Expats Who Don't Learn the Local Language

How do you feel about Expats who don't learn the local language? Heck - why are some people called 'Expats' and others are called 'Immigrants' or 'Migrant Workers'?
In this clip I discuss the reasons for and against learning the local language as an 'Expat' - you'll hear about one extreme story that I was involved with that resulted in Murder that probably could have been averted if a couple of Expats in particular had have prepared themselves better before arriving in Thailand / SE Asia.
If you liked this, you'd probably like my Mindkraft Discord server - come and join in the discussion on the brain, languages, tech, learning and evertyhing in between:
/ discord
Check out the Mindkraft programme here -
www.jcademy.co...
To order a copy of my Cracking Thai Fundamentals Book - Installing a Thai Operating System for the Mind:
www.jcademy.co...
If you liked this content please reach over quickly and click 'subscribe' and 'like' - that will help me keep being able to develop great content for you.
You can access all of my training modules at www.jcademy.com - create an account and get access to swathes of content and access to the premium content specific channels and related learning material from the Mindkraft Discord server:
www.jcademy.co...
You can read my blog at stujay.com

[@paulhowlett8151]

I cannot imagine living in another country without learning the local language. I knew of a woman who lived in Australia for twenty years and still cannot speak English. Even as a tourist you should have at least the "please and thank you, and where is the toilet" in the local language!

[@NCXitlali]

She should be deported

[@vade248721]

100% should learn the language. My knowledge of Thai has got me my job, condo, love relationships, great prices, amazing travel experiences and so much more. Yes you can get these things without speaking the language but not to the degree that someone who speaks the language can.

[@philip32276]

The problem is to speak the local language with enough fluency to understand what is being said around you takes years. I briefly worked as a Chinese interpreter and when some people didn't want me to understand what they were talking about, they simply switched to another dialect or used localisms I was not familiar with, and I started learning Chinese 58 years ago!

[@ouichtan]

When some Thai people ask me if I like Thai food and I say ก็กินได้ครับ oh my word their face is so funny! What is even funnier is when they say อ๋อแสดงว่ากินเผ็ดไม่ได้ใช่ไหม and I say ไม่ใช่ครับพี่แต่กินหวานไม่ได้ it's even funnier 🤣🤣🤣. Seriously though, you can have a blast wherever you go but by all means learn the local language. It's worth all the efforts of the world and by learning a language you inevitably learn a culture too. Isn't it a way to show them respect too by not expecting them to speak our own language? Only my opinion of course

[@craigross341]

I know a senior executive parachuted into the Thai operation of their company, and discovered one major problem. The people one notch below you can't have a western style "university seminar" discussion. They kept saying (of proposals), "What do you think?" They would reply with variations of, "You're the boss. You'll be right". They didn't know how to have a discursive meeting.

[@sazji]

I was just in Vietnam and met several expats while I was there. None had learned the language; some had made a conscious decision not to. Another was married to a Vietnamese woman and had enough to order in a restaurant and do basic shopping but nothing beyond that. It made it clear to me why Vietnamese always seem surprised even if an expat speaks very rudimentary Vietnamese -- even the ability to put together basic sentences seems impressive to them. I lived in Turkey for 14 years and it was similar there, though I think more people got farther, even if lots of them spoke what Turks call "Tarzanca" ("Tarzanese" -- Turkish has a complex system of suffix constructions that denote case and tense but also other parts of grammar like relative clauses, "prepositions," etc. If you speak in just dictionary forms of words, you sound like Tarzan.) once again, if you could actually put together grammatical, if basic, sentences, people were very surprised. Still, I think a lot more expats are intimidated by "tonal languages," and just decide that they can't learn them. Note that I say "ex-pats" rather than "foreigners" here. There are lots of foreigners who end up in Turkey at least, without much choice in the matter. Most of them don't have the luxury of deciding not to learn Turkish. They might not speak perfectly, but they generally learn to communicate quite well. To me, that's the basic distinction between an "expat" and a "migrant": The expats, as I see it, are generally the ones from more developed countries, who had a choice in the matter, and if things go bad there, have the choice of going back home to continue a basically comfortable life there. In some cases you can have both ex-pats and migrants from the same country.

[@LowDoughTech]

My plan is to become an Expat in 14 years, and I'm hoping by that time I can have the language mastered. Among a few other languages as well. I won't judge anyone's reasoning for not learning it, but I can't personally imagine living someplace without being able to speak the language.

[@g718ny]

Well start learning now. You have youtube, google, library, and the internet there isnt any excuses for not learning a language when more than 50 percent of the world speaks another language and also ppl have immigrated to and learnt to speak another language. Its just ppl who are "expat" are too self entitled and privileged... This is why they never learn... Its because they feel like they dont have to. Most ppl have learnt the basics of a language in 6 months to almost a year. Learn it now bro.

[@mpforeverunlimited]

14 years is a long time. Waiting on retirement?

[@richardbosson8597]

I've been here since May 1999 and I'm sorry to say that, because I've worked here as an English teacher in government schools, they don't want farang teachers to speak any Thai so they don't help us to learn. Most of my Thai has been self taught or picked up from my students. Expats also use the excuse that it's too difficult to learn Thai.

[@StuartJayRaj]

Yeah - unless you need to, you could be here 20 years and still not speak. Happens to a lot of people.

[@craigross341]

I know a guy in Nong Khai, North East Thailand, who is married to a Thai, has lived in Thailand for IIRC 14 years, and can just about say hello in Thai. Nothing else. It's amazing.

[@polyglotdreams]

Interesting story. I couldn’t imagine not learning even the languages of places that I visit for a few weeks.

[@patthecat6491]

Having lived and worked in California most of my life the refrain, referring to immigrants, was that if you lived in America you should learn English. I figured it should apply to me as an immigrant to Thailand as well. 10 years later it's still a work in progress, but I firmly believe my quality of life here seems to improve in relationship to my fluency.

[@igandee5383]

A great discussion, i couldn,t agree more.If your invited in, you should try to communicate on a local level.Especially when someone like yourself has done most of the work.I remember reading David Smyth again and again,but now with your work,the visitor or expat should realise its alot easier nowadays.

[@williamdavies2375]

Typically “Migrant workers” come from “poorer” countries seeking work opportunities.

[@andrewdunbar828]

It depends. I was in Cambodia a few months before covid and there were heaps of migrant workers from China seeking work opportunities. In that case although Cambodia is the poorer country, the work is mostly in China's one-belt-one-road projects and they want Chinese workers. In some backpacker hostel there were more Chinese migrant workers than there were backpackers.

[@williamdavies2375]

Hence use of the word “typically”

[@1519Cortes]

You’re very smart. Pleasure listening to you. Really

[@asiaexpat62]

I spent several years in the ROK on a Government project managed by a National company. My position was executive level but on contract. I may efforts to learn Hanguk but was not very fluent. The National company made efforts to never use English even though everyone I worked with spoke good English. This was so they could control every aspect of our job and interaction with the ROK representatives. In the end I was dismissed. Lack of cultural and language knowledge doomed all my efforts. I have spent most of my working life in the Middle East and Asia and learned some of each local languages but the cultural differences took a long time to overcome and allow full functioning.

[@obato76]

15:01 I think there's a hierarchy of Asian languages that Western expats feel they need to learn. Thailand is still considered a hugely desirable destination for Western expats, more so than Vietnam, hence expats in Vietnam probably feel even less of a need to learn Vietnamese. In fact, I suspect those expats might be more inclined to learn Thai than Vietnamese, because the perception (whether true or not) is that Thailand is more developed and modernized than Vietnam, hence Thai would be more useful to learn when they fly to Bangkok or Chiang Mai or Phuket for holidays. I'm Malaysian, and I suspect Western expats would rather learn Thai than Malay, even though Malay is a much easier language to learn. Because again, Thailand is a more popular expat destination than Malaysia.

[@Gabriel-l]

I think it also comes from the fact that Malaysians in general can communicate in English to a comprehensible level, barring individuals from rural communities. You can expect most people in cities like KL, JB, Penang and Ipoh to be able to communicte in bare minimum English or better. This proficiency means that there is less push for expats to learn the local language.

[@allenlindow1211]

You are correct regarding VN. They call expats/foreigners tây in vietnamese, and let me tell you they will 100% leverage the language in all circumstances against you to some degree. That is not to say that everyone is out to get you, but in subtle ways they are loyal to each other first. There is a certian perception that all local have toward expats, and it's our duty and responsibiliy to represent our on countries, and ourselves in the best light by showing property respect. Anyway, moral of the story is once I learned vietnamese and started to listening to what was going on around me....a whole new world emerged, and was huge benefit for Thai learning.

[@AbsoluteZero6714]

@@Gabriel-l On many days I could get by in Penang using Chinese and Chinese alone. No need for English.

[@bennettbullock9690]

Yes, I do believe expats should study the local language religiously, and it will benefit them. When I became somewhat proficient in Mandarin, I noticed two things. In business environments, my knowledge of the language could be a little unsettling to people, but if I pretended I didn't understand, I got a 360 view of what people around me were thinking. If they were dishonest in negotiating a contract, I would know, because they just blabbed their intentions right in front of me. But, while this should be the case, there are only so many hours in the day. An expat who lives in a foreign country longer than two years should achieve intermediate proficiency at least, but it requires a huge amount of energy, energy that not everyone has. I think the only guarantor of language proficiency is interacting with the host society *as a native*. Meaning, negotiating contracts, interviewing, dealing with the local bureaucracy, buying an apartment, listening to office gossip, and working in a non-expat-type job. This is a huge risk to take if you're from an affluent country. You aren't going to earn as much, your employment history may not be taken seriously back home, and you could easily fall behind on whatever financial obligations you may have. Moreover, if you're from a more straight-spoken culture, living in a face-saving Asian culture will tax you emotionally, since it's all about "getting it" without being told. It's no coincidence that so many expats just give up, either leaving or falling into a loop of self-destructive behavior. You have to be very creative to deal with these obstacles. Basically, you have to be someone on the same level as Stuart Jay Raj, a linguistic scholar, teacher, consultant, and technologist, and someone who has blended in inextricably with his environment.

[@kittenastrophy5951]

ต่างด้าว จริงมันเป็นคำไทยโบราณครับ เท่ากับคำว่าต่างชาติในปัจจุบันนี้แค่นั้น ไม่ได้ส่อนัยอะไร แต่ต่อมาสมัยนึงมันกลายเป็นคำในกฎหมาย ภาษากฎหมาย และคนทั่วไปก็มีโอกาสใกล้ชิดคนต่างด้าวมากขึ้นในรูปแบบผู้ใช้แรงงานข้ามชาติซึ่งต้องไปสัมพันธ์เรื่องกฎมายในแง่การจ้างานคนเหล่านั้น คำว่า ต่างด้าวเลยกลายเป็น associated with those migrant laborers implicitly and in the public perception. Personally, this word still be a neutral meaning. I don't use in such an insulting way.

[@RovexHD]

One word - laziness

[@charleshallam3216]

" the colour of your skin, your salary" So, there's no coloured expats?

[@StuartJayRaj]

In the Thai psyche, there is a general subconscious ranking of skin colour to expected salary. They're not hard and fast rules, but it is a harsh reality.

[@RobertHeslop]

At the height of protests last year, my Thai TAs kept on asking me nearly every week what my stance on the King/Royal Family was, what I think of the Government, what I think of the protestors, things like "คุณชอบม็อบมั้ย" or " พระราม10รักทุกคนไทยจริงหรือเปล่า" and I just every time kindly said ไม่มีความเห็นครับ

[@StuartJayRaj]

that's a very wise way to handle it

[@craigross341]

In 2014 I was twice asked my view events, and very obviously - from the reaction - gave the right answer in my pidgin Thai. "I believe it is not a farang's business"!

[@philip32276]

More so, if you speak Asian languages with fluency you will sometimes interact with people who would not dare to say what they are telling you to their own countrymen. This happened in Taiwan years ago during Chiang Kai-shek, where a busboy asked me to inform the US president that Taiwanese want the Chinese out, in Tianjin, China where I met a Uighur who probably would still be in jail now if the authorities find out what he had said to me, and in Thailand where my taxi driver would probably have gotten 15 years for what he said about the king.

[@チョンブリーラームトルテ]

Oh yeah. One guy who works downstairs from me lived in Thailand for five years and could only ask for a beer in Thai. Instantly lost respect for him and interest in him after hearning that.

[@legatrix]

It's extremely satisfying to be able to point out the inadequacies in the business and business culture of the SE Asian country in which I live to fellow employees, in their own language. Might be shooting self in foot but don't care that much.

[@sbibbity_bobbity_bup]

when they expect that theres going to be an interpretor everywhere you go 🙄🙄🙄

[@vade248721]

Did you say $40k-$50k-USA, per year, for private schools?

[@StuartJayRaj]

Yes. Take Bangkok patana school for example if you had a kid going into year 10. If usd, $150 application fee, then $8000 up front registration fee per kid, then around $30,000 for base school fees not including anything else yet..uniforms, auxiliary courses etc which every kid does. We have friends paying up to $3000 per month for 2 kids in extra costs like singing/ gymnastics etc...and not including uniform. It's not cheap.

[@vade248721]

@@StuartJayRaj I teach at a government school so my universe is completely different from what its like at a private school. I cannot imagine what quality of education one would expect from an institution that charges that much.

[@StuartJayRaj]

It eats my soul contemplating paying that much for my daughter (now 16month old) in the future - when actually i could write a syllabus covering all I could ever want to teach her. Imagine paying those fees now during Covid only to have them learn online...parents still having to stay home and guide the kids learning with no reduction in fees.

[@vade248721]

@@StuartJayRaj Is there any real benefit sending them to a private school?

[@StuartJayRaj]

Yes. Fully native English and networks

[@packageism]

Glad I found your channel. We have a successful medical business in Thailand and I have to rely on one of my workers for translations. My thai wife reads some of her messages and tells me to be careful. The language she uses is not polite etc. I obviously had no idea. I had lessons for 1 year but it is a hard language to master

[@Brian-bd1df]

Excellent..very good points

[@mpforeverunlimited]

From poor country-expat From rich country- immigrant

[@ThomasNotJefferson]

Thailand isnt poor at all, they are more advanced in social skills then western countries.

[@danielsantos273]

you

[@andrewryan7583]

Heavy story

[@StuartJayRaj]

yes... sadly it's not an isolated story

[@georgealbert6715]

I think you might be missing a whole other angle. How nice is it to go to a restaurant and not know what people are saying and deal with the judgements one may have which are triggered in their native language ---How nice is it not to have to listen to gossip--which is most likely the same almost everywhere. How nice is it to just look at peoples body language and smile rather than having to go through the jumble and jangle of words to get a better understanding of who they really are..... If you are a meditator how nice is it to go o a silent retreat with people all around you.

[@limonade2684]

When I translate English pop songs I am almost always disappointed, how shallow they are. Now I don't listen to the lyrics, only to the music.

[@philip32276]

อวิชชาเป็นสุข

[@bennettbullock9690]

As for the distinction between expats and immigrants, no distinction should be made. The stereotype is that expats have money and immigrants don't, but that makes no sense to me. In China one of my best friends was an East European who studied and mastered Chinese, but in early days spent a few weeks homeless and mooching food. For a time living in Brazil I was broke, and it was pretty scary, but then a few years later I became quite comfortable financially. To your host society, you're a foreigner, a gringo, a laowai, a gwailou, a khawaga, a gaijin, a wai-gook-saram, a sahib, a farang. You will be lucky and unlucky, depending on how fortune turns. Embrace it and learn from it.