Evan Edinger lied about being fluent in German using Duolingo

[@evan]

There are many reasons I felt I needed to make this video, but I feel foolish I didn’t make the video only 5 minutes long focusing on the bit I touched upon but didn’t outright say. You’ll never really agree with someone if you’re both arguing over different definitions of a word. You’re both right using your respective definitions. If your definition of fluency is the C2 native level oh boy I do not fit that. If your definition of fluency is more lenient at a C1 level of fluency, I am also definitely not there! I have never once claimed to be there ofc as that’d be not true, and in fact last month I said as such I don’t actually plan on it. For me, I enjoy learning German and Spanish atm and my personal goal is to be conversationally fluent in the languages. Every German-speaking country I visit, I can interact with people there in German and get away with never using English. My Spanish has been catching up to that too! That’s been my goal :) I’m fairly certain I’ve literally always said this, and so I believe this is where a lot of the confusion with the other video stems from. Placing their own definition of fluency upon me, I will fail every time. That’s what the dick-measuring contest comment was about. I’ve seen these arguments pop up in a lot of language learning circles online, and I’ve always considered making a video pointing out the issue with the arguments. But when I have someone using so much of my content over the years in their own to try and make these bad arguments I think that just boiled me over. In reality, I hold no ill will against the KZbinr in question just against the way they forced their definition of fluency on me using my 5 year old content to make arguments I so strongly disagree with. Perfect storm really. I genuinely hope they continue learning the languages that they enjoy to whatever level brings them the most happiness. But I equally hope the content they choose to make going forward motivates people to learn languages rather than demotivate.

[@AdZS848]

That's awesome! I wish you luck on you language-learning journey, particularly with German -- it's so hard! Wirklich schwer!! You might have more luck than I do with it cause you are good at math and German is a mathematical language IMO, like algebra.

[@xanderro14]

His point in the video was about how inefficient it is to learn with Duolingo compared to many other resources. And that probably you not using Duolingo but using anyting else would take you to this C1, C2 fluency in a shoorter period of time. It could have been done by him in such a nicer way, without sponsor added in the video and without including any stream footage, that's for sure. But I also don't think there is a point of being so defensive about it. Why not embrace it and just check it out? You're not merried to Duolingo, why not doing 3 months challenge trying only different apps, books and courses?

[@elkeklein]

Greetings from Köln. So glad you added this caveat to your video, since I was about to raise just the topic "fluency definition". You beat me to it! I must admit, II did go back your "old" video (the one where you said that you were conversationally fluent) and my initial reaction was: uhm.. not so much.... it wasn't the error that stuck out to me, it was more the fact that you still had some difficulties finding words etc. Then again, you found them in the end, and that's what counts. The rest is just "speak and repeat (muscle memory)". C1/C2 fluency is what in Germany we would define as"verhandlungssicher" i.e. you will be able to negotiate (in the business sense), whether that be verbally or in writing. So that may be where the confusion arose. But really, who gives a shit, what method you use in order to learn, how long it takes you learn etc. You are doing this for yourself and your brain will love you for it. I am not a fan of Duolingo (I tried it and got bored very quickly with the repetitive nature of the excercises; but that's not to say that it's a bad app. One more point that no one seems to have taken into consideration: learning a foreign language also depends on aptitude. Even in the classic classroom setting there will be students who progress faster than others..... Current status: You can live in Germany and speak and manage daily life in our language, which is a lot more than can be said for a lot of US/UK expats who still don't speak a word of German after living here for 10 years. So cudos to you! And your German is not bad at all, even it's not C1/C2 standard (yet). Bis dahin: rede einfach wie dir der Schnabel gewachsen ist . VG Elke

[@PeterPrestonUK]

why should Evan change what is working for him just because somebody else doesn't like that method? The very start of my problem with that video is that he photoshopped Evan's thumbnail. That is fraud and not even an acceptable 'MISTAKE' @@xanderro14

[@evan]

@@xanderro14idk man if I went to your workplace and took a shit on your desk and then smugly said “this shit was sponsored by Sainsbury’s” I don’t think you’d be too keen to go to Sainsbury’s anytime soon. I do use many other sources that I’ve talked about at length in many videos. And my system works quite well for me so I don’t need Mr random Airplane man to give me advice as if I WERE looking for advice I’d actually go to an expert and not someone pretending to be one online 🫡

[@savannah4439]

This is the nerdiest KZbinr drama I’ve ever seen lol

[@saturnenott6922]

AHAHAHHAHA

[@umrzemy]

true

[@bumblebeesusan8034]

Hey Evan. I'm learning scottish Gaelic through duolingo and while I'm not fluent, I was able to exchange greeting and pleasantries while on the Isle of Lewis in the outer hebrides where there Gaelic is the native language and there are more native speakers than other areas of Scotland. While I was nervous about using the language as a tourist, the folks I spoke to were impressed that I'd even taken the tome to learn, and then to actually use it. I was very proud of myself too. So ill keep using duolingo and practicing so I can say more than basic pleasantries.

[@vatnidd]

'S math sin!

[@julieturner5037]

Sin sibh fhèin!

[@cloudyskies5497]

That's wonderful, great work and keep it up! I came to Duolingo because they had Welsh and I was having a hard time finding it on other apps.

[@israellai]

​@@cloudyskies5497pob lwc!

[@OZdoesArt]

I love Gaelic!! While Duolingo frustrates me sometimes, I'm so thankful that Gaelic is available for free when other services don't have it at all. When paired with sites like SpeakGaelic and people like Gaelic with Jason here on KZbin it's been super helpful for me.

[@NoorAnomaly]

I've lived in the US for 15+ years. English isn't my native language, but I consider myself fluent in it. Even so, I have moments where my brain switches English off and I just can't remember the words. It happens. Doesn't mean I'm not fluent. Don't get let haters get to you.

[@tsunderewaifu]

My grandma lived in US for over 40 years and forgets words in English all the time too. It is crazy how the human brain works.

[@DarthDionius]

Hell, I've been a native Englishman in the UK for 37 years and even I forget words sometimes. The whole "It's on the tip of my tongue..." thing. Elitist takes on language learning do nothing but harm for other people trying to learn, and for your own agenda.

[@PunkWasp666]

English is my native language and I constantly mix up, forget, and stumble over my words. It's normal. It doesn't matter how fluent you are in a language IMO.

[@TNJenni42]

yeah I'm sure many people forget words occasionally in their native language. Usually happens to me when I'm either really tired, or overwhelmed.

[@GESS]

The funny thing people forget is that we have to search for words in our native language all the time too 😂

[@nusajagodic5770]

Duolingo is a great resource to start you off learning a language. Does it have issues? Oh yes. Does it take dedication and some googling of questions? Yes, just like any other course ever. Does it make you C2 fluent? Hell no. Is it worth it? YES. Different tools for different needs. Why is that so hard to understand?

[@evan]

Yeah, it's so bizarre that by saying you use duolingo, these gatekeeping gremlins come out of the woodworks to be like "YOU WON'T MAKE IT TO C2" like... duh? Was that... ever lightly implied?

[@justanotherpiccplayer3511]

Whilst I was doing my masters I didn't have time to do any more than 5 mins of duo every day and it kept me learning German 👍 Now I have time to do more!

[@pjschmid2251]

Yeah, I’ve just been trying out Duolingo since I haven’t been anywhere near German in like 40 years and it’s been fun. The two things that I wish it had is in the word review I wish you gave me the gender of the nouns so when I’m reviewing it, I could reinforce that. I also wish it had some kind of text based area that explained things about grammar so that I could have a basis for understanding things like dein vs deinem, der vs den, in vs ins etc. they just put them into sentences in the proper context, but it makes it hard for you to grasp the rule that’s underlying the choice of word. But that’s just the way my brain works.

[@putinisakiller8093]

The more other sources someone has to use except fot the main app, the worse the main app is. Isn't it obvious? So Dio can't be great at any stage of studying. But it can be used. I myself use it. But I see how the app is getting worse.

[@nusajagodic5770]

@@putinisakiller8093 that's true of any method of learning. No method is perfect for every person and every situation. So I don't know what your point is.

[@havehope_0623]

After a year of German on Duolingo I placed at B1 on a placement test. The placement test was at the Germanic American Institute, not some random online test. I'm continuing to learn German on Duolingo and I'm taking classes as well.

[@swordsandstoriesgaming]

I'm going to hit my 1 year streak on Duolingo tomorrow because of you making it seem so fun, I'm no where near fluent but I occasionally recognize German words in the world around me and films and I get super excited, and that's pretty neat

[@evan]

It IS neat!

[@italorossid]

Duolingo took me to A2 in Dutch. I took an onboarding test arriving in Amsterdam after a few years using it on and off and got placed in an "A2 to A2+" course, which is Code+ part 3 for those curious/familiar with the method. I've now completed "B1 to B1+" and will take it to B2 in a few months as I integrate to life in the Netherlands in parallel and also take care of my master's program.

[@evan]

that's amazing!

[@thebirdchannelforfans623]

Cool! I took the the Dutch course on Duolingo as well. I love how they keep mentioning rhinoceroses whenever possible or "neushoorns." I’ve also been watching short films and shows in Dutch and conversing with people in Dutch whenever possible

[@theavocadoguitarist.1823]

One thing I love about the dutch course is how out there some of the first phrases you learn are. Like in the top used languages, Duolingo's like, "let's start with asking for tea and coffee at a cafe!" But by like Lesson 3, I was literally asked to translate "you people are like sheep," into Dutch. Like, DAYUM. That's some bold language to use coming right out of the bat!

[@thebirdchannelforfans623]

@@theavocadoguitarist.1823 I absolutely love that about the Dutch course! My mom took it up as well and we’ve been laughing about that together

[@theresamnsota3925]

The Norwegian course has me worried. I’ve learned that my microwave is watching me.

[@hitsugiluva]

Even IF it did take you 8 years to learn a language...how is that bad??? You learned another language on your own. That's a huge accomplishment.

[@caioferrari1744]

by no means it is bad or not impressive, the thing is that it could take much less to get to the same result

[@Rubz3211]

@@caioferrari1744 if you put a lot more money or a lot more time into it, then maybe, yeah. But maybe someone doesn't have either of those in abundance so duolingo is ideal.

[@chesslover8829]

​@caioferrari1744 Gifted people learn faster than the average individual. Some never learn a second language no matter how hard they try.

[@H.O.P.E222]

@@chesslover8829facts

[@chesslover8829]

@nickpavia9021 I'm studying German. English and German are not that similar. The grammar is different between the two languages, and the sounds made by pronouncing various letter combinations in German compared with English are different.

[@christopherrivera5924]

I didn't find that Lamont was attacking you, nor was he trying to be shitty to you, but using you as an example to make a point about using DuoLingo, in terms of time effectiveness. It's good you added context around the timing and background of the video he included.

[@evan]

Well he also used another clip of me out of context where I said very recently “I couldn’t speak the language” as I felt I’d lost my confidence with it a couple months back and used that to paint this picture like I could never??? Idk, just really shitty behaviour regardless of intent.

[@christopherrivera5924]

@@evan I definitely see your point about it, and I think your feelings are valid.

[@LiiMuRi]

I used Duolingo in the beginning when I was learning French, Portuguese and German. In all cases, I started with Duo before moving to a new country, and then had language courses and tried to use the language when living there. For me, Duo is perfect to start with, to get to know basic words and sentences. It makes the starting of a life in a new country or a course much easier when you have a bit of knowledge. After starting the courses, I always kind of stopped using Duo. For me a course is much more effective, but obviously takes more time and money. Use all the resources available, if you like them!

[@oooohokay]

I’ve commented similar stuff on your videos before, but I can’t understate how much your original video changed my life. I happened upon it one day when I decided I wanted to learn German and it gave me the confidence to start learning bit by bit each day until eventually I had finished the whole tree back in 2019. I then started taking classes and private lessons and got the money together to get to the airport (lol) and move to Germany. Within one year I was at a B1 level and continued my studies here. Now I live and work in Germany with my German boyfriend and speak at a high C1 level. Was it only duolingo and your video that got me here? Obviously not. Did they make a huge difference in the first year of my learning? Heck yeah! Your tips in that video gave me the first push to realize my goal was achievable and I just started chipping away at them bit by bit. I’ll never understand the desire in the language learning community to tear other people and their progress down because they have a different method. My mantra: the best method to learn a language is the method you spend the most time doing. Ignore all the grifters out there who tell you their way is the only way. Mix and match and see what sticks for you! You got this 🎉

[@clsisman]

I think your analogy of weight loss was pristine because I have genuinely had people say to me that I’m not taking the most efficient route to losing weight and I should be intermittent fasting/running etc. and I think we all know those people are massive tools.

[@willdegra317]

yeah, just do what works for you. People are weird like that. I say "oh, I cut out bread" and they immediately yell "I HAVE to eat bread!" I didn't say *you* had to cut out bread. I'm just saying what worked for me. you do you

[@LOKITYZ]

What's the difference between someone being a massive tool and someone who genuinely wants to help you by providing you with methods that could possibly be more efficient or effective?

[@clsisman]

@@LOKITYZ whether or not they were asked for

[@LOKITYZ]

@@clsisman Ah, I see. Different cultures.

[@clsisman]

@@LOKITYZ ...Maybe? I think if you ask literally any fat person from any culture if they would recommend you give fat people unsolicited weight loss tips they will say no.

[@miguelcubero3440]

I think yo both were addressing two different audiences. Yours was the general community space of KZbin (informational, hobby, fun) and his was the language learning base and those looking for solutions to their problems, (educational Langauge, solution finding. [I did watch both videos]. Great work in your content, would like to see more language content from you Evan, all the best.

[@tutacat]

"You cannot learn cooking from a recipe book, you have to go in blind and make your own recipes, and you have to learn in tbe country that originally invented the food"

[@joshina4497]

yooo this is so entertaining, I'm a viewer of both channels and have watched both takes on duolingo, but I did not expect this to turn into beef. Getting the popcorn....

[@avionaanna3794]

Hey Evan, German native here. We would call it a ,,Schwanzvergleich“ in everyday conversations. The Schwanzvermessungswettbewerb sounds a bit formal.

[@evan]

A very formal dick measuring contest haha yeah that makes more sense

[@questrequested9171]

if "oh they made a mistake in their learning language, clearly DuoLingo doesn't work" would be valid, any method of learning a language (or anything for that matter lol) wouldn't work. I still make plenty of mistakes in Dutch (which is my native language). so i guess all the school systems i had through learning Dutch, all the time from spending with my parents is a bad learning method... huh...

[@thegreatsalad]

It's cool to think how many people have taken up a language thanks to Evan's videos. It's obvious that language learning is a source of joy in his life ✨. Btw, I watched Lamont's video and was curious how you would reply. Not for the drama, but because I spend more time learning about language learning than actually learning a language 😅. I drink the theory stuff up! I've been watching both of you for a while. I've seen him apologise to Ikenna before and I hope he reaches out to you. He's not a bad guy.

[@evan]

I honestly doubt he’s a bad guy. I do not know him. Sure he’s great craic at the pub with some multilingual banter. Just not a fan of his current absolutist beliefs on learning and the “do what I can to get views” mentality.

[@chesslover8829]

​@@evanI blocked Lamont's KZbin channel after I challenged his questionable language learning expertise and after receiving a snarky reply from him. He's truly ignorant about how to learn a language. He spends far too much time using disconnected analogies to explain language-learning concepts, which he doesn't really understand, instead of giving us concrete methods of how to acquire a new language. The truth is he doesn't know. You asked why anti-Duolingo critics exist? The answer is simple: elitist snobs are everywhere for any given subject; they see Duolingo as a joke, but fail to realize that Duolingo uses elementary language building blocks in the form of subject-verb-object phrases in order to create the necessary neural pathways in the brain for one to actually learn a language. Even the most casual observer should realize that Duolingo is only a gateway and that other learning materials are required to gain language mastery. For me, Duolingo is that gateway.

[@chesslover8829]

@@yummydragon8533 It's all about aptitude and the ability to acquire a new language along with the willingness to expend considerable time and energy in the learning process.

[@sarafisher6490]

Is Duolingo perfect no, but does it allow me have fun learning languages yes. It has allowed me to build a base so that I can incorporate watching movies or listening to podcasts in French. Duolingo has allowed me to engage with my friends and family for a few minutes a day instead of wasting time on social media.

[@haukenot3345]

I'm definitely not the most consistent Duolingo user, but I have used the app on and off for five or six years now, getting a feel for a couple of different languages. Spanish is what clicked most with me, and while I am far from getting conversationally fluid, I definitely have some reading and listening comprehension. It's not enough to watch a whole show in Spanish, but I usually get the gist when a character speaks some of their lines in Spanish.

[@glitterpuss1]

When I lived in Wales 10 yrs ago and worked in a bilingual organisation I did 4 hours of Welsh learning a week for a year. I came away only being somewhat comfortable describing the weather! I did a year of Duolingo Welsh recently and enjoyed the process and feel much more comfortable with the language. Do I use it daily? No. Do I still enjoy knowing how to pronounce place names correctly and exchange pleasantries when I go to Wales - yes! That’ll do then :)

[@TheSlickmicks]

The use of color in the main frame of the shot is amazing. Love the Blue to White to Peachy orange.

[@ShamrockSquid]

I'm going to start this comment with a slight disclaimer that I'm not an active follower of either Evan or Lamont, but seeing what's happened here, I feel like I need to make a comment. While I agree that Lamont's comments on your journey were unnecessary and should have been excluded, I feel at their core they weren't about you, but about the effectiveness of Duolingo. There were even bits of the video where he uses a clip of something you said as something he agrees with (such as the recent changes on sentence discussion) which does give credence to the idea that the video wasn't meant as a slight towards you personally. This entire video, however, is an active attack against Lamont, with you making jabs at him for being a smaller KZbinr, saying stuff like "“I guess when videos like I learned Spanish for 25 hours straight don't hit too well you gotta resort to using me or Ali abdaal to get views”" and general jabs at his lifestyle / person like “Having lives, and not spending 25hrs in a row learning languages like normal people things which I don't think us relatable to him so" which isn't the only reference to "normal people wouldn't x" you make in this video. I feel as a KZbinr with your audience size, and knowing what some are likely to do to the other creator when videos like this are made, it's a bit of an unnecessarily malicious move. I'm not going to tell you how to feel, and not to get offended over something like this, because that part is pretty understandable, it's how you chose to react outwardly that I take issue with. In the future, I think it's better if you hash out issues like this in a dialogue with the person between the two of you rather than rinsing someone, especially a smaller KZbinr that caters to a niche audience, which you know is going to cause members of your audience to go and fill the comment sections of his videos with hateful comments that have nothing to do with the video itself.

[@VirtuallyNative]

Using Evan's face in the thumbnail coupled with a title like "Stop PRETENDING ...", pretending being a euphemism for lying, are good enough reasons for Evan's reaction, never mind the content of Lamont's video. Don't get me wrong, I do agree with Lamont that duolingo is a waste of time but the products he is peddling (Busuu, Olly Richards' graded readers, Drops, iTalki, etc.) are just as useless, if not more so. At least duolingo is free. I wrote a comment below his video about that but he blocked me - so much for being objective and genuinely trying to help the language learning community. Lamont is not fluent in any of the languages he claims to have learned. There is a video of him speaking Swedish with a girl from Poland in which she does 90% of the talking. He says that Swedish is his strongest language so not gonna even bother commenting on his other languages. He hasn't got the experience nor expertise to give advice on that topic. Here's the big difference between Evan and Lamont: Evan doesn't pretend to be an authority on language learning, doesn't claim to be a language learning guru, doesn't seem to want to be one either. It's all very simple actually: find somebody who has achieved what you want to achieve and (try to) replicate their success. Don't ask them for advice, but instead ask them about their success, how they did it.

[@pillbugm8914]

I really think that's you giving Lamont the benefit of the doubt. He has no issue with calling people out directly before and being more scathing with his critiques. He also put Evan's face in the thumbnail which kind of says it all. Don't dish what you can't take.

[@CanadaBlue85]

@@VirtuallyNative how exactly is Italki just as or more useless than Duolingo? It's literally for finding and booking conversations or lessons with tutors and pro teachers. Have you even used the service? Because I have, and it's the literary the opposite of useless for learning a language lol.

[@ShamrockSquid]

@@pillbugm8914 You know what, I think that first part of your comment is absolutely right, I've seen the comments he's made since this video was posted and they're not a good look 😅 At this point I think both people have reacted badly to the whole situation. As for putting Evans face in the thumbnail, I feel like it's kind of part and parcel of keeping up with the modern KZbin landscape. I don't think a lot of the folk who make those videos you see on recommended actually want to have titles like "This one way to do x changed my life" with a red circle and the "KZbinr face" but the way things are at the moment, that kind of framing of your content is what is most likely to help you to grow your audience 😅

[@ShamrockSquid]

@@pillbugm8914 P.S for the record I do think it was scummy for Lamont to change the view count in the thumbnail, like I still don't understand why that happened haha

[@Sweepout]

I so agree! Duolingo for most people is a good base, and everyone has ways that work better for them. Also some individual language courses on Duolingo is better than others too. Like you said the reason behind language learning varies between everyone. I love the videos you've made because it really makes it feel okay to not be at C1 in German after a year. Also some of the languages like Navajo or Welsh is EXTREMELY hard to learn really anywhere but Duolingo.

[@colleanobrien3288]

Or Klingon. I had the Klingon Dictionary back in the 80s and because I couldn't hear it, I never figured out how to speak it. So it was fun to see that as an option on the Duolingo app. Also, I read on BBC news about 5 weeks ago that Duolingo was pausing it's Welsh course. So I don't know what the status is, there. Because it does seem that there aren't a lot of resources for it elsewhere. Though I did see another news story somewhere on KZbin about Star Wars being dubbed into Navajo!

[@Sweepout]

I watched Lamonts video when it came out actually. I know what it said. That is not what was said or how it was put though. Even never claimed to only use Duolingo. Also, Duolingo themselves even has an article in their support section on their website about how it won't get you to fluency by itself. Also, even with it it states the furthest their courses are designed to help you to is "B2 level" anyways. @@baconeta

[@philipproselieb7617]

You actually said "Wahnsinn", which translates to craziness, " Unsinn" would translate to nonsense...

[@Wheese8]

The way KZbin incentivizes drama is pure evil. I've watched a few of these "which language app really works" videos now (mostly earlier in my forays into language learning), and it's amazing how many of them shill for alternative apps or sources... Keep on keeping on Evan. Your videos have helped me a lot and your genuineness is refreshing (and much appreciated).

[@tsunderewaifu]

He would not accept DL as a way to learn a language casually. Why can't people accept one shoe doesn't fit all? This is what Evan has pointed out and said many times he has done classes and other stuff to learn. Also, Lamont did take a lot of Evan's words out of context and nor has Evan claim to be a language youtuber, he is just expat/vlogger youtube. It's kind of off base to come at someone who found something helpful. I haven't seen once where he claimed he only used DL or that it's only reason he is fluent in German. And yeah, if the video is about duolingo then obviously Evan will talk about it specifically. And pretty much all of DL community encourages people to use more than one resource for learning. I hate when people try to gate keep what is the proper way of learning and what time frame is correct pace to become fluent. Let people do their own thing. I am tired of any hobby community I am in turning into nitpicking and gatekeeping feast.

[@hi__im_zack4890]

I have a friend who is anti-Duolingo. They are fluent in the language I'm trying to learn, but I never practice with them because they criticize all the mistakes I make. Even my accent. And they use me as proof for why Duolingo doesn't work. Even though when I talk to other Spanish speakers I'm able to hold a conversation (albeit not a good one, I'm not claiming I'm even close to fluent, but I can get by with a little help). And it sucks. So I fully feel you. I'm not even trying to claim Duolingo works, it just sucks that people put you down because you use Duolingo to try to learn a language.

[@TokuNorth]

......So why are you still their friend?

[@hi__im_zack4890]

@@TokuNorth good question.

[@schramollie]

Yeah, dude, that isn't a friend. Keep doing you, everyone's language journey looks different than others.

[@katherinelandreth2191]

"They are fluent in the language I'm trying to learn..." So you're at two different levels, and they're criticizing you for not being at their level yet? Different people have different goals and abilities. If one person's goal is to speak a language with no accent in as few days as possible, they'll probably need to drill speaking exercises for hours a day with a tutor giving them constant feedback. But if another person has social anxiety, doesn't want to have conversations, and their goal is to learn how to read manga in Japanese, getting a conversation partner isn't going to help them learn hiragana - and it will be the most uncomfortable way to not meet their actual goals. If your goal is to build a foundation in a language in a relaxed and fun way? Duolingo is great for that. And that foundation will eventually allow you to comfortably use other resources that can help you achieve more specific goals like reading books or working on your accent. Like Evan said, you have to get to the airport first. There are lots of ways to get to the airport. Take an Uber, take a train, walk, ride your bike, whatever. Pick the thing that feels good that you can stick to. Because if you decide to walk to the airport, but it's long and hard and boring so you give up, you won't actually get to the airport. If you take a Uber because it's fast but you only have enough money for half of the trip (or you only have enough motivation to keep up the pace you set for a couple of weeks), you still won't get to the airport. But if you choose riding a bike, and you can see your progress, you can keep up a good pace, and you're having fun while you're doing it? You won't give up and you'll eventually get to the airport. Consistency, and having positive feelings about your progress matters way more than cramming something you hate doing for hours because someone else told you it was the "right" way. Basically, don't let someone else define or dismiss *your* language goals. Don't let someone else convince you there's only one "right" way to learn a language especially if it's doing something you hate. And don't bother comparing yourself to other people who are well above your level. You already know you're not at the same level, it only serves to feed that other person's ego to nitpick and point out the difference.

[@h0b0c0p8]

Sounds like you're being used as a tool to inflate their ego. Maybe that person is a good friend or maybe not I don't know but that is a very toxic thing for that person to do to you. I'm a horrible learner and did terribly in German in high school and college. I chose to learn French by myself and Duolingo was one of the tools that helped me reach a level beyond what I was capable of in college when it came to other languages. You're doing great. Keep it up.

[@brntmoondoll4jaw]

Agree with you for the most part but honestly? I don’t blame r/Spanish for banning posts with questions from Duolingo. I’m not in that sub, but I can easily imagine people posting the same screenshots of the same incorrect/weird/broken sentences that Duolingo hasn’t fixed in 5 years and I can imagine that gets very annoying. Maybe I’m wrong and they’re just being pretentious.

[@brambleheart]

And the whole Spanish or vanish memes too

[@loonartms]

They worded it in the worst way but they're not that wrong

[@jessica-mh3os]

duolingo is the perfect leg up imo. also learning german on the app. but there is a point where you hit a plateau in learning. however it gives you the foundation and the base level of vocabulary needed for more complex learning. nobody ever claimed duolingo is the only tool you need to learn a language but some people really act like that’s the case 🤷‍♀️

[@cristycrenshaw9109]

Duolingo is, consistenly, better than nothing. I find it a fun way to kill time that isn't doom scrolling. Any success I have in duolingo is above and beyond the point of killing time in a mentally and emotionally satisfying manner.

[@clerica5787]

When I first saw your videos popping up on my feed, I was very half-assed learning German. I didn't know jack, I was lazy and inconsistent, and I was making no progress. Now, I am confident in my German classes to speak and answer questions. I've relearned a lost language for me (Spanish from 10 years ago), and I am learning MS Arabic and Hebrew concurrently. I went from 1.5 to 5 languages. Any progress is progress. Any method is valid if it works for you. And we need more teachers, mentors, cheerleaders, and influencers like Evan.

[@LowPolyPixel]

I started learning German on Duolingo because I saw that you had success with it. Granted, I haven't used it in the most effective way and there are still many part of German that confuse me. But you know what, I had fun and I know a lot more German now than I did a year ago.

[@marikothecheetah9342]

and that's the most important thing. :)

[@franny5156]

Hell, I'm german and it also confuses me xD

[@LowPolyPixel]

@@franny5156 Oh nein! D:

[@shaclo1512]

the App is good for starting to learn a language but to become fluent you still need other sources, like youtube teaching videos and movies.

[@jarodh-m6099]

As a former French teacher, I have a lot of thoughts, but here some of the one that I think are the most salient. People love to argue about what fluency means. Duolingo is popular and imperfect, like any tool. It is not going to work for everyone and give you everything. The limited connection to language to the greater culture is my biggest concern. If you are not talking about the specifics of learning specific languages or using specific tools, I think there is also a limited amount that you can talk about. Talking about drama hits are very universal human interest that can make strong engagement.

[@logankrastel9609]

Out of curiosity what would you consider being fluent to mean? I understand it to mean that you can read, write, and speak a language with enough skill to handle day to day living completely functioning in that language. Would you agree or disagree?

[@wilmascholte7607]

I have brushed up on my German and some French using Duolingo. I had 2 or 3 years of German in highschool and failed one year with a 4/10. When I was on vacation earlier this year, I could have conversations with Germans, Luxemburgers and some Swiss. And as I was in eastern France, me and a few German hikers came across a French geology class in the mountains and I translated some French into German. Like "water gets into the rocks, freezes and breaks them up" type of stuff. Standing on top of a mountain, the step from 'rocher' to 'felsen' didn't happen. So I kicked a rock. And that worked, because guess what, people aren't stupid and willing to meet you halfway. 🥰 Think about it, the purpose of language is to communicate. If you can communicate, then it's a win. Will you be equally good at communication in any language you've dabbled in? Hell no. Also, fun fact, I've seen so much CSI that I know a bunch of medical terms in English. I do not know all of these words in my native language, Dutch.

[@TMThesaurus]

For Lamont specifically, I think he feels somewhat bitter about the time he personally put into using Duolingo. Actually, I think something like this is true for a lot of people who gatekeep language learning, along with just repeating stuff they heard online. They wish that they used more efficient techniques sooner. When we get right down to it, there's so much about language learning that we don't know. One of the things we do know with any amount of confidence is is that comprehensible input is the most important part of second language acquisition, and at the end of the day, when you use Duolingo, you're being exposed to input. People in the language learning community also underestimate the barriers to entry their preferred techniques have.

[@theburgersystem126]

Oh Lamont definitely does feel bitter about it.

[@MrKasenom]

I think duolingo isn't very fun or entertaining comprehensible input, but if you follow the lessons the input is very comprehensible

[@melodywolff6346]

@@MrKasenomI love the stories. They're fun, the rest not as much.

[@VirtuallyNative]

Let me try to be as objective as I possibly can. 1. Using Evan's face in the thumbnail coupled with a title like "Stop PRETENDING ...", pretending being a euphemism for lying, are good enough reasons for Evan's response, never mind the content of Lamont's video. 2. Neither Evan nor Lamont are FLUENT in the official/dictionary definition of that word. 3. Evan describes himself as Photographer first, KZbinr second, and language learner third. He doesn't pretend to be an authority on language learning, doesn't claim to be a language learning guru, doesn't seem to want to be one either. A small percentage of his videos are about language learning. Whereas 99% of Lamont's videos are about language learning but he is not fluent in any of the languages he claims to have learned. There is a video of him speaking Swedish with a girl from Poland in which she does 90% of the talking. He says that Swedish is his strongest language so not gonna even bother commenting on his other languages. He hasn't got the experience nor expertise to give advice on that topic. 4. I do agree with Lamont that Duolingo is INEFFICIENT, but the things he is peddling (Busuu, Olly Richards' courses, Drops, iTalki, etc.) are just as inefficient, if not more so. At least duo is free. I wrote a comment below his video about that but he blocked me - so much for being objective and genuinely trying to help the language learning community. Lamont deletes critical of him comments, Evan doesn't. 5. His flight analogy makes no sense whatsoever. What is the journey from his house to Sydney airport supposed to represent? And what about the flight to SF? What does SF airport represent and why stop there? The best analogy I could come up with is comparing learning a language to learning a musical instrument. 6. It's all very simple actually: find somebody who's achieved what you want to achieve and (try to) replicate their success. Don't ask them for advice, but instead ask them about their success, how they did it. EDIT: For example: after 5 months of studying Spanish with his unique method, Lamont was able to achieve the following: "when I got to Mexico I was able to buy things and discuss prices". If that's what you want to achieve (whatever "discuss prices" means), then watch a single film 50 times, use Dreaming Spanish, pay for iTalki, buy Olly Richards' $297 course and after 5 months you'll be able to buy things and discuss prices.

[@terrygreen76]

​@@MrKasenomI have found the Learner Guidebooks to be useful, I've printed them out and put them in a folder and take notes as I go through the lessons.

[@lukefagan2431]

If Duolingo actually made people fluent they'd lose customers, and they have a legal obligation to their shareholders not to let that happen.

[@Snowshowslow]

Yeahhhh... I used Duolingo as a huuuuge leg up to learning Spanish, then continued with a B1- B2 course on site, so for my own purposes I definitely became fluent. You know what I use Duolingo for now? Maintaining it and learning some other languages. Why would people need to leave the app after it actually helped them?

[@Snowshowslow]

Yeahhhh... I used Duolingo as a huuuuge leg up to learning Spanish, then continued with a B1- B2 course on site, so for my own purposes I definitely became fluent. You know what I use Duolingo for now? Maintaining it and learning some other languages. Why would people need to leave the app after it actually helped them?

[@cathetedder4133]

Evan, it may be a long video, but I listened to the WHOLE thing. You're right. I've learned a lot from Duolingo and will continue to use it.

[@mattclough1737]

I used duilingo for a couple of years from 2018. I moved onto other things like books, textbooks, tv shows. But I'm not sure I would have had the interest or motivation to do that before making easy progress on duolingo. Now I live in germany! And I started learning because of a video from you so cheers

[@MsTupperwarequeen]

I couldn’t agree with you more Evan. I am using Duolingo to update from my schoolgirl German mainly because my son has a German girlfriend and I want to be able to communicate with her in her own language (of courses, her English is impeccable, and regardless of my learning method I can’t see that I’d ever reach a comparable level!). Since using DL for just over a year, I can now follow reasonably well a German language TV show, I don’t think I would be able to do that without the basics I’ve picked up thanks to Duolingo.

[@loonartms]

That rule on r/Spanish was the worst, most neckbeard polyglot thing I've ever read

[@camm5245]

The only reason I started learning Irish Gaelic was because of duolingo. I wouldn't have even considered it without duolingo. I did buy books and stuff after learning a bit, but I am so happy that I was inspired to learn it in the first place. Duolingo has been helpful!

[@IainMcGirr]

Ah Ta go maith a chaire ... :) PS I come from Ireland 20 Km from the Kerry Gaeltacht ... its wonderful to hear people wanting to learn it .. means a lot .. well done you :) and before you mention the lack of a fada over the Ta .. I dont have that on current keyboard

[@nagonpainternet5551]

I do not feel like he is judging you though, in the video he is just saying that if you want to learn with maximum efficiency you should not focus on using duolingo in HIS opinion. That's it. You are one of the biggest youtubers on the language learning space and I do not think he is doing anything wrong by using you as an example for his argumentation.

[@evan]

By using it out of context and lying about the length of time to fit his narrative I’d say that’s wrong. Inherently. He had very good points he could have made but not in the way he did

[@nagonpainternet5551]

I now watch the whole video, I just wrote this mid-video since I felt it was not THAT bad and deserving of such a rant. But when I watched the whole video I truly understood your point, that clip of you was a little too mean-spirited. Please continue making good language making content as always. @@evan

[@vildayoga1654]

learning a language shouldnt be a race, that really resonated with me! I have been a little bit sad about how slow my learning german has been going but you reminded me that I have my whole life to practice. So thank you Evan for that reminder!

[@ann18o96]

After unsucessfully trying on my own, I finally started learning Japanese via Duolingo. So far it did make me practive more often, and during times I have nothing better to do. There seems to be a community of language learners, who kind of build their identity and somewhat their self worth on the ability to learn languages. It is both sad, but also unfair to anyone else who doesn't have that particular skill set the way that they do.

[@ninimeggie4771]

I'm a language teacher and Duolingo is fantastic for language learning and practice. It's not a stand alone program for fluency though, as has been said on here before.

[@scragar]

My brother is learning French on Duolingo, and honestly he's making progress, but the biggest issue seems to be thinking of words as exchangeable for an English word rather than having meanings of their own resulting in weird things like saying he's going to posses pizza for tea(rather than eat, because he just substituted the word "have" for "avoir"). He did the same thing with "dans" meaning "in", but "I am in a hurry" isn't the same meaning, "dans" is more like "inside" or "within", it doesn't make sense to be "dans un presse" because that's more like saying "inside a hurried", the words just don't translate the same. I'm sure they probably have tools to fix this, my brother's rushing to learn as fast as he can which probably doesn't help, but he's at least understandable and able to understand about80% of what is said back which is pretty good after only about 3 months.

[@goddessfreya13]

I've seen the same thing with Norwegian in Duolingo in the forums there. People who think they know how to say a sentence in Norwegian and it comes out like gibberish because they don't understand that words have to be used in the right context. I think Duolingo can be used as a supplement though. For a difficult language like Greek (that I'm learning) to only use Duolingo as it is now without the sentence discussions would be a disaster.

[@capitalb5889]

Is that Duolingo's fault or is it the same problem that we all have when learning a language? You can often tell the nationality of a person by the mistakes they make in speaking or writing your language.

[@goddessfreya13]

@@capitalb5889 The problem with Duolingo with regards to this is that some people spend a lot of time "learning" a language there without any corrections, and then they are in for a rude awakening when it turns out they haven't really learned it at all. They get a false sense of accomplishment from being able to translate sentences on Duolingo.

[@willdegra317]

that's excellent progress! yeah, it seems this is his first language he's learning. The whole word-for-word doesn't work for any but the closest languages/dialects. After awhile he'll see that each language is its own thing.

[@adapienkowska2605]

@@goddessfreya13 but Duolingo accepts only words in certain context. In the pizza example, if you had to translate 'I eat pizza' they wouldn't accept 'J'ai une pizza' you need to put 'Je mange de la pizza'.

[@Captain_Chair]

Oh he's mad, absolutely fuming.

[@DirewolfNymaera]

One thing that I think DL does really well for me is keep me accountable. I have ADHD and the gamified streaks and points keep me going. I hit 700 days last week and I'm quite proud. I loved that you mentioned the r/svenska sub because you've reminded me of the great community built around language learning. I'm sorry this guy tried to drag you down for clicks, but know that folks like myself appreciate your candor and honesty about your growth. Also, I hope your trip/course in Berlin was amazing. 😄 Tack så mycket!

[@KaiOpaka]

Right? The gamifying is helpful for ADHDers. The dopamine/accountability situation supports continued learning.

[@Beach_BCs]

Evan, I'm so proud of you for making this video. Great job. My husband was watching too and could tell you were feeling strongly. Good for you for speaking up.

[@olliep.538]

I think he makes some good points about duolingo - after I watched his video I realized that I stopped doing any additional Spanish besides my daily duo - sometimes no more then 5 minutes. So I decided to break my 275 day streak and commit myself to more podcasts and reading. So far I've been doing more, maybe I'll end up with more progress at the end or doing nothing at all, who knows. But I didn't subscribe to his channel, exactly because how he described you language learning journey - it rubbed me the wrong way . I also think some people have very high standarts for saying that you are 'fluent' in a foreign language. That's why I try not to say that I'm fluent in English even if I have ~C1

[@evan]

Mate your English is amazing so whatever you’re doing, keep it up!

[@olliep.538]

@@evan Thank you❤ by now most of the content I consume is in English, so I hope it is. But I still make some extremely stupid mistakes, especially when I'm stressed or I speak to a group of people, it always makes me feel so insecure. I don't speak German so I obviously cannot assess your speaking, but when one is not being extremely ungenerous when choosing a specific video, I think it sounds really nice and natural, so obviously duolingo has worked for you at least in some part.

[@colleanobrien3288]

I decided to break my streak a few days after watching Lemont's video too. I waited til I got to 50, and then I opted to take a break. But as he said, it's easier to leave a shorter streak than a longer one.

[@olliep.538]

@@colleanobrien3288 breaking my streak was definitely a bit upsetting. Now the most important part is to continue doing something else, without streaks and notifications to remind you

[@israellai]

​@@evanwhatever they're doing = watching Evan Edinger, I'm sure 😂 now I just need to find your equivalent in other languages

[@amie3632]

lol tbh I have absolutely no skin in the language learning part and am both shocked and entertained to see there's so much drama and gatekeeping because honestly, who even cares who is at what proficiency. I've watched Evan's videos on language learning over the years despite having little personal interest in learning another language myself just because I like Evan's channel, but he's never come across to me like he's trying to sell Duolingo specifically, nor have I ever got the impression he believes that that's all you need to learn a language. I think him actually making the effort to go live in the countries he's trying to learn the language of for a little while just to practice is making the point you CAN'T just rely on duolingo even stronger. And if I can pick that up with my limited interest in the topic, so can everyone else. But anyway, what I wanted to actually say was some of the replies suggesting Evan took this other guy too personally, or pointing out he 'said some nice things' about him - what? The amount of times I scroll KZbin and spot Evan's face in a thumbnail because someone is reacting to one of his videos or using his videos to make their own off the back of it. And I check, and hardly any of them ever credit him or link to him... but they will be making money off all the views they get of a video that's been made either at his expense or ripping off content he's worked hard on. I know Evan has mentioned this behaviour before but he appears to mostly have let it go. It is what it is. But then when someone does use you for views and shove you in their thumbnail, and then also (even 'politely') tries to put you down or misconstrue your words... he has every right to be annoyed. And Evan is very rarely this annoyed. I think it's completely disingenuous to act like you wouldn't be too.

[@evan]

Thank you for understanding my perspective

[@lucymarie8611]

I find it funny that they go look for mistakes to claim you aren’t fluent. I speak two languages and I royally mess up in both my first and second language regularly. I been speaking Spanish for 30 years and English for 25 years and I still mess up.

[@marikothecheetah9342]

Even natives make mistakes. Polish people make so many mistakes it's infuriating sometimes (I'm a Polish native, too). :D

[@Scotter4536]

I'm fluent in Spanish and I've had people ask me to translate something in a song that is playing and if I'm not able to understand all of it, they think that's proof that I'm not fluent. They neglect to consider that there are tons of songs that are hard to understand every word of in your native language, not to mention slang terms, especially considering how many countries and dialects of Spanish there are. Fluency doesn't equal perfection. I make mistakes all the time in my native language, English.

[@annabeinglazy5580]

Not even native, anyone whos actually fluent in foreign languages jokes about how often they manage to forget words in all their languages. I have managed to forget the word for tape measure in both english and my native language. I remembered it 10 minutes later, when i had found the damn thing

[@marikothecheetah9342]

@@annabeinglazy5580 true story. Happens all the time. That's why Germans have the word: wieheisster to name the unnamed whose name has been forgotten :D

[@jmm5765]

You're great dude, you have made insane progress. I speak german and you can speak very well using duolingo, also, your energy is great and you're just a cool person. People who're hating on you have no clue what they're talking about. Much love!

[@ArielVHarloff]

The way you set up this shot with the three different colours in the background and all that is really nice

[@willdegra317]

I liked this vid! you were heated at times, and I get it, but I agree with your points. One of the hardest parts of learning a language is remaining consistent. It's better to use a suboptimal method that helps you get to speaking or understanding your language than the bestest method that you quit in a week. Anything that helps you learn the language is valid for you.

[@colleanobrien3288]

I've been following you for years, Evan, and I honestly can say I am excited to learn you're going to get a haircut soon. I am nostalgic for the old Evan sometimes too. Also, I had seen Lemont's video and was curious as to your thoughts on it, so I was pleased to see this was what you included in this week's video, as much as I am looking forward to your German-language one coming up whenever that is. I will say that the thing I did take away from Lemont's video, was how easy it could be for me to take the pressure off of maintaining a daily streak on Duolingo. Because that was what I had found myself doing, keeping the streak for the sake of keeping the streak, and that's not a good enough reason to keep up the streak if I'm not having any fun! It was fun at one point, and then it wasn't anymore, so had been winding down my use of the app in the past few weeks anyhow, but I hadn't realized that I was insisting on doing it EVERY DAY and for what? It's OK for me to take a break. I can come back to it if I want. You made a point in this video about learning languages because it's fun. And there's not one exclusive way to have fun, and even the things can be fun aren't necessarily fun all of the time.

[@atypicalambience3487]

Pointing out that it took you 8 years to reach B2 is not a judgement is a descriptive statement. If that fact is wrong, please correct it.

[@evan]

(I'd literally taken a B2 course in late 2020). So yes. That is in fact wrong.

[@Jake-tq7qh]

Before watching this I had only seen maybe 3 or 4 of Evan's videos previously and I wasn't sure If I was gonna keep up with him, but after watching this rant, I'm all in. This is genuinely one of the most vitriolic, vengeful, and bitter KZbin videos I've even seen, and I'm here for it. It's crazy more people haven't commented on how crazy this makes Evan look. This is a 33 MINUTE video solely shitting on another KZbinr. I thought he was going to transition to something else at some point, but no, pure venom. It was awesome. In fairness I haven't seen lamont's video nor do I care to, but Evan said himself he's been on KZbin for 15 years (which is impressive, congrats Evan), so isn't something like this par for the course? I'm just shocked at how shocked he is that he was mentioned in another video, however negative and cynical that other video was. Maybe there's a history between Evan and lamont that hasn't been discussed here (again I'm new to Evan's channel so I don't know) or maybe Evan's had a reservoir of anger against certain parts of the language learning community as a whole that is bubbling over, but to make this video is still fucking crazy, so much so that he literally told us halfway through that he wasn't sure about posting it because he questioned his intentions. He then examined those intentions, determined they weren't all that pure, AND THEN POSTED IT ANYWAY, before ending the video with a song about "working on yourself." Just to be clear, I'm super glad he posted it, for entertainment value, but Evan, I would recommend more therapy. I look forward to keeping up with that as I continue to watch your channel.

[@evan]

Hahahah maaaate yeah I am absolutely signing up for therapy again as it’s been a while and it defo would help 😅😅

[@loonartms]

I saw the original video a while ago then saw this reaction and I was like, oh... Interesting. I wasn't expecting that considering I didn't find the original that divisive, Lamont was just pedaling the method he always does while using a few references to Evan for argument which I suppose you couldd find offensive... And God damn, it's a 30 minute rant 10x as aggressive where everything could have been said in a third of the time. But God was it entertaining.

[@lazyfluency]

Massively relate to your feelings about the general negative trajectory of online language learning communities. It is so strange how the question "Why are you learning another language?", never seems to be discussed in the context of effective language learning. A great example of losing the forest for the trees. Just because something is the most efficient way, it doesn't make it the most effective way for every learner. Most people have what I like to call a "Life", with things like "priorities" and "goals." Awesome video!

[@LaRocheSews]

The lighting and color grading in this vid is beautiful

[@evan]

Thank you. I was also really happy with it

[@andthatsshannii]

The idea that you have to make no mistakes at all to be fluent is really damaging. People learn by making mistakes. People make mistakes in their native language. The most important thing is whether you can communicate your thoughts and be understood. The more you practice, the fewer mistakes you make.

[@DianaEstrellaB]

as someone with a 1300+ day streak in duolingo and isn't even close to being fluent in french but really enjoys learning bit by bit, your videos did help a lot when i first started

[@Afrinaturality]

Are you learning just via Duolingo or are you doing other learning activities, too? How much time do you spend learning a day? I'm also learning French via Duolingo but starting to branch out to other learning sources to boost my progression.

[@Strider115]

I watched that. he didn´t say it was bad he said that's fine too use it but not for him. I didn´t see he was attacking you at all he seemed fair. yes very attackie but he's just observing

[@autumn7980]

as a 1000+ streak duolingo user in Swedish who has recently moved to Sweden, I think Duolingo was amazing for language learning! It of course sometimes depend on the materials available in the target language (I had a little plateau when I ran out of new materials, but I kept daily practicing anyway!). I actually think Duolingo has massively improved my Swedish vocab knowledge and just by trying to have conversations and one course in A1/A2 I am really conversational in Swedish. Many people here are surprised I can speak it so well while only having lived here 4 months now. People should just stop judging, if Duolingo doesnt work for you, then it doesn't work for you. (Language) learning is such an individual dependent thing in my opinion. Additionally, with my background in linguistics and my opinion that as long as you can communicate what is necessary for you in that moment, you are doing great on your language learning journey.

[@wyntermyst]

Everyone's learning style is different. And what Duolingo provides is quite different in every language anyway.

[@hotswipe]

I enjoy Duolingo, I use it mostly as an aid to grow my vocabulary. I met a guy at a Welsh meetup thing that got to lefel canolradd by using Duolingo, everyone was very impressed. With classes you do 2 years of mynediad, 2 years of sylfaen then get to canolradd.

[@conorgarratt6718]

Well this is weird as someone who has watched both of your channels for a long time! I get why you did not take the use as the example in the video very well and some of the framing in Lamont's video as I think honestly if i was in the same position I wouldn't enjoy the random video about me either. Especially with language learning and command of a language being so personal, in the sense that speaking a language is a window into how we think, and so is something people (myself included) can be self conscious about, it can feel really disheartening to be critiqued on how you speak one, especially in excerpts of an older video. I have to say those sections of the video were not great to watch from my side, as I think the central point of how effective Duolingo actually is in comparison to other techniques does not rely on how you speak German now or in the past. However I think the editor note towards the end of the video is a little bit of a misrepresentation of Lamont's position; his video from last year about potential uses for Duolingo came after a few videos on his channel released over the course of a few years explicitly about why he did not find it very useful as a technique, and is specifically about the few edge cases where in spite of those criticisms it might still be useful. Obviously that's not clear in the initial packaging but it is in the video itself. So I don't think this is a case of a KZbinr creating content geared purely towards saying what people want to say. The language learning space can be very weird with a lot of dogma about specifically what methods work, much as I guess every niche interest can be with different wedge issues, and definitely in this case talking about how other people learn languages certainly should be at best done in a "well each to their own but I've found XYZ more effective". There is probably nothing to be gained in any of what I've said but, in addition to enjoying many of your videos on a wide range of topics over the years, I've found Lamont's videos very insightful in terms of picking up some ideas of how to pick up a new language myself, as well as motivating at times too, so I thought I'd make a rare comment on a KZbin video to weigh in with another perspective :) It would be great if you could somehow hash it out amongst yourselves as I would hope there was no real ill intent from either side!

[@evan]

I really really appreciate your incredibly knowledgeable and nuanced take on things.

[@conorgarratt6718]

Appreciate you taking the time to read my garble! Looking forward to the upcoming German video 😊

[@VirtuallyNative]

2:14 I commented below Lamont's video that the products he is peddling (Busu, graded readers, etc.) are even less efficient than Duolingo but he blocked me - so much for being objective and genuinely trying to help the language learning community. 8:51 The flight analogy is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Forget about getting to Sydney airport, what about the airport in SF? What is one supposed to do at the airport, is that the final destination, the airport terminal itself? The thing makes no sense. Lemont is not fluent in any foreign language so he shouldn't give advice on that topic. The truth of the matter is very simple: don't ask people for advice, instead ask them about their success, how they did it, and copy it (if you can) ​@@conorgarratt6718

[@cantacarallada]

​@@VirtuallyNative After seeing you answer almost the same long text to many people in this comment section, if you did the same thing in his comment section I would block you as well.

[@VirtuallyNative]

@@cantacarallada NO, I DID NOT DO THE SAME THING in his comment section. I wrote 1 short comment about the inefficiency of the products he was recommending as an alternative to duolingo. Not a word about Evan. I even praised him on his video editing skills. That was it, but he deleted it. It was my first time commenting on his channel. He knows who I am, he has commented a few times below my videos. The reason I reposted the same long text here is because I'm an expert on second language acquisition and I actually wanna help language learners. I'm super against Duolingo but would never go after a person who doesn't claim to be an expert on language learning. Evan is a photographer, travel vlogger, youtuber, and language LEARNER. Whereas Lamont is/was an English teacher on iTalki and a language guru on YT.

[@erichartmann]

☝🏻 "Schwanzvermessungswettbewerb" is the literal translation. Colloquial it's "Schwanzvergleich".

[@xzonia1]

Didn't even know videos like that guy made existed. smh. Been watching your learning journey for years, and we know you actually use Duolingo and it helped you learn German and Spanish. Keep up the good work, Evan!

[@Niki1A_]

"Schwanzvermessungswettbewerb" is more of a literal translation, the word we actually use is "Schwanzvergleich".

[@joepiekl]

As someone who's studied second language acquisition a fair bit, you definitely get this a lot. People who discovered Krashen in about 2020 are my favourite, because they're typically not aware of any of the 40 years of research that's happened since Krashen first published his hypothesis. But for them in particular, the argument is that speaking (and output in general) doesn't help you learn a language. As always online, the internet community argument lacks any of the subtlety of the original academic argument. The reality is that there are many ways to learn a language, because language is such a huge mishmash of different sub-skills. And you might find that depending on how you learn, you might be stronger or weaker in these different sub-skills. You'll probably do better with pronunciation if you have a one-to-one teacher, for example, but that's probably not the most efficient way to learn large quantities of new vocabulary.

[@adapienkowska2605]

And the reality is you should use different tools as it helps to keep brain engaged. And adults don't learn language as babies do. We have an entire map of connections in our native language, babies don't, why not use it?

[@flp322]

Any pointers on said research?

[@tonimcguire8588]

Your tips have helped me while working on Duolingo and learning Chinese. I’ve always thought this platform was great and it really helped me after I taught English in China for 5 years. I just found your channel, please do keep posting. A win for me, I was driving a Chinese speaker and asked her a question in Chines, her reply, your Chinese has really improved.

[@Annaonesun]

I've been kinda passively trying to learn Korean on and off since around 2011. I tried the "traditional" method, by enrolling in a Korean language class at university, then after dropping it a semester in, I signed up for online courses which I also didn't complete since, at that point, my Korean was too good for the beginner classes and too poor for intermediate classes (Back then there were much fewer options for online resourses when it came to learning Korean than there are now). A few years ago I started using Duolingo. Is it the greatest way to learn a language ever invented? No. Definitely not. And I'm very grateful I learnt many of the complicated rules of Korean grammar at uni, since Duo does almost nothing to actively teach you that. But to this day Duolingo is the one learning method that I have been able to stick with. I'm still far from fluent, but it doesn't matter, it's not a race. I'm learning, and getting better every day. If I had stuck to trying to learn through textbooks and courses with teachers, I don't think I'd gotten as far as I have today. Everyone's brains work differently. A method that works great for one person might not work at all for someone else.

[@DinoLevitin]

Danke für die Inspiration die du gibst! 🎉❤

[@thedeutschman9905]

Duolingo largely got me to B1 in German this year, something I wanted to be able to do. Now, I won’t deny it has a lot of problems and I still want to work on German outside of duolingo, but to say it’s useless because you can’t get fluent by only using Duolingo is like saying push-ups can’t get you ripped and are therefore useless. The problem I have with Lamont is how he 100% discounts duolingo for most users and then says, “come get something I get money from”, that just doesn’t seem right.

[@шибкоумнаяоднако]

Well... I personally used Duolingo to start learning Finnish. At the very beginning I knew only about 30-40 words and wasn't able to actually use them anyhow. At the end (all levels are legendary) I am able to read simple texts and understand about 50% (sometimes more) immideatly, I also watch learning videos on KZbin in Finnish and I can actually understand infomation (not all, but enough that these videos give me some buffs). It took me about 16 month to finish the DL course, and I enjoued it really much. I had tough times, I had fun times, there's something I can be nostalgic about. Is it long time to achieve so little? Yes. Do I regret, that I didn't choose the better, fastest way? No. First of all, I don't know one; the second reason is - I liked to sit in subway and use DL while going to/from work. I used to play games such as three-in-a-row earlier, and I replaced them with better alternative. The only thing I REALLY regret is that the course is too short. I would love to use it to learn further, but alas. BTW, don't juge Duolingo by my English. My crappy English has almost nothing to do with Duolingo. I'm just lazy bum and I don't want to learn English. For me, it's boring. Sorry, English learners.

[@attachou]

I'm learning Finnish too!

[@vivaobento]

I will learn Finnish next year and i am happy to read this!

[@шибкоумнаяоднако]

@@vivaobento, good luck to you! It's fun, and there are some jokes that I really enjoyed, I hope, you'll like this course as much as I do.

[@vanessaheesen8154]

I started learning Dutch on DL years ago. The program helped me learn a lot of pretty common words and nearly all of the basic grammer. Now, I also discovered as I was advancing to the A2 level that I'm not an intuative learner of languages, so once I got past the very basic stuff, I really started to struggle with the grammer on DL. That's when I switched self-study apps to one that actually teaches you the language rules (Babbel). The 2 together have gotten me to the point where I could sign up for an A2 course after I moved to the Netherlands. The intake interview gave me the choice of A2 or B1, but I recognized that I needed a bit more help with the finer points of the A2 grammer, so I opted to start there. DL and Babbel are excellent tools and ways to start building some language skills, and they are perfectly valid avenues of study.

[@davidbrisbane7206]

_"Walking isn't going to get you anywhere"_ 🤣😂🤣😂.

[@Kynia]

Duolingo helped me make strides back when I was learning Russian because it kept me consistent and I really enjoyed it, and still do. I discovered that I enjoyed learning languages when I started using it and I continue to do so every day. Yes, of course, I used and still use other resources like speaking with natives, reading in my target language, listening to music, watching films, etc, but sometimes I'd have lazy days where the only practice I'd have was keeping up my Duolingo streak. Besides, as someone who couldn't really afford classes or paid apps, Duolingo was and is super accessible being a free app. People like Lamont need to mind their business and go ahead and learn the way that's best for them instead of trying to bring others down when they use something that works for them.

[@melissa-annnelson3667]

I love your long sit down videos :) this is why I subscribed like 12 years ago!

[@riancarvalho1364]

Both of you didn't understand totally what the other was saying

[@ilfaitfroid9739]

I've been learning French for a couple of years. I made great progress when I hit Duolingo hard for about 6 months. (I don't have hours to spend on language learning either.) Your points are spot on.

[@cerys113]

people just love to hate on what’s accessible. not saying its 100% classism but its just something i always notice when it comes to learning.

[@evan]

especially if you can make money off of promoting the paid options 🤑

[@terryhayward7905]

"Probably being shitty, or French" perfect

[@aimeesparkles2152]

I've been learning different languages for about 20 years in different ways. Sure, immersion forces you to learn otherwise you can't order food or find your way around but not everyone has the means to go to a country that speaks the target language. I perfected my accent by watching TV shows, I picked up slang from chatting with friends who speak that language and learned grammar from in person lessons. BUT I also learned basics from Duolingo in certain languages! For Norweigan for example, there's less media to consume, less people I know who are/speak Norwegian so Duo felt like a good compromise (especially without having to spend money)! I'm by no means fluent but could get around just fine earlier this year and understand small talk. I can watch shows and listen to podcasts in Norwegian now and Duo was my starting point and I continued to practise with it to this day. Duo has gotten worse imo but if you want to learn (for free), have some fun doing it and not have to devote your life to it, Duo is perfect! I hate how some "polyglots" feel like they have to shit on other people learning to stroke their own egos. For them, Duo is "too easy", not sophisticated enough and they want people to struggle like we might have in the past before Duo existed. Who cares how you got there or how long it took? Who cares what method was used as long as it worked for you?!

[@TrueWeltall]

In German Duolingo has gotten better.

[@AlexBarnes-v2d]

Never was a fan of Duolingo, but hey if it helps others then good. When I asked Belgians how they learned english ; their answer was watching film, listening to music, and reading books in english. I just copied what they did no class no duolingo. Happy you learned another language it means youll be able to enjoy the culture more !

[@toedlicherlusthase]

I watched both of your videos, but you are right about not having to get from point A (like, zero fluency) to point B (full fluency) within a set (and really short) amount of time. I liked the analogy I once saw in an interview on another channel, in which the interviewee stated it will take as long as it has to to learn something new (The video was about reading books in general, though.), and that is okay, it is supposed to be enjoyed and one would not brag about the short amount of time one has intercourse, for example. That said, I have my own reasons not to use Duolingo, the main being that after maybe two or three days, I only care about upholding the streak and competing against other learners in the leagues, and that just sucks the fun out of the entire experience, I think? I know myself, and I know this vicious cycle wouldn't stop even if I tried only to focus on the languages I want to learn... Either way, please enjoy what you are doing. Please don't let somebody else tell you your path is not valid. I for once started learning Italian by only using Duolingo in the beginning, and even though now I branched out into also listening to podcasts in Italian, watching videos in Italian, and reading magazines in Italian, ... if it weren't for Duolingo, I wouldn't have gotten the feeling that that was a task I could tackle. Does this make sense even? (Right now, I am focusing more on Japanese again, and yes, learning multiple languages at once can be a topic in itself, but... I just like spending my time learning languages.) Also, I am a native German speaker. The thing is, I would feel bad correcting a lot of people. I am currently trying to help somebody better their German skills, and when I correct them (Which I do...) I don't want to discourage them from learning, because a) they are really speaking the language great already & I understand what they are trying to convey, and b) I don't want to hurt their feelings or drive to further learn it. I guess I am not that blunt :D. But some people are, not going to make this sound like all Germans are like me in this situation. I know I am just a random person on the internet, but if you ever need help with the language, or just some content to watch or listen to, let me know :).

[@KiraFriede]

I am a german native speaker and was struggling to remember the German word for "punishment" today.

[@ishathakor]

i'm one of lamont's subscribers. i get what he was trying to say in this video but i think he said it in a really weird and roundabout way and also that it was unfair to single you out as an example of someone who isn't fluent in german. i kind of think you're both talking around each other and coming at the duolingo issue with two very different perceptions of what duolingo being helpful means. imo, the issue with duolingo isn't that it's useless - it's that duolingo has a limited set of uses and advertises itself in a way that convinces people if they do 5 minutes of duolingo every day they'll becoming fluent in a foreign language. so a lot of the backlash is also kind of extreme and people start decrying duolingo as useless. and with defense of duolingo inevitably come a lot of people who use duolingo to supplement their other learning but end up giving most of the credit to duolingo. i'm not saying this is you because i genuinely just don't know you but i've had friends who've literally been going to regular french classes and watching french tv while also using duolingo and then given all the credit for their improvement to duolingo. this isn't something everyone does it but it isn't uncommon. depending on who you are and what language you're learning, it's either an ok start, your only option, or literally the worst thing you can do to learn your TL. and that's really just going to depend on what resources you have available to you. for languages like french or spanish it kind of is just a waste of your time because there are other free resources that are far better and easy to access, even just other apps that don't waste time with the gamification. for languages like irish gaelic or hawaiian it's probably one of the best resources you can find, especially for free. for languages like japanese and korean you are actively learning things the wrong way. i'm a korean learner and i know people who literally spent YEARS on duolingo and couldn't even read anything out loud. they didn't even know that there was such a thing as speech levels. they were even using extremely rude language with me right off the bat because they didn't understand any of it. duolingo's format was actively hindering their learning of a foreign language. also, at this point duolingo is practically the poster child of corporate enshittification. the gamification has gone completely overboard. the entire app's focus now is gems and games. they've fired a bunch of translators and volunteers and now there are only a couple of people whose job is to check over ai translations. everything is about keeping a streak and getting more points and putting features that were actually helpful behind a paywall. they keep changing the tree to make it more convoluted and make people lose progress os they have to spend more time on the goddamn app. the fun vocab games are gone. they don't even have proper spaced repetition anymore. they don't have typing exercises anymore. i used to use duolingo as a supplement to just keep me in contact with the language but i stopped because they've consistently been making the user experience worse for years now. i genuinely think recommending people duolingo at this point is just signing them up for an extremely frustrating and useless experience. duolingo's whole thing was about making language learning fun but it's not even fun anymore.

[@spookydirt]

i enjoy hearing a good rant! with extra sarcasm. thanks!

[@marikothecheetah9342]

I wish I had 25 hours to learn a language. He makes videos how he usually spends his day and can learn 8 hours a day, which... I work for every day because I have to pay bills. The funniest thing - I use three foreign languages at my work. So... And yes, Duolingo will not take you to C2 but it's a good start to at least see if you like the language you are trying to learn before you spend too much money on the books and paid courses. And I am going livid every damn time people tell me to fly to the country of the language I learn. I can't forking afford it! Also, many people have learned the language not going anywhere. It's not a necessity, especially nowadays with so many free resources. People get a false impression that YOU HAVE to go to the country of the language to be good. No, you don't have to. I learned two languages without going to them until I was an adult and spoke them very well. Not to mention I am fed up with descriptivism, comprehensible input and the all hail Stephen Krashen. Damn! So sick of it.

[@sebimoe]

The clip at the very end is comedy gold

[@steph2plus365]

Best line ever... "stop enjoying yourself" ... Fun and small steps are useless. that's why babies that can walk out of the womb are superior to the rest. I feel sad that you had to make this video. You inspired me to use the app as well, and it is more fun to only dedicate a small amount of time since I have squirrel brain and cannot sit for more than 30min on something before walking away. Thanks Evan, I am having fun!

[@Snowshowslow]

Yeahhh... I used Duolingo in addition to reading two books and watching some movies with subtitles in Spanish and taking about 6 hours of courses and when I got to my Spanish language school their placement test put me high in B1 (or: about halfway through intermediate). But sure, it doesn't work 😆 Obviously I did a bit more than JUST Duolingo and I'd leaned a few others languages beforehand, but it literally saved me what was meant to be months and months of courses.

[@iancomputerscomputerrepair8944]

Occasionally I use Duolingo to learn/enhance my Spanish. Strangely I do not use Duolingo to improve my Dutch. As you have said there is no perfect way of learning a foreign language, it is up to each person to mould the learning method to suit them selves. Keep up the great work

[@nateykaiwatch]

dude who needs the jlpt when we have strangers on the internet

[@AndrewTaylorPhD]

Wait what, your phone doesn't have an app to turn you into an airplane? Watch this- *turns on airplane mode* *can't post comment* ah well, nevertheless

[@dapengu777]

Mal wieder ein sehr unterhaltsames Video! Ich finde dein deutsch echt gut. Mach weiter so, cool das du wieder in Deutschland bist

[@MikeTheWesterner]

Evan has truly become British, this is some fire