Episode 6 - Internalized Homophobes

[@h.orrore]

This was a great episode! You guys rock. I love how non-partisan you both are -- not obsessively woke or anti-woke. Really operating outside of the culture war. Very refreshing. I just subscribed. 🤘🏼

[@L_Martin]

38:42 Coming from the fanfic writing community, this part of the discussion was very interesting regarding how popular slash fic is, and I think you hit on the answer here. With straight and lesbian/bi women who are writing and consuming slash fic, I can easily see how there's a spectrum of AAP at play, and it's actively a turn-off to have a female character involved in the romance story, the desire is purely for the (AAP, female) reader to map herself onto one of the males in the relationship, and I'm going to generalise here and say the one they choose to map on is usually the feminised male character, who the female author will invariably write in a way that codes them as "the woman" (or the "uke") I've recently noticed a rise in trans identifying females writing and consuming m/m slash, and yet they will identify as lesbian, while if you take a look at their fandom Tumblr, it's full of m/m explicit slash fan art and explicit writing of m/m s* scenes. There's often very few pictures of women (certainly zero erotic writing about them/their bodies), it's all about the dudes. If they do reblog images of women, it will be for social justice reasons, never lusting in the way they do for the males. And these slash writers will be females who themselves are taking T and writing a lot about the effects of THAT as well. I think AAP is absolutely the explanation for this, and for straight women into slash (which is the majority), that is quite fascinating, because I don't think when they are dating guys they are picturing themselves as "the uke" / the feminised male character in a m/m pairing, I think they are almost always totally allosexual. It would almost seem to indicate to me that a larger proportion of straight, allosexual women have a predisposition towards sort of entering into an AAP fantasy that they then take off when with a real-life male partner, and I would suggest this is not the case for males with AGP.

[@cormorant12]

I would disagree that identifying with the more feminine character is near-universal. In fact, you would expect a classic AAP to do the opposite, since they would be more on the dominant side which mirrors AGPs being submissive (also, they want to be a man not a barely disguised woman). Also, seme/uke is a yaoi trope that doesn't rally apply to fanfic since the characters there at least start at comparable masculinity levels.

[@L_Martin]

@cormorant Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I meant for straight women (who date men) it is near-universal, and they are the biggest group writing slash fic. They are looking to identify with the feminine male character both in the writing of the fic and as a reader of a fic, and yeah that is a generalisation but it’s what I have noticed. I am just speculating, but tbh I think it's similar with lesbian AAPs who are into slash fic as well, though seemingly butch lesbians will moreso map themselves onto the masculine male character who is the pursuer / the top. It is contradictory but at the same time, slash readers in the majority definitely want to map onto an effeminate gay MALE who is the bottom, they are definitely not looking to map onto a female. They are imagining themselves as a male, that's the turn on. So it is perhaps that there are 2 modes of this type of AAP: the most common where she imagines herself as the feminine male (bottom), and the less common where she imagines herself as the rough tough masculine male (top). I think it’s the distinction between an AAP woman who is allosexual (and who may in fact shift out of AAP when engaging with a male partner), and an AAP who can only be with other women because it allows her to fully think of herself as “the man” compared to her feminine partner. There may be a small group of AAP women who date men, who privately imagine themselves to be the bottom in a gay male relationship, and I think those are tending to go the FtM route nowadays and styling themselves as gay men in a gay relationship with their male partner (when it's in fact technically a m/f relationship). But following this theory, thinking of themselves as a gay man is done to satisfy their AAP. I think seme uke absolutely describes the same phenomenon as we see play out in slash fic fandom. (Also disagree that the 2 male leads in slash fic start out the story at comparable masculinity levels lol but maybe we just differ in opinion)

[@cormorant12]

@@L_Martin That depends on the fandom, but take Dean/Castiel in Supernatural, for instance. If you think one of them is clearly less masculine than the other, you'd have around half the fandom disagreeing with you. And plenty of fics treat them as around equally masculine without feeling a need to turn either one or the other into "the girl".

[@cormorant12]

@@L_Martin And if you go back to the OG, which one would you classify as feminine in Kirk/Spock?

[@L_Martin]

@@cormorant12 Whoever in the story is the bottom. That’s the one the straight women will be mapping onto.

[@phililly]

Haven't listened yet but lmao at the title (I'm assuming this is about autogynephobia and autoandrophobia)

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

hey Phil!

[@TheNavelGays]

Yes, and then some!

[@honberg193]

There is a lot of confusion about HSTS. To get to the bottom of it one only has to delve into Ray Blanchards original definition. How this links with the children who don't desist. 1) identify with group they are most like at a very early age. 2) around puberty passive sexualy. Confusion to why they prefer the same qualities in a male that their adopted peer group find attractive. Including the masculine feminine dynamic. 3) How they express their orientation being similar to their adopted peer group. 4) an avoidence in any potential partner being invested in their genitalia. If they are then they are deemed unsuitable. 5) Historicaly they small males in most respects. Blanchard also goes onto talk about getting involved with women's conversations and being accepted as such. He's also made it clear that the gender identity Disorder apears before puberty and before sexual attraction begins. James Cantor has hypothesed base on the fact that ordinary homosexuals brains are pushed slightly in the opposite direction and that HSTS brains pushed further. The result being " incomplete homoseuals ". Having surgery and disappearing into the heterosexual majority. Many of what Blanchard calls the new crop don't fit his original subjects. The G.D.A.A.N.T group. Gender identity in adolescents and adults. Non transsexual. If internalised homophobia is about not wanting to or afraid to express one's oriention. I've not seen any evidence in his papers. The original batch would adopted a gay identity if they could of done. They later more expansive group were happy gays untill they failed to find a partner who didn't wish them to be a mirror of themselves. These exist as Gynandromorphs in a subset of LGBT attracting gynandromorphilic and agamp men. Rarely to they pass fully, and were not GD kids. When one talks about internalised homphobia do we mean it's dictionary definition. Do we mean an adapted definition about tastes, or do we mean a post modernist gay identity based on a hierarchy from masc gay man to fem to transsexual. Or is it an incompatable expression of sexuality incompatible with an egalitarian post modern gay identity. Based on cross sex identifcation from 3 years old. One thing is for sure gays dont like the idea of same sex attraction outside of their community.

[@cormorant12]

Another aspect that gets interpreted as "internalised homophobia" is masochism. "I want to bottom for a man while the idea simultaneously disgusts me and I don't understand why but it's still hot" is not a femboy hating the fact that he's gay, it's masochistic attraction which is common in AGP.

[@RussBlake80]

Im an agp, have been since childhood, and made worse after puberty, i never was interested in women or men however had several crushes on men throughout my life which grossed me out. I did eventually get with a woman who was quite masc and tough when u was 21. I never enjoyed sex. Was never turned on by her, and at the same time i have never been with a guy in the bedroom to see if i enjoy that. Ive done drag before at the point of not being able to stand seeing myself as a soft natured baby faced man anymore, and would dance in gay clubs for just over a year which was great, however my daughter who i had with that same girl was growing up and i knew i couldnt be selfish engaging in such perverse behaviour, she needed her dad. So i dont engage anymore. Im probably gonna be single for the rest of my life and live for my daughter which jsnt such a bad thing. As shes amazing. Coincidentally shes turned out to be lesbian however presents very girly, whilst at the same time has some tomboyish elements..think its the adhd, it makes guys feel like girls and girls feel like boys. Such a crazy topic to try and get to the bottom of. Doubt we ever will fully. And one more thing, when i did watch porn which i dont anymore i used to watch girls to learn and mimic them not because i was turned on by what i was watching.

[@samuelsundin]

-why on earth would lesbians watch male on male corn? -wait, what if it’s just AAP behaviour? -always has been

[@cormorant12]

"Sex between masculine men is gross, at least one participant needs to be feminine (even if only in his own fantasy)" is a reliable marker of AGP/GAMP. No gay man, no matter how self-hating, finds masculine hunks repulsive.

[@lizicadumitru9683]

Perfect timing...gym session! ❤😂

[@miroirs-jumeaux]

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