision and mission is for my life in life for the lives of others ♥️

[@durden91tyler]

if you saw the real world you wouldnt be wishing christ on anyone.

[@timothydeneffe249]

I can't wait

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

Around 32:00 Bishop Maximus’ emphasis on the importance of the Classical Education as process and way to replace the wrong aims…..Dante’s 7 Liberal Arts corresponding to the planets in Paradiso…..orientation….so helpful…, 34:37 love John’s phenomenological shift…fundamental to understanding….the zooming in and zooming out……clarifying the categorization as distinct from abstract….

[@adamnilsson4417]

You are my intellectual hero John, I am currently writing a masters thesis in cognitive science on the topic of perspective taking as essential to cultural transformation. To do some kind of work together with or in the vicinity of you in the future is a dream that keeps me going. Thank you!

[@CraigTalbert]

Re: 8:29 that's a good word to know. platonic anamnesis - recollection of innate knowledge. It's up there with kairos.

[@mcnallyaar]

GOD BLESS THESE GENTLEMEN

[@vilelver9016]

So many aspects in this conversation remind me of content discussed in Iain McGilchrist's The Master and His Emissary.

[@2x_espresso]

Re. higher contemplation and limitations of dialectics - in Dante's second dream on Mount Purgatory he uses Virgil (Reason) to expose the Siren (Sins/Passions/Vices), but Virgil needs to keep his gaze fixed on a "Saintly Lady", a noble one, in the process. Same timeless idea, that rationality is not sufficient on its own - to defeat all the destructive temptations of life. Her lips [the Siren] had not yet closed when there appeared a saintly lady standing at my side, ready to foil the Siren's stratagem. "Virgil, 0 Virgil, who is this?" she cried with indignation. Virgil moved toward her, keeping his gaze fixed on that noble one. He seized the other, ripped her garment off, exposing her as far down as the paunch! The stench pouring from her woke me from sleep.

[@michaelmachatton5469]

yo. Ty so much! :)

[@dionysis_]

Another great convo. John you are probably too cautious of avoiding appearing confrontational but I think the question I would like to ask Bishop Maximus regarding prayer is: have you had that experience? Probably better asked in private I admit but it is quite crucial.

[@Cyrus_II]

12:54 Reminds of how the inner limit of the holy of holies has a cherub on it. A cherub is a hybrid creature, a strange mixture, akin to a breakdown of meaning, coherence, and reason. I don't know if the analogy is appropriate.

[@bayreuth79]

Catherine Pickstock is an Anglican, although probably an Anglo-Catholic.

[@bayreuth79]

And, John, she’s very much a part of the Radical Orthodoxy movement, alongside John Millbank, etc.

[@abbasalchemist]

The critique of dialectic by the Church Fathers is not very much different from the Late Neoplatonic criticism inaugurated by Iamblichus for the exact same reasons. The synthemata and symbola are the missing ingredients along with ritual and prayer. "Things are not supposed to be antagonistic with each other"...yet somehow the duality needs to be "reconciled"? Each polarity exists in opposition and antagonistically but fundamentally they share a common denominatot through a sort of gradient

[@mariog1490]

What is dialogos in prayer like? Certainly a difficult question. Whatever I say next, please remember it with what Bishop Maximus said as well. It will certainly take time for me to swallow and soak up his wisdom. I take it dialogos requires love to always be present within. For how can to things share and bind in ratio-religio without love. As if there is truth, must there not come prior to it a love for truth? To pray in faith is to ‘lose one’s mind and win God’ (Kierkegaard). If we are in dialogue with God, but God is himself love, this can be confusing. For, in dialogos with God, he must be present both as receiver and mediation, or between. We deal with losing someone by surpassing them. By aspiring to be what they had seen in us. And by surpassing, by this aspiration which has given us wings, we become a new self. In this sense, love is to lose oneself, and gain one’s self in return. And this eternal death and rebirth, is the infinite which we give out to-without ceasing! This infinite, this love which draws us out into itself, is the God in which we find eternal aspirations and repose. To speak with God is not like chitchat. But when one foot mounts above the other, and the higher demands more of the former. Talking with God is like aspiring to always become new. That love might give birth to us! Heidegger will often tell us the danger of seeing. And for good reason! But our seeing can also be a great ally. Have you ever seen two people in love and smiled (as joy is love which is shared)? Or have you ever, at a time of deep conversation, lost the time and maybe even your thoughts. When you and a friend fell in love so deeply in dialogos that you have forgotten yourself? But when you return back there is a new self? This is because for a time you had seen love, and wanted to hole-heartedly become one with it. Because those are the best moments in live, when we forget about ourselves. When the ego, who is always caring for itself-“make this joke” “tell this story”-has become quiet, caring towards the other and the well from which it springs. This divine feeling of aspiration and love, is like prayer. Only now, we are not the onlooker. We do not dumbly watch the mountain climbers. But we feel compelled to climb this mountain ourselves. Not only to look at love, but that we ourselves might become those who love well. To participate and synergize with love. Love and life are no prisons, but a mountain. A mountain for which there is much peace below it. Yes, but the highest peace is when one traverses the mountain, for there is peace in the highest hope. But, the greatest peace is the mountain climber who shared this great peace and his highest hope-to us.

[@1walkerw]

Come and see :)

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

John! How much have you looked at Gurdgieff and his so called Fourth Way? He spoke of the Way of the Monk which had to do with working on self transcendence through feelings, and two other “ways.” The Fourth Way is for the Householder… us! I dove deeply into G in 2021. I left him to return to the Neptic Fathers of the Philokalia etc because G had no LOVE in his Way… interestingly his father was an Orthodox priest and G ended up having an Orthodox burial! His student Ouspensky who wrote a lot of stuff, ended his life by telling his students to GO TO MOUNT ATHOS and speak to enlightened elders… Have you considered visiting Mt Athos? I bet Bishop Maximos would take you!!! Also check out Robin Amis who wrote a great book “A Different Christianity.” He was into Gurdgieff but became Orthodox and ended up visiting St Paisios annually for many years before he reposed…🙏🏻🥰

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Horizontal… the relationship between a Spiritual Father and Spiritual child? In the monastery there is daily confession of thoughts… only one direction of course… in my marriage we are participating in this activity in the evenings… sharing details of thoughts and battles against passions that occurred during the day… I don’t know if this resonates…

[@36cmbr]

We are seven minutes in and I have no idea of what is going to be discussed. It’s hard to hang in there when my time or mind is being ignored.

[@eyesee9715]

yes, our minds have been conditioned by our technology to quickly lose attention, patience, and curiosty, all of which Dialogos requires

[@projectmalus]

Is that what logic is then? The expansion into assigned bits of an object or objective? That can be then grouped, and the understanding is in the groupings. Understanding as an objective, letters grouped as words and sentences: easier trade as the objective, coins becoming pots of gold. Both an opponent processing tool that moves away from physical violence. But it's the way it's done that's the problem, that tends to still be violent and thus circles or reciprocates in a constrained manner, the constraint of the non-human bits and their self organization for an objective, the proposition. The problem is the planet is an object dissembled into bits that trade kinetic energy while existing as separate frequency wave access arrangements. The actual materials used in the human world usurp this energy. Which is stronger, the knowledge and information of the problem or the knowledge and information of the usurpers? Both the same really, and the intent behind both are similar...perhaps just changing the materials and lowering the noise level and stink will go far. The knowledge and information gained are awesome and the point is to keep that, while allowing it to inform our actions. Will the information ever consolidate back into an object again, or will it be essentially incomplete? It's what we do while we're chasing/proposing the completeness that matters I think. But I'm only halfway thru. Thanks. edit: so the vertical is the mind ascension to connect "levels" of objects and dialogos is the horizontal (I think) and the problem I describe is a foreshortening of the horizontal by excluding the non-human. The mind ascension can still connect levels of objects by proposing objects that can be seen by the grouping of some assigned bits like numbers or letters, that are not wasteful themselves of kinetic energy but the medium they're expressed in does. The result is the loss of frequency access which constrains the levels of objects seen.

[@carissavisscher9648]

What good is the model of the way things are supposed to be when life is so wretched! The world isn’t supposed to be so antagonistic, and it’s up to us to reconcile the dualities? Really? That’s a big ask to be able to claim meaning and purpose for all humanity.

[@projectmalus]

The frequency and kinetic energy of light is shown by Huygens Optics channel "Coherence and Light Part 1: Temporal Coherence kzbin.info/www/bejne/mqXGomiYZbdpa9k and part 2 is Spatial Coherence. Also, I did verify the green of a plant I see is that not used by the plant, which is interesting. My seeing is their discarding.

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Some room for debate would be beneficial as well.

[@festivalonearth]

I am really enjoying these conversations, thank you to both of you. Here is a short clip of Catherine Pickstock from her conversation w David Cayley that I put to images and music. You might find it interesting: "Something That Arrives" kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5SaZWmvndSEna8

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you so very much!!

[@TheVeganVicar]

@@johnvervaeke, are you VEGAN?

[@newdawnrising8110]

The experience of Theoria is distinctly Christian and the vision of a personal / trans personal Godhead. This profound encounter is the ultimate aim of Christian monks. The experience is unapproachable. The only approach in the Orthodox tradition is to sincerely recite and with the whole of oneself the “Jesus prayer” if only once. Then you will see…

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Ah! Theoria! I long for one!

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Can’t you just say “God?” No offense….dimensions, vertical, intimacy… we just call it Love of God…thank you for this!

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Vervaeke doesn't understand that outside the aim towards God, no matter how much he gets his propositions right it doesn't matter in the at net outcome of dialectics. Especially at the historic level as we move towards the eschaton, and as they fall into the hands of worldly powers, spirits, principalities, and *philosophers of action* in places of real power leveraging powerful ideas of dialectic. The gnostic and esoteric outcomes come from the moves and ideologies made and normalized by well meaning people like Vervaeke, who are a small and elitist group that don't build real church's. Philosophers of action called these people useful idiots to be synthesized into *their* dialectics. Let alone the dialectics of worldly spirits of the air and their co-conspiracy with man. He, and apostate forms of collectivist, worldly, charismatic, neocon, process/natural theist, and individualist forms of Christianity, and secular Petersonian, or Eastern updates to Christianity also fail to understand the parameters proper theology in Orthodoxy create to actually be aimed at God and not at the self or spirits of the air. This is why heresy separates from God. This is why Abba Agathon meekly says "yes it is true" when accused of fornication and delusion. But replies assertively "NO" when accused of heresy, because admittance and repentance of sin brings one closer to God, but heresy separates. To John these are just "propositional purity codes." The church has the parameters to address, discern, and put into it's proper place philosophy, psychology, dialectics, structures of reality between material and Imaginal without becoming emenationists or emergentists. And this is primarily based on revelation and a far deeper ethics than Spinoza, the Greeks, Illuminists, or Buddhists are capable of reaching, while conversely Orthodoxy that *remains Orthodox and patristic* can baptize and beneficially use these philosophies, dialectics, tools and truths in other religions with aggressive apologetics rather than syncretism. The unification of dyads and opposites by types of gnosis and consciousness experiences are the inevitable at net outcome of these views as the thing everytime. John has to integrate and scientifically expound and overlap opposites and the immenant world with science and imaginal patterns, and no matter how much he propositionally fixes Jung, Pythagoras, Plato etc, it devolves into some updated dialectic of unending opponent processing of endless thinkers and man in a state of flux and process. It becomes Jungian, therefore esoteric, no matter how much he or Peterson fix, recover, or propositionally correct his models and understanding. It's a core difference between forgiveness in Christ and his mysteries as perfection through confession, baptism, communion, prayer, and chrismation vs Vervaeke's belief in giving amelioration and wisdom to perfect man and correct fundamental misunderstandings with an Eastern and Platonic view on evil. These intellectuals might also view time and reality as a spiral, but they still act as if it is circular and/or a negative. The Orthodox view sees it as a true spiral in which Christ finished man's path to perfection on the cross, and the circular spiral pattern move toward the eschaton and a final conclusion, rather than endless breakdown and "transcendence" withou God. That means historical patterns of dialectic and their outcomes, and escalation of their patterns, (and technological capabilities to fulfil the revelation *worldwide*) actually matter, especially as they manifest types and patterns of antichrist [Archimandrite Athanasios Mitilinaios works on Revelation show this, and Fr. Peter Heers course on Orthodox Ethos explain this.] "Ye will know them by their works." John's project which I have participated in, never acts as if it is coming out the way he intends. It acts esoteric, gnostic, charismatic, and utopian. Just like every other Utopian, Illuminist, Masonic, Jungian, and Enlightenment movement, ever since humanism and the Renaissance used Greek philosophy not just to edify but to subvert and undue Christianity. Unfortunately, his Imminence is correct: we are at a point that everything John [and Peterson] are doing is necessary to improve and point to God, but it will also yield as much apostacy and anti Christianity as it brings people to it, regardless of how much meaning it creates. Tillich and process theology have all been massively funded by the liberal world order into Renovationist churches, ecumenicism, the divinity schools etc. often by people like the Rockefellers and bankers who happened to fund communism, neoconservatism, and fascism all at the same time, waiting for technocratic synthesis between the dialectics. Surely John can critique something there, as evils in capitalism are the one time he is capable of making value judgements against evil without a 2 year dialectic. You can also see where Tillich goes with Chloe Valdary and Brett Anderson [out of Vervaeke] who need to weaken God and tie Him to a Pagan Goddess as the solution to all our Cartesian problems as the source of radical violence and infantile adult behavior pushed by many in Vervaeke's profession who will seize his language game and keep the dialectics going [see chloe valdary's video: What Happened to Jordan Peterson]. This synergistic deification isn't just something done by prayer, alms, fasting, and works. To reach full deification one must be with the saints and martyrs which is a radical way of life and the rest of us are hierarchally helped by them and the apostolic succession going back to Christ and his apostles, in a hierarchy and earthly body of Christ on earth. People like myself who cannot live up to that try our hardest and rely upon not only growth and direct experience of God but those who are holier and relate to these Saints as *living and deified* at the footstool of the Father, *relating* to them rather than arrogantly reducing and integrating them, and reducing God to a split between sage and mystery within natural process. This ascetism and hierarchy, and the strictures that enable that level of deification, clearly seen through it's wonders, actions, and holy qualia to the phenomenology after strict hesychast discernment are not only nowhere to be found anywhere near the rate the church produces saints and martyrs: it is the first thing to be targeted by apostate, renovationist movements and gnostic radicals, and rejected by them, from Sergianism, to the Papacy and need for the imagination, to Protestantism and calls in these threads for Origenism and people like David Bentley Hart who reject the Fathers.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Yes! I can’t read this all right now but I’m resonating!!!