The TRUTH About Forgiveness! Game Improvement vs Blade vs Players Distance SLOW SWING SPEED!

[@epgolfstudios]

"I don't fit by handicap" - My famous phrase and this video is one of many demonstrating why I believe that. What did you all think of the forgiveness testing?

[@electricalstuff259]

I'm so glad you've proven this. I'm off 18 and some channels on youtube in the comments section they laugh at me for using Mizuno 221's. I hit them the same as any other club.

[@nomadvehr827]

@@epgolfstudios eye opening. One thing I would like is to test the new Cleveland Halo XL full face irons. This is one subject I have been thinking about: the effect of extending the grooves on the face on forgiveness. In various forums I have enquired apparently it doesn't matter much. But a test could just put the discussion to rest.

[@epgolfstudios]

@nomadvehr827 thanks! And yes it wouldn’t make any difference to forgiveness at all

[@rickggrick778]

@epgolfstudios , I like your forgiveness testing. I'd would have liked you to sum up your conclusion, at the end. There are so many variables, eg different swing speeds 65 / 70 / 75 / 80, and while exhaustive testing would be frankly exhausting... maybe the hot metal would work better at 65?? Maybe the hot metal works better with a senior shaft? Maybe the hot metal, with a fatter sole, protects more against fats? I am hoping that your experience would inform us beyond the base data. That is, would you recommend a 70mph swing speed should try the blades first and ensure they are looking at SD over max distance?

[@epgolfstudios]

Firstly I’d never really recommend anyone play blades tbh, this test is more for extreme testing. The reality is swing speed will make virtually no difference to the forgiveness element, and generally speaking the slower you swing it the more loft you want. So at a slower speed I certainly wouldn’t recommend the hot metal pro as really is the basis of this video, slow speed and strong lofts don’t mix well. Shafts make virtually no difference to launch and spin so shafts wouldn’t come into my thought process when trying to find the right flight characteristics for a player. So I do get your points but the reality is there would be zero difference in testing at different speeds with different shafts, so it’s a bit pointless in all honesty. In terms of strictly performance speed does come into it but how you deliver the club is more important, so I can’t guide anyone when it comes to that because I have no idea how you deliver the club, swing speed is only a very small part of the equation. The reality is these videos are guides and things to be aware of, if you want what suits you best there is only one way of finding that out and that’s going and getting fitted properly and in depth testing 👌👍

[@SteveSmith-zz4ih]

Yours and "Ask Golf Nut" are the best YT channel for golf club reviews and small tips to help our game, Well done and keep up the great work.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Steve 👍 I'll have to take a proper look at his stuff, people speak quite highly of it which is brilliant 👌

[@AskGolfNut]

Thanks for the mention, a lot of work goes into creating Forgiveness based testing and all the editing of the graphics required to illustrate how a club realistically performs from off centre hits. I'm glad that viewers of this channel and my own AskGolfNut channel enjoy watching multiple swing speed forgiveness tests 👍

[@timcali9770]

I like the scientific method you incorporated!! Nice job

[@epgolfstudios]

Thank you Tim! We appreciate the support :)

[@BobbersInWisconsin]

As a slower swing speed golfer this is a very welcome video. Loved all the data and I'd enjoy more of these to help those of us who swing slow to evaluated shafts, drivers, hybrids, etc. Thank you very much.

[@gjun72]

This has made me feel so much better knowing that I seem to be carrying distances I “should” be based on my slow swing speed. It also gives me freedom of choices that I do not have to go with game improvement irons based on swing speed.

[@TenPester]

Your test was a great indicator of how a constant delivery can yield good results with either club. I think that's where a lot of people develop their hatred for blades, and those who use them. They have a minor spell with them, hit a few bad shots because they show up a bad swing, and their friends slag them off or they get embarrassed at the range, so bin them very quicky. Those who have the patience to stick with it, develop a smoother tempo, and a more consistent delivery. The main variable is the Golfer. A bad delivery is bad no matter the club.

[@TenPester]

a lot of golfers buy used, and have absolutely no idea how that set was made up. They lie angles on forged irons are never correct, even from new (factory tolerances), and the swing weight could be off. They throw on their favourite MCC +4 midsize and suddenly hate the club because they shifted the swing weight. Or the previous fitter fitted brass inserts and the head is a tad heavier, but the golfer rips off the MCC grips and fires on a standard set of Karmas or cheap knock offs. But they blame the head and go round telling everyone that "Those X blades are rubbish" - I think swing weight, balance and feel of a club in dead weight and swing are more important than forgiveness as when you put a well balanced club into the hands of a competent golfer, they excel with it.

[@adrianlovett3483]

I think the point is you can hit the hot metal further with the same shaft length. You still get decent height . The reason the clubs are forgiving is that it’s easier to hit a club with a shorter shaft. So a high handicapper plays better with game improvement clubs because they are using shorter shafts to get longer distances. They are more likely to hit the green with a 7 iron hot metal than a 5 or 6 iron blade.

[@ssb9388]

Great video! Your tests and honesty reveal true comparisons. I’m sure the brands aren’t happy that you are differentiating between performance and marketing. I wish you were in the states. Unfortunately I feel most fitters are interested in selling the customer on the latest and greatest products. And I am tired of hearing handicap or club head speed determine what equipment is acceptable to the player. Keep up the good work!

[@epgolfstudios]

I am also tired of hearing that 😂 so yeah we try and be open honest and just go for data backed tests, you can’t argue with data. And yeah you’re absolutely right, places want to sell you the latest and greatest because they want to make money. We miss out on a lot of money through being honest which can be a bitter pill to swallow at times but we’ve got a great rep and get a lot of repeat business because of it.

[@Pointmikecalibre]

Really great video and very eye opening. However, I would have liked to have seen a sort of "conclusion" piece where using the data you gathered produced an average percentage of drop off from each club on each strike pattern. for exampled: " there was an average with the 241 of x% drop off when hit out of the toe compared to out of the centre". something like that really would show how merky or clear cut the results are.

[@edge21str]

Actually shocked you're not at over 100k subs. Really good testing content. It'll pay off eventually, I'm sure.

[@zahimiibrahim3602]

Agreed he is one of the best in YT when it comes to equiipment tests. I subbed of course and hope others will too because he deserves it.

[@jim60631]

Unfortunately, most equipment channels don't have the following they should. However this one is one of the best for sure.

[@themcguires3562]

Yes subscribed and like. Good test!

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks all, really appreciate the support 👍☺️

[@adyseven1]

First time visitor. Have just subscribed. Great content and presentation 👏 Looking forward to catching up with your previous work.

[@mozzaday]

Thanks - just about to swap my Rogue ST Pros for Apex CB/MB combo and you've just reinforced by decision (although I'm strengthening them a couple of degrees). Looking forward to getting back to blades and the challenge that comes with it!

[@skunkwerksxd]

Thanks for taking the time to show all data, interesting video.

[@davewalker5387]

This is gold for me Ross as it you're on my exact mark for slow swing speeds. The data suggests that forgiveness is marginal and so in my mind, I just need to find the right clubs for me that I'd be confident hitting. Thank you so much for this video - really gives me the data to compare my exact game (8.2H) and see how a good player hitting these clubs slowly, measures up.

[@epgolfstudios]

Great stuff Dave, remember swing speed is still only a small part of the equation when weighing up the right fit. So still get fitted would say unless you are very familiar with how you deliver the club. But at that speed I would always recommend more loft. Less loft is generally terrible unless you have a very scoopy delivery

[@andyd_9]

Thanks for another great video! Just about perfect with my swing speed with a 7 iron...my 7 iron is an old blade 35 degrees of loft...same carry distance 130ish depending on the strike. I have been thinking of players distance iron but ca't get over the large head after playing blades most of my golfing life. The 245 looks like a good option to add to my list of irons when I get fit.

[@nomadvehr827]

@@andyd_9 If you're in the States or Canada you might consider Maltby, Haywood or Sub70 budget wise. If money is no concern, then knock yourself out!

[@mr2fyre]

You should have put the hot metal high launch in, since it is designed for the lower swing speeds.

[@epgolfstudios]

That wasn't the point of this test, but you're absolutely right it is a better head for slower swing speeds. We have done a full review and test of the whole JPX 925 line up 👍

[@jasonstelter2959]

Thank you for the test. I have a set of Mizuno MP59’s that I used when I played a lot more often. After a long break from golf I tried GI cavity back irons. Terrific ball speed, but way too much height and yardage gaps were terrible. Bunched up in the longer clubs and too far apart below 7 iron. I tried the Mizunos and hit the 7 iron just as far even though it was six degrees weaker. Ball flight was a lot more ideal. I’m looking to upgrading to the MP243’s to get better gaps in the longer clubs and couldn’t shake the idea of giving up forgiveness. I’ll prioritize ball flight and gaps. This test validates my experience that “players” irons aren’t that unforgiving.

[@epgolfstudios]

Absolutely agree with all of that Jason. Again it just comes down to playing what suits you best. But you make great points about the gapping. I feel GI irons are terrible for this

[@clementwoods7177]

Pretty much the same with me. I’ve got a set of even older MP57’s and decided will treat myself to a new set next time I break 80, but started doing my research and realised most of the irons are just 1-2 clubs stronger, so would probably need to reconfigure my wedges, so not sure now. The current plan is to see what the specs of the 925 tours are when they come out in the New Year.

[@GolfGuyReviews]

What a great video Ross! I’m not sure if you’ve done it already, but perhaps a video idea could be to do the same test comparing 10 year old irons with their modern equivalent…maybe I’ll just do that video myself, and you can do it better 🤣👍

[@epgolfstudios]

Or why don't you come on the channel and do it? More than happy to have you on mate and it's a good idea 👍

[@TheNicP74]

Great video Ross. I think a bad swing is a bad swing. Poor delivery is going to end up with a poor result regardless of the club. Getting fitted for a club that suits your swing is going to give best results in the long run.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Nic! And yeah absolutely agree. A lot of people let the marketing get in their head, hit a couple of bad shots and write it off as being too unforgiving, when really this isn't the case when you really look at the data. And yeah completely mate. Getting fitted properly is the way forward for every golfer 🙌👌

[@hoganfan2006]

Been waiting for this video!

[@petegalindez9961]

Great review! Glad someone did something like this…I’ve found similar results after testing similar clubs…I had a set of the JPX923 HMPs, the 241s, and the 243s…I kept the 243s as a good in between…my 7 iron swing is around 82mph…I didn’t find the forgiveness much different across them, though when you really hot a hold of the HMPs you got insane distance..didn’t like the variability front to back…LOVED the 241s, but wanted a little more distance. Forgiveness wasn’t a factor for me…

[@jackedge5681]

Another fantastic video Ross, keep up the good work 👏🏼 the best UK channel for detailed reviews

[@epgolfstudios]

@@jackedge5681 thanks Jack appreciate that bud 👍

[@pabbagolf]

Subscribed! Great channel!

[@jaredlamb9743]

I actually purchased a set of used Wilson Dynapower Irons as an upgrade to my 1995 Lynx Black Cat irons. I only learned the day after I purchased them, that they are a Game Improvement iron. Luckily I was able to hit a different game improvement 7i on a simulator. The results were very odd. With my Lynx my 7i almost consistently carried +160yds. +/-5yds. With the Game Improvement I was hitting between 200yds-150yds. Quickly realized a Game Improvement iron is just a juiced hotspot with crazy inconsistency. Im sending back the Wilson and looking into purchasing a set of Takomo 101T's.

[@ryanainsworth630]

just adding a comment for the algorithms... everyone else should like and comment on every video they take the time to watch.

[@epgolfstudios]

@@ryanainsworth630 appreciate that Ryan 👍👍

[@aspencer09]

Great video as always! Around 85mph with a 7 iron, and 105 with driver would be a good speed for me to watch 🤭👍🏻 Will come for a fitting in the new year when all the new stuff is in

[@Ganache30]

Great video. What about the HL version of the HM?

[@justusroloff8209]

Summary with all the stats distance lost etc would be really helpful. There was a lot of numbers to remember

[@hoganfan2006]

I believe turf integration is key. That, and launch and spin like you said, Ross.

[@raroca23]

The most interesting analysis about iron type forgiveness.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks 🙏

[@golfbiker]

Great idea for a video, and excellent execution. Really makes me think about marketing vs real world data. As a relatively new 21 H.I. golfer, I like the idea of a better ball flight & descent to stick the greens and don't mind giving up some distance but was concerned about the "forgiveness". What is clear to me from this test - and my own observation as my swing and strike improve - is that "forgiveness" is mostly a marketing term, and getting good instruction and improving delivery are the most important. So maybe my next clubs will be blades or CBs!

[@canyonaro]

Don't be too quick to judge that. AskGolfNut does some great testing, including heat maps. No question a lot of "player's distance" clubs aren't that forgiving but there are clubs out there that are WAY more forgiving than blades. The big takeaway of this test is that you don't want strong lofts if you have a slow swing speed.

[@drmdr1]

Man I love your videos!! Just chalk full of useful information! One question though, if the only thing that really matters is loft then please compare loft vs loft in game improvement irons 9 iron vs blades 7 iron so we can see the difference. Absolutely love your videos!

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks! And yes that video will be coming but I'll do 7 vs 5 to make it even more interesting

[@bwmillworkinc.9496]

@@epgolfstudios Really looking forward to this, would love to see 5 iron 241 vs. an equivalent 7 in game improvement. If you felt like mixing up brands seeing a Wilson Staff model blade vs. an equivalent 7 would be great too.

[@paulhuk2748]

Great show Ross, I'm off to see Alex at orka this week for a fitting nice to have this information beforehand to for that better experience, and your better than a robot, keep them coming mate.

[@epgolfstudios]

Not sure I'm better than a robot 😂😂 but I try my best and appreciate the comment. All the best at the fitting, hope it goes well 👍

[@ajhd95]

I see you found his deal too! Hope you get on well mate, myself and my brother are getting fit in January

[@MicD1]

Subbed mate. I’ve been gaming Ping G400 which got me to 15 (from beginning) but not sure if want a blade-like set. They do look much nicer though, wish you were in Australia

[@andrewkendall7018]

I recently bought some Apex CB Irons I am way more accurate with them and the front to back dispersion is so much better than with anything else I have used in my 20 years golfing. When I miss the middle I can feel where the miss is and I come up short but not severely so. I play off around 10 and swing Driver around 95 mph.

[@epgolfstudios]

That's great, seems like you've found a good set of irons for you 🙌 and yeah most people are surprised about the 'forgiveness' that you get even out of a more players type of iron. And I agree front to back will always be better on a more traditional iron loft and design 💣

[@spodbw1]

Class this mate. I'm using darkspeed irons and seriously thinking about a forge tec upgrade

[@cardi1978]

I’ve just switched from Darkspeed to Dynapower forged and the difference in ball flight and descent angle is night and day. And the feel wow. Can actually tell where on the face I’ve hit it 😂😂

[@spodbw1]

Did you lose much distance?

[@cardi1978]

@ distance isn't the issue for me. You have to look at loft rather than the number on the club imo. A 27 degree 7 iron isnt really a 7 iron. My 7 went 175 but came in like a piss missile. My 7 (31.5) now comes in at a much better angle but about 165. Front to back is much better, stopping power is much better, gapping is better. I have 3-5 degrees difference by club in my bag top to bottom and I've gained so much more consistency. The dark speed would go 160 or 190 without me even knowing why 😂😂😂

[@spodbw1]

😂😂 thats true, mine do that.

[@martynmurfitt-wrather7555]

So really my thoughts of changing from T150 to 245 pro on the idea the drop off on mis-hits would be less are unfounded & it is all down to my crap swing (and the inability to find a coach who can fix it)!

[@cdh79]

Great video, I like how you present and go into those details.. just some advice: when comparing the drop off, I think you shouldn't compare absolute yardage between the clubs, but go by percentage.. those lofts are a bit too different to compare absolute yardage.. still, definitely worth a subscription ;)

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks appreciate the sub 🙌👍 well I was just comparing the yardage drop off relative to the best shot that we hit with each club. Which I think is a fair way to do it. But either way it doesn't really matter. The moral of the story is there is pretty much nothing in it 😂👌

[@mcnillerandsons7906]

I did this test on my Bushnell Launch Pro with a Mizuno Blade, PXG Players, and Ping G400 at the same loft. Results are almost identical with each for me. Forgiveness is a myth. Shank is a shank. Play what you love. The biggest difference I find is blades have tighter dispersion on identical swings where fatter clubs had more variance.

[@epgolfstudios]

Well I think you mention loft there and that really is the biggest part of getting an iron set that fits you correctly. Making sure the lofts throughout the iron set optimize, height, descent angle, and distance while maintaining proper gapping. That's the one issue with game improvement irons. For most people they only tick the distance box. And for some they don't even do that.

[@mcnillerandsons7906]

@@epgolfstudios well said. I recently swapped up Miura KM-700 and have been enjoying the more traditional loft. Just need to get over my ego that my 33 degree 7i isn’t going to go as far as my 28.5 degree 7i used to.

[@epgolfstudios]

@@mcnillerandsons7906 yeah for some it can be a hard pill to swallow but best way is just to write down the yardages and then figure out the club that gives you the best ball flight for that yardage. Doesn't matter if it says 7 on it or 5 on it or if it's a hybrid or fairway wood. Just play what gives you overall the best performance 👌👍

[@roadtoscratchgolf3481]

@@epgolfstudioscould not agree more. That’s why it’s silly to ask another golfer what club they just hit, because you don’t know their lofts or distance they hit each club. Know your carry and play your game. Your competition is not the other players unless it’s Match Play, otherwise, it’s the course. Cheers.

[@robertszakacs8541]

Great content! Loved seeing the miss hits and how they were affected. I’ve watched countless videos of iron fittings and comparison videos but this is the first time I’ve seen someone show the miss hits and quantify them. It is very interesting to see they are all basically the same in forgiveness from a front to back perspective. I know you said you are not a robot and that’s why it’s harder to tell the left to right dispersion. But do you think there’s any significant difference in these three from left to right forgiveness?

[@jamesclark7630]

I’m a 15 handicap with 81 MPH 7 iron and a bit of a nut when it comes to trying different iron sets. I have used them all. By far my keeper set is a set of old Mizuno MP-30 half cavity MB blade. With those in hand I pure more shots and have better scores than with any other set. I lose about a club length compared to players distance but that’s okay. And the feel is phenomenal. I’ve given up on trying to find a better iron, once I bend the 5 iron a degree stronger they will be perfect in gapping 5-PW.

[@oolaspalmas]

That is exactly what I found out when Changed my TM P790 irons to Wilson staff model CB irons. Superior feel, exceptional distance control and tighter dispersion. Lost about 1 club length In distance but gapping is what really matter not what number is stamped on club. Next set is going to be blade for me for even better feel and control.

[@gwendolynpugh2574]

Great video. You addressed a direct question that I have. Thanks.

[@epgolfstudios]

No worries at all glad it helped 👌

[@k1llwizzy]

Id love to see him just testing 5 diffrent 7 irons that have various lofts like QI10 HL, QI10, Dynapowers, and then toss in some wildcard like an Inesis.

[@MrKennydoo]

Do more of these test especially with Titleist

[@jdiggitty]

Really interesting video for me. I've been playing the Miz 923s all year and have been improving my striking a lot. I'd love to see something like this on front to back dispersion between them. (I feel like I'm getting fliers and duds with the 923s sometimes)

[@01devilboy]

Very interesting results I can't use game improvement just can't control distance out of interest ho would this compare once you get into the realy lower lofts for slow swing speeds I'm not a slow swing player just interested that all

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah you just wouldn't. Even if someone at a slower swing speed wanted to play those sort of irons I'd say probably stop a 7 iron. Maybe 6 iron at a real push. Ball flight would just get so low that at a certain point you'd actually start to lose distance. Like your 6 iron would actually be going further than the 5 because they just wouldn't be able to get enough height to get the correct carry. And the ball flight would just be so low you'd never stop it on a green. So hybrids or fairways instead of long irons would be the way forward. But personally I'd never recommend a slow swing speed to play strong lofted irons, unless they added a lot of loft at impact.

[@01devilboy]

@epgolfstudios thanks boss brilliant ancer

[@epgolfstudios]

🫡

[@mondotv4216]

While you've established with data the difference is about 8 - 10% from the baseline I would say despite the slow swing speed you're still bang on plane. A lot of high handicap golfers are much steeper and a bit over the top - or they're trying to scoop the ball up in the air. I think the scoopers are what game improvement irons were designed for because the have less dynamic loft, so the reduced loft works for them.

[@epgolfstudios]

Exactly right. But even low swing speed “scoopers” still do benefit from more loft. Same answer as always really isn’t it. Go get fitted 👌

[@hbyrdut]

Great test! I'm curious how launch angle, decent angle and spin would have compared if you would have switched clubs to hit the same distance.

[@epgolfstudios]

This test will be coming soon 👍

[@jm_puma]

@@epgolfstudiosFantastic idea guys. “The other side of the coin” with carry distance fixed rather than the outcome you’ll show us how the tech “does” to o get you there and what lofts and flight characteristics each club does. Perhaps fittings should be done like that. Find a “reasonable/optimal” distance and then change clubs and specs to hit it and choose the best flight/forgiveness rate for it. That I’ve never seen before you’ll be breaking ground mate

[@epgolfstudios]

Absolutely agree mate. Does get my mind wandering that does. Would love to be able to offer a fitting service like that. Almost fit individually for each club to a certain extent regardless of what it is. It's all about the performance and the outcome. I try and do it the best I can at the moment but the unfortunate reality is we just don't have the money to do that, we can't afford to. If I did that I'd go out of business at the moment without question. Unless I put my fitting fees up a lot but most wouldn't understand why or be willing to pay it. So as we grow and the brand grows I will have more opportunities to grow and evolve the business. But it's been a hard lesson these past few years of starting and running this business. It's extremely tough to do it at the base level and make any sort of money at all. We still dont make much money. So start talking about spending another 50k on fitting equipment and you quickly find yourself in a very bad spot.

[@X5OWL]

For me it’s the hand sting factor that many of us struggle with, thin a blade and your hand fizzes for 5 minutes whereas a hollow body or GI feels less harsh and allows you to carry on. So my takeaway is peak height and land angle should dictate your iron choice?

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah that is actually one of the most reasonable points that's been made on any of these types of videos 👍 the 'feedback' through a blade would certainly be harsher. And yes absolutely right. You need to get the right loft to ensure the best ball flight, best land angle, and best distance all while maintaining proper gapping throughout the set. That is always the goal.

[@matthewthompson6329]

Fit graphite shafts, problem solved. I personally play 241 with fujikura axiom shafts. Miss hit vibration gonzo 🎉

[@X5OWL]

@ one to test Ross!

[@epgolfstudios]

Absolutely

[@electricalstuff259]

But you can also tell much more easily where you missed it. GI irons mask your errors.

[@bpak510]

Great video, like always.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks bpak 👊

[@edge21str]

Kind of wild. I know the sample size wasn't huge but it seems the blade and the player's distance are very comparable in forgiveness. Both lose around 15% carry off a toe strike and around 10% off the heel. The super GI seems to be around 10% of the toe and around 7% off the heel. I also think in a real scenario on the course, a lot of less experienced players will struggle with bottom point control and early release, so you'll see a lot of shots that bottom out before the ball resulting in fats and thins. The wider soles on the SGI irons should also help with fat shots, by gliding along the turf more rather than digging in

[@jalalalap-akalala]

Would love to see a loft to loft comparison. Realistically you would select the club by carry not iron number

[@epgolfstudios]

That will be coming 👍 but really this was more of a case of forgiveness rather than distance in this test

[@thomasleonard1361]

It still matters. Carry v carry will show a bigger difference on mishits. The higher lofted club will be less affected, so that is a variable you need to remove. If i am playing a 140 yard hole, i dont care what the number on the iron is. So for the 140 yard carry, which club will give me the most forgiveness? The game improvement 8 iron or the blade 7 iton? Thats what matters.

[@MitchGrinter]

I changed from Mizuno 919s to TM P7MCs and honestly wouldn't look back. I think as this video shows, a bad shot is a bad shot regardless of the club. Maybe there's a couple mm of more functional shots in the middle of the face but for me, my poor shots with the player's distance clubs still came up short, but my good strikes were prone to the odd ball coming off like a rocket and leaving me dead behind the green. The blades have had a way tighter dispersion and the more immediate feel helps me self-diagnose on the fly if I'm striking it away from the middle.

[@jameshodges8239]

Do you think the different sole widths, could influence the strike pattern at different speeds?

[@epgolfstudios]

Maybe fractionally but for most amateur golfers you wouldn't be able to tell how much or what it's actually doing to any consistent level imo

[@jameshodges8239]

Ok thanks

[@Kringlan84]

Don't move the flag to match the loft, change the club to match the distance. That is the concideration relevant for people on the course. Noone would go "I have a 7 iron to to the pin with the blades I'm playing. If only I had a game improvement 7 iron going 10 yds past the hole, then I'd use that".

[@duncanjones2404]

Great vid. Does the forgiveness change as speed increases? Say 90mph or more for a 7 iron?

[@colinp4541]

I would have liked to see an overlay of dispersion between the clubs for toe and heal strikes. I know you are not a robot, but it might show and could be the difference between the clubs.

[@epgolfstudios]

Dispersion is still all down to me dude. The toe and heel strikes with every model went straight when I delivered a square face. Honestly there would be zero difference between these clubs in dispersion on mishits. That’s 100% player 🤙

[@colinp4541]

@@epgolfstudios Okay dude, but I am a high handicapper as probably most of the people watching this video are. Your video has the word "Truth" in it. It is hardly the truth if you don't cover dispersion, the most important part of a forgiveness iron. Like all high handicappers I mis hit too much and want to know the "Truth", "how much are they likely to help me", in other words how forgiving are they. Yardage loss is the lesser part of the equation, I think we can all guess we would lose some yardage from toe and heal strikes. Dispersion is the biggest part and the main reason for buying forgiveness irons and not possible to guess. Please take the word "Truth" out of the title or add the word "Distance". This video has nothing to do with forgiveness irons main purpose which is dispersion.

[@JDSFLA]

Most people don't have your swing speed, but most also have more than 70 mph used in this test. I feel this test would have had more relevance to the most golfers with 80 mph as the test speed. If you are at 70 mph, I would not recommend any of the heads in this test, but instead the Cleveland Halo XL or similar from other brands.

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah I've done plenty at my swing speed and quite a lot at 80/75 so decided to make more of a point and do it at a slow speed. It doesn't really matter too much because delivery is always more important than swing speed but it does the same thing, just opens people's eyes and gets them thinking a little bit more about what irons they maybe should be looking at, or at least get them to think about getting a fitting. I'm never telling people what they should be buying as it's impossible, it's just getting people to think differently and not be confused by marketing. But yeah absolutely they would be good for slower speed that needs help with launch. Id almost call them more hybrids than irons 😂 but definitely would give that sort of player good numbers.

[@MichaelFraser72]

Really interesting video - thanks

[@thomasleonard1361]

I dont mean to be too critical, your content is top shelf. But a better comparison for forgiveness would be distance v distance, not 7i v 7i. If the swing speed is held constant, who cares what 7i (a) does vs 7i (b). The question is, for the 80 mph swing speed 7i, what would the equivalent 8i speed be, and then compare forgiveness numbers. I would expect a club with less loft to be less forgiving, all else being equal. This way, you could evaluate on percentages, not raw yardage, which again, adds variables.

[@GOLFADDICT65]

awesome video well done i am looking for new irons I had stealths with regular ventus red graphite shafts and loved them but after 400 rounds in 3 seasons I am ready for some new irons i am about to be 60 years old 5'6 and handicap of 8-10 and trying to choose between Taylormade Qi10 / HL or PXG Black Ops or Cobra Darkspeed irons i am lookin for feel / distance / forgiveness / spin / height your thoughts ? which shaft you think might work KBS Max 65 / Tensei Blue / UST Nanacore 60 or is there another you like ? I am unable to get fitted or go hit any balls I pretty much have my stats of 78-82 mph on my 7 irons swing speed Lie 1 degree up length 37 inches driver is 90-94 mph I am open to all advice and thoughts thx in advance cheers from Canada

[@chipnorris2504]

You have a great channel. Just discovered it

[@epgolfstudios]

Thank you 👍

[@anthonyfarmer8387]

I Love what you do (and am a subscriber) BUT in this case I am not sure you are representing forgiveness for a slow swing mid or high hcp golfer. To me most important is do I know my carry distance and do i hit that pretty consistently. Overall distance is of lesser important. So, if I have 140 yds to the flag (assuming no wind, no slope) that’s my 7 iron. So, if I have a blade, perhaps it’s a 6 iron but the question is how consistently do I hit that blade 6 iron vs my players distance iron 7 (as a mid hcp 67 yr old) i.e. do i hit the blade poorly more frequently than my players distance iron so suffer the drop-offs more? You can’t replicate that because you are a good golfer who is so good he can also swing at 70mph. But, if I was in the UK and could come to you for a fitting, I am sure you would help me select the right clubs for me be it blade, distance or game improvement. MY CONCLUSION: it’s not about the type of club but rather being fit for the club which best suits the swing and playing conditions. Unfortunately, i don’t have an EP near me!😊

[@braincramp1000]

Well done! At age 72 I've always said, I can shoot 80 blades or SGI Irons. I can also shoot 90 with either.

[@Tognar]

A few variables that this test ignores. 1. Turf interaction. More forgiving clubs have wider soles and more bounce help with digging. Hitting off artificial turf minimizes penalty for fat strikes. 2. Squaring the face. As you move towards game-improvement, there’s going to be more help with internal weighting to get the club squared and turning over thru the ball. High index players struggle with squaring up. 3. Hot spots. I can’t explain how this happens because it seems random, but you can get these wild hot strikes on game improvement irons that go miles past your normal range.

[@epgolfstudios]

Can’t really test turf interaction indoors. In all honesty it would be extremely hard to test outdoors! I think the honest reality of that how much difference would it actually make to the vast majority of golfers? Not much at all. For a very small percentage it might a little bit. But from what I’ve tested and seen i really don’t think it matters that much. Yeah squaring the face is slightly easier, I do mention this in the data section. But again for the vast majority of golfers it’s a very marginal thing. There’s definitely no hot spots. That’s just golfers inconsistent strike and delivery, with a few other variables chucked in there such as moisture, grass, dirt, anything that create less friction between club and ball. It will happen with every club but one thing I will say is when you start at a point of already low spin, like you would with a GI iron, the spin will drop very low which will create greater distance jumps when all of those variables align. Just another reason front to back on a GI iron is worse.

[@Tognar]

@ It’s fascinating results. I just think you’re too good at being bad. LOL. What would happen if you did this test with a high handicapper?

[@raymondbooth3189]

Great job mate although I must admit I like the look of a thicker top line.....I don't think you would enjoy my Callaway big Bertha's from 94😂 nice to see a test with the older classics though against the latest and greatest.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Raymond 👍 and yeah I think you might be right there 😅 although saying that people say about how much clubs have come on....I think some testing is in order 👀👀

[@barryhill6482]

The feel of the iron is my big deal. If the 245 feels better than the hot metal, which I would imagine is true, I’d go with the 245. The 241 might hurt the hands in mis-hits. I’m actually looking at the 245 for my new clubs. Still hitting JPX 900 Forged set and still like-’em!

[@robert896r1]

Interesting that toe shots on irons seem more damaging to distance than heel shots while it seems the opposite on drivers and other woods

[@epgolfstudios]

Absolutely, although to give my opinion on that, you can't shank a driver but you can shank an iron 😂 20mm+ on a heel strike with an iron is a shank. You can hit it off the face on a toe strike and it still goes somewhat forward. But yes absolutely right the toe on woods is very good and the heel is horrific. That certainly doesn't seem as bad on irons for sure.

[@PepeSylvia36]

Just my opinion, i would have been more interested in seeing the data and dispersions if the lofts were matched across the irons. I’m aware this may have meant a 9 iron in the GI and an 8 in the blade.

[@epgolfstudios]

This will be coming soon 👍 but in a fair test of forgiveness having different shaft lengths and different head weights would be less fair IMO. And dispersion is like 98% player in my honest opinion

[@wnfakind9197]

If you want a good looking game improvement iron the Hot Metal Pro is the best hands down

[@jdramirez77]

I have a set of taylormade firesole irons... and my concern is that if I were to buy new clubs, they wouldn't be appreciably better than what I already have. Weights in the sole... perimeter weighting... so much of the tech seems like they are just repackaging the same tech from 20 years ago.

[@philipp8185]

Hi, great content! Thumbs up and one more subscriber. I´ve been to a fitting but without any good results for me. As I’m trying to improve my game with lessons and training two times a week, I would like to get some new irons for Christmas. Would you recommend a Mizuno Pro 245 / Ping I 530 / Titleist T 200 for a 40 year old, 25 HC, 70 mph swing speed golfer? I do know what shaft I prefer, but I´m not certain what clubhead would help me the most for the next couple of years. Due to my slow swing speed, I´m struggling with an acceptable descent angle. As I understand your content, a game improvement iron would not be the best choice, and there is more control of the golf ball?

[@epgolfstudios]

Hey Philipp, brilliant many thanks for the support. And the honest answer is I don't know. It really comes down to how you deliver the club into impact, this is actually far more important than your swing speed and you'd handicap. But if you struggle with stopping the ball on the green then I would say go to an iron with more loft. An iron that I love for slower speeds is the P770. Looks and feels great, launches well and spins well. As forgiving as anything else out there and doesn't feel too bad on the mishits either. So definitely try that 👍

[@paulaskey1508]

I wonder how this would have looked with the JPX 925 HL ? 32 degrees of loft but ultra forgiving ?

[@freddym6643]

On this topic, why do you think so many Titleist players go with the 620MB or versions of it in the 6-9 irons, rather than the T100? Quite a consistent trend among top titleist players, Ludvig being an exception

[@pabbagolf]

16:34 I would really like to see the same test but based on loft not club number and compare results from there. 🤓

[@epgolfstudios]

We’ve done that, you can find it on our channel 👍

[@lychyrychy]

love it man thank you !

[@rossh5416]

Where is the link??

[@juancarlosmaeso8350]

Diversification is a prerequisite for marketing. And marketing is a prerequisite for sales. GI, SGI, UGI irons can’t overturned the fact that the ball has the same diameter, as the clubhead has the same sweet spot size. Of course, there could be variations on MOI that could add some help with the outcome of a non perfect shot, but marginally. From my point of view, first priority is to play an iron you enjoy staring at it, and feeling it’s impact. This encourages the chain reaction you need to play good golf (shot planning -attention - execution)

[@epgolfstudios]

Good way of putting it 👍 and yes I do agree but for me the best places to start is the right lofted set (through the whole set) to optimise both distance and control for the way you deliver the club

[@dennissmith1904]

Great video. I play traditional lofted cavity backs and have weakened them by 2⁰ to achieve height and descent I want. Swing speed with 7 low 80s. Did not lose any distance. I see too many with slower swings coming out of box stores with these strong lofted irons.

[@epgolfstudios]

@@dennissmith1904 couldn't agree more 👍👍

[@Pud56]

It will be interesting when Bryson starts selling his irons with roll and bulge, not dissimilar to the Eleven hybrids which already have that assistance.

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah I think with his speed it may make a bit of a tangible difference. I'm not sure for most amateurs especially slower seeing speed. Will be interesting to see if we could quantify if it actually does anything for average golfers.

[@jameshodges8239]

Pls can you do the same tests with 80mph and 90 mph.

[@epgolfstudios]

Maybe later on down the line but in all my equipment tests I always do this (test heel and toe for drop off) so even at 80-90 mph it would be the same thing i.e the drop off between models would be virtually the same

[@jameshodges8239]

Actually, i was just wondering what the carry distances should be. Either way I look forward to more great content. 👍

[@knudson6769]

What graphite shaft would you use for 80-85 mph swing speed? Modus 120 stiff currently, but lots of hand pain. Thanks!

[@benpierce2202]

Lordy... there was a HUGE size difference between the player's and the blade. I don't think it was just the camera angle.

[@zittyrrrs7082]

Does the blade miss hit cause more arm shuddering vibration than the others, tho?

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah you definitely get more feedback on the bad ones with the blades

[@sumitagg1]

Jay has already done this. What’s different about your test?

[@epgolfstudios]

No idea who Jay is. My statement absolutely could be full of shit, but it sounds good 😂 I just haven't seen anyone else do the format that I do and how I do it

[@phillarrowsmith3195]

So if the game improvement irons aren't great for slower swing speeds, who are they for? It seems that more speed is needed to handle the strong lofts...but if you had more speed they would travel too far and cause issues at the bottom end of the bag? Does anyone actually benefit from these strong lofts in a real world scenario?

[@oldgold5848]

Yep...the manufacturers 😂

[@jm_puma]

Excellent Q mate. Ive just come out of a fitting and the guys made this exact point. The HM and HMP didn’t suit me because at 80mph 7i swing speed it’s not functional. So for normal speed it’s more like the HL or the 245’s or you have to bend the HMP weak a lot (not ideal). So to your point these are puzzling market things

[@epgolfstudios]

Love it 😂

[@epgolfstudios]

So really it's a very small amount of people. Like mid swing speed who scoop it basically. You're right they are no good for fast swing speeds or really slow swing speeds. So yeah like slow'ish' and mid speed players who deliver a lot of loft at impact.

[@davidk4869]

Can you help me understand why you wouldn’t test the different irons from the same distance? Ignore the number stamped on the club and hit whatever goes 130 yards - then see which club performs best. In thus test, you were 12 yards further with the game improvement than the blade. That’s like saying a 7 iron has better height and descent than a 6 iron. I wouldn’t hit a game improvement 7 iron from 130 yards. I would hit an 8 iron. How would the game improvement 8 iron compare to the blade 7 iron? Would that not be the more meaningful test?

[@briandenton2097]

I learned on blades and have played them with good results. I think it's a cork sniffer thing. Like only the best of the best should use the best looking clubs and us mere amateurs have been told to fear them. Sounds ridiculous but it's not far off. I've never picked up a golf club or any other sporting equipment and every felt fear. SMH

[@timcali9770]

So if I am a high handicapper do I really need a Game Improvement iron? Looking at this data it seems like a blade would not make much difference. Blades do look much better.

[@epgolfstudios]

The honest answer is you need the best clubs that’s suit your delivery. Essentially this video is more about forgetting the forgiveness element and just play the clubs that actually suit you the best and give you the best performance numbers. It might be that game improvement irons are actually the best for yon way you swing it, great then play them, it might be that a set of more traditionally lofted irons suit the way you swing it, then great play those. The message is get fitted you the clubs that suit how you deliver it. Forget about forgives it’s mostly a myth 👍

[@brandonsmith6663]

Love your videos. I’m torn between the t200s and the t350s. Just got into golf this year and have a 34 handicap. Your videos really break these down for me. Thank you

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Brandon. I'm glad you like the videos and I'm glad they help. If you've ever got any questions feel free to ping me an email 👍

[@jerryhurd6672]

Great video, from all the advertisers claims I truly expected a much better forgiveness in the game improvement irons.

[@michaelsands708]

I've tried GI irons and they didn't work for me at all much prefer my Srixon 785's. Toe strikes always have a bigger drop off than heel unless you hit an unmentionable.

[@epgolfstudios]

785s are great irons! And yeah absolutely but only in irons. In woods toe strikes are so much better. And to be fair with a toe strike you can miss the face and it still goes forward but if you do that off the heel it's a shank 😅

[@injuredtabletennisplayer1474]

I can’t go back to blades. Shock my arms when off center.

[@kurtmoore6333]

I like your videos, but you you don’t use a club that goes 146 yards when you need 135 yards You should compare the same lofts to see what the decent angle is I am getting older and went to stronger lofts just to have the distance I used to have in my younger days Thanks for your videos

[@epgolfstudios]

We have done that video to. There's a specific reason I didn'tin this video.

[@harrt4041]

Wow, just stumbled upon this through my algorithm. I wish I could give you 20 👍…(while not shocked) I had no idea what the actual differences were. I suppose the thinking with the forgiveness irons is newer players are going to be all over the face, so with that 20 yard drop off they will still feel as if they are hanging in distance wise with “advanced” players who constantly make good strikes with blades. If the game improvement player makes a good strike and soars over the target, they won’t be as upset as missing short. Psychologically speaking it’s a dick showing contest 😆

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks really appreciate that 👍 yeah exactly and they kinda just buy into the marketing, why wouldn't you I guess. It all kinda makes sense. They just don't tell you about the negative parts of mega strong lofted irons 😅 and the fact that they actually aren't really that much more forgiving 😅 but hey, that gotta sell clubs somehow. That's business, can't be too mad at them

[@ScottieD1967]

The problem is you never just change one thing, when you change one thing you inadvertently change 3 more.

[@epgolfstudios]

@@ScottieD1967 please expand

[@derbananenliebendepavian8721]

You cannot defy physics. Also, it is not really a "blade", but a muscle back. It has weight distributed a little bit to give some "forgiveness". "Real" blades are the old hickory irons, that really are a plain sheet of metal. Anyway, I highly appreciate you doing this video! Atm I am trying to figure out what this whole "forgiveness" and "game improvement" stuff actually does. Most videos really are good golfers hitting the middle at high speeds which does not say a lot. Cheers for doing this!

[@epgolfstudios]

Agree you can't defy physics but how much that physics is actually affecting real world results is very questionable imo. It will be making a difference to some degree of course but enough for most to notice? Definitely not as much as people would have been led to believe by the marketing. And also agreed it's not a true old school blade but it's about as much of a blade as you get nowadays on the spectrum of clubs. Tbh in my fits I don't worry about forgiveness too much in the traditional sense. Forgiveness certainly isn't one dimensional. So when it comes to iron fittings play what club design and loft gives you the best overall performance. Forget the marketing around forgiveness and look at ball flights and hitting numbers 👌

[@derbananenliebendepavian8721]

@@epgolfstudios Yep, that is what I meant with "cannot defy physics": when you hit it out of the toe, the club face will rotate open. All that MOI stuff can reduce that a tiny bit, but never remove it. What do you think about offset? Does that really matter?

[@epgolfstudios]

Absolutely. And again it's a marginal technology. Can make a small difference but again enough for most amateurs to notice a big difference? Not imo.

[@billburbank4314]

I mean your pretty damn robotic mate...sad to see how slow I look with 70mph swing! Frankly I could see club manufacturers cutting off your deals as you deflate their marketing spin. My take away...feel, look and emotion as much as performance with same swing. Of course loft biggest affect. Now come on people hit the sub button...you dont get this education anywhere else.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Bill! I'm only robotic as I'm great at editing 😏😅 and the manufactures don't care as long as they sell something, I will just sell them clubs that actually suit them better, rather than what people may believe suits them better. All the manufacturers do it and I can't blame them, it's business at the end of the day and they are all competing against each other for sales. My job is just to help the average golfers cut through the bullshit and know what really matters for them. As always appreciate the support 👍

[@hubie77]

Im just here to appreciate a positive comment. Cheers m8!!

[@themcguires3562]

The 245 model looks attractive but the price in Canada is $1800. Yikes. Any alternatives at a lower price point.

[@jasonbouldin3710]

Just realized I wasn’t a sub. I fixed that

[@epgolfstudios]

Legend appreciate that Jason 🙏

[@nickpritchard7130]

A cut down version of this long vid would say "at a swing speed of around 70 mph, None of these Irons are suitable due to the Descent Angle Not being on or above 46 Deg...

[@epgolfstudios]

You’d struggle to get any iron to that descent with that swing speed and delivery. Play a hybrid up to 9i

[@nathaniverson6828]

I love when people say . “Unless you’re pro you’re not good enough to play blades” really depending on delivery blades can be more forgiving because of a narrow sole for some players. Try it all play what works for you.

[@epgolfstudios]

Absolutely agree 👍