Episode 073: Melita Thomas on Elizabeth of York | Renaissance English History Podcast

In Episode 073 of the Renaissance English History Podcast I talk with Melita Thomas of Tudor Times about Elizabeth of York, uniter of the York and Lancaster houses. Get links and resources at Englandcast.com.
Show notes at www.englandcast.com/2017/03/e...
Like the show? Leave a rating wherever you listen to your podcasts or here on youtube!
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[@amyrat151]

I've long imagined Elizabeth of York not being a very political person because in her formative years she saw a lot of death, uncertainty, pain, and confusion because of politics. She was more than glad to hold onto the love she had with both hands and center her life around her family, since she thought of herself as being very lucky to have a family in the first place. This is a good channel and I will take the time to listen to more of your episodes.

[@user-ye1pn2xm7d]

Wonderful and brilliant podcast ... very well documented in each detail ...I'm truely fascinated with this dinasty.

[@PhilipStacey-ty2em]

guesswork, conjecture, but to me the most fascinating couple historically.

[@debhurd8898]

I do enjoy these episodes. I'd like to listen to some history of Margret of Burgundy. I'm enchanted by the idea of her living in Bruges during that time period. It seems so romantic 😍. I know, silly me. Thanks again for your presentations.

[@VeracityLH]

I'm delighted to come across your channel! We know just enough about Elizabeth of York to make her a quite intriguing lady. Had I a time machine, she would definitely make my list of people to visit. Thank you for devoting time to this underrated queen.

[@SusanWhitelaw]

😊😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@SusanWhitelaw]

😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@song4mozart]

I am a 7th grade English and history teacher (medieval period), and your videos are a plethora of information. Thank you so much!

[@hteysko]

Thank you for the kind comment! I'm so glad you enjoy them!

[@jameshalley9763]

My ancestor Aurthur Plantagenet was her half brother.

[@OurBucketListHasHoles]

Great episode Heather. Thank you 💜

[@anja1627]

The idea that some Ricardians, particularly Gregory, insinuates that Richard III and Elizabeth of York had a romantic relationship is just ludicrous. Why would he want to marry his niece when he was in fact the one who had her and her siblings declared as bastards? What would he gain from such a marriage? By supposedly wanting to marry her would mean he had to repeal Titulus Regius which would legitimize not only Elizabeth but also the princes in the tower. That would make his claim of the pre-contract marriage of his brother, Edward IV, to another woman prior to Elizabeth Woodville a lie to the people at that time (We all know it was questionable and fishy. That's why Hastings was executed most probably because of him knowing the truth). Remember that Richard cemented his grip on the crown by imprisoning his nephews and by ultimately declaring them as bastards (and he most likely had them murdered, too). The marriage thing was just a rumor mill for sure. It was also perhaps started to spite Henry VII because he was betrothed to her since the late 1983. Gregory's historical fiction even becomes more absurd and preposterous when her story goes that Henry didn't marry Elizabeth immediately for he wanted to reassure that she's not pregnant with her uncle's child. What the heck? Haha. If she was indeed sleeping with her uncle, she should've gotten pregnant instantly because she, her mother and her siblings left sanctuary in early 1984, and she was immediately brought to court and was put under Queen Anne's care. If she was sleeping with him, she should've gotten pregnant already. But she didn't. I don't know what to say anymore about all of these silly made up stories. 😁🤣🤣🤣 Richard may have been quick in making decisions and actions but he was not stupid. Anyways, Henry didn't marry Elizabeth immediately for he didn't want to make it look like he got the throne through his marriage to her but instead by right of conquest. Also, he had other businesses to do first before he could marry her such as make parliament, revoke the Titulus Regius and ask for papal dispensation for his marriage. Henry was a clever and calculating man. Fiction is entertaining. However, it does get troubling when authors confuse their books with fact. I have read plenty of fiction where authors make a good distinction between the two instead of blurring the lines and are also honest about what sources they used, etc. The problem with The White Princess and other books in the cousins war series is that there is no distinction between the two, the line between fact and fiction is purposefully blurred. The way it has been advertised on TV, magazines and other outlets that for some reason have been taken as credible assessments of a topic they are out of their league to talk about, is incredible and downright sad. It is nothing more but another conspiracy theory fest. What's even more ridiculous is that Gregory claims to be a historian. Hahahahahahaha

[@MLPH09]

I found this very interesting I’m glad I’ve come across it myself very in lightning

[@beth7935]

Brilliant! I didn't know Edward IV had suggested (for whatever reason) a marriage between Elizabeth & Henry Tudor! Wow! I didn't know she went to Burgundy either, or made a design for a palace; or about her betrothal to the Dauphin. I'm reading Sean Cunningham's bio of Prince Arthur, which mentions some indications that his birth was earlier than expected- various things not being prepared; having to wait hours for one of the godfathers to arrive at the christening from far away, etc. Given how much Henry VII needed an heir, I don't think it's impossible that he got working on it before the marriage, but it might not have given the best impression of the new dynasty, or his respect for Elizabeth & the House of York. An Act of Parliament actually wasn't sufficient to make Edward IV's children illegitimate- his marriage had to be officially annulled, & I don't think that happened. You needed evidence &/or influence to get an annulment ofc, & I don't know if Richard had those things.

[@nathalia65157]

Very great conversations. My only critique I'd say is that Melita rushed over details such as Margaret Beaufort's traumatic experience of giving birth to Henry VII at a very young age that prevented her from having any more children, and also more could have been said about the traumatic episode of the princes in the tower- I mean to just introduce it to first time listeners. But you brought up so many other new amazing facts that were delightful. Thanks for making these!

[@ellahope763]

Thank you 🙏

[@lisastone8695]

Love the tudirs

[@businessfinancecoach]

I just don't understand why people would think that if it was her brother - that we would know. henry notoriously killed every remote heir, is there some reason that we think he would go "oh, you should be king - here you go.... It's not like I haven't murdered a king before" :{

[@beth7935]

Henry VII had Edward, Earl of Warwick executed, yes. What other Plantagenet heirs? Not Edward's sister, Lady Margaret Pole, or her son Henry Pole; or Edward's cousins, Edmund de la Pole, & Henry Courtenay, Marquis of Exeter- Henry VIII executed all of them, along with another Plantagenet descendant, Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham. Edward's father Henry, the 2nd Duke, had supported Richard III when he took the throne, but Richard soon had him executed. Henry VII, however, reversed the attainder on the 2nd Duke, so his son could become the 3rd Duke, Plantagenet blood notwthstanding. I'd vote for Henry VIII as the Plantagenet-killing Tudor, myself, but there could easily be people Henry VII executed that I don't know about- do tell me!

[@Madam-Cat.Astrophe]

Henry 8th was the spitting image of his mother.

[@AnnetteMurphyger]

Unfortunately yes.

[@tanchiqueen3619]

Who is the host interviewing? So knowledgeable love this!

[@1barkus]

It's so hard to get information on her. Thanks.

[@marylouise2207]

She sounds like the wife and mother from Heaven.

[@elenthora442]

Marriages between uncles and nieces happened a lot in the Spanish royal family, but was considered very bad form in the rest of Europe, can you explain?

[@annstillwell730]

Richard killed her brothers so marrying a niece wouldnt have been beyond him.

[@elenthora442]

@@annstillwell730 that could be, however, he would need a papal dispensation for that and get others to accept something that was not accepted in England. Marrying Elizabeth would cause more problems than he had had to begin with. As far as Richard killing the boys, since they were declared illegitimate there was no need for their deaths at Richard's hand. There were plenty of Lancastrians who would like to see Yorkist heirs dead.

[@jamiemohan2049]

There isn't much to explain. They had different laws and opinions all over Europe. Mainland royals often times did marry uncles and nieces and aunts to their nephews. They got these through Papal dispensations. You also had to have them if you were marrying a cousin up to the 7th degree. These 'excused' the incest. The English regarded it as too incestuous. Mainland Europe didn't, but only royals and nobles could do it.

[@businessfinancecoach]

I don't think it was at all "as apauling as it is today" to marry a relative... cousins often married - it wasn't because there weren't other options, as they suggest in the video, it's because they wanted to keep the money with the connected

[@businessfinancecoach]

@@annstillwell730 since when would a niece get to call a king out on choosing to marry her - because he killed someone! that's funny... but I think there's plenty of good evidence to suggest that Richard did not kill the princes at all, but that was a great script for the tudor propaganda to justify why he invaded England and took the crown with barely a claim

[@jameshalley9763]

Pulling my hair out trying to untangle my ancestors and their siblings in the Plantagenet and Tudor courts. Both Elizabeth Woodville and her Sister Katherine were ancestors, and Mary Boleyn was my ancestor and probably Jane Seymor's Sister may have been ancestors. So many executions taking place.

[@sandrapicton6349]

Seymour.

[@susannahfox7188]

Mary Boleyn is one of my ancestors too. (and I have red hair!) Hello, cousin.

[@juliedurden9479]

My husband is related through Judith Seymour, great granddaughter of Edward Seymour and one of the first Seymour’s to immigrate to America. She married into the Ransom family who is a maternal branch of my husband’s ancestors on his father’s side. On another side of the family, he is descended from Nicholas Lanier, court musician for Elizabeth I. They were Huguenots from France originally, who came to England and America for mostly religious reasons. They would die all over again if they knew their descendants would be Catholics, LOL!!!

[@jameshalley9763]

I did more research putting in a notebook form. Mostly working on tudor reign relatives. I found enough ancestors that could have filled up the Tower of London many times over!!! So many executions during Henry VIII reign. 17 th GGF Edward IV, then from three Woodville Daughters, Elizabeth, Margaret, and Katherine . Elizabeth had 2 sons by a Knight John ? Grey, Sir Thomas Grey, and Richard Grey. Richard was Killed along with his uncle Anthony Woodville while trying to bring his half brother King to be Edward V ,one of the Princes in the Tower to be Coronated. By his Uncle Richard III. He upsurped the throne from his nephew. Now Thomas Grey, my 16 th GGF, the 1st Marquess of Dorset, was half brother to Elizabeth of York, who was the Queen of England with Henry VII mother and father of the infamous Henry VIII. Progressing on, Henry VIII needed a scapegoat for some of the treasury shortages, so Edmund Dudley another GGF about 14 times, was executed by Henry VIII. My ancestor Aurthur Plantagenet married Dudley's widow Elizabeth Grey. Arthur was a son of Edward IV by a mistress. But somewhere I lost the descendancy list, but John Grey was the son and he was the great grandfather of Lady Jane Grey the 9 day Queen who was Executed by Mary I. Also John Dudley was executed by Mary I. His son Robert Dudley was a favorite of Queen Elizabeth I, and had known her since children. His brother John Dudley married Edward Seymours daughter Anne Seymore.

[@MaverickSeventySeven]

Was not the delay by Henry V11 in marrying Elizabeth of York a test of her not being pregnant?

[@hteysko]

There are a lot of theories but most historians seem to think that he wanted to show that he had the claim to the crown on his own without marrying her first.

[@monikagrosch9632]

Please include a notification when the information starts. I have no time to listen to the small talk

[@susannahfox7188]

Achtung!

[@idstandard]

Henry the V11 died by today's money a Billionaire. He learned a few things that carryover to the present. If your heart is broken, that trumps all else.

[@MaverickSeventySeven]

The reincarnation of "Elizabeth of York" is alive and well, and living in Virginia, America!!!

[@pauljohnson3109]

K

[@ivorybluesky]

I think Perkins could have been her brother. I would never knowly send my second son away to a man I feared. And Elizabeth feared Richard III. I would have sent him away in hiding. Henry VII also locked Elizabeth Woodvylle (Lizzy's mom) away in a nunnery. I think Perkins was her brother.