Ep119: Pt 1: The Book of Abraham: The Smoking Gun of Mormonism

On this extremely informative episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon sit down with our knowledgeable friend, Andrew Schnobrich, to do a deep, yet accessible dive into The Book of Abraham.
Andrew has created a slide show and presentation that helps all of us more clearly understand the overwhelming problems with the BOA translation and Joseph Smith's claim to have translated it from Reformed Egyptian.
Andrew's comprehensive slide presentation takes us through this translation process step by step, to help us understand the multiple problems and discrepancies that exist in what is supposed to be a prophetic translation of a record written by Moses' own hand.
Once you understand the real meaning of the characters and the drawings, it becomes obvious Joseph Smith did not translate this papyri correctly by any stretch of the imagination. This creates a big problem for the Pearl of Great Price and the LDS church itself.
This is Part 1 of a two part series on The Book of Abraham.
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[@elderigloo]

Thanks so much for having me on! It was a lot of fun. One thing I realized latter is I left out one important detail about how we know manuscript A and B were simultaneous dictations, which is a contended point with apologists. We know this because of the identical emendations and spelling errors consistent with someone taking down a dictation, not copying from each other or from some other document. Dan Vogel covers this in much more detail in his videos/book. This is critical because it puts smith in the room with these documents that associates English translation with specific characters. This makes the reverse translation theory and thus the missing scroll theory debunked in my opinion. Obviously this won’t settle the issue for “outrageous”apologists but it should for any reasonable person.

[@rebeccabibliotheca]

Thanks for clarifying!!’

[@markkrispin6944]

Mormons are not reasonable people though. That is the problem

[@Themanyfacesofego]

17:26...Love the clown nose on Smith😅.🤡

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Love Dan Vogel and thank you so much.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

​@@ThemanyfacesofegoIKR? 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@david-morris]

Mormonish for the win. 🎉

[@SteveSmith-os5bs]

After I did my deep dive into the life of Joseph Smith, I did a deep dive into the Book of Abraham and that was pretty much the coup de grace to my testimony.

[@trumpdanusan]

testimony is used scam sell at 2am

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions back in 2014.

[@thatcat8442]

I am so glad you guys showed up in my feed. I am learning so much! Thank you! Just wanted to add, I loved the digital necromancy, lol

[@courtneybrock1]

Digital Necromancy would make a sweet band name. 😂

[@DeathValleyDazed]

Mormon*ish hits another one out of the park, all the way to Kolob!

[@theaudacityofit5528]

Rock on fab podcast guys. ❤

[@kentthalman4459]

Andrew does an exceptional job being very clear and concrete. As such, it's such a valuable video.

[@ZakMakoff]

Andrew has put together very good slides, Landon brings up some very good points, Rebecca is lovely as ever with her witty charm. Landon looks very handsome and younger looking with his side part! Thank you Everyone for another wonderful episode!

[@elizabethrose9364]

I heard in 1967 that Hugh Nibley was actually told by real Egyptologist’s what it really was but the church covered it up.

[@markkrispin6944]

I am not surprised at all

[@Themanyfacesofego]

Apparently Nibley knew of the existence of the sensen papyri for several years, before they were "discovered." He didn't want to get involved in defending the Book of Abraham ( as admitted in private correspondence) He must have known it was false.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

I can believe that. Shades of J. F. Smith and 1st vision...

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

What is your response to the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith?

[@Themanyfacesofego]

@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii NO RESPONSE required.

[@jogsingumboots]

Around 1:15:00 it sounds like he's heard the names of the parts of speech but not remembered the actual definitions well. What Smith has said here is as messed up as his planet names. Plus the 'dot' issue is interesting, only in English is 'eye' and 'I' homophones.

[@QuinnPrice]

Great episode. I remember hearing Truman Madsen (an LDS intellectual) say, "the fragments we have don't match the Book of Abraham, but we know that God used it to deliver the message he wanted." What?! That got me interested in deconstruction. The JST is another jaw dropping WTF. And B of M anachronisms... etc... Great guest!

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith.

[@paulgregersen3570]

​Yes he did. Link his name to see why. ​@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii

[@alamoclayton0306]

Onandagus as the prophet/king over Zelph and Princess Katumin the daughter of King One-i-tax. Wouldn't you say that each king has a similar name. It is like Joseph thought different names sounded more exotic and had to be used over and over.

[@joshuaconnelly2415]

The LDS church's apologists now formulated the "catalyst theory" on the scrolls. The two problems with the catalyst theory are (1) that JS said he translated scrolls written by the hand of Abraham, which was a blatant lie, and (2) it is the brethren's job to articulate an argument for the BoA, especially since the brethren lead members to think they hold a face-to-face meeting with Jesus every Thursday night in the SLC temple. So how is the BoA even a problem? The brethren could've just asked the Lord and gotten the definitive answer right away.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

HAHAHA, priceless. One by the name of Paul Gregersen debunked the Egyptologists.

[@joshuaconnelly2415]

@RichardHolmes-ll8ii , oh grow up.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

​@@joshuaconnelly2415?

[@joshuaconnelly2415]

@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii?

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

​@@joshuaconnelly2415??

[@marys.currie9026]

Is his first name actually Elder

[@LadyIcicle96]

As his wife, can confirm his first name is Elder

[@Themanyfacesofego]

If his 2nd name was Elder, he could go on a Mission as Elder Elder ( There was actually a case of this)

[@burner27]

​@@ThemanyfacesofegoI had a Bishop Bishopp

[@robinnetto6794]

Joseph was missing his whistle :0)

[@helenvick522]

Eye opening to say the least. Thanks

[@TheSaintelias]

Fairmormons explanation of the book of Abraham is what finally made me stop my mental gymnastics to keep my faith in the church. Book of Abraham is literally the proof JS couldn’t translate, he was a great story teller and not a prophet of god.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

What is your response to the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith?

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

What is your response to the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith?

[@Flintlock1776]

@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii By "arrogant Egyptologist" you actually mean real ones, not fake ones from BYU that nobody on earth takes seriously outside you're own echo chamber.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

​@@Flintlock1776Did I ask for your bigoted opinion?

[@Flintlock1776]

@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii Ah, bigotry...the default accusation of those who have run aground in the precarious shallows of their own argument.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Oneidas? Oneida community in JS time??. Great silverware 😮😮😮

[@jaylarsen67]

Simon Garfunkel song is not What's It All About Abraham.😅

[@alexlintu26]

❤❤

[@TheSaintelias]

Did god punish all snakes for the sin of the one snake? Some poor snake is walking along and all of the sudden his legs are gone.

[@RachaelLewis68]

The Book of Abraham (and the other books in the Pearl of Great Price), likely came from a secret Masonic archives/library. It tells the tale of the premortal Council from Lucifer's perspective, for he is the "one like unto God" in chapter 3 verse 24. It should be read in parallel with Ezekiel 28, for this is when the "annoited cherubim that covereth" talked the "stones of fire" (or the "gnolaum/intelligences) into giving up their first estate to take on a flesh body. For in Psalm 104: 4, it says that God makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire. That sounds much like what a gnolaum was, a flame of fire/stone of fire. When we agreed, we got cast down into the lowest parts of the earth until we could be woven into our mother's womb (Psalm 139: 15). The one like the Son of Man in Abraham 3: 27 is Jesus Christ, who also took on flesh to become our Kinsman Redeemer as the carnal commandments in Leviticus 25 required, and to pay for our sin with His perfect blood. And Jesus told the Pharisees that they were from below the earth in John 8: 23, "And He said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." The stuff about Kolob probably came from the fallen angel Kokabiel, who is listed among the fallen Watchers in 1Enoch chapter 8. Here is some other info on Kokobial: "Kokabiel (Kabiel, Kakabiel, Kochab, Kochbiel, Kokbiel) is a Fallen Angel also described as a good angel. Kokabiel means “star of God.” In 1 Enoch Kokabiel is a fallen angel who commands 365,000 Demons. In 3 Enoch he is prince of the stars, commanding 365,000 myriads of ministering angels who make the stars run from city to city and from state to state in the Raqia’ of the heavens. In the Sefer Raziel, Kokabiel is a high-ranking angel. SOURCE: The Encyclopedia of Demons and Demonology - Written by Rosemary Ellen Guiley - Copyright © 2009 by Visionary Living, Inc." And it has a lot on the lineage of Cain. Masons love the lineage of Cain, Tubal Cain was even a password at one time. The city of Enoch is about Cain's son, Enoch, who is listed in Genesis chapter 4 as having a city named after him. This was the evil Enoch, not to be confused with the good Enoch who came from Seth. This evil Enoch was also taken up by "god" to become the angel of the Platonic solids, Metatron. We have all became trapped in Metatron's cube, that's the sacred geometry of the cross--it's Metatron's cube unfolded. The floating city of Enoch is probably the remnant tower of the city of Babel, which according to the book of Jasher chapter 9, is "aloft." Jasher 9: 37, "And they ceased building the city and the tower; therefore he called that place Babel, for there the Lord confounded the Language of the whole earth; behold it was at the east of the land of Shinar. 38 And as to the tower which the sons of men built, the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up one third part thereof, and a fire also descended from heaven and burned another third, *and the other third is left to this day, and it is of that part which was aloft,* and its circumference is three days' walk. There is also the ancient remains of T*enoch*titlan, in Mexico, who worshipped the plumed serpent... Perhaps it was located just as Joseph Smith, said and explains the Gulf of Mexico..

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

One by the name of Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith.

[@Flintlock1776]

Sure. A four hour video of numerology. It's 100 percent bullshit.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Wasn't the serpent on legs in Garden of Eden? Hmm. Genesis...

[@kentthalman4459]

There are many smoking guns

[@Sirwalter2008]

JS was one of a kind narcissist...

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Well...JS. Tim Ballard. Donald Trump. Folks get caught up in their own PR. I guess.

[@TheSaintelias]

I don’t know if the page with the A sound listed is the first page or not. If it is it’s hilarious the first translated sound is AHH for A. Is the next Egyptian sound BA for B? What made up shit.

[@burner27]

Pythons have vestigial limbs. They diverged from Lizards.

[@radybay9088]

Are there people out there that don’t know that the book of abraham is a fake?

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

According to church statistics 17 million!

[@TheSaintelias]

Majority of active members. Unless you have the energy to research church will never give you the slightest hint nod it’s BS origin.

[@Sirach144]

It’s proof that JS was a false prophet.

[@marquitaarmstrong399]

Speaking in tongues. Has happened to me twice in my life. Still not sure what it was. Spiritual visit? Brain glitch? Who knows? But was real...😮😮😮

[@user-ux3vb5zg1p]

Elder your wrong no one could do all the things Joseph Smith did in his short life without God and the holy spirit can you prove that the donkey that spoke in the bible didn't or all the plagues didn't happen or the blind see GOD Works in mysterious ways to strengthen our faith we need to pray daily when we put him first he will reveal the mysteries to us when we are ready because He won't be mocked it's sad you have left the church just to be free to do what you like Sundays instead of taking the sacrament to remember Him He is waiting for you to bless you G

[@mormonishpodcast1036]

You don’t have to prove all of these other things if he lied about the Book of Abraham he lied about all of it and he definitely lied about the Book of Abraham that is easily provable!

[@bootsrufflin1629]

A couple of very obvious observations and responses to points raised/asked by Landon I believe: 1) Any linguist working on a PhD would laugh/roll their eyes or both after spending 15 minutes on this. Having studied seven languages myself ( Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Russian, Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, as well as a semester on Sumerian Theology from a professor at Harvard who was a recognized authority on Akkadian/Cuneiform), it is patently obvious that JS, was applying the common tactic described thusly: “ if you can’t impress them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!” The use of lines above simple random “ characters” to indicate “ degrees” etc., is nonsense. All of these documents simply prove JS was a charlatan. It is overwhelming, undeniable, proof of that. Joseph Smith was a fraud. End of analysis.

[@Flintlock1776]

The only appropriate response to Joseph Smith as a prophet is, indeed, mockery.

[@timwrightfamily740]

Absolutely a smoking gun. 1. The book of Abraham speaks disapprovingly of human sacrifice offered on an altar in Chaldea. Some victims were placed on the altar as sacrifices because they rejected the idols worshipped by their leaders.Recent scholarship has found instances of such punishment dating to Abraham’s time. 2. The book speaks of “the plain of Olishem,” a name not mentioned in the Bible. An ancient inscription, not discovered and translated until the 20th century, mentions a town called “Ulisum,” located in northwestern Syria. 3. Abraham 3:22-23 is written in a poetic structure more characteristic of Near Eastern languages than early American writing style. 4. Facsimile 1 and Abraham 1:17 mention the idolatrous god Elkenah. This deity is not mentioned in the Bible, yet modern scholars have identified it as being among the gods worshipped by ancient Mesopotamians. 5. Joseph Smith represented the four figures in figure 6 of facsimile 2 as “this earth in its four quarters.” A similar interpretation has been argued by scholars who study identical figures in other ancient Egyptian texts. 6. Facsimile 1 contains a crocodile deity swimming in what Joseph Smith called “the firmament over our heads.” This interpretation makes sense in light of scholarship that identifies Egyptian conceptions of heaven with “a heavenly ocean.” 7. The book of Abraham is consistent with various details found in nonbiblical stories about Abraham that circulated in the ancient world around the time the papyri were likely created. In the book of Abraham, God teaches Abraham about the sun, the moon, and the stars. “I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt,” the Lord says, “that ye may declare all these words.”Ancient texts repeatedly refer to Abraham instructing the Egyptians in knowledge of the heavens. For example, Eupolemus, who lived under Egyptian rule in the second century B.C.E., wrote that Abraham taught astronomy and other sciences to the Egyptian priests. 8. A later Egyptian text, discovered in the 20th century, tells how the Pharaoh tried to sacrifice Abraham, only to be foiled when Abraham was delivered by an angel. 9. According to ancient texts recently discovered, Abraham taught members of the Pharaoh’s court through astronomy. All these details are found in the book of Abraham. Joseph was an un-educated poor farm boy living on the frontier who had to work everyday to eat. He was not doing a scholarly direct word for word translation, he was receiving revelation based on the papari. Its a straw man argument to try and find translation errors. I would invite any who think it was all made up to please create something similar. We have more education, resources and time then he did. Thanks for letting me comment, I appreciate that all views are allowed on your site. The restoration of the Gospel is the most glorious thing imaginable. I'm so glad I found it. The other side of this argument can be found here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j52pnptrqdmkZ8U Thanks again.

[@bootsrufflin1629]

Two very easy and quick comments: 1) while JS was recovering from surgery on his leg, for about two years, Hyrum was going to Moors School/Dartmouth College where he was attending lectures and hearing sermons by authors such as Swedenborg. Hyrum cared for young JS during this time and they no doubt discussed a broad range of ideas and deep theologies/ideas probably on a daily basis. Hyrum was getting very well educated formally, and was certainly an intelligent young man who was learning a great deal. 2) Many of these points are a version of a common practice by LDS believers…inserting meaning into randomness. Finally, I had to memorize about two hundred Sumerian and Akkadian names of various gods and goddesses during a class on Sumerian Theology and never came across the name you note. I’m sure if you are being intellectually honest with yourself, you would enjoy reading about Atrahasis, Enuma Elish, The Epic of Gilgamesh and related information.