Ep. 031 - External Ballistics Part Two

[@ShootingAndReloading]

Another amazing podcast. So many podcasts and videos on the same subject are intentionally overly simplistic, but this one is not afraid to get technical. For the advanced shooter and reloader, this is just brilliant information. Thanks guys :)

[@willo7734]

The Jayden episodes are some of the best material I’ve ever heard on these topics. That dude is the king of imparting knowledge to the average shooter.

[@giledgar1948]

After many months, I'm reviewing (again) your podcasts on ballistics. I understand more each time I review the material. I am forwarding a flash drive for you to download Jayden's brain and return it to me. (IF ONLY) Thanks again to both of you and Hornady for this great public service further increasing my loyalty to Hornady ... and I'm passing the good word at every opportunity.

[@bbdudeyt]

listening to this for the 3rd time! so informative. thank you Seth and Jayden. I'm certainly looking forward to any future ballistics podcasts.

[@hornady]

More to come!

[@wyomingcountryboy]

I love nerding into this stuff.

[@giledgar1948]

Thank you so much for being there. At seventy-six-years-old, I thought I knew everything there is to know. Thanks to your wonderfully informative podcasts, I'm constantly learning new and clarifying information. Once I hear ALL your discussions, THEN I'll know everything! Can't wait. I love Hornady and the fantastic public service you're providing for all of us nerd wannabes.

[@hornady]

Thanks so much

[@biggs8729]

I'm not a ballistician, I can't even spell it without spell check, but I knew that the spin rate of a bullet is less effected with range as the velocity and I knew that terminal performance was tied to the bullets terminal stability when it enters the target. The only independent tester out there, that I've seen, that does it right is Barbour Creek. They actually shoot their gel blocks at long range to get their test data. I'm loving these pod casts. Learning so much.

[@richardmouser9455]

Outstanding explanations, thanks so much. Looking forward to more.

[@luv2fly386]

Please keep this type of education coming our way. The information is excellent and for long range reloaders, many questions are being answered.

[@hornady]

Thank you. We will!

[@philiphine885]

I’m close to 70 years old and have been fascinated with ballistics since I made a presentation to my 7th grade class. These podcasts have been very interesting. Busting many myths that have circulated for years. Enjoying them a lot. Phil

[@lucvandenberghe378]

Very very interesting again. I’m sure I will have to watch this episode and the previous one a few times to get all this awesome information in my head, but I will be happy to do so because it’s all so amazingly interesting. Thanks for sharing this with us.

[@hornady]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@Kralk.66]

Absolutely love this stuff, helping me learn so much about shooting. Laugh my arse off when people say , ye my gun shoots pellet on pellet. I just think to myself quietly, you have no idea what’s actually happens after you pull the trigger. Even though I’m only a UK sub 12flb shooter this information is still relevant, shooting a pellet/ bullet by means of a gas propellant the fundamentals still apply. Hornady with out doubt has made me a better shooter. Thanks guys 👍

[@45forall]

Thx a lot! I must admit hearing these ballistics podcasts is like eating a pizza: You wish the moment would never end :-) Jayden, you really went deep down and I really would like to see another podcast before getting to terminal ballistics. Like mentioned there are still a few things some of us would like to hear, e.g. barrel harmonics, powder nodes, optimal barrel time, barrel movement before the bullet exits the muzzle etc. Internal ballistics part 2 :-) Thanks to both of you! Hornady does a really great job in reaching out to their customers with these podcasts, which is quite examplary. None of the other companies do it in such a professional, customer friendly way. Top notch!

[@nathanbailey9153]

The description concerning the Normal Force(s) involved in wind drift really clarified some stuff to me. It makes a lot more sense now. Even without running through the calculations myself (which I really need to do anyway). Thank you. This second part definitely cleared some things up. Brought up a few more questions as well, but that's to be expected :).

[@jw3946]

I am a nerd that loves physics and math. My mind is always pretending I am an object or thing trying to determine internal and external forces on me. I loved this video, closed my eyes and I was a bullet getting shot in different conditions. What a great video for anyone, even nerds. Thank you.

[@hornady]

Thanks so much

[@jpriesjr]

Ricky Recon! Love it! As a former Ranger Sniper at 2nd Ranger Bn, I guess that was me! Good stuff!

[@jpriesjr]

I am a former Army Ranger at 2nd Ranger Bn and served in the Sniper Detachment. I have been through multiple schools to include SOTIC, Ft Benning/Moore Sniper and Naval Special Warfare Group 1 Scout Sniper which I earned Top Marksman. This series is absolutely phenomenal. Due to operational tasking, I never could go earn my Presidents Hundred tab. I want to get back into long range shooting and will be building a rifle for both hunting and PRS. This series woke me up and has gotten me back on a good path and able to pursue my dreams. I really appreciate this and would love to run some ideas and questions about this build so I get it right. I have a new outlook on life and I owe my future to you. I have been a ballistics nut for a longtime, just appreciate you all at Hornady!

[@UtilityBi11]

Well done. Thank you for the detailed explanations.

[@robbiefletcher2066]

I need to watch this again and again 🤔🧐

[@jonathanmitchell3733]

I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE TERMINAL BALLISTICS EPISODE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@johnalexander2349]

Really enjoying these. My head summarises most of it to "get a good ballistics calculator and let it do it's job", but that's only *after* the shooter has made a decision on a whole host of choices. Right now I'm thinking about, "How far can I get 5.56 to go", so the cartridge is decided, but bullet weight, chamber profile and twist rate aren't. Higher weight = higher BC. But higher weight also = higher twist rate, and 1 in 6.5 now pushes me past 300 000 RPM. It's an actual question that I need to ponder as a shooter, unlike the rest of ELR, which at this point seems like "pick an ELR (modern) cartridge, buy a reasonable gun, use a good calculator, and you will get hits". It's more money than mastery. These first principles discussions are very valuable for that.

[@tomlongbow]

Greetings from Germany, I had a few „aaaaahhh“ Moments and really enjoyed the in depth information. Magnus Effekt is used in softair guns. The induce a backspin of the round plastic ball with a adjustable friction point. During Corona Shooting Range Closures we played around with some Softair aeg‘s and I found it very strange to see the bullet rising if you overdid it with adjustment of the friction point. Magnus at work. Keep it up. Great stuff.

[@bayfilly1]

Please let Mssr Quinlan that I need to finish my PhD in linear algebra before I re-watch. There's like 40+ vectors !!! Really cool, but so friggin' matrix-heavy. Wish I worked there !!! Missed my calling, for sure!! Loving these videos !! Fascinating beyond words. It really IS rocket science !!!

[@derickfeatherstone1431]

Beautiful explanation. I can’t wait for more

[@rotasaustralis]

Excellent podcast gentlemen. This is the very information that should be pushed & shooters should know. I'm very much looking fwd to Jayden's assessment on load development & the truth of the number of samples required to distinguish between changes in load & the respective changes or the perception thereof in group size.

[@mikecessford3207]

Great video - way more detailed than I will need to worry about. The terminal performance video and especially comparing Cup and Core against solid copper bullets, effect of twist rates and barrel harmonics would be really interesting.

[@abanks8]

I have really enjoyed this podcast series. I thank you guys for putting this knowledge out for all of us! It took me like 5 rewinds to picture the river bullet wind deflection analogy but it finally clicked lol.

[@jeffallen3382]

Interested and well explained topic!

[@gaviaoaus9445]

Thanks for all the content you guys have been posting, its been amazing. One thing that wakes me up at 2am since I first watched this episode... If side wind induces the magnus effect and also causes the bullet to deviate it's vector and therefor you get wind drift. Does one win out over the other or will the bullet hit high and right, as an example? Obviously dependent on right or left twist, wind direction and other factors I know little about. This question has been scratching my mind for this long I figured I'd just ask!

[@johnl5974]

great stuff! Thanks.

[@HB-kp6rl]

The water got deep real quick on this episode. Really interesting stuff happening though

[@raygardner2864]

Amazing thank you so much

[@GavinM161]

Jayden is a great educator.

[@DidtheDew]

Oh lawd that guy Jayden spitting white hot fire again. 🔥🔥🔥

[@PeterMinearo]

Very interesting information. I am definitely learning a lot. You could make a "Hornady Ballistics Class" going over all of the physics, and math, involved in ballistics. I am sure someone could get their doctorate and specialize in just ballistics due to how much information there is and how much information is yet to be discovered.

[@cw5865]

Great information

[@tetrakosarihondaturbo2810]

I've seen until 40:55 and you didn't answer my question from the previous podcast of external ballistics. But you did give me the tools to understand what is going on... The bullet you'll drop at your feet with 10 miles cross wind will travel less to the left from the bullet that travels 500 yards even if the time for the bullets to drop is the exact same BECAUSE the bullet leaving the muzzle HAS TO FIGHT 500 YARDS OF AIR DENSITY and the bullet that drops on your feet has to travel only 2 feet. Regardless the time of flight... I'm good now 😌 Thanks ☺️

[@jfess1911]

Thank you for the explanations. I previously had not understood why the BC had a larger impact on wind drift than I would expect from just slightly reducing time of flight. I am afraid that the "crossing the river" analogy does not work for people who actually have experience in swift water, though. The problem is the gradient of water speed which is similar to wind gradient (slow flow near the bank and faster flow away from bank and as the water gets deeper). The bow of the boat encounters increasingly rapid lateral flow as it moves away from the bank, turning it away from the flow rather than into it. If you push a canoe or kayak out into a fast-flowing river, it will immediately point downstream instead of pointing into the flow. Otherwise I understood the concept of lag-time. I just had to ignore your example. The rocket analogy doesn't work for me either since I know that almost all larger rockets are controlled by guidance systems that counteract crosswind effect. I guess I should play with fireworks more.

[@robertbogaski1897]

These podcasts are great, learning so much more. I look forward to the Thursday release. I'm sure it will go a long way to improve my shooting and loading skills. I shoot an M1A for service rifle matches and two bolt guns for fun and hunting. All are 308 win rifles. Would be very interested in a podcast that would address rifles that differ from the test rifle in the hand loading manual. I have the 10th addition in hard cover and the 11th digital on my iPhone. The manuals utilizes 22 inch barrels for 308 and 308 service. The twist is 1:12 for 308 and 1:10 for service. My Ruger Scout has 18.5 barrel with 1:10 twist, Springfield M1A Scout 18" barrel with 1:11 twist and finally my TC Venture II has a 22 inch barrel with 1:12 twist. Are there considerations I should be taking based on the differing barrel lengths and twist rates. My loading room is almost exclusively Hornady, love my Iron Press. Keep up the great work

[@mr.billnone-qe4xc]

As usual, great info, Can you work into one of your future broadcasts "how case neck thickness variation effects bullet release therefore effects accutacy" Thanks Bill from michigan.

[@jbcaptain11]

How does spin drift affect a hollow point flat base bullet compared to a hpbt. Does the bt bullet create a yaw for longer range?

[@buddyeast1928]

Wonderful content. Helps tremendously to de-mystify ballistics and put to bed unsubstantiated scuttlebutt.

[@bjcoveney5306]

OMG Throwing horse shoes now😂 Thank you very much!!

[@hornady]

😁

[@SavageShooter93]

This explanation of wind makes all those wind cosine value charts actually make sense I always looked at them and thought "no way" and just went along with it because that is what everyone said and what seemed to actually happen in the real world and thought it was just counterintuitive. No its not counterintuitive the first premise I was operating on i.e. how wind actually interacts with the bullet was wrong.

[@lancmac]

Clears the fog of BS and someone said...... Glad to hear the real and reality of ballistics. Thanx

[@jerodTSI]

Knowledge is power

[@elkhuntr2816]

If the wind causes the nose to turn into the wind, and since the bullet is still spinning, is it still spinning around the center axis of the bullet or is it spinning around the axis of the bore of the rifle meaning the nose is wobbling? How does the change in the direction of the nose of the bullet affect group sizes at long range? Meaning can wind cause groups to open up because of the orientation changes of the nose of the bullet?

[@aakoksal]

How do you get into engineering of ballistics? University, military, companies like Hornady...?

[@ronaldmontgomery8446]

Thanks.. I have a question, why does Hornady BC calculator stop at 1.200 ? I have a custom 50 BMG and I make my own bullets (932 bronze) The latest configuration is better than 1.2 BC. I zero at 300 yds then move to 600 yds and it shoots 2 MOA high so I re-zero at the 600 yds and move to 1000 yds and I shoot 3 MOA high. I'm using the calculator for all of the moves.... G7.... 2728 ft/sec 1.2 BC, 750 gr, no wind, 70 degrees, 5600 elevation, 38 humidity. I need to be able to use maybe a 1.4 BC. Thanks.

[@realsavour]

Hello, thanks for doing this. Could you please outline the difference between aerodynamic jump, spin drift and the Magnus effect? You seem to be only considering Magnus effect later in the bullet trajectory of a long distance shot but not as much during a cross wind? For example, if you have a right to left full value cross wind, would the Magnus effect not have an effect on the bullet in a downwards manner? Maybe there's a difference in definitions here but I feel like I'm missing something. Are aerodynamic jump and spin drift all due to Magnus effect? Maybe the difference is that aerodynamic jump and spin drift in the "front/back" plain and Magnus effect is more on "left/right" plain? Both have to do with the spin of the bullet, correct?

[@TheParkingLotGarage]

I’m trying to reconcile the difference between the bullet pointing to the right due to spin drift versus pointing to the right due to right-to-left wind, but somehow the results are opposite? (when he explained spin drift, he said that it gets pushed to the right because the left side of the bullet is presented more to the oncoming air, which makes sense. But then during right-to-left wind, the nose also gets pointed to the right, but now it gets pushed off to the left. That’s the part I’m not wrapping my head around)

[@Serenityindailylife]

I have some 77gr 22 caliber bullets that for some ungodly reason they say 1/9-1/12 twist barrels only. I shot them at perry in a 1/7 and one person asked me about it. I said I shoot the 77gr...he looks it up, came over later and said " if you didn't want to tell me, you didn't have to lie" I showed him the box, even gave him a loaded cartridge (I usually don't give people my reloads) I told him not to shoot it but keep it as a reminder that even experts can be wrong. 4dof btw, shows it as a 1.14 in a 1/7

[@dariosarti2791]

I wold like to ask why does the rocket and bullet point into the wind the same? Based on the rocket materials, the rocket has the center of pressure in the back of the center of gravity (thanks to the fins), but the bullet has the center of pressure in front of the center of gravity, so the torque created by the wind should have the opposite effect on the rocket and on the bullet in relation to the nose pointing into the wind. Why does it then point into the wind?

[@brianpencall4882]

You should clarify that the rocket flying into the wind is a rocket with no guidance system, just an aerodynamically stabilized rocket.

[@bfd075]

Of your hunting bullets Which is the toughest or slowest to open between SST, ELDX or Interlock For 6.5-30 cal

[@tommywise1702]

Thanks for the information. I understand that very technical points can be very difficult to put in non-technical terms. Good job, a true mark of intelligence. How does humidity affect dynamics? In Arkansas we can have very high humidity during summer when shooting in the spring through summer, dropping to half during winter.

[@biggs8729]

If somebody else knows better, let me know if I got it wrong, but humidity has very little effect on bullet drag. Contrary to what some may think, humid air is less dense than dry air and so your bullet will fly better in high humidity. But the benefit is so small that your only talking an inch or two at 1000 yards from 10% to 90% humidity. A few degrees of temperature or even a cloud passing overhead will have more effect on air density than humidity. At least that's what they taught us in sniper school.

[@tommywise1702]

@@biggs8729 Thanks for the reply. As they were mentioning all kinds of crazy stuff (earth centered) but didn't mention humidity I was curious. The air in South Dakota last visit was about 15% almost all day without regard to temp. It is never that low in Arkansas, around 35% and up and changes throughout the day with temp.

[@jonathanfouche532]

What’s the effect of the rain?

[@dankcincy]

How about an episode with the sole purpose of dispelling the fudd lore. "Modern Understanding of External Ballistics vs Fuddlore"

[@donaldconway9540]

Badass video

[@sohcahtoa33]

Question: At 52 min. 17 sec., you stated that your hypothetical bullet was moving at 2,700 fps. You then said that the bullet had traversed 744 yards after one second. All things being equal, 2,700 fps equals 900 yards after one second elapses. I realize that 2,700 fps is a velocity rate that decays with each passing moment of time. Is the 744-yard number due to the decrease in velocity after it leaves the muzzle? Or, was 744 yards an actual measurement from a doppler radar? I'm really enjoying the podcast and learning a lot at the same time! Good job!

[@Ensign_Cthulhu]

The 1000fps mv bullet might drift less per second than the 3000fps mv, but will it drift less over the entire distance, given that it takes so many more seconds to get there? How do I become a ballistician? What is the career path?

[@marshalllapenta7656]

Any differences between northern and southern hemisphere?

[@ernieforrest7218]

well to start with correct the image on your video lead in. trajectory of a bullet never rises above the line of the bore when leaving the muzzel.

[@Sageofthe16]

dry like turkey. love it!

[@rogerray2545]

👍

[@georgelza]

... maybe a dry white board+marker and some drawings might help, awesome content.

[@RJ-TRB19]

Remember when Hornady required the vaccine requirements for their employees, Pepperidge Farms remembers.

[@alexmason1387]

Is that where you work now?

[@NTCeramicCoating]

Do a factory tour. I know alot of people that work there.

[@cheme_trucker]

Please consider doing small videos for the important parts of the issues. I,hat J,hat K,hat values and vector calculus combined with the nondimential values seem to demand a little more patience with people who are starting to learn. Thought I've really enjoyed your content and appreciate the effort and work.

[@TonyMarasco-j6e]

I did a massive gyroscopic stability test . I did this.... I spun a child's top on a glass table. This top (gyroscope) spun best when the weight was forward through the fat ogive rather than the base. Maybe, bullets should be both monolithric through the base and the heavier( lead) forward where it spins on the bearing surface ( table) Anyways...Cheers

[@wayneschenk5512]

That east west thing was something didn’t know it effected bullets.

[@brianbailey1735]

Hey Jayden & Seth, below is a video that clearly illustrates many of the principles you guys have been discussing in this series. So many times throughout the series I kept picturing this video while listening. May help you and help other listeners. Absolutely worth a watch, hopefully this will be a video you haven't previously seen. ***BEST CLIPS AT 6 min 10 seconds & 8 min MARK... kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqGtaXilfNJ_q6c Obviously some of the commentary in the video is inaccurate but such cool footage!

[@stevecarpenter98]

How come this is not on Sirius? I know my family would rather me listen it it on the road.

[@hornady]

It's on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon and the other usual podcast hosts.

[@stevecarpenter98]

@@hornady These are just not something I have on my radio in my pickup truck.

[@jfess1911]

@@stevecarpenter98 I use one of the many podcast recording apps to record it on my phone and later play it as I am driving.

[@gilream]

it's a podcast. download it to your phone and listen to it anytime you want.

[@cooperjack1987]

I wish they posted images or used a screen. I understand they try to make this a podcast thing but they could shave 15 minutes off this video in explanation. I'm not sure why all of the shooting podcasts take 15 minutes of information and make an hour video on it. The vortex podcast is the best at this...

[@TheHiground]

338-06 ?

[@glocksundgeworfenheit_]

So the major take away from all this is, yes wind at the shooter matters but isn't the whole story. Is that it as far are usefulness?

[@anuragmishra2718]

Graphic interface had made these video great but without tough to get

[@abelleu7551]

I got a question about that 6dof if anyone can answer it. What would it be used for? I mean if we use a ballistic calculator, it’s to predict where a bullet we shoot would land. Even if the end user would have what they need to get the right tools to put that initial yaw in, we could only get that number from shooting that bullet and get that angle to input it to the calculator, but that would defeat the purpose of using a calculator to know where to aim if we have to shoot a bullet first then get the data the calculator needs to tell us where to aim. Or would that be something more useful for research and development on projectiles?

[@dankcincy]

Back....and to the left, Got it. Deep cut there bud, yikes