Engine Noise Diagnostic Testing Technique

[@andrewthompsonuk1]

I have spent all my life thinking tappet noise was the cam hitting the follower or whatever just before the valve opens. Here you demonstrate that the sharper tick was the valve slamming shut.

[@ragenronegan2624]

I've seen tons and tons of those junk rockers Fail.. I've seen alot get so bad they will miss at idle but if you just tip in on gas the miss goes away. I work on 6 to one jeep to chrysler cars so I see it alot on the jeeps obviously. BUT I lo e how you did this and I'm going to incorporate this test method into my diags. Thanks a million

[@worsttintentions]

Holy hell, how have I not found this channel before. I blame you Mario! Subscribed!

[@TrainedbyTechs]

Welcome aboard Bobby

[@GraditelMacedonia]

Plus transducer for back pressure will show even more on oscilloscope.

[@1b9e7n3z]

Amazing and very technical as always,great job and knowledge ,a lot. Thanks for share all that information

[@VoltageDropDiagnostics]

Great video TBT and Brin! I just took a class with Brin and CTI and we were talking about the 3.6L engine! But this test for diagnosing valvetrain noises was brilliant!

[@brinkline1870]

Thank PJ! How'd your class go?

[@HansJorgensen]

I have some piezo sensors with magnets glued on them too. I can setup 4 (or more) on a component and find out which lead is giving me the strongest noise.

[@djosbun]

Hi Hans, I was hoping you were going to comment on this excellent video! Do you have any videos, either on KZbin or another platform, that I can watch to help educate myself further? With best regards.

[@downtowntodd767]

Hey Hans. I am sure you are aware of the damage a strong magnet will do to a the reluctor on the cams of this engine. Always be cautious of parts trays, lights and even pickup tools with magnets in them. A camshaft is a terrible thing to waste.

[@HansJorgensen]

Not yet unfortunately, I've been working too much and not playing around enough. But when I get time to put something together, you'll see it here!

[@mikejmardis]

Would love to see a pic of your setup; if nota video.

[@HansJorgensen]

@@downtowntodd767 My magnets are definitely not strong, they're glued to 1/2oz weight of a piezo disc so I want to be able to take them off! My primary use for them is on suspension parts where it's quick and easy to stick them on suspension parts. For engine noises, I usually have something long to get down into the engine like Brin has done.

[@glowvid]

Excellent info, got my subscription sir

[@romanosautomotive]

Great video Brin! Such a great way to see that noise with proof for the customer. I know what I'll be building next week!

[@Jo-hannson]

cool! if you have time, I would love to see a video of the build :D

[@waynefrancis5843]

i guess it's pretty randomly asking but does anybody know of a good place to stream newly released tv shows online ?

[@remingtonkase8634]

@Wayne Francis Lately I have been using flixzone. Just google for it :)

[@huxleymitchell5407]

@Remington Kase yea, I have been watching on FlixZone for since march myself :D

[@waynefrancis5843]

@Remington Kase Thank you, I signed up and it seems like a nice service :) I really appreciate it!

[@1b9e7n3z]

That's a very high school technician,thanks for that amazing job you doing and I,m following As a small child, his favorite cartoon series, I never get tired of watching videos from this channel and you are a great technician

[@nickayivor8432]

Trained by Techs happy new year 🎉 Tutorial great 👍 👌 👏 From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

[@lowridermig]

Great video! Very informative and another great way to put our testing tools to use. Thank you TBT and Brin.

[@Gusek88]

Hi! Great video, I'm digging more and more into the possibilities that the vibro and accoustic diagnostics can give, instead of tearing everything apart and blindly looking for the source of noise. Question from me - how did you install the pressure transducer in the second measurement? Do you put it instead of spark plug? Is the engine idling during the test or you just crank it with a starter? Does PicoScope allow to perform the FFT processing and show the noise spectrum? Can you perform the envelope function, or is it possible to export the raw measurement data to process it in other environment?

[@richardcranium5839]

very interesting. i love thinking out of the box and using what you can find to make new stuff. knock sensor - why didnt i think of that

[@brinkline1870]

I have many of those "why didn't I think of that" moments.

[@juanmgomezb]

A remarkable piece of information conducted in a practical way. Thanks for sharing. Keep going adding more cases like these...

[@SchitzNGigglez]

Dude, this was unbelievable... After todays class I can't wait to go buy more traditional diagnostic tools to use in unconventional ways.

[@nelsonnarciso1791]

Brilliant using a knock sensor. Dam learn something new everyday. Great video . Stay well.

[@brinkline1870]

Thanks Nelson!

[@somedude10324]

It ticks because the cam is whacking the frame of the rocker. It still runs right because the cam lobe is still mainly intact, and the hydraulic lash adjuster is compensating for the collapsed wheel on the rocker. Cool trick looking at the timing of the sound. Kudos!

[@mikejmardis]

Hasn’t met the threshold, YET!

[@brinkline1870]

I agree that valve lash is probably less excessive than most would think for the reasons that you described but I also think that the engine configuration (2 exhaust valves instead of one and one is still fully functional) has something to do with the lack of driveability concern as well.

[@ولدزايد-ذ2غ]

How make ultrasonic Like yours and where was it’s connected while cranking

[@nigelb7138]

Interesting video , what type of bar did you use for stethoscope?

[@brinkline1870]

Carlos used an old antenna.

[@pinpointautomotiverepair1592]

Fantastic as always!

[@danielgreenbaum8875]

Hi great tool the knock senser tool you made did the stethoscope bar did that just fit tight into the knock senser or did you have to secure tight into knock senser ?

[@brinkline1870]

Daniel, Thanks for watching! Carlos used an old antenna that was secured to the knock sensor using a ring clip.

[@danielgreenbaum8875]

Hi brin thanks for your reply ive recieved my knock senser today and I used threaded bar through hole with nuts either end worked amazingly well and got different lengths was testing on ambulance vehicles I work on and it amazed me and colleges I was working with thanks for your help and idea and for sharing this

[@danielgreenbaum8875]

Also am gonna order another one and use for suspension knocks and noise and can attach it to each side on a 2 channel scope gave me that idea today from using it

[@ggkohler]

@@danielgreenbaum8875 Hans' peizo/magnet setup would work great in this application. Use two of them on either side of the component under test (control arm, etc.).

[@kdautomotive1165]

Jeff Bly showed some of this at vision last year. Used a knock sensor to identify a plugged injector last week

[@brinkline1870]

Very cool!

[@gmak1n785]

Great video thanks,

[@felm3283]

Very interesting how you explain everything. Thanks

[@bartscave]

Appreciate the video and your time! Thanks. A lot of potential for future test techniques.

[@brinkline1870]

Thank you Bart!

[@uniqueautotech]

Hi in that knock sensir tester what kind rod did you use

[@nickayivor8432]

PRODIGY Trained by techs My teacher Video great tutorial 👌 👏 👍 Thank you PRODIGY Trained by techs From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

[@mannyautotech]

Very good inf 👌✍ thanks for sharing🤝

[@steveanderson4553]

Great video !! Very Detailed !! Thank you for taking the time to explain and for sharing.

[@brinkline1870]

Thank you Steve!

[@steveanderson4553]

@@brinkline1870 That was an awesome video 👍👍👍

[@DanWallis86]

Is that 4 valves per cylinder? Breathing through the second valve sufficiently?

[@das250250]

Could you not do a measurement near each cylinder to determine intensity and therefore which cyckinder .

[@darrenogorman121]

I mIssed the reasons for choosing that particular cylinder for pressure waveform, I am assuming that’s where you heard the noise?

[@anisdada1646]

The central camshaft lobe was not affected so the valve was still opening. Mazda 2.2 D engine (2013-2016) has a similar problem with the exhaust camshaft lobes and it looses power from 130-140 km/h but lower then that you can’t feel it.

[@mikecdyer]

I think you would have probably seen the cylinder having an issue with an RC test and pulse sensor testing while cranking but nonetheless great work on precisely identifying a NVH complaint.

[@mikejmardis]

Just out of curiosity, with this approach, where would YOU place the pulse sensor?

[@mikecdyer]

@@mikejmardis If I had low compression in a cylinder I would probably start with intake looking for a difference and in the exhaust after that. It would depend on what you are looking for. You could also use dipstick to see ring blow by if it wasn't one of the valves.

[@mikejmardis]

@@mikecdyer but, in this case, there was no markable deficit with RC. That I of it’s self may have made me think more finite; like valves. Just trying to get your train of thought so that I’m not missing anything. So, RC being “normal” (depending on what you are using for a transducer, I seem to find that they track more than fairly with actual compression testing once you know the correlation) my question still stands. Not challenging you. Just trying to wrap my head around your line of thinking.

[@mikecdyer]

@@mikejmardis Even if the RC test was fine that valve isn't opening enough so you would see it with a pulse sensor cranking and with a pressure transducer in that cylinder.

[@mikejmardis]

@@mikecdyer my question is, what in your mind(with these complaints) would lead you to using the pulse sensor. I don’t disagree. Just trying to track your thinking for my benefit

[@philpersonal4656]

Trained by Techs, not sure on your thoughts, and you will have more of an idea than me, but I have always used a normal stethoscope for suspension squeaks. The problem is the sound transfers throughout the whole suspension component and it is still difficult to pin point the noise due to my perception of the noise....would the scope allow you to see a change in amplitude and give you a better idea of which joint it is?

[@brinkline1870]

I have always had the same problem Phil. Yes, I believe for many, it would be helpful to be able to use more of our senses when diagnosing noises. That's why I think finding ways to attach piezo sensors, pressure sensors or ultrasonic sensors to a scope so you can see the amplitude change on a waveform is a great way to increase confidence, accuracy and efficiency. Thanks for watching!

[@ggkohler]

Can place two NVH sensors on suspension components, and use Time Domain on scope to see which registers first.

[@jamesu]

Thanks for the video.

[@brinkline1870]

Thanks for wathing!

[@wbfog]

Fantastic! Thanks for sharing.

[@brinkline1870]

Thanks for watching Marc!

[@draildrums]

We found a worn cam at my shop using the same technique but we didn’t do the in cylinder, but used the piston chart again an ignition waveform. Is there a reason you did in cylinder vs that? It was on the same motor literally a day before this video came out lol

[@brinkline1870]

Awesome Job! I agree that we could have just used an ignition sync to identify the problem cylinder but I liked being able see which valve was causing the concern by comparing the noise to the valve events shown in the cylinder pressure waveform. I got kind of lucky choosing the correct cylinder right away but I don't think it would've mattered. I think we could have identified the cylinder and the valve even if we had chosen to go into the wrong cylinder by using the partitions like we did.

[@draildrums]

@@brinkline1870 yea we used the piston chart and found that the noise happened on the suspect cylinders induction stroke and that’s where the noise lined up, took the cover off and there was a worn intake cam lobe.

[@stevepark5504]

I recently read that knock sensors are tuned to about 6.5khz. And are less sensitive above and below that. That could be good or bad for testing depending on the characteristic of the “tick”.

[@brinkline1870]

Interesting. That makes sense considering that a traditional engine knock produces a frequency of about 5-7 kHz. Had I researched this more, I might not have even tried so I'm glad that I didn't. We certainly understood that there may be limitations but thought we'd give it a try and see. In this case, it worked out but more testing will be needed to insure reliability. I also believe that different sensors may yield different results but I think most used in modern vehicles will respond similarly to the one used in this video.

[@scientist100]

@@brinkline1870 make a standard sensor and sell it lol. This way everyone is consistent.

[@thecarguy306]

Damn that's a slick looking tool! Thanks for sharing. That valve would be opening late and closing early, but since we have another exhaust valve operating normal it would mask some of the problem. It seems to be doing a good job but may show problems at certain RPM's or loads. Eventually I would think it would set some type of drivability code. Good video.

[@brinkline1870]

I agree!

[@brinkline1870]

Thanks for watching!

[@Pablo_Automotive]

Thanks a lot and great explanation

[@alanw5879]

Hey y'all, is there anything else you can use besides a knock or piezo sensor to detect abnormal vibrations ? I've used a piezo sensor before and they work great but are difficult to get down into tight spaces

[@richfalco4333]

An ultrasonic microphone has a long thin probe for constant testing and can be connected to a scope

[@IAMNOSLEEP]

Thanks for sharing... Cheers.

[@brinkline1870]

Thanks for watching!

[@alanw5879]

How are you liking pico 7 also? I couldn't install pico automotive on my laptop for some reason. I tried everything possible. Anyone else had issues with windows 10pro doing this? Half install P. Automotive and then error and it uninstalls. Pico 6 works great, so that's all I can use now.

[@richardcranium5839]

yeah it has a tick but the valve is still opening enough for the air/fuel charge to get in.

[@brinkline1870]

Awesome for participating Richard but this was the exhaust valve but I knew what you meant and I agree.

[@Everyday_Richard]

4:51

[@juergenscholl2843]

As the second exhaust valve is working correctly the engine performance is still o.k. At high loads loads/ high demand it might exhibit issues as it is there where the restriction caused by the worn lobe will have it's greatest impact.a

[@brinkline1870]

Awesome Juergen! I agree!

[@mandytuning]

With 2 int and 1 exh you dont have driveability issues, but viceversa probably yes. Thats why 3 valves engine have 2 int and 1 exh. Its easier to push thru exh than pull thru int

[@alexlongpre4527]

HA! That's genius!!! I guess to save some time, you could sinc. the noise with an ignition event to give you a a clue as to which cylinder to shove the transducer in...

[@brinkline1870]

Thanks Alex! I agree. But I think going straight in cylinder would be even more efficient. Even if the issue wasn't in the cylinder you were checking, you should be able to tell which cylinder and what valves were causing the concern by adding partitions like we did here. I guess in this case, knowing the cylinder would be enough because after V/C removal, you would visually see the problem area but I'm a nerd.

[@alexlongpre4527]

@@brinkline1870 Yeah, it makes sense. BTW I used to be more of the brut force type, but after looking at your videos and others, like Paul Danner's CTI, TST, Diagnose Dan, Super Mario, Motor age ans the likes, I think there's a nerd growing inside me. Haha

[@scientist100]

@@alexlongpre4527 no ATS, Bernie?

[@alexlongpre4527]

@@scientist100 Of course, how could I forget Bernie, the rocket scientist!?

[@DependableAutoTruck]

guess you were using a gm knock sensor would a chrysler one work as well have plenty of them

[@TrainedbyTechs]

We believe so. They both operate on the same foundational theroy. The best answer I can give is, TRY IT! Experiment!

[@David-lq2xg]

reverse v-tec. the rocker bearing collapsed, the rocker sides were riding on the cam, the valve is still able to seal, but the valve travel was reduced. that bank should have lower long-term fuel trim due to the lower intake volume. so rather than spending thousands on transducers and an hour looking at the pressure and vibrations, just look at the fuel trims?

[@hddm3]

Awsome

[@brinkline1870]

Thank you!

[@jimyep9971]

You want too ck out The Gadget playlist on youtube he's got a DIY automotive STETHOSCOPE. great video.

[@brinkline1870]

Thanks! I'll take a look!

[@mikejmardis]

You son of a bitch! Every time I had a question, you answered it. Thank you for giving us more to play with. That probe seems simple to build, but someone may need a schematic if you don’t mind. Additionally, where ,exactly did you place the probe for testing? I’m thinking it didn’t throw a code because it hadn’t met the criteria, YET!!!

[@jamesu]

It is just acting like an old flat tappet. It will wear and get noisier.

[@duanedonaldson2262]

Yes, too much talking, you say you will keep it shorter, then you say this section is not for this video and then you continue to discuss the section not supposed to be on this video. I also believe that trainers need to be much better prepared to teach, this video seems to be a bit of adhoc, let's make it up as we go along on the 720-degree stuff, some of the anomalies are not so noticeable so not so repeatable so let's not harp on them. In the beginning, you talked about how difficult it may be to find the exact area of noise, I did not notice you hunting and pecking with your probe to find the noise and show the weaker and stronger feedback signals of your probe, you want straight for the noise at #1. Worn camshaft lobe, please don't tell me that this is a HEMI hehe. This is the first video i have seen of yours, I am almost afraid to go listen to the much more talkative videos but this one was very informative for me, an experienced tech so I will go check out some shorter videos based on time then go from there, much appreciated. I am also going to share this video so you should get many more hits from Europe here soon.

[@brinkline1870]

Yes, sometimes I talk too much but I get so excited when I'm spending time with y'all! suspicion The amplitude of the noise did not change much when moving the probe around the cylinder head. In this case, just understanding that we likely had a valvetrain noise and seeing a repeatable pattern was enough for me to try seeing how valve events lined up with the noise. By the way, I don't know why part of this statement was in red text.

[@scientist100]

You write like you're paying for this stuff and like this content is not up to par for you. You should be thanking the man for taking the time to clarify everything by detailing those details for the non-experienced techs. I know what you mean but cut some slack to the guys that are barely getting into this industry. I'm a diag electro-mechanic, I may not have seen it all but with tools like this I can diagnose a problem without guessing what it may be and what cylinder area I should be looking at.