Examining the Wave Chinrest (violin)

[@AVToth]

This video made me try a center chin rest and the results are absolutely amazing. I can see the strings, all of them. That small change in alignment has even made it easier to reach for the streeeeetch notes. I found that after trying so many different shoulder rests and never finding that comfortable position others seem to have found that it was a simple chin rest that made the difference. All thanks to you.

[@loralynstaples5483]

Amy, I am so so so so happy to hear this! Hooray!

[@JustChinook]

I used Padauk quite often as a woodworker. We pronounced it Pa-DOOK, whether that was correct or not. It starts out a bright red-orange when freshly cut, then turns into a medium-dark stripey brown with age. It’s relatively light weight as far as hardwoods go, and has big open pores which probably explains its superior acoustic properties. Padauk is a much more affordable and environmentally friendly alternative to the other exotic hardwoods (ebony, rosewood) commonly used on violins.

[@RedDesertViolin]

Wow Etsuko, thanks for this great info! That makes me so happy to know there is a GREAT environmental alternative hardwood out there! This mystery wood is very fascinating.

[@user-yishtabachshmo]

@@RedDesertViolin I am maybe the only person in the world to have a violin made back and sides with paduk. It has a beautiful deep red back. Sounds very mellow too. Made by Lipkin Algransti in London.

[@loralynstaples5483]

@@user-yishtabachshmo I would love to hear that violin!

[@user-yishtabachshmo]

@@loralynstaples5483 I sent you a recording and a picture to the support email in your website. I'd love to hear your opinion.

[@user-yishtabachshmo]

Lora did you think of doing a video about the Performa shoulder rest?

[@chteich1]

I love watching you play the violin. It looks so easy and fluid! Really beautiful! Christiane

[@RedDesertViolin]

How nice of you. Thank you!

[@frayneashley1477]

Thank you for pointing out preferred head positions to match chin tests. I have TMJ. The jaw actually slides out of place at times so finding the right support with a chin rest is difficult.

[@RedDesertViolin]

Hi Frayne, TMJ makes it difficult, but it's a WONDERFUL time to find comfort on violin...ergonomics are so advanced now. For you, I would advise that you spend as much time and money as you can to find the best fit. Look at my video on the "Kreddle" chinrest and compare it to the Wave. Then, look at my video on the "Stuber" chinrest, and possibly even consider getting a custom-made one by Gary FRisch. Food for thought. Goood luck!!!

[@bbsunsun]

What you are doing is very appreciated. I still suffer from holding violin, shoulder rest. You give me clues to start improving. Thank you for your time to help us!!

[@RedDesertViolin]

You can ask questions here. It takes me awhile to asnwer, but I'll do my best. I also plan to do more videos on this topic soon, so keep your eye on my channel. (be sure to subscribe) Talk to you later!

[@michaeldaniel1496]

Thank you for reviewing the Wave chin rests! I'm in the market for a replacement and I have had these recommended to me by several violinists. You gave us some really great insights into the differences in the models!

[@RedDesertViolin]

YOu are welcome. Thanks for your feedback!

[@normul5984]

Love my WAVE - thanks for the recommendation and review, Lora!!!

[@RedDesertViolin]

I am SO GLAD to hear that you like your Wave! I am having LOTS of students try them and like them! (To be honest, it is not a good fit for me....but that just shows that every body is different!)

[@cradlecap123]

Wow, I noticed a big difference with the free and open sound of the 'wave' rests. Very impressed. Thanks for your videos!

[@RedDesertViolin]

Yes, I love the craftsmanship and that lite-weight Paduk wood! Thanks for your comment.

[@cradlecap123]

@@RedDesertViolin Tnx for reply. What shoulder rest do you use? I remember you used to have a Kun.

[@gutbucket260]

Thanks for the review. I stumbled on to the Wave website but was looking for a good demonstration and review of all of their chin rests. I plan on buying the Wave ! 1" model and trying a foam shoulder rest instead of my Kun rest.

[@RedDesertViolin]

I have had about 12 people buy the Wave, and they have ALL loved it. Personally, it did not fit my playing style very well. (I love my Stuber) But for people who don't mesh with my Stuber, they tend to love the Wave. Foam is a good place to start. YOu can always go back to a solid shoulder rest if you need to.

[@luvhambo]

Oh wow, this was very helpful. One, I've known I needed a different chin rest for a while, but had no idea of how to select one. Great tips, thank you. Two, some of my bow arm problems are, I think, related to having to turn my head so far left with the current chin rest (my bow shoulder tends to come along with the head). So, this seems to offer a way to help with that, and I do need more comfort in order to keep good posture. Three (don't get mad at me please), when I heard you compare your violin to two other ones in an earlier video, I did not fall in love with your violin's sound. But with the Wave instead of the Stuber, (sp?) I did fall in love with its sound. Much richer to my ears. Thanks again.

[@RedDesertViolin]

Hey luvhambo! How could I ever be mad at you? ;-) My violin had been unhappy for quite some time....I'm figuring all sorts of things out on it, better strings, closing up chronic open seams.....and it's starting to open up AGAIN! But YES, I agree.....the Wave made it sound even BETTER. Just like my Mach One shoulder rest makes it sound noticeably better. Violin is such a wonderment!

[@kevinbrianjohnsonmusic]

Awesome!! I've got an old plastic one and am looking to get a new one. Saw these and am interested. Thanks!!

[@RedDesertViolin]

The inventor of the Wave is very helpful. Also, you can see my playlist called "Violin Posture, Ergonomics, and Injury". It has other reviews on other types as well. Good luck! (most things will feel better than plastic!)

[@1cleandude]

Great review and the padauk wood is really beautiful! I wonder is you dampened the resonance of the stuber by adding the extra layer of cork? Thanks again!🙏🙏🙏

[@terria1254]

Thank-you! Love your videos and truly appreciate your attention to and communication of detail! I have a long neck and am looking for something to try. 🙂🎻

[@RedDesertViolin]

Thanks for watching! Yeah, The Wave is an affordable solution for people with long necks. But if that doesn't feel wonderful for you, try the Kreddle, or contact Gary at chinrests.com. He is THE CHIN REST MASTER, and he will help you if no one else can. Good luck!

[@SteelMyr]

Thanks for the in-depth review! It looks like the chin rest extends over the edge of the violin more than usual. Do you think it would still fit in contoured violin cases?

[@inotmark]

Just ordered a Wave and found it really improved and increased the sound of my instrument. I felt the same about your instrument as well, there was a more open quality with higher overtones using the wave chin rest. I had the same reaction to the Wave 2. The 1 works very well for me. Now if I could only find a shoulder rest that works for me (I am 2 meters tall...)

[@RedDesertViolin]

Hi Guo, glad the Wave is doing good things for you. Taller people I have known have had good luck with the Bon Musica and the Wolf Secundo. YOu might start there. Both are HIGHLY customizeable. Good luck!

[@mariolastepaniuk4957]

Hi, I'm currently trying out the wave chinrests. Your video gives me more understanding about the wave, so thank you for sharing what you think about them. I very clearly noticed the sound difference when you played with your Stuber on vs Wave chinrests on. Sounds beautiful with the wave on, Good to know this, so thanks again!

[@RedDesertViolin]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad the video helped. I hope you'll love the Wave! But if you don't, KEEP SEARCHING, because somewhere out there is the perfect chinrest for you!

[@mariolastepaniuk4957]

@@RedDesertViolin Thank you for the advice, much appreciate it!

[@user-yishtabachshmo]

I have a 🎻 violin made with a padauk back. Very mellow sound and looks fabulous. Should I thing it off with a padauk chinredt?

[@RedDesertViolin]

The two would go well together in a resonance sense, but I would definitely put FUNCTION as first priority. YOu could try them out, and see if it's a good fit for you!

[@user-yishtabachshmo]

​@@RedDesertViolin in the end discovered my whole slipping problem was solved with a chin rest that is only half gouged out, if you understand me. That suits my chin slipping. It has nothing to do with my sloping shoulders. I see Daniel Kurganov used non slip under material instead of rubber bands. Plus he is experimenting with magnets on his shoulder rest and under his shirt. I'm looking forward to trying it.

[@anneaagaard6010]

Thanks a lot for sharing your wisdom! Very much appreciated! If possible, could you please inform me, where to purchase Wave 1 ?

[@RedDesertViolin]

Here you go: www.wavechinrest.com/ and the inventor, Randall, is super helpful, if you have questions, email him. You'll love him.

[@DieterLo1]

Thanks for good explanations. Today first time tried to learn about Violine. All is totally new for me, but hope to be soon able to play a few notes or may be a very simple beginner song. But good to know about the function or influence of chin or shoulder holder. Greetings from Germany!

[@RedDesertViolin]

Hi again, Dieter. I am impressed with your motivation and passion! I wish you lots of luck! (check out my website and free membership at www.RedDesertViolin.com) Keep up the good work!

[@DieterLo1]

@@RedDesertViolin Sure! It is now getting better and better.

[@adrianramirez6854]

Hi Red Desert Violín! Thank you for proving this review of the wave. I seem to also have a huge problem with selecting chinrests. It’s very hard to find the right one. And while I haven’t really tried different shoulder rests, I have stayed with a KUN, bad decision. No matter what I try with the KUN and a standard Guarneri chinrest, I get either chin pains or back pains. Now I know this is weird to say, but my parents hate taking me to the violin shop, especially to be there fore a long time trying chinrests, to no avail. Either way, thanks!

[@masterchief586]

Very nice, I might just have to buy one of those. Thank you for the comparison.

[@RedDesertViolin]

You bet! People are loving them. (and the guy will take it back if you hate it)

[@bethsanchez3574]

I just ordered 4 to try based on your review and I can't wait to receive them. My neck length seems to be similar to yours and my new antique violin that was given to me as a gift has beautiful rosewood fittings that I absolutely adore but the chinrest flairs up on the left side and digs into my jaw very uncomfortably. I am hoping this design will be much more comfortable than the one I have now. My only concern is the colors not working well together. I know that sounds petty but I want my prized possession to look as beautiful as it sounds. How do you feel this color chinrest looks with rosewood fittings? It seems very similar in color in the photos but sometimes something close, but not the same, looks worse than two completely different colors. Just curious of everyone's opinion.

[@loralynstaples5483]

Appearance is second diary to the function! If it feels beautiful it will look beautiful! Good luck. I hope if works! Keep us posted!

[@JustChinook]

Got mine, and so far so good! Beatifiul workmanship, and no pressure points! The Bonmusica shoulder rest and the Wave chinrest seem to be the magical combination for my body geometry. The only problem I have is that when I have everything in what feels like the perfect set-up - head and neck straight, can hold up the violin at a comfortable playing position without shrugging my shoulders or straining my neck- the bottom edge of the violin, right where the chinrest clamp is, butts up against my collar bone and leaves a red dent after a while. I’m pretty sure it’s not a matter of the chinrest being too high, as the shorter chinrest I had before made the violin feel too floppy and required more head presure to keep it steady. Just something that happens? I can always put a thin handkerchief under it for cushioning.

[@RedDesertViolin]

Hi Etsuko, YES, that is a common problem, and it doesn't necessarily mean you are doing something wrong...in fact, unfortunately, it means you are doing something VERY RIGHT, meaning, your violin is resting on your collarbone. That is the GOAL!!! So, great job. But it is very uncomfortable, and so you might rig up a little pad that attaches to a leather strap on your button....so you can leave it installed. At this point, you have to be a MacGyver and rig something creative that works for you. Also, check this out: the maker of the "KREDDLE" chinrest (Jordan Hayes) is fabricating a little silicon strip that sits RIGHT IN THAT SPOT, and stays on the violin, no fuss. But I don't know how soon it will be ready for purchase. But it would be the solution to your problem.

[@JustChinook]

Pasted a little piece of moleskin to the bottom of the chinrest bracket. Problem solved! 🙂

[@RedDesertFiddle]

GREAT idea!

[@ntd252]

It seems promising for me for a more affordable price comparing to Kreddle. Is there any other chinrest brand and can you make more video about more other chinrest products?

[@RedDesertViolin]

I'll see if I can put together a compilation of my extensive chinrest research. Meanwhile, here's this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmTEgmetgJ5pb6M

[@dianeovercash6739]

Thank you for the review. I tried the Wave Da Capo, It's too short for me and going to send it back and try the Wave One. And I'm also wrangling with a new shoulder rest. I hope to get all the puzzle pieces put together soon. Never a dull moment in the fiddle world. lol

[@RedDesertFiddle]

Diane, when you are wrestling with the whole puzzle, try to focus on the CHIN REST FIRST. Find one that fills the gap between collarbone and jaw......then find the shoulder rest that helps you keep the violin in position in conjunction with the chin rest. Good luck!

[@sunsean3426]

What materials are the three wave chinrests made of? boxwood？epony？

[@RedDesertFiddle]

When I made these videos, they were made of beautiful "paduk" wood.....very light weight and resonant.

[@mohammedkebir8696]

Hi Lora, thank you very much for the various videos on chinrests. They are very useful and informative. I have struggled over the years with the comfort of chirests (or rather lack of comfort of certain chinrests). My violin is always slipping away when I play. I recently purchased a SAS chinrest, but I find it too small and I find annoying the fact that it would toggle from one set position to the next while I am playng. I am hesitating between the Wave and the Kreddle chinrests and I know that you have evaluated both of them. I love the shape of the Wave which seems larger than the Kreddle, and also the appearance of the wood which is better for the Wave, IMO. However, the Kreddle has many adjustments that you can make right on your own chinrest without the need of returning other pieces to the manufacturer. Do you think one is better than the other? Which one would you recommend?

[@RedDesertViolin]

Hi Mohammed, SO MANY people have reported to me that they could not find a chinrest that fits them......and the WAVE was the perfect solution for them. I would try the Wave first, and if that doesn't solve your problems, return it, and try the Kreddle. (I think the Wave will solve your issue) BUT FIRST: Have you tried the STUBER....? That's what I use personally. It has a nice large chin-cup, and it has a "hump" that keeps the violin against your neck, because it hooks your jawbone. If you haven't seen my videos about the Stuber, search youtube for the videos. And DO NOT buy a fake on Amazon or elsewhere. You can only get the real deal from Gary Frisch at www.chinrests.com. Now, back to the Wave: 1) The inventor (Randall) will send you 3 different sizes, and you return the 2 that you don't want. 2) The inventor is very helpful in advising customers how to use the shoulder rest 3) The Wave is SIMPLE, and doesn't require all the complex adjustments. The Kreddle: 1) the main advantage of the Kreddle is its SUPER adjustability. And once you get it tightened, it will NOT change its setting. It stays put. 2) The inventor is a non-shoulder rest user. So if you don't use a shoulder rest, this could be an advantage. Good luck! Keep me posted!

[@123jozef]

I can't find the question about the 5th string, but I see your response. So it's a C string. That is actually pretty cool, I just don't know it's placement. I can't imagine it being thinner than the high E.... I'm thinking it is below the G instead, which would make sense.....

[@RedDesertViolin]

Yes, it is a lower string, to the left of the G.....which gives us the range of both viola AND violin.

[@MrRickb04]

Just came across your great video. Thank you for the chin rest information. I'm pretty sure the Waves are giving your instrument a much crisper, more resonate sound. Just wondering if you've ever experimented with a Wittner Augsburg adjustable rest? They offer a few different settings. Thanks again!

[@RedDesertViolin]

I just looked up that chinrest. It's a really nice shape! And I love the mounts that ocme on it. (they have a name, I don't remember what it is) My only complaint (FOR ME) is that the cup is over the tailpiece, and I like the chin cup to the left of the tailpiece. But this chinrest is intriguing. If you try it, let us know what you think!

[@thegood9]

I have this and LOVE mine!

[@RedDesertViolin]

Thanks for that input, Jason. It's good to hear from actual OWNERS of the Wave!

[@thegood9]

I ended up going with the Wave I, but I kept my Wave II for my fiddle! They're the only rests I've found that work with my long neck when I ordered the 1 1/2" version. So I HIGHLY recommend them for people with long necks.

[@MathB_Official]

hi! I am very beginner at violin, and also heavily bearded, do you know of any chin rest that could make it easier to hold the violin without shaving?

[@RedDesertFiddle]

Hey Math, first I would say, if you find the right chin rest for your anatomy, you wouldn't need to shave...but I can't tell you what chinrest is right for your anatomy. And then, I would tell you that WHATEVER IT TAKES to find the right chinrest, it's worth it, so keep at it until you are happy. Finally, I wanna point you to a few cool products that could solve the "beard slipping" problem until you find the perfect chinrest. You can buy a "Strad Pad", which is a foam cushion that cups over any chinrest. (I suggest you cut off the excess....they are a bit bulky). It will grip to your beard. Secondly, there is a heat moldable product called "The Impressionist", which you place on your chinrest while warm, clamp your jaw down, and it takes a nice mold of your jaw, basically customizing your current chinrest to the contour of your jaw. (Or, you can mold it to any shap you feel you want....you don't have to mold your jaw). and it can be molded over several times. Last but not least, I want to point you to "www.chinrests.com", a guy named Gary Frisch is the most knowlegeable person on chinrests I have ever met....and if you struggle to find a fit, he is your huckleberry. Good luck learning the devil's instrument! (reddesertviolin.com has great starter lessons if you decide to find online instruction)

[@MathB_Official]

wow, thanks for the usefull infos! I will keep looking into that until I am happy! that "strad pad" seem like it just might be what I need :)

[@martinh1277]

Never ask this lady how to play violin with a beard. She never had one. Therefore she looks pritty! ;-) (Nevertheless, she could find some reasonable answers.) With a beard, have care of your fine tuner. Once my fine tuner grasped my beard and I was unable to make me free again, I tried. That is no good feeling! Luckily in the kitchen was a sharp knife, which was helpful then. Again in this situation I first would tune the string down and then see what I can do with the fine tuner. I hope that helps.

[@cynthia5563]

is that possible you happen to know what the difference between SAS CR and Wave CR? I am planning to change my chinrest but it's no easy way to buy WAVE here in my country. Thanks for the video , Love them.

[@RedDesertViolin]

Cynthia, there is quite a difference between them. The best thing for you to do is "google" or search for pictures of each chinrest. You will clearly see the difference. The Wave comes in 4 different heights. The SAS....i'm not sure what heights it is offered in....actually, it looks like SAS is offered in varying heights as well. BOTH are EXCELLENT chinrests. Since SAS is easier to get, i would get that, and try to buy it so that you can RETURN it if you hate it. If you need to reach the inventor of The Wave, his email is [e-mail]. His name is Randall.

[@cigarnationwarriors3981]

Do you think the Wave Chinrest would work for players who don’t use a shoulder rest, like myself? Thanks.

[@RedDesertViolin]

Definitely. I mean, you just have to try it to find out for sure, but the design is so well-conceived, I would bet it would work whether you use a shoulder rest or not. Now, for me, personally....it doesn't feel so great for me. But I have had lots of people who were unable to find something that worked for them, and they finally tried The Wave, and it was like coming home. (LET ME KNOW if you try it and how it goes!) YOu can always return it if it doesn't work. Randall is the inventor....he is VERY VERY helpful.

[@cigarnationwarriors3981]

@@RedDesertViolin Thank you for taking the time to reply and encourage me. I ordered a Varga in Rosewood to try first. It definitely worked for a couple Heifetz students. Heifetz never allowed anyone to use a shoulder rest. If the Varga doesn’t work out I’ll try the Wave. Thanks again🎻👍👍

[@cigarnationwarriors3981]

@@RedDesertViolin My initials thoughts and feelings about the Varga Chinrest are very positive. The Rosewood is beautiful, as well. As for trying the Wave, I’ve written him twice but he doesn’t answer. Is he still in business? Hard to know. Happy Thanksgiving 🦃🍽

[@deborahdey2003]

What model shoulder rest do you have on ?

[@RedDesertViolin]

Looks like I'm using my Mach One Hook for this video. I change between that and the Bon Musica. (for slippery clothing or turtlenecks I use my Bon Musica, but 95% of the time I use the Mach One.

[@DivaDeb1234]

BTW For your new projects in 2020 I would love you to video 2nd and 3rd movement of Bach Double ... 2nd violin so I can work on 1st and play with you. 🧚‍♂️

[@RedDesertViolin]

OMG Debbie, I Love that idea. That goes at the TOP of my list!!!

[@DivaDeb1234]

@@RedDesertViolin Thanks. I play with you all the time on the 1st movement.🎻

[@123jozef]

Padauk originates from Africa or Asia. What's really coo is that the wood contains water and alcohol-soluble substances. I'm sure this is a plus when you are sweating profusely during a long performance or playing in a humid environment. What's amazing is how cool the wood looks for the price. You could even say Padauk is "cheap"... OTOH, Mahogany is a great looking wood also, but it is extremely expensive. On another 'note' ... it's so difficult dealing with all of the different parts that you have to try just to get that "perfect-fit"... it's not like you can just try them and give them back. You have to purchase them and take your chances, hoping that the information you are given might lead you in the right direction. I suppose it is much the same with the guitar when you are purchasing effects. The only difference is; with the guitar you can just buy a rack-mount device and get all of the effects at one time for a fairly reasonable price and just pick and choose which one's you like.

[@RedDesertViolin]

I have a guitar friend who has TWO TRAILERS full of equipment he bought and ended up not liking! Most violinists I know have a drawer or two....so I think you guitarists are WAY worse than us fiddlers! ;-)

[@RedDesertViolin]

On another "note", MANY times, when you purchase a violin item and end up not liking it, it is very easy to return....or resell.

[@123jozef]

@@RedDesertViolin ~ that's a good thing. It seems like manufacturers would be breaking your doors down.... except that they had better be offering something they are laying claim to... ha ha... with you, you ain't gonna hesitate to call "bullshit!"

[@123jozef]

@@RedDesertViolin ~ That is a fact. I have over 40 guitars. How many do I play regularly? maybe 2 or 3.. and that's just because I'm lazy with them. I have about 8 different tunings I use and I don't feel like changing strings every time I need to raise a string 2 full steps. I like the Capo, but for right now, Im just using the guitar until I pickup a better Mandolin so that I can match my theory straight across as opposed to searching all over EADGBE top to bottom vs. EADG bottom to top....which is why I play my violin with a guitar pick when learning a song before I bow it. Maybe these are popular techniques, I don't know. For me, they just come naturally. I feel like Ive been playing the violin my whole life... at the same time... I wonder why I can't ramrod it like I do my guitars. I am starting to though... and I know this because the Rosin is all over the place.

[@a95180]

The Wave chinrest indeed seems interesting. It’s quite frustrating though that it is practically/economically undoable to get one into one’s possession if you don’t live in the States.

[@RedDesertFiddle]

Jonas, I agree....sometimes you know what you probably need, but you can't get it. HOWEVER: take that knowledge, and use it to find something along the same lines....there are SO MANY OPTIONS out there......you just have to know what you are aiming for....and you'll find it. When I dug through a box of old chinrests at Peter Prier's violin shop in Salt Lake City, I fished out the "STUBER" chinrest....and I immediately recognized the shape as a solution to my jaw bone pain. Keep searching LOCALLY, Jonas....you'll find something! Good luck.

[@yesseniafields5138]

Hi Red Desert Violin. I just bought a wave chin rest, but having the same issue with my violin sliding forward and not sure how to stop that from happening. I am using an Everest shoulder rest. I’ve tried adjusting the shoulder rest, adding rubber bands to help stabilize, but still have the slipping of the violin forward and done. Can you suggest anything?

[@RedDesertViolin]

Yessenia, it sounds like you need the little "bump" like the STUBER chin rest has. (I have a video suggesting affordable alternatives to the Stuber, which they sadly no longer manufacture). Search my channel for STUBER and you'll find it. The alternative is the EDU. That means you might be happier returning your Wave....unless you got an extra tall model for a long neck..... IN THAT CASE, I recommend getting "THE IMPRESSIONIST", which is a moldable putty that you affix to your chin rest, it takes a print of your jaw, and it's like a custom rest. MANY OF MY STUDENTS MAKE A BUMP instead of molding their jaw.....because they want a bump like mine. I hope this helps! Can I ask a favor of you? Visit this link, and vote for Red Desert Violin. I"m a finalist in a contest and I need EVERY vote I can get! Please vote daily until February 8! THANK YOU! www.aweber.com/bigimpact.htm

[@KG-dd6pq]

How much cost of this chinrest?

[@RedDesertViolin]

I think they are about $65....if my memory serves me well....

[@elizahalbrook7088]

$54 when I ordered a couple weeks ago

[@deborahdey2003]

THANK YOU . But I now want a Stuber !

[@RedDesertViolin]

If you have a long neck, you will probably love the Wave. But GARY FRISCH now has exact copies of my ORIGINAL STUBER at www.Chinrests.com. They are $35 plus $11 shipping. And if you have a long neck, he can make an extra tall Stuber for you! So.....if you want it, YOU CAN HAVE IT!!!

[@DivaDeb1234]

@@RedDesertViolin Wow. Ok thank you

[@DivaDeb1234]

Under the gills !!

[@RedDesertViolin]

And I have yet for someone to NOT understand exactly where "the gills" are!