Ep. 57 | Long Range 1003: We Got the F-Class Guys

[@alfredschwartz9477]

One of the absolute best, eye opening sessions I've seen on YT in the last 10 years. The humbleness and humility of the people involved, the level of professionalism, the quest for knowledge and understanding and the scientific attitude are uplifting, inspiring and brought me back some hope in the future of humanity. Thank you!

[@VortexNation]

Glad you enjoyed - thanks for tuning in! :)

[@DakotaDoc]

This is without question (in my mind) the best podcast on F-Class there is. The only thing that could have made this clearer for those that don't know the sport, would be to roll in a few min video of an actual match, the targets, the pit etc...

[@casman9635]

I'm so glad they explained F class. I've heard of it many times, but never knew anything about it. It's sounds exactly like what we called Table 1 in the Marine Corps, but we went 200yds standing, 300yds kneeling and sitting, and 500yds prone. They use the ACOG now, but I shot iron sights on the M16 in Bootcamp and ACOG on my M4 in the fleet Marine Corps(after Bootcamp). It sounds right up my alley. Thank you for the info guys. Always love the podcast.

[@DakotaDoc]

That is still done in this type of sport, it is call High Power across the course. It is shot with .223 or 5.56 (commonly .223) in an AR Platform. Normally 20" barrels and in the past few years they are allowing fixed power optics up to a max of 4X.

[@casman9635]

@@DakotaDoc Ah. Thanks for letting me know. It sounds like they're basically trying to emulate what the military does. Since the military also started using the x4 ACOG. That's pretty cool.

[@lienrodeo]

even for the un-initiated , this is an amazing lesson in the science behind long range shooting. mind boggling and enlightening all at the same time.

[@stevekiemele995]

Incredible podcast. I shoot .22 LR bench rest and I picked up a lot of information that I expect to help me at 50 and 100 yards. We need 20 round “groups” within 1/4 inch at 50 yards. Thanks for all your podcasts.

[@michaelbaker3591]

A

[@Dmounts]

Hands down fry favorite podcast. I’ve watched this three times cuz it’s so amazing. I also love that they have guys pulling pits like we do in the Marine Corps shooting out to 500 yards with 5.56 haha.

[@seanhenke1507]

One of the most informative elr podcasts I've ever watched.. I'm a total new-b to the whole concept of elr. Explained well, and hit key points that I wanted to deplore indepth! Keep 'em coming.. thanks!

[@7071t6]

I started F class shooting under instruction in australia and i could not believe they types of customised weapons systems amiasing systems and so technical, like tunning, scope adjustments and type of reloading ? Basically 7.62mm X 51 and it has been over 40 years since i shoot a weapons system etc, but still learning and i hope to learn as much as i can, the F class open is the Formula one of target shooting world wide, in fact my shooting buddies are going to England in a couple of months. :)

[@iceisnice61]

Standing ovation!!!!. What an absolute pleasure to sit down and watch interesting and VERY intelligent people talk about things they love, in this case "F-Class". So many great details and "fun facts" ie 'where did F-Class get it names'. Fantastic questions by Jim and Mark...and on several occasions I had to smile, as I was thinking of a question and 'low and behold' Jim asked it. That's funny. My compliments gentlemen... this 'Long Range' series is Top Flight' and in my humble opinion, it is not only the best on YT but the entire 'net. (of course I am limited to languages I understand :-) Take Care... off to 1004

[@davidwilson2657]

I decided to check on Ian further and I am very impressed to be reminded of a younger me. I started shooting benchrest competition in the mid seventies when I was in my mid twenties. I eventually had custom left handed actions made but I did a lot of shooting with right handed guns. For shooting off a rest that makes a lot of sense.

[@ReferenceFidelityComponents]

Good points on BC being affected by the barrel rifling and lands. BC tuning is the only sensible way to tune ballistic apps based on testing. Using tested MV at 100, 200 and say 400 yds you note the mv, take the measured drop to group centres at each range and tweak the BC in the app until your app gives you the same drop at each range. G7 bc is the one to use for all boat tail designs whether they be tangent or secant ogive. G1 was originally developed for simple flat base tangent ogive early bullet designs and wont be representative for modern LR bullets. There’s no good reason to jam bullets. It’s daft. Optimum barrel time dictates accuracy node, nothing much else. Pick a seating 15 to 25 thou off the lands and work up the best accuracy load then work back in 3 thou steps to tune the load. Some secant ogive bullet designs don’t like ti be jumped but often are just hyper sensitive to run out which causes instability in them if they do not jam into rifling dead concentric. An accurately cut and reamed throat and chamber shoulders reduce this risk as do uniformed loads. It’s important to maintain low or zero runout in bullet seating for these bullets. Those things done, they’ll jump just fine. As well as sinusoidal whip, the gas pressure behind the bullet is such that as the bullet exits, a pressure wave “doughnut” is reflected back down the barrel then back up and this coinciding with bullet exit at a node or half node on sinusoidal whip to give what is termed Optimal Barrel Time. This is an accuracy node.

[@mattmills5145]

Their goal was to get into the ultimate nerdy ballistic conversation. I am pretty sure they accomplished that goal. But I found it both informative and interesting. Great podcast. Information you won’t find anywhere else on the internet much less KZbin.

[@cornydad]

So much to learn. I've shot out to 1000 yards 5 times but have never put this much info into my shots.

[@Charon-5582]

Thats incredible. I feel like the tuning for barrel whip is what made the SMLE so hard to get set up for manufacture in new factories in ww1...

[@johnfordham8133]

Nice to listen to a genius. Learned! Have him on again!!!

[@VortexNation]

Glad you enjoyed, John! :)

[@pepperoni-prepper]

best podcast ever. have it marked as #1 on my goto list

[@VortexNation]

Thank you!

[@andrewstoll4548]

Match rifle does 3 position also. 200 Standing slow fire, 200 rapid fire sitting/ kneeling, 300 rapid fire prone and 600 prone. 800 to 1000 is all slow fire prone.

[@haroldkahl4610]

I'm late to the party but can't resist getting nerdy on the calculation of rifle movement while the bullet is still in the barrel. The friction of the rifle against the ground will be insignificant compared to the force of the recoil. If the bullet has about 2000 ft-lb of kinetic energy at the muzzle, then the average force on the bullet over the 2.5 ft length of travel was 2000/2.5=800 lb. and the recoil force on the rifle is equal and opposite. The frictional force to move the rifle along the ground would probably only be a few pounds. Given that, we can consider the rifle, bullet. and powder charge to be a closed system with no external forces acting on it. Therefore the center of mass of the system does not change. The change of the center of mass of the bullet and powder are counteracted by that of the rifle moving the opposite direction. The 18 lb rifle weighs 126000 grains, the bullet weighs 200 grains and travels 30 inches. The powder probably weighs about 40 grains and the gases and unburnt powder go on average half way down the barrel, or 15 inches until the bullet exits the barrel. Then I would estimate that the rifle recoils [200*30 + 40*15]/126000 = 0.052 inch. This is pretty close to the 1/16 inch as stated in the video. There is no need to know the muzzle velocity to calculate this.

[@7071t6]

Guys as far as the .223, well in the end of march 2019, i was again asked to go to a match rifle and F/class open practice, and i could not believe the scores i got with the .223 from 800 to 1,200 yards, 800 yards with a .223 was 48 out of 50 and at 1,000 yards was again 47 out of 50 and at 1,200 yards got a score of 48 out of 50, beating the guys with their 7.62mm x 51mm match rifle shooting scores, now i know the bullet or projectile and powder and primer is all customised for that rifle and i think the projectile was 115 or maybe even 120 grain. not 100% sure, but this is it, like i mentioned below i have no gun licence ,went out their for fun really and i have never forgot the basic training i got while i was in the cadets at the age of 14 years old shooting at 400 yards with the Australian army issue SLR L1A1 7.62mm x 51mm military rounds and scored a 98 out of 100 with iron sights and got my marksman side arm patch as well, and thats over 40 years ago and i was so freaked out when i first went to the practice match rifle and f class open practice shooting and like i even was totaly freaked out by the electronic scoring board system lap top right next to you and you can see where the bullet hit with in a second & then you can make the adjustments if required, but due to the weapon systems not being mine, i did not adjustments the owners would tell me, left or right adjustment due to wind effects etc. :) PS Also just in the last few months i had my eyes tested and found out i had a cataract in my right eye, so if that was fixed ,then my scores would be even better, even though the scope acts like a i have glasses on, but again i did not touch the scope adjustments at all, they were left as is when the rifle was handed to me, i love it and just cant afford to buy everything i need just to even shoot any rifle 2nd hand or new, because of all the equipment required safe, loading items, cleaning items powder, ammo, storage of everything etc, but as soon as the covid19 issue is past us, i will be asking if i can go out there again to shoot the .223 and a match rifle which one of the Australian F Class and match rifle teams meet again for practice. :)

[@rik3849]

You know when you learn something that just blows your mind. This episode multiple times. 🤯🤯🤯🤯 Awesome!

[@williamsweet7511]

love the video, wish I say this a while ago, my pet peeve is Perceived Recoil... It's just recoil.

[@markmadsen6828]

Browning, for a while had the BOSS system, which worked awesome.. Not sure if they still offer it. But it was along the same thinking, an adjustable weight at the end of the muzzle tunable to specific loads.. They even gave you a chart for popular loads.

[@7071t6]

Guys this podcast was so informative, but i will explain how good f class rifles are, basically was asked if i wanted to shoot some rifles at a local range in australia and when i got there i was blown away with the weapon set up, all aluminum or synthetic stock, large scopes from niteforce to other really good scope brands and mostly .308 or 7.62mm x 51 custom loads ,well the last time i was asked to come along i shot a 5.56mm or .223 bassically and the score i got at 800 yards was 48 out of 50 and then at 1,100 yards a score of 47 out of 50, now think of it i have never shot a rifle for over 35 years and it shows that if you stick to the basic's which i learnt while in the cadets shooting the same ammo but with the australian basic army weapon system which was the SLR A1L1 7.62 mm x 51 at 400 yards with iron sights and scored a 98 out of 100 and i proves that the basic of long range shooting applied that day ,the only issue i had is this its not my rifle or weapon system ,which proves just how good the loads are and the weapon system is i even said after i shot one round that i pulled it to the right and because they used a electronic targeting system to tell you were the bullet or projectile hit, sure enough it was to the right of the V and the owner of the rifle was impressed, meaning that i knew i pulled that shot to the right, before he indicated it to me. Anyway i hope i can shoot again, as i am disabled meaning that i would need to shoot on a bench or prone, as a left leg amputee i was so glad i had the chance to shoot with the australian F class champions, totaly amazing experience and i hope i can shoot again?

[@BrianShawEire]

F Class is a fine balancing act on the edge of Analysis Paralysis, where every detail is taken into account from curvature of the earth to grains of powder is in a round, all to keep is consistent.

[@douglasrjohnson1]

Great discussion, thanks! Reminds me of how much I don't know...

[@tylerrobertst-rob1731]

Always gotta break in a new barrel and get your copper fouling built up. Alot of guys will do different processes. I always clean mine with a cleaner that doesn't remove fouling, shoot a round clean shoot a round clean, for about 10 rounds. Then shoot 5 rounds clean till I get about 25 rounds, then around 60 to 70 rounds the group's are getting where I like them. Then I'll go out and shoot some of the gongs I have setup. After about 200 rounds she's good to go

[@7071t6]

guys cold bore shooting is never ever going to be after shooting a few rounds down the barrel and then again if the barrel is hot due to the weather that can effect the bullet or projectile. so in comps, its really hard unless you know which projectiles and weather and outside temps do to each round and when you have every single temp mapped out for barrel cold shots and based on outside weather ,then you will have it down pat, but that takes a lot of shooting rounds and calculations based on all the data collected, but again to do this it will take years, but most of the projectile manufacturers will have most of the data, based on computer calculations approx which you can use ,but its all non valid due to the type of barrels used and primers used and powders used ,so you have to do it yourself if you want to be real good at ELR shooting and scoring hi scores to be no 1 in the world. :)

[@melikab]

Counting and splitting powder kernels, woah.

[@johnclark1925]

We need a Vortex mirage tutorial… filmed on range. 😎

[@chrisstaudt1843]

+1

[@neilgroves1972]

This is a great video with some excellent technical insight. The positive compensation helps explain some empirical data I have found where my best groups at 100 yards were often with the worst muzzle velocity spread. How is this positive compensation and barrel tuning working out? Is there going to be a follow up on this? It appears to be essential to use either different loads and/or a barrel tuner to be able to have optimal positive compensation at the different distances. It would be interesting to hear how one projects the multiple effects of positive compensation from trajectory and the differing wind drift due to differing time in flight, and paths. It appears from the calculations I have done that the precision of tuning becomes extraordinarily difficult to keep in a window at 1000 yards. It also appears that a large mass may cause other issues. I wonder if there is data about the wave-lengths for carbon-wrapped barrels. I assume that currently the carbon wrap is intended to increase stiffness, which would increase the frequency of the wave, and make positive compensation more difficult to use. With carbon layering being so adaptable depending on the weave is there potentially an avenue to explore by weaving the carbon differently to deliberately allow the longer wave length?

[@communicationiskey-]

Excellent very well explained complex topic made simple

[@jesseryan4053]

Only thing I found crazy is that the one guy only loads brass 4 times and does not anneal. Annealing for me helped with groups quite a bit. Consistent neck tension, and keeping the brass soft and workable.

[@owned323]

Yeah annealing is a good practice but most don't anneal until after the 5th or 6th load, sometimes even further. Hell one of my buddies who runs competitions here and competes at an F Class national level doesn't anneal his until after 9 loads shooting 6mm BR and TAC 40

[@sanecrazy12]

Wow this was awesome!! So much information!!

[@VortexNation]

Glad you enjoyed :)

[@frankivey960]

Regarding the aperture ring for the Golden Eagle scope where is the optimal location for installation when using the lense shade? Aperture ring on the objective first then the shade or the shade first then the aperture ring? Or does the environmental conditions dictate location? Or it doesn't matter at all?

[@brandonschlund8089]

Great topic today guys! Full of a lot of great information.

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for watching!

[@brandonschlund8089]

Lots of positive comments over on accurateshooter.com. Most would love to see the topic revisited and expanded upon. Any chance you guys could set that up?

[@VortexNation]

@@brandonschlund8089 Great to hear! What are folks asking that we expand upon? Always happy to chat more about long range shooting and competition. Thanks!

[@brandonschlund8089]

Hoping that we could hear more about form/technique, wind/mirage reading, bipod/rear bags for FTR and front rests for Fopen(along with other calibers Fopen can use). Optics, stocks, custom actions vs factory. Hope this helps.

[@VortexNation]

@@brandonschlund8089 Ooh all good stuff - will pass this along to Ian and the team and see what we can drum up. Thanks!

[@ronws2007]

And, to quote David Lee Roth, "Might as well jump!"

[@gristlepounder]

Great video!

[@justaregularguy3827]

I will be sh you guys could do a 10-20min vid on strictly the rules and setup of ftr and f open that would help so much plz

[@7curiogeo]

Note I love my vortex scope.

[@7curiogeo]

I have learned so much it incredible. Thank you guys so much. Haha Takeing notes. Adding to my "book of the gun".

[@soonersteve3733]

Watched 1001 and 1002 but this podcast grabbed me by the balls! I want to shoot F Class! I used to shoot national match service rifle open sights. Since watching this video I have one question. From what I heard and understand is these guys are using a center mass hold relying on the loads having predictable vertical trajectory and using either hold off or scope adjustments to deal with the wind. My question is do the pre zero the rifle for each range?

[@ronws2007]

Jimmy asked why would someone shoot a .223 out to 1,000 yards. My answer is money. I shall explain. One of my bosses, the owners of my company, has had sharpshooter training. He once made a bet with some friends and fellas. He hit a balloon at 850 yards, in the wind, with his AR-15. It some dialing elevation and hold over (I think he had a LPVO on there.) And he made some money. Granted, it was only dinner money. And I could see some doing it for bragging rights. There is a channel called woodchuckin. Those woodchucks are a pest, an invasive species that root up farm fields. Anyway, on some of the bigger farms, he is woodchuckin is shooting over 750 yards with a .22-250, for example.

[@VortexNation]

Very interesting - we appreciate the insight and the idea!

[@joeschuster2837]

Is this the same as benchrest only shot in the prone position?

[@DanielBoone337]

I was definitely one of those people wondering WTF is f-class!!! LOL

[@SpinandThrowDiscGolf]

Bart Sauer tunes the ammo to the node at the match. I have been trying to tell people this for years. It's not the temp it's the air density. Anyone who flies a plane will tell you. Thin air less drag thick air more drag. Hot air is thinnner.

[@raining1975]

I don't think there is time to reload at an F Class match, unless you are referring to the tuner on the barrel.

[@planeiron241]

@@raining1975 5 shots in .2562 is Bart Sauter at 600 yds he also makes some of the best bullets in the universe besides The Almighty

[@raining1975]

@@planeiron241, 5 shots sounds like benchrest not F Class. F Class is multiple stages of 20 shots for record and you have pit duty. At an F Class match, you don't have time to load ammo when you are there. The only tuning you could possibly do is with a barrel tuner and I have read that people who mess with their turner during a match usually regret it.

[@planeiron241]

@@raining1975 yep it's br, but in F class you can shoot off a bench if handicapped or unable to belly shoot because of medical issues

[@lynndornan9766]

Great show more info than this old brain can take in but I did watch till then end😂

[@WestDesertShooter]

Awesome stuff guys!

[@VortexNation]

Thank you!

[@V.TrainingResearchSoldiering]

This dude is just describing a Marine Corps rifle qualification. Lol

[@aaronallen4647]

Woobie... my thoughts exactly...

[@crush3095]

mind blowing

[@andrewstoll4548]

I would love if Vortex made a scope for the Highpower Service Rifle. We can only have a max 4.5X power.

[@VortexNation]

We'll look into it! Any specific features you would be looking for?

[@andrewstoll4548]

@@VortexNation so regarding Service rifle rules. It can be 4.5X max power and have a 34mm objective lens. When on the rifle it cannot be more than 3.5" above center line of the bore. White Oak sells a service rifle scope. Also Night Force. I would love another option. Thank you for your time.

[@Pilottoproperties]

Who makes this bipod

[@einarpe444]

Great video guys!

[@aaawman2280]

Walls of loaded mags all over the place, can I move in?

[@JIMPONYD]

Is there a national calendar of matches for F-class events?

[@stephenhart8981]

look up nra high power match in your area that's where they shoot it will say in the match details which classes they are shooting.

[@freedomisgolf5816]

Watched whole vid brilliant what does the cover with the hole in it do I’m a bit confused as I’ve just ordered one on scope i shoot Copenhagen standard were we shoot only 155.5 gran only

[@VortexNation]

The cover with the hole in it is an aperture stop. It actually makes your objective smaller, for all intents and purposes, which has the optical effect of giving you a bigger depth of field. That means you can see a greater amount of the range in focus at once, helping judge multiple different layers of wind/mirage.

[@ianchenery2410]

Ian I want your T shirt......

[@VortexNation]

We unfortunately discontinued that one but there are plenty more new ones here! - vortexoptics.com/more-products/apparel/mens.html

[@joeschuster2837]

What calibers are allowed in the class you shoot?

[@averageoutdoorsmannz2015]

Think it's either under .35 cal for open or a choice of 308 or 223 for standard.

[@SpinandThrowDiscGolf]

If you have a load that requires you split kernels you need a new load.

[@VortexNation]

lol "If you're so close to achieving perfection that you're splitting kernels to get closer, you should just ditch the entire thing and start over..."? He's not saying that splitting kernels is the difference between accuracy and completely throwing him off, he's saying those are the lengths he's going to in order to further improve accuracy.

[@neilgroves1972]

@@VortexNation My interpretation of his reloading procedure was that he chose differently sized kernels at the end to come to the most consistent load. Splitting a kernel for many powders would have negative results since while the mass may be more consistent many powders are coated and the inconsistency of a split kernel would be more significant than the gain from mass consistency. I shoot F-class F/TR in the UK and I will choose a differently sized kernel if the difference shows as an error on my scale. This happens about 2 in 50 loads. I know many fellow competitors that do choose kernels to get accurate mass. I don't think anyone many believe that the swap of kernel makes a practical difference directly, it's more to keep away from problems from tolerance stacking.

[@alexmason1387]

Splits kernels of powder…. Doesn’t anneal

[@blindboyjonny]

Unfortunately there was a lot of falsehood exhibited by this expert. The sign you’ll see it will waive this not go up and down necessarily it also goes left and right in at 45° it’s actually making circles. Turn on the hose and grab onto a different lakes and you’ll see that it flips in all different directions same exact premise. This vertical compensation idea is a myth.

[@davidwilson2657]

You might have a point if I could figure out what you are trying to say. Maybe have someone proofread for you.

[@tonydevich7937]

Erik cortina

[@rsf5898]

The video contained an amazingly poor description of what the commentator called ‘match rifle’ shooting.

[@tjarmand]

Ian im a huge nerd please help me!! lol

[@freedomisgolf5816]

F Open Standard

[@MrT13]

Pretty far into barrel tuning..

[@smmj45]

Makes the sport sound so boring

[@ryanmitchell8132]

Awesome to hear form the F-class guys but that host is super annoying. He acts like he has never heard any reloading terms at all and just wants to make dumb jokes.

[@gesheepistemology8050]

Overthinking arseholes ruined 308 target shooting!