Faith and Doubt - Terryl Givens and Spencer Fluhman

[@georgiaborn1173]

This is Great! It keeps me going!

[@zacharysheppard995]

Couldn't agree more. Thanks for the video! Sometimes you can feel of less value as a member (and i guess some sense of pressure to unnaturally conform to it), when you actually don't necessarily believe or know a particular aspect of the gospel. But i do have a belief in many aspects of it that i hold dear to my heart. Doubting has been a blessing for me, because it allowed me to evaluate what i truly did know, and i was then able to build my faith on a true foundation. It has opened up a much more real and honest faith for me and brought me closer in my realtionship with god.

[@trentpehrson4072]

This conversation primarily discusses the phenomenon of uncertainty in a believer who wants to believe-- a pretty safe and easy discussion to have on doubt. But what about doubt that is not uncertain. What happens when concrete reality shows a member that a doctrine fails or is untrue? Is there still a place for them? Is it still OK? Are they expected to continue denying reality? What about when the doubt is based in finding a doctrine to be morally bankrupt or harmful? That's where the real doubt lies. That's a little more difficult to discuss, I'd guess. And it seems like these conversations would be a bit more meaningful if they involved people other than academically trained apologists asking leading questions with pre-cooked answers.

[@ethanf.237]

The premise of your comment is based on the assumption that there are in fact instances in which "concrete reality shows to a member that a doctrine fails or is untrue"... I disagree with that assumption. All of the proposed "instances of concrete reality" that I see used by non believers in trying to push this argument, have a lot more ambiguity baked into them than they care to admit. I think intelligent people can disagree about the conclusions we should draw from them. So, I guess I'd just ask you to substantiate that assumption. What instances of "concrete reality" seem to make faith a logical impossibility in your view?

[@trentpehrson4072]

@@ethanf.237 appeal to faith, by definition, is a logical fallacy. One specific case of concrete reality that conflicts with a claim of faith in the CoJCoLDS is the Breathing Permit of Hor. It is real, observable by all, and its origin and content are well understood. This document neither contains the text of the Book of Abraham, nor are translations of texts and descriptions of scenes in its vignettes, (depicted in the Book of Abraham) what the Book of Abraham claims them to be. There are cases where nothing concrete exists to back claims. Some examples of this are claims that gods and afterlives exist. These are not logical or scientific claims. They are pure faith claims that cannot be logically of scientifically backed. There are cases of concrete things, which are completely unrelated to claims, but which are used to back claims as if they were related. Logically, this is also a fallacy. An example of this would be using nature as evidence for the existence of gods.

[@dl6066]

Some may have issues about church doctrines but they are not important as people in the Church who do not strive to be True disciples of Christ. I think that is why people leave the Church of Jesus Christ. We all got to try harder to live the gospel. That they many see, we may see what the trueness of discipleship is all about. This Restored gospel is so wonderful full go grace and goodness. we the members need to do better job. I am thankful for people like Terryl and Florna Givens and other True Disciples of Christ.