Hi, it's Tali! Calling it a fetish isnt inherently wrong, and there is certainly a fetishistic component for many agps -- but if you only see it through that lens, it will limit your ability to understand the subjective experience (which we are interested in). And you're right, autohets are signaling to themselves because they have an erotic target location error. But for many, they are also signaling to others, because of the behavioral/interpersonal components of agp. Yes, most of them are traditionally heterosexual in that they are seeking female partners. But a non-insignificant number of them seek sexual and romantic relationships with men. Many of them seek sexual and romantic relationships with other trans women, which isn't straightforwardly "straight" or "gay."

Because its more then just "I get off on it." Because the person involved is yourself, or at least a 'womanly' view of yourself, you evolve from 'sexual' to 'romantic' feelings about yourself dressed as a woman. Denying this begins to deny the romantic feelings you get, and it becomes very much like losing a close relationship. Now imagine a girlfriend that you broke up with that you had to see every day. That you love her, and know she's there around the corner waiting for you to come back, and will accept you with open arms. Sounds like hell. Yes, its absolutely a sexual misfire in some way, but so is being gay. Having a misfire that you cannot correct and attempting to convert autoheterosexuals away from what they are would be the same as denying a person who is gay. The question then is not, "Is this a real feeling they feel that needs management" but, "How should Autoheterosexuals best manage who they are?" Transition seems right out, as transition impacts your sexuality, the very reason you want something. Role play, awareness of what you are, and finding the right time and place to enjoy this seem, to me as a person who does not have this, as a reasonable means of management like any other sexual orientation. I think the main problem is public 'sexual advertisement'. Advertising to other people that you're an autoheterosexual is fine in the right time and place. But should it be done all the time? Or if it is, should it be blatant and in your face, or more subtle like most people do? I feel the autohet community needs to explore how to sexually advertise in a more subtle way. For example, a gay man may have a certain fashion sense and manner of speech at work, but its still professional and respectful of other people. Sexual advertisement in general is uncomfortable to many people in excess in the wrong place and time. I feel this is one of the main problems with the autoheterosexual community, at least on the mtf side. They seem to confuse, "I'm expressing that I'm a woman" with "I'm sexually advertising as a woman", and go too far.

A sexual orientation is merely the way you are "oriented" "sexually". A paraphillia is defined as an abnormal sexual interest that persists. So in truth, I find the semantic debate about these two words unhelpful. It's more important how it's experienced.

Ray prefers to call it “auto heterose xuality”. He is heterose xual, but his this heterose xuality is inverted, so that he experiences se xual attraction towards himself when dressed “as a woman”.

That 80% statistic comes from adding up all the trans women who report nonhomosexuality (being het, bi, or ace with respect to birth sex). Blanchard's research showed that nonhomosexual MTFs are of autogynephilic etiology.

@phililly I am bi and not agp. He is just incorrect. He may be mostly correct but idk and doubt it. His theory fails in my case and I believe in many cases. I am trans cause conversion therapy not cause of a fetish. My being bi doesn't change that

I just started this episode but this podcast spends a lot of time explaining that fetish doesn't describe AGP.

@@njada1691 They will say that then turn around and use AGP as a pejorative as a synonym for fetish

​Not the hosts of this podcast, no. AGP is understood and used that way frequently tho, yes.

you're so welcome <3

i'd say this mostly comes from the fact that queerness as an ideology is being purposefully disruptive. recently, they've chosen to use trans people as the device for this due to gay acceptance being basically done. it was never about the acceptance of transsexuals like me, it was about having a scapegoat to push nonconformist ideologies. btw, i'm annie from the video! i'm happy to hear it was your favorite 🥰

Oh, hi fellvoid

​@cyrusevans1009 hello hello ♡

you make great points that i didn't think about! (btw i'm annie from the video)

Thank you! Our pleasure.

Thanks for the background info, I should probably learn more about her life history before talking about her. I think she was AAP though. Here are some of the passages I highlighted from her book Tendencies: “In among the many ways I do identify as a woman, the identification as a gay person is a firmly male one, identification "as" a gay man; and in among its tortuous and alienating paths are knit the relations, for me, of telling and of knowing.” (Sedgwick, 1993, p. 221) “The first time I met Michael Lynch, I thought his whiteframed glasses were the coolest thing I had ever seen. I twas at the MLA convention, in New York, in 1986. My first thought was, "Within two months, every gay man in New York is going to be wearing white glasses." My second thought: "Within a year, every fashion-conscious person in the United States is going to be wearing white glasses." My instant resolve: "I want white glasses first."” (Sedgwick, 1993, p. 264) “Michael's availability to be identified with and loved, in my instant, fetishistic crystallization of him through those white glasses, must have had everything to do with my witness of this moment.” (Sedgwick, 1993, p. 265) “The stubborn magical defiance I have learned (I sometimes feel I have succeeded in learning) in forging a habitable identity as a fat woman is also what has enabled the series of uncanny effects around these white glasses; uncanny effects that have been so formative of my-shall I call it my identification? Dare I, after this half-decade, call it with all a fat woman's defiance, my identity?-as a gay man.” (Sedgwick, 1993, p. 268)

@@phililly I agree that she was AAP. I am just pointing out that she is a counter-example to Aaron's claim about autoandrophilic women in previous generations almost invariably becoming butch lesbians. She wanted to be accepted as a queer intellectual. If she could have somehow made herself be attracted to women, she would have had an incentive to do so, but she didn't, so presumably she couldn't. I am not a Sedgwick fan, but I respect the fact that she didn't pretend to be into women when she wasn't in order to gain social acceptance. Not all women are naturally bisexual/sexually fluid. I think that's an important point.

@@_Laura_Reynolds 100% agreed. i've never bought into the all women being fluid thing even if more women are bisexual than men.

That PFP is doing a lot of work, Amaya.

@@talibotz they make prograns that will delete that from the footage but tali it was honest feedback. It wasn't meant to disrespect you guys.

@@talibotz and I did listen to it. I'm not trying to hate on anyone.

Actually, just because talking about this stuff to strangers online isn't great doesn't mean that it would be better to be sharing these kinds of thoughts with family members or real life friends. Most people don't want to hear about this kind of stuff, or would feel compelled to give feedback that I don't want. I have learned that it's important to have boundaries with people who I know in real life. I maintain that the most appropriate person to tell these kinds of things too would be a therapist, unfortunately I have not been able to find one that I could work with. If I had been able to find a therapist 5 years ago, maybe I would have never made a twitter or youtube, and for me personally, that would have probably been better, because then I wouldn't have shared a bunch of stuff online that should have stayed private and could be used against me later. It would be interesting to see what the current state of the detrans and autoandrophilia discourse would be in this alternative history.

@@_Laura_Reynolds yeah…plus over sharing with the “wrong” person could end up metastasizing to your larger social group. So instead of strengthening in person relationships, you end up destroying in person relationships .

@@_Laura_Reynolds I get what you are saying Laura. Its very problematic what we share etc. The other side of that coin is that I think you have made a fantastic contribution to the complex issue of what drives people to want to be, or present as the opposite sex. Best wishes to you.

I saw a study that said that, despite stereotypes to the contrary, men actually lie more than women. I don't know if it was a good study though. It seems plausible to me that my impression that males do lie more could just be due to men being worse at lying. PCOS is a fascinating subject, which I just recently began to research. Some of the studies I read, which I didn't get a chance to mention, indicate that there are at least two "types" of PCOS, an obese type, and a non-obese type, so it's not as simple as just that PCOS causes obesity (even though it can) but also that the non-obese type was more prevalent in developing countries, and that at least some of the increased prevalence of the obese type in the USA might be due to people developing PCOS secondarily to metabolic syndrome caused by obesity (and possibly also triggered by eating disorders and/or psychiatric medications around puberty). This seems pretty important, especially since the predisposition can apparently be passed down through three generations (in mouse models). Another study found that lesbians with PCOS had higher levels of androgens than straight women with PCOS. Unfortunately, I think we are unlikely to get any more high quality data on PCOS and sexual orientation. If an attempt were made now to study PCOS in lesbians, the lesbians who are now "trans men" would be missing from the sample, skewing it badly, I suspect, and obviously, any attempt to study PCOS among transmen or detrans women who were put on testosterone and/or puberty blockers before being diagnosed with PCOS is not going to tell you wether they would have had PCOS anyway either. I also want to say, in Buck Angel's defense, that he has always been openly critical of phalloplasty (which was part of his rationalization for his "man with a vagina" campaign back in the day), but I think that once someone develops Gender Dysphoria, regardless of what triggers it, it tends to take on a life of it's own. It would be absurd to claim that Buck is somehow directly responsible for what butch lesbians who might have "caught ROGD" from him went on to do to their bodies, as if he were some sort of cult guru or something.

@@_Laura_Reynolds thank you! Helpful response. I didn’t know all that about pcos research! And good point, that it may be too late to do research on pcos and sexual orientation due to the butch transition craze. I wish more studies done on lesbians in general controlled for gender expression (like butch and femme and in between), but that may be hard to do given how small of a sample size you are already dealing with. I tend to think men are less morally scrupulous than women on average, so I can see that making them more likely to lie. But, then again, I could see women being more likely to lie to fit into a group. Who knows?? Yes, you are right about Buck and phalloplasty. And yes, gender dysphoria is more complicated than just one person brainwashing ppl into it. I think buck did play a crucial role in popularizing transition as an option for butches, tho, and hence is responsible for that much.

Buck Angel didn't even get phalloplasty. I don't know why that was brought up. I'm also glad that someone called Aaron out on his bullshit.

nonsense

Matthew 19 12 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️ says God prefers same-sex marriage and confirms transgender people are born that way. JESUS was TRANSGENDER 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️, a female man returning as a female woman in a lesbian relationship with a male woman. I am Elijah, the forerunner to the return of Jesus. Fake ministers all know Malachi 3 8 is telling THEM to return the money.