Ep 50 Cruising Sailboats: Amel Super Maramu vs Oyster 485 (Sailing Talisman)

We get a full tour of the Amel Super Maramu, a classic bluewater cruiser. This is the boat made famous by Brian and the rest of the crew on s/v Delos, and is much beloved worldwide. Of course we had to show off Talisman too.

[@jimlowe2328]

I know it’s three years old now, but that’s one of the best boat reviews I’ve seen. Have now subscribed, and will catch up with past reviews. Cheers Jim

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Jim. Appreciate the kind words.

[@waltherbudman144]

very respectful and full of good information.

[@NotBob223]

First off, great video and ignore the haters. It was (and should have been) obvious that you did this on the fly and hadn't had a chance to view the boat and get comfortable with the owners first. A rather long post follows so feel free to ignore but it might help your friend. I've crewed three different times on Amel Super Maramu's (two across two different boats on passages up and down the East Coast of the US into the Caribbean) so had a lot of time on them and can perhaps add a few tidbits that might not be obvious on a cursory tour. I've also had the opportunity to walk through a brand new Oyster 53 but never a 485. I admit to being gobsmacked when I first went on the 53 as the finish work was outstanding and it was bright and airy. Your 485 seems similar as the windows are above the main deck whereas the Amel is a bit darker (although the finish work on them is probably even better if that is possible). They both put high production boats to shame. I've watched a bunch of youtubes on Oysters and Amel's and I've noticed the Amel's seem to hold up better but yours was probably in the best shape I've seen for a 20+ year old boat - you have nothing to apologize about there!. A few things you mentioned, I'd like to comment on. On the Amel's, I've stayed up in the v-berth on all of my passages. We've had some fairly rough seas and I've never had a challenge (and I do get seasick). All of the berths have wooden lee rails that are mounted just under the storage lockers that keep you nicely wedged in the berth even in the most extreme seas. On my last passage, we were going uphill against the wind in the Gulf Stream in 25 knot winds (so short steep seas) and I never felt like I was getting launched out of the v-berth at all. I would be fine living up there on a long term basis although the pilot berth is the most sea kindly of all of them. You also mentioned keeping your dingy on the davits, I've seen dozens of Amel's now and most of them have davits or even a solar arch like Delos but I'd never keep a dingy back there during a passage. I remember looking back over my shoulder on one trip down the Gulf Stream and seeing a 20' wave chasing us and can't imagine having the dingy ripped off the back deck by it. Despite the davits/Arches on both boats, we put the dingy on the rear cabin top (lots of room for a 10-12' dingy) and mounted the outboard on the stern rail. The Amel's also have a rock solid 3/4" solid stainless steel lifeline system. That is just so reassuring in big seas in the (albeit unlikely) event that you need to get out of the cockpit in crappy weather. I've been up there to to take down a preventer and been washed over by a big green wave and knowing I was clipped on but also had both hands on the solid lifeline rail made all the difference in my comfort level). The fuel tank was on the left side of the engine room (or up against the right side of the pilot berth looking aft). I love that the engine room and fuel tanks are in their own separate watertight compartment keeping bilge, fuel and noises out of the living compartment. I've been on quite a few Amel's now (there were lots at Antigua and Martinique) as well as a few I've looked at in NY and Connecticut and I've never once smelled anything but home in any of them. Having had to change impellers on all three voyages for one reason or another (generator twice and engine once), I can't over emphasize how important that massive engine room is. I'd trade a few feet of the saloon in a second for it - which is exactly what Henri did with the Santorini when he used the same design as the Super Maramu and put it inside 48' (actually the Santorini came first). A few points of preference: - I love the huge nav station on your Oyster and the fact it faces longitudinally but have found the Amel's to work well and can see the instruments from the helm station while on watch. All of those panels that hold the instruments on the Amel's slide out as big drawers to get at all of the electronics. Massively great idea as it makes working on them so easy. In practice, I've found we spend about an hour a day at the station so it's an important part to get right... score one for both boats. - The natural light in the saloon... score one for the Oyster. Amel's saloon is deeper down into the boat which makes the port lights necessarily smaller. In counterpoint however, I've noticed that the curtains are often drawn to keep them cool in the tropics especially away from the AC power at the dock so it isn't a hinderance in practice except it doesn't show as well. - Your had a massive fridge compared to the bar fridge sized one on the Amel but you didn't show that there are two massive chest freezer/fridges (they can be configured to be either by setting the thermostat) under each of the saloon bench seats on the Amel. Not sure if the Oyster also also has chest freezer/fridges but I'm not fussy about the fact that your fridge opens into a tack (versus fore and aft). I like the sideways galley on the Amel in practice at sea as you can face fore/aft while working in rough seas and it is dead centre of the boat to minimize motion (helpful for my queazy tummy on the first few days of a passage). On my current boat, it's like yours and I have a harder time pushing myself off the counter (or holding on) while on a tack. It's a matter of preference though. - Your rear cabin seems to be quite a bit bigger than the Amel. I imagine it has lee cloths and I know Amel has gone that way with the 54 and 55. In the front cabin, you said the chain locker... not really correct as they are deep storage lockers (and the bow thruster) although you can open another water tight bulkhead (there are 7 different water tight compartments on an Amel Super Maramu) to get into the chain locker. There are also two massive lockers up front to store fenders, other lines, etc as well. The lockers on an Amel dwarf even those on the the Oyster 53 I've found. - You didn't tour above deck in the Amel (nor do as much on sailing on either) but I suspect that your Oyster will outpoint the Amel with your inner forestays. The standard Amel's do not have that (although a few have been subsequently modified to have them) and with the Genoa tracks out on the rubrails where you can't trip over them, it also means you can't sheet in as closely to the wind. The Amel has a brilliant system for winching the Genoa car but they really struggle to point much above 40 degrees apparent into the wind. Their downwind system with the twin poles and "ballooner" second Genoa makes them scream downwind though so you often see them racking up impressive daily mile averages on long passages because you can reef much later as you can do pretty much anything from the main cockpit (except rig a preventer on the main/mizzen, move the mizzen traveller - although I've seen simple owner modifications that allow you to do both those too - and rig the ballooner poles (which you do when you are going downwind so no biggie ). Anyway, you covered lots in only 40 minutes and did a great job with both boats. At the end of the day, I've pretty much decided to buy a Super Maramu but it was very close to a Oyster or Halberg-Rassey. I just think you get more boat for the money but then you have to live with the the slightly unconventional style (which I actually appreciate but many don't - they aren't called the Citroen of the seas for nothing!) The Discovery's are nice but way too much for my budget.

[@SailingTalisman]

Wow Brent, what a great comment. I wish I'd talked to you before I shot the video. You obviously know so much more about the Amels than I do. I'd just make a few points in reply. Our joinery is pretty good, but has taken some nicks and scratches over the years. We're the 4th owners and some of the previous ones could maybe have taken better care of the finishes. I have it in mind to do a full interior refinish at some later date, but for now we're just enjoying the sailing and not worrying too much about having a "show boat". Many of the Oysters are so pretty inside that the owners can't really enjoy them. As far as sailing performance goes, we can beat upwind at about 30 degrees and still maintain decent boat speed. Using the staysail adds a bit too. Her best point of sail is a beam reach to just aft, where she really flies (as much as a 38,000lb boat can). We see about 8-9 knots speed through water in winds between 20 and 30 knots. Below 15 knots we see performance drop off, but boy does she love a stiff breeze. The extra 5' of LOA on the Amel really adds to the stowage, and that's the one thing we wish we had more of. Thanks and hope to hear from you more.

[@NotBob223]

Yeah, that's quite a bit better than the Super Maramu upwind.. they were really designed to be in the trade wind belt going around the world (I was told that Maramu means tradewind in Moroccan) so are optimized for beam reaches or wind dead aft. Like yours, they just fly. I've seen as much as 14 knots surfing down big waves and averaged 9.5-10 knots for days. Even at lower wind speeds it still seems to move. I've seen as much as 7 knots with 10 knots off the stern beam. Going dead upwind isn't much fun anyway! :-). I hadn't realized that the Oyster was so heavy... the Super Maramu weighs in at about 35,000 lbs empty. Of course, add 1100 Litres of water, 600 litres of fuel, 1008 beers in the floor lockers and you'd be getting up there! New subscriber so you'll will likely hear more from me as I dig into your 50 videos!

[@isyewhiting6258]

P

[@TheGuit1]

The Amel is in really great condition. Well maintained and looked after!

[@SailingTalisman]

So true. I couldn't believe how pretty it was inside. And they didn't even have time to clean up for us. That's how it looks every day, from what I could tell.

[@mvdeehan]

Thanks for that helpful comparison. Both lovely practical boats. The engine access in the Amel is superb but your aft sleeping cabin is very comfortable.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Martin. The aft cabin is what sold the boat for us. When you live aboard the interior starts to become more important. I honestly don't think I've seen an owners cabin that I like more in any other boat our size, including the Oyster 53.

[@mvdeehan]

Hi Kevin loving your videos from the boat look over in Troon to the trip to France after purchase. Fantastic work you did there but the look on your face when you were about to be the owner was priceless. It was so nice to see Troon and I am happy you were treated so well.

[@idahobob180]

Noticed that motorboat rocking in harbor, if its rolling in berth hate to be on it at sea

[@Proost1]

Nicely timed...I was just researching the Super Maramu. The Super Maramu is a great boat with solid lineage! Boat shopping this weekend while I'm in San Diego.

[@romanogreminger2875]

Both boats look immaculate . Incredible how clean and looked after they are.I'd go for the Amel , simply for the safety features ,access to engine , the deck not being Teak , the way the deck is laid upon the hull, the keel, sail drive ,skeg hung rudder hard dodger and general lay out . I really like the Oyster too ,however the Teak deck just presents another mayor outlay and maintenance component. Love your videos .Very informative :) Thank you ;)

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Romano. Good reasons all. Our teak deck will need work in the next 5 years or so, but Oyster used/uses a thicker teak and bonds it down instead of screwing it down, and that's a big thing. We could just ignore our deck and it wouldn't hurt the boat. Like I predicted though, and good number of viewers (easily half or more) seem to prefer the Amel.

[@sk4256]

Well done. I really enjoyed that. Done to earth, factual, impartial. Great job! Thank you. Sk in the UK

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi SK. No worries. It was fun for us to meet that couple. They were so open and friendly. Wendy emails with her periodically, but they prefer being off the grid in small coves while we prefer tavernas and small harbors.

[@vincentjohnson1015]

Just goes to show that aged doesn’t mean obsolete,,,This ‘95 Amel is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Vincent. I've rarely seen a boat of the age of this Super Maramu that was in as good a shape. There wasn't a spot of dirt on the decks, and the interior joinery could have been new from the factory as far as I could tell. The owners just took really good care of her. We were lucky to have been able to take the tour (and film).

[@SaltborneHeathen]

Excellently done. I have Delos and the Super Maramu to thank for my interest in sailing, but an Oyster 485 would be my dream. Something about the profile and the aesthetics just grabs me

[@SailingTalisman]

We love the lines of the Oyster yachts just generally. There are none (other than the really early ones) that I've found unappealing. And the Oyster is faster and with a better pointing angle, at least ours is. What's not to love?

[@HuldraX.]

Wonderful comparison and well structured video! Thanks for that. We're in the market for the Amel's little brother, the Santorin. Your description of the Oyster has however given us pause. Oyster's back on the menu! Greetings from Norway from Pete & Denise! See you out there🤩

[@SailingTalisman]

They're both wonderful boats. Of course we went with the Oyster, but if I had to go with another brand I think Amel and Hallberg Rassy would be the two choices. It really comes down to how well they were cared for.

[@guyreigler3656]

Peter, i know you should look at our Oyster 56 just south of Barcelona we did a full refit two years ago. Hull # 2 [e-mail]

[@Barbreck1]

A very interesting tour. Thanks so much for giving your insights into these two fantastic vessels, I;ve learned a great deal from watching this and your earlier searches. I hope you'll keep on making these reviews for people like myself who are considering buying tinto the cruising lifestyle, you have a great way of showing those details many would overlook.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Jock. Since we've made our choice, I'm reluctant to keep shopping. However, that said, there are boats like the Super Maramus and perhaps others that cruisers gravitate to. If the opportunity arises we'll definitely do a tour. Having done this particular one I think I'd do it differently in the future. Specifically, I'd encourage the the owners to tell their own story more. Anyway, thanks so much.

[@Barbreck1]

@@SailingTalisman I have been musing over the Amel Meltem, a slightly smaller boat than the Super Maramu and probably more suitable for a couple. The Maramu seems a little big for a first boat. The Oyster certainly impressed me after your experienced eye was cast over it. She didn't look like much standing on that make-shift framing but you've shown what a gracefuil swan can be revealed from a first-glance "ugly duckling" if you know what to look for.

[@SailingTalisman]

Indeed. Amel made the Santorin too, which is a smaller 46' (also ketch rigged) version of the Super Maramu. I would say in defense of the Super Maramu that while it is 53' or so LOA, it's actually a bit narrower in beam aft. Many of the newer production boats feel huge inside based on pure volume aft. Anyway, lots of cruising couples sail the Super Maramu, and it's actually a lot easier to handle than many sloops due to smaller, more manageable sails. To each their own.

[@Barbreck1]

@@SailingTalisman I'll bear that in mind, Kevin. Thanks.

[@jw6246]

Hey Kevin and Wendy, I'm hooked on your videos. I use to have Islander 36 that we sailed on the Chesapeake, then moved to Florida and offshore sailing. My wife hated it. Ended up selling the boat and went to windsurfing. Now, at 73 the best I can do is watch your videos. They are great. Everything I wanted to do but never did. Keep up the great work. Tell Wendy she rocks as a blond. Jim

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Jim! You will have made Wendy's day, and I'll show her your comment tomorrow. To your point, we knew that if we waited and didn't do this now we never would. You have to live and see adventures, and that's what we're tying to do. We've both live the life of three people already, as I'm sure you have, so we count ourselves lucky.

[@jw6246]

Yea, hindsight is 20 20...

[@johnrichard6802]

I sailed an Oyster 485 from the BVI to Bermuda. Incredible boat that handled a lot of dicey weather. Very stable and easily averaged about 8.5 knots in steady 23 knot off the beam winds.

[@leejackson2969]

I’d take Talisman all day. She’s a beauty. Even on film you can tell those Oysters are built phenomenal.

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Lee. She's a wonderful boat, and probably the most fun thing we've ever owned. The best part is that we really do feel safe when we head offshore, and I'll take that any day.

[@JayPerrypersonal]

On our Amel Super Maramu from 1993 we have 2 independent autopilots, course computers etc. one is a rotary drive on the back of the wheel, the other is a ram in the rudder post

[@SailingTalisman]

I've heard the same from other Amel owners too. Always seemed something that would go by the wayside in such a cost conscious world. I mean it would have to figure into the overall price of the boat. On Talisman, I upgraded to the Raymarine Evolution ACU-400, EV-1 Sensor, and P70S control head, while keeping the original Type II linear drive. This setup fit neatly on the NMEA2000 backbone and has served us well so far.

[@larspardo4309]

excellent tour of thec Amel....thank you.

[@SailingTalisman]

You bet, Lars. Thanks for watching.

[@cliffcraig5594]

I love your commentary style and expertise, obviously done lots of research and present it very well. You also do an excellent in review other products and boats. Your Catalina 22 caught my attention. I started my sailing and racing on a C-22 #1351 in Sacramento, California at Folsom Lake. We had the first national race on the Berkeley Circle in San Francisco bay and bent my mast. I then raced and cruised on Leda a Lapworth 36 one of the early designed by Lapworth who was responsible for popular Cal series. She was built in 1955 by Chapman and Kalegean with mahogany plank, spruce mast and boom. She is teaching the third generation of the family. I look forward to more of your interesting videos. Fair Winds Cliff

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Cliff. That's so great to hear. We're scared of wooden boats, as most sane people are (maintenance). But boy can they be beautiful. Especially the Spirit of Tradition style. Thanks for finding us.

[@bcjams3786]

For open ocean cruising...the enclosed center cockpit wins for me....so its amel all the way..i love all the boats for different reasons..if i was just day cruising i would pick a stern steering boat but for long passages in 30 foot seas its amel all the way.

[@SailingTalisman]

Good choice. It's hard to go wrong with any of the Amels, although the newer versions are getting sizable pilothouses than don't appeal to me aesthetically. Great open ocean boats though to be sure.

[@jimmerriman6920]

Just what I've been waiting for! Thanks Kevin and Wendy! You picked a great boat to compare against yours! I love both of them! Center cockpit yachts offer one other thing that hasn't been mentioned. Personal safety! Out in the high seas, when you are sailing through bad storms and really nasty, heavy seas, center consoles offer more protection and personal security. Everyone on a boat should be clipped in during those type of conditions, but never the less, I still like center consoles, preferably with hard dodgers. Excellent contrast of boats, but both are super nice, and very capable blue water sailing yachts. Thanks for a great video.

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Jim. The Hallberg Rassys have hard dodgers as do some of the Moodys (and the Amel, obviously). We find the big windows up front (on the Oyster) with the eyebrow above deflects almost all green water in heavy seas. We have had waves come up and over our spray hood and when that happens you know seas are big. Wendy is totally freaked by the new designs that have no rails or anything behind the helms. These race-inspired designs look like they're just calling out to have you washed out the back. I know getting water off the boat is important, but not at the risk of life safety.

[@jimmerriman6920]

@@SailingTalisman Kevin, did I ever tell you that a friend of mine had a incident just as you described above? They were in a Newport to Bemuda race, or NYYC to Bermuda race, and the helmsman was washed overboard at night. In the morning, there was no one at the helm, auto-pilot was steering the boat, and he was never found. This was quite a long time ago, maybe 45 years ago. It really shock them all up, as the lost sailor was a family friend.

[@SailingTalisman]

@@jimmerriman6920 Hi Jim. It happened earlier this year while we were sailing from St Thomas to Bermuda. Once in Bermuda we leaned that a husband had come on deck for his watch to find his wife gone. As you describe, autopilot steering the boat and nobody except him aboard. Sad and mostly avoidable. Our center cockpit design helps you feel pretty safe, but we still have a rule that no one leaves the cockpit (at any time) without someone else supervising. Tethering in while in the cockpit is still personal preference, but we encourage it at night.

[@jimmerriman6920]

@@SailingTalisman Sad indeed. Yep, Center cockpits are safer in general, and yes again, Everyone should be tethered in at night, even in the cockpit. Rogue waves are out there, and can blind side any yacht... Better to be smart, than sorry...

[@sailingyoumeandjosapea6770]

You’re boat stacks up well considering it’s a little smaller, your bedroom looks more like a Bedroom ! However my opinion is the amel has a birth you can lie in different angles, and the helm position is better , plus the engine room layout is a big thing and all them water tight bulk heads , and electric winches. I could go on I reckon, But you’re right about the rigging being a big spend not to mention more sails. I’m glad you made this video 👍

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Stephen. As I predicted, about half or more of the viewers prefer the Amel and good for them. Each owner has to love the boat they buy, and I'm so glad the market provides options. The big thing for us was to stay shy of 50'. This has paid off big time here in the Med where marinas are so tight. 53' probably would have worked, but 56' or more means anchoring out or finding a bigger marina.

[@stevesvids2960]

Excellent comparative video of two great cruising yachts...welldone!!!

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Steve. People are seeming to like this one.

[@laurentfroggy6631]

Great insight and review on two beautiful boats. Many thanks and best from HKG

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks LF.

[@AdventuresOnBoatscom]

Thanks for the detailed comparison. -johnny

[@jimmilligan5407]

Another great video! Add the Hylas 49 to your list of potential showings.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Jim. We tried hard to view a Hylas 49 in Rhode Island when we were shopping and the broker absolutely refused to make himself available to do the showing. It became ridiculous eventually and we gave up. A great boat, and one that you will almost never find outside the US and Caribbean.

[@erickamekonapeper4007]

I recommend you get canvas bags for your Halliards so you can protect them from uv. You invested lots in those you will prolong life by year’s just by getting them out of uv. God Bless you and the nice Family you met! ❤️😌🖖🏼🇺🇸

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Eric. Good advice. Ours are in plastic bags at the moment as Talisman is hauled in Antigua. And as you say, so important to protect as best you can. Thanks so much for being with us.

[@jamesouterbridge6016]

Thank your sir, well put together and presented. At the end the Amel always wins the day.. My best James

[@SailingTalisman]

Glad to hear it James. It's a great boat.

[@mademir1]

Just wanted to say how much I enjoy watching your insightful videos... Great quality content . Looking forward to new episodes. A big thank you. 😃 Mehmet

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Gaye. Nice to have you.

[@davidkennedy3050]

Kevin, I suspect you are one of those guys who could spend an entire day at the marina looking at sailboats. I can never find enough time. I love them all, blue water cruisers, small keelboats, sleek volvo ocean racers.

[@SailingTalisman]

Indeed. You are correct. They are all beautiful, and it's the reason I never dis other boats when I see them in the marinas. Each boat speaks to a different person and I love having choice in the marketplace. The production boats were not for us, but they are the best choice for so many people, and this is why they are so popular.

[@lourensjoubert8652]

That is a great looking Amel and really well looked after! Nice comments during the video and well done

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks. It was a nice boat that was extremely well taken care of.

[@roypeace3386]

Enjoyed your video, thanks, looking forward to seeing your next one and following u on your travels.

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Roy!

[@muskietime]

Absolutely Outstanding reviews. Thank you.

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks so much!

[@KarenCooley]

What a great video! Loved the comparison. Looks like your German friends now have their boat for sale. I just saw it on YachtWorld not minutes after watching this video. :)

[@SailingTalisman]

Wow. Thanks for being with us Karen. Whoever gets that boat is going to have the best Super Maramu out there, at least in terms of being kept up. I would take a boat with a factory finish level interior and some mechanical problems over the reverse, although I doubt that boat has anything at all wrong on the mechanical side either. They were both on top of every potential issue.

[@brantbrooks7337]

@@SailingTalisman germans maintain thier stuff

[@roryglobalactivites4054]

What a lovely couple Thank you so much for sharing

[@SailingTalisman]

They were awesome. We wish we'd kept their contact info, but believe they were close to selling the boat.

[@joedonnelly9487]

Excellent all through and some great tips to maintain while cruising

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Joe!

[@brokerhc]

I must say that I love both boats. I like the center cockpit layout more than the aft twin steering stations on boats like the Benetau because you have better protection from the elements if you need it. I love the ketch rigging because it gives you lots of sailing alternatives. The pilot station in the Amel is great for long passages and it is well protected but I prefer to have the capability of going open like in the Oyster, when the weather is great. The modern Amel has a sliding roof panel that extends to the stern but the pilot area remains too "enclosed". Instead of the new rounded windshield I would make it square with the capability of lowering forward the half section in front of the helm. I would also make the hatch in the roof bigger. But like you said, if I go to Amel with these ideas they would tell me to go and buy a Benetau or go and convert the Oyster into a ketch.

[@SailingTalisman]

So true. I also find the new Amels to be a bit too bulky topsides, with the big pilothouse concept that appears taken from catamaran design. We spent quite a bit of time on an Amel 55 recently, and while the interior is spacious and slick in a newly built sort of way, I find the older Super Maramus to be so beautiful. The 55 had a center glass section of the windscreen that was removable, but it didn't seem that easy to do. The real difference between center and aft cockpit is that the center cockpit gives you the big aft stateroom that in the aft cockpit designs become small quarterberths. Of course, protection from weather is also a factor, but it was the living arrangements below that sold us.

[@europachef]

@@SailingTalisman I have to be honest, the new Amel 55 and 50 are Amel in name only. They've moved away from Henri Amels philosophy and adopted a more "Euro barge" approach that I personally do not find attractive. The 55 and 50 reminds me of hard plastic toys, and the interior is not nautical (not too me anyway) but reminds me more of a doctors office or some fancy apartment, also, the designer must have used a piece of Lego and a ruler because everything inside the boat are straight lines. The old Super Maramu and the 54 are absolutely beautiful inside, you have round organic nautical shapes inside, just the "windows" alone are nice too look at. Also, I would argue that the Super Maramu and the 54 are _better_ boats, higher quality. You can kind of see that just by looking at them. Sure, the knew 55 and 50 might heel a bit less because of the hull shape and be a bit more spacious inside but they are NOT as stable. I also find the interior of both the 55 and 50 very cold and sterile, no warmth, could be because of all those straight lines everywhere. As for your Oyster the 485 is without a doubt the most beautiful Oyster ever made, her lines are just pure art. I hope you are happy with her, she is very easy on the eye. Lastly, really like your videos, fair winds and following seas.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Johan. Interesting thoughts. I too agree agree with much of what you say. We spent quite a bit of time hanging out on an Amel 55 we were cruising with this summer, but I'm very reluctant to dis on the boat. I believe Amel is responding to customer demand in their own way. Like previous versions, they are heavy in displacement/length but lighter in ballast/displacement. Still above average in capsize screening value and motion comfort, so all-in-all pretty impressive. The 55 in particular has a very fast hull speed at 11.41 knots (to the Super Maramu at 9.88) and I believe this to come as a result of advances in computer modeling for hull speed. As for the angular interior joinery, I agree that it has a bit of a sterile feel. As as with Amels past, you don't get a whole lot of choices in how it's done. One of the reasons I fell in love with the Oyster 485 (and Discovery 55 too) was the curved interior parts, of which there are more than you can count. Putting curves in wood, and especially teak, which is a very hard wood, is very difficult and time consuming. It's why we like the Oyster 56 over the other newer boats in the line. Everyone's going to square corners and rectangular furniture to contain costs. I do like the engineered flooring and engineered teak decks topsides for their wear resistance.

[@europachef]

@@SailingTalisman I haven't spent as much time as you have on the 55, clearly it's faster than the Super Maramu and the Amel 54, I'm with you on the Oysters I also like the older models more, both in terms of internal design and external. As for the engineering teak decks on the Amel those do not look that appealing but it's a very clever solution for sure.

[@malcolmbullock4297]

We cruise and live on a Beneteau 57. She is centre cockpit and has a bulkhead wheel like the Amel. Our galley is in its own three sided room which is awesome at sea. If the video didnt point it out do not under estimate the bulkhead steering position. We never get wet sat there abd and therefore don't need to get dressed in wet weather gear. Thats huge on a passage. Also because (on a B57) the solid screen is, sealed you can put paper or electronics dowb in rough seas knowing it wont get wet.

[@26snoopy82]

Make more videos like this to compare other sailboats with other ones. Great video.

[@SailingTalisman]

We'll keep a lookout. Thanks for watching.

[@guyreigler3656]

Very nice, we have a Oyster 56 hull#2 in pristine condition the most unusual part is the carbon fiber mast. Stay safe!

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Guy. Wow. If we were to get another Oyster it would most likely be a 56. I love that boat. The 575s and 565s are sweet as well. but too pricey for us at the moment. But who knows. They'll come down over time.

[@davidhenson8511]

Hi Kevin like you I love the center cockpit boats and one brand you did mention Discovery are remarkable not only for their build quality but also for the raised saloon and navigation station which can be a good place on night watch. I think you would agree. All that said the Oyster brand do build a very strong good quality boat and I do like yours Kevin you and Wendy keep it very nice. As you said choice of boat is a very personal thing and for me I would choose the Discovery 55 all day long and because it has been in production now for so long you are now starting to see used boats coming through to the market place. anyhow keep up the good work on the videos I love them and the idea to check out other boats is great. :-)

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks David. The Discovery 55 is one of my favorites but they were well out of our price range when we were shopping. We seen them around and I'm always noticing that they look so much like an Oyster. If you put the Oyster badge on one nobody would ever question it. We also wanted to stay below 50' LOA, which was one reason we never considered the Amel more seriously. You have to draw the line somewhere or you'll just go bigger. I didn't get around to mentioning it but that extra 5' is where all the stowage and headroom comes from on the Super Maramu..

[@davidhenson8511]

Your right you need to stay in budget and yes they are very similar to the Oyster which by the way has been a favorite of mine for many years. :-)

[@gps831coast]

One of the best features of Amel is the window to check your propeller. It is under the aft cabin bed. You can check your prop without diving in the water. It is a little window through the hull. Simple, but can make things much less complicated. Plus you can see the prop spinning while underway.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hmmm. Not sure I'd want that feature.

[@Ludenils]

Been watching you for a while now. Looking forward to see more videos from you, and follow you on your travels :) + 1 subscriber :) Fair winds - Nils

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Nils! Great to hear from you.

[@thearchibaldtuttle]

Amel is just a wonderful boat! There should actually be a Delos edition of the Amel Super Maramu. It would include a distillery, a kombucha jug and a video editing system integrated into the chart plotter. The Oyster is great too and it looks roomier to me compared to the Amel.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Archibald. Wendy and I are cracking up reading your comment. Wendy observes that while the Super Maramu is 5' longer, the 485 seems to have more "personal space" as she puts it. I wish we had more dedicated stowage/lockers for clothes and especially foul weather gear. As we say in real estate development, the solution to every design problem is just make the home bigger.

[@superformOG]

good vid Kev, the walk through of both boats was on point. it might also be an idea to talk about there underwater/sailing differences.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi SF. I think speed/performance would be similar. Neither is particularly great in light winds due to their heavy displacement, but we get 9 knots out of Talisman pretty regularly with 18-22 knots wind speed on the beam or early quarter. These boats just won't plane up like the lightweight production boats will. Longer waterline = speed, and we met a guy in Palma de Mallorca with a Swan 100 that was something else. Recent build and he said 22-24 knots boat speed was typical. It was an insane looking boat.

[@markgotham5372]

Kevin & Wendy...Kinda surprised you didn't invite the other couple over to you for wine, cheese and show your's off with their thoughts. Watching Delos for years, you get used to it and very comfortable, (like that's the way it's supposed to be....??). Personaly, I Love your Oyster, and the layout is Great. Good Vid overall, Thank You........S.F., Ca,.... ;-)

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Mark. I ended up cutting the extended discussion with them about cruising generally because it would have added 15 minutes to the vid. Anyway, we did go to dinner with them and next day Wendy spent several hours with her over coffee using her iPad/Navionics to choose ports and marinas that they had been to and liked (throughout Italy, Greece and Croatia).

[@robertlee8042]

The most intelligent analysis I’ve watched although would mind more about the technicals like keel and rudder and aspect ratios Etc.

[@SailingTalisman]

We have all that, but I was worried about coming off as too focused on the numbers. Talisman is a heavier displacement bluewater specific cruising boat designed by Homan and Pye. She draws 2.4 meters by way of a medium fin keel with lead keel bulb and a skeg hung rudder. As part of the technical papers we got from Oyster, the AVS is stated (by Homan and Pye) to be 136 degrees, which is amazing, really. Boat data for almost all boats can be found on boatdata.com.

[@clayfarnet970]

Great comparison and well done. Fair winds!

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Clay.

[@tomshedd3067]

When doing these comparisons it might be nice to see below waterline pictures or drawings and comment on hull construction

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Tom. A good source for what you're asking for is sailboatdata.com. To your point, the main reason I don't drill down too deeply on boat design in the video series is that I'm operating as a guest of the owners. The second you start talking about design parameters you immediately have to address the trade-offs that are being made, and as you probably know in boat design everything is a trade-off. You get something with one hand while the other takes it away. And it's so easy to hurt the feelings of the owners, who might not agree with your assessment. But what does happen is a lot is people contacting me about specific boats and my "off the record" opinions. These are obviously worth what they cost, but it's something I spend a fair amount of time on. Thanks so much for watching.

[@epicoverfifty9745]

Love the Amel the 55 and 64 are by far my favourite blue water cruising boats.

[@SailingTalisman]

You could do worse.

[@vailclewley9025]

Gardner engines did cease production , but i use their rebuild facility Walshes that are in the old Gardner buildings so spares are available .

[@steveleslie9022]

Nice Vid...because of the Delos series it is hard for any boat to stack up to it but you have a very nice boat as well...you should be proud.

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks for the kind words Steve.

[@franklincrone6624]

Amel is hands down a better boat by design and endurance. Drawback is, as stated, higher cost of maintaining rigging, sails etc., and also dockage, mooring, storage, hauling, lifting. I personally would always look for faux teak in todays manufacturing, try pricing new teak decking and you will not be happy in anyway. As always for most individuals, ongoing cost has to be considered; so the adage is get the smallest boat that you are comfortable with and your angst will be a lot less.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Franklin. Funny that you should mention teak decks. Given the rules surrounding the virus, we've had a lot of time on ours hands (unfortuanately, at anchor with not enough bandwidth to post new videos though). But since time is available I've been pulling selected caulk out of our 25 year old teak decks. Oyster, as is their way, speced overly thick teak (10-12mm depending on year of mfr), as they still do. After all this time the grooves are averaging 3-4mm deep! Oyster and Amel are two totally different brands. Amel is Amel. There's nothing really like it out there. Oyster, by contrast, focuses on high net worth individuals and it's all about getting a bulletproof bluewater boat with heavy/strong build quality and top of the line kit. Comfort is a main focal point. Both brands surprisingly end up near the same place in many ways if you look past the presentation. In talking to Amel owners the biggest complaint I hear is the number of custom Amel fabricated parts, mostly having to do with furlers, prop shafts, bow thrusters, and the more minor systems. Unlike Oyster, Amel isn't known for it's customer service and owners are often on their own to get old parts custom fabricated since Amel no longer makes or stocks the parts. I'd take either brand but of course we're happily wedded to Oyster.

[@vailclewley9025]

Reference Elley Grey , Jib ,stay sail ,and 1000 sq ft square sail are electric , gaffs are alloy so very light , and a real engine room , with 2/10 kva generators and a beautiful Gardner 6LXBM main engine even a jaccusi under the after deck for five people !

[@timkiwi]

very good review. i like the Amel but the oyster looked better inside. that may just be your finishing touches. anyway you would be happy with either.

[@SailingTalisman]

Indeed.

[@brentonpocock9500]

Love watching all of your videos as you are very informative pointing out both pros and cons from your expansive knowledge. Have now subscribe enjoying the learning curve looking forward to further travels but more so the educational side of both life on board with your experiences of maintenance, upkeep on board and the constant work e.g. using the vinegar to keep the scaling down in the manual toilets. These small tidbits albeit basic and probably common knowledge to the experienced are like diamonds to the novice. Thank you again.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Brenton. It's a work in progress. There are so many things I wish I'd known when we started. And like you say, they're diamonds. We're kind of trying to catch up with our video footage, and the next month or so will mostly be destinations. However, come late April and early May we have a second round of major maintenance on the way. Should be good video.

[@bill4nier]

Excellent video and valid points, Kevin. Any thoughts on the Southerly swing keel? Thanks for sharing. 😊⛵⛵⛵⛵⛵😊👍👍👍👍👍

[@SailingTalisman]

Our Catalina was a swing keel. The main thing is to keep an eye on maintenance. If the lifting cable breaks, the keel will swing free and smash through whatever structure is nearby, leading to the boat sinking immediately. Southerly may have solved this problem through hydraulics or something, but be aware.

[@budawang77]

Excellent comparison Kevin. They're both wonderful yachts and you must be very proud of your Oyster. I would be a little bit worried about having teak decks, although a bit less so if they were glued rather than screwed down. On the other hand, operating costs will be higher on the Amel. My wife wants great visibility and light inside so that's pointing me towards deck or pilot saloons or catamarans of course.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Ben. People ask about the teak decks a lot, and the answer as far as Oyster is concerned is that if you can't afford the teak decks then you can't afford an Oyster. Ours need a bit of work but overall they're in good shape. Oyster used very thick teak in the old days (and still do). This is not the case these days with newer builders as teak is becoming prohibitively expensive. NEVER, EVER use a power washer on teak. It digs out the softer pulpwood between the rings and takes years off the life of the deck.If we have to replace, we'll probably go with Flexiteak, which is a synthetic teak that looks for all the world like real teak. The viability inside Talisman is fantastic, and we have steered the boat in foul weather for hours while standing looking through the windows. We have a fully redundant chartplotter at the nav station, and this is something that is advised greatly.

[@anbus1018]

Nice video..... For value comparison I give the maramu the thumbs up.....There's just so many things I love about this Sail Boat.... Cockpit/Helm for 1... Looks so safe and comfortable especially for night passages...... Although after watching SV Delos's KZbin channel for a while now..... The maintenance on the Super Maramu is quite a lot to deal with..... I mean certain maintenance issues that are repetitious that shouldn't have to be is what I'm trying to say ...... With that being said, The Maramu is a very fast and safe, Comfortable Blue Water World Class Cruiser. Your Oyster is also very beautiful. Thank you..... Signed new Subscriber.

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Anbus. Yes, about half the viewers preferred the Super Maramu. And they can be had for a reasonable price as there are so many out there. We just met a guy on the dock next to us in Preveza, Greece who had picked one up for 139,000 Euros, and it was in very good condition. The systems are at once unique and easily found on the online market. It depends on which ones they are. Things like watermakers, various non-Amel built hardware like winches and electronics can be swapped out, and the basic boat is so stout that failures are almost unheard of (same with Oyster). Mostly, it's just very hard work to refit and upgrade them. But if you're going to put money into a boat you could do worse than a Super Maramu.

[@nvrmor023]

Not sure if its for dramatic effect to make videos interesting, but poor delos never seems to be cared for. All the problems are from lack of doing simple maintenance on regular schedules. I know she gets used a lot by many peoples but she is in rough shape. You know the saying rode hard and put away wet? Poor delos is just rode hard nonstop. I hope this winter they either stop for a while and do a total refit or sell her to someone who will.

[@richard9316]

Never been on an oyster but have been on a maramu, my dream boat....

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Richard. The Amels are great boats. You could do worse for sure.

[@korgeth]

I like them both, very much so. I think I like the Amel just a little bit more, because of Mr. Amel's design philosophy. I would have to spend some time on each to make my final decision though.

[@SailingTalisman]

Yep. It's a great boat. The slightly bigger size really makes room for the stuff he wanted to include.

[@captainsview3303]

Agree with you completely Kevin. We have a Bristol 43 CC. We also have spent a good amount of time on production boats. The point made by SV Ampavidus is correct that many of the production boats are capable and do go around the world. Also very correct that they will beat you to death, especially if you have windward work to do (just ask my wife after we delivered a Hunter 49 from Mexico to Florida. The whole way all I heard was I wish we were on out boat)). I disagree about their speed advantage. Recently crewed on a Little Harbor in the Carib 1500. We beat all of the fast production boats of the same size range. Also know from our boat that we can easily keep up with production boats of our size. Looking forward to your next video.

[@SailingTalisman]

The Oyster 485 will do 7 knots all day, 8 knots most of time and 9 knots occasionally. This will get us where we need to go in respectable fashion. Light wind sailing is where the production boats shine, but rough weather way offshore is where they get punished. You can do it, there's no doubt, and sailing skill counts for a lot. That's why I never disparage the production boats. Yes, keels have been lost (as has at least one Oyster), but in each case the design software has been updated. We realize that doesn't help the existing owners of the older boats but it's a work in progress as far as documenting the properties of high tech composite materials.

[@steveburton5825]

Great review but I did notice a couple of (relatively unimportant) inaccuracies on your review of the Super Maramu: 1) The standard autopilot was a chain drive off the wheel as you point out but most Super Maramu's have a second autopilot drive which is mounted directly to the rudder post (I'd be surprised if they didn't have it as well). The idea is that you use the rudder post autopilot through the day and the wheel based one at night to reduce noise in the aft cabin - since heat is the enemy of these, it means that they see half the wear on the a/p plus it builds in some much needed redundancy on such a critical system - as most cruising boats spend most of their time on A/P. 2) It wasn't clear but above the batteries, is a similar pilot berth to yours. Very comfortable at sea as it is near the pitch/yaw axis of the boat (least motion). When lying in it, the hatch into the cockpit allows you to see the helm instruments so it's a great spot for being on/off watch. 3) The batteries on the Super Maramu are 12V in series vs the 6 volt you mentioned. He had put in 8 12V batteries in a 4x2 configuration (plus the one 12V for starting the engine & generator). I didn't check his amperages but I'm guessing his house capacity is around 480-600Amps at 24V as that's pretty typical for an early Super Maramu. Later ones had space for 2 more batteries. 4) The tiles on the countertop aren't made of linoleum but are real ceramic. Later SM's have Corian countertops (but most of those come with the blue floors like Delos so it's a coin toss). 5) While the wires/cables are generally free over the access points, they are in conduit between them. This makes it really easy to pull cables as each run is typically less than 8' and has only one bend. You really hit on the high points and advantages/disadvantages of both boats and did a great job of differentiating between them and between them and high volume standard charter/weekend type boats (and the reasons why). I'd love to see more of these. Especially from a maintainability/ease of upgrading standpoint. Like you, I think the real competition in this sector is Amel/Oyster/Halberg-Rassy.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Steve. Wow! Great information there, and I do apologize for the errors. Now the one question I would have is that 4x2 12v batteries in series parallel would equal 48 volts. Do they have a dropper of some sort to bring these down or is it wire 12*2 series, then 4 sets parallel? I'd assume the latter. We have an Amel 54 next door here in Gucek, Turkey and want so badly to do a tour with the owner, but we haven't seen them around to introduce ourselves.

[@steveburton5825]

@@SailingTalisman Hey, not a problem.. you were on a mean streak there and you got 99% of it perfect. Just didn't want people getting the wrong idea on some of it. What I meant by 4x2 was two 12V batteries in series to provide 24V times 4 in parallel to quadruple the amps. For example, if the batteries were 150A, 12V, then you'd have 4 banks of 24V at 150A each in parallel to make a combined total of 600A at 24V. The 54 is a very sweet boat and has quite a few improvements over the Super Maramu (but also a few detractions unfortunately). The improvements are a much more roomy rear cabin like your Oyster with a similar free floating bed (on a hydraulic lift so you can lift it to get at the rudder/stern autopilot plus a lot of extra storage), a forward facing nav station, easy chairs across from the settee, much better heads with separate showers in the aft. A dedicated double cabin up front to one side with twin bunks in the companionway on the other side plus a dryer as well as the washer (all up front now), more lighting in the boat so not quite as dark as a Super Maramu. On the negative side, the Volvo D3-110 they used in it had to be a common rail computer controlled engine due to the emissions regulations at the time and Volvo hasn't done a good job of supporting them. You need special tools and computers which many Volvo mechanics don't have outside of the Med so many Amel 54 owners have re-engined with less complex Yanmars. Amel even switched later in the stream to the much more expensive Steyr 140 which is a beautiful engine. The furlers were also an issue for them and Bamar issued some credits for early owners to upgrade but it's an expensive endeavour. That said, if my budget allowed it, I'd go with a Amel 54 as it's a wee bit faster (but also a wee bit less comfortable in big seas) and has about 20% more interior volume for a boat that is only 10" longer.

[@mikes2294]

Excellent video, plethora of information. Good stuff, thank you.

[@SailingTalisman]

Great. Happy you liked it.

[@paulswan1965]

Thank you so much, Kevin, that was, I don't have a word for it, but maybe well done, informative, not done as a salesperson, you get my drift & I subscribed. personally, I like a Swan, no pund intended. Cheers

[@SailingTalisman]

Swans rock, Paul. They are the boats we all lusted after when I was growing up, and we have a video way back in the series where we went to see a Swan 46 in San Francisco. We passed on that boat as it was in bad shape and the interior felt cramped. The Swan 46 and 48 are that way. The new Swans are something else entirely. True thoroughbreds.

[@timk4944]

Kevin , interesting video. The owners of the Amel were very gracious. It appears you may have over talked the skipper too often and that he might of had more interesting information to contribute. I know you are very well versed in the the different cruising yachts out there but I felt that maybe you could have edited your comments in later if needed. You are very knowledgeable but we could all learn more from other people if we listen a little more. It seemed like you picked his boat apart a little pointing out the dated counter tops, the flawed mirrors and the analog gauges. Maybe its just me but that was how it came across. I apologize if I sound too critical as I love your videos in general and no, the thumb down was not from me.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Tim. My apologies. You are correct in retrospect. I'm always conscious of time, and actually edited out some of what the owner said as he was struggling to explain it in English. They were both so gracious and their boat was so well maintained. I have to admit to a certain amount of jealousy. Next time I tour a boat I'll listen more and talk less ... always a good policy. Thanks for watching.

[@timk4944]

Hi, great response, I have the luxury of time to sit back in my armchair and over analyze I suppose. As most of us know, most boats are a compromise but where one boat may fall short in some aspect, it may excel in another. Your Oyster is a beautiful vessel but I suppose it is human nature to compare and covet. All the best!

[@hellohellohello6847]

Tim K I agree

[@ruudhaakwegmann298]

Valid comments. Would like to add that if you introduce yourself first and maybe ask if you could come back in say an hour, so they feel more comfortable to show their home to you it would result in a better video. Might even, if you’re serious about these comparisons, invite them over to your boat and have a sit down and compare notes.

[@dennisfromoz6436]

Thanks for teasing...LOL Did so enjoy your coverage of the two yachts....but in my next life...too long in the tooth nowadays...Happy 2022.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Dennis. You'll get another go at it I'd suspect. Tough to remember what you thought would be cool in a previous life though.

[@orwellknew9112]

I love all the wood. I would not like the new boats. This and the other one before this have gorgeous interiors. The thing is they are very different than any landslide interiors. They are so inspiring and unique. You know you’re on a real nautical vessel. I would feel like I was on an adventure without leaving the dock. Both are beautiful boats.

[@SailingTalisman]

I think the newer boats use a lot of white panels to try to brighten up the interior, which translates to a greater feeling of space. And the builders are hiring high-end interior designers that can't just spec a wood interior (or they won't be doing their job). The end result looks like a New York or Paris luxury hotel room. But I suspect that if you wanted a wood-centered Oyster you could get it just by asking (and paying). As for Amel, they have a reputation for rarely entertaining client requests for changes to their set design. Regardless of all that, I'm with you, and love the wood interiors.

[@1corinthians15.1-4kjv]

There is a lot of modern boats, that use a lot of wood too, or you could even build fully to personal preferences. That is for instance possible with Sirius and X-Yachts, that I know of. It is not fair to compare this with a production boat, because they cost easily half of, what an Amel cost or less! Of course they can not be build to the same standard then. All the Swedish boat yards also still pride themselves in incredible wood work, but then then also cost three times the price for same size boat compared to equivalent Beneteau or Bavaria boat, for instance. If you like wood work, but want to see a very different take on the exterior, but still a blue water capable boat, then look up Allures; build in high grade marine aluminium at the same yard as Garcia, but they make so beautiful interiors. I don't like the modern Amels, which has caved to popular request and for instance makes island berths in all cabins, which is just not a good choice in a blue water boat, but this Super Maramu and the later 54 exactly, to me at least, is the pinnacle of Amel design. The 54 really just have some more modern equipment and design and a couple of feet more length, but the overall design is the same, for instance with those passway berths.

[@foreversingle1975]

Great review my heart is set on an amel.

[@SailingTalisman]

They're great boats!

[@larsbee]

a german couple... what a messy boat indeed ... julia is like my mother who tells me the house is a mess when most people consider it spotless....🤣

[@SailingTalisman]

Yes, it was quite impressive. It's so hard to keep a boat spotless like that.

[@adrianthorpe8005]

Called old school

[@williamstreet4304]

I recently spent 10 days on an Oyster 485 in the tropics. I was amazed that you didn't mention one of the fantastic features of Oyster deck saloons. The saloon is so bright and airy because the two outboard forward windows open. Two huge open hatches facing forward bring so much air into the boat. I'm looking at Oyster, Amel, and Nautor Swan boats from the 1990's. From a price point, the Amel boats are much more affordable. I think this is due to the large number of boats built. Oyster built less than 40 485's while Amel built about 230 Super Maramu's - and that doesn't include the Super Maramu 2000's.

[@SailingTalisman]

Yes, I suppose we overlook the obvious sometimes. And I write here as I sit in the airy salon with the windows open and a cool breeze coming in off the island of Mustique, in the Caribbean (as you point out). The Amel Super Marimu has always been a great value, plus it's 53' or 54', I forget which, but more boat for the money. Of course it's always a matter of personal choice, and with the ketch rig you have more parts to maintain, but whatever. You'll make do. I think our channel, and James from Sailing Zingaro, have sold all the 485's as they've come up for sale.

[@williamstreet4304]

@@SailingTalisman I was on Zingaro recently. What a great boat and owner. But I cannot forgive the 2 of you running the price of a 485 out of my reach.

[@tomhermens7698]

Most people don't want a ketch rig as that gives more maintenance and thus cost. Hence the price is lower.

[@williamstreet4304]

@@tomhermens7698 Tom you may be right. But I think people avoid ketch rigs because they don't understand how to sail them or don't understand the benefits. In heavy air, the ketch provides more flexibility to depower the sail plan while maintaining balance. It also provides smaller sails that are easier to manage for those of us who are getting a bit older.

[@tomhermens7698]

@williamstreet4304 totally agree. Personally I prefer a sloop from a maintenance and resale point of view.

[@jonunya3128]

the engine room on that amel is awesome

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Jo. It was a beautiful boat all around.

[@badranafianbinabubakar8341]

Great stuff

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks much!

[@oceanriccard]

Nice review, thank you.

[@SailingTalisman]

You bet.

[@SailingTalisman]

You bet.

[@thomastuorto9929]

Great vid. The Hylas 46 would be another great vid comparison to your boat.

[@SailingTalisman]

We tried to look at a Hylas 46 prior to buying Talisman, but the salesman was an idiot. The boat had been repossessed and was sitting on the hard with the mast down and the guy couldn't be bothered to show the boat. He kept telling me that people were trying to "steal it", ie. offers were too low. He made every effort to not to get it sold.

[@davidmambrose4210]

@@SailingTalisman some boat brokers are like green shoe used car salesmen

[@bill4nier]

Excellent video and points of view, Kevin. Any thoughts on a Southerly swing keel? Thanks for sharing. 😊⛵⛵⛵⛵⛵⛵😊👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@davidmambrose4210]

great video, good comments

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks David! Thanks for watching.

[@johnnybarbar7435]

Very surprised that the Amel owners did not have a shore emergency 2 minutes after you stepped on board.

[@fatpenguin1360]

Great video. I’m planning to sell my house and buy a 50-70 foot cruiser to sail/live on permanently (Caribbean and trans Atlantic). I’m considering primarily Swan and Oyster, but keeping an open mind to all purpose built yachts. Thank you so much for videos like this one. +1 Subscriber 😉

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi FP. Pay close attention to how hard it is to get into marinas with boats bigger than 50'. Our boat draws 2.4 meters and today on the southern Italian coast only one marina out of seven could handle our draft. The other six were fishing ports that could take 40' boats with 2' meters or less, maybe, but even that would have been sketchy. So many people are looking at catamarans and these are even worse, as the marinas charge them for two slips per night.

[@realulli]

Excellent point. So, longer boats run into issues not because of their length but because of their draft. What's you opinion about swing-keel boats, like the Southerly boats? (Distant Shores is a good example) They should be able to get into just about anything, since they are built to sit on the bottom at low tides. I think I've seen video of some folks actually walking ashore from their boat while at a mooring buoy... ;-)

[@thearchibaldtuttle]

50-70 foot is yuuuugge! How many deck hands do you have? Check Distant Shore channel. They just got their new Southerly 480, which for me, is the ideal boat! A good combination of quality, size and features.

[@sucapizda]

Man what a great vid. So much info with out any bias. Thank you for talking freely and with such enthusiasm. Please do more vids like this. I love Amels, however Talisman seem to be roomier inside. I guess its those huge windows in the saloon. Are both yacht skeg rulers? And what about the keels?

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi LG. Thanks for the likes on this one. I'd say both boats feel roomy enough, with the Amel able to handle more people but with less privacy, if that makes sense. Both are skeg hung rudders and the keel on the Oyster is a bulb at the bottom of a medium fin. See our vid when we launched the boat last July. Also, sailboatdata.com has line drawings of all the boats and you can see visually there. The Amel keel is a bit of a "long keel" similar to a Hylas. Most of the production boats these days have high-aspect fin rudders and keels. These climb upwind but suffer leeway and "yawing" at anchor. The blade rudders are somewhat fragile too.

[@ynAMe6Aj]

Why doesn't the Amel engine room have access from the passage to the rear birth? It seems that if you are in heavy weather and need to open the engine from the cockpit you could ship salt spray, rain water, or even sea water.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Ed. I don't know. Also, since we don't own that boat I can't say with certainty that there's no other access. I can observe though that there's enough room in the engine bay to close the lid back down once you're inside, which speaks to the volume. Also, the cockpits of both our Oyster and the Amel Marimus and Super Maramus are pretty well protected. You might get some rain, but it's quite rare to have sea water in the cockpit, either by cresting the coamings or coming over the spray hood. Thanks for being with us!

[@ynAMe6Aj]

@@SailingTalisman My apologies. I should have checked who's channel I was commenting on. Once it is safe we'll try to look at both boats.

[@steveburton5825]

Having a separate, fully enclosed engine compartment keeps the smells out of the living quarters and is also another completely watertight compartment in the event of a collision. You do a lot of maintenance on a boat and it's nice to not have to take apart your living areas to work on the engine, generator, water makers, heaters, pumps, etc. In addition you would lose space in both the aft cabin and in the engine room for the door. As you would see in the engine room, every wall has things mounted on it as Amel's keep all of the noisy/smelly systems in the engine room. There isn't much worse than smelling a faint whiff of diesel when the seas are big. The engine room also goes further down into the boat's keel so contains the bilge sump. The in cabin bilges on Amel's are completely dry as the showers and sinks are plumbed directly to the bilge (the toilets are plumbed to holding tanks and then overboard directly). Most Amel owners use the cabin bilge areas for storage including for things like paper towels! In terms of accessing it in heavy weather, most cruising Amel's you see out in big water have fully canvased enclosed cockpits to protect the crew from the harsh elements (not just wind/rain but also sun which can be brutal at trade wind latitudes). The side panels zip up and on in minutes to fully protect you from the weather so access to the engine room is not an issue. I've changed impellers while hoving to without any issue at all or worrying about getting rain/spray into the engine compartment. One Super Maramu I know of went through hurricane conditions with the enclosed cockpit enclosure in place and the boat was submerged up to the winches on the masts (the chin of the guy at the helm) and he said the cockpit drained in 30 seconds and they didn't take on a drop of water inside.

[@ynAMe6Aj]

@@steveburton5825 Thank you for the thorough and informed explanation.

[@bradlarden]

Now that was a great video. I'd certainly like to see other comparison yachts as the opportunity presents itself. The downside is that I couldn't afford any of them :-).

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Brad. Keep an eye out on the off season. Older Super Maramus and Santorins come up at reasonable prices considering the size.

[@01dumbfrog]

Question? When walking up why put the bushes in between you and the topic of this video?

[@SailingTalisman]

@@01dumbfrog Probably just me being an idiot. I rarely see the footage I’ve shot before editing. So I mostly have to work with what I’ve got.

[@stevencollins5028]

Hi Kevin & Wendy, great video and comparison of 2 true classic Bluewater cruisers. Good detail and remarks, enjoyable viewing. I just want one....which one?.....yours. Cheers and best wishes.

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Steven. It's so great to hear from our viewers!

[@danconser6709]

Nice & informative video. Thanks! :-)

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks Dan.

[@svens.5139]

I think the Super Maramu ist the peak of all the Amels to this day.

[@SailingTalisman]

Agreed. The new models look beautiful to the eye, but don't have the sleek lines of the original Super Maramu.

[@al4385]

Delos has a little work desk instead of a large U berth in the master, and it doesn't have a step up into the master berth.

[@SailingTalisman]

Must have been one of the rare options for these boats, or perhaps something added by Brian. Henri Amel was notorious for offering very few available changes to the product. Thanks for watching.

[@jiefflerenard1228]

@@SailingTalisman I believe Delos is a Super Maramu 2000 a slightly newer edition.

[@SailingTalisman]

@@jiefflerenard1228 I'd imagine you're right. The general Super Maramu design has always been one of my favorites, up to and including the 54.

[@helomech1973]

Is there another brand that has the water tight doors like the Amel? That is a feature that I really want. This video has me narrowed down the Super Maramu now.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Brad. Sailing Britican is an Oyster 56 that has watertight bulkheads, since the original owner asked for it. But I don't know of any other brand, other than Amel, that has them standard. If you do get a boat that has them, you'll need to do a full inspection of the bulkhead all the way around, focusing on waterproofing the penetrations for wires and hoses. I have yet to see a boat that doesn't have a lot of gaps around these penetrations. Mostly, they seem to focus on slowing things down so you can find the leak and control it.

[@helomech1973]

@@SailingTalisman thanks, slowing the water down is better than nothing, but thanks will definitely take your advice.

[@woodstocknun]

some make it on demand, Najad for example.

[@iamnotpaulavery]

Both boats are beautiful and look solid. I love the Oyster's cockpit layout. It is simple with the big mounted multi display right in front and within easy reading distance from the wheel. That is very important to me. But, the Amel is built like no other and everything is laid out beautifully and thoughtfully so that it's highly serviceable. I have a question, though. And forgive me if it sounds stupid. But, on many, if not most, RVs, the refrigerators use propane. Why is it that yachts don't use them, aside from the fact that they're ridiculously expensive?

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Not Paul. As I've remarked before, the Amels were like Ferraris in that Henri Amel built the boat he wanted to make and if you didn't like it you could go elsewhere. Very little in the way of options. As such it appealed to a limited but amazingly loyal subset of sailors. The number of hulls is impressive, and you see them everywhere, all over the world. The appeal of the Oysters is that you see a traditional sloop rigged design, built to withstand anything, and with a very luxurious interior. The aft stateroom is the main selling feature, and is something you will never get in an aft-cockpit design less than 60' LOA. These are go-anywhere in any conditions mini-superyachts. As for the refrigeration, you pose a question I have never heard before. I'd reckon that if I were designing, my worries with propane for refrigeration would be twofold. First, it's already being used for cooking in most cases, and thus you'd need a lot more if using for refrigeration, and second, all sailors live in fear of fire and explosion. Unlike in the RV world, we can't just escape on foot from a burning boat. So the more moving parts, the greater the risk. I'd add that with four small 6lb tanks of Camping Gaz (an EU type of propane/butane blend, although straight propane works too), we run out every couple of months. And finding it is no small task in the Caribbean and US. We generally have to beat the bushes for a local gas supplier who will refill the tanks. And if they don't have the proper adaptor, then it's no-go. Anyway, thoughts for the day. Thanks so much for watching and being with us.

[@1corinthians15.1-4kjv]

Propane is already a safety hazard onboard boats and many tries to get away from even using propane on their stoves. Actually, more boat fires start in the galley, than anywhere else, including in the engine bay. The next thing is, if you go full on circumnavigation, it can be hard to even fill your propane tanks in certain places, because there is no worldwide standard. The other very obvious answer could be, that many boats today got so many ways installed already to make electricity, that working with potentially hazardous propane onboard for refrigeration seems meaningless. Almost all cruiser got either a genset or a high power alternator on the main engine or both, and then comes solar, wind turbines and hydrogeneration as other options on top. Windelo catamarans, for instance, now comes stock from factory with 5000 KW solar and 1000 KW hydrogeneration when sailing, so those boats came easily run all systems on electricity alone. I think though, that it is always smart to have other energy sources, if the electricity onboard fails, for some reason. It would take no more than a lightening strike.

[@davefoster7770]

Dude! Seriously? You have room for two more bottles of spirits in that cupboard. Sort it out. ;)

[@SailingTalisman]

We're on it! The problem is the bottles keep losing their liquid.

[@ppp9126]

Very good video, thank you

[@SailingTalisman]

Glad to hear it, and thanks for watching.

[@justinsteele5822]

Can you please tell me a bit more about how and when you use white vinegar to help stop the heads systems calcifying. We’ve just cleaned both ours H41 and I’d rather not do it again anytime soon! Thanks in advance ⛵️👍

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Justin. It has taken us years to get our heads operating reliably and fully understanding how they work. In answer to your question, Wendy buys white vinegar in the largest container she can find, gallon or 5 liter being the best. She then drains the toilet and pumps the vinegar down, then lets it sit overnight. You can often see calcium foaming immediately after. Also important to know is that the PVC flexible piping/hosing that is almost certainly a part of your system will allow fats to bleed through after about 3-4 years. You'll see this as a sticky coating on the PVC. And it will stink. At this point there's nothing to do except replace the hosing with the best quality (Vetus) hosing that you can find. If the toilets (Jabsco manual) themselves are filling with water or not pumping properly (and you've already replaced the joker and flapper valves), then replace the tower/pump assemblies. They're not that expensive and for us they proved to be one thing that fixed all our problems. With time they get scored inside the pump and there's no fixing that. BTW, In Spain they pump a product called Aqua Forte down the toilets. It's basically diluted hydrochloric acid, and it's the only thing that will actually eat away the solids in a mostly clogged piping system.

[@jayinkyiv135]

The Amel 54 is quite a step up from the SM.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Jason. Well that was certainly the plan.

[@pearlyshells2430]

well done, enjoyed...

[@SailingTalisman]

Thanks so much for the kind words.

[@robertsimon5059]

It is a very nice and sensitive comparison. First of all, both boats are premium sailboats. just check at the prices of Oyster or Amel sailboats when they are second or third-hand. Your comments about ketch sailboat (extra costs due to double masts...) may explain the birth of the Amel 50, who is a sloop with twin rudders, first Amel sloop since the Santorin in 1989 (end of production 1997). Space (volume) inside the Amel 50 is about the same as the Amel 55 (ketch). On deck, the cockpit is even longer due to the absence of mizzen mast. Fair winds to both of you.

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Robert. I'm so impressed by our viewer/commenters. I remember watching the Dolos episode where they visited the Amel yard and thinking that probably during the sales phase they get pushback from buyers saying "yeah, but it's a ketch, and I'm in the market for a sloop". I'm sure they heard that more than a few times and began thinking they were leaving money on the table. As can be seen from X-Yachts and Swan, there is definitely a market niche for solidly built medium displacement cruiser sloops.

[@ConstantimeThetimepotus]

There’s a bunch of chumps that tried to lead lives that I know will never own anything as beautiful as this! They can’t bring children to it too. lmao.

[@ericlakota6512]

This boat is amazing and the people are maticulas how well take care of u can tell how she sead its dirty haha it was clean as a wistel and tidey

[@SailingTalisman]

It was amazing. There was no time for them to clean up. I think they just keep it spotless all the time, which is really hard to do. Beautiful boat and great people. We really enjoyed meeting them.

[@AntonioCarlos-gi5sz]

essa embarcação está bem cuidada e bem limpinha ao contrário de muitas que aparecem nos vídeos, suja e cheia de breguessos....

[@user-hw1xq3hv7q]

Hello. What boats do you recommend watching at the end of the video? Or what boats are as good as yours? Thank you.

[@SailingTalisman]

The question depends on whether you want a coastal cruiser/production boat or offshore bluewater boat. The main difference is that coastal cruisers are lighter/faster but not as safe or comfortable in heavy seas. Ours is a bluewater cruiser designed for heavy punishment offshore. Others in our category would be Hallberg Rassy, Hylas, Malo, Nijad, Amel, Contest, Passport, Tayana, Swan, and Discovery (in no particular order).

[@meganharris98]

How are your teak decks working out? We are looking seriously at a Hylas 49 or Oyster 53 but the amount of teak is a bit intimidating...

[@SailingTalisman]

Hi Megan. Thanks for reaching out. Our decks are okay, but will probably need recaulking in the next year or two. Unfortunately, as I understand it, and it's hearsay but very likely true, the owner sent his friend over to clean the boat prior to closing and that person power-washed the decks, doing a fair amount of damage to the teak. The yard employees ran to tell him to stop but he yelled at them that he knew what he was doing (which was demonstrably false). I didn't hear about this until after we owned the boat, and probably couldn't or wouldn't have tried to do anything about it anyway, but I'm of the opinion that at least a year's worth of teak was removed, and a lot of the softer pulpwood between the rings suffered. The big thing with our teak decks, and it's something to consider on the Hylas too, is that ours are bonded down rather than screwed down. The decks (under the teak) of sailboats are made with what is called "sandwich" construction, with fiberglass top and bottom with a core in between. This core is often balsa, but with a lot of Oysters it's a closed cell foam (Airex I think). If water gets into a wood core it can become spongy and very heavy, and the primary way this happens is by way of screwed down teak decks. Your surveyor should check with a moisture meter and report on such. There will still be a few screws holding down the kingplank and a few other boards, but not the thousands of screws used with a fully screwed-down deck. Premium brands like Oyster, Swan and more recently built Hallberg Rassys take the view that if you can't afford the teak then you can't afford the brand. Hylas, while still being a premium brand, does offer their boats without teak decks when new, and we've seen a few speced that way. I think this follows from Hylas being a brand that got its start in the Caribbean charter fleets (back in the day ... no longer since they are way too high end now). If teak is well cared for it can last a long time, but if we ever have to replace ours I'd go with FlexiTeak synthetic material as it looks so real and will last forever if applied properly. Replacing a teak deck is astronomically expensive due to the labor cost of taking off all the fittings.

[@finnsailing69]

isn´t this the same boat as delos?

[@SailingTalisman]

Yes. Not sure about what years the two boats are.

[@sasfish1966]

Delos I think is a Amel SM 2000

[@SailingTalisman]

I know it's a Super Maramu, not sure about the exact model. And those guys rock! Anyway, thanks for watching.

[@steveburton5825]

@@sasfish1966 Delos is a 2001 Super Maramu 2000, while Serafin is a 1995 Super Maramu. Fairly minor differences... Delos has the blue fibreglass floor panels vs the teak/holly plywood ones in Serafin. Delos has electric vs manual toilets, a slightly different galley layout. Most of the later boats also had 13 batteries vs the 9 in Serafine, a second battery charger, a larger 24V alternator and Dual Razor pre-filters for the fuel. Many older SM's have been retrofitted to make them equivalent to the 2000 series. As Kevin has pointed out, Amel kept the changes to an absolute minimum and you can still today call up Amel and order obscure parts for it as they made 479 of them that are relatively the same.

[@sasfish1966]

@@steveburton5825 Yes thank you I am aware she is a SM but was not clear on the age I.E SM2000 or just SM. cheers