ESIV : Oblivion Birthsign Tier List

[@tomaszpawlik5091]

you seem to not point out that powers are not crippled by your debuffs, eg silence and armor. A lord will remain usefull for a warrior always, it would be better than master resto spells for him too becasue your magnitude isnt nerfed - same with ritual, normally such effects work only up to lvl 23 for armored characters, but a power will always work

[@bsh819]

If Steed ain't S tier I'm out. edit: you wretch!

[@theoldknight85]

@@bsh819 haha I get it, moving fast is why I love this game. Tomorrow I’ll do a video on the movement speed formula which is really why speed just isn’t that good. It’s all about a balance between athletics and speed while keeping your worn weight at zero

[@DIEGhostfish]

​@theoldknight85 In that case it's sad how feather eas changed

[@Imperiused]

Watching these tier lists has me really eager to know what your ideas would be to make decisions like the choosing a Birthsign equally viable. Would you adjust other mechanics in the game (like making poison a more frequent and potent threat to improve the Serpent)? Would you change the effects themselves to make them more worthwhile with the existing quirks of the game? A little of both? Or, if you use mods, what mods are your favorite for fixing various problems or imbalances in the game? All future ideas for videos, mayhaps.

[@madisonbryant4417]

Good stuff dude, I've always loved your content. Keep it up bucko!

[@Kryptnyt]

I think Atronach is way stronger than Mage, easily the most powerful star sign. Though, I actually quite like managing my magicka and don't enjoy the sitting and spamming spells and waiting for an hour game. I think it would be pretty neat if a mod tweaked enemies so that they all had and used their star signs and racial abilities.

[@michaelrichard7948]

You are severely underrating the Atronach. It is so far ahead of every other sign in the game that they all look insignificant in comparison. If you're a warrior and not using Magicka, why do you care about it not restoring naturally then? If the Warrior sign is A tier because of the 10 endurance, the 50% spell absorb from The Atronach is going to give you far more defense on every character ever. Is stunted magicka annoying for mages? In the early game, sure. That's a small price to pay for 50 points in spell absorb though, especially since you can easily get 50 more points for 100% spell absorb.

[@theoldknight85]

@@michaelrichard7948 thanks for sharing. I disagree, I believe that stunted magicka is a massive inconvenience at every stage of the game, and the benefits don’t outweigh that. The warrior stone isn’t very good for warriors, as warriors are just bad in oblivion. It gives every character in the game 20 starting health, +1 hp on level up, and +50 carry weight. If enough people share your opinion maybe I’ll make a video later to go more in depth, but I feel that I addressed it well enough in this video. As just a quick addend, in my hard mode oblivion gates i am regenerating over 120 magicka per second. I don’t agree that stunted magicka is just rough early game.

[@tenjewishmen5322]

@@theoldknight85 Stunted magika is only an issue if you don't want to use the tools the game gives you to circumvent it. You could circumvent it by level 2 if you wanted to. But with the things you have at your disposal in the game, it is effectively 50% spell absorb and 150 magika with no downside. If you don't want to use the tools to circumvent the downside, that's all well and good, however, I wouldn't knock points for a sign changing how you need to play the game to be able to use it effectively. By that logic, the apprentice would be D-tier as the 100% weakness to magic is a death sentence in the mid to late game. Sure, I COULD stack buffs to offset that downside, but I see that as unfair. /s Does that mean that the apprentice is D-tier just because I don't want to offset its downside? I think not. Same reason I will stand by the Atronach being borderline the best sign in the game. As Todd Howard once said, "It just works"

[@vitriolicAmaranth]

There is literally a ruin lousy with welkynd stones right across the river from the tutorial toilet. Stunted magicka is never even an inconvenience given each of those is 200 minimum magicka scaling up to 350 later on, and spells earlygame cost a small fraction of that to cast. It changes mage gameplay, sure (it goes from "ignore welkynd stones because they're basically heavier magicka potions, and hide around a corner for 20 seconds to regeneraye magicka constantly" to "hoard welkynd stones because they are the fuel you turn into damage," which imo is a strict improvement in gamefeel, but we're talking objective advantages here), but no matter how you look at it the value add is overwhelmingly greater than any other sign at any point in the game. Putting it below S at all is like admitting you tried it out on a mage character when you first started playing, didn't know what you were doing, wandered around with a 0-magicka mage for a few hours and it left such a bad taste in your mouth that you cannot to this day admit how good it is.

[@testingheyo5087]

Stunted Magicka is barely an inconvenience. Just stock up on welkynd stones. Potions arent uncommon either. And if I'm absolutely in a pinch I just go into an oblivion gate or ayleid ruin and let the turrets shoot me.

[@testingheyo5087]

Also, as a Breton atronach you are functionally immune to magic. Add some reflect damage and you are literally invulnerable. Try to fight a clone of a high level breton atronach with good gear. You can't beat it without exploits.

[@ocignath3221]

The Lover birthsign is good for paralising that mythic dawn assasin at the tutorial dungeon, pickpocketing him and getting a free bound mace that never expires

[@tomaszpawlik5091]

as for the apprentice and atronach, you are underselling them. Yes, its bad that you have to learn to play around a thing that is meant to help you - but in difficulties above 50 you absolutely have to. The weakness to magicka unlocked before adept destruction is alone making this sign an SS tier for 100 diff

[@theoldknight85]

@@tomaszpawlik5091 thanks for the replies. I’m probably underselling the value of turn undead late game, and you’re right about powers not needing spell effectiveness, I should’ve talked about that. However the apprentice on max difficulty is a death sentence and probably the worst choice of all signs, unless you play near perfectly and don’t get hit by spells. Even in regular difficulty you feel like a glass cannon. By the time you unlock spell making, you could make a custom spell to grind destruction to 50 if you really believe that weakness to magic is necessary at that stage of the game.

[@tomaszpawlik5091]

@theoldknight85 undead imo are a big deal, generally demons are the meanest foes guarding the best treasures but from the greater soul tier monsters and above undead seem to win out - these wraiths and liches are a no joke when xilvail are an downgrade. its all about opportunity cost, why burn a game session grinding destro skill when you can spend it playing the game, or you can spend it grinding different skill who knows choices choices. The greatest character i ever built was an orc apprentice mage, being able to make uber enchanted weapons right from The stinky sewers is a big deal while normally i would have to either grind adept destro with a Giant exp nerf from minor skills or burn a few lvl ups, then a few quests later grab the jode and run around with short invicibility.

[@Green-Raccoon777]

Not to mention, the weakness to magicka can be undone via either resist, or reflect enchantments, meaning you essentially get a free 100 magicka boost so long as you keep your gear on.

[@testingheyo5087]

​​@@tomaszpawlik5091i studied loot tables one time and found that undead, goblin and daedric areas tend to be the worst. Ayleid ruins with monsters have the highest chance for enchanted jewelry. Bandits and marauders is highest for enchanted weapons and armor. Combined with the fact that undead has a high amount of levelled enemies late game, undead dungeons are often not worth your time.

[@tomaszpawlik5091]

@@testingheyo5087 the treasures of late game undead dungeons are the staves liches wield. The rewards for demons are not only their generally powerfull weapons, getting good dremora weapon in lvl1 kvatch is a big deal if its enchanted, not even only the hidden mace and bow but the alchemical ingridients - through daedra hearts alone you can break bank after leaving and actually using these in higher tier potions is even better

[@relaques666]

such a cozy video. i haven't played oblivion in ages

[@Souless6X]

There's a funny interaction with apprentice sign with self buffs because weakness to magic doesn't discriminate with good spells( Healing and shield) they get a 2x modifer

[@theoldknight85]

@@Souless6X you must be old school! This was only true a very long time ago, as it was fixed with the official oblivion patch. It can still work with reflected spells, but that’s quite a bit trickier to pull off.

[@nonifuji1566]

Great video, I'm going to replay it now

[@MagnetSphere-kc3gm]

as soon as i learned that reflect damage for custom spells was only obtainable from tower stone, thats all i pick now... still never made a spell with it because i always start a new character before theyre good enough lol

[@vitorfray]

Mage birthsign! Let's goooooo!

[@drkirbkennethkirby7634]

Atronach with High elf can lead to the most broke endgame build imaginable , if you can handle the headache

[@karamelflan]

The Atronach Birthsign to me is S tier for Intelligence-Willpower Alchemy-guzzlers. You can just go to a forest full of Steel-Blues and use that! And call Telekinesis cheating all you want, I can cast 100 points of fire, shock, and frost, weakness to magic, disintegrate armor for merely 135 magicka, and then just run away like a coward spamming Telekinesis and do it again! Haha! Also, staffs with Telekinesis also work. So you can add Soul Trap for 1 second in that magic I made and you can have a staff that restores magicka! It's really messed-up. It's more fun than a stealth archer.

[@karamelflan]

still, good video! everything on D I agree with.

[@roberthudson3386]

Personally, I disagree with the ratings of several birthsigns and also the justifications. The justification that because someone can get a better power from a heaven stone or doomstone, the power provided by a given birthsign isn't worth it, in particular I disagree with. For one thing, it relies on a player using a guide. That's a personal choice, but not everyone will do that. Many people want to play games without a guide. And these stones are way, way out in the wilderness. So much so that you are unlikely to stumble on them quickly while playing the game. So many players may never encounter these powers. Then even if they know where a stone is located, most of the powers granted are themselves Greater Powers. That means once per day. The powers from the birthsigns, even if inferior, are still useful as a backup power. I especially don't agree with having Shadow in the bottom tier. Invisibility is an awesome power that allows you basically escape from a near death combat situation, since enemies will basically stand motionless when you go invisible, giving you time to flee. I do use the Shadow personally because even though you can get invisibility spells, these start at Journeyman (level 50) Illusion so you can't use them right off the bat. I also don't find it enjoyable to play with unlimited invisibility since it takes all challenge out of the game. Also if I'm roleplaying a non-magic character or doing a challenge run, this is very useful. So the Shadow is at least B tier for me. I also wouldn't have Mage as S tier. A flat 50 points extra Magicka is nothing special. You can enchant, use Aylied Wells or potions, or whatever, to achieve a similar outcome. Personally I think the list would depend on your playstyle and build. Now again this comes down to how you play, since some players will not roleplay and will just use stealth, combat and magic all in one character, but I hate doing that personally. I'm roleplaying a character with strengths and weaknessnes, not some demigod who can just do anything. The best for stealth is Thief for me due to its 30-point total bonus to stats and bonuses to Luck, Luck being the one stat that's very difficult to increase since you can only increase it by one per level. Agility also helps with bow damage and balance, and Speed is great for staying out of range, making it a fantastic sign for archers. I prefer Apprentice over Mage for mage builds. But of course both are only useful if you are actually playing a magic oriented character. Mage is useless for non-magic characters and only moderately useful for magic users, in my opinion. But each to their own. Atronach is generally not so great for magic builds, but is highly useful for defensive warriors due to the magic resistance. For warriors, I prefer Ritual or Lord over Warrior itself. Lord's healing spell is the best you can get until you get to the late game and you don't need to level Restoration to use it. It's insanely good and stacks, making you a troll on steroids. The minor weakness is nothing in comparison!

[@solaurelian7638]

1 minute in "The warrior is A Tier, so I dont recommend it" DAMN I dont wanna see how bad the other ones are if that one is A tier and its still bad.

[@theoldknight85]

@@solaurelian7638 😂 it’s powerful for warriors, but warriors are terrible in oblivion. You need magic, and anything that isn’t boosting that just isn’t worthwhile. The only thing I’ve changed my mind on after reading comments is the ritual, turn undead is pretty useful, I just never use it.

[@vitriolicAmaranth]

Real ranks: S = atronach, thief A = apprentice, warrior, lady B = mage, steed C = lover, lord D = tower, ritual, serpent, shadow Luck is capped at 1/level, and the thief not only gives a substantial earlygame performance advantage but also significantly reduces the burden of the game's broken leveling system. It also gives a 30 point net attribute bonus. 50 spell absorb is overwhelmingly powerful and directly in front of you when you leave the tutorial sewer is a dungeon full of like 30 welkynd stones, making the earlygame stunted magicka downside effectively meaningless if you're actually playing a mage, in which case the incomparable bonus to max magicka would be incredible on its own given how welkynd stones work. Atronach is by far the best sign no matter your class/build/playstyle. Apprentice's huge magicka bonus is incredible for mage characters; unlike atronach, it's useless for non-casters. However, the weakness "downside" is exploitable for hyperbuffs. I almost want to push mage to C just to highlight how significant the extra effects of apprentice and atronach are. 10 points of endurance at the outset are second only to 10 points of luck imo and attribute bonuses in general are great to have, but I do think endurance is a bit of a red herring for minmaxers; by lategame you're so resistant to damage that differences in hp total are almost arbitrary, earlygame the returns aren't crazy, and midgame you're more likely going to just be fortifying hp/endurance with enchantments anyway. 50 points of magicka with no downside is great (for casters only, for non-casters the (other) attribute bonuses are strictly better; do note that the only thing that makes the mage different from a 25 point attribute bonus (all in intelligence) is that it doesn't count against the attribute cap, which makes it, imo, on-par with an early endurance bonus, the only bonus that counts for more the earlier you get it); with that said, speed is great but it's the easiest attribute to boost by 5 every level and also the least objectively useful of all the offerings in that category. Lover has the most useful of the greater power effects (early paralysis access with all that entails), lord has a useful lesser power (which is, like, not that useful longterm, it just puts it over the D tier). Both are good earlygame but mage-sign-on-a-warrior tier lategame. Any sign that relies on a greater power had better have one that is utterly gamechanging in at least the earlygame to even land C tier. Unfortunately only the Lover does, so the others get D tier for being almost useless even at level 1. To clarify the magicka bonus/early endurance/luck bonus thing, I'm breaking down the utility like this. Ordinarily magicka comes from intelligence, at a rate of 2 mag per int, so for example 50 magicka is effectively a 25 intelligence bonus and 150 is a 75(wow!) int bonus. However, int softcaps at 100, and by increasing magicka directly those three signs effectively raise int by 25/50/75 AND raise the int cap by the same amount, which is very significant. With luck, my position is less firm or unassailable. My rationale is based on luck being the slowest skill to raise, as it can only ever be raised by 1 per level. However, luck's bonuses also fall off lategame (a strange quirk for an attribute that can normally only hit its cap at level 40 or 50 anyway), as its most important function is unilaterally boosting every skill with a hidden bonus, but that boost can't go over an invisible effective value of 100. However, luck has several proven and many suspected effects beyond this and all other attributes can be potentially raised by 5 per level, so if one's goal is ultimately to raise every attribute to 100, the Thief sign is worth 14 level pips while all other attribute signs are worth only 4 or 6 and even the atronach is worth barely more, the equivalent of 15. However, in retrospect, the thief should probably be A-tier, also to highlight just how excellent and ridiculous the atronach is. 15 attribute utils, 75 point cap boost on int, 50% spell absorb and an effectively trivial downside. Endurance, unlike intelligence, does not flatly scale max health (ie health is not simply endurance×2), and there is a permanent extra hp value added each level that scales on endurance, and also a bonus applied when you level endurance on levelup. So say your character has 50 endurance until level 30, then takes 5 endurance every level til 40. That will garner 29*5 = 145 extra points of max health up to 30, then 10*10 = 100 for taking 5 points each level, and 10+12+14+16+18 = 70 for the level-by-level bonus, for a total of 100*2 (base hp bonus from end) + 145 + 170 = 415 max hp at level 40. Take the same character and growth pattern but start it at 60 end and you get 29*6 = 174, 6*10 = 60, and 12+14+16+18+20 = 80 for the final ten levels, for a total of 514 hp at level 40, or 99 more, just from sitting on those 10 extra end from, say, the warrior sign. That is also why endurance-boosting races are among the best (along with, similar to signs, those that provide passive magic resistance and imcreased base magicka), because endurance is the only attribute that matters more the earlier you take it.

[@5XEwgf]

Magic is op in oblivion all thanks to custom spells

[@theoldknight85]

@@5XEwgf nah it’s just the right amount of power. These types of games need that kinda stuff. People don’t like oblivion as much because they try a warrior or bow build without magic and they say everything is a damage sponge.

[@5XEwgf]

@@theoldknight85 Pretty much everything you can do with other skills you can do better with magic. Playing oblivion as a non-magic focused character feels just like handicpping yourself unneccesarily so I've always went just for a high elf with atronach or apprentice build

[@krzysztofcyran3593]

First