A Secret English Martial Art

Well maybe not secret, but certainly not widely known.
Probably...

[@PunchCatcher]

Totally want to see a full tweed ninja outfit complete with elbow patches. Maybe with knickers.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, definitely!

[@Fred-px5xu]

Indeed I have heard of Up and Down Fighting. When it arrive in America it became frontier Rough and Tumble. Your video lecture on the subject was an enjoyable review for an elderly gentleman. And a treat. I dare say it brought a smile to my face. And for a elderly gentleman who is recovering from various ailments it pure joy. Thank you Sir sharing your wonder video lecture. God bless you and family!

[@alger8181]

Competitive knitting is vicious, sir! Do you know how many stitches one can get in just the first round?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Knit one, pearl one, punch one?

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

It starts, like most duels, by needling your opponent into an otherwise pointless conflict. Many such fights were considered only sew-sew, but as these accounts are folk-lore one cannot always believe such yarns.

[@alger8181]

@@EnglishMartialArts That is the accepted method, yes.

[@alger8181]

@@johnstuartkeller5244 Oh nicely done, sir.

[@73North265]

When you consider how violent that the original medieval ‘football’ matches were, it makes sense that a culture of ‘recreational violence’ existed across Britain. The 19th century saw a lot of traditions that were considered ‘quaint’, rustic or barbaric discouraged or in some cases virtually suppressed in favour of things considered more elegant (often from the Continent). A lot of regional music, culinary and linguistic traditions were sadly lost and it makes sense that violent activities would be given the same treatment. Often relics of these lost cultural elements can still be found in parts of the US

[@mathewallison8815]

Big fan of the channel but rarely say anything. So was this "up and down fighting" a system of techniques or essentially just a rule set for combat encounters? It sounds like it was a rule set of the time in a similar vein to 90s NHB or Vale Tudo. Essentially "anything goes" fighting. Rules breed complying techniques but this appears to be completely "anything goes". So was there training for this I wonder. Or did combatants train in their local wrestling system and then add whatever worked at the time for the fight? I'm an Aussie but my entire heritage is from Lancs. This stuff is near and dear to me. Thank you for what you do in circulating this knowledge.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That's one of the things we're trying to find out for sure. Was it a formal system, or a rule-set...

[@PunchCatcher]

The up and down fighting and it's context in history is very interesting.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Isn't it!

[@Poohze01]

I'm so old my first thought on seeing the title of this video was "Ecky Thump"! Well, it's Lancashire, so I'm not far wrong... I have heard of Up & Down fighting, although I can't remember where - I suspect you mentioned it at some point in an old video 😜- and it's good to get some more detail. The period quotes are very interesting; I wonder how much they're coloured by the disdain of the authors for the 'barbaric north'. The decrease in public violence you mention coincides with the development of the nation-state, which makes sense. Part of the idea of the nation-state is the government's monopoly on violence.

[@baldieman64]

I was expecting Ecky thump!

[@tichtran664]

The Bolton style of fighting?! Remind me of the Bolton 🦀 ( Boston crab 🦀) at a amateur MMA fight with Jonno Mears.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

It makes sense, the gradual specialization of something into something less general. By context clues, I always assumed that up-and-down fighting was an old term for just plain fighting, standing up or on the ground, but hearing the term in the context of history is an eye-opener. Sgioba sabaid!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, much like catch as catch can it's clearly a descriptive term that evolved into a name.

[@lasvegasplease]

How bloody interesting to watch this whilst drinking my tea. Subscribed sir!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Welcome to the fight team!

[@H1Guard]

Transportation of up n down fighters does explain them crazy Ozzies

[@waynegoddard4065]

Brilliant channel. Love it. So interesting. Never let's down. FIGHT TEAM!!!!!!!!!!

[@tsafa]

Great video. Looks like up and down fighting was snuffed out by the competition.

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Great stuff! I'm looking forward to hearing more. Many thanks :)

[@pavelthefabulous5675]

I read somewhere that something similar to this used to exist in the American South.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, Rough and Tumble was the US version.

[@zachleprieur2871]

Throttled till the brink of death is a great phrase for combat

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Isn't it!

[@toddellner5283]

This trend isn't new. Saints Bernard and Nicolas both encouraged men to settle disputes non-lethally with fists rather than swords. In the United States in the 18th and 19th centuries wrestling evolved from a crippling affair where eye gouging, testicle pulling, and lethal neck holds were routine to a sport where fatalities and disabling injuries were the exception instead of the rule

[@WhatIfBrigade]

I hadn't heard this before. As an anthropology major I always find these histories fascinating.

[@geraldmatthewwebb4538]

This story of the concerted effort to take down up-and-down fighting is largely new to me. Thanks for connecting the pieces. I am interested in learning more!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It's a fascinating period of history.

[@fredazcarate4818]

My dear Sir to answer your question: yes I am aware of up and down fighting. It is the origin of rough and tumble, which included, biting, gauging, stomping , kicking all parts of the body, and grappling. However I thank you for your lecture on the subject. Had it not been for your brilliant narrative, I would have forgotten this little known fighting art which is the bases for all styles of English wrestling and pugilistic arts. Indeed I enjoyed your video lecture on the subject immensely, and I await your next offering. God bless you and family Sir.

[@lsporter88]

"Recreational Violence"😂.....Love that! Man, you really know your Fighting Lore. Salute!😎👍🏾

[@andrewk.5575]

4:17 I never would have imagined that there would be a style of fighting unique to Notlob.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well unless it was mainly based on the use of cheap lager bottles and hair product.

[@davidhatred7275]

good info, well told.

[@tichtran664]

The ONLY reason why catch wrestling ORIGINALLY didn't have submission is because of the brutality of Lancashire up and down fighting.

[@corrugatedcavalier5266]

Didn't know about it, but makes sense that something like that was around. Interesting stuff, thanks. FIGHT TEAM!

[@Stephen_Curtin]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@LuxisAlukard]

2:05 The hardest thing about competitive knitting is knowing that you will probably lose... to a girl. And you need to be really tough to accept that fact and carry on with your life.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Ha, I've had my ass kicked by plenty of girls over the years.

[@dhalav]

your thumbnail skills are getting better with every passing day.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks!

[@harjutapa]

I love the Wally Armstrong reference 😂

[@harjutapa]

Any plans to revisit good old Wally?

[@tomdegisi]

Totally new to me!

[@Stu939]

When will you cover that most important of English martial arts, Ecky Thump?

[@Fwibos]

Oi, you looking for a bit of Up and Down? I'm your dog!

[@tichtran664]

I am sure, let say, catch wrestling didn't originally have submission would be SHOCKED at the uses of the double wrist lock in "amateur catch wrestling" of the 1930s and 1940s. The no true scotman logic. Because it seems that maneuver was only used in amateur wrestling AFTER the contact with the Japanese. Although it was a pin in amateur wrestling. Not submission. You know who I am talking to.

[@tichtran664]

All I am saying is that martial arts CHANGES with the time.

[@Bluecho4]

I had no idea England had such a rich history of unarmed fighting. Let alone a transition between informal brawling (Up & Down Fighting) and the more formalized, less lethal forms that persist to this day.

[@mgunnermusic]

I think the most interesting thing about history for me is trying to figure out what the common people did. No one ever writes about the poor or the working class except to complain or deride, but I'd argue they lived, in modern parlance, in the most sustainable way. But yeah Up And Down fighting sounds horrendous

[@nagyzoli]

@EnglishMartialArts Never heard the term mentioned. True I have read only literature (Dickens, Arthur Conan Doyle, Daniel Defoe, Walter Scott etc). I would have expected to be mentioned in historical novels like Robin Hood or Ivanhoe or Sherlock Holmes (where there are clear description and mentions of Holmes "Bartitsu" style and Watson's combat capabilities. PS: Book-watson is is a much more capable fighter and soldier than later media portrails). Could be part of the deliberate movement you mentioned.

[@colemanstarr5404]

Don't know that term, but sounds a lot like what was called rough-and-tumble in the US, especially in the South and later the West. Which presumably came over from the British Isles

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, definite similarities!

[@samuelyeates2326]

Is Lancashire (spelled wrong, I am sure) style wrestling the same as the rough-and-tumble wrestling if the American South (full of biting, eye-gougeing, and nut-twisting)?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Lancashire wrestling no. But up and down is definitely similar.

[@samuelyeates2326]

Thanks!

[@garymurphy8969]

There was a Norfolk style of wrestling in the 19th century. There is a book about it by Charles Layton. Just thought you might be interested.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I've come across Norfolk a couple of times. Need to do more research into it.

[@xr33tk]

If heard of it but know nothing . I assumed up meant standing boxing aling the lines of boxing and down elements of grappling but thats all assumption

[@ivanthompson3648]

Do yo think up and down fighting could be called a distinct style? If it could do you think it was as complete as something like muay boran or musti yuddha? (From Thailand and India)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

At this point I'd be hard pushed to say whether it was a style that was specifically trained. Or a ruleset for competition. Watch this space though...

[@jimofthenorth8090]

Damn it. There I was expecting a video finally breaking open the door on the secret history of Morris Dancing, but no.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There's definitely a connection between folk dance and folk wrestling. Just haven't got it nailed down enough for a video yet...

[@jimofthenorth8090]

@@EnglishMartialArts cool to hear that's something you're looking into. My grampy was an Abingdon Morrisman and remember as a kid watching them live doing the stich dancing and thinking to myself even then "you know if your replace those sticks with swords that's looks a lot like combat"

[@snakeman9902]

Great insight into our own MA history. I believe, since the government got involved and banned fighting, it has in fact made society worse. In other words, if people can disrespect you, treat you badly and you have to rely on the law(which is useless anyway) then technically, to a degree, people can behave to you how they see fit. Now, if people behave appalling to you, whether they are in a gang or not and you can physically challenge them to a fair fight, I wonder how many people would change their behaviour? Its amazing, when there is consequences for your actions, how people change, I'm not talking about bullying, I am talking that when you can't walk away and talking is out the question and 2.people willingly want to solve disputes other ways.. Then why not? 👍

[@snakeman9902]

@bastiat4855 @bastiat4855 Absolutely, this is why today, so many kids are growing up to be gobby sh1tes.. There are 2 states in the US, where you can agree to mutual combat.. Washington and Texas.. If both parties agree, you can arrange a fight, even the police can be witness and away you go, oh God.. If only they had that here.. Rules are.. Nobody will get seriously hurt. Both parties have to agree. This takes place in a public place... These 2 states have nailed it.. 👍👍

[@alger8181]

Joking aside, the slandering, ridiculing, belittling, and then legislating against "Up and Down Fighting" sounds suspiciously similar to the idiocy in the US with UFC, and various "Strong Man" events in county fairs, where a person would take on all comers in a fist fight. Can't say for certain about the situation with "Up and Down Fighting", but here in the "'Land of The Free", the reason was all about the established factions that ruled the boxing world not wanting any competition for their money. Though the situations do seem pretty darn close. Fight Team!

[@Stephen_Curtin]

To be fair, unlike in the UFC, tons of people were killed or seriously injured in up-and-down fights. So people weren't hating on it for no good reason.

[@tichtran664]

Yeah but the ONLY way to win in Lancashire up and down fighting was either concede OR DYING. WORST than Vale Tudo. That why it became ILLEGAL.

[@tichtran664]

So did Lancashire up and down fighting also had neck crank and full nelson?! As a kind of submission?!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

No idea. To the best of my knowledge we don't have any instructionals. And the reports of specific techniques are sparse at best.

[@tichtran664]

​@@EnglishMartialArts Well that means I CAN'T believe everything in the book "Story of Catch".

[@tichtran664]

So you saying Lancashire up and down fighting DID have punching not just slapping?! As in the story of catch?!

[@tichtran664]

Give us a History on the use of double wrist lock in catch. It seems to have came from the Japanese.

[@waynegoddard4065]

👊

[@thechroniclesofthegnostic7107]

Did I know of it by the term "up and down fighting"? No. But know of it? Absolutely. 😜 (Hey, the related American term "rough and tumble" I was always certain described something that's pretty well existed across history and cultures.)

[@garysmith3173]

Eccy thump!

[@Philo68]

A secret English martial art? May I don my clogs good sir? Then you’ll be in trouble! Odds bods and strange indeedio!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, Lancashire ninja clogging across the roofs of the Mills...

[@Philo68]

@@EnglishMartialArts Ain’t the history of fighting savage though - unarmed combat? It makes me fear Figg and Sutton in equal measure!

[@andytopley314]

FIGHT TEAM! Edit - You don't sound as though you are a supporter of Competetive Knitting. I am shocked!

[@badart3204]

It kinda sounds like an early MMA everything allowed fight with a rule set with the closest modern equivalent in familiar with being the somewhat underground and very brutal King of the Streets nowadays.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes, though even more brutal.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Yes MMA but with the 19th century equivalent of steel toe capped boots on.

[@tichtran664]

And later came Luta Livre which a "sport" and "Vale Tudo"( MMA version) versions. And Luta Livre was partly inspired by catch wrestling.

[@tichtran664]

And later came Luta Livre which had a "sport" and "Vale Tudo"( MMA version) versions. And Luta Livre was partly inspired by catch wrestling.

[@matthewsteen9789]

Why the ninja 😂

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Two reasons. The first is because its secret! The second is because its pure clickbait...

[@aidanhughes2444]

This sounds very similar to the social violence of Ireland with sticks!

[@zipperzizzinski2351]

Not the art of "E'kky Thump" then?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well perhaps it was!

[@radiantmind8729]

⚔️🛡️⚔️🛡️⚔️

[@chrisrichards9814]

Wonder if things evolve like judo from traditional combat jiu jitsu because its safer to train and therefore fun, and accessible to all unlike getting kicked to death with armored clogs😂

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Almost certainly.

[@justinmason2619]

Please ship me my gloves

[@AlteredGames]

Seems almost like american gouging which was a popular form of brawling in the southern states around the same time, it including all the popular brawling moves: gouging (as its namesake), fishhooks, headlocks, painfully twisting different parts of the face (ears, nose, lips, etc). You can find parts of it still being used in various US street subcultures, think the various prison styles (jailhouse rock, 52 handblocks, etc) are modern evolutions of these styles.

[@highlorddarkstar]

I seem to recall hearing from somewhere that it was quite common for a man to be missing an eye to gouging from that sort of sport. And it would make sense that such a practice would make its way from northern Britain to the American South in the 18th Century.

[@maksymmerkulow5196]

Is up and down fighting related with ancient Pankration or French savate? Maybe this style was brought to England from East countries?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It's possible, but I would suspect separate evolution is more likely.

[@tichtran664]

Well England was ruled by the roman empire. But Pankration died out long ago . In fact the roman empire OUTLAWED the Olympic in 4th AD.

[@amang1001]

FIGHT TEAM!

[@tichtran664]

The ONLY reason why catch wrestling ORIGINALLY didn't have submission is because of the brutality of Lancashire up and down fighting.