Episode 28: Perkins Engineering 5-stud wheels versus Centre Lock

[@mikeypickett1981]

When I was a lad I was always supporting Larry over the HRT commodores! His liveries and attitude towards the racing was always the best!

[@rhyswoodman6781]

Keep these great videos coming Jack. Not the biggest V8SC fan anymore but I could watch this all day.

[@pauljcampbell2997]

You're not alone mate. There's a growing crowd of us dissatisfied with the current racing. I hope they make some changes to mix things up a bit!

[@malcolmmcleod6020]

I don't think Larko could have described it any better!!!!! VERY informative, Jack - one of your best ever episodes!

[@perkinsengineering]

Wow, thanks!

[@bozo05]

Thanks jack This video just showed your dad believed in basic engineering and common sense in the world of motor racing top work mate

[@deanehill9730]

Came through loud and clear Jack. Thanks for the video and very well presented.

[@perkinsengineering]

Great to hear!

[@brandonshuttleworth1293]

Thanks jack it is quite interesting what different teams do with machining the wheels with different numbers of holes and taper and drive peg design . I didn’t realise that the 5stud wheel nuts were captive

[@darryllspalding5211]

Best vid you ve done young JP . The 5 stud LP controversy is now , SOLVED.

[@markgrovenor389]

Another excellent, informative look into why Perkins Engineering and LP were so good!! Thanks Jack!

[@perkinsengineering]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@davidbarnsley8486]

You are an absolute wealth of knowledge and it is so good to learn what went on back in the day Thanks jack and Perkins engineering 👍👍👍

[@industrialkhaos]

I always wondered while watching Bathurst that Perkins ran the five stud. That was really interesting. Thanks

[@perkinsengineering]

You're welcome, cheers!!

[@54mgtf22]

My 54 MG is centre lock. Tightened with a copper mallet. Love your work 👍

[@ldnwholesale8552]

And the bloody things come loose!!

[@54mgtf22]

@@ldnwholesale8552 Yep

[@casszoomcasszoom7239]

Great info again, Simple effective and reliable, that's the Perkins way, shame so many other good Perkins engineering ideas and practices were outlawed in the rules just to keep up with Jones's....Perkins front calipers for no pad change at Bathurst to name one and I read the Gen 3 cars are most likely going to this " new concept "... Could you look at an exhaust system comparison across the cars ?? 93 - 03mand COTF, single v twin, diameter of pipes from headers to engine pipes and the unique sound and configuration of the later JD cars ?? Keep up the good work.

[@perkinsengineering]

Yes we want to do exhausts but havent got surplus units on the ground to do it properly

[@matt18333]

Agree with all of the above and like Jacks response! Would be great to hear about the 2008 Bathurst exhaust too! kzbin.info/www/bejne/gaPXcqiEgZqHqJI&ab_channel=mwyresvid

[@stefantrnacek1394]

Love your in depth videos, always very interesting. Keep up the great work.

[@perkinsengineering]

Much appreciated!

[@glensgraphix]

Great and concise episode of the difference in these wheels. Nicely done. I remember someone saying in a Bathurst telecast saying LP stayed with the 5 stud because it required less air pressure to drive the wheel nuts on to the centre lock wheels. There was probably more mentioned but that stood out as an excellent reason on its own to keep going with 5 wheel nuts.

[@tassieadventurerider4815]

Thanks Jack, great video. LP the master of keeping things simple yet still competitive and cost effective

[@scooter0958]

Thanks Jack another great episode mate. LP the master of cost effective engineering and reliability!, it’s amazing to think how many cost effective items that where in these cars through out the years that made redundant because someone had different items that cost 10 times as much and gave the teams all kinds of headaches….. LP should be in charge of the Gen 3 project.

[@perkinsengineering]

If they wanted a financially viable solution then yes he should've!

[@blackdoublezero]

the best common sense engineered, financiallly viable solution .....;) @@perkinsengineering

[@davidbarnsley8486]

I watched an episode with Paul Morris and Russell Ingall talking about gen three and they also had quite a few suggestions that would have also saved the teams many thousands of dollars So just think if Larry got with them they would have a very affordable top line race series to the point many other may have been able to get involved in super cars

[@scooter0958]

@@davidbarnsley8486 I couldn’t agree more mate👍.

[@travisparcsi4267]

Another top video Jack. Thanks again mate.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@Pauleyjh]

Thanks Jack... such great insight into what went on and why !

[@davidbutterfield2949]

Another great explanation, thanks Jack 👍🏻🇦🇺

[@perkinsengineering]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@peterhall6656]

Thanks for this insight into the practical aspects of this fundamental bit of the sport. As always Larry's engineering insights are well worth understanding.

[@phillip.9524]

Jack, it is good to see that you are out of the orthopaedic boot. Very interesting explanation.

[@andromedazoowitski5903]

Bloody hell this is good Jack. Thank you.

[@kenem1946]

As always very informative and explained clearly ... thanks, Jack.

[@perkinsengineering]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@Robs_Life24]

Great Video Jack. very informative. Keep up the great work.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@Ckktopa]

I always wondered why LP stuck with the 5 stud for so long... sometimes its an obvious answer. Great insight, thanks Jack

[@Champo18]

Loving the vid series Jack doing a ripper job. Please bring back those LP shirts your wearing in this one in black defs would be buying! Keep the good stuff coming 🚗💥💨💨💨

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!!!

[@slasher9883]

Great job mate, I am not even a V8 Supercar fan but find these videos very informative and entertaining. Keep it up 👍

[@perkinsengineering]

cheers!

[@gregbayliss4737]

Well done Jack just took me down memory lane I preferred five studs especially Bathurst

[@bourbonslurpee]

I used to Reco Dino Paoli wheel Guns. After a service they used belch fire out of the exhaust the first few times the trigger was pulled.They ran such high pressure that any excess oil or grease would catch fire.

[@perkinsengineering]

Crikey!

[@adamroper1197]

Mate, this is epic. Thanks for sharing it.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@beagle7622]

Excellent Jack, have a few more questions to come.

[@stretch383]

awesome explanation Jack.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers

[@chrisholmes6311]

Thanks Jack. Very informative

[@MalcolmCraigHistorian]

Fantastic - I always wondered exactly why the Perkins cars ran with 5 stud for so long (I always figured it was just reliability and didn't think about cost). Now I know!

[@tdub5776]

Great video Jack. Larry was a logical thinker as far as cost effectiveness goes

[@79Skater]

DON'T DAMAGE THAT WHEEL!!!! Hahahaha. Good vid Jack, glued to it the whole time as usual! So when is PE017 Engine going on the dyno? That's the episode everyone's waiting for!

[@PropanePete]

Great explanation Jack. Would you be able to explain how those safety stands work (at 08:00). I've seen cars up on them at races with mechanics working underneath but never seen how they are operated.

[@Mattsretiring]

Fantastic content as always. Thanks

[@perkinsengineering]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@ianbertenshaw4350]

Fantastic video Jack ! Very well explained and demonstrated! Even today it is rare to see a race go by where the centre lock system doesn’t stuff someone’s race , silly thing is if everyone was running five stud today it wouldn’t make one bit of difference to me as a viewer as the difference in time is a few seconds per wheel . I think Supercars are trying to run a pit stop race inside of the main race probably thinking it makes the show more exciting - I want to watch racing and don’t give a damn if a stop is 10 seconds or 50 - they still have to transit pit lane at 40kph and this is what takes the longest time - I suppose it gives Crompo and Co something to waffle on about at least !. They say the Gen 3 cars are supposed to be cheaper to build but they didn’t look at all the ongoing costs and running and maintaining all the tools for centre lock would add up pretty quick !

[@perkinsengineering]

Exactly right, the centre lock looks simple, but in practice it's quite difficult

[@jamiebeverley9705]

Grear video again Jack excellent. What about an interview style one on one with Larry on what he sees with today's cars and teams, and what Larry would do different, I think it would be super interesting to hear his view points.

[@perkinsengineering]

He doesn't follow it close enough now to know exactly whats going on, but it's a good idea for sure

[@Skinna001]

this is the shit the punters want to see. thanks for the videos fellas, keep em up

[@kevinhamling1963]

G'day Jack, Some great information I always wondered why LP stayed with the five stud. So thankyou for sharing I look forward to your next video. ✌️ Peace.

[@bradmcgrath358]

A slide manifold has poped up on facebook marketplace since that episode.

[@mickwhitehouse7537]

Awesome stuff Jack.

[@barryphillips7327]

I remember these incident Jack mentioned, the Brock one was a Ford Sierra Cosworth, took about 5min to get the wheel off, also remember LP in the DJR Mustang 85, saying he thought he a loose wheel or something. LP in 93 used the Holden V8, all the others Chevy or Ford engines, LP qualified 1st and won the race!!!! Outstanding effort!!!! LP cars RARELY gave trouble in the big race! Most people would not realize, magnesium will burn, quite well given the chance!

[@jefftheaussie2225]

Go back to the old science experiment we did many moons ago in high school, it burns spectacularly.

[@barryphillips7327]

@@jefftheaussie2225 No SHIT! Look up 1955 Le Mans crash, to see what it can really do! 85 ppl DEAD!!!!!

[@davidivers6261]

Magnesium burns, but getting it to light up is dependent upon surface area to weight. Magnesium in small pieces, like flakes used in high school, or a thin sheet like the body on the car in the Le Mans accident, has a lot of surface area for its mass so it ignites relatively easily. A cast wheel, on the other hand, has a lot of mass compared to its surface area. You could hold a torch to it and it wouldn't burn. It's even possible to weld magnesium castings. Even aluminium can burn in the right circumstances.

[@silkysixx]

9:03 Change brakes? At Bathurst? only if the rules force you to ;) It would be great to see a segment on the work Larry did with brakes, especially those famous pads that went the whole race without failing.

[@darrennoonan6147]

Great and really informative jack i love supercars but if not for you the average punter wouldn't know, what legend Larry went,through excellent job.

[@stevethorne9605]

Jack! This is great!

[@aaronwendt-smith5910]

Thanks so much, cracking into

[@Daniel-S1]

Thanks, very interesting. I hadn't realised both 5 stud and later centre-lock were captive nuts. I have seen what looks to be a 2 metre long torque wrench tighten centre lock nuts on racing Porsches'.

[@davidewhite69]

love your chair Jack lol

[@jcmate1692]

Thanks jack love all the content the how's and the why's very interesting gives a viewers a better understanding of the complete workings of a v8 supercar now if you could only get the networks to televise all the races back on all the networks there would be millions of happier race fans out there I dont know why all the races aren't televised anymore I suspect some greedy company brought the rights so they can sell the content or charge but love the show

[@richarddyason4568]

Is there a system in place to stop cross threading? With the larger thread of the single nut it seems like it would be easier for the nut to crossthread, especially doing quick changes not starting the thread off by hand.

[@philpreston3072]

Great video. I used to see pit stop guys pull something in the wheel hub after they'd screwed on the centre lock nut. What was that for?

[@shawnmoore4292]

Loving the videos Jack. I would love to know more about the Unimog overdrive you guys developed.

[@perkinsengineering]

Yes we will try and get onto that one day

[@robinbaass1825]

Great explanation. Considering the centre lock nut failures in F1 and supercars, they are not fool proof.

[@1fisho]

Thanks Jack alway interesting as usual

[@jakebrown6291]

@ 7:15 where can you buy these travel brackets for the wheels?

[@perkinsengineering]

The answer is no where unfortunately, they need to be made and they would only suit Perkins cars with our wheel nuts

[@michaelball513]

Great video 😀

[@fatsolutions]

Love the channel!

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@SHADOWW18]

What ive always wondered is..... what stops the wheel nuts or centre locks from cross threading when you go to do them up. I get their captive but that doesn't start the thread off so you can crank it down with the gun.

[@ldnwholesale8552]

They do cross thread too often,, grab another nut and hope that screws on.

[@ryanworkman5229]

This rings a bell deep in my head, I believe there are some tweaks to the thread form that can help to prevent cross threading and jamming, but I also believe the centre bore of the rim is fairly long and a neat fit on the long centre spigot to hold the rim square to the hub, and the long shank on the nuts holds them straight so they can't have enough angle to cross thread.

[@perkinsengineering]

Well the answer is nothing, the 5-studs have a big lead on the studs so it helps locate and start the nut and would very very rarely, if ever, cross thread, in which case you can be confident 4 nuts will still do the job! Centre locks are a lot more inconsistent as the hub and male thread are steel and the nut is aluminium so very easy to strip the threads

[@SHADOWW18]

@@perkinsengineering Appreciate the feedback, it kind of amazes me we don't see more issues with pit stops knowing this now. I feel like thats a day ruiner waiting to happen!

[@normankeoghan5298]

Hi Jack Interesting content thanks. Q: Did they have the in car jack system then ? I saw some form of jack stand on the later car.

[@perkinsengineering]

Back then when? They’ve had onboard air jacks since PE started in 1986

[@Sidewinder1999]

Great stuff.

[@benschafer1660]

Awesome video jack, just found the channel and will be subscribing for sure. Ps love the shirt.

[@johnfranke9655]

Thanks Jack, just shows that L P was more reliable by using the KISS method all those years

[@perkinsengineering]

Yeah there's a bit of that!!!

[@stevenJEDI3]

I’d like to see a clip on the brakes and what modifications you are done in the day

[@richardgutteridge2127]

This is great information and good history of it. Could you please look into the engine's that Perkins used and dive deep into the technical side of the motors such as rod length and piston weight, head flow and port size , camshaft spec and rocker ratio it would be awesome to hear from Larry about what he thought of the difference between the Holden heads valve angle and the chev 18 degree head from a flow and combustion chamber design perspective. I hope this can happen!

[@stevegraham3817]

After watching this video, my guess is that there was no performance advantage for Larry compared to retooling and restocking. At least no advantage to the Perkins way of extracting power compared to the other teams. lol. But yes it would be good to get into his mind, thoughts and processes to see how extracted that power.

[@toddaikman3259]

Great Video! Always wondered how they were so fast with the 5 stud. A good centre lock wheel is hard to beat aesthetically compared to the 5 stud though.

[@ldnwholesale8552]

It looks good?? Too me it looks suspect!!

[@carsonhovercar7685]

I have always wondered this. I remember seeing a replay of Bathurst as late as 99 or 2000 in the VT commodores and I always wondered what was the absolute latest car that still used 5 studs?

[@perkinsengineering]

The last car we had on 5-stud was the Dugal McDougall Pepsi car!!

[@tomnewham1269]

@@perkinsengineering What ever happened to Dugal McDougal? I always have remembered his name and recall that he use to race in Formula Ford.

[@carsonhovercar7685]

@@perkinsengineering so last year 2002? It's so interesting to see how NASCAR has been going this year moving to centre locks, 20 years later.

[@Dave.S.TT600]

Thanks!

[@joelrobinson5179]

Quick topic for a day ahead, suramic ring's and bearings along with velve guides - low friction - higher compression etc like Group C 1980s has you old man ever seen suramics in Group A ?

[@CRFLAus]

The order Jack does the wheel nuts up is important. You just don't go 1,2,3,4,5 in a clockwise manner. It's the little things that count.

[@perkinsengineering]

Good observation

[@gleneaton3852]

The all important question though Jack, is how many dugga dugga's for the 5 studs vs the centre lock with those guns!? Awesome inside information mate and you can see we are all lapping it up. Keep up the great work!

[@perkinsengineering]

Haha if the centre lock is 2-4 then the 5 stud is 1 at most!

[@mickhamilton8385]

Nice work 👌

[@michaelguerin56]

Thank you. Interesting to hear about all the safety issues with the centre lock wheels, especially for the pit crews. Somewhat hypocritical attitude by the governing body in those early days, given how much they were banging on about driver, circuit and pit lane safety at the time; at least according to my recollection. There is propaganda and there is truth.

[@avusblau]

Amazing video. Keen to see more. In the bmw racing community, many experience the m12 wheel studs failing. Was this experienced by the Perkin's team?

[@tristancrowe8768]

Are all the wheels right hand thread or did you convert the left side to left hand thread?

[@FuManchu5ltr]

Good to see common sense being applied

[@dalewyatt1321]

You have boots on both feet. Recovery complete?

[@perkinsengineering]

Moon boot recovery complete. Still got a bit of time to recover proper

[@Kurtis_Fraus]

Lovin the videos !! What size tyre was used on these wheels ?

[@jimmyrb82]

Great video Jack! Was there a wheel nut locking mechanism on the 2003 car? I remember when there used to be the clip that was inserted separately after the centre lock wheel was tightened. Were there variations of it? Another was a push button from memory.

[@bruceellicott6232]

Hay Jack why dont teams use compressed air on the current rattle guns

[@RadicalRacer41]

Yea I'd like to know that as well, my little race car runs centre locks and I use nitrogen because I use it in the tyres and air jacks as well. One bottle does all.

[@davidivers6261]

- air contains moisture - nitrogen is inert, it doesn't burn. Fewer combustibles in pit lane is a good thing.

[@bruceellicott6232]

@@davidivers6261 ok thanks for that David cheers buddy

[@perkinsengineering]

Yes David is spot on

[@bigredwrx4313]

I like the idea of having captive wheel nuts could this be done on a road car

[@madeulook5421]

I'd like to know ya old man's thoughts on the old argument regarding RHS left hand thread and LHS right hand thread?

[@thejollyfrog2791]

With the rear hub it would of also had to go to a seperate axle yes ? As with the 5 stud axle and hud and rear axle bearing are an incorporated unit

[@perkinsengineering]

Not exactly sure what you mean. The axles for a cambered rear end stayed the same regardless of centre lock or 5-stud. Cars could easily be converted or built to centre lock, we did this for a few customers, the outer hub section is the only part that changes.

[@thejollyfrog2791]

Oh this is independent rear suspension is it

[@andyjames2082]

I kinda like the cathedral sound 🤣

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@RBFR01]

How did Perkins come across Perkins Dymag rims? were they the original rims off the race car or did Perkins Engineering source them from somewhere?

[@perkinsengineering]

PE designed them and Dymag made them in 1989/1990. Larry met Max Boxstram of Dymag in Europe in the 1970’s.

[@charleshodgson1434]

Do the centre lock wheels have a fail safe measure to ensure the nut doesn't come off?

[@Franksssss]

Plot twist for supercars 2023, back to 5 stud wheels. I reckon that would sort some teams out.

[@scottallpress3818]

Would love to see a video on the brakes used for the 1995 win with no pad change

[@perkinsengineering]

That’s in the pipeline

[@PCmaz32]

Hey Jack, How did you prevent cross threading the wheel nuts in a change?

[@perkinsengineering]

With he 5 stud? Big lead on the stud

[@DanMadeau]

Have teams considered using cordless rattle guns? Some of these new 3/4 cordless guns have some serious grunt

[@perkinsengineering]

You could with 5-stud, they wouldn’t knock off a centre lock from 700ft/lbs. Apparently that’s one of the aims with Gen 3, use a smaller nut and spindle and use cordless instead of air bottles

[@user-du8cs8sn2v]

Looks like the centre lock nuts are LH thread on the left side of the car?

[@perkinsengineering]

Correct. We actually started with diagonal, so RF and LR were LHT and LF/RR RHT. Then for 2003 it was LHT for LHS and RHT for RHS. These days it’s RHT all round

[@vokstar]

Nitrogen was used in the centre lock guns because you didn't want any moisture in the guns? The audio was fine too btw, the vids are really excellent cheers for making them.

[@perkinsengineering]

Yes thats the major reason, keep the moisture out. Cheers!!

[@crunchytheclown9694]

Larry always was a politician, Jack never did cut it

[@tturi2]

what were the specs of the wheels? like 17x11 +30?

[@perkinsengineering]

Wheel size was 17 x 11 since 1990. Changed to 18 x 11 in 2013 with COTF. Commodore offset was different to Ford, all teams switched to ford offset in 2003.

[@harteck4452]

I had someone from a Supercar team a few years ago try to tell me the single but was cheaper 😂😂😂 Should have used 5 stud on Gen3.

[@perkinsengineering]

Well it’s probably not as expensive these days because the rattle guns are cheaper and CNC machining is somewhat cheaper, wheels are cheaper and so on but 5-stud should always be a more affordable package

[@PUNCHARD800ftlb]

so the rattle guns are basically a blown big block chev torque wise holy crap

[@stevegraham3817]

I think the 5 studs cost Larry the 99 Bathurst, it may have been some other win, but either way, the tyre pit stop took 1 or 2 seconds longer than the opposition and they managed to undercut him. The nexty year there was centre nuts on the LP car.

[@tonydownunder5703]

👍