F-22 Goes from Retirement to Upgrade Priority?

Mover and Gonky discuss recent news that the F-22 may be an upgrade priority now after facing retirements. www.forbes.com... Join the channel to watch LIVE every Monday at 8PM ET or to see full episodes of The Mover and Gonky Show. You can also join in on LIVE Q&As with the Mover Mailbag: / @cwlemoine Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot, author, cop, and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, author, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between.
Send your voice message for the show: podcasters.spo...
Looking for a good book? www.cwlemoine.com
The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.
Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.

[@Raist474]

F-22 undergoing an aging crisis: B-52: Mark my words, boy, and mark them well. I have survived your predecessors, and I will survive you.

[@bddgfx]

F35: i kNoW kUnG-fU !

[@mcahill135]

Ditto for the KC-135.

[@BigWiggerNoobTube]

More like: NUH UHHHHHHHHH

[@VzZzZz627]

C130 enters the room

[@user-ho1yn6ms7y]

Love the Matrix reference!

[@cruisinguy6024]

We never should have cut production so early. To add insult to injury we never should have tossed all the tooling for the F-22 so production could have been restarted if needed.

[@MrTakin00]

Welcome to lobbying and the military industrial complex.

[@apolloaero]

It was to prevent our enemies from getting their hands on it and reverse-engineer. Cutting production short was short-sighted. All thanks to Robert Gates

[@pistonburner6448]

In reality production can still be restarted. Easily. Anyone saying it's impossible is lying. Anyone saying it's not cost-effective to simply restart producing a tried and tested aircraft or better yet an updated version of it is lying.

[@terryhiggins5077]

Never underestimate the ability of politicians and their Corpo paymasters to screw things up.

[@therocinante3443]

Indeed. I don't think congress is allowed to make any decision that is beneficial to the American people

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

The realities of physics don't change, so it's not a surprise to me that we're not developing new fighters rapidly anymore. We've known a LOT about radar and aerodynamics for over 50 years. The biggest advances are going to be with sensors, engines, and weapons that the aircraft use, not the airframes themselves.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

This right here. Granted, we’ve likely made huge material science and computer design leaps in the past 40 years, but in simple aerodynamics we hit a wall about the time the Raptor was in development. All we can do now is as you say, and also optimize for the mission. The F-22 was a fur ball monster, but made sacrifices in BVR capability, you just don’t see it because it’s was head and shoulders above the competition, but today we’re starting to see that BVR edge chipped away. NGAD fixes that. Its airframe is likely optimized for high speed and high endurance, ensuring BVR dominance as the cost of dogfighting prowess.

[@dwwolf4636]

@@jacobbaumgardner3406 NGAD is likely a F111 sized tailless design.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

@@dwwolf4636 I agree with that. It will likely be capable of very high speeds and altitudes, and will carry a lot of fuel. F-111 but possibly nearing the size of the B-58, which is slightly larger.

[@Caseytify]

Let us examine the history of microcomputers. Moore's Law held for a long time, to the point where the Pentium IV was a power sink and produced so much heat serious consideration was given to liquid cooling for later systems. CPUs were stuck at 1Gz for a while, then development slowed down around the 3Gz mark. The common wisdom was that 5Gz liquid CPUs were the future. Instead both Intel & AMD went with lower-power, multi-core designs instead. A single core might be only 2.8Gz, but when 8 cores are available with 6MB of L3 cache, you get a powerful, less expensive system. Similarly, for decades the mantra for fighter designers was "more speed." After WW2 we saw Mach 1 capable machines, then Mach 2. Then a funny thing happened. High speed SAMs rendered all of those state of the art Mach 3 designs obsolete. B-70, gone. Ditto for advanced X plane fighter designs. Instead designers went for maneuverability, then later stealth. Alas, stealth is complex, expensive, and transient. Note that the venerable B-52 is used more than the B-2, and probably will outlast it. We don't need gold-plated super planes; we need smart weapons. A B-52 controlling Loyal Wingman drones and smart bombs could prove a deadly opponent.

[@toddie4usa1]

New are being rapidly developed ...nuff said

[@erikallder8199]

The biggest reason for the push to retire certain aircraft ahead of their time is probably to create a sense of urgency from the lack of a replacement so that new multi-billion-dollar projects can get approved in Congress and whatever four-stars are making these decisions can thus secure their post-retirement seven-figure VP jobs at whatever defense contractors get the contract(s) to build said replacement.

[@troys3757]

No it's because old shit breaks more easily and gets more expensive to maintain the longer you try to keep it flying. It's really a simple decision: do you want to waste more money prolonging the already costly service life of the F-22 while living in the past and pretending it's going to be king of the skies forever, or do you want to divest from what's already becoming a maintenance money pit and put those funds over the next 10-15 years toward something that will completely outclass it and dominate the skies for decades to come? I love the F-22. It's a marvel of its time and a testament to the ingenuity of American aeronautical engineering, but in my opinion the writing is on the wall and its time is coming to an end.

[@lepermessiyah5823]

@@troys3757The biggest issue with that line of thought is that normally the new product doesnt meet the standard set by the previous generation. The factors causing this are usually varied and extensive which is the biggest risk when the F22 still outperforms all adversary nations for some time to come which is probably the reason this course of action is being considered. If the new project, be it NGAD or something else, was guaranteed to be effective in its program cycle and the jet ended up being as revolutionary as the F22 was when it entered service, then it would clearly be the better option. Nobody can predict how successful a program will be when it comes to aircraft especially when they are in the concept phase.

[@troys3757]

@@lepermessiyah5823 I don't understand your first statement. Can you give me an example? I can't think of any fighter generation that couldn't do something that a previous one could unless it was a deliberate tradeoff for some other performance metric (e.g. sacrificing top speed for range or vice versa). I think I generally agree with the spirit of your comment: a balance needs to be struck between maintaining existing capabilities and investing in future capabilities. I don't necessarily agree with the practicalities of continuing to upgrade the Raptor fleet at the expense of NGAD. Much like how you can't retroactively make a 4th Gen aircraft into a stealth aircraft on-par with the Raptor, the F-22 will not be able to effectively leverage key emerging technologies in the next 10-15 years that will improve both the Air Force and the defense industrial base's advanced production capabilities and institutional knowledge. These include, but are not limited to: Interfacing with CCA, utilizing combined cycle engines for high Mach super-cruise/better range/better fuel efficiency, increasingly more advanced sensors, utilizing AI and advanced network capabilities beyond what Link 16 can currently provide, advanced composites and airframe manufacturing techniques, etc. This tech is advancing faster than the Raptor will be able to keep up with it, and merely trying to get it up to snuff is going to be very financially intensive. I'd rather place my bets on a new airframe/family of airframes that can take advantage of recent advances. There's a lot more to unpack on this topic, particularly as it relates more to cost and defense budgets, but I think I've made my point. Also, half the reason I even left my first comment was because unlike you, the first guy decided to take nuance out of the discussion and hand wave all this away as merely corruption in the DoD. I appreciate you approaching the discussion with more thought.

[@moonasha]

no, it's because they're obsolete aircraft. Would you want to use a 1995 computer today? no? because that's basically what our pilots are doing every time they go up in an F-22. It's a dinosaur. It costs $100,000 per hour of flight. It would get its butt kicked by any chinese stealth fighter with an IRST because it completely lacks one. I don't think it even has the joint helmet mounted cuing system because it's such a nightmare to incorporate new things into the aircraft.

[@lepermessiyah5823]

@@moonasha wow it would get its butt kicked by a chinese fighter because no irst. now Ive heard it all. 2 actual fighter pilots just said its the best aircraft flying and thats the best you could come up with. The F15 was developed in the 70s with 70s electronics, guess we should just ground them too because they are just so outdated and have no irst. just wow.

[@MavHunter20XX]

Someone had a brain in the USAF. Thank God

[@squarewave808]

Clicked on this for the Tombstone reference. For anyone who hasn’t seen it, it’s about Iceman going back in time to be an Old West gunslinger.

[@RikkiSan1]

You just sold me on this movie, I've heard about it many times but never actually seen it now I want to lol

[@blarghinatelazer9394]

@@RikkiSan1 You're gonna absolutely love it, he steals the show.

[@squarewave808]

@@blarghinatelazer9394No doubt. He steals every scene he’s in. As a bonus, we also have Cpl. Hicks and Pvt. Hudson from Aliens.

[@razorbackblood06]

Tombstone is a great movie, its iconic much like top gun.

[@nekomakhea9440]

Sounds like Congress got a visit from the Good Idea Fairy lobby

[@mikeyjnson]

100%, with the F/A-XX budget being potentially cut, Lockheed wanted to guarantee some money for their shareholders for sure. Eisenhower's fear everyday proven justified.

[@mikeyjnson]

@mikemiller7946 no, but they were built with the USSR in mind, when they collapsed, we cut the amount ordered, but that rose the price per pop. Plus, the maintenance per flight hour for the mission needed is something that has obviously been thought through, no one wants to retire the sexiest and most capable fighter ever built, unless it doesn't make fiscal sense to. I've loved the F22 since I first laid eyes on it on the cover of Ace Combat 4, but even I can see that if was being retired, it was for a good reason that would not hinder our fighting power. I now wonder why the change of mind, what would be the motive to continue to fly and even spend more on these projects if we have the NGAD being injected money and the F/A-XX program budget being potentially cut. I can only see Lockheed Lobbying, but if it solves the issues that led to the decision to retire it, then all power to the USAF.

[@trollmastermike52845]

​@mikemiller7946cut 70s of our spending on military, pull out of the world stage, let Europe for once pay the bills, and sacrifice thier programs for quality of life for its civilians. And let us spend education, infrastructure, health, and quality housing, just like the very nice to live in euro countries.

[@moonasha]

@@trollmastermike52845 hate to break it to you but something like 60% of the federal budget goes towards social security and other social programs on top of that. The military budget is nothing in comparison. Allowing the world to be crapped up by pirates and dictators would not be good for business either.

[@trollmastermike52845]

@moonasha it's around 15% to 19% social security, I have no idea where 60% came from mind if I ask where you pulled that from? Also, let Sweden get a navy to protect their shipping interest and every other euro country, too, for that matter.

[@manley1979]

F22 is so unreal to see in person!!

[@MavHunter20XX]

also to hear as it warms up. It makes the most surreal sounds.

[@GladBeastBoy]

Seriously. It looks and sounds like a alien spacecraft or something 😂 but that baby is ours 😅

[@JoJo-vm8vk]

Upgrading the old F-22 may not be easy now the assembly line has been disbanded. For comparison, the first Rafale M F1 had to be stripped down and went through the assembly line again when upgraded to F3 standard.

[@geofftimm2291]

Wasn't there a scandal about missing tooling for the F-22? It was supposed to be stored and maintained, BUT the machines had vanished!

[@SoloRenegade]

you can always make new tooling. just cost money.

[@EvolvedTactical]

They found it after a few years. It's in storage now.

[@noahway13]

Really? Great insight. @@SoloRenegade

[@ProjectNemesis92]

​@@EvolvedTacticalplease provide the link to where said information was stated.

[@sabre051]

@@noahway13 IIRC the Japanese were interested in restarting F-22 production to replace their F-15s and they discovered it would be more cost effective to design and build an entirely new aircraft than to re-open the closed raptor production line. I think they were converted to F-35 lines? I could be mistaken on that last part.

[@slayersboxer915]

the true king of the sky does not simply "retire" in todays chaotic world.

[@ImBrockatron]

@@ntal5859 ok, what plane would you put your life on the line for over the f22? ill wait.

[@lepermessiyah5823]

@@ntal5859 I suppose you know of a valid conflict the F22 couldve taken part in?

[@hoosierdaddy3144]

@@ntal5859 how many air to air kills from any fighter in the last 10 years? lmao

[@mattnunya3163]

They never should have stopped production of the 22. I live in Massachusetts the 104th fighter wing last year announced they are switching from F-15s to 35s

[@lisaroberts8556]

The brain child of one Barrack Obama.

[@gdziewojsko]

There are like Six National Guard Squadrons on F-15C, 3 are getting F-35A (131st, 159th, 114th) , the other 3 are getting F-15EX (123rd, 194th, 122nd).

[@chrissteer3733]

Only 180 airframes.. Australia only has 75 fighter aircraft and we are classed as a regional power.

[@frzstat]

Australia has a lot of territory to defend with only 75 fighters. A few more squadrons of F/A-18Fs would be nice to have.

[@roninjedi2494]

The stupidity of the decision to put all their eggs in the F-35 and get rid of the 22 was beyond stupid. Beyond stupid. 15 year Air Force vet here and never had to worry about us not having air superiority my whole career until the idiots on charge decided to retire the 22 with no replacement ready.

[@billbrockman779]

SecDef Gates said the leadership of the AF had something called “next-war-itis” and we’d never have to fight a near peer. The Chinese rolled out their first Gen 5 fighter right after. Oh, he also fired the AF leadership for daring to dispute him.

[@richardcarbery7035]

question. Do the F22/35 Stealth platforms have a different use than the F18 Models in general. Are both required for different reasons. Also, wouldn't the next new thing be a stealthy fixed wing? If so, how could they approve on what's already flying?

[@BrandoDrum]

Is it though? When was the first air to air kill by the f22? It was last year, it shot down a balloon. That's a lot of dollars for an airframe that hasnt been used in anger aside from a show of force here and there and the f35 could have done those same things just as well. By the numbers it's a logical decision. But see, war isn't by the numbers. Now with Russia and China ramping up things have changed.

[@mracer8]

And you have worry now? So exactly which Russia jet fighter in Ukraine-Russia war that is so superior? Last time I look. We are still talking about getting Ukraine older model F16 that should dominate Russia sky when they arrive.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

Stop the nonsense. The eggs were put on the F-15 basket. The F-35 was never meant to replace the F-15C as the primary air superiority fighter. When F-22 production was cut, the F-15C was deemed sufficient for air superiority work and airspace defense. You people are making up a narrative in your heads that never existed. The US went F-15C -> F-22 -> back to F-15C.

[@perspicator5779]

Touche boys! Keep that one goin' as long as possible. Too valuable an asset.

[@docboy989]

The idea of retiring Raptors is insane to me, given the fact we still have B52s and F15s flying

[@ravener96]

I think the question was wether the f22 actually brought anything to the table that an f35 couldnt, and with the price of upgrades youre talking like two or three f35s worth of plane. At some point you are throwing good money after bad.

[@i.c.wiener2750]

@@ravener96 There's a reason why no country besides the US ever got the F-22. There's tech in there so advanced that the US kept it to themselves. We don't know if the F-35 outperformes the F-22 or if the F-22 is still ahead.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

That is a very interesting point towards giving the Guard more Raptors. I had inquired about this with a couple guys at the 142nd here in Oregon, as these poor F-15’s really are on their last legs (many pushing past 12,000 hours), and the EX still a few years away from deliveries. Why not bolster with these jets, they’d make for excellent patrol and intercept aircraft.

[@Rogue-7.62]

The operational cost of the F22 is beyond what most, if not all, states can truly afford.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

@@Rogue-7.62 you do realize that two states already use F-22s in their ANG, and neither of them are largest economically, that being Alaska and Hawaii.

[@iceberg0311]

@@Rogue-7.62 Don't the Feds fund the national guards anyway?

[@Rogue-7.62]

@jacobbaumgardner3406 that's why I said truly. They have them, but the cost to the State is to much vs others available. If Lockheed could restart the production line of the F22, but redsign the cockpit to include modern interfacing for future upgrades, it would be an even better aircraft than it is now.

[@jacobbaumgardner3406]

@@Rogue-7.62 no, it wouldn't. The F-22 isn't capable of receiving substantial upgrades or startarting production lines, at least not ones that would be cheaper than making a whole new aircraft, which is what they're doing. The cost to the state isn't necessarily too much, or there wouldn't be two states operating them. I could imagine larger states like Texas or California operating them. There's not that many F-22s, we don't need every states to adopt them.

[@YouTube_user3333]

F-22 wants Chinese food. Feed him! Would you intercept me? 😂

[@user-dd8vo7or2d]

Cringe

[@YouTube_user3333]

@@user-dd8vo7or2d yep and that’s why it’s funny 😆

[@UFO721]

If they update the F22 with latest tech used in the F35 you got an apex predator that will hold the torch until the next gen comes around.

[@LukeMachad0]

I think, ironically, one of the problems that held down the raptor the most was it's exclusivety. Not selling them in the export market means the US has to cover all production and operation costs alone, with no international capital coming in, so it becomes more difficult to justify the expense to congress.

[@derekprzybyla5822]

My old unit, the 175th WG out of Baltimore is the one retiring the A-10s and becoming the Cyber Wing which is a big slap in the face. We had a C-130J unit which was one of the 1st J squadrons with the Biloxi Hercs in the AF until they took those planes and moved them to the school house in Little Rock. The C-130 guys and gals became the Cyber unit a while ago.

[@Spicydeluxecombo]

I saw them do a flyover of the Ravens stadium last home game.

[@derekprzybyla5822]

@jonathancrouse8003 that will definitely be missed. I live in the the flightpath for the runway. So they're always flying over.

[@Spicydeluxecombo]

@@derekprzybyla5822 where i live, i was watching the game and saw them coming in, then I look out my window amd i can see them almost going to flyover my house. Such a surreal experience to sorta see them in person lol

[@slammerf16]

@@derekprzybyla5822You should get _really_ good internet soon. There's that.

[@basmo6803]

The problem isn't hardware parts. the problem is software and especially electronics. Most of those circuit boards/processors are obsolete.

[@RicCross]

Skimming through the comments for the “correct” answer, think yours is the most concise and on point as to why the Raptors days are sadly numbered. The software alone is millions lines of code spread across multiple vendors likely tied in some way to the processor/hardware architecture that made it work 20 plus years ago

[@harrypsaunders]

"...you have 50 year old F-15s" ... That was cruel, Gonky. Cruel.

[@princybella5386]

Not the New F-15EX.

[@beverlychmelik5504]

Finally install an IRST like they were suposed to have?

[@hilaigofast1053]

The Air Force needs a wholesale replacement of O-6 and above. They're even worse than the Navy.

[@ShadowOppsRC]

Most branches need house cleaning of leadership. Too many in it for career and money these days instead of serving country.

[@stevereightler4126]

Maryland Air Guard is losing their A-10s to become a cyber security unit. Where are the pilots and techs going to go? Doesn't make sense.

[@Recklessness97]

They are going to leave the service and continue with their civilian lives. At a time when the military is for hurting pilots and maintainers, the Air Force finds another way to push more skilled people out. Clipping the wings off the 175th is a terrible idea. Why can other wings throughout the state get F-35s, but my State of Maryland can not?

[@elcazador3349]

Three cheers for the grandest balloon hunter! Long may she fly!

[@noahway13]

And they call Ukraine an analog of WW1. Balloons were used in the Civil War. They could make one of those silly movies where a modern XYZ goes back in time. During a storm, a F-22 goes back to the Civil War.

[@paulbrooks4395]

They are having to consider many angles. More flight time means service life extension programs. Retiring jets means more time put on the remaining airframes. There's the question about how much of the cockpit needs to be upgraded, software, avionics, sensors, and then most importantly--airframe, panel, and stealth coating redesign, if any of those things are required. Then there's the crossover point, where it takes more time and money to complete all the various programs, get them flight tested and validated, compared to just building another 50-100 F-35s and calling it a day. Knock-on effects including training, support crew, bases, and budget space for other programs. The JSF program was way too optimistic and sold as a replacement to the F-22, which in turn lead to cuts in F-22 builds and sustainment programs. It's poor planning and management without the vision to see that everything takes longer than expected and planning for long term service and upgrades makes those upgrades cheaper. The cost of improvements not being used is ethereal, but the costs of not having the capabilities in place when you need them are both material and disastrous in wartime.

[@troys3757]

Agree, great response. I find that Mover and Gonky often overlook these considerations when speculating on the more technical/cost/procurement related issues. I think they would greatly benefit from having more engineers or contract guys to provide some extra perspective where their experience may be lacking.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

The JSF was NEVER the replacement for the F-22. The F-35 is like the F-16, the F-22 is like the F-15. The single engine multirole and the twin engine air superiority fighter. The F-22 production was cut because it would replace the F-15, and the F-15 was good enough. The JSF was never sold as a F-15C replacement.

[@KarpKomet]

I was pretty done with the cost of the F-22 and agreed generally with the cancellation at the time, right or wrong. But even back then I distinctly remember being surprised they didn't build 20-30 more as a insurance policy before calling it quits.

[@pistonburner6448]

Developing, testing, integrating the systems into an aircraft is what costs a lot. Not the production. They keep claiming that production was costly which is a sure sign of them lying and covering up for massive corruption.

[@piotrd.4850]

For starters, stopping production of F-22 so early and then attempt at retirement are about most stupid moves in post Cold War US DoD ideas, right there with LCS. F-22 is so capable platform, that EVEN AT EXPENSE of STEALTH it should be kept in service. Radar alone is worth it - not wanna make it frontline fighter? Make it armed reconnaissance, mini awacs ...

[@johns1039]

We retired the F-14 with nothing to replace it with. We are retiring the A-10 with nothing to replace it with. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with military procurement.

[@melvinjames1077]

Thats good ill check for updates on mine

[@myplane150]

The Raptor is worth 10 J20s and 20 SU57s. It would be crazy stupid not to keep it going at least until the NGAD replaces them one for one. Upgrading a 20 yo jet is very doable if it cost 150 million+ to make. If this was a 20 yo jet that cost 10 million to make, then retirement might be due.

[@1337flite]

185 F22s -thats the difference with the B52. Lots of airframes to strip for the B52.

[@Cwomack07]

IMO right now & for a while the AF leadership has not had a clue on how to handle this issue. The constant technical arguments I have heard about the F-22 is that "It can't be upgraded because all the old Coding used for it's systems is in a coding language no longer taught with extremely few experts in the particular coding language still around it would be too cost prohibitive to encode those upgrades" thus they can't be upgraded? Like all things there are solutions but who is going to flip the bill? IMO everything possible should be done to keep the Raptors in tip top shape until an actual NGAD production line is producing actual production lot aircraft .. guessing maybe 2035 at the earliest that'll be?

[@jppagetoo]

Professional programmers can learn a language in a few months.The software being written in a old language is not the core issue. The issue is that there are no compilers for that language that can be used on the latest computer hardware the AF uses in modern jets. So the software that controls the airplane would all need to be completely rewritten (then tested and debugged). Not only difficult, but I'd say impossible, no matter how much money is thrown at the problem.

[@ericaandshane]

You cite the small production run of the F-22 as to why it hasn't been upgraded, but there were only 102 B-52Hs built and that hasn't stopped upgrades including the B-52J.

[@troys3757]

Generally speaking, this is an apples to oranges comparison. The B-52 is a huge airframe with only one job, a very limited flight regime, and way more wiggle room (literally) for upgrades, both in terms of internal space and externally in the way of aerodynamic leeway for outboard-mounted sensor upgrades. More room = easier to upgrade = less costly to upgrade = more affordable for such a small fleet of aircraft = easier to justify the spending. It's also not stealth which automatically makes it much, much cheaper on top of that.

[@kanesword9528]

125th FW out of Jacksonville is moving to F35's. I'm a crew chief there and the sim is already being built :) We're currently flying F15 C's.

[@UFO721]

I would go as far as making an upgraded version like a Strike Raptor.

[@thorvelasco1467]

Time for Veritech Fighter Squadrons

[@Relayer6a]

I think they thought the rest of the "near peer" adversaries would catch up.

[@zackthebongripper7274]

Originally in the 80s the plan was to procure over 1000 F-22, then in late 90s it dropped to 720. . .

[@Space_Racer]

They will be hard to upgrade because they stopped making them a long time ago. We don't have tooling or parts we need to work on them. F-15, F-15 have been in continuous production since they started production. The B-52 argument is different because that thing is just a hauler at the end of the day. It does nothing advanced.

[@ChrisBlack1]

Battlefield is changing. David Berke said it best. The least impressive thing about the Raptor is its maneuverability and power. Theres a great clip of him talking about the paradigm shift from Hornet tactics to Raptor tactics and despite having a few thousand hours in the Hornet, when he went to the F-22 he was getting his ass kicked by recruits. He was trying to fly the F-22 the way people keep talking about it, like a 4th generation fighter. He kept losing because the rookies were flying the F-22 the way it should be flown. I think its great that they're finally looking at upgrading it because it will benefit from so much of what the F-35 had developed for it. The F-22 is meant to be the shield for the Eagles and the F-35 is meant for SEAD and DEAD primarily in the USAF, as well as a compact AWACS platform. F-15C's acting as missile trucks at standoff ranges being fed information by F-22's and F-35's. Thats as per everyhthing ive heard from FPP and various people

[@gojeffgordon24]

10 points to whoever put the Doc Holiday image in for the thumbnail. That’s awesome! 😂

[@hansmak7321]

I was at Hill AFB for the Thud out in the 1980s. I believe piloted aircraft still will be needed.

[@PeterMuskrat6968]

The elder of the bunch will be retired, a large chunk of the rest are getting some of the F-35's capabilities as a stopgap until NGAD. As far as "why would we want to get rid of them" Because they are extremely expensive to maintain... older RAM needs waaaaaayyyy more maintenance per flight hour than the newer RAM on the F-35 and B-21.

[@mikeck4609]

It’s my understanding that all the equipment that makes the parts was destroyed. So in the end, not only can you not produce any new ones (to replace combat losses) but you can’t produce the spare parts the current ones need to remain in service. so they’ve got no choice but to phase it out b/c they will all have parts break eventually

[@pistonburner6448]

That is an urban legend which is indeed circulating. But that's story is absolutely ridiculous. Of course it's not impossible to *_easily_* restart production. What a ridiculous claim: what parts could there possibly exist on that plane that we can't easily start producing again? Even the most difficult coatings will be produced even more easily than in the original production run, possibly with far faster and less costly processes which have been developed since then. There is no possible reason which would result in production being impossible or even difficult.

[@troys3757]

The tooling was not destroyed. It was unaccounted for during a period of time in the 2010's but that turned out to be an inventory mistake. The tooling was eventually found where it was left. That being said, the airframe is too costly to maintain because they cut the number produced to less than half of what was initially planned. It never benefitted from economies of scale like the F-35. There's a lot that goes into manufacture of such a high-end aircraft that is hard to revive/reproduce more than a decade after its production run ended. Restarting production alone will indeed cost billions of dollars. More importantly, all the institutional knowledge from the F-22 program is gone: engineers, shop floor workers, and machinists that worked on it are long gone because they either died, retired, or moved on to other prospects. Training new people to replace them is not only a massive financial undertaking, it also comes at the opportunity cost of not having the manpower or talent to work on something better, like NGAD. After all is said and done in a theoretical production restart scenario, the taxpayer will be paying much more for a plane that's going to be outclassed within a few years of the first one rolling off the lot, if not before it even gets completed.

[@pistonburner6448]

@@troys3757 Ridiculous claims. As if producing a tried and tested aircraft could possibly be more expensive than developing a new aircraft... Laughable! It's pretty scary how many people parrot such ridiculous urban legends or made-up excuses made to cover up corruption. Get a grip.

[@mikeck4609]

Right…anyone who doesn’t believe it’s corruption like you is an idiot. What I understood may not be correct, but the idea that an airframe might require special parts that aren’t being produced by the 3rd party manufacturers that originally made them 20 years ago is an actual thing. Companies move on and sometimes specialized manufacturing equipment is required for certain high tech or precise parts. Companies don’t just keep those tools lying around “in case”. So I don’t see what’s so fantastical about a situation where the airforce can no longer get certain parts for tbe F-22 b/c the company that made them no longer does…or can …without a major reinvestment So yeah, it’s QUITE possible retooling all the manufacturing systems of various vendors needed to make parts AND re-tooling the Lockheed plants to make more F-22s (which requires entirely different manufacturing equipment and training than the F-35) is more expensive than starting over It’s not government corruption; it’s capitalism. If a factory is no longer going to get paid to make a thing, it isn’t going to sit idle, it will begin Making other things. Since neither I nor you are familiar with the various f-22 systems and how difficult they are to produce. so I don’t see what’s so ridiculous about suggesting that BAE, Raytheon, GE or whatever vendors who made parts for the F-22 can’t just “put out” the old equipment they have in storage and start churning them out again.

[@troys3757]

​@@pistonburner6448 Very generous CBO estimates in 2017 have put restarting production of the F-22 at $50 Billion to manufacture and procure an additional 194 units at a flyaway cost of $200-$220 Million per plane. It would take 10+ years to deliver the first one. For 75 additional aircraft you're looking at more than $17 Billion. NGAD development costs for the manned AND unmanned portions *combined* over the next five years are estimated to be $28 Billion. If they started producing new F-22's *today* we wouldn't see the first one until the 2030's, by which time we are currently scheduled to have something better in production. By the time we get the first new F-22, China is projected to have well over 1000 J-20's. If you have a substantive refutation for any of what I said other than vaguely hinting at "corruption", then I'm genuinely all ears.

[@The_blindpizzaguy1300]

I was actually watching a comprehensive video on this recently and upgrades that they’re doing are not to the air frame itself, but to the storage capacity weapons, and a helmet mounted display similar to what the F35 and F-15EX has. Storage capacity, meaning not widening the airframe itself, but memory in the computer. Basically the F-22 was running on. Less than 64 gigs of storage space now they’re upgrading them to have 4 TB. There’s no need to change the engines or the airframe because those F119‘s are Hella powerful, far more powerful than the Air Force wants us to know. And the stealth coding is way expensive so they’re figuring out a way to change it to the same coding that the F3 5 has which is going to be far more cost-effective. They are adding a few more advanced weapon systems like the F35 has and finally, for some reason, the raptor doesn’t have a helmet mounted display so they have to fix the computer to recognize that so all this is going to round out to be $11 billion according to Lockheed in the Air Force I can’t wait to see what Congress is actually gonna do with this.

[@marknunya3107]

This isn’t good news; if true, it means NGAD is wayyyy behind.

[@howardroark7726]

They're just too expensive, especially considering near peer rivals don't have anything in the same league. Important thing is production can be restarted if needed. When it's a survival situation the bean counters find a way to pay for things.

[@butchshadwell3613]

Cost per hour of flight time (man hours and dollars) is a powerful consideration. With vectored thrust and stealth coating, these planes take a lot of maintenance, or they lose these advantages very quickly.

[@CS_Grizzly]

Thats my point about the F-15's.... why upgrade a 50 year old plane when you have the F-22 you can upgrade...

[@randy7068]

I'd like to see them keep the A-10, but I understand why its become obsolete in todays battlefield scenario.

[@anthonyj5298]

it's not obsolete

[@stupidburp]

We should upgrade 100% of the F-22 to the most capable standard and provide some life extension modifications as part of the package. They are a strategic asset that takes years to produce but only hours to potentially need to use all of them in a sudden major crisis.

[@Konstant72]

Look at Fender and Gibson's iconic Stratocaster/Telecaster/Les Paul/SG guitars. They've been around since the 50/60's and still continue to grace the biggest stages around the world. Iconic and brilliant designs that are so good that it's fair to say they have stood the test of time. Same with F16's, F15's, F18's, F22;s etc etc.

[@michaelrunnels7660]

That may be true of guitars, but not when it comes to performance electronics. Try using amplifiers, speakers, mixers, microphones, etc. from the 1950s for a current day band on a world tour. Fighter aircraft design are driven by performance, not how pretty they are.

[@Konstant72]

@@michaelrunnels7660 Fair. I'm referring to the general design of the guitar/plane. Not the electronics. Let's say the airframe or body of the plane. The 'insides' can be updated accordingly.

[@Tezza120]

Why would you burn $67 Billion to just replace it in 20 years? Get your money's worth and keep it going until it's more cost effective with another airframe.

[@TK199999]

The problem with the F-22 is unlike the F-15 and F-16 is there is are only 180 aircraft of single production run and there will never ever be any more. That means there is no active production line that can make improvements, let alone new aircraft, but most importantly no new spare parts. Yes a lot of replacement parts can still be made for the F-22 but every year that goes by those become more and more expensive to point they will start exceeding the cost of even an NGAD. Compare this to the F-15 and F-16 which are still in production with improvements and upgrades going back 50 years with multiple versions of the aircraft. Along with 100's of spare parts suppliers alone for each aircraft in dozens of countries around the world. The F-22 is literally a dead end and even the upgrades are just stop gap measure on an aircraft that was doomed the moment production was stopped. Right now there is no real interceptor air superiority gap. Since their are literally hundreds of F-35's in stealth mode can effectively take out all current generation adversary aircraft in BVR combat.

[@JohnMasell]

This elevated priority may be less of a capabilities-based and engineering-feasibility position and more of a strategy to get congress to plus up/fully fund the AF budget. Rightfully and just, you are thinking of this issue through your fighter-pilot filter and not from a bean-counter position. Much chaos in the puzzle palace revolves around funding strategies to field and maintain capabilities for the next fight. While it may seem stupid on the surface, there could be a larger play in place that is not visibly apparent. FWIW, I could be severely overestimating the level of thought going into this position...

[@sfertonoc]

I dont understand the frenzy about converting guard units to cyber these days. It is a big bureaucrat mistake. These people behind the cushy keyboards and "leader protection" are allergic to any kind of forces integration mindset answering to a mission cell.

[@benokanruzgar8863]

F-22 needs situational awareness from F-35, nothing else or more ever needed for next 25 years.

[@mglmouser]

How exactly does the F-22 does it's mission-specific use «well»? The only it ever shot down was a weather ballon.

[@johnaikema1055]

boeing keeps crapping the bed. the idea of the f15ex being a stop gap until the NGAD is operational is being questioned due to boeings poor performance. thing is... is LM really that much better? you guys need more manufacturers not less.

[@Lowlight23]

Best thumbnail! 😂🫡

[@knuj007]

What is the thumbnail from? It looks familiar

[@markwybierala4936]

There's no such thing as a part that can not be remanufactured or duplicated and its probably in our best interests to maintain and exercise the abilities of our nation to produce on-demand manufacturing. As the ultimate air dominance fighter, we should have never permitted the F22 production resources to be scrapped until we had a proven replacement in numbers. Air dominance is expensive and we must pay the price unless we are willing to yield our position. Are these airframes worn out?

[@cfisher11]

Sounds like NGAD program is not going well, why else would continue to upgrade the F22?

[@toddie4usa1]

Wrong it's actually Ahead of schedule

[@andrewwang1480]

Even the Block 20 F-22s still have more than half of their 8,000 hour life left, and that’s without any SLEP.

[@BravoCheesecake]

The NGAD is most likely waiting on maturation of its cutting edge technologies. The USAF probably realizes it will take longer than expected so it needs to fill the time gap. If only the US Navy could think like this instead of wasting a decade on useless ships all while decommissioning large bulks of our fleet.

[@firefoxx04]

The fact that we are not producing more is what is insane to me. Retiring them is criminal.

[@jebrehbaker8613]

Laughs in B52

[@mbignell1]

Right? Those things could well see 100 years service. Incredible.

[@Excalibur01]

Grandpa buff is never gonna retire

[@crazypetec-130fe7]

Sneers in C-130. :p

[@alexalbrecht5768]

The Air Force will keep them around just long enough for NGAD. I wonder what fleet size will be sufficient to justify retiring raptors. The B-52 is largely kept aloft by the large number of retired airframes.

[@mracer8]

Because they are SUPER EXPENSIVE. That’s about 135 million reason.

[@anotheran]

Happens when the 6th gen isn’t as far along as planned

[@moseskelly2886]

The Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor is an absolute legend. 😎 The F-35 Lighting ii along with all the other fighter jets are very awesome, pretty cool tbh. Of course they all have different purposes, missions, and objectives. Then some can relate due to having similar things that they do. I wish the Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt ii aka Warthog can stay in. My reason/point for saying that which is an opinion; is that it is the only aircraft of its kind, its gets the job done, completes the mission/objective very well, its main mission is to give ground support, of course it can do some other things if & when needed, and another thing I thought about is no other aircraft will ever look like or have a similar airframe like the iconic legendary Warthog. Do you all think the same or something in the same direction? I was just wanting to get some insight on everything. I saw one last week and thought "wow that's an incredibly legendary aircraft."

[@UsmanSiddiq1]

Japan did some research on restarting F-22 production line back in 2020 and they found the amount needed to manufacture them is ludicrous, hence they start their own 6th gen jet program.

[@UsmanSiddiq1]

@@donbusu Yes and Japan got the congress to agree but Japan was supposed to pay for all the cost of upgrade and restart the production line. The cost round about to be 210-200 million dollar/plane alone. With maintenance and spares, it could have jumped to even more crazy figure. So, Japan opted for their own 5th gen program and F-35's.

[@slammerf16]

F-22,should have sold them to the UK, Canada and AUS to spread the cost. Instead we ended up with Eurofighter which is good - but it's no Raptor, and the F18 is even worse for countries with huge borders and no carriers.

[@rodolfohernandez3303]

I think I've prefer to keep the F-22 better than the F-35.

[@Coyote5005]

I wonder if we had acquired the YF-23 instead, would that aircraft be more relevant today than the Raptor?

[@CWLemoine]

Unlikely.

[@charlesrichardson8635]

The tooling and space for the F15 and F16 have never been shut down... So that the difference. The tools and production line for F22 was given to the F35, so that's all gone and would have to be rebuilt. Currently the F22 is getting a $12B upgrade for about 160 of them. It will be a great plane . THE BIGGEST CHANGE has been to the new ceramic RAM! This will reduce the flt hr/cost greatly and improves stealth. BTW two F35 against two F22, the F35 will win the most. With a far more advanced DAS, the F35's will see the F22's before a S400 radar or most AWACS because two F35 will track those two mach bumble bees where the F22's won't. I love the F22 and I think the upgrades and life extensions are a great plan. I think the retirement talk was not realizing the cost of stealth maintenance was going to drop fast.

[@pootmahgoots8482]

What if they took all the fancy, new stuff that's in the F-35, and put that in the F-22? I've seen pictures of the cockpits of both planes and the F-35 looks way cleaner and less busy IMO.

[@xlorian]

It’s the F119 engines that are the main achilles heel for the F-22. Those engines were only produced for the F22 and with no export customers to keep production and tooling going you are stuck. Also how much does it cost to convince companies to allow someone to license manufacture spare parts?

[@garyradtke3252]

What I don't understand is what they do with the plans and engineering drawings and procedures for manufacturing the parts? Once I bake a pie I don't throw out the instructions or tools. Why wouldn't they be kept until the piece of equipment is being discarded?

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

A kitchen can be used to make any dish. It's generic. A manufacturing production line can only make a plane. If that plane is not being made, the manufacturer has to somehow cart off all that stuff so they can make some other plane and remain in business.

[@jasonpeacock9735]

LM had to shutdown F-16 production and move it to another facility to open up enough room to meet F-35 production demands. They’re not going to shut that line down and delay F-35 sales just to produce a few F-22s.

[@terrydavis8451]

You have to remember our country will do the dumbest option possible because our leaders are not serious people. They are walking talking commercials for what biz wants.

[@deanwilliams433]

I do think that autonomous AI drones are the next big money investment.

[@SovereignKnight74]

F-22 is a bad ass bird. Nothing like it. It's sleek and sexy too!

[@Error_404_Account_Deleted]

If anything we need more F-22s, with updated electronics for the gap in technology.

[@Resistantspoon]

The F22 EX is coming

[@FAAAARK]

Mover looking to create himself a Raptor Guard seat. Hell yeah 🤘

[@paulblack-ty4iv]

I surmise NGAD is an off and on type of thing and I'm sure there's an expiremental platform or two which may or may not be the "It" design so yeah 10 years beyond testing then maybe tack another 10 to see it operational then extend that to make them in actual meaningful numbers.

[@moonasha]

the reason they don't want to keep the F-22s around is because they're just so insanely expensive to maintain. They were designed on an entirely different generation of stealth and require climate controlled hangers and all sorts of other maintenance between flights. Last I checked it was $70,000 per flight hour per F-22, though I imagine that's up to 100k by now. They are insanely expensive airplanes. They also have dated computer systems, which i think is one of the reasons hooking up some kind of IRST is going to be so monumentally expensive. And a stealth fighter without an IRST these is like Velma from scooby doo without her glasses. The air force is looking to retire airframes after 20 or so years now in favor of a new airplane, it's cheaper in the long run I guess.

[@minthouse6338]

Computers are always being upgraded. That shiny new laptop you bought will be a piece of junk in 6 months because the manufacturer gone and developed something better.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

​@@minthouse6338 That's not how it works. Aviation computers work on different architectures and code. If your facebook tab crashes no biggie. If an aircraft has a software or hardware crash in the air, oh boy. Same reason banks don't have their backend ran on Windows. We don't trust the commercial laptop with financial transactions, why should we trust it to handle a demanding flight regime?

[@chrisblack6258]

I think it's not a bad decision to cut the production number of the jet. Apparently great powers can get dragged down by spending too much on maintaining its capability and lose its technology and economic edge over its competitors. It's not like F-22s were desperately needed in the last 20 years. Plus, you have F-35s to bridge the gap before the next Gen is ready.

[@JetDriver77]

20 years is not too long when the abomination of a procurement/contract process takes almost two decades by itself.

[@vrwebsites101]

Why would you retire it?

[@cruisinguy6024]

Cost to operate, cost of maintenance, airframe hours, cost of upgrade……..basically they’re quite expensive to own and operate

[@doyouwanttogivemelekiss3097]

Pre-2022 thinking: 6th gen is coming up. At the same time, the f-35 is sufficient to maintain 5th gen proficiency. So the f-22 just takes up valuable resources that could be spent on a 6th gen platform. Yes, there would be a capability gap, but (pre-2022), without a near peer adversary, thats manageable, and as soon as 6th gen is online, the gap would have disappeared, while costing less tax dollars. Post-2022 thinking: we've got to spread 'em all over the globe, to keep Xi and Putin in check, otherwise they get really dumb ideas. Quantity is a quality of its own.

[@Defender78]

We should set up a go fund me or some kind of crowd sourcing drive for the F22, I'd be glad to drop some money in the bucket every month so the US can have more raptors

[@cruisinguy6024]

@@Defender78 the Raptor costs roughly $85,000 per hour to fly. That would have to be one hell of a GofundMe. The F-22 program cost is about $3 billion a year, which is pretty significant considering the entire defense budget was $782 billion last year.

[@darkwinter7395]

With modern CNC + 3D printing making parts is trivial. Even the more exotic parts (engine components, stealth stuff) is easy to make, once you have the plans + specs (and secret formulas). The only legitimate reason to retire a platform is if you *actually* have a better one. (and no, I do not consider the politics and profiteering of the military-industrial-congressional complex to be a legitimate reason)

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

No, it's not. All it takes is a flaw on a 3d printed part to lose an airframe or possibly a pilot. You need tons of testing and validation. It's not the same thing as printing a new door handle for your beater car. If aerospace engineering was easy anyone would do it.

[@darkwinter7395]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD The technology you would use depends on what the part is. For critical components, you would probably use a CNC mill or lathe (or both, depending on the geometry you need), as the strength of the material is higher on a per volume basis. For most 3D printed parts, you would be using a metal 3D printer, not a machine that makes plastic. The few parts you would make out of plastic would be things that a failure isn't catastrophic in - noncritical switch covers, cable clamps in areas that are subject to pre-flight inspection, etc. All of these parts would be inspected prior to use - X-rays, CT scanning, ultrasound, etc. If the design changed (i.e, using a metal 3D printer to produce something where to get the required strength the geometry of the part needed to be enlarged) then you would do a full set of tests-to-failure on it to fully characterize the new design. All of this is standard procedure for modern industrial rapid parts production, and these parts are used in safety-critical man-rated systems. FWIW - metal 3D printed parts are currently in use in rocket engines, in high-stress parts that are intended for multiple flights.

[@stompinmcallister1312]

They got bunch of canopy horse heads for the f22, , I assembled many a hundred two per aircraft.

[@kevinr.9757]

Best thumbnail yet!

[@cameron1975williams]

Hey Lockheed Martin, please send some of the work to the UK. Thanks.

[@mikesmith-wk7vy]

The f22 is really our only answer for the new Russian and Chinese fighters . Ngad is in reality decades away from real production and the f35 isn’t living up to hardly any of its goals as it’s almost impossible to actually run a fleet of the things without massive issues popping up

[@krunchie101]

F-22 is going to be around for at least another 15 years, so it makes sense to upgrade them. NGAD still early prototypes.

[@michaelblaker2334]

Speaking of Tucson, B-52 and other older aircraft parts = AMARG