Ep. 12 - Awakening from the Meaning Crisis - Higher States of Consciousness, Part 2

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Twelfth episode of Dr. John Vervaeke's Awakening from the Meaning Crisis.

[@L4sz10]

When I need motivation, I turn to Jordan Peterson. When I need inspiration, I listen to Jonathan Pageau. When I need clarity, I watch John Vervaeke. My favourite Canadian intellectuals. Thank you for your work. Greetings from Hungary.

[@L4sz10]

@@napewno4137 nah, not that frequently as it sounds. I have these most of the times. I was talking about the times when I don't.

[@alexandercamlin8889]

@@napewno4137 too bad you need external sources for your macronutrients. Get on my level bro! #teamautotroph

[@diesuchenachgesundheit191]

Why is it so trendy in youtube, figuring out the bad... Just be thankfull he named these three inspirational persons and mind your own business.

Nicsak! Hát nem itt is te vagy a top komment? Nem semmi! :)

[@alexandersumer4295]

​@@napewno4137 Your comment comes across as snide with the obvious intent of trying to belittle. Humans generally don't like snideness and belittlement because it makes them feel anxious and despondent and most people have a need for communion. I would like to request from you that you act more kindly and communicate more sincerely on the internet.

[@peterrosqvist2480]

You have no idea how much you have helped me, John! I am constantly reminded of how your lectures have helped me throughout the days. I use the ideas you bring to light to make sense of so much. I am extremely grateful for your endeavors to make this a reality.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

Maybe you could have tried growing a spine instead of whining ? Probably more effective ..!?

[@peterrosqvist2480]

@@2msvalkyrie529 Who are you talking to?

[@ndmath]

Jordan Peterson used to say, "I don't know what it is with the Russians but man, they produce great literature." I feel like I don't know what it is about Canada, but they have all these great intellectuals such as John Vervaeke, Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau.

[@umweltterrorist]

Winter forces man to think in advance

[@CoachWhillock]

@@umweltterrorist after moving to Norway and being here for nearly a decade, I really think there's something to this. Big time. Walking in -20 on a walk that's way slower than usual, pitch black at midday and slippery as heck really makes you look within for some entertainment. Its rough, and we keep ourselves company

[@superwormhalz2607]

@@CoachWhillock 🤔 hmm are you saying they're indoor cats?

[@ONDONNN]

@@umweltterrorist great quote.

[@hunternewborn2053]

Same for music..Neil Young, Leonard Cohen, Destroyer, Arcade Fire, Andy Shauf...

[@TheCardbry]

I've never hit the like button harder than all of this series.

[@kimcleverly2388]

I feel ya. I keep recommending this series to so many people for so many reasons. And they are following through and recommending the series to still others. This is wonderful.

[@JeremiahMcaninch]

"I wonder if I gather enough frogs together, can I influence the Australian election" Knowing some Australian history & politics, makes this seem pretty plausible to me.

[@sofiageorgiou5070]

You are so inspiring, l wish you were my teacher. I live in a small village, people are interested only in material things, it is veeeeery boring. Thanks for your series you are the best company right now

[@1993HBh]

Been away from these lectures for some time, glad I'm back at work with these amazing lectures. Thanks again for all the work John! Cannot wait for the book!

[@antonyliberopoulos933]

Thank you John for this wonderful journey.

[@gggftgggft1635]

"Metastability" On acid, I had these two thoughts simultaneously: 1: I was one with the universe. 2: The universe was EVERYTHING, while my SELF was a singular point- an infinitesimally small window peering into the vast everything. I was both one WITH everything, and one piece OF everything. I am WITH everything, and OF everything. At the time, I wasn't able to describe what I was experiencing.

[@ONDONNN]

ver el universo en un grano de arena."

[@lievenyperman9363]

One Love

[@z0uLess]

I am 40 years old and have only recently (a little over a year) had the ability to meditate into a state where I get to see things with my eyes closed. When I mention it to people they seem not to react to it, or maybe they dont know how to react to it. I just figured everyone had this type of meditative relationship (the ability to center themselves), since I have been doing this type of mind practice since I was a child, but I never put a name to it or discussed it with others. Ive been using it in running, hiking, laying still, and in sports in general. When I am weightlifting, I am able to bring up a certain state of consciousness before a heavy lift where all my tendonds release their tensions. This was something I learned in yoga after years of doing it.

[@rengsn4655]

I just read an article that suggests weird dreams are a way of our brain creating noise much like how it is done in neural networks

[@johnvervaeke]

Yes that is plausible.

[@MrMadalien]

I agree that psychadelics shouldn't really be consumed recreationally and should be taken in the context of a community, however there is a huge epidemic of loneliness and isolation going on right now and many people who would greatly benefit from psychedelics don't have an ideal way to take them. I would class myself in that category, because of my inability to integrate with the culture around me (I live on a different continent from the one I grew up in) and a diagnosis of high functioning autism, I'm isolated. I grew mushrooms for personal consumption in 2017 and experimented several times, all of my trips were uncomfortable, especially my first one, but they still offered me an unprecedented amount of inner peace after the fact, and I learned a ton of valuable lessons (and my life has improved so much as a result). In fact I would make the case that isolated use of psychadelics leads you to pursue community more, isn't that part of what happened in the 60's? Without prior traditions of psychadelic usage, we are forced to experiment in the corners, and this brings people together and actually FORMS a new tradition. Terrence Mckenna made the case that psylocybin is a kind of sentient mind that is sending you messages, as if the compound itself is already enough for you to have a life changing experience without any input from your community (because psylocybin itself is a kind of community that you join). I understand that this is not scientific, but I'm still curious what your opinion on that is. So I think in certain cases, in this transition phase where we are still far from worldwide clinical use of psychadelics, some people should still take these things recreationally because there really is no better alternative.

[@al1665]

Moderation is important, I think if you don't have a community yet, take them on a low dose. I took my only dose of LSD when I was in High School with some buddies and it was a powerful trip, I had some beautiful insights. I haven't touched any psychedelics since. Now, I'm in my forties and started taking low doses of mushrooms occasionally by myself. I have depression and anxiety and while I don't think psychedelics are a cure for that, they do allow me to step away and observe myself from another point of view, at least for a while. These are powerful substances and you have to approach them with respect, or they will make you respect them.

[@JanoKutiq]

I understand your point, and i partially agree with it in the sense that if there is not community around to guide and hold you, you can still take profit from psychedelics. However, i don't think one could ever take the experience to the deepest without a community backing you up. Truth is, modern culture has cut it's umbilical cord to wisdom traditions long time ago, so i think the best choice for us is either to wait (and help push forward) the process of restitution of wisdom in our culture or to form/find a community around us to approach this by ourselves, if you don't have guides, having peers at least is very important. For example, you mentioned Terence, and actually he had a community from the get go, he started his exploration with his brother and had people who were also invested in the psychedelic exploration themselves, so he always had an input from some kind of community. I think that, as Prof Vervaeke states in this lecture, beleving that you can approach this kind of wisdom without a community and without any input from the outside, it's in itself a trap from our ego. I've been in there myself too, but we have to understand, we are social beings, and we NEED community for EVERYTHING we do.

[@dianeobanion4847]

Tomato - I'm right there with you and did take a compulsive solitary leap off the deep end to end my existential suffering and... it did save my life. My viewpoint on this in hindsight is that just as the psychedelics will produce meaningful results regardless of set and setting, whether those results are cohesive or chaotic is as affected by set and setting as a wisdom community is to (re) integration lending the experience in favor of cohesion vs a solitary cascade of defragmentation that never regroups, leaving you suspended in animated chaos. Gambling that the monkey will eventually unstick himself from the pitch alone before the hunter makes prey of him is some form of magical thinking. Taking the hunter as analogous to the predatory reasoning cycle John explained. Then again, one with the mental arrogance I had might not have been served without going through such a thorough thrashing. Having taken that path before this lecture series I suffered immensely for 2 years afterward. I didn't know what I didn't know. The wisdom traditions of the indigenous cultures that have sanctified these experiences with ritual and community cohesiveness is a container of safety that can stand in as scaffolding to hold space for enlightenment to bear fruit. If you don't have an alternate container to provide an arena where you can develop a new sense of your own agency, it's almost predictable that the ego defragmentation will make a new gestalt extremely difficult to grok. Hence - high probability of psychosis, especially if the ego function is not well developed to start with. You can't pour new wine into an old wine skin - it bursts from the expansion. You can really lose your mind and get lost looking for it. For me it has been like trying to build a new foundation while free falling. Community Scaffolding would have been a gentler way to go. Once you get your new legs in that arena as a start, then I think that exploring solitary 'existential wanderlust', so to speak, has immense rewards that can only be found alone in your private woods. But we need a symbolic umbilical cord to default reality to find our way home so we don't get lost in hyperspace. It reminds me of the difference between the little boat and the big boat in Buddhist teachings that I heard Joseph Campbell describe many years ago. I don't have a good grasp on whether I'm using that as an analogy that works here but that's what comes to mind. Don't make your first expedition in the little boat. You might not be able to come back and you won't have the skills needed to live on the new continent alone. Sounds like you already have experience and are functioning well. I'm probably mostly reframing here for my own edification. Thanks for listening to anyone who read this far.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

There IS an alternative !! Which consists of (a ) Stopping whining And feeling sorry for self . ( b ) Grow a spine . ( c ). Give up watching cheap like this !

[@d.r.m.m.]

I needed to watch this lecture 2-3 times before it began to sink in, but it eventually did. I think. Or at least much of it. The deep dive into plausibility is wonderful. Treasure hidden in plain sight. Thank you, John & team for this wonderful lecture!

[@nugzarkapanadze6867]

Thank You!

[@alejandrobermudez5815]

This Episode reminded me of the following Dogen quote: "To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things." Thank you for revitalizing and clarifying my understanding of the self and the world. These lectures are the most substantial intellectual discovery I've made in recent memory.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

These lectures are the most substantial intellectual discoveries you have made ??!? er....do you live in a cave somewhere with no contact to the outside World ?? That's the only explanation I can think of .!

[@reprogrammingmind]

no markers, no walking around, no nine dot problems, Sally or cake, just hands on the desk delivering white hot truth bolts. Thank you for this one, easily my fave so far among many.

[@diesuchenachgesundheit191]

Reprogramming Mind brooo, you post Joe Dispenza and have a problem with markers and walking around :D :D :D Dispenzas books are 100% timewaste and empty talk without deeper knowledge. John could be writing Smileys on the board for 1 Hour and it would be deeper knowledge than the whole Life of Joe Dispenza :D :D

[@danielstarling3722]

I'm hoping for "EP. 50 THE NINE DOT PROBLEM" haha

[@johncarter1150]

The rawness of these lectures creates a feeling of immediacy. to the knowledge presented, a lot to process,, uderstanding/meaning important information here! Thanks for this!

[@dianeobanion4847]

SALIENCE at last!

[@knowledgenode4452]

These lectures already give my life more meaning. More excited to learn from these than anything from my time in education

[@DANB083]

Hi John, I wanted to thank you for making your work available online. From my own journey in personal development courses, to a very small role in psychedelics, to curiously listening within this cognitive science on the way to work at 3am, every day.. i finally managed to break my habitual framing. And, I’m only at Ep.12. Thank you 😊

[@SillySimon818]

I'm on my second time through these videos and first I just want to say thank you again for your time sir! Thank you for your existence 🙏 and I also wanted to mention that I now pronounce about differently 😁 but seriously though I appreciate you sir!

[@Mongoose1827]

Dr. Vervaeke, it is such a pleasure and a privilege to be learning so much from you in this manner. Thank you so very much for producing and providing this material. It is life changing.

[@arudns]

Happy Friday!

[@forceboxed]

My unfiltered, unreviewed notes: * Solomon effect: shows why centering stretegies are so powerful * find a very messy problem where you are stuck; people by default describe it in a first person ego-centric perspective * then ask them to re-describe in 3rd person pers.: they will break frame, realize the blockage, lead to insight about how to solve. * pursuing this in an Auto-Didactic manner is v dangerous because auto-didacts tend to get into echochambers, egocentric entrapment * (buddha monkey-catching parable) decentric can alleviate * buddha's auto-didactic transformation should not promote modern individualism because he had help of the sangha * why decentering and tr of self is functional: * 1 of the functions of _self_ is to act as _glue_. By making things relevant to myself, I can make (glue) them relevant to each other * Self is a powerful set of functions for complexifying(simult integrating and segregating/differentiating) processing. * This powerful machinery of _glueing_ can be exapted to the world level to reveal deeper underlying pattern. * HSC's experiential profile explained now by decentering, exaptation of self macinery, flow, optimal grip, invariants identification. * HSC information processing: * AI neural nets often introduce noise to optimise the system (akin to Disruptive strategies) * Overfitting means to fit closely to the data but not generalize (think: trend line of a scatter plot) * disruption prevents ai from overfitting to the data * underfit is worse, obviously; you're not picking up on any patterns at all. * brain tracking during HSC: increased activity in frontal and parietal (areas of general intelligence) * they become first hyperactive then hypoactive ∿. The thalamus remains active throughout. * power of DS ∝ that of awakening experience * psilocybin inc Metastability (state in the brain is simult. integrating and segregating) * Coming to proscriptive definition of HSC now: * Notion of _Plausibility_ (here means "makes good sense" or "stands to reason" rather than the usual "highly probable" * A proposal/contruct/world-model is _Trustworthiness_ if its validated through multiple independent but converging lines of evidence * eg: information coming from multiple senses vs single sense * convergence (for trustworthiness) + Fluency -> proposal/contruct/world-model -> elegance of the power of multi-aptness (multiple applications) * You need balance b/w convergence and elegance. * More convergence and less elegance tends to triviality (eg: albeit true statements which are trivial/not-powerful) * Less convergence but lot of elegance tends to far-fetchedness (eg: conspiracy theories) * More convergence and more elegance along with efficient fluency tends to profoundedness * brain is performing an evaluation of plausibility of its processing when its in a HSC. * De-automatization + de-centering + fluency -> state of flowing optimal grip. This state affords us: * - nexus for development (finding systematic error) * - complexification of processing) * - exaptation of insight machinery into new abilities

[@natskii7026]

Great notes thank you so much for it helps me understand all of it a bit better

[@leedufour]

Thanks John.

[@jesuslozano9535]

Great work! Do you have any plans to make "quizzes"? I feel like I need something to test my comprehension of the topics.

[@Brentley88]

Take note of the questions he asks during the lectures. Later, revisit them and speak a coherent answer.

[@stephen-torrence]

Life itself IS the test.

[@SapientEudaimonia]

Or make some flashcards for yourself, or as a project together!

[@antoniobarbalau1107]

That seems to mostly evaluate propositional knowledge :)) would the goal not be to live what he is saying? To participate in this? I think that is why he also published the meditation series and advices us there to take our practice into the real world. Strongly recommend that series.

[@SanjuroSan]

The true mark of a good teacher and meaningful subject, people want tests lol

[@DavenAlexis]

First of all, thank you. Second, noting for myself here what you are saying at 20 minutes into this video so I can remember to come back to it as I'm writing about and making more sense of my experience, in service of freeing up all that egocentric processing in service to the greater whole.

[@kimcleverly2388]

I want to be in service of that idea too. I am on a discord server where several of us are going through this series and debriefing as we go. Best of luck to you.

[@matthewcote5198]

And how is your life turning out because of it? :)

[@stevewarford694]

The Golden Thread that the finger points to! You have placed before me all the dishes I've eaten from, a feast like I've never known. Thank you brother!

[@MarkaKnight]

Many people do not have the fortune of being part of a sangha or learning institution. The Buddha also says that if you cannot find a wise person to walk with, walk on alone. I have Cerebral Palsy. I have had Buddhist teachers angrily tell me that I cannot hope to practice meditation because I can't keep my spine straight. All this has reinforced for me is how fundamentalism and narcissism can exist in any religion. I can't believe that self-transcendence can be that completely contingent.

[@luckyyuri]

Great work JV, thank you!

[@renarsabele2798]

Definitely favorite so far.

[@frankdimeglio8216]

The integrated extensiveness of thought AND description is improved in the truly superior mind. By Frank Martin DiMeglio

[@dorothyrutto2552]

I am so happy i found you John. Your series have helped me understand myself and my hyperlexic daughter. Thank you so much .

[@becoming_conscious]

Utterly fantastic

[@Remy.-]

No sir, THANK YOU very much for your time! this is the first episode of which i made notes and re-read them, a great cognitive enhancement i must say ^^

[@Beederda]

I deeply appreciate your time JV ❤️🍄 the amount of gratitude i show is but feeble to what you deserve i am glad you allow me and so many others to self educate from your work ❤️ Jordan Peterson recommended you and you both are making a big difference in the words I can not form from what my experience was like in the events of the last 8 or so months of my life. So as I continue to binge your work i also want to feed the algorithm to what I believe needs way more spotlight you shown me about the Solomon paradox i knew i do this but had no idea there was terminology to what i seem to do on the regular from a deeper understanding of myself I continue to keep learning always a student to my own abilities. So thank you again for YOUR time and work I appreciate others time more than my own but to borrow yours is an honour i can’t believe i get to share 😊

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.

[@saintsword23]

As oftenly dismissed as the MBTI is in the academy, its underlying notion of cognitive functions contains a lot of similar information. The cognitive function of Ne (Extraverted Intuition) is all about breaking patterns to reveal new insights...new connections between previously disparate concepts. Its opposite is Si (Introverted Sensing), which is all about leaning into what's familiar and reliable. The cognitive function of Ti (Introverted Thinking) contains the notion of "optimal grip," as it is constantly working out both the patterns and details until stuff "makes sense" and "fits together." Its opposite is Fe (Extraverted Feeling), which is a very pro-social function that is more apt to believe whatever the social environment asks it to believe rather than working it out for itself like Ti. Te (Extraverted Thinking) is the function most involved with the question, "Are the patterns I'm seeing the patterns that are in the world?" as its main interest is in figuring out what actually works. Its opposite is Fi (Introverted Feeling), which is usually unconcerned about what works and is more concerned about how it makes people feel.

[@bettermentprojectnotes808]

It seems to me that dreams are away our mind brakes frame as well.

[@aryanz66]

It's like poetry

[@RudradeepMukherjee]

Thank you Prof. Vervaeke for your lecture series. I am thankful for your insight on why traditions developed around meditative practices that can generate higher states of consciousness. Appreciate your decision to upload these lectures. (I came across your name from a fellow batchmate while pursuing neuroscience masters.)

[@TitanIapetus]

Everytime he finishes one of these and says, "Thank you very much for your time." I feel like Wayne when he meets Alice Cooper. "I'M NOT WORTHY!" I've gotten so much from these lectures so far that the "Thank you" actually makes me feel guilty. I can't thank YOU enough for these talks. ❤

[@yafz]

Probably the most challenging episode so far! Great analogies by the way.

[@gertrudisparedes5692]

Maravilloso conocimieno.

[@mathnihil]

Maravilhoso conhecimento.

[@abzu]

I wish I could take shrooms and talk to someone as knowledgeable as Mr Vervaeke about the experiences I’ve had. So far this series has been very interesting, I’ll probably end up watching it again because of the sheer amount of information.

[@CarlosPerezFerrer]

Sir, you are walking a very sharp edge between genius and hubris. it's a thrilling pleasure and honor to witness it. Thank you.

[@SapientEudaimonia]

Hubris, yes?

[@SilverEye168]

Deep breakdown.

[@GB-qc2ye]

Thank you for the series. The best I’ve seen in KZbin. This duality: meta differentiation / meta integration, and the meta-stability concept, reminded me of how the West, in its quest to integrate, is producing meta differentiation, but disrupting in the process - in its politically correct credo and intersectional mania - the chance at integration and social-cultural transcendence. I apologize for the politicizing of the matter. It just popped up to mind. I guess the blending conceptual mind is always pulling out of a hat, this sort of instantiations. Thanks again for the excellent content and your extraordinary presenting skills.

[@YogGroove]

Shit. Now I'm all caught up and have no more to watch. I have to wait weekly like everyone else!

[@dianeobanion4847]

I watch them over and over again. I have no formal education in any of this so I have to hang on every sentence, sometimes pause and connect the dots to make sure I'm grasping it. It's been a living lecture for me and I find that rewatching previous episodes I experience that reciprocal learning exchange. I'm different so the material is different. It's beautiful. It does feel like "love" .

[@marivn8156]

No, no, no John, thank YOU very much for your time, knowledge and willingness to share it with the world a big thanks from New Zealand 😘

[@Bradtheartguy]

Great! Amazing! I had a higher consciousness experience years ago and since then I've been searching for a way to understand it in a rational way. I don't know if it's possible, but I think you're on the right track. Thank you for this lecture series!

[@ajb7786]

It wasn't a higher consciousness experience. It was a lower consciousness experience. You'd be better off training yourself through discipline to care more about virtue than virtue signaling.

[@Bradtheartguy]

@@ajb7786 I guess we can both work on that. Thank you.

[@dinismantas7265]

Very difficult to find communities and teachers that would guide us in these practices.

[@JanoKutiq]

if you can't find guides, at least find peers, that it's very helpful and needed.

[@alfredhitchcock45]

That is true, in fact, I tried looking for one in vain. So I guess we are back to being one with ourselves: “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you”

[@dinismantas7265]

@@alfredhitchcock45 I wrote this about 2 years ago, since then John Vervaeke ran a meditation/contemplation practice course here on youtube. Excellent material. I think it is still available on this channel.

[@wanderingpoet9999]

I am glad you mentioned the problem of the autodidact. I had been wanting to say as the series progressed that insight / Awakening experiences do not always work out well. Having been part of a Buddhist community for 40 years I have seen great break-throughs but also cases where higher states of consciousness do not do people any good or are even detrimental. Sometimes it turns you into an autodidact and you cut yourself off from others, even if you are nominally part of a Sangha. Also your friends may be confused or even threatened when they hear about your experience - the isolation may not be entirely your fault... In such isolation there is a hardening or literalising around the description of the experience as opposed to the experience itself. The positive or the negative aspects can be literalised. One is literally now fully realised and there is no need to make any further effort - everything one does, even if it apparently comes from a negative state, is now perfect... Or, the world or even oneself now quite literally does not exist, a gulph of nihilism opens up. I have not seen this caused by psychedelics in my community nobody takes them, but I have seen such contra-normative results produced by hardcore insight reflection with insufficient calming meditation experience, or too much focusing inwardly on the nature of 'this mind', not balanced by turning attention insightfully and lovingly outwards to the world. Plus often insufficient effective Sangha. Part of the problem in current conditions can be thinking that a one-to-one correspondence by email constitutes effective Sangha.

[@alfredhitchcock45]

Thanks for this real world example. He tends to idealize communities when in fact they are as broken as self egoes

[@dospook]

Loving the whole series. Started in mid twenties to maybe 34, then decided I best begin where you began. I so much appreciate the framing and process of 💬 and style of presentation. - My contention with your content is that the science of Cognition DOES SEEM TO BE LIMITED within non- eccentric parameters. Namely the denoting Science as it deals with the real and observable, and hence doesn't speak upon claims of the super/supre natural. And I like that you defined the rhetorical salience as something I see as initial precursors to propaganda. You say There is SO MUCH BULLSHIT out there, and then attempt successfully to note borders between relative topics within the acceptable areana of scientific cognition; while you reiterate towards Wisdom per se, or par excellence!! All the while eschewing the eccentric claims which your tone suggests are hallucination! Or incorrect- error reading (pardon I'm paraphrasing a memory of your videos so far). Yet, I suppose that the inclusive exclusive division of domains such as between the Real and Unreal , between Natural and Supernatural, seems to be non-variable aka invariant itself. Meaning that even with your read and appeal of Buddhistuc Awakeness and it's components and entailments you still purport to keep the topics of enlightenment contained WITHIN a non- super natural domain of explanation. It rubs against my grain. (Almost like an offense. Errrr more like a limited preference for one particular martial art. Ur salient choice or preference.) I suppose that the Science of Cognition aka Cognitive Science, STILL demeans the domain(s) of that which it cannot test, will condone the tangent with the (claimed) unknown as Delusional, Hallucinated, Imagined, dream- like, and Unreal. Which I find an invariant normative adherence. I suppose it allows for YOUR most robust TAKE on the cosmos, and most supposedly "enlightened " colleges would claim agreement. Sighs. My discontent with your series is your seemingly invariant adherence to a limit of interpretation about What all these Authors and figured WERE ON ABOUT as well as, what I sense is your diminished definition of what Myth and what IS Mythic. THESE patterns within your series at noted. Like most. And I'm not trying to sound profound by suggesting that an additional Axis Placement or at least an axis- extension on your part, which extended into what you secular descriptivists call super-natural or bullshit, or not real- and hence not WORTH your attention, IS A UTILITARIAN LOYALTY to your claim ON the "empirical world". In other words, you may not have had ex party experiences nor interactions with non biologic non-earhly technologic "entities". And due to this, like your relationship to objects as static- consistencies you BELIEVE , ASSUME , and speak to KNOW, that invariant nature of there (an objects) properties. Never spending time looking for the actual Counterfeit. Assumptions that Claims of seeing and feeling another person which others CANNOT see, delimits claimed experience as hallucination or delusional. That utilitarianism umbrage which YOU, You John and your ilk, uphold and define as such, ward off your ability to become MORE wise. IF YOU CANNOT extend an axis into a non defamation field towards what are now summarily deemed as hallucination, then KNOW JOHN that like your distain of rhetorical bullshit artists who quest to veer men away from importance and of whom are but on a quest for MONEY, you are hypocritical in your same yet counterfeit humility towards garnering SOME coin for your works as well. And (sighs) I'm sure your cognitive science field itself you proffer as appropriately True. I think what I'm saying so I don't sound like I'm lying or being a dick of arrogance, is just that I REALLY REALLY do enjoy hearing how your found the cherries within the authors and works which you've so nicely made a brilliant series out of, it's that the conflation if magic with myth with hallucination seems to, IN A GREATER "ACTUALITY" be missed by you, settled to you and around you. And that you comfort in your wise resignation to your place in and within this field of interest. As if the field itself is well plotted, limited and it's domains are settled . As if A RADICAL re-read, a re-cherry-picking and reapproach to (IM-)PRACTICAL ENLIGHTENMENT is the actual missing cherry on your presumption's limitations. Granted I haven't listened to 2/3 rds of your series yet, yet I am inclined to speculate that Morrison's "Make the Myths" line is relegated to a flippant non- experienced definitive outline of what a myth isn't. - I do hope I could speak with you sometime about dialetheistic arts and behaviors, but I also so do wish John that now that you've completed this great work, that you would more heavily weight the idea that YOU!!! need to unlearn what it is held as base, or essential in the root and stem of your thinking. The road is narrow, very narrow I understand. It's also walked down the wrong way and presumed STRAIGHT. There is MORE out "there" John! You mustn't absolve the absurd nor behave so invariantly to your object portals. I worry that you John need further non presumptive reach, beyond what you eschew, at the exclusion of caring for your family, and then a constriction in order for a greater para- enlightenment, which I'm suspecting via "absence of information," that you have not entered it validated the tangent. Cheers

[@accadia1983]

Ah, the A.I. episode. 20:00 interesting to hear for Artificial Neural Network initial weights randomization, nodes pruning and sampling to be placed under disruptive techniques! 27:00 optimization: find the sweet spot of finding real patterns

[@g.c.9904]

Taking notes: ... in order to have insight one must forget John Vervaeke..

[@mediocrates3416]

Buddhism is about comfort: life is suffering. I persue coherence: the way to life is truth.

[@ENOC772]

I believe that the idea of been "nobody" in GOT, do it by Arya Stark, is just this liberation of the ego that helps a warrior to be as great as it can be. When you are nobody, you can be anybody or everybody, all in one, one in all. To be nobody is the path to be the best "you", you can be. Without all the stigmas of society, personal subjectivity, prejudice and stereotipes, you become a free version of you, a full version of you without the burden of the cultural narrative of yourself. To be free, realy free, you need to loose your "narrative you" or your ego, that means your historical and cultural version of what society and parents, friends and even your self has told you or convince you to be. Is the death of the heroe, to be reborn. In the film Matrix, Mr. Anderson has to die so Neo can be fully alive.

[@SapientEudaimonia]

I find the last part invaluable. 51:34 - 53:30

[@beinggregory]

Dear John, I have been taking in your series of lectures with passing interest. I am generally not a fan of Cognitive Science, as currently conceived and practiced, often a subtlety-free pillaging of other disciplines for pop-Academia purposes. Yet you and I share an interest in getting the mind out of the head, in caring about 'psycho-technologies' like mindfulness, ritual, altered states, in situating things in the history of ideas, and in ultimately aiming for wisdom. That's a whole lot in common. I also appreciate how careful, earnest, thoughtful, and enthusiastic you can be. That said, I do have one critical response that runs deep through a number of the first dozen lectures. You are excited about a trend toward embodying/extending/enactivizing the mind; yet an implicit acceptance of internalism about cognition and thus about consciousness (not uncommon in your field, I find) lands you right back into a Cartesian dualism framework and in all the presuppositions that such dualism brings. Indeed in the many references to 'self transcendence' you make I can never quite tell if the phrase is meant to get rid of it or to meta-position toward it or to transform it. You seem willy-nilly to mostly gesture toward the latter. But then, with the dualism left in place this can diminish the wisdow approach to mere self-help Psychology for the lucky informed few. When I hear 'optimize' or 'empower' spoken so often by a cognitive scientist I'm tempted to release the safety from my Browning, as the saying goes. True, you say you only want to address the meaning crisis problem and not the mind-body problem, but these end up being twin brothers from separate mothers on your own reckoning. It's just no good keeping a cognition-based self intact while through psycho-technologies trying to get at the fabric of reality. My own work-around here, by the way, is to locate consciousness itself as spread out in the world, not spread that is from an intial vantage point of a brain, but through an all out mind-object identity. You simply are what you are conscious of, period, a strict identity obtains. Consciousness has thus been hidden in plain sight all along. I'm inclined to suggest that your 'break frame' and 'higher states' and 'buddha-awakening' analysis might fit my view slightly better than yours. But that's another conversation. On with the story, on with the story... Gregory Owcarz

[@kacperbilozor]

Consciousness hidden in plain sight. An all out mind-object (subject-object?) identity. You are what you are conscious of. Please elaborate! 😵‍💫

[@sb9512]

Sorry, you are not making any sense to me and you sound a little like that divination teacher in Harry Potter 😂 No offense but try to be less cryptic

[@beinggregory]

@@sb9512 Hi Sophie, Yes, i'm sorry to have been cryptic in my rather lengthy note to John Vervaeke. I have since softened in my criticisms and developed in my appreciation of his project. I am currently viewing the forty-fifth episode on this series. So, I plan to write to Vervaeke again and soon and at length. As a mind-object identity theorist about consciousness I think that he and I have a lot to discuss. Might I suggest looking over some things at Riccardo Manzotti's website to get the gist of my own views. We work together but he is the 'front man' you might say. Hope this helps, Gregory

[@anzolomyer4584]

Just writing these thoughts down for myself so they stop nagging me. But it seems there is something profoundly selfish about the self-lessness of the flow state? Like an almost holy disregard for everything but what you are engaged in. When you are "flow" writing, the characters, the scenes, everything just come out of you fluently; when you are "flowing" musically, you are really caught up in the musical moment. And so and and so on. You forget about yourself. But you also forget that tigers eat innocent creatures. And that even tigers--fearsome creatures that they are--have to suffer through hunger, and all of the environmental elements. You forget that there are innocent people who are born into very cruel homes and they experience all sorts of ungodly things. There is a big part of me that feels horrified aligning myself with this world and feeling "at one" with these things, and being deeply happy for their existence. I'm also wondering why--upon having his "awakening" experience--the Buddha (as I understand it) came out with a seemingly negative viewpoint of the world. That we must escape it. He didn't have the viewpoint, for instance, that we must cultivate worldly-wisdom, have happy families, and teach our children our wisdom so they can thrive in this beautiful world. In any case, I'm definitely watching this entire series. I love it so far. It re-contextualizes things I already thought I knew well. But these thoughts are just a bookmark of sorts. And also a way of yelling into the void so I can keep listening. It's so cool and brilliant that there is literally a 50-hour series of all these really well-considered and deeply thoughtful meditations on the internet for free. It's as cool to me as that tiger up there ^ is horrifying.

[@mediocrates3416]

Don't glue things together; let them settle.

[@jonyspinoza3310]

🌞

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

I struggle with your warnings against an auto-didactic pursuit of self-transformation/building a religion that is not a religion. I am not sure that I am in fact auto-didactic. I grew up and eagerly participated in the Church up until my mid/late 20’s; my academic title is literally “master of Divinity”. Though I am now ‘going it alone’ on a path that is rather new to me, I am not unguided. I decided to follow you as my long-distance teacher. The fact that I am pursuing the path on my own is not by choice (only), but by necessity. I do have dear friends I can discuss these things with, but they themselves are on different paths. As far as the Discord community is concerned, I have disruptive technical difficulties with the system for some reason, and that’s not conductive to a fruitful gathering. (And - I put this in brackets cause it’s a lame excuse - I am not one who ever goes out in search of something; I follow the crumbs as it’s presented to me). I hear you and Zak when you say it’s important that the religion that is not a religion should be transferable to the next generation, to children, and hence it should be created/practiced within a community. But what if my aim is not to create something for others, something transferable? What if I’m simply fascinated with and pulled towards the beauty of the path? But - I know - what is the point of self-transformation if it does not benefit anyone else? Is it even self-transformation then? (You see my struggle here. 😊) I’m not really worried about me (so you need not be either), but I do feel guilty every time you criticize the auto-didactic and eclectic approach. So, here’s my apology. 😉

[@Jacob-fd9nm]

This is something I also struggle with a lot. Though I think the dangers with an AD approach are real and quite high stakes. But so are the dangers of following another's path. Many people do not have access to any teachers or good teachers let alone an entire community, and so much is individual work. At some point total self guidance is necessary at others surrendering to a teacher or community might be necessary. I think we need to honor the tension between the two.

[@HantonSacu]

I love how you made a error saying experience for experiment 😂

[@marty6867]

This is Nobel Peace prize stuff.

[@spiralsun1]

Take the self-centered stuff and apply it to the world. Love this. I can see that you see. This was really helpful to me but in the opposite way intended. 😂🤷‍♀️❤️ My whole life I felt like I didn’t really exist lol. Just god. Saw divine intelligence everywhere in everything. I would get upset when people talked about their “intentions”. Literally had no idea what they meant. And it struck me as a sort of violence… but the world is structured to redirect it. That’s why we are still here. Why humans still exist even though they are super-ignorant. It’s amazing, really. So this will help me come to existence in my body where I need to be right now by using that method in reverse. This is why people should speak their truth and not so much believe their own intentions, and egotistical ideas. There is a higher pattern to things. Do you. Be you. Not what people say you should be. Not your baggage. People don’t even know half the shit they are doing in the world. I see it all the time. Be proud of that. Keep love and connections in your heart. Not neediness, not sex, real love. Part of that is keeping in mind how different we all are. Don’t judge. Your intention is no guide to the intention of others. The real trick is to accept that this is actually fine. It’s a lesson to expand your mind. I hope that introduced chaos a bit. Broke your frame a bit. Now make something out of it. 😂 ❤️😳 Maybe I am returning your favor… 🤔 who knows.

[@TheBotuto]

Thanks for the class,can I made the correlation whit the explanation of the Christian's kenosys, empty yourself.?

[@mediocrates3416]

My disruption was a cusp: no shock, just unstable equilibrium.

[@alexandercamlin8889]

Thinking about the problem of framing made the picture frames in my apartment suddenly salient and I realized, likely not for the first time, just how curious it is that we frame pictures.

[@inthemomenttomoment]

Innermost👁️Self, Salient⛵ Souls, 👣of the feat, bright chemicals are Way☯️ better than all Mehanical Machines, showing the Bright Flowing, Golden Global🌎Invisible Means. Pattern detection guides US to ITS G-Spot!

[@aryanz66]

35:38 That's faith and reason.

[@AdurianJ]

You could use the Fluency model on the 1930's and how it took a long time to convince the Allied governments and People that war was necessary again! "Appeasing Hitler - Tim Bouverie" is a great book on how the politicians and Public in Britain was convinced of this.

[@xjmg007]

Would the autodidactic approach multiplied not also contribute to the field of variables showing patterns.

[@davidfost5777]

I'm always looking for new interesting lectures on Psychology/Philosophy, please let me know if you guys have any recommendations, would be highly appreciated

[@lievenyperman9363]

Bernardo Kastrup is what I would recommend. He has a couple of conversations with John Vervaeke on the TOE podcast and much more on KZbin. Bernardo is a non-dualist and makes his arguments very well. Also the podcast "Philosophize This" is great.

[@robertarnold5725]

John, Why do you reject the "two world mythology"? I've encountered a common trope among philosophers and scientists, who say something like "I just don't have the religious sensibility." Obviously, they often say more than this on the topic. But how do you personally justify your metaphysical "physicalism" (which seems like another name for the common scientific stance of "naturalism") vs. a "supernaturalistic" metaphysics?

[@robertarnold5725]

Just noticed I missed an earlier comment thread on this topic from a month ago. But also noticed that so far no one has dealt with justifying one metaphysics over another. To say that there's no "evidence" supporting revelation doesn't work. Easter anyone? Remember doubting Thomas.... I'm not advocating one view over another, just interested in John's philosophical reasoning for adopting "physicalism" over "supernaturalism," since I'm sure with his background and thoughtfulness, he's carefully thought through his position. Would just like to hear his argument in a nutshell, since this issues is pivotal to his project.

[@alfredhitchcock45]

I don’t think he’s rejecting mythology. In fact he is addressing a modern world without mythology. You have hugely misinterpreted his premise.

[@alfredhitchcock45]

I don’t think he’s writing off supernaturalism either.

[@Homeheart1]

When the cognition was made disabled, was debilitating and no one knew what to do about it and led to a meaning crisis.

[@simka321]

The Perennial Philosophy provides us with multiple lines of evidence that certain core teachings and practices among all of the world's great traditions are true.

[@alfredhitchcock45]

Aldous Huxley

[@trudywretched]

🙏

[@moderbro5608]

Is this available on Spotify

[@stephen-torrence]

19:54 🤯Holy. Shit. THIS.

[@mediocrates3416]

If i saw sense in our current mode of being, i would persue tutelage.

[@hollycamara8007]

If anyone needs a transcript we've made them for this & all episodes here: www.meaningcrisis.co/ep-12-awakening-from-the-meaning-crisis-higher-states-of-consciousness-part-2-2/

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you for doing this!

[@LeCyProductions]

Thank you for making these series! It's been so helpful in the way I think now :D

[@hollycamara8007]

@@johnvervaeke We really appreciate your lecture and we hope these notes help other people along the way. :)

[@DotNetBoy101]

I wish you would go into more detail about the "good evidence" you mention sometimes. I've listened this far, but the last couple episodes have triggered my bullshit alarm pretty substantially. I am particularly hung up on two things I suppose. I've realized as I listen that I don't actually believe in wisdom. I do believe you can train yourself in the skill of focusing attention in and out, in order to cultivate insights. As a software developer I do that constantly, and have become very proficient at it. A bug might be in the tiny details, or in the big picture, or anywhere in between. The techniques of disruption you describe are familiar to me. Does that make me wise? I don't think it does. I think it makes me skilled at a particular set of problems, which skill is only occasionally transferable to other aspects of life. I also agree that by habitually examining assumptions, you can discover and correct systematic errors in your thinking. I don't think that happens as a grand moment of insight, though. I think it happens because you've solved several problems that are similar, and each one makes you a little better at solve the more general, more abstract version of that problem. I think if it did tend to happen as a moment, you would be able to measure that moment in your four year olds, right? They would one day be bad at an entire class of problems, and then then the next day good at all those problems. I feel like if there were really these wise people, who got their wisdom from a single flash of insight while in an altered state of consciousness, they would be measurably better at something afterward. If wisdom is so generalizably useful, surely it would be obvious, or at least trivially measurable. What can they do afterwards that most people can't? It's all fine is they tend to rate their lives as more meaningful afterwards, but I know a lot of people who have found meaning by believing really hard in delusional bullshit. Is it entirely about gaining the ability to care less about yourself? My second sticking point is this notion that the 'higher' state of grand insight is anything more than a delusion. It sounds like it is mostly just some artificially intense feelings -- ineffable, because all sensations are ineffable -- combined with a community brainwashing you into thinking those feelings mean more than they do. You feel that it was realer. You feel that you are wiser. Everyone around you is telling you that it is, and you are. You've got the sunk cost fallacy going hard because you've potentially sunk years into this project. So you believe. I've seen this movie before. Last time it was prayer, not attention exercises, but it was bullshit, it was highly destructive despite the sense of meaning it generated, and this smells similar. You say all the right words a scientist should say. But I haven't heard enough evidence. Talk more about specific evidence please.

[@dalibofurnell]

How does one then take what is seen or perceived or experienced in complexity state and explain it based on ideal visions and multiple ways of description and multiple perspectives without creating a surreal piece of art? For example how do you identify within what you need to use to teach without? How does one identify the functions and then create new models to explain information in a universally digestible way? How do you strengthen your optimized grips?

[@dalibofurnell]

I think I have an insight into how to go about identifying the process of understanding it through demonstrating flow, and it sounds insane to me in terms of its creativity of complexity or dynamics and I feel that it would be through a type of language using movement of body and body language and sign language almost like an inaction or interaction or zen balance co reg communication and I then come to a very simple answer and I feel now I have the raw materials that I must construct and build what I got to know in a way in which there is unified resonancy of some kind

[@SapientEudaimonia]

John, do you have any practical advice to effectively set up a physical community and space for developing these wisdom practices collectively? I have been active in the digital space within some of these communities for some time now (eg. High Existence, Sensemaking, Modern Stoicism), but I would love to share all the knowledge, insights and practices with people in a more physical sphere. I have tried connecting with a local freethinking Christian church, and also with more "spiritual" communities, but I have encountered too much pseudoscience and closemindedness about these topics. Is there any dialogos you had with someone which touches this issue? And if not, I shall do my best to build something up from scratch here in the Dutch city of Rotterdam. (PS. If you can find the time, could you do a dialogos about Spinoza's work and its fascinating way of looking at our Universe? I know he has been a great influence on you! On me as well. Also, check out the rather obscure work of Adriaen Koerbagh, a close friend of Spinoza's, and an even more radical spinozist than Spinoza himself. His use of "Ipstance" instead "Substance" for example. Unfortunately he died young before he could finish his main philosophical spinozist work.)

[@tonym6566]

What are some modern “good guides” we can turn to for these experiences?

[@alfredhitchcock45]

He is one of those modern guides

[@jamesgrey13]

Would you say that turning a statue back into clay is better?

[@cedcob]

How do we get John Vervaeke on the Lex Fridman podcast?

[@hazardousjazzgasm129]

That would be an incredible combination

[@RickDelmonico]

When we talk about higher states of consciousness, what we are talking about is information density. The quantum world and by extension the dream state are the realm of unmanifested possibilities. In the outer fractal iterations you have the most dynamic variation and the most quantum information. Truth is branching out into the nothingness as possibilities. For the fractal levels of consciousness, the information density would look like the number of fingers involved in typing on your computer keyboard. The finger is the outer fractal level of the arm. To hunt and peck with one finger is low density. All ten fingers moving at maximum speed is high density. In the case of altered states of consciousness, the arm becomes an imaginary tree with hundreds of fingers furiously tapping away at the keyboard.

[@hugereductions]

For me, disruptive patterns seem to bring fear rather than enlightenment. If I could be be quite banal and simplistic, I'd say that I'm doing it wrong!

[@GB-qc2ye]

As far as people have departed from participatory knowing in favor of propositional knowledge, one could say Homo Sapiens degenerated into Homo Cognitor. Because knowledge is, by definition, provisional, the departure from wisdom into knowledge is certainly a leap of faith.

[@trissvelvel8499]

I'm in desperate need for sangha, as many pointed out in other comments, it's very difficult to find the community to integrate these experiences if you're not born in one. However as the third wave of psychedelic revolution is progressing it might get easier in time.

[@alfredhitchcock45]

True! better to be alone in the woods

[@aericamerel1816]

Now is he talking about achieving these higher states of enlightenment.. as you walk down the street 😂 or when you meditate? Would hate to be walking through the grocery store and have a euphoric higher enlightenment trip out right there in front of everybody 😂

[@gchambs]

When people make metaphysical claims about God or space elves during an experience do they maintain those beliefs after the psychedelic wears off?

[@alfredhitchcock45]

Depends on the mental damage

[@RickDelmonico]

Virtual particles, virtual dimensions, virtual time. Spacetime is built up from a quantum of action in a field. Time is dimensional like sound. Sound has volume, pitch and timbre. Gravity is a variation in the inverse relationship of space and time, a pressure gradient. The presence of an event horizon would suggest that the information is at maximum compression. There is an organizing principle at work in the cosmos. Chess computers don't enjoy winning. According to Mae Won ho, all living systems are playing quantum jazz. It is the embodiment of the system that allows emotion. It is not the information processing of computers but the combination of process and material expression that generates emotive structure. Perception divides the holomovement. The intentional field of implicate order. Nothing novel or interesting happens unless it is on the border between order and chaos. The infinitely dimensional perfect sphere of Truth's surface begins dancing. The fiddler is self referential noise. Real is an emergent property. What if the purpose of the universe is to harvest the meaningful information that lies in the region between simple truth and chaotic meaningless gibberish. The engine that connects the impossible to the possible.

[@kjekelle96]

Science means wanting to go to certainty, but suspending it as long as possible?

[@mediocrates3416]

The Gospel of Thomas is the *only* plausible gospel.

[@manfrea2956]

Vervaeke: you can't do it alone Me Fug

[@mediocrates3416]

Jordan Peterson's 'insight' led to disruption because he was shocked and afraid, maybe? Accept and incorporate insight toward the next. For me it was 'implication', same thing. But, it was the implication of conscious potential in all things: John's point about teleology compels me to consider the possibility of transient beings: a possibility given panqualism.

[@mediocrates3416]

There is a migrating electrical complex in the gut and the heart; why not the brain? Behaviourist perspectives might lead to one idea of flow in neural functioning, the flow of information maybe. I'm a functionalist so i'm wondering about the details: in the case of a lucid cogitating self, i'm seeing a driving function from the hypothalmus and cerebellum toward the cortex 30+ times a second eliciting from the cortex a transfer function that is cogitation and the source of our conscious experience. I think mystical experiences generally are what it feels like when the transfer function becomes the driver. I use "driving function" and "transfer function" in their technical sense.

[@mediocrates3416]

Smell also makes up part of the driving function. A subtle coupling via the extracellular electrotonic environment and dendritic spines is a thing, i think. I can even see a migrating electrotonic wave moving accross my field of view: i see something when i close my eyes and wait for persistent images to fade, i can see fronts of colour migating variously; i assume it's something related to electrotonic wave dynamics.