ES-335 Tremolo - Awesome or Awful?!?!

[@andrewkoastephens210]

I used to be a hard-tail purist but somewhere along the way I switched teams. Now I rarely reach for a guitar that doesn’t have a wobble-grip. This is a cool option without having to drill holes into an heirloom.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Me too! For ages I would deck my Strats and play hardtail guitars and then all of a sudden something flipped and now I find it super hard to play any guitar without a trem system. Deusey really designed one hell of a system here and I can't wait to actually put it on it's final resting place.

[@everennui1]

Same! Then I got a Squire Strat and play it more than my Gibson. :/ I just picked up the Les Trem with a Tonepro Roller Bridge and I cannot wait!

[@chrisbystrak7967]

I just put one on my ltd ex50. The supplied bolts did not work, but the stock tailpiece studs worked instead and don't get in the way of anything. The trem is awesome. And if you get sick of it you can take it off and put it on somthing else. I'm definately gonna buy a second one.

[@joegalea3652]

I put one on , on my LP & found it GREAT . it holds tune good . One thing. It does need a roller bridge. Some on the Gretsch guitars , with a bigsby . I had to put a roller bridge on as well .

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Nice! That’s maybe a subject for a future video, since not all roller bridges are created equal.

[@RickMcCargar]

I had one installed on a 335 a year or two ago. I loved the smooth action, but didn't like the placement of it because it made it difficult to rest my right hand on the bridge for muting purposes. Good demo.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Hmm, that’s something I’ll have to keep an eye out for.

[@BaconatorJames]

Would you suggest that a Bigsby would be better re: hand placement? I've ordered the Duesenberg for my ES-339, from a couple of people swearing by it as better than the Bigbsy. I want to keep my 339 light as possible. I've ordered a Roller/Rolling bridge as well. Placement is really important to me - I've been unable to buy any Ibanez guitars due to the pickup switch levers located so forward on the pickguard region (I anchor my pinky too much, bad habit I'm trying to break). Any advice you or any other viewers could offer me is appreciated. I'm going to put a Bigsby on my Tele Deluxe, but the ES-339 is getting this Duesenberg trem system + rolling bridge.

[@RickMcCargar]

@@BaconatorJames Duesenberg Radiator tremola is positioned like bigsby but works far better. I put one on an epiphone es-335 that you can find on my channel...and I plan to put on on the Heritage H-535 that I bought.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@BaconatorJames yeah to answer your question, I think the Les Trem would be a better fit on your 339 than a Bigsby. As far as hand position goes, the Deusey has much more options because you can position it with the set screw to whatever angle you like. Personally, I would use it with a roller bridge to help alleviate excess string wear and friction on the saddles. I have a Tele with a Bigsby and while it is fun it’s honestly not my favorite application. I needed to shim the neck quite extensively in order to make the angle work out.

[@BaconatorJames]

@@MillerCustomGuitars Thanks kindly, that good advice. Appreciated. I've never even had the neck off my Tele (I'm new to guitar in 2018 but can do my own upgrades/adjustments) & I'm thinking the Duesenberg trem makes more sense for both. My Tele also has a tune-o-matic saddle/bridge, so I'll see how it goes with the 339. I installed a Floyd Rose Rail Tail on my American Performer Strat, and I love it - but for the Gibson & my Tele, I'm not interested in deep bends anyway, just some trem. Nice ES-335!

[@stancoleshill8925]

The video becomes invalid at 6:00 because he does not have the correct tremolo arm. He wrapped it with tape.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

I couldn’t find the Duesenberg arm bar. I used tape so that it wouldn’t have any slop in the hole, it didn’t impact the function of the device. I purchased a replacement Deusey bar later and can confirm that it works just as good as I said.

[@bumblefritz]

I put a Duesenberg on my Starcaster and I can confirm... it's awesome!

[@theoversouls]

I'm an experienced player that's done a ton of guitar work, but I worked with one of these for over a year and could not get it to stay in tune. The nut is good, lubed, etc but the trem would not come back to the same resting spot - you could clearly see the arm visually that it wasn't returning to the same spot. Finally had to remove it to save my sanity.

[@ddminis4813]

Awesome. Not awful.

[@ddminis4813]

Beautiful guitar!

[@RaxFx]

if you want more sensitive response, Reverend has a great spring replacement.

[@djsangre]

About 20 years ago I put the very first Les Trem model released (the one with wider bar) on a ‘92 Gibson SG and it was awesome. It kept tuning very well and it was very progressive. I unfortunately sold it with that guitar 🤣

[@BaconatorJames]

If you could put that on an SG & it actually kept good tune, you must know what you're doing! The SG, was it stock, or did you upgrade the nut, install a roller bridge, put tons of carbon in the nut slots, etc? What gauge strings? An interrogation here, I know - just when/if you have time. Trying to do the same on my ES-339 & I've spent a lot trying to get it stable. I left almost a book's worth of info in the other comments here so I won't bore you again.

[@djsangre]

@@BaconatorJames stock SG with no upgrades, BUT mine was a different model of Les Trem: the first one with flat bar and the shape of a standard tailpiece with a side spring and hinge. I used the standard tailpiece nuts, not the one coming with the bridge and it was kept in place by strings tension.

[@BaconatorJames]

@@djsangre Thanks, sometimes the trems simply work reliably & I'm hoping it's a matter of a simple fix for me, since I spent lots of cash on aftermarket stuff & reached my limit. Gonna file down the nut on mine soon (or replace it with a Graphtech one) if I can't keep it in tune.

[@djsangre]

@@BaconatorJames it’s strange a ES-339 has a bad nut. I had no problem both with the Gibson SG bone one and the Epiphone Casino I got recently. I don’t know if it’s plastic or “nubone” from Graphtec (I couldn’t find specs online), but I’m impressed. I hope you find a solution!

[@BaconatorJames]

@@djsangre Thanks, I find if I bend upward a bit a few times, I can finally hear a little 'clink' and it's almost back in tune. I realize I'm doing something the guitar wasn't meant to do, so I'm not disappointed in Gibson in any way (though the 17 degree headstock angle is a bit extreme IMO). The roller bridge wasn't necessary, but it's something I'd buy with a Les Trem anyway to be sure. It's been kind of fun for the most part, I only started playing guitar in 2018 so I'm learning a lot about aftermarket stuff. I think I'll get a guitar with Evertune soon, since I really respect new tech/innovation. I put Robo-tuners on my Strat a while ago & actually like them. I use them so I can switch from several different tunings quickly when practicing. DADGAD to Open G then to B Flat? Yep!

[@Noone-of-your-Business]

The tuning stability is not in the trem. It's in the nut and the string alignment of Gibson's obsolete headstock design. Install a String Butler to eliminate this problem.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

I would respectfully disagree. In my opinion, tuning stability is like an entire ecosystem where many different parts of the guitar effect the entire system. Yes, of course the nut plays a HUGE part in your tuning stability, but also the quality and materials of the trem as well as the precision of it’s installation factor in. The quality and effectiveness of the tuners factor in. The quality and age of the strings factor in. The amount of break angle at the nut factors in. It all adds together

[@Noone-of-your-Business]

@@MillerCustomGuitars String Butler works. I also threw in a roller bridge and a Graphtex nut, and I have absolutely _zero_ detuning on my Les Trem fitted 335. And that instrument is "only" a cheap Harley Benton. The Les Trem is not the problem if all other relevant parts do their part.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@Noone-of-your-Business You're proving my point for me. You addressed the entire ecosystem of your guitar: You modified it to have a graphtech nut, a roller bridge, and a String Butler in addition to whatever trem system you added. If you didn't have greatly improved tuning stability after doing all of these mods, I would be shocked. I have nothing against the String Butler, other than it's not very attractive, I just don't think it's necessary. Or, rather, I would say that there are many other mods I would do to a guitar to address tuning stability before I would add one of those.

[@Noone-of-your-Business]

​@@MillerCustomGuitars Thanks for the feedback! 😊 What other points would _you_ start with?

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@Noone-of-your-Business I would always start with the nut. Making sure the slots are cut correctly and sized appropriately for each string, and that the slots are lubricated adequately. With a 3x3 headstock I would relieve the angle that the D and G string exit the slot going towards the tuners using nut slotting files. Graphtech nuts are cool, but you don’t really need them if your nut is done right. Also, understanding the function of the type of trem you’re using is critical. Bigsby’s were not made to dive bomb, and if you try to do that on one, you are going to have problems. Even a Strat Style tremolo was designed for mild vibrato, to create a shimmery sound. Massive EVH Style dive bombs are not their ideal use. For me, I always make sure to do one good up-pull after a bigger dive bomb, which helps to redistribute the string tension evenly. You can hear me do this on the video after I dive bomb, the guitar is pretty out of tune. I almost completely restore the tuning by giving it a big up-pull.

[@jeffmckinnon5842]

You should never pry straight up on tail post collar's unless your intent is to swop them out. These fittings are held in place with pressure and a spot of glue. Maybe less on a hollow body! If there is a more destructive aftermarket "Upgrade" for guitars, I have not seen it yet.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Most manufactures use a pressure fit only and almost never use glue. It's fairly easy to remove tailpost inserts, I've done it many times. When installing a system like this, you might be required to replace the stud inserts as the studs might have different threads. In this case, it came with screws with two different types of threads.

[@erwinroman4217]

Nice, but will the guitar fit in the case with it?

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

This is a good question, and one that a couple people have asked. The answer, of course is that it depends. It depends on how you set the arm, and it depends on your case.

[@brCharlieNagy]

So it comes back in tune ? ! Thanks

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Yeah baby!

[@baronvonchickenpants6564]

It's excellent value for money and works very well so long as you have a graphite nut

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Yeah, I think it works pretty well right out of the box. You can make it work better with upgrades like a graphite nut or roller bridge, but even without those, it’s pretty awesome!

[@michaelgibson4863]

Thanks for this - am convinced!

[@CSLBRK]

Add a roller bridge and some locking tunners and voilà! Plus it looks as good as it plays!

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Funny you should say that, because I made a follow up video doing just that! kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6asiYifebB8q7s

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

And then another follow up video where I dive even deeper into tuning stability. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qXi5koqZiqd_Y6M

[@jreagle58]

I'm interested in the Duesenberg Tremar Trem. In particular if it would work on a Gretsch G5222.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Yeah man, I'm not sure about that!

[@jano3289]

I used to have one installed on my previous guitar and the tuning stability was just awful and it really turned me of from tremolo guitars in general. Since I removed it and have it lying around i thought if changing the bridge for a TOM rolled bridge. Do you think this would help?

[@madearl]

@jano3289 on my SG the roller bridge made a huge difference.

[@BaconatorJames]

Would you recommend getting a good quality roller bridge for any hard tail (e.g. tune-o-matic) config? It seems like a superior design. Obviously there's more effort in machining a roller bridge than a stock bridge (+$), but I'm surprised we don't see them more on really high end guitars. Just seems like a no-brainer to get a roller bridge, so that tells me it's a new/untested tech or it's a hit & miss solution that's not worth the risk for big names to adapt (yet). I'm new to the guitar scene since only 2018, so fangs-in, I'm supposed to ask stupid questions!

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

No, I don’t think so. If you don’t have a tremolo system, the Tune-o-matic/stop-tailpiece combination is a classic combination and works really well. No reason to change to a roller bridge just for the sake of change. I am going to be releasing a video in the next day or two that is going to talk about things that you can do to improve tuning stability that have nothing to do with the saddles. Keep an eye out.

[@BaconatorJames]

@@MillerCustomGuitars Thanks, looking forward to hearing your take on that. I know a roller bridge isn't required for tune stability on many guitars, but I thought since people add them with the express purpose of improving tune stability, why not get a good quality one for shiggles. Saw Troggly introducing the Les Paul Acess or some stupid name, the one with the Floyd Rose, and it has a roller bridge. The Gibson design doesn't seem to be trem-friendly to begin with, so I've added all I thought I'd need to stabilize my 2018 Gibson ES-339 Satin after installing a Duesenberg Les Trem 2: - 'Nut Sauce' on the stock (bone) nut - Grover locking tuners, strings make 1 - 1.5 full wraps around their posts. - Schaller roller bridge, no lubrication added, but it's good quality & string height isn't too close to the fretboard. - Ernie Ball strings (10 - 46), new 3 days ago & worked in. - Frets aren't polished or sanded since new, but they're clean with no impressions. With all the above & I do NOT use the trem, the guitar keeps tune very well, even with a lot of good bends (G string needs the odd tweak, but hey, find a guitar that doesn't (except for an Evertune..). If I trem a wee, wee bit, it can keep tune but after two or three tiny trem bends, the 6th & 5th strings go out of tune first & the rest follow as the trems go on. Thru process of elimination, this leaves the NUT. I don't know what a healthy/unhealthy nut is supposed to be like, but when I slowly bend the trem toward the guitar, I don't notice the strings catching or moving in different sequence, no noise, but that's not a foolproof test obviously. I'm not good enough to change the nut (I just started playing in 2018 & this is, for me, a very expensive guitar). I know you & the account 'MYOB' aren't exactly hitting it off, but I took his advice on ordering a String Butler. I watched a couple of videos about it (Darrell Braun!), thought it's worth the risk & doesn't require permanent mods to the guitar. Watching other guys do full range Bigsby bends & still stay in tune is surreal at this point, I'm like, "you muthaf..". The String Butler will be a couple of weeks, Reverb isn't the fastest at delivery. I'm know my long diatribe is getting ahead of you here, I'll sthu & check out your next video on this - I'm just dumping my efforts here so far, maybe it can help someone else trying this, or better yet, save them from buying gimmicks or recommending ones that actually work. Thanks again!

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@BaconatorJames check it out! kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6a4pnmGdruCbNU

[@BaconatorJames]

@@MillerCustomGuitars Ah, cool. One viewer said he upgraded to a Black Tusq nut, which I'm willing to do if I have to, I just have to pay a tech to do it. My Epiphone ES-339 (I know, two of them!) will be a project for nut upgrade. The neck angle of the Gretsch seems a bit less than my ES guitars (like, it's closer to the Epiphone angle than my Gibson ES). I think I did everything suggested on that video, though I only skimmed thru it for now. Interesting thing though, like you reported - I was trying again this evening, it was dumping out of tune, and I pulled up on the trem (almost a full octave), and in 1 out of every ~3 times I do that, it goes back into tune, or extremely close anyway. That sounds like the nut to me. I'll install the string butler when it gets here, maybe try my Ernie Ball 9.5 gauge strings instead to see what space they have in the nut. Whatever's grabbing the strings, it's subtle. No clinks or sounds of strings being held back when I pull the trem back to raise the octave. I appreciate all your help, I'm learning tons about trems.

[@BaconatorJames]

Update: Installed a String Butler, new strings (EB 9.5 gauge). Took extra care to do it right, re-applied Nut-Sauce. Wore them in for several hours, stayed in tune with heavy bends... ....until I used the Les Trem. Out of tune every damn time. It's the nut or the Les Trem itself. New Tusq nut on order for both my Gibson & Tele Deluxe. When I install the new nut on the Gibson, that's gonna either work or I'm giving up & trying the Les Trem on my Tele instead. Gonna use 10 gauge strings next time but this is the last set of strings I waste on getting my ES-339 to work with a trem.

[@redDOT_channel]

Where i can buy it

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

The last I checked, the best place to buy it was on Reverb.

[@redDOT_channel]

@@MillerCustomGuitars i am not found les trem in Indonesia

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@redDOT_channel That's an interesting challenge my friend. So, first off, you want to be shopping for the Les Trem II (2). You can try to buy direct from their website, but I'm not sure if they'll ship to Indonesia: store.duesenberg.de/en/tremolo-systems/?p=2

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

store.duesenberg.de/en/tremolo-systems/34/duesenberg-les-trem-ii

[@redDOT_channel]

@@MillerCustomGuitars ok thanks my bro 👍

[@Pusongmamon413]

awesome,where to buy that,is it available in amazon

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

I would say your best bet would probably be Reverb? If you search for Les Trem II (with upper case “i”s) they come right up.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Yes, I checked Amazon and they are not sold on Amazon

[@lomoholga]

People need realistic expectations They don’t perform as well as a two pole piece Gotoh 510 bridge or a similar two post vibrato bridge, but this unit is dramatically more convenient than a bulky bigsby

[@pugforce8315]

What i learned from this is that i really just need a princeton.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Can’t argue with that

[@PracticeLikeAPro]

great video! m not a fan of them myself id much rather go bigsby, ive been meaning to put one on my SG forever lol!

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Changing strings sure is easier with this system!

[@everennui1]

@@MillerCustomGuitars OMG! Stringing up a Bigsby is worse than being kicked in the balls. I traded in my Gretsch for a Telecaster about a year ago, and I'm so happy I did, but I've been missing the lovelynes of the Bigsby. So hopefully this will sound really nice on my SG.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@everennui1 i just got a Gretsch Electromatic and it sounds so good. They make them with a hardtail, if you want them that way….

[@everennui1]

@@MillerCustomGuitars I had the G5120 Electromatic with the Bigsby. I don't think I'd even consider a Gretsch without a vibrato. I wasn't a huge fan of it.

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@everennui1 I just got the G5230T and it sound incredible.

[@vracan]

seems like it can get in the way with my palm. Looks too cluttered back of bridge

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

It actually gets completely out of your way. Since it's behind the bridge, it doesn't impact your playing at all. It's pretty cool. If you want add a tremolo to a TOM style guitar, this is a great option.

[@marvinstorm9153]

At least it doesn't put other strings out when bending like Strats. I love them but this shits me

[@vracan]

you must be doing something I have no out of tune problems whatsoever with my trem on my american strat

[@TheRWE12]

Pls tune that animal. Impossible to tell if it keeps in tune, a massive factor.

[@ddminis4813]

Wiggle stick! 😂

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

Former co-host of the Chasing Tone podcast Travis Feaster used to call it the gear shifter :D

[@hendriksevecke761]

Awful.

[@guitareputz]

aweful!!!

[@MillerCustomGuitars]

@@guitareputz 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@guitareputz]

@@MillerCustomGuitars I couldn’t get over the clunkiness under my picking hand. Every time I went to turn the volume up or down I’d bash my knuckles on the tail piece, besides it really is limited sonically imho at any rate. They are incredibly easy to install and uninstall