Upgrade to Lithium - the Smarter, Cheaper Way (BankManager)

[@conradgrillo-uf9ld]

For those of you a little more technically concerned about your lithium, when charging to full this device charges to taper current, the batteries own signal telling us it’s full. It will protect against overcharge at any voltage, especially those below where your charge source controllers or regulators are set. It sounds counter intuitive but if charge doesn’t stop when amp acceptance drops off to below a given level- taper current, even if the voltage your regulator/controllers are set at isn’t reached, you are permanently plating lithium out of solution- overcharging. It should also be noted that with lifepo4 the only state of charge that can be accurately identified is full. And that state is identified by taper current at any voltage between 13.48 and 14.6. Amp counting can only be an approximation (because of inaccuracies and changing internal resistance) and charging to some chosen (random) voltage without taking into account holding it there until taper current is achieved (or stoping charge if taper current is achieved at a lower voltage) is no better an approximation. All those charge to graphs you see on the internet can only be a guideline as to an approximation on a new battery, a certain temperature, etc charged at an absolutely constant rate. And still, just an approximation. Also, as an advocate for charging lifepo4 to full as defined by taper current (the battery’s own signal), it’s the only state to charge to that won’t write a memory cycle. Another very important feature of the bbms is that you can set a voltage to which you would like th lifepo4 to discharge to before it recharges. Again, this is about treating your lithium correctly. Charge to full and discharge substantially. Some say it is overkill or going too far but if you read the science you will see that not doing so will create memory “bumps” that will slowly decrease capacity. While these capacity loss issues, unlike overcharging, can be reversed, why not treat the battery correctly to begin with? (The internet myths of not charging to full, for instance, is rampant because no one has made a device that identifies full correctly. In fact I’ve never seen an available charge system that even discusses how to correctly identify full. And to discharge to a level before being recharged, all the while allowing you to run on solar or any other source when it’s available, what system does that?). And, for those who know the science, lithium should not sit at any charge point (especially above 50%). It’s really simple to use a second small inexpensive low side bistable relay to control a small load on your lithium, in such a way as to allow the bbms to correctly read amps while connected and disconnected, at all times so it doesn’t ‘sit’ idle. I use a small computer fan blowing on the lead at .3amps. With my sized lithium bank I’ve worked my way down to 13v as a ‘don’t recharge until’ voltage. I’m considering dropping lower. You see, with the bbms we’ve got lead. The poor stuff should be able to give up a few useful amps every now and again! 🙂 And remember, the bbms allows you to “discharge substantially” and not recharge until a user set voltage is reached AND allow you to run on solar at the same time, no matter how many days it takes to get down to that voltage. Anyway, treat your lithium right. It could possibly outlive you! Yes, the bbms has the ability to treat your lithium right. No other system that I know of does.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Conrad is an early adopter of this technology. He has spent years thinking this through. I'm simply not sure if his approach is necessary but I agree it's the best one can do for LiFePO4. I designed the BankManager (used to be called the BBMS) to be able to do all these tricks if a very technical user wanted to. Conrad wanted to.

[@PVflying]

Hi Conrad - tapering current in connection with LiFePO4 charging is normally used in reference to the way the current tapers down while the terminal voltage is held at a given level during the CV phase of the CCCV charging cycle. I’m not aware of how lithium plating can occur when charging to below the charge termination voltage, as you’ve stated in your reply above, nor how “taper current” as a signal of a lithium battery being full can happen at a voltage lower than a correctly set termination voltage - can you please elaborate? Are you referring to the “trickle current overcharge” situation Clark made reference to in the video? If so, this is surely easily avoided with a charge termination voltage somewhat lower than the 3.65V at 0.1C typically quoted as a limit for LiFePO4?

[@conradgrillo-uf9ld]

@@PVflying in any battery there are voltages above which electrons will move. In lifepo4 that voltage is about 13.5 (13.48 in a 4s configuration actually. Yes, we really should be talking about cell level voltage, especially with lithium but let’s keep it simple). The higher the battery voltage is held (within reason- for lifepo4 that would be 14.6), the faster electrons will try to move. As the battery approaches full at any voltage in which electrons will move (13.48-14.6 for lifepo4) acceptance rate will drop. The battery does this. It’s nothing to do with the charger. In a lead acid battery there is something called a ‘shuttle reaction’ that can use small amounts of energy and help to nullify the potentially harmful effects of holding the battery at a voltage beyond that signal. With lifepo4 there’s no shuttle reaction to speak of. Lithium starts plating out of solution permanently. The fact that lead is a forgiving chemistry has allowed the battery industry to totally avoid building chargers that correctly charge. The idea of cc/cv chargers is pretty dumb even if they are called smart chargers. If you go to a major golf cart battery suppliers website and look at their recommended method of charging for instance, they say to charge to x voltage and hold it there until amp acceptance drops off to x%C. They then say that if your charger can’t do that then just hold it there for hours and drop back to ‘float’. No one has made a charger that correctly charges even lead…. And if you hold lithium at any voltage above 13.48 beyond taper current you are plating lithium out of solution. If charge amps drop (think clouds etc) your lithium can ‘over charge’ before even reaching the voltage you’ve set chargers to. Let’s look at the other side of things. Say we charge lifepo4 at some ridiculously high rate. 5C. Voltage will come up relatively quickly. But if you stop charge it will drop quickly too. It needs to be held there for time to allow it to fill. If it’s not held until amp acceptance drops to ‘taper current’ for that voltage it won’t be full. Her in lies the one clear place in lithium’s charge cycle that can correctly be identified. That is full. 100% charge. The battery tells us when it’s amp acceptance drops to a certain amount at any voltage between 13.48 and 14.6. Of course it’s silly to even think of going to 14.6 because one cell will be over but you get the idea. The bbms disconnects lithium when taper current is achieved at any voltage between 13.48 and 14.6. It is not possible to do this with a solar, wind or alternator controller that is dumping into a live system. How much is going to the fridge, the lights, whatever? With the bbms system a The rate of charge in the lithium is seen accurately.

[@conradgrillo-uf9ld]

@@PVflying so, in your example, .1C of my 300ah bank is 30amps (I’m not recommending these numbers). If I charge to 14.6 at anything above 30 amps I won’t be full when I hit 14.6. I’ll need to hold it there until the battery itself reduces the rate of acceptance to 30 amps. When it does I’m full. On the other hand, if I’m charging at a lower rate than 30 amps I’ll be over full before I get there. (This is considered to be the primary cause of lithium death by many. In this example one can easily see how we on boats or rvs or other installations with limited solar can easily do damage to batteries at low charge rates. This can happen at any voltage above 13.48 with lifepo4. It’s often a slow death but it’s death all the same. I’ve read of numerous instances wher death occurred in as little as one to two years) I think the best illustration is a guy with a shovel throwing coal over a wall. As he runs out of coal to shovel the shovel loads become less full at the end. That bin on the other side is only so big. If he keeps shoveling the coal runs off the bin pile and is lost. Not exactly it but it gives you the idea. The problem is that it keeps slowly draining the bin also. And in the battery the lithium is not only disappearing it’s damaging the electrodes (plating out of solution onto the electrodes). This isn’t good. If you can find a charge controller that accurately monitors what’s going into the lithium battery (not what’s coming into the whole system through a charge source, thats not the same) and can stop charge completely when acceptance rate falls to correct level (not .1C at 14.6) then please tell me, I’d really like to know. But what then? Did you just fry your alternator? Sure, there are complicated ways not to do that at an expense. How about being able to run on solar or wind once the battery is filled and save stored amps for a time they are needed? Yet being able to connect back to lithium when the charge goes away or isn’t ample for the load? The problems the whole system addresses are complex. The way it solves them is beautiful.

[@PVflying]

@@conradgrillo-uf9ld thanks for your comprehensive replies, I appreciate your advice but forgive me for not being won over yet. I’ve been using LiFePO4 since A123 came out with their first cylindrical cells in (I think 2006) and many LiPo batteries before that too. If I’ve understood you correctly and you’re saying the cells are damaged with plating when charged at below 0.1C while cell voltage exceeds 3.37V, then this is the very first time I’ve heard that and I’m wondering why. If you have references to back this up I would be interested, or if I’ve misunderstood what you said then please correct me, because you referred a few times to “taper current” without defining how you are using the term, and I’m inferring you mean 0.1C? If you had told me the damage occurs if charge rate drops below 0.1C while terminal voltage is at (or above) 3.65V, then yes I concur fully. Perhaps we are just at cross purposes? I have a number of chargers which terminate the charge when at termination voltage the current drops at at 0.1C where C is the set max charge amps - all of these are battery charger products rather than solar charge controllers and I also have no idea why charge controller manufacturers haven’t managed to do more than to repurpose lead acid chargers despite proper lithium battery charging procedures having been known about since at least the early 2000s.

[@ianwillcock6314]

Being one of the 100 people who have one and one of the 2 people with funny lead (or whatever it is) and also not being technical minded enough to understand how the bank manager works between the lead and lithium really appreciate this video that goes into more detail than the previous one on exactly what's going on. Many thanks Clark......

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thank you Ian for being so understanding and helping me get that issue sorted out.

[@kristiannyblom7847]

The Bank Manager is the Coolest invention ever! My last lead bank change cost me 2k and it did not last more than 6 years. This is a game changer being able to go hybrid. Still lead AGM to take care of the bow thruster and anchor windlass and now Lithium for all the rest and perhaps even your DC A/C... How many big companies have made two game-changing inventions for the off-grid community in such a short time? Amazing!

[@jeannejeffries4226]

Flew into Bahamas with two lithium iron 100ah LiFePo4 batteries as recommended by Clarke, and the Bank Manager. On our trawler, for one week now, we have not been off GREEN! We have 1400 watts solar, and combined these two new batteries with 4 AGM LifeLines that are 6 years into 10 year warranty. Toaster, Microwave, Coffee Pot, nothing takes it off Green. We are thrilled! Thank you Clarke.

[@jonathanwetherell3609]

This is what happens when an Engineer, who really understands what is needed, tackles a real need. You get a real solution, one that works.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes I have issues with marketing driven projects.

[@mrwess1927]

@@Clarks-Adventure is this something that is analogous to batteries and super capacitors in parallel to drive an electric motor? The supercapacitor can handle the jolt and the battery lasts longer.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Not really. It lets you add Li without changing your charge system It lets you continue using your lead (in a secondary position but automatically) It charges your Li correctly (nothing else does) Most use it as an easy path to Li with advantages over li

[@troymccomak1208]

I live in a skoolie and this BBMS is something that I have been budgeting for. The only issue is that the batteries are a combine 4k cca will your BBMS work with high amp draws?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Our best contactor can handle a continuous 300amps and you can use 2 in parallel for about 600amps. But most any contactor you can find can be used. We stock a 600amp current sensor. Larger ones can be had by special order. The BankManager itself could run a city. No current actually passes through the control unit.

[@adelarsen9776]

I am certain that the Bank Manager will be a commercial success and you can be rightly proud of your invention. :-)

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Ade, Yep lots happening just now.

[@markstahley2810]

Ordered and received the Bank Manager and sundry parts in record time. I'm looking forward to adding some Lithium and installing Clark's gizmos into my boat. Thanks Clark!

[@michael2358]

Just installed Bank Manager 2.0! Perfect solution to avoid having to completely change battery systems. Just watched it switch to lithium at the equalised voltage

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Michael. You might be able to help me out. Or anyone else who just installed a 2.0 (white box). I need nice install photos for a Finnish sailing magazine article. I'm in the DR and my 2.0 units are arriving by slow boat (literally). My European associate only has one and that is scheduled for ce testing. We are giving the author a black box but would rather see pictures of the new unit. So if you or anyone could make some nice photos of your installation that would really help me out. And of course anyone wanting to do an endorsement video... I'd really appreciate that Clark. [e-mail]

[@edmyers9955]

Excellent Engineering! When I start my cruising life, it will include this!! Thank you both, (we can never forget Emily!)

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Ed

[@JSROOKS]

There are many things here that I find astounding. Mostly it's the number of people commenting that this is a great idea. Cheers

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Yes, we have sold about 400 of these. As far as I know everyone is happy.

[@johnberry4492]

Love it guys! I'm retiring to my Roughwater 33 in Western Mexico in November and I plan to check my optima battery system and adding lithium batteries. I love your videos and I've been following AND learning for a few years now. Clark! You're my hero!😊

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks (blushing)

[@blinkbob5550]

I installed a small solar system (800 watts) to run a deep water well. I debated using an AGM or a LiFePO4 battery. I finally settled on the Lithium battery and purchased this Redodo 12v 200ah plus.

[@gavin1443]

love this guy! I bought one it's in the box still, haven't opened that can of worms yet, but just a warning Clark, I'm going to be buying that Phone number! thank you so much for this video it explained some things I missed before!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Looking forward to getting to know you on the phone.

[@nitzansneh5552]

Nice idea. I also do like to keep few AGM batteries as a backup, but basically the house and bow batteries are all 12Kw/h LFP. Have not heard you mentioning the LFP (smart) BMS, that if well programmed can do what’s needed for the LFP by using the same chargers and still keep the AGM happy enough. - all my chargers: The Victron Multiplus, Balmar 170A and Solar HPPT are all programmable to the optimum levels supporting all battery needs.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

None of the chargers you mentioned can charge li correctly. They have no way to sense the current going into the batteries. They all can cause low current overcharge. I don't know which BMS you refer to. It's possible this could be done,. What is the name of it?

[@simplyblessedrvlife9067]

Now this is sweet . I’m currently adding 3840w of solar and (12) 100ah to my 50a rv. And really wanted to be ahead of the curve for completely off grid .

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Want to be on the bleeding edge of the curve? Add one of these. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX6TgJx3npqle68

[@acampbell198]

Don't pay attention to the impatient among us Clark, I love your detailed explanations and I I believe most who watch your channel agree. I wanted to be sure I'm understanding how to set this up with a mixed lead/lithium system. There are a couple of ways to mix and I want to be sure I understand the limits. Like most boats I have a lead system split by house and start batteries. The house currently consists of two 198 ah West Marine AGMs and one 55 ah West Marine AGM start battery. In the current setup, the start battery has it’s own separate charge controller.I understand that keeping the house start split is one way to go i.e. keep my AGM start battery but replace my house batteries w/ lithium. But, are you saying that you can mix batteries on the house side w/ your BankManager? Can I replace only one of my house batteries? Another thing I am not completely clear on is my charger/inverter. I know my current charger/inverter, a Xantrex Freedom 458 charger/Inverter, cannot charge lithium. But in your videos you repeatedly point out that many lithium capable charger/Inverters don’t really do a very good job of this. What I’m not clear on is if I use your BankManager, can I keep my existing charger/inverter or will I still need to purchase a new one that can charge lithium? I think the answer is that I will need to get a new one but I wanted to confirm that. If I am correct in that, is there a lithium capable charger/inverter you like over others that you are willing to publicly endorse? You may have covered this in other videos I have not seen yet, if so, please feel free to direct me to that. Love the content, thank you for sharing your knowledge, be as longwinded as you like!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks, Let's start with some links. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms And especially kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqGZpKahaayoq8U Should be helpful to you. The top link has a link to the BankManager manuals and FAQ. The manual has drawings and descriptions of typical installations In short keep what you have if your lead is healthy (or remove some of you need space). Don't change anything you don't want to change. Leave all loads and charge sources connected to where they are now, to the house lead. Now, add your new li in parallel to your house lead with the BankManager contactor in the positive battery cable. Your done!!! Leave all charge controllers set for LEAD. Let the BankManager manage your lithium, it does a great job at that. So no need to change your old inverter/charger. Even if you bought a new one you would tell it it's managing lead batteries.

[@dustins4194]

I love this video!! I am waiting on more wire for my final connections, but this is helpful to see it all laid out.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Dustin.

[@svAeroNautical]

I am in the process of installing the BBMS this weekend. So far so good and I'm looking forward to powering it up, hopefully, on Sunday. I'm putting together a little video of the install and testing so should be fun.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Send me a link to your video at [e-mail]. if you post it here it's likely to get KZbin autoblocked

[@alanblyde8502]

Can’t wait to receive ours, this will give extra life for our AGMs for sure👌🇦🇺

[@40watt_club]

Always glad to listen to thingies I do not really understand ;.) TY , I learned a lot.

[@mvintrigue-trawlerdiy1101]

I dont need one just yet. But thanks bunches for doing this stuff. Lovrs the technical videos the best.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You're very welcome

[@dappraiserk]

Hey Clark. Thank you so much for your time and expertise that you put forth to teach and explain the ins and outs of the electrical/fridge systems on a boat. I was lost and now I am much more confident. I ordered the battery mgmt system. Patiently waiting for arrival?

[@lenwhatever4187]

The new box is great. Really nice product. I'm all lead right now... and in Canada where border crossing charges are screwy, even when no duty is owed. my steps will be: - update solar from the mish-mash to something more unified so I can use 24v - update controller to mppt from pwm to allow 24v panels with 12v battery Then I can look at adding lithium. As the system seems keep up with the fridge and lights (Georgia Strait requires motoring too). The old rigging may be first, in with repaint. One has to put the available funds in the right place in the right order. When I do get a lithium battery, I will get the contactor first even if I run it on an analog comparitor set a bit low for a bit. I would likely run a balancing resister too, perhaps with a relay. Considering the time scales involved, I will change my mind several times ;) +1 for being able to read the full manual before buying. When I worked at the TV station we used do a complete tear down as well to make sure setup was possible/easy and the device was reparable, ENG crews are hard on equipment. (yes this was in the days of tape)

[@SVAdAstra]

Yes! You got this 100% correct! I cringe every time I see people abuse-charging LFP batteries to zero current based on voltage. You cannot determine when to stop charging LFPs by voltage alone! Great and perfectly thought out solution. You've got this! LFP BMSs are intended as a last-resort safety system, but none of them in drop-in LFP batteries are capable of terminating charging prior to over-charging the LFP battery because they don't have a charge current cutoff algorithm.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You obviously understand this. Now that you know of a solution please talk it up. My whole marketing plan is guys like you spreading the word.

[@raireva4689]

Love it! And timely too! Couple questions: 1. Looking at the wire size it looks that the control box could be installed some distance (10ft wire length)from the relay and sensor, correct? 2. Relay and sensor should be close to batteries, correct? 3. The best place for me to install the BBMS is engine room. What is the upper temperature tolerance for your BBMS? KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks. 1 don't use the wire sizes I used in the video. There are recommendations in the manual but with the right wiring, including a shielded twisted pair for the sensor, you could mount the BankManager a long way from the contactor/current sensor. I don't know the limit but I wouldn't worry about 25 feet. 2 yes keep the contactor/sensor near the natural positive cable run. No need adding extra length to that. 3. I haven't thought of that. I use high quality, over rated, components so the semiconductors shouldn't be an issue. Of course heat shortens the life of everything but that's more theoretical in this case. The display is an OLED. You could check that. I think the first thing to fail will be the case melting. I could look that temperature up but it is way hotter than your engine room will ever get. Your batteries will suffer if kept hot of course. You know about lead. Li likes 73f. But those of us in the tropics just have to accept that. Still keep the batteries as cool as you can.

[@gabereiser]

Oh sweet jesus! You're going to be rich Clark. This is incredible!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Wouldn't that be nice.

[@johnbode2756]

Looks like a great product; however, I read that when LiPo batteries are used alone with an alternator, when the batteries disconnect, the alternator could create very high voltage on the circuit, possibly damaging other components around the boat, and that the alternator may overheat at low RPM. Does this circuit solve these issues? Does the lead battery stay connected to the circuit to allow the alternator to work correctly?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I made this video just for you. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHS9l5Rop5KEg7s

[@DirkJacobsz]

Geez well done Clark. Your new BM looks the bees knees.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Dirk. Yes if I do say so myself it's a very useful device. ISO just asked us to write a white paper to help them develop a standard for hybrid batteries.

[@DirkJacobsz]

@@Clarks-Adventure Well done - well deserved - a sign of your ardwork. I will have to sail to DR to see ya guys and get one. See ya soon.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I'd appreciate the visit but you don't have to come here to get one of course www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@normoleson2787]

My apology for not finding the correct place to post this question on lithium battery chargers: : First many thanks for your Masterclass series. In your series you discussed the the importance that the charger matches the chemistry of the battery and added many? being sold don't measure up. Although I'm a low budget recreational boater whose battery will be in storage the vast majority of the time I'm looking for a decent quality charger and willing to pay. Can you help? PS: The 12V 100 Ah Redodo "Mini" battery I plan to buy only weighs 19 lbs. It will replace a 60 lb. Deka and a 36 lb. Mighty Max used for the TMs in my small Key West and smaller Gheenoe. This is a real game changer as I can get rid of those heavyweights and easily move the Redodo 19 pounder from boat to boat as needed.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

If you will only be charging this battery off AC power and never having any load attached while charging you just need to find a charger that will charge at a constant current and shut down completely when a set voltage is reached. The voltage is a function of the c-rating you are charging at. If you want you can use a BankManager to do this by basically putting a momentary switch between the lead and li voltage sense screw terminals and letting it charge until the Li is full. This would work even if the charger isn't constant current like solar. No lead battery required as long as the open circuit voltage of your charger doesn't go over 60v when suddenly disconnected (no alternators) . I'll be charging the li batteries I test this way in upcoming videos. Pay attention and you will see how to set this up.

[@stevencampbell3203]

Thanks! Great video Question about charging sources. Can I keep my alternator and battery charger set for lead acid and use my solar for the lithium battery?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Set all charge controllers for lead and let the BankManager manage the li bank. It's proven to work great. Lots of happy users.

[@Ulrik_Hejdenberg]

This seems to be exactly what I would have had when I changed my house bank to lithium last year. Now I almost want to redo the installation and insert a lead battery as well. Does it matter if the lead battery is acid or gel?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You really should. There are lots of advantages of lead over Li. BBMS - Lithium and Lead: kzbin.info/aero/PLsT7_jPsZM5pApg5I7EPtLd15qXSqZn2U But just the low current overcharge issue is reason enough. Any lead type battery will work fine. I like AGM and lead carbon.

[@SVNimbus]

Hi Clark, another great video. Thanks for the detailed talk through the system. Did you encounter any difficulties with CE certification for the EU?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

CE seems to be laughingly easy and has more to do with marking your plastics and using environmentally safe items. I designed it to meet UL specs but I'm not sure if I want to pay for that testing.

[@benkanobe7500]

OFF TOPIC (but not really): Do any of the sloop-mounted (or even bigger boats) wind generators really work to charge your cabin batteries? Is there any generators in land-based off-grid solar that actually work? I have an off-grid house where it is often windy at night and I would like to capture some energy from that wind.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

How to Make a DIY Wind Generator: kzbin.info/aero/PLsT7_jPsZM5oZeMUi5ejGozVTHm83S3-7 This one does. It makes enough power to run the whole boat (before AC) with just an average of 9 knots of wind.

[@benkanobe7500]

@@Clarks-Adventure Thank You!

[@MiQBohlin]

As you know, I'm buying a set up …as soon as (guess watt) 😉

[@steveborgman3987]

Hey question? I'm putting a large battery bank in my house and my older outback inverter isn't set up for lithium. Would this be the perfect job for your Bank Manager

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes. It's best if your chargers can be set to float at 13.3v. But anything that can charge lead can be used with this to charge li as good as it can be charged.

[@CapnZman]

Well, will look at me--I'm an early adopter this one time! All it does is work. My daily low is rarely below 13.1 volts running two reefers on a relatively small system. That equates to battery life in the ten year range FOR THE LEAD PORTION OF THE BANK. Sorry for shouting. Water use is negligeable as well. Get one.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Mark. Glad it's working for you.

[@clayratliff7727]

Hi Clark, much to my surprise, my first comment is a completely non-technical question. What is the lead time between ordering the bank manager and the device being shipped? We're currently at a marina in St. Augustine, FL. but will be leaving in a few weeks to head north. Love the technical videos!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

We have stock currently. We ship on Mondays, usually. But weekly for sure. Then UPS from Wisconsin.

[@clayratliff7727]

@@Clarks-Adventure Perfect, thanks for the quick response!

[@shaunhull3974]

So two years ago I started my off-grid lifestyle living off lithium, like most I started with 300 amp-hour deep-cycle lead-acid and found that not to be suitable made a big investment into lithium and always wanted to figure out a way to use the batteries that I did buy in my system I definitely am going to place an order for this because this is just a no-brainer and I can add another 900 ah of lead acid to my 1300 ah lithium Bank One question I do have is, is it critical to have a bigger lead than lithium or bigger lithium to lead or does that not really matter with this bank manager ?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

The ratio is unimportant. But you need enough lead to keep your charge controllers and loads "sane" when the li is off line. I'm sure your 300ah will be plenty.

[@alanmcn17]

Love the videos I am looking for a build kit for your air conditioner or at least a parts list. Is there a place available where I can buy this?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Emily was just in FL and shipped most of them out. I think there are two left and one more shipping opportunity in early July kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2HNpnmDhLKUepo www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/AC

[@PrivateUsername]

Comment for the algo. Looks good, Clark. Hi, Em!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks

[@ingtam]

Are you looking into getting the device CSA approved? Thanks for the great videos you two, and for developing the Bank Manager.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

We are most of the way through the CE process. We are working on an E cert. Kinda bigger news is the ISO is developing a standard for hybrid battery banks. They asked me to write up a proposal. I submitted a white paper last week.

[@ingtam]

@@Clarks-Adventure Fantastic!

[@braithmiller]

It is in my plans. Definitely, even if all I have is lithium.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You will need some lead... I set up this boat with just 7ah.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/foiwaYykobCYnLM

[@marksouthworth4708]

I love this concept. I am totally off grid on a large lead acid system, but recently aguired a 500 ah lithium bank that I would love to be able to use. I took the time to read through the instructions and am confident that I could make this system work for me. The bummer came when I went to order and found that there was not a 48 volt contactor. I feel that there is a huge market to tap if you could build a system to handle larger 48 volt systems. If you have plans in that direction I would love to hear about them.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I have been working with Shallco, the contactor manufacturer and we have a 48v unit. I just placed my first order. I expect that they will be available sometime in late January. These will be the same bi-stable type as our 12 and 24v units. They will work at 36 and 48 volts.

[@marksouthworth4708]

Great news. I have 24 6v Rolls batteries wired to 48 v with 1300 ah and 4 EG4 5.1 lithium @ 400ah...do you see any problem using your system here. @@Clarks-Adventure

[@leonkane8240]

Hi Interesting video Clark. I had read & seen different videos that did elude to what you are talking about here but it all seemed to me rather incomplete. I live in Australia. I am interested in you BBMS. I recently bought a 200 amp hour lithium & a range of other bits including a shunt, & a DC to DC charger. A budget system but I tried not to spend too cheap. I am new to lithium. I have always been interested in sailing but I am not yet in a potion where I can embark on it. I do sea kayak though but I guess that kind of does not count :0) So I have not installed my system yet, being new to lithium I am a little nervous that I might mess it up. So I have come for a dual lead acid set up (Calcium), one a starting battery & the other a deep cycle with a switching solenoid & connected to solar. I installed it myself on my 4wd. It ran ok for a number of years. My requirements were not huge. I mainly used it to run a travel fridge. But the deep cycle did not last long & did not perform great. I would like to understand how your BBMS works with the DC to DC controller, I imagine I would still need one - no doubt I am showing my ignorance there. The shunt is a Victron, which is BT enabled. The DC to DC is a 25amp Intervolt. I am running a 4.2 litre cast iron block V8, a chev equivalent 1970 vintage. I recently upgraded the alternator from a 55 amp to a 140amp. Apart from a new 95lt dual zone fridge & charging of devices,I am minimal on taking devices with me when touring & camping. I do have a whinch which sees occasional use but I don't imagine it factors big so long as I am running the engine while using it. I have a 110 w solar panel to add to the pending install. Will probably add another 100w panel @ some stage.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

We are sick so not thinking clearly. COVID Start here www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms You can sell the dc-dc

[@kphyfe]

I am not a boat owner as a start point. I am an RV owner who has 210amp hours of AGM in a bank that is 4 years old. I have just order a 200amp 12v lithium from Amazon with good reviews. We run very little AC conversion just the basics in the camper are used. We never run AC or microwave off the bank. I am wondering how hard the install of your bank manager is in a small camper and could I keep the current agm's and find a new space for the lithium using your product? I am not an electrician but am not afraid of following directions. ANy insight would be helpful. The current solar and convertor are lithium compatible according to what I have read.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Let me get up on my soap box.... No li chargers out there charge li correctly. OK, now that my micro-rant is over. It's really easy. We did a 3 month RV trip through the Rockies last summer/fall. I put the BankManager in the camper of course and did just what you are referring to. In the beginning of this video I show the power system I put together. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX6TgJx3npqle68. I left the lead in place and just put the li and BankManager in parallel. You can see a wiring diagram at the beginning of the manual www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms that should guide you along. For the trip I built a plastic box over the li to protect the terminals from a dropped coat hanger or whatever but I switched to terminal boots and feel quite safe. Otherwise yes, just put the li in a convenient place.

[@russking63]

Sorry if I missed this. Is there a reason to have lead acid batteries in a system rather than a 100% lithium system on a 28' blue water sailboat? My biggest draw is the starter on a 2022 Merc 9.9 4 stroke outboard. I will eventually add an electric windlass. Everything else is pretty low amps. Solar charging with the outboard as a backup.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes. A bit of why is in the video. A lot more is in the other videos on this channel and especially at www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms If you still have questions and are interested just ask again after checking out these references

[@robertmcateer536]

I am enjoying all of your videos and have gleaned much information from them. With that said I'm just getting started and am wondering if this only works with the solar side of charging? or can it be used on the charge side of an inverter charger? I am in an RV and have 600ah of 2 yr old lead and am wanting to add 400-600ah of Lithium.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes it works with any charge source and that charge source should remain configured to charge lead batteries. This is particularly important for RVs (we use one in our truck camper) as many of your charge sources aren't able to safely charge li batteries and really can't be upgraded easily. With the BankManager there is no need. It works with any charge source.

[@robertmcateer536]

Thank you for the quick reply. I have purchased a renogy 3000 inverter charger and am now budgeting for the lithium. So I would set the renogy to lead charge purchase one of your bank managers and contactors hook up and all good? I do have some solar on the roof would I need a separate charging set up for that @@Clarks-Adventure

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You would need a charge controller for the solar of course but only the one BankManager. One BankManager for each bank of lithium takes care of them. Charging can come from anywhere If years later you buy more Li you may want a second BankManager for the new li as it lets you mix old and new, different manufacturers, Li in different banks that way.

[@markstahley2810]

Hi Clark, I've recently purchased a 36' motoryacht. It has a working 6.5 kw generator, two engines with 55 alternators, four older 6 volt batteries (12 system), two 12 volt starter batteries, and no solar. I know I'm going to be adding 200 to 300 ah batteries right away. Because of the costs of electronics, new batteries, etc... I won't be introducing solar until next year. Will your Bank Manager work if I'm charging Lithium Iron and Lead Acid batteries using shore power/generator/alternators? Thank you

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yep. It really doesn't care where the power comes from as long as it's under .5C of your Li you should be fine.

[@byronewhite]

Yay, I want to get rid of my shunt.!

[@bhartley1024]

How does the BBMS solve the problem of the alternator running at max output when the contactor has the Lithium batteries connected? Do I also need to install some sort of "smart" alternator regulator? Say both batteries are full and connected at 13.6 (3.4V per Li cell). I run loads all night and the voltage gradually drops. Now my lead is at full and resting at 12.8V, but my lithium is nearly empty at 12.8V (3.2V per cell), the sun is down and the engine is off, the two batteries are connected. Now just before dawn I start my engine and the old-school voltage regulator tries to ramp up to 14.4V. The lithium happily accepts as much current as the alternator can supply since it is nearly empty. Now the alternator field is fully energized trying to output 14.4V, which it won't be able to do until the lithium charges to nearly full. The alternator now gets really hot running at full bore until the lithium is nearly full.

[@bhartley1024]

Sigh, ok you explained it in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHS9l5Rop5KEg7s So I guess I'll try it out. I know my alternator inside and out after I rebuilt it. I'll bind a thermal switch to the output windings for good thermal contact and pass the field current though it. Let's hope it doesn't cycle on and off too often and wear out the switch.

[@douglascochen5918]

Clark, I wondered what you set the EPEVER MPPT solar charge controller to for "type of battery". I am adding a solar panel and liP04 battery to a lead acid existing system. Should I set it to "FLD" for the current batteries? Or does it matter? I think I understand the BBMS will take whatever is coming from alternator, solar charge controller, or battery charger and manage the lithium properly. So it stands to reason the solar charger should be set for the lead acid. Correct?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Correct

[@matthewknight5641]

I want one for my off grid place. Im not a boat owner but i need this product. I looked at the more place on my phone screen but didnt see a link to buy it. How can i get this from yall?? Help please

[@Clarks-Adventure]

www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@MarkSDCA]

Would a latching relay work in place of the contactor? No quiescent current with the latching relay, correct? Otherwise great product description.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

No. I only support monostable And bi-stable contactors. It's hard to know from the controller side to know if the latcher is on or off. So I choose to not support that style.

[@NikolaRadosavljevic82]

I have solar on my boat charging lithium. I have an alternator charging lead. I've also installed ACR that's supposed to combine lithium and lead when it senses charging voltage. I'm not a liveaboard and I rarely need to charge lithium from the alternator. It sounds like I should either add a manual bypass or ditch the ACR and install your BBMS?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes. 1 combining pb and li at different charge states can get interesting (in the burn your boat down way) And 2 nothing really charges li correctly other then the BankManager

[@NikolaRadosavljevic82]

@@Clarks-Adventure got it. yes, that makes sense. I'll just separate lithium and lead completely for now. I might be ordering a new boat later this year.

[@schussy]

Watched the bank manager videos and others from your channel, all worthwile to me. Read a lot of comments and questions. I Have a lead acid battery combiner on board but was unable to figure out how to use it for lithium as well. Won't work safely. Does not sync at voltages, only monitors lead bank and turns connection on or off. Really like the adding lifepo4 concept though. The combiner is not the way to go. So ordered a bank manager. Now subscribed as well. And found other good stuff i had not seen. Thanks.

[@schussy]

As an update. Got my Battery Bank Management System though reship. Going to set it up on the workbench before install in the spring.

[@schussy]

Update. Set up on workbench. With group 31 lead acid and 100ah lithium iron phosphate. Works as explained in video. Actually its pretty neat. Very impressed. I also better understand the correct charging concept Clark refers to now having watched the voltage hockey stick taper start at full charge. Can't wait to install on boat. May have to disconnect lead acid battery combiner which currently joins house and windlass/bow thruster bank. A personal previous effort to prolong power on board overnight when on the hook. Very pleased so far.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Glad you are having fun with it. You can likely keep your VSR as long as you have enough lead in the house bank to keep your charge controllers sane. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqGZpKahaayoq8U

[@Clarks-Adventure]

VSR=Battery combiner

[@schussy]

Thanks for the steer. I will check it out.

[@ewaldsantjer9124]

Hy clark, where can i by this battery bank management system?. I am a german boy and will install this kind of management system on my sailingboat. Best regards ewald

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You can buy it by going to www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms You will need a US address. If you don't have a convenient American friend you can use reship.com

[@blackduck7851]

Dumb question incoming! When you say lead in the system do you mean lead in the house bank system or are you saying connect them all starter battery, lead house battery and lithium house battery into one big system. If the latter is not the case where does the battery chargering devices (for example a mppts, victron multiplus 2 and say a big alternator ) fit into the system. (If this is too much of a specific question, no worries.) Anyway continue the amazing videos you should be proud of what you are doing, it is most appreciated.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

There are a bunch of "right" ways to organize this. I tried to keep it simple in this video. As long as there is lead that is never disconnected from your system this approach will work. That can be a starter battery in your house bank, which would be kept charged until last by the BankManager. Or another lead battery in the house bank. If you want to have a separate starter battery and you use one of these kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5TOnqVsgsyEedU you can run your charge wires to either the starter battery or the house battery (I suggest the house side). The VSR and the BankManager will make sure power goes where it needs to go.

[@ezezezy]

I've just seen your video. I live in Australia and would like to purchase one.. how do I do this...

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks, We sell a bunch of these down under. Go to www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms And place an order. You need a US address. If you don't have a convenient American friend reship.com will take care of things for you.

[@144steveg]

Wow! Thanks! I have a problem of a different nature and was hoping you'd spend 1 minute describing how to add mixed capacity cells to an existing system. Do Batteries must be made by the same company? I have 320 A/H and wish to add more. This is for the Revel. Can I add any amount of battery I choose? My system says it is expandable by 1 more battery. Thank You! Steve

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Don't mix old li with new. Probably shouldn't mix different manufacturers. Also not a great idea to mix different size cells (but maybe not as important???) But.. If you put like with like on different banks of LiFePO4 AND used a different BankManager on each bank you should be good. I haven't run this test yet but I don't see a problem as long as they all rest at the same 13.2v

[@lucaeik]

In the video you mention an EU dealer but can't find that in your website. Pls advise. Thnx!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

He is out of stock. We are trying to get scheduled for CE testing. That is proving difficult. Until I get it's CE it won't be available through him. Your only choice is www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms. If you don't have a convenient American friend there is reship.com

[@johnlazdins2004]

Hi like to acquire bank manager for lead/lithium for work vehicle ( mobile workshop) in Australia, have you any suggestions for me.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I was talking to a guy that wanted to sell in Australia new Zealand and SE Asia. He just stopped getting back to us. So there is a company called reship.com that will help you. It's explained here www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@jasonsomerville2504]

Could you publish the link foe EU/UK purchases please? I've just tried to order and had a return at payment that only US distribution on the link within the description. Thank you in advance

[@Clarks-Adventure]

For EU orders you need to write to us directly at [e-mail]. We will send you an invoice and we only have black case units available there. You can set up a us address with reship.com if you prefer, they will handle the import.

[@destro513]

I just bought four 6 volt Costco/Interstate batteries to run an off grid boat or cabin sized system using a low frequency sungold 2k. It's a 24 volt set up and the sungold burns 5.5 amps at idle with no load. I am going to get 4 more Costco's in a week or so and then start building my solar array and charge controllers. What started all this was 29 topband cells I purchased. They are 25 amp hour cells and a few are cooked. I have 24 good ones to make a 24 volt lifepo bank that I believe is 75 amp hours in 8s3p configuration. My current lead is 4s at 205 amp hours so 102 at 50 percent depth of discharge this will double with the four more I plan to purchase. To a true 205 ah at 50 percent dod. Would this eight 6 volt Costco batteries play well with my 24 top band prismatic cells? I have yet to build an enclosure and purchase a bms for the lifepo cells.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Sure that's what it's made for. I am concerned that your inverter?? Burns 5.5a with no load. That's a huge amount of power. It seems to be flawed.

[@destro513]

@@Clarks-Adventure seems these low frequency, wound transformer, box inverter chargers when on will eat 150ish watts. It's kinda crazy. I'm still working it out but others are finding this to be the case also. If this seems to be the norm, I will purchase another, high frequency style inverter to run lighter loads and only kick the big boy on when I need to run an air compressor or something. Just glad I didn't pay new price for it as I'd be pretty bummed. At 800 bucks vs 280. This whole thing is really a learning exercise for me. After some time and some changes I hope to have usable off grid power and a junior level understanding.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes it can be daunting. Check out our Amazon store. There is a good Chinese inverter there. I use a 1500 watt in the camper and a 3000 watt in Temptress. Didn't break the bank and seems well behaved.

[@brianbonner7168]

Will you charge controler work with 2 separate Lithium banks? Lithium Lithium

[@Clarks-Adventure]

The BankManager requires a lead battery (though in most cases that can be your starter battery) to function properly. Technically that "other" battery could be li but that Li battery would not see a good charge environment and would have a shorter life If you want two or more Li banks this can be achieved with the BankManager. You need one BankManager per li bank. In my boat Temptress I run 3 BankManagers. This lets me have 3 li banks of different ages and manufactur. Normally it's not a good idea to mix Li batteries of different histories, but when separated by their own BankManager they all get charged as they need individually.

[@mrtechie6810]

Could you explain how to choose between the Class T fuse and the HRC fuse like NT00? For the main fuse of a lithium battery, feeding an inverter.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I'm really no expert on fuses beyond that they must "pop" at their rating. As I understand it the big difference is what happens after they pop. The High Rupture Capacity keeps together better and keeps its bits inside. The class T could throw hot bits around in a very energetic event.

[@justinschuchat3650]

I will attempt instal today and tomorrow

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Great. Tell us how it goes

[@justinschuchat3650]

Installation was fairly easy. I did have a senior moment trying to fully understand the wiring for pin 5 (Ground) on the Bank Manager. Once I realized 3 wires are involved, everything came to life. Seems to be working well. I need to complete a charge and discharge cycle but am very excited about this product. Thanks, Clark.

[@kevinmcmanaman7774]

I guess I am one of the first 100. Mine has been working great for about a year at my off-grid cabin. It handles my 330 Ah of lead (only a couple of years old) and 200 Ah of a newer server rack battery operating at 24v. I charge with solar via two Morningstar chargers (60 amp mppt and 45 amp pwm), and a wind turbine. My lead is babied and the lifepo4 does most of the work, until the lead is needed, which it is when I use lots of power tools, when it's super cold here on the great plains, or when there is a lot of wind and the turbine needs the lead to keep it operating properly. This has been a very excellent solution at my place, and it works as I'd hoped. I am very pleased, but wonder if the newer version would be worth me upgrading at this point? Mine works perfectly.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Kevin The most significant upgrade that would affect you, beyond the cool white box, is the new 2.x system can be set to turn off your Li when it reaches a (user set) percent of charge. But in many systems where the lead starts "helping" at 12.8v the li never really gets fully discharged anyway. You might want to try to calculate how far you are discharging your Li and decide if you care. Discharging li is like religion just now so I'm trying to make my device stay agnostic and do whatever each owner wants.

[@kevinmcmanaman7774]

@@Clarks-Adventure Cool, so if I understand you, with the new version, I could set it to disconnect my lithium at a lower state of charge if I wanted? Hmm, there have been a few times when it's been too cold to charge my lithium, and so it's been discharged pretty low. Might be worth an upgrade so I can just disconnect it automatically before going too low. I prefer to keep my BMS as a last line of protection, if you know what I mean. Disconnecting it at that point via the relay would be a nice protection, and that's really the territory where lead excels and the lithium is about empty anyway. Am I correct in my understanding?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes that's the use case. You understand perfectly. Then when the system voltage comes back up my device reconnects but watches carefully so power only goes in until your Li is charged a bit. Of course if your cold temp charge disconnect is engaged your batteries won't actually take power.

[@spectralcodec]

Could this work with my RV system and a high power alternator?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Sure can.

[@raducumilea-is2yi]

Hello! For sistems that have 24 / 48 volts, some recomandations?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Same thing. The BankManager works 12, 24, 36, and 48v www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@kieransweeney]

Hello Clark, I think your creativity and solution elegance is great. Congratulations. I am, however, curious about a few things that maybe you or your followers can elucidate me on: 1. I find it paradoxical that LFP batteries can accept a very large charge current, but actually have a 'limited' discharge current whereas AGM batteries offer a very large discharge current (think windlass) but much less of a charge acceptance current. I would be grateful to anyone with an electrochemistry background for a layman's explanation. 2. In a combined Li & Pb set up can one think of the Pb AGM as a kind or inductor? I.e. a sink for excess current (once the Li batteries are fully charged)? 3. Many sailors will charge their batteries via their diesel engines. Diesels have an optimal RPM and load where they operate most efficiently (least inefficiently?). Is there a formula where given a diesel engine output, what combination of Li charge acceptance rate (~30% of Li amperage?) & alternator output efficiently (RPMs & output rating) matches the specified engine? 4. Lastly, are there plans to allow the BBM to regulate the alternator's output current either by current and/or temperature? Many thanks. Kieran

[@Clarks-Adventure]

1 and 3. Li can actually accept and deliver more current then lead. It will hurt itself if not controlled. The safe limits are usually discharge 1C, charge .5C 2. It's never accurate to make analogies especially when the audience doesn't have a full understanding of either system. These are electro chemical cells, they aren't electro magnetic, and especially they aren't plumbing (I really don't like it when people teach voltage is pressure and current is flow, because it's true until it's not then the student is even more confused) 4. Sort of. The BankManager Gen3 is going to have an external pin that goes high when there is too much current presented.

[@skimmerboat]

I have a 54 ft. twin screw shrimp boat with a 13KW generator. I want to use my power bank to run a small refrigerator,120 watts tv, 70 watts, microwave 700 watts, and a 1 burner induction cooktop 1800 watts peak power. With having 2 or 3 alternators running at one time still be ok? I can't use solar because the seagulls would land on them and poop, I would have to be cleaning them constantly. I would use the generator to run my A/C, washer dryer and 600 watts of led lights. I use 2 8D batteries for my 12 volt system. How much lithium would I need for a system like this, and would this work with your system?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

All the different charge sources don't pose a problem at all. I'll be doing a video soon about li and alternators. In short the BankManager solves the major issue and the other is easily addressable. As for how much battery you need. This is a huge question and requires a lot of back and forth. So much depends on your expectations and usage pattern. This is the kind of thing that needs a phone call.

[@lenwhatever4187]

I do not know if it would help but you would get a surprising amount of solar power from panels mounted vertically. Considering that without some sort of tracking, there will be losses anyway, I normally expect about half rated current out and try to size based on that. When panels are mounted vertically, they not only get power from the sun directly but also reflected from the water. I understand that birds follow fishing boats and can probably manage to poop down the side of a vertical panel too. A ledge over top may help with that. On the other hand, the areas you can mount vertically may also be the areas that take hard dockings, nets and other things. So anyway, it has been a great thought exercise but maybe still not practical.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Interesting thought.

[@skimmerboat]

@@lenwhatever4187 Regardless, the engines run every night when I'm on the fishing grounds working, so the power is there to charge the battery bank. I'm just trying to run my generator less. If I save $25 a day in fuel, by running my generator 12 hours instead of 24hours a day, it will add up at the end of the year. I have to replace my 2 8D batteries every 2 years, with all my electronics, lights, pumps and everything else that is 12 volt is quite a drain. Last set of 8D batteries I bought were $500 and that was before the price of everything went up. So if I can get a few more years out of them, more money saved. I like the idea of the lithium keeping the lead acid charged.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes if an engine is running, why not use it for power I agree. I'm doing some work with a European truck manufacturer. Both my BankManager and my low voltage a/c. No need for solar as that big case alternator is spinning for so long the air conditioning is basically free off batteries later. Also easy compliance with engine idling regulations.

[@philbrooke-little7082]

I thought low voltage over charging was going to be an issue so I built protection against it into my BMS but, over time, I have found it actually wasn’t needed. The reason being that, with high voltage charge cutoff at 14v and all charge sources set for lead acid at 14.4-14.7v 14v was achieved at higher than the full charge current. Engine charging of course got it there no problem and, on a good solar day again it is reached at a good current. On a poor solar day the batteries don’t reach that voltage or even close because power is being used or, if it’s borderline and current is dropping then the end of the day happens and charging stops. I ended up commenting out the code. I found that a cut off of 14v was within an amp hour of so of full approximately. Of course it was closer with low current than high current but that is good as it means the batteries aren’t taking high current right up until brim full which I avoid as per cell spec. I often let the lead carry the load from midnight to sunrise and when the relay pulls in in the morning the connecting current is briefly around 20A as the lead are still pretty full and the lithium are a bit depleted from the evening’s use, the difference today was 13.28 to 12.5 and the initial current was 14A. I do very much advocate lithium hybrid as a working setup rather than one that sits idle however if I did need to leave it idle I would simply change the charge disconnect voltage to the 13.1-13.2v area. It’s not a precise as percent but good enough. I find regular cycling makes percent fairly accurate though prolonged periods with a full charge can make it drift though I can adjust efficiency to compensate or do it automatically. I don’t hold with the idea, suggested above somewhere, of letting the battery go down to a certain level before allowing recharge, in the real world we need to take charge as and when it is available and it is one of the main beauties of lithium that we can do that. All that said congratulations on getting your controller to market, I ran out of interest once I had developed mine, the fun was designing and building it and by then batteries were being built with very capable BMS’s that are fully programmable rather than the apologies for BMSs that the original ‘drop in’ (they weren’t) replacements had that would have been wholly unsuited to hybrid.

[@winmosser]

Currently I have a DC-DC charger between my lead acid and lithium to protect the 100A lithium BMS from high surge currents from windlass, electric winch and 2kw inverter (these loads are connected to the lead acid batt). Two solar panels have dedicated Victron controllers each, programmed for default lithium in the settings. If I go with a BBMS will I need to remove the DC-DC charger, and if so would I be (once again) placing my lithium BMS in danger from high current spikes from the windlass etc.?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I have a setting in the BankManager that disconnects your Li from the circuit when the discharge current goes over your set point. Assuming you are running your engine while raising anchor (or other charge sources) your lead voltage will soon come back up to where the li was at the time of disconnect and your Li will be reattached. Most likely you wouldn't even notice it. (There is also a synergistic effect of the li voltage going down during high draw below 12.8v and the lead steps in and helps) Yes you would lose your DC-dc. And you would set your victrons to lead. You would also lose the loss and slow charging from the dc-dc. You lose the risk of discharging your starter battery if you leave the diesel switch on. As well as the chance of low current overcharge. With only 100ah of li you may choose to derate your alternator if it's putting out over 100 amps as your Li would prefer to not charge over 1C I suspect but check your battery specs.

[@winmosser]

@@Clarks-Adventure Thank you; excellent reply! My engine lives in its own little world with its own batt. House batt is a 200Ah unit with a 100A BMS (great value offered by many vendors) kept alive by solar only. When I introduced the power windlass and inverter I realized my peril wrt the small BMS hence the addition of the lead acid buffer batt. Your BBMS makes a ton of sense to me but I was concerned about high current protection for my inexpensive Li house batt...but no more thanks you seem to have thought of everything lol. I wonder how many folk are unknowingly pushing the limits of their BMS (using windlass) after doing a plug n play Li conversion?

[@thebrushhawg]

What if you have a mix of batteries and would like to add lithium. I have AGM, lead and a mix of standard and deep cycles. Are any of these not compatible with the bank manager?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

All the batteries in the lead acid family have compatible voltages to do this trick. Those you mentioned and carbon foam lead as well have been proven to work. There is even a guy out there experimenting with this and NiFe.

[@adolfhopfinger9946]

Hello Clark, will my alternator 12v 90A be destroyed when charging through the high current flow or is there a restriction build in? Best greetings from Austria Adi

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Once I get back to the boat I'll be doing a detailed video about LiFePO4 and alternators. Short answer. The BankManager approach protects your diodes fully. There are solutions for the overheating issue. Including a $10 100% fix I came up with. I need to be on the boat for it as I'm going to take my spare alternator apart and retro-fit it.

[@adolfhopfinger9946]

Hello Clark, this is exactly the point what I want to know. What is your solution to the overheating alternator problem. A video would be great thanks a lot. Adi

[@sonnylange3051]

I am not on facebook, do you have links to your manuals ad how to possibly purchase the device?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I don't use Facebook either. It's all here: www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@sonnylange3051]

@@Clarks-Adventure Thank You

[@Deveak]

Seems like a good solution for a problem I’ve yet to see addressed, what happens when the BMS open circuits on a mppt controller? If that were to happen, the mppt would be damaged but the HV solar with no battery.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Possible. But in the hybrid battery bank case (BankManager) there is lead always connected so no problem.

[@Deveak]

@@Clarks-Adventure yeah seems like a good solution, always have a lead battery as an “anchor.”

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes it makes so many problems just go away and is a reliable backup power for the cases where Li fails. ABYC says 'lithium battery systems shall have backup power for critical system's'.... Lead

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Did you read our white paper we were asked to prepare for the ISO? It outlines a lot of this and can be found in the FAQ section of this www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@VaultBoi101]

😮 a version 2? I got the first one when It got released my setup is kinda though because I have the owl max 2 from big battery and it instead of terminals it has an Anderson connector the plugs in the batter and has terminal rings on the other that connects to bus bars and as the lead it's the renogy 100amp hybrid gel 😅 I had to connect everything to the bus bars and wasn't 100% sure if the bbms was gonna like that or the hybrid gel but it hasn't failed yet 🤞🤞🤞but now I might get the version 2 seems like it has been improving a lot 😮 I just checked out the new bank manager and the user manual I know my system is kinda like a one off but it would nice to have some diagram as reassuring 😅😅😅

[@jameshemendez6899]

I have a similar setup but I have but I have the 24v Mule from BigBattery it too has a plug to terminal I wanted to get the first version of this battery manager but I wasn't sure how I was gonna be able to connect it the battery when in this case the lithium has to be plugged in via an Anderson connector but I thought of a distribution bar but I just was certain that it would work out well maybe he updated the manual for system like ours.... Or maybe we should get rid of these batteries stick with ones that have regular terminals 🤣

[@VaultBoi101]

🤣 Maybe we should with stick regular LiFePO4 so don't worry about using a bus bar but I just like how the big battery works like if I wanna move if just unplug it don't have to untighen anything oh and as for connecting to bus bar I just have the appropriate positives to the same terminal and same goes for negative although I think for the negative I couldve just connected the negative wired to the lead battery terminal instead of the bus bar

[@jameshemendez6899]

well hmm I might I have to look more into getting this manager but ugh I just wish I had a photo a simple diagram to double check i want to do is ok before I could buy it. For me if I find the user manual for something I'm going to buy and it doesn't mention anything about something that I wanna use it for then there's a good probability that it can't do the thing I am trying to do I typically opt out of buying when that happens.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Hi guys, I saw you discussion this morning. Hope you don't mind if I chime in. The Anderson connectors on your batteries don't really change your batteries from a BankManager perspective. A terminal battery needs wires connected to the battery. Your batteries also need wires connected it's just done in a different way. In both cases the negative wire it connected to the negative of the lead or something the lead is connected to, ie bus bar. The positive wire is passed through my current sensor and connected to my contactor. Just as for a terminal battery. Glad this is working for you Pat. James if you have any troubles I'll help you with the wiring. Right now I don't have a manual for the 2.x unit but it's really the same as the 1.x. I have added some menu items over the development cycle and fixed some issues. I put a change log on the www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms page. Mostly they just look different as the "black box" 1.x units I'm selling now have the exact same software. Pat if the new case isn't important to you and you want to upgrade there is an option to buy just a replacement boards. That will upgrade your system and you would have your old board as a backup.

[@VaultBoi101]

That would be ok I don't need the case and I have resin 3d printers and FDM printers so I could just print out a new here for it if I need to

[@immrnoidall]

Can I use with my inverter / charger, UPS/ATS ?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes, since the working voltage of LiFePO4 is within the charge voltage envelope of lead your devices will work fine. In fact since it's just a bit higher they will work better. The install instructions are basically.. don't change anything just add this and lithium.

[@amerkhafagiable]

Will bank manager work with a smart alternator and lfp ?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

The BankManager doesn't care where its power comes from. Since you are using the term "smart alternator", I'm assuming this is for an automotive application. Let me tell you we have been using "smart alternators" on boats for about 20 years. So yes. And if by lfp you are referring to LiFePO4 then of course. The BankManager is solely a Lifepo4 battery bank manager. That's its job.

[@TheRacdoc]

I have 2 regular lead acid start batteries and 2 agm 108 hr house batteries, will this help?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Only if you want to add a LiFePO4 bank.

[@sashalaketahoe]

if you have a bank manager tying lead and lithium together in a house bank on a sailboat and the house bank is connected to the boats alternator am i going to smoke the alternator because the lithium will take all the charge the alternator can produce or will the bank manager protect the alternator. thanks blair wallace

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I made this video just for you... kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHS9l5Rop5KEg7s

[@CharlesPortellli]

I would love to try your device when can you ship to Australia

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You guys down under tend to use reship.com to get it there. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@mpdsailing]

Well done!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks

[@michaelphilip3919]

When will you start shipping to Canada ??

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Through reship.com, now. Last we looked into it it was crazy expensive unless you used a service.

[@Str4ng3F0lk]

Clark is such badass.

[@jasonsomerville2504]

Could you show a connection diagram which shows an alternator, solar panels, via a split charge relay and solar controller. I'd like to do this for my VW bus

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Does this help enough? kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqGZpKahaayoq8U

[@yannkitson116]

Will the bank manager work with my system, which is GEL batteries, if I add lithium batteries?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes gel is lead. Also works with carbon foam.

[@anthonybrown6143]

Can your Bank Manager be incorporated in car audio setup?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes. In fact I put in a special feature just for car stereo installs. You can set the BankManager up so that it notices huge loads like the engine starting and temporarily disconnects the li so it won't be damaged by the big load. Once the engine starts it notices the alternator charging and reconnects your Li for charging. During this brief time your system runs off lead alone. This is the only safe (for the batteries) way I know to charge your Li bank from your engine.

[@revolverguy]

Ok, I have a 24v system on my house, my dad has a 48v system. My dad just ordered 400ah worth of lithium but he still has a 200ah pb system. Will this work to hook his 2 banks together? You mentioned 12v but I didn't hear you mention higher voltage banks.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yep 12, 24, 36, and 48v Can't mix voltages of course.

[@revolverguy]

Okay, here's another question. His system has a Xantrex 6048 inverter charger and mostly charges off a generator with auto start in the winter and an mppt controller in the summer. Would this be a plug and play solution? Build the lithium bank, hook up the bank manager, set the settings and walk away? Or does it need something else? Does it need babysitting or can we leave it for a week in that system?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

If you have a working lead system just put the li in parallel with the lead with the BankManager in the positive lead. It's good to lower your float voltage to below 13.4 I'd certainly make sure it properly does a charge cycle to verify your install. Get the current sensor backwards or swap "off" and "on" wires and it simply won't work. But once it checks out it should do its job. We left Temptress unattended for like 7 months last year. And I haven't touched it since I got back. We have over 400 of them in the field working, not exactly experimental anymore I guess.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

For the auto start generator you should set the minimum percent of charge you want your Li to go to. Once this is hit the BankManager will disconnect the li and you will start using lead. Likely you will want to raise your generator start voltage to 12.7 or there about so you don't cycle your lead much.

[@revolverguy]

@@Clarks-Adventure thank you for your reply. This device definitely looks interesting.

[@etagrats]

I have a lithium system at my cabin supplied by solar. I also have a micro hydro backup that I would like to add in but that would create the micro charging problem that kills lithium. If this works can you direct me to the post of how to set it up? Thanks

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Sure I think the best place to start would be this. www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms It has links to the manuals that go into all of that This is exactly what you need to make a lead charge controller work with li. And it solves the low-current overcharge issue as well. Another thing it would help with is eventually your Li will get a bit out of balance. If the BMS were to shut down, your hydro alternator will sky it's voltage and burn out its diodes. Possibly damaging electronics around your system with the ensuing voltage spike.

[@colinstobbart599]

I have 480ah pure lead carbon batteries and a Victron inverter also the Victron battery monitor. Can I hook 1 200ah lithium battery up to it and if so how does it all hook up to the Victron stuff do I tell the Victron monitor I have 680ah batteries?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Sure as long as the Victron shunt is between both banks negative and your negative distribution bus. Just set your Victron for lead and let the BankManager control the li

[@Clarks-Adventure]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqGZpKahaayoq8U

[@boan1502]

Hi Clark! I’m follow you on yours videos in big intresst and I really like what you do. I’m going to buy your BBMS in the early spring. My boat is in my boathouse over the cold winter here in Sweden. Your BBMS is exactly what I have been looking for. Since we live in the cold during the winter and are worry about charging Lithium below zero, I have a question for you. Bad things have happend close to me. By checking many test is the low temp. sensor not allways to trust. Why I ask you, if you will add this function in your BBMS? Keep on with your good job! /Boason

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I'm currently in development on the 3.x version of the BankManager. My plan is to continue to offer the 2.x but I'll also offer the 3.x at a higher cost with expanded features. A short list of the new features is Bluetooth, an AC charger option, a better way to protect Li from over voltage soak time, many others and cold weather shut off. The best way to deal with cold weather is to have a BMS with either shutoff of charging or, better, an internal heater. The BankManager can't really just stop charging from the outside without an expensive second contactor so I'm implementing this feature as total shutdown of the li as freezing temperatures are encountered. That protects your Li battery but your install now only has its lead batteries until things warm up. Not optimal but safe and for some people with unprotected Li hopefully worth it.

[@cirocko1]

So how do you set your chargers, for Lithium or for lead?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Set your chargers for lead. Let the BankManager manage your Li. This could save a bunch of money as all your old chargers don't need to be replaced.

[@jamesbellar]

This question has probably been asked a number of times… is this a good setup for an Overlanding vehicle? I don’t know how many Ah I need but I am looking at all the components because I’m not interested in buying a big ass Jackery or any other portable battery solution

[@Clarks-Adventure]

First , good on you for not buying a Jockery. They don't use LiFePO4 batteries. Short life and dangerous! Also if one component fails you basically buy a whole new unit. Yes these are the exact right thing for overlanding. We have one of these in our 4wd truck camper (see other videos). Mixing lead and li and being able to use your lead chargers means not having to change out your AC charger which is often difficult if it's an RV type and being able to easily charge off your alternator, which can't be easily taught to charge li on a modern truck engine.

[@millerbatson8769]

I like your Bank Manager idea. I've also been hybridizing lithium batteries with lead acid. The main reason is that the charge controller likes to hold the battery bank at 14.4 volts or higher and lithium iron phosphate batteries don't seem to like or need to be held there. I manually disconnect the lifepo4 at around 13.56 volts and reconnect at sundown when the voltage is near 12.5-12.6. I'm hoping to maximize my investment in the lithium batteries. I wish there were more information so it's neat to see your solution.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks Yes I started that way. Pain in the butt right? And knowing I was never doing it exactly right drove me to develop this.

[@sv.foamball]

Nice refinements! Are you looking at adding a data-out option (Serial/BluetoothLE) down the road? Would be a great data source for boat management apps. Adding remote management would be even better, but by then you're going to need a lot more help! Thanks again for all the great videos!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes it's coming I'm currently using ALL the available microcontroller bandwidth and memory. I'm seriously all of it. I needed to learn 3d printing and manufacturing to do the new case. The new case has room for a new board. The new board allows a new microprocessor. So in short lots happening. Not much in battery protection but yes communication and such. It might be a while though as we are getting ready to sail to Panama/Colombia. Don't expect a new board for at least a year.

[@sv.foamball]

@@Clarks-Adventure Great to hear - have a safe passage!

[@miketlane]

Cool product but 380? Im aware there is alot that went i to inventing it but seems a bit high

[@Clarks-Adventure]

When you make low numbers things cost a lot. You wouldn't believe what just the 3d printed cases costs. When it makes sense to injection mold the price will likely come down but small production runs cost a LOT. And this isn't crap from China based on a simple stolen design.

[@johnnylightning1491]

Clark, my wife say's I can't sit on bar stools anymore, I always seem to talk to the girls and not the guys. I take it that a Trombetta contactor would work, only because I already have one. Looks like a cool thing. I do have a question though. Will this work with an autostart for a generator? Specifically a Cummins autostart. I'll have to convince my wife we need one (that happy wife thing) but that should come at some point. Keep the good stuff coming.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Interesting thought. I have a way to have the BankManager disconnect when the li is below a set level and the system becomes a lead model. Your auto start would automatically come into play soon after, once the lead goes down in voltage a bit. So there is a solution in the 2.1 software. But I could possibly trigger auto start as soon as the li goes below the set point. Send me the specs on what your Cummins wants. Won't be available in the device for at least a year until a 3.0 comes out. I'd need a completely new microprocessor to do that but eventually.... Anyway I'd like to put it in the "new features" list.

[@johnnylightning1491]

@@Clarks-Adventure I looked at my Cummins/Onan manual and it appears as if the auto-start voltage is user settable between 10.5 and 12.5 volts. I have 3 or 4 manuals on the genny if you would like me to email you copies of them.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Then just set your genny for 12.5v. Set my device for something like 20% min charge. And Your genny will start soon after the li goes below 20% charged.

[@lucfiliatrault3755]

As an electronics tech I have to ask: if my alternator (Balmar overheat protected) is charging the lithium and the AGM on the boat, when the contacter will open , it will generate a self effect meaning a transient voltage on the circuit. Will the AGM battery absorb it and be able to protect the diodes of the alternator. I ask because I always thought a lead battery will not be able to absorb that sudden rise of energy.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes .. And I made this video just for you. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHS9l5Rop5KEg7s