Ep212: Path to Nibbāna - David Johnson

[@ThuPhuong-mj3eu]

David on Guruviking? Finally!!! I love, love, love David! When I first read his book, I thought many of the things sounded too good to be true. But once I tried the practice, I realized it was true. The practice is very joyful, and the results are quick and beyond my wildest dreams. I am eternally grateful to Bhante and David.

[@julianaroh5509]

Ong really I want to try.

[@theunconditioned]

David is a great meditation teacher. TWIM is the greatest discovery of 21st century for many who have walked the path.

[@djamelka1335]

Steve you are a great interviewer ! Bravo. David thank you for sharing you awesome and rich experiences. 🙏

[@bens.4238]

Great interview by Steve as usual. I benefited from reading and incorporating TWIM (in my case it was mostly Bhante V's approach to mindfulness of breathing.), especially the 6rs and the de-emphasis on focusing on a restricted object/over-focusing on an object. However, TWIM people are not the only ones doing that. Some of my main teachers have practiced in the Shwe Oo Min lineage (popularised mostly by U Tejaniya). In this lineage they put a lot of emphasis on relaxing and not over-focusing on an exclusive object, as this tends to involve craving and develop attachment to an object over other objects. The emphasis is on broadening attention, relaxing, and knowing what the mind is doing. Other approaches that have a similar emphasis are Master Sheng Yen's Silent Illumination school of Chan Buddhism. The Thai forest tradition also has similar emphasis.

[@markjohnson543]

I agree with what you write above. I have been fortunate over many decades to study methods that are very similar to TWIM, such as Soto Zen, Dzogchen, and Mahamudra. Wherever I have lived, I find whoever the local Buddhist teachers are, and study with them. While in Sri Lanka, I had the opportunity to do retreat with Bhante Vimalaramsi and study his method as derived from the early Buddhist texts (suttas in the pali tradition). I was not surprised to find that the Buddha's original method, if we assume TWIM to be a reasonable interpretation of those original teachings, is quite similar to the Zen and Dzogchen, etc. methods. There are many flowers in the Buddha's bouquet. The precious emphasis that TWIM has is not merely relaxation, but pacifying the bodily and mental formations. I believe other methods do that as well, and TWIM is particularly clear on that point. The basics of the 6Rs is applicable to any method, and i personally heard Bhante Vimalaramsi advise vipassana meditators at a lecture to just carry on with their meditation but apply the 6Rs to it.

[@jesse67347]

The quote from the interview with Dipa Ma in Tricyle: Q: 'What do you do when you begin to feel irritation or anger?' Dipa Ma: 'Anger is a fire, but I don't feel any heat. It comes and dies right out.' This is not exactly how David describes it, that she has anger but controls it. You can also read it as saying there is no anger anymore for her, because she doesn't feel its heat and it immediately disappears. It depends on how you interpret this quote.

[@thelittlegingie6135]

Tricycle: Do you experience anger at all? Dipa Ma: As soon as it comes, at the very start, I’m aware of it. It doesn’t get any nourishment. Anger cannot arise anymore in Anagami, Dipa Ma aware of it when it comes and did not give any fuel to it (this is control)

[@KRL-the-householder]

But what she describes… is it actually anger or is it just a feeling.

[@ijikayuto2950]

Anger obviously it is her mind and she had high level of mindfulness so she is very aware of just feelings and anger itself. She spoke about anger specifically...

[@KRL-the-householder]

Is it obvious, though? She’s speaking in another language, being translated, and perhaps adapting her use of language for easier understanding. If some unpleasant situation arises, a mental feeling might arise, but if she doesn’t feed it (no craving) and it just dies out on its own… is that a fetter of anger? I would say not. The fetter is the craving, not the feeling

[@ijikayuto2950]

@KRL-the-householder we dont know unless your an anagami yourself or ask dipa directly. Sadly she is long gone. The lord buddha was very clear on what he meant. He said anagamis are free from lust and hatred. I take his wordt above all else for he taught thousands of other anagamis. All agreeing that that is the case. Whh should it be suddenly otherwise?

[@tryI0]

About 10% of people on this podcast seem to claim that everyone else doesn't know what they're talking about 😆. I like the emphasis TWIM has on the relaxation part of 6Rs and that made that part of meditation much more front and center for me for mindfulness, but it wasn't the first or the last time where relaxing your mind(!) for the sake of letting go of craving was a central instruction. Isn't that the point of Shikantanza or Shine or Mahamudra ? Thinking no Vipassana practitioner learns to let go is quite a strange world view.

[@mattmccartney5996]

It's more the nature of the focus of attention that differs. TWIM doesn't take "one-pointed" attention to mean a laser like focus that eventually "becomes one with" the meditation object. This approach suppresses the kilesas and doesn't allow you to decondition them. One-pointed attention in TWIM has a broader focus which is collected around the object of mediation and allows the observation of how the kilesas move the attention of the mind which are then deconditioned using the 6R process. The uprooting of the kilesas is the goal of the practice and suppressing them simply doesn't work.

[@neemnyima2166]

@@mattmccartney5996 It is somewhat sematic, as if you have studied the good texts on Absorption Jhana you identify there is actually a lot of insight in the practice. There is a line between low level absorption (stage 6-9 in the attention revolution, Wallace) and TWIM practice, but it is Very Ambiguous. Because before you reach Jhana Absorption, you are using mindfulness & relaxation to let go of things, and this has an insight quality (Wallace: relaxation is the foundation, continuity the walls and clarity the roof of Absorption Jhana, excitation and laxity must be balanced throughout the practice). I noticed at the start of my last online TWIM retreat, I was getting a bit too attached and aversion-craving-grasping at the state, rather than letting go. And later in the retreat as my dukkha nanna (when I increase the level of engagement with practice the insight nannas start to occur of their own accord, vipassana happens whether I want to or not) had come up and I wasn't able to concentrate with the same ease, I softened and 'let go of grasping on a more subtle level' and progressed more deeply into Collected Jhana. I was able to sustain that a lot more and get those sustained and extend results of NPnNP (3 or 4 in a day), on the last two days. Initially the teacher, was identifying that possibility, but because I understood the practice of absorption, Jhana my feed back and practice was not so distinct, because the distinction is actually very subtle, though the result is different at 1st Jhana in Absorption Practice.

[@pbrninja19]

For me the key innovation of TWIM is that every distraction is an opportunity to apply a technique that will weaken the craving that caused that distraction. As far as I can tell, it works. Bringing back the brahmaviharas again and again is the positive side of right effort, and the 6Rs is the other side of right effort that weakens everything else (craving that causes distraction). It's practical right effort in a procedure that can't get much simpler. This is how you actually calm down the hurricane in the mind.

[@neemnyima2166]

Thanks David and Steve. I find it hard to believe, that other Buddhist paths that investigate grasping and develop either access concentration, collectedness or concentration, even if they may not be as accurate to the Pali Teaching or as easy as TWIM to attain Jhana with, wouldn't see results. I just believe and have experienced that TWIM may be a lot easier for more people at a beginner level like me. That is based on my experience of meditation across different traditions. I've tried and studied the Attention Revolution and Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond and the types of the Insight practice, and they are all quite hard to develop and are prone to obstacles as they advance. I have been stuck in the dukkha nanna and had blocks as a result of insight practice, though in retreat still been able to access Low and or Mid Equanimity. But it wasn't until TWIM the I got an clear insight into NPnNP. It seem like, I may no longer be stuck and there is a possibility to progress to Stream Entry now.

[@guitarsfromhell77]

Please can we have an interview between Delson Armstrong or David Johnson and someone like Beth Upton or Tina Rassmussen? Maybe have Leigh Brasington on the panel as well? I want to see how all these people react under some legitimately precise questioning and examination.

[@markjohnson543]

This is an excellent and important interview. As always, Steve does a great job asking the right questions and then giving the person interviewed space to fully answer. David's story is quite fascinating and his contribution in furthering the original teachings of the Buddha is helpful to so many people. Towards the end of the interview Steve poses the question as to why the original instructions were altered. I would like to offer an explanation that supplements what David talked about. In my book Tranquil Wisdom Insight meditation, I address this topic historically. The section dealing with the original change in meditation from openness to intense concentration is on pages 238-240. In a nutshell, I point out that the Buddha asked the meditator to know that he/she was breathing, but did not instruct people to concentrate on the breath to the exclusion of other sensations, thoughts, etc. Many practitioners might be unhappy with the intrusion of distractions and 'bear down' on the object of meditation by selecting one particular area or sensation related to the breath (for instance, sensation of the flow of breath at the tip of the nose), and by narrowing the focus of concentration were able to keep their mind more completely focused on the object of meditation. By this means, the hindrances (distraction etc.) were naturally suppressed, and this gave rise to deep meditative states, for those who were diligent with the practice. These deep meditative states became very attractive to the Buddhist community. In the literature, this sort of concentration can be seen in a Buddhist work written just a few generations after the passing of the Buddha, the Patisambhidamagga. Then, 900 years later, in the Buddhist work 'The Path of Purity' (Visuddhimagga), the transition to methods of strong concentration was complete. I discuss this in more detail in the chapter on Mindfulness of Breathing. No one disputes that this sort of intense concentration can lead to amazing states of mind and various deep experiences. But does it accomplish the primary task of letting go of craving? Perhaps it works for some people, but there is a tendency towards attempt at control of experience in the methods of intense concentration that the meditator needs be attentive to lest it reinforce craving rather than allaying it.

[@arir9760]

I would also be very interested in a dialogue between David and someone prominent from another tradition, such as Beth Upton. If I’m not mistaken, they would have very different opinions on what jhana is and what concentration level is necessary for practitioners at various stages along the path. I believe they both teach jhana via mettā, among other kasinas in Beth’s case. So the importance of the metta kasina as well as the sutta TWIM comes from and the TWIM perspective on Right Effort would be great to hear them speak on. Also I think they may differ on how to practice vipassana properly, as David says theirs is the only way and Beth has said in a Sit-heads interview about concentration that vipassana can’t even be practiced properly without a minimum level of concentration, a minimum that I believe is much higher than what TWIM requires. I have heard from a TWIM practitioner’s thorough review of a TWIM retreat that jhanas are awarded quite easily for just general elements feeling good. Also would love to hear them discuss what constitutes stream entry. Unless I missed them, David left some details out - also both teachers have expressed having students that have attained nibbana. Another point of interest is that they may feel similar about the “blackouts” - Beth can go further in depth about the “blackouts” than what David mentioned, and can speak on how they are or relate to bhavanga which may be of great importance to many Mahasi noting style practitioners, and could explain why some practitioners in other traditions attain paths without breaking fetters, care for sila, or reducing the arising of the mental “defilements” as they’re sometimes called. I believe David and Beth have the same definition of an arahant, and Beth has told a friend of mine she has not met or heard of a living one, whereas David taught one (Delson). A David and Beth dialogue, or Delson and Beth, could really have great potential to clear up a lot of murkiness for me and I assume a lot of others. Other potential topics of discussion I’ve heard them differ or agree on: The importance of the abhidhamma, the value of the visuddhimagga, the importance of dhamma study along with dhamma practice, the necessity and order of the stages of insight, how to attain the powers and the jhanic skill and sila required to do so, their experiences of rebirth and past AND FUTURE life vision, other beings in other realms and their ability to impact the lives of humans, the existence of a multiverse and life in other planets according to the Buddha’s teachings, what is a kalapa and the method of observing them and the role that plays in attainment, the importance of Dana in a teaching tradition, the importance of renunciation in progress along the path and what that looks like for lay people.

[@lesliepeace]

Where did David say Delson is an arahant? Thanks.

[@arir9760]

I’m not sure if it comes up in this talk, it’s been a while since I listened to it. In other Guru Viking interviews with Delson, such as the one with Delson and Daniel Ingram, it is talked about. And in one of those interviews I believe Delson explains that it was learning the TWIM method from David and practicing with David that lead him to arahantship. Hope this helps.

[@lizzardbrain8142]

Amazing talk!

[@tomidavidson3902]

TWIM really works. 😊

[@phraarenpanyasampanno4743]

Thank you for sharing this 😁 I have just finished reading this book and I am so very excited and inspired. 😁😁😁❤️🙏

[@alamedvav]

It would be good if David shared his wisdom, knowledge and experience with others.

[@OldWolf1933]

Excellent interview, really enjoy the common sense approach of TWIM, would like to hear more from David Johnson.

[@alchemyst2000]

I always find the TWIM interviews and teachers you have here interesting and insightful but the claims to purity of the teachings as the only true teachings of the Buddha rub me the wrong way and rather fundamentalist. But they do still interest me in what they’re discovering in the sutas and how to apply that in practice. The 6rs they talk about bear a striking resemblance to Buddhist dzogchen and Mahamudra practices of resting/relaxing and letting be. I think delson had a little exposure to that but would have been nice to be able to look more into that similarity. But as that’s Mahayana and vajrayana indo-Tibetan lineage no doubt it’s not in line with what they would accept as pure. There was a very detailed explanation of enlightenment by Daniel p. Brown on a podcast w ‘deconstructing yourself’ I think it was. I wish guru Viking could have interviewed Dan. But that entered into non duality and beyond which I don’t know if that’s touched on in TWIM. Similiar in that a Buddha has a Completely purified mind with the flourishing of all positive qualities. From what I understand is the meaning of the word Sangye which is the word for a Buddha in Tibetan.

[@tednation]

I was a student of Dan's for 10 years, and I tend to agree that there is overlap. I think Bhante came at it by a different way in his understanding of the sutta's. Whether or not you question the purity and origination of TWIM, I look at it more that this legitimizes that relaxing/releasing/letting be is essential to the path. As for myself, I know I've done too much efforting and trying that hindered me in my practice. So I appreciate TWIM is available for those more connected to the original Buddha's teachings. And for those that prefer the Mahayana vehicle, that approach is there also.

[@moonmissy]

I agree with you about being rubbed the wrong way by TWIM being a fundamentalist. From my study in Zen and exploration of other traditions in the East, they can have the same experience as Bhante Vimalarasi claimed. Dzogchen is one of them, Chan or Zen is another. Also, the Thai Forest Tradition, with their most prolific meditators, they also practice relaxing Jhanas. It depends more on the depth of practice and study of the individual meditation teachers themselves in any tradition. While I enjoy David's book and recommend his method to some of my Zen students who I find suitable to use. I reject the fundamentalist view that "my path is the only true path." While not all paths are created equal, some are more gradual than others, and many paths lead to cessation and experience of Nibbana. I'm from Vietnam, and while not common, many very good meditating hermit monks living in seclusion exist with prolific skills in meditation and the ability to enter Nirodha for 7 days. Due to government restrictions and limits on Religious practices and foreigners staying in monasteries, it's less well-known in the West and to the public. These meditators live in secluded rural areas where they don't generally speak English or receive outside guests. I enjoyed visiting many of them in my 4 months tour of Vietnam's hermit monastic tradition and listening to them share their experience in 2016, it really opened my eyes. I was lucky enough to make a friend who loves to hang out with hermit monks and knew many of them across the country. He drove me around meeting one after another, visiting one mountain after another. They were from all different Buddhist traditions.

[@markjohnson543]

Vietnam has a great and accomplished tradition of meditators. Thank you for bringing this dharma to the west. May it benefit many, many beings.@@moonmissy

[@user-so6yk1kj2b]

yet another enlightened ego to claim that his teacher and his technique are the only way, everyone else got it wrong and are not actually enlightened. except me, my teacher and few of my buddies of course. dipa ma is just an amateur, while me and my boys know it all, and we really get it. yawn. twim is great, but this fellow still has ways to go. nothing to see here, move along :)

[@Acujeremy]

Is he maybe just claiming the suttas is the best teaching?

[@RobPhillipsYogaMeditation]

Wow. Beautiful stories about Bhante's passing. Such metta and reverence. 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@chefbob67]

Go David!

[@Arahansannihilation]

To all fellow spiritual seekers, I'm seeking a temple a monastery an ashram without the burden of views, rituals or politics, the main goal is the Far Shore. If anyone know such a place please let me know, including the host of this channel.

[@miriamwilcox4123]

❤🙏🏻 thank you

[@salriotailor5534]

Thank you

[@outsaneoutsane2747]

There are some inaccuracies here. Alara kalama taught the buddha ONE of the arupas, not the jhanas up to it. He discovered the first four by himself by remembering his mind as a child

[@SubramanianVelayudhan-cg1bw]

Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu

[@matthewrousseau2982]

Stream entry takes for eva

[@BobTheViking24]

Not necessarily.

[@matthewrousseau2982]

@@BobTheViking24 if you know a quick way . I will listen lol

[@BobTheViking24]

@@matthewrousseau2982Direct self-inquiry and something like a shikantaza/do-nothing practice. For instance, one could do self-inquiry as the off-cushion practice throughout the day anytime one has a spare moment for it, and shikantaza during one's formal sit each morning or evening. Angelo Dilullo has a very clear guidebook to this approach. His book is called Awake: It's Your Turn. That book is intended to get one through that first shift. After that happens, space opens up for a wider variety of inquiry.

[@wiwidity]

Sorry to hear that this gentleman's teacher passed away🙏. Nice talk, but it was not fair to first ask you what is enlightenment (which is in fact ignorant not to say meaningless Q) and then when he took his turn he switched to the word awakening which is very workable term in Buddhist context. That was not skilful or fair. But its all good. Anyway, if someone ask again answer is counterQ: what is not enlightenment?

[@js6271]

What a beautiful story about Bhante's passing. Thank you, David! Much Metta.

[@johngrunhard9939]

Our way is the best way. Give me a break

[@wesleywright3159]

Since David is making such a critical evaluation of the widely taught keystone practice of vipassana, I would be interested in hearing a conversation between David and an experienced practitioner of vipassana who might be able to challenge some of his assertions.

[@RobPhillipsYogaMeditation]

I second this. I have great respect for the TWIM teachers and their methods, but I don't think their method is the only 'true' and effective one.

[@wayneconner2394]

Yeah I agree. Stream entry in vipassana is more than just a momentary "blackout" and I feel he's misrepresenting it based on his personal experience.

[@ezeeproproperties8352]

I'm certain the kind Alan Wallace could🙏 kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4akeHyQbJyKfZI

[@SA-ww1ge]

I love Bhante. Passing at night is a natural way to let go of all the people hanging onto them. They know.

[@tomtillman]

Great interview! Thank you, Steve, for not interrupting David's chain of thought as he related his journey and insights. You are the world's best interviewer! Thank you, David, for your huge, determined contribution at the Dhamma Sukha meditation center. I hope to attend a retreat there in early 2024 or sooner. See you then. 🙏

[@mattmccartney5996]

TWIM -Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation

[@sophiejacobs8803]

This interview single-handedly outlines why I gave up strictly the Vipassana approach of just getting rid of thought. I even went down the route of Internal Family Systems in hopes I could tranquilize parts as thought forms through loving them rather than neglect altogether. Thank you David for a wonderful interview and a path of cessation 🙏.

[@johninman7545]

Zen can lead to break downs. There is a thing called Zen sickness. This thing an be triggered without cause

[@kevinshari8262]

When he says killing , does he mean being a vegetarian?

[@tomtillman]

No. Buddhism does not require one to be a vegetarian.

[@johninman7545]

Who is the authority? No one is right except a Buddha . Krishnamurti didn't make a claim. A Chinese Sutra The Past Vows Of Earth Store Bodhisattva speaks of the Ghost King Great Argument..

[@ishaburger9846]

If I may comment on what is enlightenment : for me enlightenment is the end of the illusion of life , the illusion of being a body and a mind

[@mx.j262]

If you can't get to jhana invent your own jhana and leave the retreat in 4th jhana 😂

[@johninman7545]

This phenomenon is spoken of by Tibetan Buddhist Rain Bows and such

[@amarasirimanatunga2187]

Steve & David thank you both - Theruwan Saranai

[@LasanthaYGarusinghe]

Greetings GV from Sri Lanka!

[@saulgoodman6722]

Vipassana without jhana defeats the whole purpose. You must access the 1st jhana which is the achievement of shamata before freshly reachieving it on vipassana, more specifically on the core of the practice being the Four Close Applications of Mindfulness. Any 1 of the 4 will get you there - stream entry, a precious one who has forever and irreversibly freed themselves from their own inner causes of suffering, and will only be reborn a maximum of 9 lives, and will never ever fall back into the deluded bin of samsaric beings again. This is exactly the why the Buddha left the palace - to discover irreversible freedom from suffering; if it wasn't irreversible, it wasn't satisfactory. And so if you don't achieve shamata first, then it's like Galileo trying to observe celestial phenomena with a dusty telescope that's gyrating all over the place. If one wants to know something, it makes sense that they look at it, for a sustained period of time, with rigor and sophistication. And so in order to achieve something irreversible, one must stabilize their mind first and thereby develop contemplative technology - a telescope of the mind - the capacity to attend to the object of meditation with stability and clarity before probing into the nature of reality by way of contemplative science, which is of course insight meditation, or enquiry (because if there's no element of enquiry, it's not vipassana) meditation whereby one enquires into the nature of things in order to gain experiential insight into same. And so if you've cultivated a serviceable mind, a stable, buoyant, coherent mind with the capacity for sustained voluntary attention (up to at least 4 hours without slipping into dullness (ADD) or distraction (ADHD); if you fully achieve the 1st jhana you can sustain this for 24 hours) before you engage in vipassana practice, the insights that you gain while investigating will completely saturate your mind - your mind will be completely immersed in the new knowledge to the point where it's like light filling a room - the light goes in so deep that the delusions never recover. You can rest in the knowing and familiarize yourself with it. If you haven't achieved shamatha, you can only peck at the surface and never probe the actual depths of anything. As a matter of fact, the Buddha even said that if one hasn't achieved shamata, then they are sick, in debt (unrepayable kind), in bonds, enslaved and lost in a desert track. Now can you imagine a stream enterer (a pure being) in such a tragic situation? Reason being is that if you haven't achieved shamatha (again, access to the 1st jhana, not fully achieving it), you haven't overcome the 5 nivarannas (obscurations as they obscure the natural luminosity of your mind), which are hedonic fixation, anger, ADD, ADHD, and afflictive doubt. So it's the truth that shall set you free. And this is a truth that's not to be merely believed, but known. And so it's the union of shamatha and vipassana that liberates. But no one elucidates these previous topics more eloquently than this great being Alan Wallace🙏 meridian-trust.org/video/288-the-way-of-shamatha-d1s1-b-alan-wallace/

[@PuggiTheGreat]

Agnostic = eel wiggler had me laughing. I've pinched that expression.

[@margheritapagni]

Great interview, but DJ says something that is not tru, i.e. Vipassana does not do jhana practice. It is taught and practiced in all the Vipassana centers I know in the Bay Area. It is mostly introduced in retreats because most people can't get to jhana by sitting at home.

[@johninman7545]

Nirvakalpa Samadhi is the perception of neither thought nor non thought.and the heavens of these

[@anoshya]

Thankyou..words of wisdom..like Ajahn Summedho

[@DT-xx8dy]

with "teachers" like these, who claim that their approach, interpretation and practises are the only true way, while criticising and bellitling others(even dismissing Masters like Dipa Ma) TWIM has very bleak future. Steve conducted this interview masterfully as always, asking pointed questions and then getting out of the way, allowing this guy to completely shoot himself in the foot and expose the depths of his conceit, spiritual ego and ignorance. wonderful!

[@ThuPhuong-mj3eu]

I understand completely where you're coming from because I was in the same place myself. But, I think David just expressed his views and reasoning directly instead of being vague. He did mention that he didn't know for sure and that it takes a Buddha to know. For me, if he hadn't been so straightforward, I wouldn't have tried TWIM, and I imagine I would still be struggling with the way I was practicing before. I understand that it is very hard to accept what TWIM people say when you first approach the practice. I don't know much about David, as I've only had a few email and Telegram conversations with him. From my experience, he seems very light minded, very helpful, and he is one of the least egoistic people I've ever met.

[@tomidavidson3902]

Greetings 💕