Ep124: The Book of Mormon and Other Neophyte Scriptures: A Response to Dr. Lundwall with Dr. Murphy

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Күн бұрын

On this episode of Mormonish Podcast, Rebecca and Landon are joined by Dr. Thomas Murphy as he responds to the research on Book of Mormon authenticity that Dr. John Lundwall has shared previously on our podcast. We're excited to engage in this peer review process and learn a number of new things in the process.
Dr. Murphy explores the important perspective that time and place matter. He shares important information on neophyte scriptures that existed at the time and place of the Book of Mormon's 1830 publication in Palmyra, NY.
We also discuss the idea that because Joseph Smith did not disclose his interactions with living Iroquois neophytes and instead represented his sources as dead Nephites, the Book of Mormon functions as a destructive tool of European settler colonialism.
Dr. Murphy's analysis of neophyte scripture substantiates Dr. Lundwall’s argument that the historical text itself is the most anachronistic element of the Book of Mormon and introduces even more compelling evidence of how the Book of Mormon was actually created.
All of Dr. Thomas Murphy’s info can be found here:
Link to Dr. Murphys slideshow from the presentation:
academia.edu/resource/work/11...
General Academia Profile
edcc.academia.edu/ThomasMurphy
Conference and Podcast Slideshows
edcc.academia.edu/ThomasMurph...
Angelo Baca's Film, "In Laman's Terms: Looking at Lamanite Identity"
www.cultureunplugged.com/docu...
Dr. John Lundwall’s episode that is being addressed:
• Ep57: Pt 1: New Ground...
edcc.academia.edu
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Пікірлер: 47

@TomMcGraw-zd2sl 6 ай бұрын

Mormonism has to be the greatest detective story of all time.

@suzieq5383 6 ай бұрын

Rebecca and Landon, you guys are killing it with your podcast episodes! 👏🏻

@rodneybosborne 6 ай бұрын

This podcast is a treasure. Thank you Rebecca, Landon, and Dr. Murphy!

@_Truth-Seeker_ 6 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for creating a platform for this interview, Mormon.ish. Dr. Murphy, thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom. Me and my family found so much value in this video.

@Ischyromys 6 ай бұрын

Thanks Dr. Murphy, this fills in so many gaps in the origin of the details of the Book of Mormon!

@jenlebel617 6 ай бұрын

Looking forward to this episode. Love the quality of Mormonish Pocast!

@mormonishpodcast1036 6 ай бұрын

Thomas Murphy has some great new insights! It is an academic episode so let the learning begin!

@garycobia3700 6 ай бұрын

Please thank Dr. Murphy this is very informative!

@drtwmurphy 6 ай бұрын

@@garycobia3700 You’re welcome!

@SilentThundersnow 6 ай бұрын

I support Dr John Lundwall!! 😊👍🏻👏🏻

@thelastgoonie6555 6 ай бұрын

I sustain him as well!

@aubrey6538 6 ай бұрын

At minute 23 really resonated with me on the topic of writing I’ve always felt since leaving the church recordkeeping and writing it was just another way for the church to keep us busy journaling, genealogy, temple work ward clerk, all things like this have to do with writing and recordkeeping. Thank you so much for this comment it kind of has validated, my feelings on this

@grandmaroxie2210 6 ай бұрын

This info is so mind-blowing. Thank you all for your hard work and studies. Thank you for keeping us informed.

@barryrichins 6 ай бұрын

The first Sunday schools were formed to teach reading to the European illiterate masses who had to work six days of the week and and had neither the time nor the money to go to any type of school, as there was no such things as public education. It was public literacy that had a great influence on the industrial revolution, including the need for better printing presses to print more books and pamphlets, which meant more people wanted to learn and write to share old and new ideas, including novels, which caused people to want more books for entertainment and pleasure.

@johnuhler3530 6 ай бұрын

Thank you Rebecca and Landon and a very special thanks to Doctor Thomas Murphy. Doctor Murphy your scholarship, research and dedication to education is amazing and greatly appreciated! Thank you!

@Mrfixit434 6 ай бұрын

As a critic of Mormonism, I found Dr. Murphy’s discourse and position on this topic very honest, applicable, and genuine. When I’m ready to present my critical research evidence that has never been publicly seen or previously discussed, I will very likely reach out to him first.

@helenvick522 6 ай бұрын

Thank you. The church doesn’t encourage thinking outside of the box (Mon-Mormonism). It so great to be able see academically outside the church’s box.

@schrecksekunde2118 2 ай бұрын

it's wonderful to listen to gentle souls like Dr lundwall and Dr Murphy talking about these interesting stories love & greetings from Vienna, Austria

@GTD278 6 ай бұрын

Dr. Murphy's research is amazing. I can't wait to read his book when it comes out.

@sleepycalico 6 ай бұрын

Deeply appreciate this scholarship. Thanks.

@toducate 5 ай бұрын

The 1,000 year old webpage is a perfect analogy! So anachronistic. Moroni’s promise is essentially assuming everyone can simply read and ponder his blog. 🤯

@toducate 5 ай бұрын

Oh, I just got to 58:00 and they basically said something like this. I should have watched the whole thing first. 😂

@katesomossy4157 5 ай бұрын

Summary quote from Dr. Murphy... "I think the Book of Mormon, it reaches about as close to impossibility as you can get."

@ginafrancis4950 5 ай бұрын

I’m gobsmacked! I really appreciated this episode. Thank you so much! Dr Murphy is Brilliant! 🫶

@mormonishpodcast1036 5 ай бұрын

Yes both Dr. Murphy and Dr. Lundwall are top notch!

@marquitaarmstrong399 6 ай бұрын

I am so enjoying this. Thank you all. 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

@Wren402 6 ай бұрын

This was fascinating! Thank you.

@dl1130 6 ай бұрын

My belief in the bom is that it is a fictional account. I believe there is much wisdom contained therein. However, such a belief is considered apostate. Therefore, there is no space within mormonism unless one believes that a fictional book is true! That only leaves to internal strife and disingenuous belief. It's not a healthy relationship for the soul!

@drtwmurphy 6 ай бұрын

You are not alone. Many Indigenous readers approach the Book of Mormon as figurative and allegorical. In my recent article, co-authored with Angelo Baca (Navajo/Hopi) and Simon Southerton, "Science and Fiction: Kennewick Man/Ancient One in Latter-day Saint Discourse" we outline and cite these Indigenous readings as an alternative to the Mesoamerican and Heartland settings. That essay is available for free on my Academia page (linked in the show notes).

@Sadie37 6 ай бұрын

This is so good! Loving it!❤️

@ZakMakoff 6 ай бұрын

I like Dr. Murphy, his lecture was simple so that a stupid silly blonde like me can easily understand what he is talking about. I think I'll go to Dillard's and pick out a smart fedora hat! Great Episode R & L

@mormonishpodcast1036 6 ай бұрын

I am sure you will look very dapper in a Fedora Zak!

@slicgreendueler4884 4 ай бұрын

Thank you Rebecca! I really like to listen to your intelligent insight!

@LazarWolf07 6 ай бұрын

2 Nep 29:3 Never once stood out to me the significance of the word “Bible” being there. So, god told JS through his rock that word which would exist in the future and everyone would recognize it etc…why isn’t it that way with the other unique words like Deseret? Nephi heard the word “bible” and just rolled along like he already knew and understood the word so he just wrote it down…cause they probably had a reformed Egyptian word for “bible” already anyways…

@marquitaarmstrong399 6 ай бұрын

First time I explored BOM first thought was this is lifted from The Bible.

@Captainmoroni1 3 ай бұрын

Great stuff!! Brilliant!! This guy is a legend!! Thanks Rebecca & Landon!! 🙏🏻💪🏼😮‍💨🤟🏼🤌🏼

@markblanchard2280 6 ай бұрын

I listened to this entire episode with great interest, after following the dr. lundwall episodes in their entirety as well. I've also always been intrigued by Dr Murphy's theories that the Book of Mormon can be sourced to Upstate New York characters and locations, and I will be very interested in reading his full book when it comes out. After listening to this episode I immediately went out and pulled down the copy of David Cusick's history of the five nations to see the alleged connections between it and Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon, just as I had done with View of the Hebrews and the Late War. I was quite disappointed with what I found. The connections, if there are any, are very vague and subject to equally plausible alternative interpretations, such as the "Quetzalcoatl" explanation that true believing Mormons are likely to glom onto. Namely, that the similarities in BoM storyline and these indigenous myths and the visitation of the mysterious pre-columbian lawgiver (Jesus) are due to the fact that they all must derive in twisted form from "true story" that is related in the Book of Mormon. This is not to say that I believe this, on the contrary all I found in Cusick's history were some extremely loosely connected myths that related no more to Nephi and Laman then they did to Romulus and Remus. It took me a tremendous amount of stretching and Imagination to connect what I read in Cusick to anything in the Book of Mormon. If there is a smoking gun hidden in there I sure as heck couldn't find it.

@drtwmurphy 6 ай бұрын

I would encourage everyone to check out Cusick for themselves. I want to clarify that I am not suggesting that Joseph Smith plagiarized Cusick, only that he alluded to some of the stories that are there. I agree that the Quetzalcoatl narrative in Ethan Smith’s 1825 edition of the View of the Hebrews is another possible influence. For a comparison of E. Smith and Cusick with BoM, see my presentation “Quetzalcoatl, Jesus, and the Peacemaker Meet in New York” at last year’s MHA, available on my Academia page.

@drtwmurphy 6 ай бұрын

I don’t think Cusick’s, or any other text, is a “smoking gun.” My assessment is that Joseph Smith is the creative author of the BoM and that he drew broadly for ideas that he synthesized into a novel narrative. Iroquois culture is one place from which he drew, Cusick might have been one of his sources. The BoM mentions Oneida and Flint by name, refers to Iroquois cultural practices such burying weapons of war and represents Christ as a disillusioned Jesus killed by people across the salt water. These references are far more specific and locally grounded than anything in Mesoamerica or the Old World.

@SilentThundersnow 6 ай бұрын

Thank you so much for this comment and your research of the topic! Very valuable!

@jeffkunce8501 7 күн бұрын

@@drtwmurphy Would that also be your response to Lori Taylor's "Joseph Smith + Handsome Lake = Wishful Thinking" blog post? It seems like she's refuting a "smoking gun" connection, while you are pointing out the multitude of potential influences surrounding J Smith in his formative years.

@drtwmurphy 7 күн бұрын

@@jeffkunce8501 I have identified several followers of Handsome Lake that may have interacted with Joseph Smith. While these individuals do not fit all of the details in the Vrooman narrative published by Lori Taylor, they are consistent with other earlier-less detailed-oral traditions connecting Iroquois with Joseph Smith. I think scholars should be more willing to consider these Indigenous narratives, but they need not do so uncritically. Again, there is no “smoking gun” in Cusick or anywhere else. The only place one is going to find a smoking gun is in a straw man.

@marquitaarmstrong399 6 ай бұрын

Now isn't most of The Bible allegorical?