Ethanol Tuning | What AFR Should I Target? [HPA Q&A]

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[@boosthit811]

And that answer is what separates hpa from the rest! Class.

[@pumduceu]

Ok but.... What is that target AFR?

[@stevenmejia4982]

Definitely going to become a student in the future. Thank you for making this accessible.

[@injecttuning]

You guys do great work

[@rotorblade9508]

basically if you calibrate for e85, when the sensor reports no unburned fuel and no oxygen left meaning stoichiometric the indicator will show lambda 1 and AFR 9:7. the ecm will idle at stoichiometric no matter what you see on the display. if you let the calibration for pure gas, will show 14.7. and lambda 1. if you want to tune the car for different ratios you will need to know for each fuel what to target. if you are used to pure gasoline tuning and leave calibration on gas then if you target 10:1 at wot you will read 10:1 but the actual mixture will be below 9:1. which might be ok but you are better with targeting using proper calibration and recommended targets for that fuel or just using lambda but again you then need the lambda’s for cruise, WoT and all other situations

[@joernsaermark]

I dont really get this. Even if you tune e85 in the lambda scale, you're still aiming for lambda 1, which is 14,7. Which tells me that it does matter what fuel you're running. So, would'nt you have to change the lambda 1 setting to be 9,8:1? But then, how do you measure that and fatter? If a normal widebandsensor sends a 0-5v signal, which corresponds to 10:1 and 19:1, how does that work with ethanol? #confused

[@ryancrisp6786]

Lambda 1 = Stoichiometric = most complete burn. Lambda 1 is 14.7 AFR for gasoline. Lambda 1 is 9.8 AFR for Ethanol. You can't change what Lambda is, you change what AFR is required to to achieve Lambda 1.

[@BulliKid]

So if I run let’s say a extra gallon of E85 with my regular 93 fill up and let’s say my car is e20 mix. If I am using afr I have to lower the stoich from 14.7 to about 13. And wot from 12.6 now I need to adjust table to target 11.2 Where if I used lambda with the same blend e20, Lambda stoich 1 And wot .76 Am I understanding this right???

[@dennisrobinson8008]

For running on boost during cruising you want less closer to 13:1.

[@littleherms3285]

It really doesn't matter, Lambda 1 is the "perfect" ratio for all fuels, even Nitro Methane. We all know a wideband samples and reads in Lambda then reports in whatever you set it to. Id you like Lambda, use that, if you like gas AFR, use that. As long as you know the data chain that got you to that # the rest is just mentally playing with yourself. As soon as you are not on pure gas any more you are on a representative # that is not the "actual" AFR #...who cares, its no less accurate than the Lambda # that is also "just a representative #". I prefer gas AFR #s because there is a bit more resolution and they are #s I like to look at. I also tuned with narrow band 02s 30 years ago and still have those #s burned into my brain and Lambda would just confuse the situation.

[@MrHC1983]

Your too nice about lambda vs AFR.... more and more cars self adjust based on the ethanol percentage in the fuel. Even if you run E10/E94 commonly here in Australia it will need to drop into that 14.1 for stoich range. Now if your a tuner that aims for the leanest mixture say 13.1 for a NA V8.... That's actually going to wind up being around 13.7 AFR if your using the 14.68 AFR in that form which is rather dangerous if your also pushing timing to get the most out of it as it's leaner then you think doing it that way. Lambda is the only way to go. Set up your gauge to suit the fuel your tuning on and then run lambda...... so it's accurate. Many cars have self adjusting tables and the ability to change the axis on the % of ethanol to the alternate table. This is great because it allows you to essentially setup quite a range........... You can either go a safe setup or if you know exactly what the cars used for........... cross between say 98 and E10.......... (excluding 91-95). That way you can adjust the timing to suit each fuel as it crosses tables instead of just having a 'downgrade' type setup when it detects knocking. That way your always in top form. So again your are WAY too nice about this AFR when it comes to ethanol percentages. It's flat out dangerous to do it that was ESPECIALLY if your running any sort of boost. Truth is........ if your a tuner and you haven't discovered this method yet, once you do........ and you have an ethanol sensor in play you'll realise how much quicker it is to actually tune a car using this method. It's better all around, not just for a dyno pull and open loop but closed loop at well.

[@RyanDohertyRacing]

Better question which Andre may have been sort of touched on in the video is can e85 cruise safely on a leaner mixture than stoichiomoetric lambda 1 which would hypothetically be great since we can increase fuel mileage during idle and cruise which is typically shit on e85… Andre, What say you?

[@littleherms3285]

Do it all the time, my lean cruise is always bouncing between 14.5 and 15.2 on the gas scale. I just keep leaning until it stumbles a bit then fatten up a touch.

[@dennisrobinson8008]

​@@littleherms3285have you messed with burning even leaner on e85? Such as 1.10 to 1.15 lambda?

[@littleherms3285]

@@dennisrobinson8008 I take it right until it runs like shit at steady cruise and fatten till it doesn't stumble any more. I don't use Lambda, I refuse...lol. Gas scale is just fine, 15.5 is about as lean as it'll go before the annoying bucking starts.

[@321ror]

Thanks for the informative info. What about users running a mix of both pump + meth for example do you have to work out a weighted average mix between the two standalone ratios?

[@TheCarPassionChannel]

To my knowledge, the wideband I use intakes data in Lambda and then converts them to AFR, but always in "gasoline" numbers. So whether I run 10 or 50 or 85% ethanol, the ECU will always target 11.5:1 AFR or so in boost. Is that accurate, or would it still be technically better to tune with Lambda values?

[@charlespetersonii6989]

Stoich for gasoline AFR is around 14.7 and E85 is around 9.75. If you are switching fuels I would use lambda because the fuel doesnt effect the lambda number but its different using afr. Basically if tuning Lambda your stoich is always 1 no matter the fuel your running. Not the case for AFR. Gas- around 14.7AFR E85- around 9.75 AFR.

[@TheCarPassionChannel]

@@charlespetersonii6989 Correct, but the wideband uses lambda but converts the number on screen to "gasoline AFR". So regardless of the ethanol % in the fuel, at 0.8 lambda the gauge will always display 11.8:1 even though that's not the real AFR. It's essentially lambda tuning but the numeric value displayed is just different.

[@joelhernandez393]

@@TheCarPassionChannel so if I tune for normal afr with ethanol will the targets be the same? From what I read yes it will but a lot of what I read is from miata forums an such. What afr are you using in boost and low load with e85?

[@TheCarPassionChannel]

@@joelhernandez393 about 11.7 in boost and 15.0 in low load, but those values are converted from Lambda to "Gas AFR". So the actual E85 ratios are about 7.8:1 in boost and 10.0:1 in low load, but those aren't displayed on my gauge. Depends how your gauge/ECU displays, and that's exactly why it's important to know before you start tuning

[@joelhernandez393]

@@TheCarPassionChannel ok yeah I'm pretty sure my aem x series reads as 14.65= 1 lambda and converts it so I can use normal afr

[@DxsPro]

how is the AFR the same for ethanol if you need 40% more ethanol?? From what i read 9:1 AFR is stoich for eth, which is lambda 1... where as petrol 14.7:1 AFR is stoich which is lamda 1.. o2 sensors give voltage based on stoich/lambda.. so when the o2 sensor reads lambda 1 the gauge will show afr of 14.7 because it is a petrol calibrated afr gauge, but if you run ethanol, when the sensor is lambda 1 because the eth afr is 9:1, the gauge will still show 14.7 because its set for petrol which assumes lambda 1 must be 14.7 because you must be running on petrol.

[@jamesgarcia8194]

I think you’ve answered what I came here for - cheers 🤣 I’m running E85 on my 86 and have an AEM gauge; it sits around 14.7 but started to get confused when I learnt the stoich measurements for ethanol... thanks for the clarification, I think it’s all calibrated for regular petrol!

[@littleherms3285]

Don't even bother mind humping yourself over that. Lambda is 14.65 on the gas scale, E85 is still a perfect mix at Lambda 1 AND 14.65 on the gas scale... the volume of fuel has increased but the 02 doesn't give a crap about that. I've been running boost on E10, E40, E60 with an "AFR" of 11.5 for years and the plugs always look the same. Once you don't have pure gas in the tank the "AFR" # now becomes a representative # instead of an actual air to fuel ratio just like the Lambda # is. They are still the same accurate # though.

[@BEYTEK]

im tuning ethanol for a while but recently ethanol and nitro.,. its mental

[@hpa101]

Steep learning curve for you, or just great results? PS: Hope you're keeping well dude! - Taz.

[@BEYTEK]

​@@hpa101 Yo Taz, Ethanol was no problem but because of the oxygenated mix with nitro i had to add an extra 35% fuel on top of the extra for ethanol to get me in the ballpark and 60hp difference between pump fuel and eth/nitro at same timing boost. Defiantly cant push timing with it. It liked a timing curve close to pump fuel even with being mixxed with ethanol. but required allot more fuel. I end up running out of pump flow before i could get to high boost so gave up at that point 713bhp, Now im at the stage where i either use X2 pumps and have allot of electrical load.. or 1 big pump without the reliability or go mechanical pump. Im just swaying all options. ill be using an SSR for pump speed pwm control through the maxxecu though. , Hope you guys are well. Gav

[@Onalky87]

So if my car is tuned on 93 octane and I retune for e85 and don’t change any wideband setting but keep afr at 11.5:1, does that mean it’s a lot leaner than 11.5? I never changed it bc I figured since it’s an oxygen sensor, not a fuel sensor it didn’t matter what fuel was in there the ratio would be accurate

[@W5rr2nG]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnrYioWMnLKfesk

[@camaro69blk]

If the tuner dialed in a/f to 11.5 on e85 but on the gas scale like most tuners do, then its a safe ratio. 02 just thinks that its still gasoline, but it doesnt really matter because ethanol responds very similar to lean and rich ratios just like gasoline. Your car is still getting more fuel than it would be on gas. 11.5 is similar to like 8.0 on e85

[@meetthecarolinas9638]

On the gasoline scale, 11.5 is horribly lean for E85.

[@camaro69blk]

No. 11.5 gas scale is rich wether its e85 or gas

[@lsxtuner6126]

@@meetthecarolinas9638 No it's not. The sensor reads in lambda and converts it to AFR on the gauge. 11.5 on the gas scale is the typical target for both pump gas and ethanol. It's about 0.78 lambda for E85 in boost which converts to about 11.5 on the gas scale.

[@BulliKid]

Will lambda work if you are blending gasoline and e85?

[@hpa101]

It's not E85 if you're adding more gasoline. Then it becomes E something else. 50/50 would be E50 for example. Lambda remains the same regardless of rhe stoichiometric ratio, yes, that is the beauty of using it when you tune using a variety of fuels rather than trying to remember a specific afr and where you are relative to stoich off the cuff. You know what side of stoich you are at Lambda 0.90 for ethanol or gasoline for example and by how much - Taz.

[@BulliKid]

@@hpa101 yes I want to add 1-2 gallons of e85 to my 93 octane gasoline. I’m limiting it to only few gallons not to exhaust my returnless fuel system. Will my factory 02 sensor understand lambda?

[@hpa101]

It completely depends on the car. Many are flex-fuel capable from factory commonly to E30 and some even to E85 as well. Your owner's manual will tell you specifically for your specific car, I would only be guessing to tell you if it would be fine or not and it's not something that should be guessed. Not the answer you were looking for I know but hope it helps and it is something you can Google to find if you no longer have that manual handy, again noting it is specific to your car - Taz.

[@BulliKid]

@@hpa101 thanks Taz.

[@hpa101]

No worries 🤘

[@dennisrobinson8008]

Has anyone expiramement with a lean burn on e85 with 1.1 to 1.15 lambda?

[@JoseGarcia-se4nn]

Sería estupendo que los vídeos fueran subtitulados ó remarcar los datos importantes con imágenes que resuman el vídeo,me interesa mucho toda la información que publicáis,pero nunca entiendo nada por el idioma 😓

[@GillesXorTvrCerberaAddiction]

me too ;)

[@cracktimmy]

Andre I’m sure I’m over thinking but is it the same for tuning E30 or E50/60?

[@danspeed7039]

Tuning a e30 or e60 BMW?

[@ReubenHorner]

@@danspeed7039 He is meaning the amount of ethanol vs gasoline. e30 = 30% ethanol

[@Nebbia_affaraccimiei]

no. you generally have e5 for petrol and e85 for ethanol. everything in between needs a blend

[@meetthecarolinas9638]

As he said, in the lambda scale, it makes no difference what your fuel mix is.

[@erikarevalo1874]

💯

[@panic7553]

my afr is 10.1:1 is that normal ?

[@BulliKid]

So long story short. When you do 50/50 gasoline and e85 You need to add more fuel duty to achieve same afr.

[@littleherms3285]

Yup

[@SpeedDemonCBR]

Technically 100% gas is 14.7 afr where modern pump gas has up to 10% ethanol in it will have a 14.08-14.1 afr

[@hpa101]

Technically ethanol content will actually depend on your location and fuel supplier. There are no hard and fast rules - Taz.

[@SpeedDemonCBR]

@@hpa101 I noticed my brothers 2016 GMC Sierra has a target afr of 14.1 and my 2011 Camaro SS has a target afr of 14.7 so I was curious as to why and that’s the answer I came up with from everywhere I looked. You have been doing this longer than I have that was just my 2 cents lol

[@fasnuf]

I only tune on Lambda....so much easier

[@hpa101]

We're big fans of Lambda too - Taz.

[@danspeed7039]

The question was answered

[@jameschaffe694]

No it wasn’t 😂 what we wanted to know is that you can target a leaner AFR/lambda with alcohol. All we got was that the petrol AFR scale is not the ethanol AFR scale but yes you can use it to make sense of lambda if you’re not used to working in lambda.

[@meetthecarolinas9638]

The question “What is a good air/fuel ratio to aim for when running on ethanol?” mentions nothing about rich vs lean. Also doesn’t mention at what loads. Idle? WOT? Cruising? Also, this question has already been answered in the forums. www.hpacademy.com/forum/understanding-afr/show/e85-max-power-lambda-value-copare-gas-pump-fuel

[@camaro69blk]

They already covered that in a previous video. Took their frs race car at a steady state load on the dyno and added in and took away fuel to see maximum torque. The car made max torque at about 13.2 afr, but it was fairly steady down to about 12.6. So they tuned it a bit richer in order to be safe with combustion temperatures since power gains were miniscule. This is on the gas scale and naturally aspirated mind you. Cruising you can tune to pretty much as lean as the car will take before it starts running rough and then richen it back up a tad. Ive gotten cars up to high 15's afr. Part throttle is usually around stoich or a bit richer.

[@mattnsac]

@@jameschaffe694 leaner compared to what? I dont think you know/understand what youre asking.

[@jameschaffe694]

steelmesh I know, thanks. 👍 I was tuning with m20 yesterday, with flex fuel ⛽️

[@timhewitt8376]

Just can't understand him probably a great video.......

[@hpa101]

If only there were captions.

[@flyonbyya]

I’m confused... Lol

[@W5rr2nG]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnrYioWMnLKfesk