Example Speaker Measurements: Klipsch RP-600M/Neumann KH 150

[@IsmaelMartinezPR]

Measurements are the only way to level the playing field, extracting price and brand out of the equation. Take the manufacturer to task and we can see if they actually deliver what they claim. Thanks Amir for the content.

[@Audfile]

Yeah except you won't know how a speaker sounds, you'll just have performance numbers. It's not really how you pick a speaker that *you will enjoy*. I used to think this way, when I was a beginner. It's a better way to pick electronics, but even then, worse measuring gear can sound better to *your* ears. You need to audiiton and have some experience. You can't pick gear by just reading a graph.

[@IsmaelMartinezPR]

@@Audfile No one has said that it is how you pick a speaker as every speaker will sound different in every room. However, objective measurements (same ones used by large manufacturers with anechoic chambers) gives us a starting point that is equal regardless of price. Again, no one is claiming or recommending that no one auditions any piece of gear. You as a consumer can decide that. A consumer may well choose to pick and pay for a piece of gear that has obvious distortion but she/he likes it, cool its your money. Others in the other hand, will only/or limit the audition to those that measure the best (with graphs and squiggly lines) as they are objectively faithful to the original signal. Those that don’t measure well simply don’t make it to the semifinal.

[@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea]

@@IsmaelMartinezPR for the average joe the room will have a far far greater dependance/enhancability in sound than the measurement a set of speakers will give which the increasing incremeants of the latter you'll have to pay for hundreds and hundreds more dollars... As for a set of KH150, you will have to have a *heavily* well treated room to make use of the full price you paid for, so measurements are futile unless your room is a premise... I see so many people in this community bragging and boasting that they're measurement-jackers and owning a pair that comes with such measurements but with a very shittily treated room, almost like the sound itself is a second priority to them or just not even putting listening as a main usage. How pathetic if so!

[@IsmaelMartinezPR]

@@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea I have to tell you that its really difficult to get to a main point of your argument. Again, measurements are there to level the playing field and set a minimum starting point.

[@nhennessy6434]

Excellent job, Amir. Underscores just how good that Neumann truly is. Just set it on a pair of stands, hook up a DAC, and you're good to go all the way down to 30 Hz. For many people, it's all the speaker they will ever need for 2 channel sound. And a very compelling case as to why with smooth directivity and eq, it's possible to fix a lot of FR defects, provided you have the know how. Perhaps a detailed REW walk through video by you on exactly how to use EQ to correct a few speakers like the Klipsch among others would make an interesting and educational KZbin video.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, EQ is on my Todo list. I am going to finish this series with measurements and then tackle that.

[@davecook8378]

Even better, you can use something like a Topping D10s to convert from USB to coax so that you have a digital signal path all the way to the speaker.

[@teashea1]

most excellent ---- nice to have truth instead of the usual subjective meaningless descriptions. I have two pairs of KH150's in my recording studio. They are wonderful - flat with low distortion. This enables me to know the truth of the music when I am mixing and mastering.

[@Adam.NavyVet]

Excellent comparison of a good design and a compromised one. What we can do with EQ is incredible but knowing exactly how and why is imperative to getting it right. Your Videos are a wealth of information and knowledge and we are fortunate that you are willing to share this with us. The truth is revealing when you know what you’re doing. BZ Amir….

[@ilyatsipordey1765]

Oh, my God :) I have Klipsch, and when I listen to non-electronic music, I am always surprised by the unnaturalness of the mid-frequency range. I was planning to change these speakers, but thanks to your video, I finally realized that first I just need to try the equalizer 😀

[@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea]

People here do not care about the sound, they buy speakers to look at the graphs not to listen to them

[@CirclesandSounds]

@@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea🤦😂

[@HeyYall398]

​@@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKoreaI would appreciate it if you could convey this perspective to a cardiologist, who, following an individual's initial encounter with a heart attack or stroke, delves into a meticulous examination of numerical data, blood test reports, electrocardiogram (EKG) graphs, and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) results. These medical professionals employ a comprehensive and analytical approach, scrutinizing every piece of tangible evidence to understand the underlying cardiac conditions and formulate a precise, informed treatment plan. Their reliance on concrete data, derived from advanced diagnostic tools, underscores the critical importance of objective analysis in making accurate diagnoses and effective treatment decisions. This methodical approach, grounded in empirical evidence, significantly contributes to enhancing patient care and optimizing the chances of a successful recovery.

[@HeyYall398]

​@@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea On the flip side, the auditory information gathered from a stethoscope, while valuable, is often just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding a patient's cardiac health. It provides a preliminary insight into the heart's rhythm and potential murmurs, yet it's not exhaustive. The complexity of cardiac conditions necessitates a more thorough and multifaceted examination. Utilizing a range of diagnostic tools such as blood tests, electrocardiograms (EKGs), and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) allows for a more nuanced understanding of the heart's functionality and the identification of any underlying issues. These advanced diagnostic methods offer a detailed visualization and analysis, enabling a more accurate diagnosis and a tailored treatment plan. In essence, while the stethoscope is a fundamental tool in a cardiologist's arsenal, the depth and breadth of cardiac assessment required to ensure optimal patient care go far beyond the auditory observations it provides.

[@Johnnytrades101]

Love your reviews! Few years ago, I adopted REW, a Mini DSP for bass, and Dirac in my system. REW gave me measurements, the others gave me correction. The result was completely amazing! No room or speakers are perfect. I can listen for hours, speakers disappear, just sounds awesome. 👍👍

[@AudioScienceReview]

So many people don't know what they are missing there. They spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on a system and don't do anything about equalization. If they only did what you went through and appreciate how much better the sound of the system can get.

[@Johnnytrades101]

@Audio Science Review Absolutely! Thank you for all your hard work, and insight into this amazing hobby!

[@ElvenSpellmaker]

It's weird how DMS released a speaker review shortly after you released your video and it really helped me understand what his measurements were showing! Thank you!

[@saiprasad8078]

Who is DMS ?

[@stopthefomo]

Fantastic walk through, Amir!

[@drdyna]

You should absolutely do a video about your reference tracks! I'm always curious to know what other audiophiles consider to be good recordings.

[@danielcaswell9945]

I appreciate all your videos and data. It's influenced more than one of my purchases. I do find it odd how much each camp seems to be at each other constantly. You cant argue with people who like what they like. People do like those Klipsch.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Evaluating speakers by themselves is very tough. No wonder then that even poorly designed speakers sell well and people say they sound good. Then one day they hear a better designed speaker and realize that was a mistake.

[@howardskeivys4184]

I always look forward to your videos. Your reviews, your educational videos and your tear downs. I have only ever employed my ears and wallet when making purchasing decisions with new speakers. I have never invested and have no plans to invest in any measuring gear, EQ software or DSP. I work on the principal that if your equipment is of a high enough and accurate enough, it negates the need for any of the above. Coincidently, a well respected and extremely knowledgable KZbin hifi reviewer has recently seriously upgraded his hifi system. He commented that with the new system he had to remove the DSP as it degraded the audio integrity. With the older, lesser system, DSP made a significant improvement. That, I think, speaks volumes and supports the principals to which I adhere. Strangely enough, just after I purchased my current speakers, using my wallet, my ears and a little help from some edc plastic, Stereophile did an in depth review of them. They described them as having a near perfect linear response, so perhaps my ears are well calibrated. In summary, whilst I respect the value of measurements, musicality is not always about straight line graphs and linearity!h

[@dilbyjones]

I love the Audiophiliacs videos. I was also surprised. But still love listening to his videos. I will of course use every available source before I buy something, including actually buying it and just returning it if things don’t work.

[@AudioScienceReview]

He is very good on camera and I too enjoy watching some of his videos.

[@Chokechain1111]

He is what he is ,a Harmon sales representative

[@Solus793]

KH = Klein und Hummel - now owned by Sennheiser/Neumann for some years, incredible prestige from this German manufacturer.

[@matthewhoult1350]

Great review and insight into speaker measurements and how we interpret the graphs the Neumann KH 150 is very impressive

[@ericmoss6110]

Love my KH120 as my LCR in my home theater and they do fantastic at stereo hifi as well.

[@jozefserf2024]

Klipsch seems to have gone for the old showroom trick. Luckily it's one that can be fixed by the user if they so wish. Thanks for all your good work.

[@vtkz]

I own Neumanns Monitors for many years and after a short break for something different (Unity Audio Monitors) i switched back again to it. Had the KH 120 & 310 a few years and i tested the 150 in February. And yes, such an awesome speaker. For an very good price, spec when you compare it to same priced passive gear… And Audiophiliac is the same like Darko, Robinson etc. They all say everthing when the money is right… otherwise they wouldnt all review the same (mostly bad) gear

[@josuastangl7140]

How would you say does the 120 compare to the 150 (and the 310)? Are they very similar except for low end extension due to woofer size?

[@vtkz]

@@josuastangl7140I dont test them A-B but overall sound is very similiar through the complete KH Range. Best way is to test them side by side in your home, because i used the 120A and no the new II Version

[@josuastangl7140]

@@vtkz Thank you! I'm looking at used 120As on ebay, so trying them at my place will be difficult and I likely won't be able to order and send them back anywhere. But I'm sure they'll be fine. Just wanted to know, if I could also lean on reviews of the 80, 150 & 310 to judge the 120s.

[@cliff4693]

Klipsch updated the speaker and got rid of the dip. Would be interesting to measure now and see if any of the changes that were made improve it.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Yes, I heard about that. Hopefully someone will send a sample in for testing.

[@XX-121]

maybe they got rid of it, we don't know, but in the meantime, what about ALL the people that recommended them over the years? just to have people spend $500-600 on some bookshelf speakers and think they got something nice? and now they're charging $750... for bookshelf speakers? i mean, i know they aren't the only ones but i just feel sorry for the people that buy those thinking they're gonna fill up a room with sound like talkin about. you know, the people that go out and make some youtube video of them in a room with vaulted ceilings, in a house with an open floor plan, and you can tell they spent just as much on speaker wire as they did on speakers...? when really they would have been better off dumping it all into some towers with descent sized woofers.

[@chrisvinicombe9947]

Hi Amir thanks for these videos. One thing I noticed ( putting my head on the chopping block ) was you dismissed the step response graph in the last video about the M audio and the Neumann in this one. There was a clear difference shown though. The M audio showed fairly typical tweeter then woofer playing (small narrow spike followed by larger wide spike) However the Neumann showed one spike only. Meaning that it's been engineered to be fully time aligned , so the tweeter has to be delayed slightly. Maybe not audible with music but could be a concern when watching movies or mastering audio to video.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Indeed the Neumann has that alignment. As you hint though, research shows that we are not sensitive to these kinds of phase delays as room reflections are nothing but phase "soup." Still, if a speaker company wants to deliver that alignment, I will take it. :)

[@TheLkdude]

Thanks for the great walkthrough !!! , benchmark of theory and practice !!!

[@audiofreq]

Those KH150s look fantastic. I may have to check them out in the future. I am using Yamaha MSP10 Studio references right now, would love to see they test on your rig.

[@Hirnlego999]

Very informative. Thanks Amir

[@hdmoviesource]

Just wondering, on your graphs, what type of smoothing do you apply? And, is this the same smoothing that you would use to EQ?

[@AudioScienceReview]

Good question! The CEA-2034 standard requires 20 points per octave and that is what I generate. I don't follow your question on EQ. The Q for each band is set to approximate the shape of the deviation in frequency response graph. Is this what you meant?

[@hdmoviesource]

@@AudioScienceReview I just typically EQ using a program called REW and they allow you to change the amount of smoothing from the sound that you measured. I was just wondering if there's any smoothing being applied to the graphs. To my eyes, it looks as though it's smoothed by about 1/12. Thanks.

[@jalbrink]

I think you mean what smoothing to apply in REW to generate the EQ? I believe 'var smoothing' is recommended.

[@hdmoviesource]

@@jalbrink okay, thanks, I appreciate it.

[@TryAndLife]

Only this video on youtube explain and education us for reading speaker measurements. 🎉

[@monx]

Thanks for this, love your explanatory style. You'd make a great professor

[@hepphepps8356]

A dip in the high-mids and slight lift in the highs is certainly what I want from a daily use chill livingroom speaker compared to the ATCs and Neumann/K&H speakers I listen to way too many hours every day at work.

[@eDXTRe]

Thanks amir for this very informative video. Of course the klipsch graph is not ok, but the neuman is active and probably has a dsp, so i guess they performed some corrections to get this almost perfect ruler flat response. I think the amount of passive speakers that will perform as the neumann active one are very slim. Im very curious if you have ever measured a diy dynaudio speaker called finale, a 4 way passive design.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Agreed that the kind of response Neumann has requires DSP. There are passives that come close but can't get that kind of response. Fortunately coming close is good enough perceptually. On Finale, no, I have not seen it. Would be good to test it.

[@eDXTRe]

@@AudioScienceReview regarding finale, they designd it in such a way that each drive is put in their sweet spot flat frequency range. Acoustically they arranged the drivers within 50 cm of each other. And using 6db/okt filter slopes. The bass driver used has extremely low distortion like 1 % so its a rare diy speaker

[@andreemilsen369]

Thanks for the nittygritty explanations😊 Apreciate the details. I sort of conclude from this, that if a speaker is not flat, but has on abd off axis response that are very similar, they can be saved with eq. But if a speaker is flat, with more diferenciation in on/ off axis, equalization becomes difficult/ unpredictable? Is this correct?😊

[@AudioScienceReview]

In general yes. In the specific a bad speaker can sound good some of the time with some music. EQ is definitely the key to dialing in the curve you desire as far as overall tonality. Every system should have one.

[@andreemilsen369]

@@AudioScienceReview Thanks😊 I am a big fan of eq, and always put in a little more kick in the bass🙊 (even have an eq between my preamp/ turntable and reciever (all analog mind you🙊).

[@rodneyarnoldi]

Thank you for the measurements which look good. Would the Neumann KH 150 spealers work well as "Hi-Fi" speakers in a listening room? I would have prefered if they had been sealed boxes though. Should I be concerned with the bass delays in the waterfall?

[@vtkz]

yes. i own them (with the 750 sub + MA1 Correction) and they translate so good. Its a great mix between a speaker wich you can listen for a long time but also dont hide the emotions in the music and is fun to listen to. The Combo with the 750 Sub, MA1 Correction and KH150 is (for me) a perfect combo specially for that price

[@rodneyarnoldi]

@@vtkz Thank you for your comments.

[@aarondrabitt9578]

That 2Khz impedance spike looks suspiciously like a notch filter. I would occasionally use those in my passive crossover designs to tame driver response. It would have the exact same effect on the frequency and impedance response as seen here. I'd be curious to see the crossover schematic.

[@AudioScienceReview]

That would be doubly bad if true. it means they added parts/expense to get worse frequency response. My memory is hazy but I think online analysis by another youtuber showed just poor crossover design.

[@aarondrabitt9578]

@@AudioScienceReview I was actually thinking that the poor design created the similar effect, not that it was intentional. However, it does make you wonder what kind of QC they employ? I have an outdoor pair of Klipsch, almost unlistenable until I applied DSP correction.

[@ford1546]

Hello. The perfect solution if you want a directional speaker where the sound changes a lot when you move left to right or up and down is to have a midrange/bass that goes up bright in frequency and a tweeter that DOES NOT go down that far in frequency response. The opposite is the best way to avoid this problem. But then you can no longer use a cheap small tweeter since they often do not go that far down in frequency!

[@ItalianCJM8232]

Thanks for the follow up video.

[@VoicesofMusic]

Great review, tx.

[@glenncurry3041]

Klipsch were known for a specific sis-boom sound. The response curves shows the engineers are aware of that! It sound like they wanted it to.

[@mediascapes2011]

The Audiophiliac is NOT a neutral HIFI gear reviewer, he operates as a brand ambassador, one step up from salesman. That's his livelihood.

[@markfischer3626]

Danny of GR Research measured the Klipsch and got the same results as you did. He redesigns the crossover networks and sells the parts as DIY projects. He claims higher quality parts matter. I don't know if they do but I'd agree about iron core inductors.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Yes, I actually tested his mod: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gr-research-klipsch-rp-600m-upgrade-review-speaker.35326/ Alas, he charges $240 for what you could do for free with EQ.

[@markfischer3626]

@@AudioScienceReview I know. I'm an electrical engineer and a music lover, not an audiophile. This entire industry is total BS.

[@XX-121]

@@markfischer3626 not really the entire industry, just the snakes in the grass to which there are many. it's just like anything else in life, it pays to take a few minutes and educate yourself instead of living in a bubble and only making impulse buys. but i guess that's with anything, and people are easily fooled. especially these days. actually come to think of it, in a way Amir/ASR is doing the lord's worK_

[@markfischer3626]

In 1974 disgusted with the then hyperbole of quadraphonic sound I thought about the problem of concert hall realism at another place from a recording by mathematically modeling sound fields using analytical tools U acquired during my education. After several weeks I solved it. The hardest part was figuring out how to measure it. That was vital because as my father who was also an engineer told me if you can't say it with numbers you're full of $H1T. Figuring out how to engineer sound fields in an impossibly complex laboratory using anechoic recording was straightforward and well beyond what was possible at that time. Adapting it to playing commercially made recordings in a home was an engineering challenge I've been playing with for nearly 50 years as a hobby. You can see my method in US Patent 4,332,979. If you read it ignore the first three figures. They should have been removed. The equipment was not at all expensive by audiophile standards. Better quality equipment as audiophiles see it would not have improved the results. There is nothing this industry sells at any price I'd trade my prototype for. It's an entirely different technology based on different assumptions and different methods. It has no commercial value.

[@milkyway8353]

Great video man. Would love to see another German company Adam Audio A7V speakers with and without Sonarworks app for speakers. They also have these ribbon tweeters . Something to look into maybe

[@elvirredzepovic6898]

Not even in the ballpark, but then again you get what you pay for. A7V are good BUDGET speakers.

[@AudioScienceReview]

I have reviewed a number of Adam speakers. See them here: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?search/41796703/&q=adam+review&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance I have not tested the A7V though. As noted, they are more of a budget monitor but do perform well especially if you can use EQ to fix the one or two things that are wrong with them.

[@HeyYall398]

Loved it! Thank you Amir!

[@deanedgx]

great work Amir.

[@skip1835]

The education continues - thanks Amir. Extremely informative. On another front, sort of turns my head just a bit, not a huge biggie, but in imo, you don't need to be describing subject reviewer's as if they look upon themselves as being able to "walk on water", sure, ego is everywhere and there are A holes everywhere in life, our hobby being no exception. I would gladly call out a couple of objective reviewers that I refuse to even watch or listen to, particularly one, he's extremely popular, show him the water, for sure he'll walk on it - so the "walk on water" thing exists on both sides of the objective, subjective divide. One thing I want to point out about Stereophile's JA is that he has, for decades, tried to narrow that gap or divide which is exactly what you're quoting him on even though you're reading into it critically, yeah, he's soft pedaling a bit but also very clearly pointing out that there's an anomaly regarding the "suck out" in the RP-600m's, but he's doing so politely, not going out of his way to be insulting to anyone. The comment regarding SG was very interesting to me, actually, I never would have "guessed" his choices myself, but I'd be more interested in why you might think that SG made the choices he did make, like you must be thinking "maybe this or maybe that" etc. given your suggested measurements and probable problems of the low powered tube amp that he picked - rather than, in a disguise sort of way, simply tossing him "under the bus", what I mean is, what would you suggest that he may be liking about those choices? All said, please don't take me the wrong way, the divide thing has always bothered me, life's too short - - my primary message to you (not that I consider myself at all important) is this speaker series you've given us is outstanding, obviously well beyond YT's overall (generally speaking) content - and - GREATLY appreciated. 🙏

[@AudioScienceReview]

Thanks for the comments. Much appreciated. On Steve Guttenberg, I was very surprised and don't have any explanation for his selection of Klipsch as his end game speaker. Maybe it takes him back to his youth and sound that he liked then.

[@marct9587]

Lol, so the lesson I learned from this video is -- if you're technically deficient and don't know how to "correct" the response of the Klipsch, just get the Neumann!

[@AudioScienceReview]

:) The Neumann is a lot more expensive though. Better alternative would be a passive speaker without that dip or an active monitor that costs a lot less than KH 150. Of course if budget is not an issue, the Neumann is a superb choice.

[@vtkz]

​@@AudioScienceReview Or choose the KH120 or KH80 and buy their DSP Subwoofer. A Neumann KH750 + KH120 & MA1 Correction is (for me) very hard to beat at this pricepoint of 3100eur (Mic + Software incl).

[@josuastangl7140]

@@vtkzIs the 120 very similar to the 150, except for low end extension due to woofer size?

[@stephenyoud6125]

Great review and great result from Neumann, and totally unsurprising from Klipsch. Danny Richie at GR-Research found the same thing (with pretty much all the Klipsch speakers he’s sent) and he fixes it with a new crossover design with better quality parts. It seems to be a common issue with Klipsch and B&W speakers to have a mid suckout and exaggerated highs, often caused by the drivers not reaching each other and not summing

[@zachansen8293]

19:30 "fair amount of power" for a 86db speaker isn't really that much power to a modern amp. It's not hard to get a good 100w amp these days. You just aren't going to drive it loud off a single ended tube amp.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Agreed. I was talking in the context of tube amps that can't put out more than a few clean watts. 100 Watts is certainly plenty for most situations.

[@plasticpippo201]

as usual thanks Amir for a great explanation of all things audio. i keep learning from your reviews on the forum and videos too. i would be very interested on you reviewing the APS Klasiks 2020 as i have bought a pair and they sound really good to my untrained ear, so would love an objective review. i believe they have a great price/quality ratio, but would be glad to know if my feeling is real! :) ciao

[@AudioScienceReview]

Thanks for the kind words. I would love to measure those monitors. Please drop them a message and ask them to send me a sample. Let me know that we have nearly 3 million visitors a month on ASR so if their product does well, it will be great marketing for them.

[@matijatatomirovic3351]

Awesome as always. What is your measurement microphone?

[@AudioScienceReview]

The one that is on Klippel is from MK255 from German company Microtech/Geffel. For room measurements I use an Earthworks. MK255 has extremely good dynamic range and low distortion allowing that of the speaker to dominate.

[@impuls60]

You cant just adjust the xo point lower with analogue parts if high pass or low pass filter is removing driver problems. You usally want a low lowpass filter on the woofer to remove brakeup. Setting a higher xo then that brakeup wont be dampened enough. Dsp is a super easy fix instead.

[@gdwlaw5549]

I really enjoy my Klipsch on stands in my home office . Cheap as chips ! They’re limited but I still find quite exciting to listen to. Selling my RP-600M would finance these Neuman but still missing 1.100 euro. I could sell my amplifier but how would connect my turntable ….therefore I need a phono preamp .

[@NosEL34]

I feel there is no right or wrong when it comes to the sound someone prefers. If you have tried other speakers and Klipsch are what you like then there should be nothing to be ashamed of lol, it is what you like. Personally I prefer a more balanced or neutral speaker but there are many people whom feel that this type of speaker isn't exciting enough. Different strokes for different folks.

[@gdwlaw5549]

@@NosEL34 I got sucked in by all the KZbin reviews. I have ordered a streamer with EQ. Cheap one but worth a try. I have an amazing pair of Jean Marie Reynaud Cantibile floorstanders and they sound superb but 12 x price of my RP-600M. I want something more neutral for my office . Looking at a whole bunch of things right now…

[@gdwlaw5549]

I won these speakers and enjoy them. What do I have to buy and implement to make my Klipsch sound better? I’m a newbie to EQ

[@AudioScienceReview]

I will do a video on EQ so you can deploy them. If you don't want to do that, there is a company that sells a $240 upgrade kit that you have to assemble yourself: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gr-research-klipsch-rp-600m-upgrade-review-speaker.35326/

[@gino3286]

Hi thank you so much for your very valuable tech analysis Your set of measurements tells pretty much everything I would love to see it adopted also to test single driver At some point Neumann designers said that the very good distortion performance come from well designed drivers Drivers quality is key of course Many commercial speakers even quite expensive ones sport so so drivers ... especially cone ones A very bad start because no amplifier can lower the intrinseic distortion of a driver The driver sets the maximum quality that can be achieved from a speaker Unfortunately even manufacturers' datasheet very seldom provide distortion figures Kind regards gino

[@qlum]

Interesting stuff, I should look into improving my setup at some point. Only problems 1: I am a cheapskate, 2: The place I listen to speakers most is terrible acoustically (on my bed in the corner of my room next to a 45degree roof) 3: I am lazy. Maybe I should look into room eq, but for now I'll just deal with it.

[@AudioScienceReview]

No worries about being a cheapskate. I am that way myself. I say that I am frugal to sound better. :) There are a lot of good speakers on the cheap. Some of the JBLs go on incredible sales. On your room, yes, small size will make room modes worse. Fortunately as you say, you just need to deploy EQ to get rid of boominess. No reason to have poor sound in your situation.

[@qlum]

@@AudioScienceReview Fair enough, just wanted to add the room is not small, I just chose a position for my bed that is kind of awkward for speakers.

[@kyron42]

Whenever I look at frequency response of speakers or headphones I look at it in the context of how easy it would be to EQ.

[@AudioScienceReview]

Very wise strategy. Sometimes I measure a speaker or headphone that is so screwed up that it simply is not worth messing with.

[@armandocamorra2488]

Thank to you a light comes into a nonsensw of the darkeness of audio world.

[@ford1546]

Can someone tell me if you can use the klipsch connect app on this speaker and how many bond eq. it has. and if eq. adjustment is permanently stored in the speaker itself? and whether the app has parametric eq. or not

[@Depo196]

Nice review

[@zachansen8293]

18:35 I thought klipsch did corner loaded in room response for their measurements

[@AudioScienceReview]

Good point. They also use that as a sensitivity measure. Alas, no one else in the industry does that so it is still not correct.

[@rodrigosepulvedaschulz]

the musica nuda album is really interesting and strange ! I had to turn down my sub (SVS SB3000) by -3dB when listening to the cello :)

[@ford1546]

The problems you see on this klipsch speaker and other problems are VERY common to see on klipsch speakers!! Is there any hope for klipsch? It looks pretty dark!!!

[@kyron42]

The best speaker I've ever heard which is also my end game speaker is the MBL 101 X-treme. If I can make something that sounds almost as good for a fraction of the price that would be good enough.

[@AudioScienceReview]

I have listened to them at many shows. With the right content -- which exhibitors make sure they pick -- they sound amazing. Problem is, the bring that spacious sound to everything you throw at them. For many types of music I don't want that effect. Studio recorded content for example can sound very odd -- to my ears anyway. So if you can limit your music enjoyment to what fits them, then yes, they sound great and better than box speakers.

[@kyron42]

@@AudioScienceReview so while I love the results of these omnidirectional speakers the next best thing is a direct/reflecting system. I'm thinking of putting some speakers behind my main speakers pointing backwards which I could turn on or off at will depending on the music. I'm sure that would add a degree of spaciousness.

[@ВадимБайдик]

What is better to take for a subwoofer kh 750, neumann kh 150 or kh 310 ? a room of 20 m.

[@vtkz]

150 is more than enough. The differences overall are not realy big between a 310 or 150. Would always build up a subwoofer array, doesnt matter what speaker you use

[@kyron42]

Going low is good but can it go low and loud? Can it produce 100 dB at 40 Hz

[@AudioScienceReview]

Yeh, that is a problem. In the case of KH150, it does go and loud but obviously it has limits. The Neumann KH310 is my favorite in their line as far as playing quite loud. Genelec 8361A though is one of the few monitors that goes low and quite loud with seemingly no limit.

[@BL-yj2wp]

A single KH150 can produce 85dB (1m anechoic) at 40Hz, 100dB at 60Hz.

[@kyron42]

@@BL-yj2wp that's good but how anechoic is an anechoic chamber at 40 Hz?

[@BL-yj2wp]

@@kyron42 It‘s a near field measurement (afaik at 10cm) for frequencies below 100Hz. Not sure about the algorithm to calculate the combined response but there is an official standard to do that, the results are accurate.

[@veroman007]

phase issues with eq?

[@AudioScienceReview]

Tonality wins over phase all the time. In a listening room there are many reflections which change the phase of what you hear. The brain has learned to ignore this or you would go crazy listening to anyone in a room.

[@astcal]

Amir is DA MAN!!! alas the world is not perfect -- science and truth often lose to superstition and other humanity shortcomings such as ego, arrogance, self-righteousness, jealousy, etc.

[@shannonmiller5648]

Yeah I thought ol Steve must of been joking when he said he held the RP 600M’s in such high regards and I’m a Klipsch guy. All that copper cone stuff is junk. That being said I don’t believe that measurements ultimately mean a damn thing when it comes to whether or not we perceive a speaker as sounding good. I’ve heard tons of speakers throughout my life. Many of which were not only more expensive than my Klipschorns but measured better on paper. In fact I’m not sure how mine measure since updating the tweeter with a much higher performance B&C driver. Don’t really care honestly because they sound indescribably fantastic and that’s good enough for me. To my ears I’ve still never heard anything that even remotely comes close. Nothing against all the measurement guys but ultimately they really don’t mean a whole lot as far as how they will be perceived on a case by case basis. I know people that are just as blown away by them as I am and others who aren’t nearly as impressed. I can’t imagine what they’re hearing when they’re not impressed just as I’m sure they feel the same in regards to myself. No two pair of ears are ever going to perceive sound identically. That being said it pretty much renders speaker measurements far less relevant than some people seem to think they are in my experience. Opinions obviously vary.

[@thelowprofile9767]

So many ‘audiophiles’ were wrong?

[@AudioScienceReview]

It is terrible but that is the world we live in. Any random claim seems to win and no one challenges the person and say, "prove it." Harman performed controlled listening tests of speakers and found audio reviewers to do very poorly in them. Their assessments were extremely inconsistent when comparing just four speakers. Yet folks follow them left and right when they say this and that speaker sounds good. Of course, they never say anything doesn't sound good! I only recommend 1/3 of the products I ever review. So yes, there is a lot of junk out there.

[@thelowprofile9767]

@@AudioScienceReview thanks for taking the time to respond.

[@mediascapes2011]

re: The Audiophiliac comments,: Steve is a sweet salesman, since when do you take a salesman words beyond his commercial interests, however well disguised? I asked him many times publicly to disclose his financial interests, he never did!

[@edverbeek6292]

I am so happy I only has to do with my SUBJECTIVE enjoyment of my speakers. 😁

[@samuelsalins8309]

Interesting 👍

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

So the question becomes Is the best sounding system one that consists of the best measuring dac, amp and speakers? Or will it sound cold clinical and sterile without any character. If it sounds too clinical to have all your components measure well, what component should we add to our system to give it some pepper? The dac? The pre? The amp? The speakers? Should we keep everything measuring well then Add flavour with our speakers? Or Should we add flavour with our another components and keep the speakers well measuring?

[@AudioScienceReview]

Best measuring DACs and amplifiers provide full transparency. There is nothing cold about them. That is just unproven folklore created by company marketing departments. If the music sounds cold with that gear, then it is the music. On speakers, frequency response determines if there is too much treble for a speaker to sound bright. Note that speaker measurements guide you about 80% of the way there. The rest depends on your room and to some extent your preferences. If flavor is needed, the sure way to create them is with equalization. Using gear to do that is a random way to achieve a specific goal.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

@@AudioScienceReview Cheers, much appreciated 👍

[@thomaslutro5560]

Best quote: "You think you want to second guess every..." No. I don't. And I've never heard anything Klipsch that didn't make me cringe. Sorry. But JBL, on the other hand, puts out killer products again and again and again and again and again and again. Makes me wonder about Harman HR....

[@arthurhaywood2184]

DSP corrected powered speakers vs. passive speakers is not a fair comparison.

[@yttean98]

My surmise: Neumann KH150: Flat Freq resp project a "boring" listening experience. Klipsch RP-600:Faulty/Imperfect freq response will give the listener a more lively listening experience. Result: The latter outsells the former. Lesson to learn: An enjoyable pair of speakers seldom has a pure flat freq. response.

[@vtkz]

you cant say that just because you look at measurements. Its by far not boring just because its flat (good sound phenomenal and bad sounds bad what a good speaker should be). The Neumann gives you so much more informations of the music itself (depth, placement, stereo seperation etc). No Klipsch in that size in the world can give you that (its the cheapest made in china stuff).And when you want more liveness use the MA1 Correction and put in some more top end.

[@HansDelbruck53]

I think you mean sample speaker measurements.

[@yqh8247]

great

[@masterxyr]

absolutely but RP-600M so pretty :(

[@AudioScienceReview]

It is. One speaker designer once told me that speaker business is 80% marketing, 20% engineering! Klipsch nails the marketing department.

[@masterxyr]

@@AudioScienceReview I wonder how those maths would apply to Bose or Beats? :D 95% marketing? lol

[@dougleydorite]

Tube amps are to distort guitars… mind boggling, yes…

[@Lesterandsons]

👍

[@Antibackgroundnoise]

So if the measurements say one thing but one hears something different. What does one go with?

[@AudioScienceReview]

Depends on what product and what measurement. If you mean electronics, then I would double check that what you think you are hearing, you really are. That is, perform some blind tests to make sure your biases and brain are not manufacturing things. The fact that a tube amp sounds warm is much more likely to be due to the glow of the tubes than any reality with respect to their sound. With respect to speakers, you should use your ears to select among the best measuring speakers. Odds of a poorly engineered speaker sounding good is very low. Personally I have no trouble finding gear that both measures excellently and sounds that way too.

[@kuglepen64]

I have never heard a good Klipsch speaker. They are simultaneously both ludicrously muffled and smeared, and that despite the tweeter horn sizzling. Quite the feat to be that awful.

[@Crimsonphilosophy]

Yep. I have the fives. A topping Dac cleaned it up a lot but they are disappointing

[@ford1546]

Klipsch speakers have NEVER been a good speaker for me! I have seen SO MANY klipsch speakers with major problems after they have been measured with high quality measuring equipment. Yes, they also listen to the speaker.

[@billmilosz]

Speaker sonic character in a room is a matter of highly personal preference. People have different things that they listen for in music, and not all of us prefer the analytical sound of a studio monitor which presents the recording with minimal changes. Recording engineers need studio monitors; home listeners might prefer a different sound. It's not a matter of who's right and who's wrong.

[@jaydenhayden8592]

what s your point referring to? Yes sound is subjective, that s why measurements like Amir's here are the best we can do to see if a speaker is for us or not.

[@AudioScienceReview]

There has been a ton of research in the last four years to show that most of us are remarkably similar. Go ahead and boost the bass by 10 dB and see how many audiophiles like it. Most of us like neutral sound. The notion that studio monitors are analytic is a myth. They are accurate and present an even tonality which makes every reference track I have sound superb. A consumer speaker that is colored in sharp contrast, sounds good on one track and terrible on another. If you are saying they are analytic because their highs don't droop, you can apply simple EQ and tailor the sound to your needs.

[@sergeysmelnik]

Bill thats an old wives tale. Studio monitors are exactly the same as home speakers. You can use many studio monitors as home audio speakers and many home audio speakers as studio monitors. Theres plenty of very flat home audio speakers and plenty of not so flat studio monitors.

[@crtgamer2355]

If a speaker sounds good I don't think it's necessary to obsess over measurements. Of course there are limits but a smooth response doesn't necessarily equal a pleasant tone. I also think obsessing over room modes is unnecessary, music should be able to be listened to in any environment unless you want to hear what the engineers heard in the studio then you need a replica of the studio.

[@DSRT888]

Yeah you're just not an audiophile my guy. You're a music lover.

[@AudioScienceReview]

What is your definition of "sounds good?" In controlled testing audiophiles and magazine reviewers performed very poorly in testing four speakers against each other. Their own votes were inconsistent from run to run! See the research in this video of mine: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWPGpmp9fLaNZ6M Assessing speaker sound requires specific training and controlled environments. Since most audiophiles are not situated so that they can do this, then measurements combined with my EQ/listening tests can be great compass to show you the way. On room modes, it can create boomy sound that can't possibly be good. Play a pure 40 Hz tone and walk around your room. You literally hear nothing to ton of it. The change the frequency and you hear those ups and downs in another spot. Once you correct for these variations, the music will sound so much more open, detailed and pleasant.

[@johnlonky8591]

Just not forget there are other types, not just Box speakers. In my room 1000$ Magnepan planar speakers beat 3500$ Sonus Faber who mesure better. Amir allways try to use measurment as “religion”, but in reality thinngs are different.

[@AudioScienceReview]

I listen to ton of speakers and have tested many types including Maggies. See my review of LRS here: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/magnepan-lrs-speaker-review.16068/ Planar speakers can sound magical with the right content and seemingly infinite amount of time spent on placement. But across wide range of content they do poorly due to design issues.

[@johnlonky8591]

@@AudioScienceReview They sound magical after careful placement. But this is not a trouble, but joy to play with them until they virtually disappear. I read your review before I bough them.. Your review/method is not relevant for planar speakers, and I think you got to big room for LRS therefore you got no bass. Bigger room need bigger Magneplanar, it is rule number 1. Before you made review , you put thread on ASR “how to measure planar speaker?” and now it is a reference? Really? Also your method on ASR , where you listen after measurement is not scientific. Reviewer should always listen before measurement so that measurement result don’t affect listening test. But who will believe you even if you say in the future that you listen first, since you are one man band …. means no control at all.

[@tongchen2840]

😂😂😂

[@agostonberko]

This kind of measurements will say nothing about sound quality. Dsp sounds good in one spot only. Your mic also has a freq response, that effects the final results. Neumann is good, but nowhere near as a high sensitivity proper audiophil passive speaker. Klipsch is an entry level crappy speaker. Its not a reference.

[@vtkz]

You always have the one listening spot (Stereo Triangle) where all speakers performs at its best, thats what stereo is all about. You cant get anything in once specially they are nearfields and they are need to be as good as possible at the correct stereo listening position. And an Audiophil speaker is just a name, its mostly overpriced high glossed Stuff and High Sensitivity means nothing. The whole ,,audiophil,, named stuff is so overrated and says nothing about the quality, its an overused term.

[@MrBazsi888]

@@vtkz i agree, but i owned the best studio gears ever made, and they still not on the level as my living room system. i sold every pro gear i ever own, except genelec g5, which i use for my pc.

[@vtkz]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@MrBazsi888 of course its not for everyone and when you are more happy with your system go for it. Its just my taste and everyone have different Listening Experiences etc. I‘m totally happy with the neumanns. But most people doenst even try it out, you can easily see this in the youtube comments on all the famous hifi speakers. The Pro Audio is a non-existing market for the most ones. Is a Neumann, Genelec, ATC or similiar totally high end or endgame speakers ?! - that can only decide everyone for themself. For me, i dont go back and i realy enjoy my neumanns with their dsp options and overall sound quality

[@MrBazsi888]

@@vtkz i really like neumann. one of the best pro gear out there. i had genelec 8260a too, it was amazing for what it is, but it reaches its limits pretty fast after putting it into a bigger room. room filling experience is missing with monitors. thats the biggest drawback with them. they play really loud, but not room filling experience. for me PSI is above neumann. but neumann is on par with genelec. atc is mid centric but really good too.