Excerpt from the Interview with Jeff Foster, Science and Nonduality Anthology DVD

www.scienceandnonduality.com/dvd.shtml
"Is there such a thing as enlightenment?
Excerpt from the Interview with Jeff Foster, Science and Nonduality Anthology Vol 1, 3 DVDs set

[@CraigVillarrubia]

In Reality you can't label that which enlightenment points to with any word. Words serve only as a symbol, but not the "thing" itself (and it's not a thing.) "Enlightenment" is a symbol to reflect the True identity of Oneness. Thank you for sharing Jeff!

[@ushojedi]

Dear onlydontknow, the answer is yes you do need to know things. Some human beings have actually grown up with animals and they are, yes you guessed it just like animals. In terms of masters I was highlighting the clear distinction between someone with insight and someone without it.

[@ushojedi]

Dear forkfoot, I know from my insight and experience, in the same way a father knows when a child is talking beyond his means. When you have experience you can penetrate into words better than you may think. Unfortunately people don the cloak of freedom to support their ego. It is ego now trying to decorate itself with freedom. If you become deceived by it you will fall into a far deeper ditch than you have ever been in before.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi label those things after they appear, but those are just more appearances in consciousness, also not separate from it. This experience we've agreed to call "you", the coin, the thoughts: One.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi The mistake is not the appearance of a thought, the confusion is in thinking that thought or a series of thoughts is "me" or "mine". In reality it can be clearly seen if one has a look that there is no "me" at all that can be located and isolated as separate from the awareness is which the universe appears. It's all one.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I live in the San Francisco Bay Area in California. Probably has the most gurus per capita outside Arunachala. I served my time on that circuit and came up unfulfilled. I've encountered that peace one senses in the physical presence of some beings like you spoke of earlier, but I never saw it as any evidence of anything. When I left them I was just as miserable as ever. I suppose I could have accepted it on faith that something would have happened in the future, but that would have

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot In my experience my curtain is so beautiful, so unknowable, so mysterious, it makes me want to cry. Life is so unknowable, nobody knows the source. The mystery is existential, and fathomless in it's depth. You cannot it seems know anything about anything, this mystery makes life so utterly beautiful every moment is inconceivable. I find it inconceivable to hold onto any ideas or words or philosophy as right or wrong. But the loving heart makes one interact with all in awe.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot my awakening was like waking from a dream in that how I thought life was was not it. But life is not a dream. A dream is a mind projection but life is bigger than my mind. And how we live in the world matters. Enlightenment is real. The state of enlightenment exists and hanging out with a Buddha is different from hanging out with a chav coming at you with a knife. The external world is not to be dismissed as just illusory. If everything is illusory then the statement is redundant

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot beautiful :) doubt is so beautiful, it is a tainted word I prefer to call it courage. I knew we would agree. You have transcended the process but to do so it has to be there in the first place. From nothing to nothing but the process, the heroes journey is so important. Nirvana is here now everyone is already free but to realise that one must pass through the trials. I feel it is important not to tell people not to use the raft at all. However I can only imagine what it must be like

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I know from my insight and experience, in the same way a father knows when a child is talking beyond his means. When you have experience you can penetrate into words better than you may think. Unfortunately people don the cloak of freedom to support their ego. It is ego now trying to decorate itself with freedom. If you become deceived by it you will fall into a far deeper ditch than you have ever been in before.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Hey, thanks for talking to me, besides making me really chuckle, I haven't engaged in that kind of nonsensical spraff for ages, and it really made me soft and quiet and realise again how truth is so so different from words, wonderful. But speaking of false gurus, and authority figures, to get a better idea of my view :) or lack of it. Someone like the Dalai Lama is the kind of master that causes a lot of trouble. People compelled by the masses and what to think. any thoughts?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi From what I can see, what's labeled "mind" IS thought; there is no one thing called that can be isolated and called "mind", only a pattern of emerging and dissipating thoughts.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I gotta go to work, be back later. Since you're so keen on Gurus and Masters and stuff, you might wanna check out Nisargadatta Maharaj if you haven't already. He's another such "pointer", and also everyone agrees he's hot stuff in the spiritual world, which I know you'll appreciate.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi There is no difference, no separateness, between the thoughts and the awareness they appear in. If you still think that there is, I'd encourage you to see if you can find it. Is there or has there ever been any separation between our consciousness and anything else? Where is it? Where is the delineation? Suffering comes not from the existence of thought but from identification with it. Once identification ceases they tend to appear less often, but even if they didn't suffering'd end.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi There is no "Joseph Campbell", and there are no "people who think they have arrived". Can awareness ever be "lost"? Or is there this vast space in which all appearances arise and set, including thoughts like "I am enlightened", "I am unenlightened", "if you can't do so and so you aren't enlightened", "all masters say this", etc? Awareness precedes these thoughts and remains when they go, and would be there whether there was the appearance of a teaching or not.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I really get the impression you're just regurgitating concepts rather than speaking from what's actually being seen. From your point of view, what is enlightenment?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot It's ok I have no expectations that you will understand what I am saying. I was talking about my experience :) Let's keep it shorter? I get affected differently by different externals, do you?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi (I keep trying to post this, but it doesn't appear) It does exist. It just doesn't exist separate from Awareness.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi In this moment, what are all those mental firings appearing IN? Could beliefs, memories of experiences, or other mental movements ever effect that vast space-like awareness in which they appear? Is there anyone behind them who could ever "attain" it at all?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Ok please humour me that this is my way eccentric way of explaining what enlightenment is by me asking you questions, please? Once more, do you get affected differently by different externals?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I love responding to these black squiggles of yours, I just can't stop chuckling at what u write. My ego is devastated that u don't listen to me, I was so upset I had to hug my teddy bear. It just makes me chuckle so much that in your philosophising you say there is no such thing as an ego and then you talk about ego. Why don't u talk about .... and tell me all about ...... can ..... say existence?

[@emoshoes333]

No one who is truly enlightened goes around proclaiming enlightenment over "unenlightened" people.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Oh, missed that part. No, the self doesn't exist, and it isn't claiming it doesn't exist. The thought appears, the words follow it, but there's no evidence of anyone behind it. The self isn't claiming it doesn't exist; that's just what's happening.

[@adriandecleir]

So going by his argument, he shouldnt even be allowed use the words "I am a male", or "I have brown hair", because once again he is identifying with the self. Enlightenment can be used in any subject, like if a friend knows the answer to a puzzle you can say "Enlighten me" to find out the answer. Thats how I take the meaning of the word , and in this subject, basically its used for someone who KNOWS and SEES, and not just conceptually acknowledges no self.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot this is fun :) I have no beliefs nor no non beliefs. And I haven't experienced boredom for so long I have nearly forgotton what it tastes like. But lets get it down to simpler one question at a time stuff. On a 10 pence piece is heads different from tails or is it EXACTLY the same? Even though it is one object can we distinguish one side from the other? Is that 2 questions or really just one?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Yes i feel we will have to agree to disagree. You think I'm just playing with concepts and I feel that about you. For me life is real, one's consciousness is not all of life, life is bigger than me, everything I perceive is obviously within my perceptions, but my perceptions are not all of life. I am not the centre of the universe but a tiny drop in the ocean of life. I am in real life affected differently by different things but I am equally happy to be affected differently.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot When a child trys to deceive you it is very easy to understand beyond words that they don't know what they are talking about. Because as an adult you have a deeper understanding and have been through that stage of consciousness. From my own experience I know where Jeff is and from the point of view of also having met someone without an ego I know he is not in that state. It is like love it is only when you experience it do you know it. And when u do it is so so obvious the difference

[@deluxelex9056]

started making more sense after the first half

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot sooooo once again do you get affected differently by different externals?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Oh, so now YOU'RE an "enlightened teacher"? What happened to "and I will continue to go deeper and deeper into bliss and love and wonder and hang out with those whom no thought AT ALL appears to their consciousness" etc.?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot bitterness and a dismissal of the guru/disciple relationship in toto. The opposite reflex of guilt ridden people is to respond in anger. A master, a true master doesn't do anything. However there is something mysterious that happens as in a love relationship. What is love? It cannot be answered but it is the most real thing. Also the power of myth cannot be dismissed either, the wise man affects our psyche on a primal level. The problem is people want a new daddy.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi You're sermonizing again, which I guess takes us back to our original reason for starting this dialogue. You know these things how? Because Sri Ramalama or Sashimi Roshi says so? Or is it being clearly seen here and now? What you're doing is not different from Bible-thumping. It contains the exact same amount of authority. People like the man in this video point out things that can be easily examined within your own experience. Preachers like yourself demand belief.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot the last bit is refering to jeff not you :)

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi That question doesn't even make sense to me. Who is this "you" referencing? Are you asking if cold happens? If pain and pleasure happen? Then sure.

[@Forkfoot]

@BesACB Yeah, sure things could be said to bloom and to die, to come and to go, to be lost in delusion and to awaken to truth, and there's usually no harm in doing so, but they require a story to be told from a fixed point, which as you so nicely said isn't ever there. Change implies time, time would require a fixed point of reference, a separate subject, for it to pass over. Anything seeming to match this description will be seen through as an empty concept. So sure, we can play around with

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot deal! You can stick to being enlightened with all your thoughts, desire and illusory world that doesn't exist but u r still totally affected by and I will continue to go deeper and deeper into bliss and love and wonder and hang out with those whom no thought AT ALL appears to their consciousness who have transcended desire and whose love is beyond comprehension and quite clearly are different than depressed heroin wife beaters

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Thank you for the suggestion :) Regarding Jeff I am reminded of the greek philosopher who taught his students to kill themselves because suicide was the true way. When asked why he himself hadn't he said because someone needs to teach this message. People always find ways to justify. Krishnamurti had a similar problem teaching that you don't need a teacher. When clearly people do need a teacher that's y they r there in the 1st place. Ok it is like this. If you read a random magazine

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Like Mr Foster you have mistaken merely entering the path to being being enlightened. Some of the language of the olden days has been taken too literally but the path as Joseph Campbell says is thoroughly known. Here is one indicator that REALLY winds up people who think they have arrived. An enlightened one never loses awareness even through the entire sleep process, if you can't do that you aren't enlightened. simple. all masters say this. hard to take ay :)

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot We may or may not get o that please don't jump ahead but answer the question, we can move on later to who is it that's aware of awareness. But please please please just answer the question. How can you be affected differently by something that doesn't exist?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I can't answer that with words. I am pointing out toyou that your knowledge gives you the hallucination of knowing. If you go honestly into my questions into your existential experience, can drop your pride, you may (not with me obviously I know ego cannot handle being directly told it's wrong) at some point start dropping your knowledge and encounter reality head on. My way is via negation, by understanding enlightenment I have to empty u of your knowledge. so stop avoiding questions

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi What I said was that one can't rely upon spiritual authority figures because there is literally no way of knowing whether or not they're full of shit. You can't say "I know HE tells the truth because of MY experience;" it would be an absurdity. But if words are said which point to something immediately visible here and now, whether or not the "teacher" is full of it becomes a moot point. Jeff points in this manner. I don't have to dogmatically accept his "enlightened" state.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I don't like the cloud/sky comparison in this case because clouds are thought to be separate from the sky. I would challenge your belief that "Thoughts are not awareness" and see if you can find any separation between the two. If you've become aware of the vast space surrounding all appearances, see if you can find any separation in it at all. You speak of "thoughts" and "mind" as though they are two separate things; one can enter the other. I see no evidence for this.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Dear one, don't get lost in words, or over react against them. It's like this: our consciousness is like the sky, the sky is empty and pure. Clouds appear in the sky and obscure it. A grey sky is different from a clear sky experientially although the sky itself is untainted. Enlightenment means you experience consiousness untainted, no thoughts, no desires etc it is absurd to suggest buddha comes to a guru for a teaching but not someone in pain hence existential difference.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Right. Good luck with that whole thing.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot between someone who has love and someone who hasn't but this cannot be explained it has to be felt. Hence the double need of a master. Life is utter mystery and a master is mysterious. Until u participate and dropp all resistances you will never know that is why lovers look crazy to thinkers. But for those in love love is all and more

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot essentially it is both all consciousness and not all consciousness. It is beyond all words, it is beyond the mind, it is beyond. It is a mystery and cannot be figured out. It cannot be explained or held by a view. Anytime we feel 'oh it's a mystery' we have de-mystified it. It is never endingly unfigureoutable. But it's fun talking shite to each other :) I like manuel know nothing :)

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot How can you be affected differently by something that doesn't exist?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi What is enlightenment?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot How can you refer to something that is non existant?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi No offense, dude, but your agreement with or approval of what I said couldn't matter less to me. I don't see my story as having had any causal effect on This whatsoever. One could tell a story in thought of a man who sought, struggled, then awoke, but those are only thoughts, and one has to introduce even MORE thoughts into the story to say one "caused" the other to happen. Just as accurate, probably more so, to say seeking and striving were symptoms rather than causes.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Oh so the self does exist, you just said it didn't which is it?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot How can something non existant claim it is non existant?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi In retrospect maybe that last thing I said was too blunt. Lemme try again: I think my main concern with your comments is that they show a preconception on this whole "enlightenment commodity" the mind's always trying to get its hands on, & that's exactly what's being attacked here in this video. This is very threatening to the ego. Is it not possible what he's saying points to the truth, though? Don't look to your preconceptions for the answer; don't consult memory or dead "insights".

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi meant putting faith in someone else, what they were teaching, and something called a "future", none of which was particularly appealing even then. You see good gurus and false gurus, I see people who can either point out thing which will be immediately obvious to me right now, or who cannot.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I am love

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot The analogy of dream is merely an analogy. To distinguish a change of consciousness from thinking you exist in one way but really it is not like you thought. Deep down in our bones we avoid a punch because it is real. It doesn't change the fact we are part of one universe. If you think there is NOTHING to be done because it is all just consciousness you have fallen into the extreme of non existence. 'its all illusion blah blah' 'you're already enlightened blah blah' enlightenment

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Hey, cool timing. If you had a dream in which a 10 pence piece appeared, would you, after waking, say "I had a dream about a 10 pence piece that said heads, and I had another dream about a 10 pence piece that said tails, and I had another dream about me, and I had another dream about a question, and I had another dream about another question," or would you just say "I had A dream"? I can't find any separation between appearances and consciousness, just like a dream. Thought can then

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Also, you don't understand what I've been talking about. You've come to the conclusion that I see "nothing exists". I see that nothing exists separate from me, separate from reality, separate from God. I don't say nothing exists. I say no self exists, but that's different.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi So in case I didn't make myself clear, the period at the end of this comment will mark the end of our dialogue here. You can always turn it into one of your famous monologues, of course. Exit Forkfoot.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot affecting them deeply. A bodhisattva says you can help with this, a self realiser says you can't. BECAUSE we are not seperate we affect each other. Someone who can see others samsara can affect them. Milarepa also taught there is no path no meditation no non path etc but he also taught the a,b,c,s I'm not saying you have to follow a guru I am saying DON'T say you don't need a guru or talk about enlightenment when you don't know what it is.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot blessed is the man who knows he doesn't know and I am afraid that you know.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi WHO???

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi There are no "others", there are no "gurus", there is no "path", and there is no one to follow it.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I love u man, you remind me of a psychological child or a politician, as soon as they feel they are wrong they avoid. The old days can still teach us something, back then seekers would change they're views when defeated cuz they're concern was the truth. Why so antagonistic towrds religion, again with an extreme view toawrds something that is non existent? And how can a non existent have a view? My circle of truth, like gurdjieff, is a group of seekers from all walks of life and

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot I think he can be a really good case. People just blindly accept he is a holy man. Especially the folks of tibet and just do what he says. When this brand of spirituality reached our shores, the 'omniscient' guru factor coupled with the christian guilt has been a disaster on many levels. We could talk a lot more on the problems it's caused. But I feel that for a lot of people I've met, when they reached the stage of having to kill the buddha, they couldn't the flavour of this can be

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Relying on spiritual "authority figures" is one of the biggest and most common mistakes made. You have no way of knowing how clueless this guy is or isn't, or Chuang Tsu was or wasn't, or Rumi was or wasn't, etc. For all you know all those apparent people were insane, lying, or never even existed. Perhaps there are no "others" out there at all? Your own experience is the only one that can be examined.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot thoughts is the space that the Buddha refers to. They can become arrogant and start teaching that no path is needed. They fall into many extremes, but the're generally feeling pretty good about them selves and think this is the non attainment attainment. But it will be different when they're girlfriends cheat on them or someone comes at them with a knife suddenly they have opinions again. One day mayb u will answer the question? or b the tiniest bit real.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot You what mate?! And there was me just thinking mayb we can have an amiable dialogue, ach well, back to the ego it is. As a final thought, clearly to me from what u have wrote, u r on the path of will and meditation (u will say who? n what path? n there is no meditation etc but that's how u label such a path) be careful, thoughtful, in diminshing the path of the heart, the sufi's r a tremendous beauty on this mysterious earth, they attain truth thru teacher to pupil transmission

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi None of this attempts to answer my question. Maybe you're still typing though.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Haha! I just realized I have one of his books on my shelf, "The Art of Happiness", by His Holiness Himself. Think I picked it up when I first got interested in this whole enlightenment thing as a kid. I guess I've come to think of him as more of a political figure than a "master" since then, but I still don't see him as having any more or less authority than any of the other homo sapiens out there besides the one typing this.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Oh? So you know what enlightenment is?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot If there are no distinctions why bother saying you had a dream? Things are different but are interconnected. Tails IS different from heads existentially. It is maya or illusion when you THINK heads is not connected to tails. A rainbow exists, even though it is illusory it is existential. Realising it is an appearance doesn't change the fact that it impacts upon us in a different way than another illusion. The world is one AND it is not one. The world is LIKE dream. It is NOT a dream.

[@Forkfoot]

@BesACB ideas like change and changelessness, but what for? We'll only have to let go of them.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Sure, the mind can label heads as different from tails, a cup of tea as different from a cup of poison, a road as different from a cliff, etc. Our species wouldn't have lasted very long if it couldn't. But what does a baby see when it beholds a coin? Simply an appearance. It hasn't yet been taught that heads are separate from tails, or even that the coin is in any way separate from itself. Labeling and comparing are things that MINDS do, not God. God doesn't know what a "coin" is.

[@Forkfoot]

On the Dalai Lama? I never really think about him, to be honest, unless I'm at a bookstore and see his latest bestseller or something. Doesn't he not even claim to be awake?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Guess not. You were much more interested in the fact that I called you a bullshitter than in the three-word question which followed it.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot One of the traps you are in, as you have already tried to avoid answering, is extreme view. Extreme view is when you cannot even mention the word 'i' I say your being extreme, ALL the enlightened ones say you are being extreme, but as I say we will get to that, I am not avoiding, you are, we will reach that stage, but for now once again please answer the question: How can you be affected differently by something that doesn't exist?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot reviewing films u will have no way of knowing if it's true or not. You can believe it but that will only cause trouble as you will not know. However if you meet your best friend who excitedly tells you how great it is and that you will love it. A transference of energy will take place and because you TRUST him you almost know it will be good so you pay for the ticket. But you still dont know. True masters always say don't believe but they don't say ignore either.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi You seem to have a whole, whole lot of beliefs. If that works for you, fine. I don't really have anything invested in your realization or lack thereof, because I know that you are already That. Your awakening couldn't possibly add anything to This; everything about you is beloved as it is. Enjoy your enlightened beings and going deeper and deeper and whatnot. If you ever get tired of it and want some help, I'll be available.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot living in California I guess the closest I have come to that is Glastonbury where people are so astral I'm surprised they can make breakfast. I'd rather live with the bloods in L.A. :)

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I can only speak from what's being seen here now. I won't try to teach you or educate you on my conceptual holding of reality. I can try to point it out, and either you'll see it or you won't; it makes no difference to me. I certainly wouldn't have the gall to demand you accept my thoughts and words as containing any intrinsic truth whatsoever.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot doesn't change the fact that you would rather not eat flies and cover yourself in sick. Therefore existentially distinctions in the oneness exist. Why on Earth r people teaching you don't need teachers. They themselves feel people need teachers thus they r teaching. People find excuses with clever logic. But life is a mystery and can't be pinned down by philosophsing about oneness. What is your reality?

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi This post is made in reference to a unicorn.

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Ok back to simple questions if you can? If there is no need for teachers why is Jeff teaching?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot shit, I don't want to catch you out, or anything so bare with me whilst I ramble. :) It is not simply seeing an appearance, not everything is illusion. Heads is STILL SEEN as different from tails. In fact it could even be an horrific pic that gives the kid nightmares but tails doesn't. The mind exists. You, at the mo, remind me of all the eastern gurus of old and the problems they created. That the external world doesn't exist, it is JUST consciousness and is not as important as the

[@ushojedi]

@BesACB the two truths can't be grasped intellectually

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Yes u keep avoiding when u can't answer. Like the cunning politician, who is still a psychological child, he is not interested in dialogue but propelling his ego. How can I be arrogant if I don't exist? You got mixed cuz I pointed out that Jeff, is not enlightened, clearly, and is lucky if he is just entering the path. People at this stage for ex. often c the futility of questions, think that there is no point talking, that nothing can be done, they feel that non identitfication with

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi As soon as some separate dude is found here who is seeking to acquire this commodity labeled enlightenment, someone who can "have love" or not, I'll become your devoted disciple and cross the pond so we can go guru-hopping together. No evidence is appearing anywhere to support that what we've come to call God, the universe, love, and me, are in any way separate at all though.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Two full posts defending the possibility that you are wise and holy, or at least far more so than I am. Why do you care so much?

[@Forkfoot]

@BesACB Kinda embarassing that that ridiculous conversation will always be there for people to see. Oh well. I guess you could say "there is becoming", but becoming implies something changing into something different, something other than what it is. I prefer to say that the very thing that is trying to "become" is what's awakened FROM. Something that was never there in the first place is seen (by no one) for what it is. All is lost and nothing is added.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi Doubt, not faith, was and is my only salvation.

[@yelapaangel]

E = Love mc2

[@adriandecleir]

to me when you are enlightened , you see the truth, i.e. the self is an illusion. His argument is that if you tell people that you are at this point then you couldnt be enlightened, because you are still identifying with the self. I dont like his argument because at the end of the day if you are truly experiencing no self then there is no problem telling people this, hence the words "I am enlightened", where the word "I" simply represents "the body that is saying these words"

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot aw poor baby, is the non existant upset, big mighty words from the mouth warrior. Just answer the question. Why r u refering to ..... . . as a self?

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot To put it as clealry as possible. In the east in days of yore THOUSANDS of disciples following the path and being with a buddha attained enlightenment. In the west people not doing anything: none. ok maybe william blake but he followed a path. Even clearer. Thousands of Buddhas disciples attained, he moved within a small area how many people in the bronx have attained? therefore IN MY EXPERIENCE externals make a difference beyond any concepts or knowledge of oneness.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi ;)

[@ushojedi]

@Forkfoot Really you got sermonising and fluffy talk beyond real gritty experience from what I said? Really? You can be quite slippy!! I tried to get us down to simple, real questions and you went off again about oneness and things can't be distinguished like feathers and rocks. And awakening and dreaming. I have no beliefs and speak ONLY from my experience. I am talking to you. What is your reality? My last comments said: Reality is more affecting than any belief you carry about oneness.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi I would have thought, after all your attempts to teach me, after all your claims of insight and understanding and attainment, after all your "Dearest, most beloved Forkfoot"s, I'd be able to just say what I mean without going out of my way to pad my words lest your ego get bruised. I guess not. Really not sure why you keep going on about my "philosophy", either. Something's either seen, now, or it isn't. Not sure about the purpose behind that meditation & Sufism talk either.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi You're avoiding. You can attempt to tell me what enlightenment is without actually using your superior Enlightenment Powers to make me see. It won't BE the state, but it can point to it, at least sufficiently for an unenlightened schmuck like myself to have some vague inkling as to what you're talking about.

[@Forkfoot]

@ushojedi It was fun while it lasted, but it's not anymore, which makes it kind of a pointless exercise now. You really want to perpetuate it, but it's devolved into a silly game of patty cake which could go round and round in circles till we're too old and arthritic to type. Much as it may outrage you, I will never take your word over my own experience (especially after having gotten to know you better), and until you've seen what I see, you will never understand. It'd be interminable and dull.