Episode 30: Larry Perkins' 1993 Bathurst Winning Holden Engine on the Dyno

[@johnbrooks9523]

This is it, folks... Over the top! This little "Stock Block" Holden power house is the one that really blew us all away! The last GENUINE HOLDEN to beat all comers at Australia's annual knock 'em down & drag 'em out showdown at Bathurst in 1993. The big money teams had all switched to imported Chev or Ford race engines & Larry wouldn't have a bar of that! He knew he could beat the crate motors with his own carefully set up locally cast, genuine Holden engine & he did exactly that! All the punters got their hopes up & all were convinced that Larry's little ol' Holden had no hope of surviving the attack from the megabuck imports. Larry had a stonkering ace up his sleeve... He loved his Holdens, knew EXACTLY how to set them up & he knew what to do to build reliability & economy into them. Well, Larry was bang on the money. He built the car, set up the engine from a bare block & HE even attended at the foundry to ensure the ACTUAL BLOCK WAS CAST EXACTLY AS HE NEEDED IT TO BE. He put the package together & drove it himself and got the win. This is the Great Grand Daddy of all Holden 5 Litre race engines. This entire engine was made from raw materials & it was built specifficly to do one thing... OUTRUN ALL OPPOSITION & WIN AT BATHURST... & that's exactly what it did. A very special little engine.

[@JoeC88]

👍

[@johnbrooks9523]

@@JoeC88 I think it's fair to say Brock was easily the best driver we ever saw in a Holden. He had a profound & well documented gift as a sympathetic, but brilliantly fast driver. Brock had Harry & Ian Tate & John Sheppard & others doing the engineering. Larry, on the other hand could drive too, maybe not quite as well as Brock, but Larry had the supreme engineering capabilities to build fast, durable & economical racecars. Larry was the allrounder who knew every nut, bolt & washer in the machinery HE built himself AND he knew how to drive that machinery all day, just fast enough to win, but not so fast that it broke. Luckily for us, Larry loved his Holdens, knew a Holden was better than a Chev or A Ford, (Remember... Larry worked with Johnson & codrove Johnson's Mustangs) he kept his faith, stuck to his guns, refined the Holden 5Litre engine himself & drove it away from allcomers at Bathurst in 1993, despite the big money opposition having imported expensive US crate motors. We owe plenty to Larry... He proved to the world for all time that our little homegrown V8 was more than capable of beating every other comparable smallblock this world could throw at him. Larry proved a point... On a level playing field, Australia's product was the superior product. Those who adore imported shit, bought imported shit & didn't support our local & better product. Local manufacturing died as a direct result. The dipshits who don't like Holdens are the very same dipshits who shit in their own nest & killed our superior car industry. I wouldn't own a Chev or a Ford because they only used caveman American designed V8s. We had the best little V8s in the world as was proven by Larry at Bathurst in 1993. Dummies still didn't catch on. Now all we have to choose from are junk imports.

[@stgnsw]

Any mention of the aero changes that were once again aloud to be made to the Holden before sandown and bathurst in 1993 ? Has Larry still got them ?

[@JoeC88]

@@johnbrooks9523 Damn right mate. I always admired LP's engineering & innovations.

[@johnbrooks9523]

@@JoeC88 Larry was treated like an outcast in Formula 1. After a dismal time in Europe he brought his supreme talent back home to Oz & got involved in Touring cars. He very nearly won Bathurst with the "Captain" Peter Janson before he signed on with Brock to replace Richards. Poor ol' Richo took the BMW money but found himself outgunned by the likes of the Brock/Perkins Marlboro HDT. Larry ran the HDT workshop & helped put Brock back into race winning cars. We were lucky Larry was shunned by Fomula Frisbee. His achievements here brought him instant national stardom & recognition & rewarded his talents where F1 left him broke & stranded. Larry has the runs on the board. His last to first effort in 1995 is the stuff of legends & will probably never, ever be repeated. But, in my view, his greatest achievements were engineering the Marlboro HOLDEN DEALER TEAM ONE TWO IN THE DAYGLOW ORANGE VK BIG BANGER GROUP C SEND OFF in 1984 & winning Bathurst with a HOLDEN ENGINE IN 1993 WHEN ALL THE SMARMY SPOILT BRATS HAD BIT THEIR MUMMIES FOR THE MONEY TO BUY IMPORTED CRATE RACE ENGINES! Larry is solid gold. A great achiever, who got the job done with the local product despite the fact, the rich bitches had more money & imported engines & every time some muppet tries to belittle Larry, I just laugh at them. I'd give anything to see Larry back on the circuit in any Historic Group C car. That would be a dream come true.

[@timnoske4705]

I remember working in that building when HRT were based there and that's all you heard all day. That was heaven! 🙂

[@perkinsengineering]

Great sound isn't it!

[@Emz04]

Amazing how such a legendary name such as “Perkins” is still being kept alive in these vids. Great insight into Supercars. Love ya stuff mate

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@CMReid]

One of the greatest Bathurst races was when Perkins Engineering gave the rest of the field a 6hour lesson on going from last to first !

[@perkinsengineering]

1995!

[@HSVGEEK]

And yet no media even gives it the time of day compared to the other races they wax lyrical about. That race is the pinnacle of flat out.

[@petercameron8832]

Thankyou, I must be a nerd, still find this stuff exciting. Nearly 77.

[@perkinsengineering]

Nothing wrong with that!!!

[@twistedthrottle8513]

The old Lion raw , never gets old that sound

[@davidbutterfield2949]

Hearing that baby sing brought a tear to this old Holden man’s eye, love it!👍🏻🇦🇺

[@malcolmirving9485]

Same David. I can remember watching that 93 race and I was so proud that the Aussie 304 took it to the yank engines.

[@MafiaboysWorld]

540hp is nuts for a Holden 5.0L without needing the 355 crank. No wonder the HRT Chevy motors had no chance against your Dad and Russell in 1993. 😎 Thanks for sharing this Jack. 👍

[@gemini3558]

Gday Maf !!! Our Gemini engine was built to match the 92/93 engine spec with lower compression because of pump fuel and yes 355 and Harrop intake manifold carby engine made 500 hp 450 ft @7600 !!! 😜👍🇦🇺

[@thunderL34]

The late Gregg hansford was the co driver in 93, russel come along in 95 🙂

[@ausman05]

@@gemini3558 You have a V8 in a gemini?

[@gemini3558]

@@ausman05 yes mate road reg hot rod but we don’t drive it much, use it for drag racing !!! 😜👍🇦🇺

[@ausman05]

@@gemini3558 Always thought a Gemini with a V8 in it would be fun lol, any vids on here of it running?

[@PaulPapanikolaou-d5r]

That’s amazing v8 Holden Beast.

[@perkinsengineering]

Iron lion 💪

[@DaveMcLaughlin]

That was cool.1993 was my first year at Bathurst all the way from Scotland back then and I remember the sound of this engine and my first taste of the Aussie V8's. Instant fall in love. 😁

[@perkinsengineering]

How good!

[@veneratedmortal4369]

Me and my dad always talk about this engine. Great to see it on the dyno. It makes more than either of us guessed.

[@perkinsengineering]

Good stuff!! Cheers!

[@bluejayfabrications2216]

What a beautiful noise I didn't realise when I was a kid LP was the thinking man's race car driver/builder untill I stumbled upon your channel I have a lot more respect for the man

[@malcolmirving9485]

Watched that race Jack and I was so proud of you guys using the Holden engine take it to the superior [lol] American units.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers Malcolm!

[@7071t6]

Also thank you for Larry signing the 1993 Holden VP Bathurst poster for my son back in 1998, Live your dreams Michael, also thank you buying the stainless steel welding wire, which you guys were using as tie off's for new engines for certification and other aspects of the car builds etc. :)

[@perkinsengineering]

You're welcome!

[@barryphillips7327]

AWESOME ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!!!! I know Mark Larkham will be watching this on MAX volume LOVING every second of it!!!! The Holden block used were strengthened by the factory, i believe LP suggested a couple of areas to make it stronger, AWESOME!!!! An Aussie made ( cast and manufactured in Australia ) winning qualifying AND winning Australia's GREAT race 1000kms, Does it get better than that???? I doubt it!!!! Even as a Ford guy, i am going to enjoy this!! LP used the Holden Aussie made engine in 93, he won qualifying and won the race, inspite of EVERYONE saying it would NEVER qualify and IF it did?? it would not win the race, well LP did BOTH proved everyone WRONG!!!! I have a lot of respect for LP both as a driver and a race engineer!!!! Jack you should be HUGELY PROUD of your father, he put the 'Perkins' name on the map for many good reasons!!!! Be PROUD of him ALWAYS!!!!!!!!

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers Barry, i'll have to ask Larko about this video next time I see him!

[@barryphillips7327]

@@perkinsengineering I am 110% CERTAIN he LOVED EVERY second of it! Larry Perkins is a LEGEND Jack at least as much so as PB, DJ, JR, All legends of the sport, LP not only drove he built the cars too!!!! Awesome!!

[@BRTInternational]

Also great to see Andrew's finest, the Dynolog dyno system working well. More Aussie engineering excellence!

[@richlounder2465]

Anything Larry is super special even now, bring it on .

[@ray.shoesmith]

Love the soundtrack on this video.

[@perkinsengineering]

So do we!!!

[@jeffwhite9001]

How glorious does that sound!

[@toddfraser8818]

Great to see that beast at full song...

[@taylordve]

Nice sound, great engine, & a great win. From memory Perkins supplied the engine for the Bill O'Brien, light blue Everlast VL - stood in front of it at the Calder pits, & so new they'd just put the stickers on the headlights. When it first started up sounded like it wanted to kill someone. GLORIOUS!!

[@perkinsengineering]

Yes Bill was a great customer for many years

[@peterhall6656]

What can I say? Tackle tightening. Not bad for a "primitive" pushrod engine. Love these videos. So many poseurs in the KZbin space. You guys are the real deal.

[@mattmatty4670]

Keep coming back to this one. Cheers

[@perkinsengineering]

How good!!

[@craighaydon6587]

That was a great video. Thanks very much to everyone at Perkins Engineering and Walkinshaw for the entertainment. Some great power and torque figures from that engine and the sound was music to my ears.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers Craig!

[@rochelleparker9575]

Great work Jack,I still reckon that sounds better than the current stuff.Thanks for sharing.Steve.

[@perkinsengineering]

Sounds good doesn't it!

[@jarrodminogue9244]

what a great sound. great to see it still making its horsepower

[@jjjjjj9284]

What a sound! Music to any revheads ears lol, as you guys stated first few runs she was a bit fat and you could see above the inlet trumpets of that and the pitch of the engine changed after you guys trimmed the fuel map ..Awesome video Jack keep up the great work ,you and your Dad are absolute legends 👍

[@perkinsengineering]

Sounds good doesn't it !

[@jjjjjj9284]

@@perkinsengineering oh yeah you got that right mate

[@CMReid]

One of the sweetest sounding V8,s

[@alanwall961]

Absolutely brilliant, Holden, best engines ever, cheers Jack

[@grahamerosewarne6656]

Have really enjoyed all of the videos. Larry was always the Man to beat. I still remember You as a Child in Bathurst. I lived there and grew up to become a Mechanic. Nothing like Larry. He's a incredible Man. 💯👏👍

[@perkinsengineering]

Thanks Grahame

[@LV-FOURTWENTYSIX]

Great work Jack. Those rocker covers are sweet.

[@perkinsengineering]

Very cool aren't they!

[@GerardBendotti]

really enjoyed the "once we're arch rivals" part. shows mutual respect

[@nikolaibarbarich7887]

Haha I remember this noise. My "panel shop" at Northern Ave was right next to the engine room at Jack Daniels. It was this sound that sparked an interest in V8s and the supercars. I don't have a bad thing to say about my time at Perkins and LP was always a nice bloke to work for. Thank you for some good memories from 2009 and 2010. Todds win at Tassy was a highlight. From Nik the painter.

[@perkinsengineering]

Haha yeah the dyno was basically in the paint shop! Cheers Nik

[@nikolaibarbarich7887]

@@perkinsengineering yep that right. Shaun and Tony doing there thing. I've seen young Chris a couple times over the last couple years. Hope you and Larry are all well. Nik

[@rogerpearson9081]

Thanks for this. Pretty stout output and singing like an angel.

[@jarrynsmith]

Sounds so crisp and healthy what a nice machine, my uncle had a Vs with a Larry Perkins engine in it with the signature in the block it was a weapon, I would love to even look at that beast in person

[@marcuswalker7398]

Why do I tear up at the sound of this beast at full song

[@perkinsengineering]

@@marcuswalker7398 sounds ace doesn’t it! Cheers

[@marcuswalker7398]

@perkinsengineering ....I am a bit of a tragic ....I have taken up listening to this on my phone ,loudly , while in que for coffee in the morning ...cheers me up ...makes my day

[@craigtuck1741]

cheers Jack that was amazing to see the beautiful engine running

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers Craig!!!

[@dank_productions94]

Just found your channel from another iron lion vid, bloody hell never seen anyone able to get there hands on one of these to have a look over. Bloody awesome to see!

[@calvo131]

Gotta love the sound of an old iron lion. Sounds amazing

[@perkinsengineering]

Sounds good doesn't it!!!

[@davidnguyen9409]

Amazing what LP managed to extract out of the 304. Don't think he left any stone unturned, those are some seriously impressive numbers.

[@waynethomas1243]

Great video. I cannot wait to see this car run.

[@perkinsengineering]

You and me both!

[@kevinhamling1963]

G'day Jack, Another awesome video. Seeing and hearing that Bathurst winning engine on the dyno must have been a real thrill and I can only imagine the excitement when its reunited with the car and started. If you need any help I'm available 24/7. Thanks for sharing man ✌️ Peace.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers Kevin

[@deanehill9730]

That was great to see Jack. You could slide some more of this in occasionally if you have available engines to run. The see through rocker covers were interesting . Thanks for the video.

[@dudeybagz]

So it wasn’t just me?

[@vlfreak]

Part! I could hear crompo in my head, telling me thing is "..out of breath, its on the 7500 rpm hard cut!" Love these vids guys, keep that coming 👌🍻

[@perkinsengineering]

Hahaha needed the commentary!!!

[@wayneholzer4694]

I have to say that is one very beautiful special engine. Very admirable naturally aspirated engine but Larry proved he knew how to engineer a race car and race it properly. I also have great memories of 1995 Bathurst too.

[@thebeuks1]

how awesome to hear the old girl roar again

[@54mgtf22]

Love your work, Jack👍

[@perkinsengineering]

Thanks! 👍

[@travisparcsi4267]

Wow what a sweet noise! Great video again! I’m looking forward to seeing and hearing that engine back in the car. Keep up the good work mate!

[@gcelectricalandairconditio4999]

Waz knows his stuff, couldn't be in better hands!

[@perkinsengineering]

He's a ripper fella!!!!!

[@matk4731]

That was fantastic Jack what an awesome engine. Thanks for sharing 👍🏻👍🏻🙃🙃

[@perkinsengineering]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@simeonorive145]

Love your channel. You speak just like your Dad he was always my favourite and went to my Dads shop on occasion to buy beetle parts I think he used beetle bump stops for gear leaver knobs?

[@perkinsengineering]

That’s it, PE gear knobs were/are VW bump rubbers!

[@simeonorive145]

@@perkinsengineering awesome thank you for confirmation my Dad was quite proud that LP was a customer.

[@boomer_bob6493]

Another cracking video Jack. I am a little surprised at how ordinary their dyno room looks, I was sort of expecting it to be spotless like their engine room.

[@perkinsengineering]

It's a dyno room/working space, not a museum!!!

[@brentonk461]

Good to see it's not been sold off as parts. Turn my daily driver 23° 327 small block Chevy to 7500, the other one, a 307 chev goes to 8500.

[@scooter0958]

Great stuff Jack, Go the Holden Power💪💪💪💪

[@baddaddy3954]

Great vid mate. Probably more engineering in that manifold then most built motors these days.

[@perkinsengineering]

Haha yeah possibly! Although the current Supercar engines are a work of art!

[@Ricky-nq7lu]

Love hearing that engine screaming once again jack. The race that still stand out for me was the 1995 Bathurst as Larry got shit done even after the early set back.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cool isn't it!!

[@johnfranke9655]

Great job Jack, look forward to next episode

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@mrwolsy3696]

Awesome share, when you've exhausted Larry's collection it would be awesome if other drivers shared their collections. Seton maybe?

[@bullzye101]

awesome stuff what a beast of a engine very interesting as well .... big thumbs up

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers

[@jahnperez5060]

I remember 2001, went to John Faulkner's shop in Clayton. The amount spent just on the head work. And the vacuum room, like a surgery. Beautiful.

[@simonmoat7311]

Awesome video Jack, good to see the iron lion making some good numbers.

[@piffiiiiiiit]

That's the stuff of legend. Thank you for sharing!

[@spawnneverland5334]

Sounds super awesome!

[@perkinsengineering]

Does doesn’t it!!!

[@Megaphone77]

This I music to my ears. Always loved the 304 sound. But at 7000+ RPM that is just incredible! Makes me want another one but I'll have to settle for my ITB LS1 lol.

[@bigredwrx4313]

It's gonna feel great on the track

[@perkinsengineering]

It does!!

[@geoffhill6992]

That awesome v8 sound - no other configeration can get close to it.

[@JohnLee-vj9lh]

Great video Jack nice motor

[@fullboost]

Nice video guys :)

[@perkinsengineering]

Thanks! 😀

[@shanewilson5248]

hey Jack ,thanks so much ,i have always wondered how much HP the engines made back when it was real, cheers

[@HoonTV]

Awesome mate 🙌🏻

[@davidskinner6765]

Fantastic content. Love you channel. 🤘

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers and thank you!!!

[@colinstewart1432]

She runs sweet. Sounding as gorgeous as you'd expect. V84ever🤘🤘🤘

[@paddy2661]

Love it Jack awesome video

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers!

[@OZToolTalk]

Loving these VIDS !! Was in your old mans local the other day and was hoping like hell to see him lol. Cheers for the mint vids Jack

[@mariom3631]

Hello from California! Jack love the Channel. Great stuff.

[@perkinsengineering]

Cheers Mario 🇺🇸

[@stelitejet]

Great stuff love your work👍👌🏁🏁

[@perkinsengineering]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@petertubez]

I love the attention to detail. Is that an original 008 ignitor I see hanging there?

[@beagle7622]

This is becoming a goto website for me . What are the rocker covers made of and why are they transparent. Curious?

[@Bigcountry_littlelegs]

fiberglass

[@AD-yy3it]

They are amazing, must save a few ounces over steel or aluminium and it's cool seeing the rockers moving.

[@alexjohnward]

Very thin fibreglass to save weight.

[@vokstar]

I think they are transparent so that you can check to see if there is a failure, I could well be wrong though.

[@ehass85]

@@vokstar it's simply how the fibreglass looks when manufactured with that particular cloth and resin.

[@tighematthew]

so Awesome

[@BRTInternational]

Awesome engineering legislated out of use by the Conspiracy Against MotorSport.553hp was the best I saw back in the day. Probably still have the .CAL files if you would like them.

[@perkinsengineering]

Yeah it's a shame we didn't have a reference engine on the same dyno as they all read much differently!

[@BRTInternational]

@@perkinsengineering Yes, that they do Impressive to see the 1993 Autronic SM2 with a firmware update, has hands free fuel mapping (Functionality perhaps not available in the current Supercar control ecu). Bosch 008 ignition module (factory part from a Holden JB Camira), OEM Bosch ignition coil. Simple, robust, technically excellent race wining performance.Autronic SM2 still available new from Autronic in 2022!.

[@Clintreid75]

Sounds beautiful ❤️

[@perkinsengineering]

Doesn't it!

[@jareddiamond6607]

Nice work.

[@perkinsengineering]

Thanks!

[@rodneywright3370]

Sweet sounds……

[@adammutimer4701]

Would be awesome to see some footage on the mods in this engine to the oil system ect

[@perkinsengineering]

Yeah it's hard to do that stuff without an engine in bits....

[@sardengineering]

Super proud to see the SM2 engine management solution from Aubert Electronics Pty still in place, what a win. As a vanity question, what firmware was the SM2 using? I did notice that there was a MoTeC M1 doing some tandem logging, can you share what channels was it logging and what was the objective behind using it? Thank you kindly in advance.

[@phillip.9524]

Jack good fun watching once again. Are they the slide inlet manifolds?

[@LawrenceDriveLights]

Keep up the great content, is that the slide throttle bodies is action? Are those fibre glass rocker covers? If so why is that? Would be great to have a follow up story with Larry going over all the engine details.

[@perkinsengineering]

Yes, yes and weight saving.

[@nathan5615]

Another awesome video thanks guys.! What was the thinking around the fibreglass rocker covers.?

[@burnsiet]

Awesome stuff.

[@brandonshuttleworth1293]

Thanks jack awesome video, did Larry ever try to get that torque dip out of the engine? But I guess it was good enough to win Bathurst , could you feel it in the car ?

[@perkinsengineering]

You would have to ask him, in theory it's just above where the average gear change rev drop occurred.

[@ItalianStallionLouie]

This is so impressive, love the 308’s. Are copies of the intake/trumpets for sale? What camshaft/heads/compression/fuel being used???

[@Hapkido82AUS]

1993 spec is same compression as today, 10:1. Heads are factory iron, then modified. And probably a big solid roller cam in it

[@dinosshed]

Lots of special low volume bits in this engine. Larry went to the Holden engine foundry, massaged the sand castings to make only 100 cylinder heads and 50 blocks of which are much stronger than any standard units.

[@Frontman936]

You need to watch the video with Larry explaining the slide manifold setup. The heads are also explained in that one. What a package he was as a brilliant Motorsport engineer and competitive driver.

[@jasonhall9731]

Relaxation music to fall asleep to

[@Mattsretiring]

Fantastic to hear a homegrown and more importantly home engineered Lion roar. Roughly speaking, how many of those 540 ponies did the slide manifold contribe? Is that a contributing factor that the HP continued to climb from 7300 right up to 7500?

[@greenfoam]

KZbin should have added a double thumbs up button after removing the thumbs down because this video surely deserves two thumbs up

[@perkinsengineering]

Crazy to think someone would dis like it, but there's currently 2 people!!!

[@James-zj3ud]

@@perkinsengineering probably 2 of the blokes who finished behind LP in the 93 race!

[@retsbewr]

Best sounding V8, love it, I want my 94 Clubby to sound something like that! Quick question, why doesn't it rev fast too redline when the butterflies fully open, is it a dyno thing?

[@CMReid]

It’s not free reving , the Dyno puts resistance on the engine to measure the HP and torque output

[@perkinsengineering]

C Reid is correct.

[@SuperTambo69]

@@CMReid Normally a water resistance torque converter style,right?

[@CMReid]

@@SuperTambo69 yes mate that is the most common one

[@southo69]

Woo Hoo.... You have a 3 Footed Monster !!!!!

[@bena6852]

Does the engine retain the factory holden firing order or has it been changed?

[@perkinsengineering]

Yes sir, factory Holden firing order

[@jefftheaussie2225]

That’s why the Holden V8 sounds so good. Jeff

[@stanbikebiz2141]

Gotta love the sound of 1 2 7 8 4 5 6 3

[@mgunning7362]

Another great vid Jack. If you do another 20 vids on that engine I won't have a problem with that. Or 30. You mentioned the ECU. Must have been primitive in 93 compared to now. PS I like your boots. I wear similar. Are they Redbacks? Ive moved onto Steel Blues.

[@brdllc]

Was gonna ask the same question about the boots. They look like red backs to me. How do you like the steel blues? I’m wanting to get the best quality work boots Australia has to offer!

[@mgunning7362]

@Blvk Mvsk steel blue def most comfortable by far.

[@johnhennery8820]

always mate grate show maby u could show us the car wen it's done thanks again mate

[@perkinsengineering]

For sure, the car features in many of our other KZbin episodes already and it will feature in many more!

[@dtengineering1]

I love the semi see-through rocker covers - fabulous. Was the Air Fuel Ratio 13:1 during the run? You had rebuilt the engine and then during the dyno sessions the fuel/spark maps were reconfigured, how did the HP results for this motor compare to how much it was making at Bathurst 1993? Great video guys!

[@perkinsengineering]

Rocker covers are cool! The air fuel ratio changes through the various runs. Well the dyno used then, versus now was and it different so the numbers don't mean much unfortunately. It was around 540-550 on our dyno back then...

[@dtengineering1]

@@perkinsengineering Cheers for the info - again, well done on the original results and now the rebuild.