Expensive Cards Not Worth Their Price | Commander Clash Podcast 115

[@Ranis555]

I've been listening to this podcast for a little over a year and I'm finally convinced that Richard is just a huge troll in disguise.

[@Arufonsa1]

I would pay money for one of them to just call him on it. Just tell him he is a flat earther to his face on the podcast.

[@captaindaddd6055]

I know this is a joke but like I have never seen takes that are so seemingly trollish like his are. If he comes out one day and says he trolls, I don't think I'll be surprised. His takes are so out of touch and terrible

[@Sup4ast4r]

His rift take was so bad it hurt my soul.

[@juliusmarty9842]

it's so funny how his argument about Damnation is that "his philosophy is to answer the entire board" 58:14, and yet think that Cyclonic rift is bad. That does not make any sense sir. what?

[@PulledPurk]

@@Arufonsa1 I hsaw the beard guy ask him once like "Really? when do you use it? really?" and the other guy is like "well I never draw it" cop out

[@crss29]

Richard, bless his heart, is a good moderator, and then he goes full flatearther.

[@vahnthemannraseru1810]

No one accepts proxies

[@davbry2011]

@@vahnthemannraseru1810 I do.

[@PaulSzkibik]

@@vahnthemannraseru1810 not in your area maybe.

[@WarbossMorgorTeefsmasha]

"cyclonic rift is bad cus bad players use it wrong" wild take

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@vahnthemannraseru1810 everyone is fine with proxies and anyone who isnt also isnt really worth playing with.

[@the_names_rob]

Cyclonic Rift also gets rid of tokens so its not a complete redeploy

[@PaulSzkibik]

On the other hand, all ETB-effects trigger again and ETB is on so much stuff. Still not convinced that it's actively BAD.

[@juliusmarty9842]

@@PaulSzkibik you can of course argue that, like any other magic card that deals with stuff on the board, the timing of when you would use the spell is what's crucial. These cards are good because if the player uses it right, it either will have an extremely huge impact on the board or it would win them the game.

[@pretends2know]

The funny thing for me is that Richard's core argument for why Cyclonic Rift is overrated amounts to "People don't know how to use this card optimally."

[@baconsir1159]

Gotta disagree with Crim here 100% on Esper Sentinel. Even with 0 synergy, it’s 1 mana draw 2-3 minimum that they have to remove AND it taxes them. It’s probably one of the most efficient cards in the whole format, and an auto-include in every deck with white. It could be double that price and I’d at least understand.

[@QuidBeliever]

I think the esper sentinel take was almost as hot as the cyc rift one

[@lucasbreton4143]

Esper Sentinel and Force of negation are not expensive because of commander tho, it's cause of modern

[@manwithabasicprofilepic]

So do all of the cheaper blue reset board wipes

[@hanschristopherson8056]

I swear Richard is trying to trigger us with these absurd hot takes

[@petrseghman4283]

I am just starting the video, but even now I think I'm gonna agree with Richard. Will come back to report. :D

[@bribri234]

Richard usually has the worst takes lol

[@GOCPproductions]

I think he’s just kinda stupid

[@Metroid23456]

I watch the podcast for the spicy Richard hot takes.

[@Chpow01]

I am thinking Richard is dumb as a box of rocks.... And annoying... StP, Path to exile, cyclonic rift, and half a dozen other cards he thinks are terrible.. yet relies on other people to play because he can't solve any of the problems on the board.

[@networkzanimex]

Sylvan Library still has a place in green-based creature decks because, ironically, it doesn't depend on creatures. If all of your card draw spells need you to have a board (whether they be drawing cards based on number of creatures, power/toughness, attacking, etc), then your card advantage suite has the glaring weakness of being absolutley useless after a sweeper. I think that the lionshare of card advantage being creature-centric is fine. But, not diversifying can come to bite you.

[@overtstayred]

Zaxara uses both sides of doubling season VIGOROUSLY

[@PalPlays]

Doesn't...one of the tokens just die?

[@jameshogan4679]

My treasure golgari golem deck with Ich tek squeezea every drop out of doubling season and primal vigor lol

[@collinbeal]

​@@PalPlaysno, because the counters are part of the same ability. Same reason copying an X spell works. In order for it not to work, you have to have a creature enter as a copy of the hydra token rather than being subject to a doubling replacement effect

[@jjvh500]

Plenty of decks make such guys use of it!! Magus Lucea Kane loves it in the same way as Zaxara. But I've also got a Myrkul Fungus/Saproling deck and an Atraxa Incubate deck. Both are trying to use tokens and counters in huge numbers. I've even got a Greta, Sweettooth Scourge, deck that loves having ridiculous amounts of food. I don't have much in the +1/+1 counter camp in that deck, but between Greta and Mazlrek, Kraul Death Priest, I have enough +1/+1 counters that I would love the Doubling Season in there!

[@mark5617]

I mean, Gyrus can use both sides of it and can get it back super easily if it's milled. Now the question is, should you, as I've been running Gyrus, since it released without it and never felt the need to jam it right in there over the other 98 proves a deck can get value from it but now we have reached the ceiling of if its needed and its not. Very specifically talking about a commander who uses both sides.

[@YellowEyedPuggle]

Seth to me always has the most rational justifications on cards.

[@marcosperez1283]

"I wanna draw cards " Seth pretty much every 2 words (Btw I wanna draw cards too )

[@zapzap7360]

On doubling season, I feel like counters and tokens often go pretty well together. Think Ghave. I run a monogreen tyranids/hydras deck with Old One Eye at the helm. The deck is mainly counters, with a few token cards sprinkled in (33 vs 7), but one of those is my commander. So I'm always at least getting an extra 5/5 for a card that is good enough in my deck on it's own. It won't be a hit in every deck, but it will in enough to be noteworthy

[@bryanleblanc5648]

Due to the recent reprint in WOE, Primal Vigor (which does everything that Doubling Season does unless you care about counters that are NOT +1 counters) is $5. So, unless you are in some strange counter deck like Brokers Precon/Sparra or Arwen or a superfriend deck, you should just buy and play Primal Vigor and not Doubling Season

[@retrofuturistJL]

Doubling season doesn't double your opponents counters and tokens, so it SHOULD only be 5.@@bryanleblanc5648

[@VexylObby]

Sometimes. I think sticking it into a deck that has 2 cards that do the other thing that DS does, is just not worth it. You might as well spend half of the money for a cheaper CMC card that does the exact effect you are looking for.

[@RandomHobo]

Gimbal from the March of the Machine decks also comes to mind for Doubling season. He allows you to get immediate benefit from playing it on turn 5/6 while he's out because you get 2 8/8s instead of 1 4/4 which gets out of hand really quickly. Plus there's some cards in the precon that deal with counters, specifically sandsteppe war riders which bolsters based on the amount of differently named artifact tokens.

[@Kryptnyt]

I think Sylvan Library is still a powerhouse. Cards that make more opening hands keepable are awesome. Sylvan does a better job at ensuring you hit those land drops than just about any other card in the game in the 2cmc range. Cards like Search for Ascanta and the rare 2 cmc draw 2 spell like Night's Whisper and Expressive Iteration are excellent cards that do a poor imitation.

[@cylascrannell5917]

Sylvan Library does more for you as your game knowledge goes up. Being able to manipulate the top card of your library and draw extra cards in very strong for 2 mana in green. It works with the 1 mana dorks on curve and can really turn the tide of a losing game using fetchlands and green land tutors. Forget green even, there are very few cards in the game that can let you see as many cards as sylvan library does. The card is great.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

stop playing too few lands and just use good draw instead

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@cylascrannell5917 how you giving your green dorks haste on turn 1?

[@mrpandabites]

I only have Cyclonic Rift in two decks, but every time I have played it, it was into someone's alpha strike and I won the game the next turn.

[@certanmike]

Do you just not spend your mana?

[@Dynme]

@@certanmike When I see a scary board state that could kill me and I have Cyc Rift in hand? No. Last time I played it, I expected the Krenko player to my right to combo off next turn, but the Arcades player across from me gave me a huge gift with a wheel spell. Get rid of everyone's fast mana plus disrupt the goblins? Yes, please!

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@Dynme as much of a meme as it as at this point a litteral fog is 1 mana for the exact same job if you win on the backswing

[@Dynme]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 True, but I was nowhere near a winning position for the deck I was playing. Used Rift to reset the board and bought time to turtle. Eventually won, but it was several turns later.

[@flexoffender8159]

Also that cyclonic rift take was so horrible it caused me physical pain, i Couldn't imagine thinking cyclonic rift was bad.

[@singularleaf3895]

Cyc Rift is a bad board wipe and its doesnt win games its more often a win more card. The only thing that makes it worth it is that its a Blue card were all of the other board wipes are somehow worse.

[@25_Cats_in_a_Trenchcoat]

​@@singularleaf3895I really like fade away in blue decks

[@faerie7dragon]

I wish Richard stopped trolling.

[@satansamael666]

⁠@@singularleaf3895it’s so much more than a win more card, it’s a supercharged Silence with an option to single spot removal some hate piece. It’s absolutely amazing it’s what it is.

[@Metroid23456]

@@singularleaf3895 99 times out of a hundred Cyclonic Rift just prolongs the game rather than winning it. Ideally someone casts it, untaps, and wins that turn, but in practice I've maybe seen this happen like once. I'd rather just play white and actually wrath the board.

[@discoviolenza1984]

Mtg Goldfish should do a draft next season like they did on Game Nights where everyone gets to draft six of each card type that they get to use the next season and the other players can't use chosen picks.

[@andrewwiebe1384]

they should do an actual draft of the vintage cube draft by sandydog

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

Didn’t see that episode. What do you mean exactly? Six cards per card type? Or just one each for the six main nonland types? And for the whole season? So one of them could call dibs on Rhystic, Crypt, Craterhoof, Guardianship, Demonic, and Ugin and just win a disproportionate number of games? There are a lot of ways to interpret this lol.

[@discoviolenza1984]

I was wrong it was a command zone episode, that will effect an up coming game knights episode. In episode each person drafted six equipment cards and the idea was these are the six equipment pieces you can play in your decks and the other players can't use them. I was thinking that the Clash players should do something like that for an upcoming season maybe chosing from six of each card type (6 sorceries, 6 equipment 6 creatures, 6 enchantments ect....). excluding viewer submitted weeks or Cedh weeeks

[@Michael-yx1wi]

@@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai Do you understand how a draft works?

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

@@discoviolenza1984 That sounds like a lot of cards to make unavailable for each other for a whole season. Maybe just one card each?

[@ADVBCAT]

The strongest argument against Jeweled Lotus is the "it will get killed" one IMO. Getting a 4-mana commander out on turn 1, or 5-mana one on turn 2, is so strong, and people will be so salty, that they will 100% run out that removal and be right to do so. And then you're down a card, the hand you kept on the basis of assuming the lotus play would work is probably crap now, and your commander costs 2 more. You're honestly probably just out of the game at that point.

[@oafkad]

To answer the question about rad Black Wraths. Black Sun's Zenith. It becomes more and more common the longer the game goes on. I love it.

[@icmike0]

Also seeing a decent amount of the two exile board wipes, nightmare unmaking/extinction event, that can be one-sided either odd/even cmc or higher/lower power than hand size

[@zapsdiputs]

Sylvan doesn't just guarantee draw, it's also like a free brain storm every upkeep...

[@xdelbarrio]

not really since its only the cards you draw that turn, its like a worse scry since you cant send the cards you dont want to the bottom, but as seth said with shuffling it become way better as you can see 3 new cards every turn

[@Hyxtrem]

@@xdelbarrio This is why you play Fetchlands buddy. Ok it's not lvl 6 or 7 Decks. But draw 3 or Brainstorm then fetch. It's an awesome draw engine for only 2 mana. It ends game way more than expected. It's a huge card. it's worth it's price, especially since it's last reprint.

[@craigstuckey319]

Yeah. Saying Sylvan Library is anything less than a fantastic card is asinine. I will say, people often forget about Mirri's Guile.

[@w.s6124]

@@xdelbarrio Fetch lands? other shuffle effects. Fair its not a brainstorm but still quite powerful.

[@ComfyDents]

Honestly I think Treasure Map is better than Sylvan Library. It can bottom scry without any help, smothes the early turns out and then flipped it is both card draw or ramp. Land ramp! It also has many random synergies. Have a random Treasure token? Draw a card. Have no treasure but a bounce land? Better than to continue top deck mode. Sylvan can draw two next turn. Sure but than everybody will attack you to stop wanting to pay anymore. I would rather play a random Harmonise. I saw Sylvan in a Trostani deck once. They made so much life and paid each turn and won the arch enemy. There it is good. But in a random deck? Nah. Especially not for that price.

[@brainpower45]

I love how the crew is like "Timeless Lotus? Yeah, that's worth $12, there's nothing else equivalent out there for that slot" while Prismatic Geoscope is over here like "Am I a joke to you?" In a 5 color deck they're THE SAME CARD except geoscope let's you make any combination of mana and only costs $.83

[@shadowfox513]

I agree with you, had that card in my jodah deck. That being said, neither card is very good but for 1 dollar, I suppose the geoscope might be worth? It's just limited to four or five mana decks so not very versatile

[@bennettwadekamper8238]

Having all 5 basics is not guaranteed. I think the 5 mana rock let's you for sure cast your commander if you get mana screwed.

[@shadowfox513]

you don't need all 5 basics, just the types. Between triomes and shocks, you can have full domain by turn two, and even in a basic heavy budget build, with all of the green land fetchers, you'll be pretty close, if not at full domain by the time geoscope comes down

[@brainpower45]

@bennettwadekamper8238 are you really not playing fetch/shock/triome mana bases in your 5 color decks where you spend over $10 on mana rocks? Don't get me wrong, I don't especially like either card, because a 5 mana tapped mana rock is pretty sketchy, but I'd rather have one that can at least make any combination of colors.

[@bennettwadekamper8238]

@@brainpower45 Im not used to playing with actual good mana bases. I wouldn't spend $10 for a mana rock.

[@poipoi9816]

it's kind of wild that ancient copper is 2.5x as expensive as the next dragon in that cycle

[@mathewdebol923]

Cheaper to cast and that kind of mana boost is crazy

[@herpderp66]

Red dragon orb gives haste. Many ways to give haste in red. All of the Ancient dragons are terrible without haste.

[@conker1847]

Dragon decks want mana, he is the cheapest, he is the right dragon color, red has the most haste enabling. White/Blue aren't getting that much mana that fast, Green has better ways to get counters on things and black has many cheaper resurrection cards.

[@isidoreaerys8745]

@@herpderp66gnawbone Doesn’t even need haste. He gives the effect to all of your creatures and you literally get as many treasures as you can inflict damage every time. Copper is trash. I’m lucky when I roll anything over a 4 with that cursed gamepiece.

[@Kopekemaster]

The only deck I've had Doubling Season in is my Slimefoot deck, where it REALLY wants both sides - it's a Thallid deck, so doubling the number of spore counters you get is really big for the deck. It effectively quadruples your saproling generation. Edit - just saying to give another example of a deck that uses both sides. I think that it's very likely that Doubling Season is very overplayed and isn't worth it for many decks.

[@ian_lambert-knight]

I run it in Ghave and it is pretty good there

[@jamesoakley9333]

​@@ian_lambert-knightsame. Been piloting the Guru since commander went official as nd I started with the precon.

[@Willsr14]

Commander Clash Podcast drinking game: Take a shot every time Richard starts his sentence with 'like..' and ends it with 'right?'

[@Alkhemia8]

do you want us to die?

[@pablowarcraft]

It's like this dude wants to kill us all, right?

[@Schwenne1994]

I actually can't believe they didn't have Mana Crypt on the list. That card is worth way to much money to ever be worth it outside of cedh

[@craigstuckey319]

I mean, it's a free 2 mana. If Sol Ring wasn't reprinted every 15 seconds it too would be a $100 card. And for the people complaining it should be banned, you think you're getting crushed by Mana Crypt and Mana Vault now.....

[@9forMortalMen]

Mana crypt is straight up busted. Even in casual, it’s straight up busted.

[@scottricks1676]

Actually thought that was gonna be 1st on the list! Def not worth its price tag for most commander players. I have one I Needa just sell. Never gets added to a deck.

[@w.s6124]

Its complete insanety even in casual. Maybe best card in the format together with dockside and some others but thats a diffrent discussion. Im not saying its worth 180 but it def is absurdly strong.

[@markusaurelius83]

This card is absurdly expensive, but it substantially increases your winrate.. just like Sol Ring does. Your 2 -3 Turns faster. :/

[@Spaced92]

I had no opinion about it beforehand but all the arguments against Damnation were about different cards that cost twice as much and do different things, Richard and Tomer helped make the case for Damnation IMO. Even busted, three times as expensive cards like the meathook massacre, people are too distracted by the upside and not the cost. 4 mana wrath is still good.

[@25_Cats_in_a_Trenchcoat]

Right. It's the most efficient for 4 mana and now you can beseech it mmm

[@luketfer]

Yup Damnation is around $10, Toxic Deluge is around $8ish...Meathook Massacre is at least over double what Damnation costs...all the other board wipes that were mentioned are janky, expensive in terms of mana cost or highly situational. As pointed out by Seth...there are VERY limited complete boardwipes in Monoblack that are cost effective since you've got, at best, 3, one of which is highly expensive.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

​@@luketfer meathook is objectively not cost effective. massacre i think is the actual 3rd one, but these dumb dumbs dont play basica so they cant use it i think that was the name at least -1 for each swamp

[@sethchapman1425]

Black Sun Zenith is pretty good, plus gets rid of indestructible.

[@kylegonewild]

Also anything that survives is severely crippled and easier to remove with all the random damage the game has these days.

[@TaskMaster5]

Black Sun is such a great board wipe and is severely underplayed in my area. People never expect it.

[@9807036]

So a fun thing I’ve been doing is in my Phylath, World Sculptor landfall deck uses doubling season as a core piece to a win. I’ve got doubling season with avenger of zendikar and all will be one, make way too many tokens, put an insane number of counters on them, then watch nature eat the table if the burn doesn’t end it all. 27:39

[@Hat153]

I appreciate Richard bringing in some spicy takes here, even if I don't agree with the takes. It's bringing in a new perspective where I've just always thought those cards are objectively good, and helped me reevaluate them which I haven't really done since they were printed.

[@3N3MYKN1GHT]

6:45 mana confluence, city of brass, orchards, command tower, gemstone, ancient tomb, 2 channel lands, fetches, and og duals and like 1 or 2 flex slots for cavern/another mana accelerator land is a 5 color cedh deck 28 lands usually skipping a dual (plateu) or two that is under valued mana pip wise. I dont imagine post malone casual would look much different other than a basic of each of the main colors so you hit land drops and a possible second typal land, since most decks are 5 colors to utilise a wide variety of creature typals, planeswalkers, or legendaries.

[@matthewdisbrow507]

the idea behind the doubling season is not that you need to use both sides in a single deck. It is that you can also just transplant it into two different decks as well.

[@DaveManHA]

Still the most expensive. Money and mana wise. 1 mana more than anointed, 2 mana more than branching evo and 4 mana more than hardened scales.

[@schadenfreude4846]

I just took psychic damage listening to richard talk about cyc rift

[@andrewkelley6039]

Never loved Cyclonic Rift more than I do now with all these Treasure/Food/Clue synergies everywhere - you aint re-casting your 20 treasure back out. Other than that Richard was spot on with all the other cards

[@Kay_Drechsler]

I really like this podcast. Always makes me happy to hear expert's takes on certain cards. In this episode Tomer is just jumping over Ghave as a commander who's so severely profiting from Doubling season that it just ends games.

[@Spirited_skiing]

I’m usually on board for richard’s hot takes, but boy oh boy his cyc rift take is wild. I wouldn’t spend money on cyc rift, but it’s because it’s too strong and not fun to play against, not too weak

[@nathanw4692]

Same, trying to find other options because its almost too good to be fun.

[@xaropevic7918]

It is really good, but I do think that cyclonic rift is a liiiittle overrated, is arguably among the best board wipes, and for what it does (either being an instant, or being one sided) and is better than every card on that and is by far the board wipe that is the most saltyworthy (excluding land board wipes) because it is one sided. But it is in top 14 saltiest card in edhrec in this year, way above than it should be, land board wipe is worse, rhistic study and smothering tithe is worse, free counterspells are worse, hokori dust drinker is worse, a lot of cascade cards are worse, jin gitaxias core augur is worse, mono U urza is worse, atraxa grand unifier is worse, rising waters is worse, so cyclonic rift should be like, top 25ish? Also definitely overpriced, should've been like 15-20 dollars at least?

[@bennettstokes195]

Rift is really really really strong, especially if your running decent interaction, or looping it. On mtgo I used to play it in my morph deck but it was way too strong.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

Ghave and Doubling Season literally go hand in hand.

[@Rurrikk]

This was the commander I have that came to mind. Also magus luca cane.

[@gabriel342]

Ghave, Doubling Season and Ashnod's Alter Combo :)

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

This was one of my first 3 commander decks. At the time Doubling season was ~$30 so it was worth for me.

[@ChadZeluff]

I think Doubling Season at $40 is worth, and at $80 it was not.

[@singularleaf3895]

$80 is usually worth it imo if its gonna be the card a lot of my decks, or its a linchpin in my primarily decks. Zaxara is one of if not my favorite deck to use and Doubling season i would say it absolutely worth it for me to buy it at $80 but i drew 4 or 5 out of packs years ago so i didnt need to. And i just proxy if i need more

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

I honestly think it’s too slow in a lot of metas to be worth playing anymore. Except in superfriends, I agree with everyone on that. In token decks, 5 mana to cast, doesn’t do anything right away, has to make it around the table with a target on it once to benefit from it, then you make a bunch of tokens and have to wait another turn cycle to use those. In +1 counter decks there are just faster, more efficient, and more budget alternatives all over the place. A good +1 counter deck can frequently win before Season can really pay out.

[@supertrouperJC02]

Doubling season is also WAY more flexible in your collection, not just for a single deck. If you build superfriends, doubling season, if you build +1/+1 counters, doubling season, if you build tokens, doubling season, even if you get experience counters, doubling season. Literally half my green decks could justify it, even though I only have 1 copy and play it in 1 deck.

[@sonchezz]

I own all of the older cards on this list. As someone who bought all these cards long before they became so pricey, I've just always played with these cards, and if a deck would want one of these, it feels unfinished to me without these. Recently though I've actually replaced all of them with proxies. I haven't sold them, but I either leave them at home or in a case near my decks and use the proxies as true proxy. I'm just getting to the point I'd rather not walk around with thousands in my commander bag, and I personally have no issue with other players playing them without owning them, so what better way. Doubling Season does all types of counters, most other counter-adding cards outside of proliferate only do +1/+1 counters. Which gives it a 3rd home in some janky non +1/+1 counter decks as well. In my personal play experience March of Swirling mists has performed better than Cyclonic Rift. Although they are not the same cards at all, they can react to very similar situations by temporarily dealing with a problem board (depending on cast time, March actually denies those cards longer) and March is much more versatile. I do tend to still play both as the Rift doesn't target and it's still a strong way to deal with the board, probably my #2 blue card. I would argue that Wheel is very strong if played properly (unfairly) and bad catch-up draw if played inappropriately or at an inopportune time, and IMO every time I have played Wheel of Misfortune it has been a trap card that is not worth playing at all. Thanks for the fun topic.

[@pedroms720]

Richard, a master-mind beyond comprehension of ordinary mages. I love you dude

[@TJMiton]

The argument of "If everyone agrees to play really badly, Esper Sentinetl doesnt draw any cards" is so hilarious to me.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

What Richard is seeing that the others sometimes miss is that even if a card isn't creme de la creme, if it goes in every deck, it's a better investment than a perfect card for one deck.

[@bryanleblanc5648]

He can see how cards are worth more the more decks they fit in... but can he see why Cyclonic Rift is good? (Rifts are for kids, old man!)

[@IzzetTempo]

True! But the whole point of this ep is cards you can find cheaper replacements for and some folk just don't wanna spend $40 on a card. Also I've found that once I've won a game or five off the back of a $40 card, I just don't wanna play it anymore cuz it sorta feels pay to win.

[@singularleaf3895]

Doubling season is a card that goes with basically every one of my green decks. Its worth up to $80.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@IzzetTempo That's not the point of the pod. The point of the pod is cards that aren't worth the cost and the more decks a card goes in the more it's worth.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@@singularleaf3895 you need to build better green decks that card is bad.

[@gbasso666]

Esper Sentinel is the single best white card I've ever bought and it was worth every penny.

[@gragrim]

There is a glaring downside to doubling season.. you spend 5 mana, and (usually) do NOTHING to the board the turn it comes out.. the higher the power level of your game/playgroup is, the WORSE doubling season becomes. "Yes, I'd like to spend 5 mana, put a scary permanent into play that effectively does nothing the turn it comes in, and pass my turn" Is playing doubling season fun? Sure.. is it worth the price? NO

[@RenardAgrume]

I play Sylvan Library in my Atraxa deck and to me just the fact that I can choose which out of 3 cards I get to pick every draw step is insane. Most of the time I don't even pay life (unless I really need to dig for an answer or a land, or if I'm already full of mana and/or life) is it just me that thinks that "at your upkeep look at the top 3 cards and draw one of those" is actually really good (and worth the price)?

[@swiftdragonrider]

There is a 1 coat enchantment that does that

[@RenardAgrume]

@@swiftdragonrider yeah but I bet it's not as flexible as Sylvan Library

[@swiftdragonrider]

@@RenardAgrume Mirri's Guile is the card and it lets you pick which of the top 3 your draw every turn. if you arent drawing you are overpaying by a mana.

[@_Asleep_]

That's actually worth more than sylvan lol

[@Umar0th]

In my Korvold Treasure deck, Doubling Season tends to be more of a priority target than not.

[@burnsboy101]

Parallel lives better and cheaper

[@cowsticker9618]

What an awful deck to play against too!

[@Umar0th]

@@burnsboy101 Parallel lives doesn't make Korvold's and Juri's +1/+1 counters explode like Doubling Season does. Nor does it make Descent into Avernus, Black Market explode.

[@camerongrey3643]

Crim so wrong on esper sentinel. It’s easily a top 5 white card, requires no synergies to be good but has many, and even if people pay the tax (which they don’t) it still taxes their mana. For 1 mana!

[@alanrollf2856]

I've won or swung a game with Cyclonic Rift, more than it's whiffed.

[@jmnaccount]

For mono-black board wipes, Living Death should also be counted! It can potentially reanimate your opponents graveyard, but in any deck that runs I make sure to also run a couple of graveyard hate cards!

[@TheLongIslandDashExperience]

I use Doubling Season in my Glissa Herald of Predation deck who makes 2 incubate tokens which comes out with 2 +1/+1 counters so with doubling season it’s 4 tokens with 4 +1/+1 counters which is nice.

[@dragonmaster47]

Sorry Crim, i watch many commander shows on youtube besides you guys. Most of the time no one pays for esper sentinel, at any point in the game. And it skews the game so hard because no wants to use removal on a 1/1.

[@Level_1_Frog]

23:10 - you forgot about fungus decks! You definitely want Doubling Season specifically because it doubles the amount of saproling tokens you make as well as double the amount of 'spore' counters you generate :)

[@guisseppimelon8224]

Sylvan is definitely worth it at $20, you don’t absolutely need it but it does improve any deck it’s a part of

[@archaonczech6073]

Its powerhouse with fetch lands...

[@w.s6124]

not every deck. Its a bit cluncky in ad nause lists like NBC-Najeela.

[@Benislionheart]

Doubling season is worth the price - so worth it, I bought one as I listened to this show - I didn’t realise it had dived in price. Thanks!

[@Mensch777]

I like that some cards are "money-banned". There are quite a few powerful cards that would just be in every deck if they weren't so expensive so in pods that don't use that many proxies they are just not there which I think is actually nice

[@drpibisback7680]

...Right up until someone in the pod has more money than everyone else, and now it's a problem. Game balance should not be based on outside market forces.

[@michaelcollins4534]

​@noesunyoutuber7680 and then that person realizes the issue and takes the cards out. Rule 0 ya know

[@ToadManJon11]

I think doubling season is worth the price right now because in like a year or two it's probably gonna be a 100 bucks again haha

[@Spaced92]

Idk that gets into investment discussion, I just don't think it's worth what it is right now.

[@choupuppy42]

Other black board wipes on the more expensive side that I like are Nightmare Unmaking, Deadly Tempest, Life's Finale, and even Necromantic Selection

[@felipeguidolin1055]

I have been gotten by Deadly Tempest way too many times

[@ms.sysbit5511]

Dead of Winter is a good one folks sleep on.

[@AWESMATHEGREAT]

I agree with Tomer, Doubling Season is only really good when you're using both halves. Either half has dupes that are more mana efficient and/or are cheaper.

[@w.s6124]

You ever plyaed with or against Doulbling season? Its strong even if only 1 half is used and if you use both (which happens quite consistently in the average casual deck) it becomes just a must-answer threat...

[@obadijahparks]

Damnation is really cool. I'm glad I got four secret lair version with Seb McKinnon's art.

[@-homerow-]

13:02 My Tutors va Budget strategy is to splurge on the tutor target first Even if I want to optimize a deck lands are first, then ramp, card draw, then win cons, then get best option for tutors as a final way to fully optimize

[@-homerow-]

I found myself not playing Green or Black on CEDH just cuz it's too easy and there are too many cookie cutter auto includes in every green and black CEDH deck. Just my opinion

[@electric_dream_machine]

The thought of buying an OG Dual would only cross my mind if they were reprinted. Those lands are hideous and the white border only makes them worse.

[@isaacrobertson4374]

It may seem weird that the overpriced tutor mentioned is cheaper than other ones mentioned but I actually agree 100% with Seth where saving for a demonic tutor or Vampiric Tutor Is worth it, or just go budget, the in between Grim Tutor just doesn’t seem remotely worth its price at all

[@Balue7]

Oldie but a goodie. Primal Vigor came in the Prossh pre built, but immediately got moved to my Marath. Found Doubling Season and it was a slam dunk.

[@WushuTaz]

23:10 Ghave for sure. That's the only one I can think of though since my Ghave Enchantress deck is one of my most favorite decks. It enables 4 combos in my deck. Ghave + Phyrexian Altar + Doubling Season, Ghave + Ashnod's Altar + Doubling Season, Ghave + Cryptic Trilobite + Doubling Season and Ghave + Earthcraft + Doubling Season enabling infinite man, infinite tokens and infinite death triggers that end games with things like Corpse Knight/The Meathook Massacre/Blood Artist or control board states with Grave Pact/Aura Shards.

[@captaindb4998]

I have ALL 10 duals (revised) in my Tiamat deck. I had 7 of them from when i played in high school, bought the other 3 just to have one of each. 😊

[@tannerlawrence4287]

The prices they listed tend to go off of tcg player which has increased prices. I tend to choose eBay because of the variety and their card guarantee. I’ve bought many and I’m very happy with my purchases.

[@matthewmccreight9854]

To the doubling season topic: Ghave, guru of spores... outside of planeswalkers that's really the only commander that comes to mind that breaks more than 1 part of its effects very easily, and at one time

[@mandurrudnam7632]

26:05 while that is true, how often do you put multiple counters at once vs. single counters multiple times.

[@trikovi1628]

I totally agree that Doubling Season is overrated especially in +1/+1 counters decks, cause most of those decks don't place a bunch of counters all at once they place 1 on each of their creatures multiple times. So hardened scales is just doubling season but 4 less mana and there are a bunch of creatures with the hardened scales effect

[@thomhitzelberger7876]

lol i keep my dual lands in the safe. you can enjoy this quality print out of it in my sleeved deck tyvm

[@nycstreetpoet]

Jeweled Lotus take: I have Jeweled Lotus (I opened one) in my Sheoldred, the Apocalypse deck. There’s something wonderful about getting my commander out turn 1, and I’m *already* the archenemy because everyone hates Sheoldred.

[@Killmatronix]

Timeless Lotus is played in some versions of amulet in modern. Probably helps beef up the cost.

[@VowNix]

Doubling season is NOT worth the price. It is to expensive for the ability and only fits in certain decks that take adv of both. I have it in my UG kicker deck, because Verazol actually cares about both 😅

[@GSlimey]

Doubling season with rocco street chef is amazing (totally slept on commander btw)

[@ATADSP]

For the decks I make, the true dual lands would in most cases double or almost double the cost of the deck. My most expensive deck is my Sheoldred deck which is around $500, granted its monocolor, and the only reason it is so much is that I opened a Sheoldred and The One Ring in packs, it wouldn't even exist if that didn't happen because I would never fork out the money for Sheoldred or the One Ring individually. I target $200-500 per deck, so it would literally at least double my multicolor decks. Also Doubling Season needs MORE reprints. Pretty much all of these cards need reprints, ESPECIALLY the dual lands. The reserve list should be burned.

[@pokedadsam9041]

1:19:26 kind of, but if you play a sol ring and are dropping timeless lotus t3-t4, you have less lands on the board for miraris wake.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

Doubling Season is the best card in a very few decks (Ghave, Slimefoot, Super Friends). So it’s situationally worth it. Esper Sentinel is good, but it’s a ~$10 card, not a ~$30 card. Richard is just wrong about cyclonic rift and always has been. Maybe he’ll see the light someday. Just because people misuse it that doesn’t make it a bad card. I run Force of Negation in one deck because I happen to own it. But would never spend the money on it. I like sylvan library cause it’s fun and play it in one of my decks cause I own it, but I wouldn’t go out of my way to buy it at this point. Wheel effects are great in Purphuros, Bronze Blooded as you are dumping your hand on the board and need hand refills that impulse doesn’t do. But yeah. Not good in general.

[@Eital2]

For Doubling Season, I'd like to use it for Ayula, since she uses both halves. Her own effect will get more 1/1 counters. Bearscape and Ayula's Influence will both benefit from the second half. Esper Sentinel is a card that I'm keen to pick up for my Zabaz Modular deck. If the day ever comes where both are $10-15 then I'll probably pick them up.

[@wowomah6194]

Honestly, if you're playing a two color deck or even a tri color deck, there's A LOT of dual lands that you can use and they work PERFECTLY with their play requirements like "you need an island or plains in play" or "you need two basic lands in play" or "you need two or more opponents" and so on. Nimbus Maze, Hengegate Pathway, Sea of Clouds, Prairie Stream, Skycloud Expanse, Glacial Fortress, Fortified Beachhead, Abandoned Beach (or whatever it's called) and so on (depending on which colors you're playing in of course the names change) will get you totally where you need to be plus the usual Command Tower, Reflecting Pool,

[@josephpayton7522]

Hey goldfish crew, an idea I would love to see for an episode of the podcast is a draft like the one on game nights but the pool is the top 20 most played cards from the previous season. Each player for the next season can only play the five of the 20 they drafted for the next season. This accomplishes a big goal you have stated in the past. It avoids the same cards showing up over and over across a season. It helps you not have to make bans like cyclonic rift because it kept popping up over and over.

[@thatepicwizardguy]

I'd say just about any card is not worth $20+ if you're looking to get it so you can play casually. If you're looking to collect or play competitively then the value of any card can change wildly... I bought a damnation at I think $17~ and thought it was overpriced but it's also just my favorite card? so idk lol definitely depends But yeah casual commander people should almost never be spending that kind of money unless you're really happy with dumping money into the hobby to enhance whatever fun you're having. Some people love blinged decks or really love certain cards or really want specific combos or whatever and don't wanna run proxies. /Shrug but I'd say reasonably speaking $20+ is really too much across the board for a general baseline of fun commander games (Tomer has shown you can make decks wayyyyyyyyy cheap that are pretty awesome) EDIT: btw you can buy damnation for $15 and under now if you're lookin carefully. (at the time of me posting this there's multiple listings on TCGplayer 15 and under

[@imaginarymatter]

I think in quite a few token decks Doubling Season is win more. For example, Rhys for 6 mana can double your tokens and Ghave has plenty of Commander based comboes that don't need the additional tokens. Commander now has so many efficient token producers and Commander who can chain into more tokens that you ever need that you're often times better off with another card that isn't a 5 cmc do nothing enchant. The strength of Doubling Season I think is decks that can utilize both halves or Enchantment decks like Callix or Anikthea that can turn Doubling Season into a token and turn it into Exponential-ling Season.

[@Artaimus]

This is why my playgroup only uses proxies these days. Entire decks costs about 20US$. Just like Garfield intended.

[@TeaHauss]

Great Henge does not need to be over $25, ever

[@odditiescollector4540]

i'm surprised tomer didnt mention nightmare unmaking for a mono black wrath as its very budget and it exiles so it gets around indestructible

[@troublemack9876]

Nightmare unmaking is not it

[@odditiescollector4540]

@@troublemack9876 can you elaborate on what you you mean by it's not it?

[@TheSpunYarn]

My Gruul landfall deck makes incredible use of Sylvan Library. I think that dropping it turn 2 propells me so far ahead with my exploration effects and my Oracle of Mul Daya effects that on turn 6 or so Im so favored to win its nasty. It definitely still has its place in the format.

[@matthewlaborde1080]

Doubling season is SICK in Ghave.

[@mjkuhnke]

Just today I was looking for a "just counters' half of doubling season for green/white. Tons of stuff for +1/+1 counters specifically but for what i wanted it was like... lae'zel, pir, and vorinclex as the only alternatives. To be fair voinclex is a pretty nice body to have on the field and his negative counters on opponents can be really incredible sometimes. Now I'm just really stuck between choosing him or doubling...

[@highlander7462]

Black also has Mandate of Abaddon, Massacre Girl and Last One Standing in rakdos

[@MakeVarahHappen]

Rift is not worth the price. It's broken, unfair and dumb. It's still amazing. I think a lot of people don't run it right but it doesn't need to be "win the game." People can't redeploy all the cards in the same turn before discarding. They either lose mana or lose threats. And a two mana bounce that is often an expensive wrath is good.

[@another505]

Imperial seal is good for decks that cares about cards at the top of the deck more than the hand. Jodah the unifier for example. Is it worth it? Ehhh

[@drpibisback7680]

Certainly not when Vampiric Tutor is better and costs half as much.

[@gibbysg8143]

As someone who doesn’t like cyclonic rift since it’s OP, if you’re in mono blue or heavy blue two color spectral deluge is definitely the best cyclonic rift replacement that feels way more fair since it’s sorcery speed

[@AxillaryPower2]

I'm with Tomer on Doubling Season. For 40+ dollars, I want that card to be the best card in my deck, and I think Doubling Season is only that if you're a super friends deck.

[@Jigsawtwig]

I agree with Crim on Esper Sentinel. I run one in humans and it's good but it's not THAT strong. Commander Clash is super biased because they don't pay. If Sentinel is one power it doesn't do much.

[@BobardeZanzibar]

Every card Crim compares esper sentinel to costs three times the mana. That says something about the card.

[@peterkirk8510]

Something not touched on about the duals - in 3-4c decks, it’s common enough that you’ll want 2 untapped fetchable lands that are the same colors untapped. If you play any particular deck enough you’ll know which 2 colors . Triomes are nice, but frequently not good enough.

[@flexoffender8159]

I think doubling season is absolutely worth it. What the people against it in the video seemed to miss is that you don't need one deck that takes advantage of both sides. It's the kind of card where any player will probably build a dozen or more decks that it would be good in. A lot of players I know don't have the money to have dozens of fully assembled decks with their own unique copies of each card, they have a small handfull of decks that share staples and they keep their decklists on tappedout and take the expensive cards out of their decks and reuse them throughout multiple decks. So with doubling season you have a card you can put in sooooo many decks and it feels amazing. Superfriends, tokens, +1+1 counters, any deck where your commander is a planeswalker, and this one card is a bomb in all of them.

[@jolteon345]

When it comes to Seth’s Grim Tutor point, I fully agree. I’m not gonna go out and buy one, I’ll replace it with something like Phyrexian Arena or Underworld Connections if I’m not getting another tutor. It’s in that awkward price range where I’m either putting in good tutors or spending the money somewhere more impactful.

[@thatguycam1989]

Dual lands make sense for cedh decks. Any advantage you can get, the better off you are. Say you need an untapped land type, but you only have a fetch land that gets a different color? What do you do if you already have your shockland out with that color combination?

[@andrueurbane7361]

Another argument in favor of Doubling Season is if you are using treasures as a significant component of your ramp strategy. It also does double duty in a deck designed around making token copies of permanents that create their own token copies. I have Gruul artifact deck designed around making copies of stuff like Wurmcoil Engine, Phyrexian Triniform, and modular creatures. It can really come out of nowhere and has solid yard recursion to rebuild if needed.

[@jeremiahchamberlain4179]

Doubling season should only be in decks with counters and tokens, or super friends in those places it is super worth 40 bucks

[@epothos1]

Doubling season just wins me games I play it the same turn as teferi, ugin, or tamiyo and just win

[@cataphasia1234]

1:05:14 if Sylvan Library was an instant would you play it?