Fandom Has A White Favouritism Problem

Lily's talking about white favouritism again! Sharpen your knives and shove them up your a$$! SUPPORT STITCH! GIVE MY FRIEND MONEY!
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00:00 - Hastily Written Opening
00:16 - The Confusing Fanbase of Bucky Barns
00:49 - Is That A Hunter Weapon?
01:28 - What Are You Doing Step-Rival?
01:58 - Hexxat, but Boring
02:42 - Obligatory Warcraft Inclusion
05:29 - The Snakey Children
06:29 - Stay Cool, Bird Boy
09:37 - Lois Lane Jumping Off Buildings
11:08 - Fandom Effort Is Not Equal
11:55 - Twitter Garbage Has Consequences
13:02 - The Harassment of Stitch is an Admission of Guilt
#worldofwarcraft #theowlhouse #harrypotter #baldursgate3

[@Lily_Orchard]

I don't want to hear your dissertation on why Amber is actually bad. Go somewhere else.

[@Dragoot]

Okay, I will.

[@promethiada]

@@Dragoot This isn't the airport, no need to announce your departure

[@Viod753]

People are stupid!

[@jamalhartley5863]

I will say they shouldn't have gotten back together at the end. That is all my Amber complaints.

[@huey_kind611]

those are cornrows not locs🤦🏾‍♂️

[@fangdelabang178]

When it comes to fandom racism the most horrific example I can think of is Rue from the Hunger Games. Despite always being described with ‘dark skin’ the fandom was shocked when a black girl was cast as her. There was outrage on how her character ‘wouldn’t be the same’ and most insidiously how it would be harder to sympathise with her character now. Yeah … harder to sympathise with a 12 year old girl forced to fight to the death by her government because she is now black …. It was horrific.

[@marquistf1996]

Yeah I remember this and it wasn’t that long ago. Shit was insane. People really turned their back on the character. They even tried to bully the creator when casting was revealed, only for her to cite the source material over and over again telling them she was black the whole time and they needed to stop being racist.

[@fangdelabang178]

It was atrocious. She was literally a child but since she didn’t fit the headcanon of people who couldn’t read she was met with such racism. The irony of this being the hunger games, too.

[@Billpro25]

Oh, gods! Why you had to remind me that awful, AWFUL time, dear stranger. I still vividely remember how over the top the racism was. And that comment in particular stack with me for months: "When I learned that Rue was Black, her death wasn't so sad." Simply awful.

[@simonflores1047]

How… Rue is so nice. She was one of my favorite characters.

[@chadnorris8257]

This reminds me of stories where if an amber alert is called for a little white girl, everyone's doing their best to find her. If a little black girl goes missing, people sleep on it. Racism is alive and well, and the only people who want to stop talking about it are those that don't want to fix the problem.

[@pedmonds2011]

This sounds like the time with The Hunger Games, where racists forgot Rue was black. And how they threw a fit towards the film actress. For portraying her accurately in the films. Since so many white readers read Rue as the “default,” white girl in the novel. While completely ignoring the description of dark skin, dark hair, and brown eyes.

[@dianehallmeyer8901]

:( Rue was my favorite, and her death upset me so much in those books. I literally wanted her to win over Katness. How do people literally not care about her because of something as superficial as skin color.

[@Sigzyl]

Actually she isn't even portrayed accurately because in the books she's described as darkskin just like Thresh and the actress is quite light-skinned

[@Devilspade]

@@Sigzyl even then it was still a storm about her being black, crazy

[@axel7541]

I think this particular case is even more horrific, cause they were literally harassing a 12 year old child, not just bashing fictional characters

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

​@@Sigzylnot even light skin she's mixed, America and their one drop rules, how long you gonna hold onto that

[@promethiada]

My favorite example is Peter B Parker being dubbed as "fun dad" for bringing his infant daughter on missions and letting her crawl around the work space with dangerous equipment, while Jessica is deemed irresponsible and horrible for going on missions while pregnant

[@arbitarious]

Omg yes. I saw that and I was like "bitch may day is crawling around right now?"

[@mikailaturkleson7472]

Not to mention, they also got on Jessica's case for not being a 100% supportive mother figure to Gwen even though she gave Gwen a lot more leeway than anyone in her position usually would.

[@JaneDoeValentine]

@@mikailaturkleson7472and these same people will shit on her for going after Miles, but then excuse Miguel in the same breath. Why? Because Miguel’s hot. The fetishism in the fandom is insane

[@DuneStone6816]

Where have you heard that? Everyone I know thinks they're both dumb parents.

[@GraveyardMaiden]

Let's not forget the sexism there. After all, she's obviously a fragile pregnant woman, eyeroll. Honestly wish she had more screen time

[@seanshack1872]

Bro istg that infinity train discourse about grace and Simon got on my nerves so badddddd. Like in a universe where you had NUMBERS to show morality and character development somehow fandom still went and picked the fucked up white boy. HE LITTERALLY SHIRVELS INTO DUST IN THE END BUT YOU WANT TO ATTACK A BLACK WOMEN. Both the writers and the train were shouting that simon was bad but fandom just plugged its ears and kept moving.

[@user-zz7cy1gc6v]

i honestly dont understand how people were able to like him after what he did to best character gorilla mom like, i hated him, i guess im not straight enough to like this pile of rotten starch and Grace had like the best arc in the entire show, like this is the most evident example of video's subject, at least hunter was empathetic..

[@dynamitewolft4194]

tbh i hated both of them from the start and wanted both to die.

[@lucainectheleonas7957]

Yeah, that is disheartening.

[@rosykindbunny1313]

He's an extremely well written character, but that doesn't mean he isn't an awful person. Grace is much better.

[@micromints1735]

I have to assume Lily could mine a lot out of a video on that series because Simon is pretty much just Catra if she was written by a sane person that doesn’t want to glorify a domestic abuser.

[@lupinstargazer9907]

People really threw a fit because Blouse Zabini turned out to be black? I had mostly exited the HP fandom by this point, so I'd never heard this before. Wild! Honestly, I was picturing Blaise Zabini as Indian since book one based solely on his name. Granted, I now know his name is French and Italian, but I was nine when book one came out and thought the name sounded middle eastern. JKR really wasn't subtle about pointing out non white characters (Cho Chang, Padma and Parvati Patil, etc) and the only black character with an Anglo sounding name, Dean Thomas, is pointed out as being black right from the get go.

[@Gyrono]

I believe Angelina Johnson was depicted as black since book 1 as well as Dean. Though that's still just 2 characters, won't give Rowling any credit for that.

[@ShadowDOA]

Here's another one for you, Miles Morales as Spider-Man. I can't tell you how many times people come out of the wood work to complain about him being Spider-Man next to Peter Parker weather it be games or movies. Im spite of the fact that spider man has so many variants that an entire movie was made about it. That didn't stop all the whining about Miles Morales being Spider-Man let alone the main focus of the movie

[@Lily_Orchard]

Oh let me tell ya, I have thoughts about the Spider Verse movies

[@promethiada]

The Spiderverse fandom has this very weird thing about either infantilizing poc (Pavitr is the best example) or watering them down to racist caricatures for smut fics. Seriously, the amount of times I've seen Miguel being written as "violent Hispanic man with anger issues going after young adults (usually women)" is alarming

[@varibunn]

​@prometheada. Oh god I have sooooo many issues with how Fandom has reduced him to horny jokes about how he's so violent and its just so gross. I stay far away from anyone who touches that

[@amateraustt9901]

​@@Lily_Orchardcan't wait for the video,if you do It.

[@Lily_Orchard]

@@amateraustt9901 Well the next one is about Baldur's Gate 2

[@theairalchemist]

While I disagree that Astarian is a bland character, I do agree the fandom does sleep on Wyll alot which is a big shame. I think one of the most popular characters atm is Karlach.

[@Lily_Orchard]

The problem with Astarion is he's literally copy-pasted from a Baldur's Gate 2 character: Hexxat.

[@nuttyita2517]

@@Lily_Orchard I personally think the differences between them end at "vampire that was locked up for some time", but I'll admit it is pretty funny how stereotipical his looks are, he really feels like the character someone that just started playing D&D would make

[@dokikicingene1517]

@@Lily_OrchardI knew it!

[@user-pi8pi3wj7h]

​@@madamabelladonna3704whose only problem is legal trouble? What game did you play? Wyll literally gets devil horns for trying to do the right thing and is a WARLOCK with a pact with an evil demon. He also has daddy issues and is still trying to do the right thing while finding a way out of his pact that doesn't involve harming Karlach. How is that boring? How is any of that less interesting than the wizard that eats shoes or the twilight character?

[@user-pi8pi3wj7h]

​@@madamabelladonna3704please stop trying to pretend the issue is anything besides fandom racism because if he was white yall would eat that shit up

[@TubeTAG]

To be fair, if you're white, male and *disabled* you'll also get ignored. Unless the disability is instantly covered up such that you can't actually explore the experience of disabled people or ablism in general.

[@noahrotter]

Weight too. I remember being a guy on tumblr in high school, when I had a lot of body image issues. All I ever saw were stick thin guys getting mountains of fanart.

[@disgustof-riley8338]

Oh truuuue. Disability "ruins" the blorbo potential of pretty much any character with any background. That is, at least, until someone infantilizes them. Lose lose :')

[@Nymmph-nw1ex]

why do yall keep trying to put literal fucking racism into a frame of reference you understand? especially with the opening "to be fair", as if it's anything comparable. the extent to which people cant fathom racism is horrendously dehumanizing to whole classes of people with _/nothing wrong with them/_ (disability isnt the standard form a human can be born as, it isnt heritage) to a gruelling degree. People will still look at a white disabled person as a real person with thoughts behind their eyes, despite the condesention and pity - people will look at able bodied POC (especially non american) as if we're fucking aliens, never mind the fact that POC CAN BE DISABLED, DIPSHIT. jesus fucking christ. white people can never fucking fathom a discussion can be not about them for once, they have to be shoehorned in through lgbt labels or disability or mental illness, completely fucking unaware that those arent even in the same fucking ballpark as race.

[@fentanylfloyd2474]

​@@noahrotterHave you tried eating less and moving more?😂

[@Toadstoolthefroggo]

@@fentanylfloyd2474Wow. No one has ever thought of that everrrrr

[@sweetpea2604]

What also bothers me is that people head cannon him as Autistic. As an Autistic person myself I don’t relate to Hunter at all. All of his actions & behavior can easily be explained with, he was groomed into thinking his actions were justified & he was sheltered from the rest of the world so much that he’s never talked to another witch outside of the Empires Coven. You wanna know who I do head cannon as Autistic & even ADHD? Luz, I connect way more with her on so many levels despite not being the same race as her. But because white males are commonly diagnosed as Autistic in the real world while every other race and gender is completely ignored, he gets the head cannon the most.

[@Lily_Orchard]

People headcanon the white guy as autistic (or autistic coded) because it's the only thing they can think of that someone won't immediately shoot down.

[@VirtuosoI]

Yeah it's a faux safety net on their blorbo so they can justify attacking you if you criticize the character and claim you're being ableist to them by proxy.

[@docfox4353]

I do see Luz as ADHD and Autistic myself. Hunter may be neurodivergent to some degree, but a lot of his personality stems from being groomed by Belos into the ideal version of Caleb.

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

When she hyperfocuses on glyphs, that part was fun

[@MCBigman]

That sitcom bit was so on freaking point. So glad traditional sitcoms didn't die but man, it sure almost did.

[@dryadkey]

When?

[@aBeerFromHere7994]

I wanted to have 1 whole episode focused on Vee and Camila having a fun day in the human world.

[@AdamAdver]

We probably would’ve had one if Disney hadn’t axed the 3rd season lolz

[@sunseraph1919]

Lily, that “If Hunter was Black, you wouldn’t [like him]” line was so fvcking raw. It was the sickest mic drop I’ve ever heard.

[@mekiherring2088]

I'd probably relate more to him if he was black.

[@ScripulousFingore6133]

right. because no one ever likes black characters/s

[@mister_r447]

Is it though? It doesn't actually counter what the other person said. That if Hunter was black they would like them. All it does is call the other person racist, hardly a constructive argument.

[@ScripulousFingore6133]

@@mister_r447 yeah, its just so patheticly dishonest. She just saw a few instances of favoritism and called everyone racist without a second thought

[@disgustof-riley8338]

​@@ScripulousFingore6133 Everyone? No. People who favor Hunter over Luz to the point of removing her from the story in their fanfics? Yes

[@himbohaven]

Reminds me of how the TOH fandom made so much fanart/stories of Caleb Wittebane, the character who has zero lines and really doesn't add much to the story outside of his relation to philip/Belos, and yet he still seems to be given more personality than Gus who's part of the main cast and is also a POC unlike Caleb

[@LeavanDragon]

@Moolers Hunter is not a more interesting character LOL he's favored for arbitrary reasons. Poeple like him for what they think, not what he actually is

[@mikailaturkleson7472]

Yeah, TOHs white fav problem is heavily documented at this point. It got so bad that Amity and Eda were no longer the most egregious examples.

[@mekiherring2088]

and thats a problem how?

[@himbohaven]

@@mekiherring2088 A one-off character is given more personality and attention than characters in the MAIN cast (who also happen to be POC while the one-off character is not). Hope that helps!

[@mekiherring2088]

@@himbohaven i mean we can't feel emotionally attached to caleb or what philip did, if we don't know him, like belos killing his brother in show has the same weight of a edgelord in a dnd game who tells and not showing there tragic backstory

[@davidyouel8422]

Honestly Namona is my second favorite Pokemon rival because from my perspective she just really likes Pokemon battles... and both her themes are really good :)

[@Lily_Orchard]

She's so cringe, I love her

[@cratwane]

who's your first?

[@davidyouel8422]

@@cratwane Bianca/Cheren bc they actually have goals and motivations that aren't just due to their being plot devices and all the interactions with them are just fun

[@shinybearevidra]

​@@davidyouel8422I agree on both! Nemona is so enthusiastic it's impossible not to like her.

[@MommaDusk]

​@@Lily_Orchardsame. She is why I enjoy Scarlett so much.

[@erianda]

Not to mention the number of times the fandom goes GOO GOO over a literal genocidal monster just because white guy.

[@sodacan1415]

Can you post some examples and provide evidence said characters are only liked because "white guy"?

[@TheRegularHedgehog575]

I've seen someone actually unironically saying "hear me out" about Emperor Belos.

[@mekiherring2088]

@@TheRegularHedgehog575Look I love belos as a character and villian, I still see him for the piece of shit that he is

[@promethiada]

*cough, cough* Kylo Ren *cough, cough*

[@sodacan1415]

@@TheRegularHedgehog575 Not familiar with him. I do know that people tend to think villains are fun characters though.

[@GrantsGiftShop]

People who act like this cry about wanting more “complex female characters” then complain about a woman being unhappy that they were mistreated by a literal villain (a pasty white man who is hellspawn).

[@z.z.4752]

Sums up this game I’m playing where a lot of fandom focus is put towards these two adoptive brothers (one of of which is white and the other isn’t). While both of them had a hand in fucking up their brotherhood, guess which one gets no empathy from the fandom (and whoever defends him gets backlash) whenever that discussion comes up, on top of being mischaracterized as the more aggressive and reckless of the two despite being the one who thinks and strategizes his way out of danger

[@iregretmylifechoices5222]

Hmm… can I take a guess? Idk if I’m actually right. Genshin Impact????

[@z.z.4752]

@@iregretmylifechoices5222yep

[@z.z.4752]

Plus the fact that some fans’ way of empathizing with him is with super dehumanizing language (i.e. saying he’ll never be more than a traitor, sinner, monster etc)

[@revells1152]

​@@iregretmylifechoices5222i prefer Kayea ofer Diluc and i was thinking thats is normal thats people prefer him but idk i was in mistake

[@FutayuriShironeko]

Fandoms are dumb, I don't care what skin colour/sex/sexual preferences characters have as long as they are good characters.

[@AutumnBlaze689]

Exactly! I don’t really interact with any fandom I’m in, I just enjoy the show or game myself and just look at what people think while lurking. And I have seen quite a bit of dumb opinions.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

You're on a channel built on misandry and racism towards white men from a confused fatherless communist clown who is actively hating on white men. I think you do care. A lot.

[@mr.p215]

@@TheStraightestWhitest your description is pretty fitting, found the guy's hazbin hotel video and by the end this is the exact picture I have of him.

[@MisterOrange1]

@@AutumnBlaze689Same.

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

Idk appearance affects the story, I was a tall himbo with underboob shirts

[@benmcnally9935]

Speaking of Hop and Bede, me and my partner absolutely love Hop because it feels like while he still is a Pokemon character and doesn't get much character work it felt like he did have an arc with him struggling with feeling inadequate after consistently losing meanwhile Bede was an asshole who got made into Opal's pet project. Also great video Lily.

[@Xelpherpolis]

There's an argument to be made here on this topic but Astarion v. Hexxat just ain't it. On one hand we have a character who's been physically, emotionally and sexually abused for centuries to the point where he almost doesn't know how to think of himself as _not_ an object and has become power hungry because his experience with his abuser has taught him to associate power and callousness towards other people with the safety and freedom that he craves. On the other hand we have Hexxat who... I'm not even sure what there even _theoretically_ is to say about her aside from the fact that she's got a kickass design.

[@Lily_Orchard]

Astarion gets all of that. Badly. But he only gets it because he's a faupish white guy. The writers favour him. He has more dialogue than any other party member, and some of them combined. Hexxat gets an interesting character buried underneath mutiple racist and homophobic tropes and several party banters where multiple characters refer to her as "dark meat." And even buried underneath all of that she is STILL more interesting to talk to than fantasy Stewie Griffin. You can heap trauma onto Astarion, it won't change the fact that he's fucking boring and his only claim to being interesting is stealing ideas from Viconia and Imoen and calling it a day. When you're dumb and only look on the surface of a character, Astarion is good at LOOKING nuanced and interesting. The fact that most of his character is the worse version of three other characters requires thinking about characters beyond simping for them, and realizing that the simple fact of being a white guy means the writers favoured him the same way the fandom does. Neither Larian nor Beamdog are good at hiding this. And the reason I call Astarion a lesser Hexxat is because Hexxat managed to still be interesting in spite of working uphill with a rock tied to her ankles. Astarion gets all that story and focus and attention and still never manages to evolve beyond Goth Stewie Griffin.

[@jooasalmi730]

"Do red eyes and daaarling~...really do it for you???" Yes. Absolutely!

[@Lily_Orchard]

Weird kink but okay

[@pluv1e]

It's serendipitous that this came out right after the recent Splatfest. Racism & colorism are constantly present in any Nintendo fandom, but with Splatoon it's certainly an interesting case study on where white favoritism and fetishization intersect. The deal is that the pale, Japanese coded idol has had a five festival long winning streak over the span of seven months, the literal fish idol (who is also male) winning two, and the dark skinned Indian coded idol winning only one, and routinely receiving the least number of votes. People were quick to say that there wasn't any favoritism for Shiver when she won again in a landslide, but outside of the splatfest it is CLEAR she gets the most love, and I have no doubt its because she's a) pale, b) conventionally attractive, and c) Japanese (which is POC, but Japanese women are so relentlessly fetishized by alt-right racist weaboos that she's almost MORE attractive to favoritism than a white woman). Not to mention how Nintendo has treated their darker skinned characters in official art by CONSTANTLY lightening their skin, for what I assume is "marketability." If you want a jumpscare I'd recommend looking up the official Sanrio x Splatoon Marina plush.

[@Lily_Orchard]

*googles* Oh... what the fuck?!

[@alpha8here]

I searched, I saw and I cringed.

[@plumpkinpiecake]

D:

[@dryadkey]

​@@Lily_Orchard well at least you didn't saw the interviews with the Japanese fandom where they called Frye a monkey and a waste for big breasts, that was outright disgusting

[@danieladamczyk4024]

Yo, wtf??

[@HotNothin]

It’s insane to me how someone can become a whole fandom’s favorite character by doing absolutely nothing.

[@tonystonem9614]

Ppl will always be shallow and racist unfortunately 😭 even worse when they claim to be unaware of it and deny it as hard as they can

[@cratwane]

Also speaking of Invincible, people saying Amber is worse than Omni-man, the literal genocidal tyrant who said he would burn humanity to the ground for being too primitive. Lord knows he's gonna get a redemption arc.

[@cratwane]

@@thaddeusgenhelm8979 I'm guessing fandom will be much quicker to forgive him than Amber

[@arbitarious]

​@@thaddeusgenhelm8979yeah if he gets redeemed I'm getting violent

[@thaddeusgenhelm8979]

@@arbitarious Like, thematically, you do have to consider that he gave up conquering the planet for the Viltrumite empire basically because doing so would require him to kill his son, something he's *capable* of, in the physical sense, but *unwilling* to do. Given that this is a betrayal of the values of the empire and whatever, the fact that he's later cast in a less purely villainous light should probably not surprise you. How you feel about that handling, surprising or not, is certainly your decision/experience to have.

[@arbitarious]

@@thaddeusgenhelm8979 I guess it's just like, sorry or not, he killed so many innocent people and families and he should be soul farmed to revive them.

[@moni5620]

​@@thaddeusgenhelm8979 You acting like he didnt call his wife a pet in front of his son 😂😂😂😂 how does Omniman got so many fans

[@professorsimosuchus7954]

Now that lily mentioned it, even tho i don’t consider myself to have any racial prejudice, i feel like i subconciously do this as well, favoring the white character a little more than the others, eve though im not even white, i’m hispanic and was born and live in mexico, i just have a lot of contact with english-produced media, my theory is that years and years of white or white coded favoritism in media have conditioned (most of, i do belive they are people that do it on purpose) people to do this, and the people that cry out in outrage are the people who can’t handle their worldviews being questioned or are just reactionary and loud. It was a good thing it was pointed out, because i never did think about it, but now with this knowledge i can think more critically

[@metroidnerd9001]

Unconscious bias is definitely a very tricky issue to deal with. I’ve definitely learned a lot about it watching this channel, but I worry that the people who need to learn about it the most will get scared off from watching these videos because of how bluntly confrontational and sometimes hostile they are about the subject.

[@MisterOrange1]

At least you’re self aware to even admit it.

[@kelstitch868]

To add to a little more praise for Stitch because 1. Lily’s the reason that motivated me to and also introduced them through her good stuff vid years ago and 2. Their blog posts are so insightful and delicious in content. Back in late July I had a midterm in my online sociology course regarding contemporary media, I chose to write about how aversion to media criticism in fandom spaces online can be connected to a repurposed form of anti-intellectualism (with two images of comics featuring Catradora, serving as the vector example of fandom’s aggressive response to anti-Catradora critics pointing out how abusive it is). Stitch’s blog was the first place I went to for a citation to help with writing this midterm, and one particular quote really stuck with me that guided my direction with writing the rest of it. After submitting my midterm I had worried that what I written was too janky or that I had fumbled to connect fandom behaviour towards media criticism to anti-intellectualism. I ended up passing the midterm with full marks, and then went on to pass the course with a 100%. In conclusion Stitch is a wonderful, intelligent person who doesn’t deserve any of the doxing bullshit they’ve been getting, and I owe it to Lily for shedding a light on their work ❤

[@user-zz7cy1gc6v]

do they still have this post you citated?

[@kelstitch868]

@@user-zz7cy1gc6v I haven’t checked in a while but I believe so yes, the topic of the blog post I cited them from Stitch was about fandom racism, it was delivered in a podcast format that came attached with the exact dialogue exchanged from that discussion about it.

[@SamuraiDoggo14]

This is why i feel that you'd really like Total Drama, especially they new reboot season. 3 of most popular characters in the series are an asian woman, a hispanic guy, and a hispanic woman. Hell, in the reboot season, the best written character is not only a black guy, but a gay black guy. Yeah, a lot of the characters are based in teen stereotypes, but the characters are often so likeable that I barely notice after a while.

[@mysticwayfinder3578]

When you said he's teaching kids how to fight, I literally said "aww" with you.

[@Tuna-gu9un]

He is the best character in the entire game!!

[@krutyshikarandashi6463]

fr that explains so much why TOH fanbase drools over Alador while DARIUS AND CAMILLA ARE LITERALLY THERE

[@o-o857]

you just know this guy is absolutely exhausting to be around irl

[@Lily_Orchard]

I don't know about you, but I don't take work home with me.

[@AuroraExhale]

@@lordghetsisofficial spamming the comments is incredibly weird. You really should invest in a real hobby.

[@KG7Plaz]

I think Astarion and Wyll both have merits to their characters. Both were core members to my party and each one had a little moment at Moonrise that made me resonate with them. While i agree Wyll should get more love, i dont think that should discredit Astarion. (Spoilers for "Pale Elf quest") dude was a essentially a butler/sex slave for 200 years lets maybe ease up a bit.

[@vex080]

yeah that was kind of a weird criticism, i've seen lots of abuse victims and survivors symphatise and like astarion because of his story. Weird to downplay that tbh.. I honestly liked him the most because his story was the most i enjoyed and generally like more sarcastic characters

[@lordghetsisofficial]

yea there wasn't really much thought behind this lol

[@KG7Plaz]

@@lordghetsisofficial i don't disagree with any of her points in the video, I'm just not clear as to how it relates to Astarion, whom I believe doesn't fall into any of same categories as the characters she went in depth on.

[@renee1390]

I think it goes way deeper than that. Yes all of that, but why does Astarion have all of the backstory? Why did the writers all but admit that they especially put more effort into Astarion than the others? Also did you not finish the video? “If hunter was black, you wouldn’t” can directly translate to Wyll/Astarion. Wyll is a perfect archetype for a charming knight in shining armour and his backstory involves selling his body to a devil and being permanently altered/disabled, even. But he’s black.

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

Wyll was underwritten it seems like he needs Black writers who can view him as human lol wish he was hotter though

[@midnightflare9879]

Crazy fangirl are racist. And crazy fangirl in more nerdy fanbases are especially so. This is sort of an open secret. I'm more interested in why is this the case? If there something about fantasy that pulls in a bunch of racist chicks, or they become racist while interacting with the rest of the fandom.

[@Lily_Orchard]

Nerd Culture has generally been associated with white men and women for a long time, and nerd culture has an associated persecution complex with it. White nerds view fandom as "their" space and have tantrums when they have to share space with other people.

[@biecie]

6:10 ah, yes. Something similar happened in the Hunger games with Rue because readers read that Rue reminded Katniss of her sister and completely ignored how she was described as being a black girl. Until the movie came out and they felt "less sad" that she died.

[@chadnorris8257]

It may not really be relevant, but I remember Thor being fat in God of War: Ragnarok was contentious, even though Mimir called him a fat bastard in the first game. People gloss over what they want, if they have a certain image of someone beforehand.

[@TheIllusiveMan11]

This is kind of working off the assumption all the people who like the bland white characters are white. What about all the people of colour who like those characters?

[@Lily_Orchard]

I dunno, what do you say to someone who likes eating wallpaper paste?

[@TheIllusiveMan11]

@@Lily_Orchard So the answer is to insult them and assume they're stupid? Got it

[@Lily_Orchard]

@@TheIllusiveMan11 What else am I supposed to say to someone who likes a character with no personality?

[@TheIllusiveMan11]

@@Lily_Orchard Have you ever considered simply respecting their opinions and leaving it at that?

[@Lily_Orchard]

@TheIllusiveMan11 You asked the question

[@SkorpionDoorman]

One of the many reasons why Murder Drones is one of my favorite shows. All the characters are look-a-like robots with minor changes that identify them differently from each other and any Humans are always depicet as shadow-like entities meaning while we might hear an accent but we don't actually know what they look like. Meaning racists trying to prop up the white characters in a fanbase are dead outta luck and it's always fun to see when they try to do it with Murder Drones just to get constantly ratioed by fans quick to dismantle their statement to pieces... before quickly fighting amongst each other about ships again... Ugh...

[@user-zz7cy1gc6v]

what if they start drawing humanizations for drones? rasizm will find its way...

[@runajain5773]

It could emplied those all show which do not have human cast

[@ShadowRoadX]

Even just on a storytelling level, it reaches a point where you have to wonder how the hell they aren't flat out bored by fixating on the same damn archetypes over and over again. Like, as a white guy who grew up reading comics just before the advent of the internet, I wasn't even a teenager yet when the white-male-only power fantasies in most comics got stale for me. I wanted other perspectives, I wanted badass women who were more than just eye candy and stories that were more than just excuses for fight scenes. Having the same stories from the same perspectives on a never ending loop sounds like a death sentence in all honesty.

[@LWoodGaming]

Same reason why some people can play a game for 5000 hours without getting bored

[@ForOne814]

As a non-American, I legitimately don't understand how the main character's race can be a problem in itself, as in how can you be bored of the fact that the characters are white.

[@grandempressvicky6387]

​@@ForOne814because you're not American. You didn't live in a country that had a civil war over ending slavery that some people still haven't gotten over. I assume you don't live in a country where the nation wide institutional discrimination of those of different skin didn't last for at least 80 years after said war. You didn't live in a country that lynched people for looking at a white woman fro too long. Race for American is VERY different for everyone else.

[@ForOne814]

@@grandempressvicky6387 cool, doesn't answer my question.

[@Viod753]

"Arthas is viewed as a more complex character then he actually is because in the eyes of fandom as a white man *he has to be* ". Damn y'know everyone keeps talking about the "If Hunter was black you wouldn't like him" line and that one's great but this is the one that really got me!

[@jojijoker5737]

L + ratio + cry about it

[@Lily_Orchard]

L + Ratio + Get some sun

[@jojijoker5737]

@@Lily_Orchard lmao

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

You needed actual argument first, sunny.

[@Sapperbounded]

Iunno, I've seen a lot of critiques of Amber by now and most of them are in the vein of: "she's totally justified in not wanting to date Mark anymore for various reasons but the way they handled that was trash". She was generally speaking absolutely loved as a character until that reveal happened which completely recontextualized all of her actions in a stupid way, and if they had just rethought that she would go down as one of the best characters in the series. That said, there's plenty of people where it's obvious they don't like her cause she's black, but the vast majority love her, especially compared to her cardboard cutout comic counterpart. And I think nowadays people mostly agree that the shit lois pulls is toxic AF.

[@ultii4395]

Amber actively knew Mark was Invincible about 2-3 weeks before their break-up and she was angry that he didn't her sooner. I honestly think it would have worked a lot better if Amber didn't know about Mark being Invincible tbh. her response to him telling her when he thought. She also got mad and called him a coward for running off to turn switch into Invincible to deal with a threat that was actively near both Amber and Will. I overall understand her anger towards Mark and think its valid but i dislike that she knew and didn't tell Mark that she knew. I also didn't know that all of the depictions of Lois Lane jumped out of windows or off buildings for Clark to save her and prove her right.(sorry if my grammars bad) loved the vid.

[@ultii4395]

Also King and Luz are just balls of chaos and sunshine

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Doesn't help that one of many great things about the comics was specifically avoiding this trope like hell fire and did own, way more healthy, break up. What was also wild is whole Eve and William mocking Mark and "We both were lied" too which just shown how bad writers read the room, My Adventures with Superman actually had more subtlety and respect in showing how Lois trust issues made her relationships worse.

[@Oscar_Lasco]

So she knew but thought it would be more appropriate for him to come out by himself? And she was (justifiably) angry that he would waste time switching costumes when his friends were in mortal danger? Because he's got a bad sense of priority (revealing my identity and putting my friends in relative danger though they can still rely on my/the government's protection is apparently worse than my friends getting killed). I don't really see why would it be so irrational?

[@violeth2255]

@Oscar_Lasco Revealing one's secret identity to the public in order to save s small bit of time (gotta love super speed when costume changing) before protecting your loved ones is almost universally super short sighted. Yes, you put them at slightly less risk in the immediate situation. But now, anybody who wants leverage over your superhero identity or wants to hurt the otherwise nigh-invincible protector of the world knows exactly whom they can hold hostage or eliminate. And while you might be able to protect them when you can actively be around them, something tells me that requiring you be a necessary escort for the rest of their lives isn't a pleasant prospect to say the least. To utilize Lois Lane as an example, remember that the world of "Injustice" only comes to be because the Joker knows to target Lois while she's pregnant in order to break Superman.

[@violeth2255]

Really, the few Supers that can get away with publicly exposing their secret identity so nonchalantly are either so ludicrously OP that they can basically protect their loved ones from almost anything at all times no matter where they are on Earth, are so ludicrously rich that they can afford to pay to approximate that level of protection, or don't, in their own understanding, have any non-Super people in their life that they care about enough to be the targets of their enemies.

[@iamawesome4026]

I think there is a trope talking about how fandom think a character looks based on vague words and then the book actually says what they look like

[@edalynclawthorne5877]

This was a lot to take in, but yeah. I love finding it in Miraculous ladybug too. Adrien (male protagonist) ends up having a secret identical cousin, who physically has no character beyond edge boy [Draco Malfoy but hollow] an within the first episode he already had more avid fans awaiting his return and loosing their shits. To date he’s still one of the most beloved - even beyond Marinette the actual Chinese French female protagonist - yet also has no character beyond edgy and Uwu. Even the writers too, the big bad villain gets a last minute redemption and in universe praise for being a hero, with even his child (who he neglected and abused) being told to “think back on how much his dad loved him”, while the darker skinned Italian female protagonist gets characterised as a literal psychopath. same thing with the identical cousin. He betrays the heroes in the most crippling way to date in the show, but he was sad and confused so now he’s allowed to be a protagonist no questions asked. But another character (female, shocker) who was neglected and perpetually teetering between good and bad ( literally misguided) gets an almost pathological hatred by the creator.

[@cleveretortnotfound7869]

your acting like Adrian has any character beyond Sad white boy. and people only cared about Chloe "redemption" because she is white (In season 1 she was a one-note bully character and yet even then people wanted her reception or whatever) [seriously, i cant even think of how many fics 'redeem' her while making the black female-protagonist friend even worse]. Like ML is pretty much white favoritism turned up to 11. Show is flat out garbage.

[@edalynclawthorne5877]

@@cleveretortnotfound7869 I don’t think at any point I argued Adrien was anything more than a boring sad and white boy. He absolutely is. I was talking about his similarly one note cousin. As for Chloe’s redemption I specifically brought Chloe up on a comparison argument. I don’t really care for her much, however the problem was the way the series bent over backwards to give the big bad a full snap shot redemption, yet she got increasing vitriol from the writing room, turning said one note bully character into more and more vindictive, aggressive and vilified while Big Bad couldn’t go more than an episode or two without you being reminded just how sad he was. Also how the darker skinned Lila was from the get go characterised as a psychopath without a semblance of care. Finally I’m happy you brought up Alya cause I absolutely adore her. And yes, I agree the show is garbage, I don’t know how that didn’t get across in my original comment. I mean, the ‘love’ part was sarcasm if I wasn’t clear enough.

[@cleveretortnotfound7869]

@@edalynclawthorne5877 yeah totally fair.

[@user-lc4ux4ix1d]

we all know when lily watches miraculous ladybug we all know what lily's opinon on both adrien and felix

[@ConstantinDOSSOU-vy1zo]

Lol Miraculous is racist now ? Marinette always had the stupid plot armor , attention , love even if the story should be destroyed for it. Felix is popular because he is one of the few character who hasn't a total awful writing. People searching a new problem for nothing is the définition of masochist

[@nataliestafford1535]

I've already talked about OFMD here so I won't retread that ground, but I did think of another example: Nahyuta Sahdmadhi from Ace Attorney (Note I'm specifically referring to the English localization here). See, the main series has five main prosecutors who go through pretty much the same arc: Edgeworth, Franziska, Godot, Blackquill, and Nahyuta. And Nahyuta is the only one who people will vitriolically fucking hate. He's only boring at worst, but people act like he murdered their puppy or some shit. The other prosecutors get away with exactly the same things that he does, but he can't. It also doesn't help that Nahyuta is an abuse survivor, so there's plenty of disgusting fanfics where he gets brutally raped, tortured and/or murdered by his abuser. There's a difference between headcanoning him as a rape survivor and wanting to see him recover (which I admittedly do), and fucking gross disgusting shit like that. No I haven't read most of it, but I know it exists and that's enough. And why does this happen, you may ask? It's because Nahyuta is explicitly South Asian, while Edgeworth Franziska and Blackquill are either explicitly or easily read as white. Oh, and the one who gets the second most amount of unnecessary hate is Godot/Diego Armando who's Latino. Fuck I hate the internet sometimes.

[@SamuraiDoggo14]

Wait, I thought people loved Godot?

[@nataliestafford1535]

​@@SamuraiDoggo14 lots of people do love Godot. But certain other people are far more willing to be critical of him than the other prosecutors. Everyone goes off about Godot being misogynistic (which I didn't see but I very well could be missing the implications of his actions there), but young Edgeworth is also like that in Turnabout Beginnings and not nearly as many people bring that up. And they do it with Nahyuta too. Just a few days ago I saw someone complaining about Nahyuta being part of a corrupt system that condemns innocent people, which ignores the fact that A) he went into prosecutor work to change that but was abused into compliance to the point that he completely lost any hope of things getting better and B) every other prosecutor has done that too, including Edgeworth (whose arc is practically the same as Nahyuta's) and Blackquill the FALSELY CONVICTED CRIMINAL. But there's not even a peep about them. The double standard is so obvious it's honestly insane.

[@mister_r447]

"All other goldel guards rebeled that makes Hunter boring" is such a nonsense argument. Just because a character as some kind of Destiny doesn't make them boring.

[@ArtemisMoon90]

It does though. Someone having a destiny that they will/can not deviant from means they don't get to be a real character with real aspirations or goals. It's the difference between the original Zelda game verses Link to the Past. In the original Zelda you were an adventurer who is exploring the world because that's what you wanted to do. You went around and found items and defeated monsters not for some scripted quest but because it was fun. In a Link to the Past you follow a linear plot line for Zelda with a damn minimap telling you exactly where to go with quest givers telljng you what to do. You aren't exploring a new and exciting world, you're on a scripted tour. If your character has a destiny they must fulfill, it diminishes their agency as a person.

[@mister_r447]

@@ArtemisMoon90 No character has agency, they are puppets on a stage controlled by the writer. At best you are given the ilusion that they have agency. Even the original Zelda had a ultimate goal (defeat Ganon). What matters is the jorney to achive that goal and what comes after. Did anyone ever questioned whether or not Hunter would rebel against Belos (before Hollow mind)? No. But we wanted to see how it would play out, and we also wanted to see how he would adapt to the new status quo

[@ponygonporygon2153]

Watching this and remembering what I watched growing up made me so glad that twitter didn't exist back then. Like, remembering Static Shock and realizing that if it were made today it would not only get pilloried for being "woke" but sooo many people would hyper fixate on Hotstreak.

[@ThePotionMaster413]

I find it so funny that you uploaded this just after the community for a game called Splatoon lost their collective shit because during an in-game tournament the white character got over 56% of votes while the manta ray character got 27% and the indian character got a devastating 17%. 😬

[@skittyhugs7457]

She's not white, she's Japanese-coded, but your point still stands

[@cvcvdfetghgbbhg]

I never felt that Hunter was *unimportant* and I like him as a character, but I 100% agree that the Fandoms obsession not only with making AUs where he's the main character but Edric is his Amity make me physically ill! They literally found the two whitest characters they could find slapped them together on that principle alone despite the two NEVER so much as being in the same room as each other until the end of season 2.

[@majortightpants400]

Reminds me of the period drama, Turn: Washington's Spies (2014) where the male lead cheats on his wife with the female lead whose husband has been put on a British prison ship. The fandom reeked with misogynistic bullshit for well over 3-4 years until Gamergate and #MeToo suddenly made it unpopular to go on negative screeds about women. Then fandom decided that the male lead's wife and female lead were suddenly LESBIAN KWEENS!! despite the fact that the female lead's wife was only ever written as a passive aggressive, petty, shallow misogynist herself. (Which itself would've been interesting, I'm not here to say a character is garbage purely because they are meant to be disliked. The problem with the wife was that she was simply a PROP. She had potential and it was entirely wasted so she could be the Upstanding Citizen Mother Foil to the Disgraced Childless Adulteress.) The show constantly pitted her against the female lead despite the male lead emotionally blackmailing and using them BOTH and the fandom constantly vilified the female lead for being a "Mary Sue" because "all the men fall in love with her and she led them on." A. Her lingering romantic feelings for the male lead, who ghosted her after they'd gotten engaged to shack up with his brother's fiancee when his brother died, are not lEaDiNg someone on. B. The narrative is pretty damn clear that the male lead continuously manipulated the female lead's feelings for him to get his way, to the point that even his WIFE basically told her to go sleep with a British officer who had been creeping on the female lead for two seasons, just so he MIGHT go get the dumbass male lead out of prison. It's fucking disgusting. I started to like the wife in S3 where her character arc seemed to be "resigned to a fate of being married to a man who doesn't love me, but fiercely determined to protect him and our son no matter what side of the war I end up on." She wasn't just a prop foil for the female lead anymore, she became a multidimensional character in her own right... and then they never went anywhere with it, threw it all out in S4 by having the wife suddenly bring up a 3-years-passed adultery that the female lead--NOT the husband--broke away from. She then emotionally manipulated her husband's childhood best friend who was struggling with severe PTSD and alcohol withdrawal to go risk his life for her dipshit husband. I was still kind of hoping she'd turn around but that act and fandom's reaction to it made me sick to my stomach. In this case though, I will admit, all the characters are white, and it's more or less a case of the "Saint" vs "Sl*t" tropes that the fandom bought, hook line and sinker. And then it was apparently decided they never wanted to own up to it once it was no longer mainstream acceptable to loudly complain about The Other Woman Leading Men On. I've wanted to write video essays on this crap but the show isn't/wasn't popular enough to wade into that nightmare, but oh boy, is it rant-worthy. EDIT: Fun fact! Several friends and I were stalked and harassed online just for politely discussing this amongst ourselves over the course of 2 years. After a point I stopped giving a shit and started calling out the ringleader directly before just ignoring them wholesale. If anyone read this far: Lily ain't lying, people will go batshit bonkers over crap like this and it is VILE.

[@earendilthemariner4691]

I watched the show years after it ended, so I didn't know about this discourse on the characters though I am unfortunately not surprised. I felt SO BAD for Anna, like dealing with Simcoe was hard to watch, but it was especially bad when she got involved with Hewlett (who surprisingly became my 2nd favorite character aside from John Andre) and basically got blackmailed into leading him on. This show made me look into the real life spy ring and yeah they added this whole love triangle just for the show, something I do not understand in the slightest.

[@majortightpants400]

@@earendilthemariner4691 Anna got it SO BAD from literally every angle and I feel like the only people in her life who weren't Complete Idiots (aside from Hewlett) were Caleb and... sometimes Ben lol. It hurt me that she did seem to care about Hewlett enough to be happy to marry him and happy to go to Scotland with him and it burns me that people in fandom were just like UMMM MARY SUE!!!!!! like... my guys... a socially disgraced and conventionally attractive married woman who's connected to wealth is like, prime target for men to creep on, there's nothing "uwu mary sue uwu" about it and even if it was, it just came across like total victim-blaming. And then the fandom just completely ignored Mary's toxicity to the point that I ended up hating her a lot more than I otherwise probably would've! Yeah, as a big 18th century history nerd, Turn is a total accuracy shitshow. But I love(d) it because of the genuine talent and effort of the actors and screenwriters (and SOME of the writers). Apparently the showrunners had a huge hard-on for Abe and that's why the show was so hellbent on focusing on him and not, yanno, Ben and the literal spy stuff. I'll forever be pissed they didn't address Nathan Hale properly, and the most egregious was Abigail getting sidelined. I saw the premiere of the finale and I WEPT when she got put back in chains--everyone in fandom was going NUTS at the time, but we found out from the writers on Twitter that Abby stole that gun and escaped to Canada and lived a good life with Akinbode and Cicero. And I'm like, WHY WOULD Y'ALL MAKE THAT A DELETED SCENE???? THE HELL. Anyway enough rambling from me lol

[@FatalFrameAlchemist]

*me out here playing Baldur's Gate 3 and romancing Wyll* It helps that I'm playing a Tiefling character and he's introduced by defending the lives of other Tieflings. And he's a sweet and honorable guy trying to help everyday folks.

[@sailormermaidix24]

One thing that gets me is the thirst over Draco Malfloy gets and people having sympathy for him and constantly shipping him with Hermione, DESPITE knowing full well that he's a pure blood supremacist, joined a Wizard Nazi party and then called her a racial slur MULTIPLE TIMES and never apologized nor saw the error of his ways. I had to check my friends who had the hots for him by taking that scenario by making him as a Neo-Nazi or KKK upholding white supremacist beliefs and then degrading but having the hots for a Jewish or BiPoC girl. You'll see how utterly gross that is. Of course some tried to deflect.

[@holyrandomness5654]

Honestly, that’s one of the reasons their dynamic is so interesting together. As an avid reader of this ship.

[@chrisdiokno5600]

I mean, Hunter and especially Asterion are far from boring

[@blacksesamecandies]

They are "bad" because they are male and not POC, basically. Even tho Hunter is played by a black man and Astarion is played by a gay man, they aren't they 'right' type of diversity. OFC Slyvanas is paraded on this channel as the BESTEST WRITTEN CHARACTER EVER when her story is absolute dogshit thanks to Blizzard's mismanagement. Imagine defending Slyvanas' writing while dimissing actual good writing in favor cuz she's idk a white woman elf with rage? Yea Arthas made her kill people, but it wasn't tortured and repeated rape for centuries like what Astarion endured. Or being born again and again,groomed then tested,abused, tormented and killed like Hunter endured. It's contrarian brownie-point grubbing, that's all this is.

[@chrisdiokno5600]

@@blacksesamecandies Yeah Sylvanas is fine, but far not as well written

[@audreyharris7643]

​@@blacksesamecandiesI'm sure arthas and sylvannas has or had good writing And people aren't just popping up one and hating the other for no reason

[@momofphil]

It was really interesting to not have the usual “give me money” skit, which I want to be clear I do find funny still despite seeing it a dozen or so times, but on the other hand learning about Stitch was well worth the sacrifice. Checking them out asap, thank you

[@andenvelez7142]

Another banger video, loving it like always. Keep doing it well bud.❤

[@TheUnholyLordClownz]

Why you gotta do my boy AsmondGold like that 😂 4:18

[@jewelqueenwrite]

that bit about fandom effort for white characters in comparison to nonwhite characters really got me because it feels like as time goes on, people know this is a pattern yet routinely get shut down when it gets pointed out, kinda with goncharov where tumblr made up a fictional movie starring fictional white people and tumblr users acted like it was some revolutionary act of creativity when it’s just another reminder that fandom is willing to create any excuse imaginable to not emphasize with anyone who isn’t white

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

Centrists lash out at progressives because they’re apathetic selfish and lazy 🤷

[@user-sn8gu9tx4c]

I'd argue the problem isn't just with fandom, it's really a problem with the media itself. Too many of the examples you listed are characters where all of the focus, "intrigue", or depth is handed to white guys, or really anything emotionally engaging or that can tug at the heartstrings. The POC characters end up getting left on the backburner or serve as benchwarmers. Hunter wasn't just popular because he was white, he was ALSO popular because he's a sad boy blorbo tumblr fanfic character who's tortured and betrayed and innocent all along. He exists solely to be a victim, and fandom loves that. Combined with a design that sticks out among the cast (scarred, a neat haircut, red eyes, a mask and cloak), it's no wonder TOH's fans liked him. I agree that fandom is biased towards white male characters, but one can't just expect POC characters to just instantly be popular. They actually NEED to be cool, interesting, and entertaining (if not better overall than their white predecessors). Fandom never really had a problem with Katara from ATLA or Anne from Amphibia and that's because they were interesting and sympathetic (at worst, ATLA fans hated her for being "bitchy" but that was a small minority and even then, it was rooted in misogyny more than outright racism). If Gus was going to be popular in the first place, he needed a cool design and a better personality all around, because as it stands, he's pretty boring. Yes, Amity and Hunter both are pretty boring themselves, but they still have fandom-bait cooked into them, and that will always gain popularity over a POC character lacking fandom-bait, whether Amity or Hunter were white or not. For as much as fandom sucks, where's the examination on creators for failing POC characters in the first place?

[@Lily_Orchard]

Thanks for demonstrating the way fandom makes shit up.

[@Lily_Orchard]

@@tobiasthehawk4028 The problem is these characters are NOT more fleshed out. I'm not talking about white male characters who are well written and fleshed out, I'm talking about white male characters who AREN'T

[@user-pi8pi3wj7h]

So you're basically trying to imply that the real issue is that poc characters just aren't cool enough to compete. Yeah this is pure bullshit. First of all, Gus IS COOL. He has so much development and an entire episode about how powerful he is as an illusionist. Two technically. And you don't get to decide that he doesn't look cool, because to me as a black kid he meant everything. And yet he still gets overlooked in favor of someone as bland as Hunter. Or take Wyll from Bg3, he is given an entire introduction cinematic and has one of the more interesting backstories. He even gets badass devil horns. And yet he is still overlooked for the generic wizard and vampire? Stop strawmanning this video. Lily wasn't talking about how poc characters can be sidelined in favor of their white counterparts from a media/narrative perspective. This video is about the fandom response. And implying that poc characters and creators just aren't trying hard enough is disgusting. We shouldn't need to do backflips and tap dance for appreciation. Our characters don't need to fulfill fan favorite fandom tropes just to deserve to be seen.

[@user-pi8pi3wj7h]

​@@user-sn8gu9tx4cif the point you wanted to make was that there are many sides to this problem, fine, and I agree. But that's not what the video was about, so you're just talking to a different audience rn

[@hinata1ize]

​@@Pinkie-Dash Dana KNEW she had limited time and CHOSE to write episodes that barely did anything to advance the plot, had long drawn out moping, and several episodes doing NOTHING to advance the characters. So we cannot put the lack of development squarely on Disney

[@gab.bee123]

i could write about my experience with fandom racism and how infuriating it is in everything from kids cartoons to major blockbusters, but this planet wouldn't last long enough for me to finish. just... the literal audacity and entitlement people express over white characters who just be standing there -- like they don't even need to have a place in the plot, homie could just he standing next to someone in a scene and suddenly you can't escape them in fanon and they have stans and etc.

[@bradleyharris774]

Both Hop and Bede are pretty much nothing characters but of the two Hop was definitely more compelling and had some semblance of a believable character arc. Meanwhile, I groaned every time Bede was on screen. Suffice to say I was not surprised to see online discourse revolving how much a "deep" and "complex" character Bede is and how he's pretty much Opal's adoptive grandson or some shit. Meanwhile with Hop, crickets at best, absolute scorn and hatred at worst. I really fucking hate fandom discourse.

[@Puggers22]

Uhh really, I think it's just opinions. Some people don't like the friendly rivals and like the ones that are mean Like Bede, Silver and Blue. However some people do like Hop and his little arc he has. Do you really thing most people care about what race a character is, I mean maybe some are just racist, but not everyone, some people simply just like the character.

[@TheRusty]

Wait, the BG3 fanbase is "gaga over Astarion"? I must be in different circles becasue all I see is googly-eyes over the tiefling with a V8 engine installed in her chest.

[@Lily_Orchard]

I see both in equal measure

[@leviHeichou]

I see more about Astarion so I would say it is about the same. But I also see a lot of people who hate him and kill him on the spot so I think the relationship is pretty much always love or hate to the bone and nothing inbetween. Either people love him or find him insufferable. I never read "decent" like I did on other characters.

[@bobherse1997]

I wasn't expecting the robot wars reference. That's a happy suprise

[@Milan-ul2xg]

this channel honestly made me re-evaluate how i view and criticize media and for what reason i do so, and im really glad it did.

[@fi-fithedestroyer5871]

Dr. Eli Vance from Half-Life 2 is one of the most compelling characters in all of fiction, his relationship with his daughter Alyx is so touching and tragic and his character arc about his guilt for dooming humanity and his efforts to fight for their freedom has so much to say about Hope & Compassion and has active parallels to real-world Anti-Colonial figures like Nelson Mandela, Rajendra Prasad and Patrice Lumumba. and Gordon Freeman has a crowbar. Guess which one people talk about more.

[@Netheferious]

Well to be fair, the player attaches themselves to Gordon Freeman, since he is by design a blank slate. Eli is definitely my favorite character in the Half Life universe though.

[@lordghetsisofficial]

dude gordon is the main character of course people talk about him more 😭😭

[@lordghetsisofficial]

how do you feel about the fact that astarion's actor has been given awards for his amazing performance? it must be *so* devastating. keep coping

[@Lily_Orchard]

Good for him. I've never put the blame on the VA for how a character is written.

[@matildakeith9575]

The clone trooper joke had me pissing my pants

[@RSMario128]

It's odd that she uses the MCU as an example when Wanda is one of the most popular characters in the MCU, Wanda kinda shatters this whole narrative!

[@zakai-kaz]

Yeah it’s not like Wanda Isn’t white passing or even just straight up played by a white women in the mcu 😒

[@brittanyhoward1741]

As someone who's been a fan of Voltron and still is despite its flaws, I can confidently say that if the showrunners/writers had made Allura into a white girl like most of her iterations, she would have not been vilified as badly as she was.

[@treeturtle3114]

Love the battle bots reference

[@s1b3r11]

Calling Astarion boring is basically "tell me you're not objective without telling me you are not objective". Honestly, where does the hate stem from? Is it because he is a white man? It seems to be an obvious answer considering how you immediately presented Wyll as this supposedly superior and great character. Wyll, who is a standard uncomplicated fairy tale prince with no flaws - a concept utilized in fiction since the beginning of humanity. Astarion is a breath of fresh air in the industry and no, not because he is "white" but because how extremely complex and humane he is. White man characters can be written well too... but there is no point in arguing and you seem too salty and prejudiced for any further discussion.

[@mathewhaight]

Interesting points, but I think some more citation would help hammer those home. I absolutely believe you on the response some people had to different characters, because that's how people are. The problem is that because I do not hang around a lot of these fandoms, I have no real point of reference for where some of these specific points are coming from. Since you have screenshots of text people have made talking about other people's responses, it would probably balance it out by having screenshots of the text from those people being talked about.

[@Lily_Orchard]

The problem is that opens people up for harassment

[@mathewhaight]

@@Lily_Orchard Understandable. I should have specified blurring out names or any identifying information.

[@Lily_Orchard]

@@mathewhaight Given that I'm talking about a widespread systemic issue, singling out individuals is counterproductive. Also I'm not enough of a drama hoarder for that.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Good intention, but I think them speaking from experience is fine, tho I disagree on Amber somewhat, tho I agree that Amber being black is what allowed for people go hell fire.

[@GHoST2130]

PEOPLE LIKED BEDE?!

[@Lily_Orchard]

PEOPLE LOVED BEDE

[@lupisvolk2420]

Colour me shocked, I hated the punk and LOVED Hop.

[@WizardClass6638]

In the Macrocosm of the Mark & Amber relationship. I think it's important to recognize that it's the depiction of a unworkable high school relationship between students who aren't even 21 yet. Yeah girls like Amber would be demanding everything from their boyfriends. Revealing your Superhero identity is tantamount to showing off your Social security information, FR. And the High School Guys, frikkin kids, don't have experience with romantic relationships. Initially the relationship Mark had with Amber in the comics was different but I kinda missed the reason why they broke up but it ended alright. While I guess the creators decided to emphasize that Mark and Amber are not suitable for each other, reasons above and Mark will do better with someone else in the later seasons.

[@ongoingsky9347]

Thanks for recommending Stitch. Amazing content.

[@AGhostInTheCorner]

While I'm not super big into movie/TV/gaming fandoms anymore, I always love your videos and can relate the topics to the communities I am in, like art communities. I've seen creators with bigger, longer art careers than my own and in their entire body of work depicting beautifully drawn people, not one POC. One creator who I followed for years has 6 years of worth of Instagram posts and not one artwork depicting a not white person. She even made a how-to-paint skin in watercolor tutorial and the only two skintones she showed were super pasty white lady and tan white lady. Once I realized this I made it something I look for in an artist before I follow them. I'm white, but as someone who draws people I draw different races of people. Any artist who draws people should be able to depict people of different races especially a professional artist with a long career.

[@ahmadhadi177]

What do you think of Mohammed Agbadi's video on 'These Twitter Artists fixed Genshin Impact by making them black'?

[@AGhostInTheCorner]

@@ahmadhadi177 I haven't seen that video but it sounds interesting. I'll give it a watch and circle back.

[@AGhostInTheCorner]

​@ahmadhadi177 Hello, I just watched the video you recommended and I agree with the overall message the creator gave. While I've never played Genshin, I've definitely heard about its art and aesthetic. I've also seen the trend to 'fix' various characters from different media by swapping the race. I don't think that is the answer to address diversity issues in media. It is up to the developers of the game to make the changes and I want to see representation in interesting, well-thought-out characters that are made to have their skintone from the jump, not slapped on later as an attempt to make peace with Twitter. Even still, I think it is odd to have a game with dozens or even hundreds of characters in it and like 98% of the characters are very pale. It is odd to see a massive body of artistic work of human characters and more than 90% of that body of work only depicts very very pale characters. This is especially true in games with an anime look that uses the same face and eye-model for a lot of characters. That means that the only way to tell characters apart are the costume, hair, and height. That creates a lack of diversity in, not only a representational sense, but also in a visual sense. Genshin has chosen to remedy this issue by creating incredibly complex costumes for the characters but I think they should absolutely create more dark-skinned characters for their roster.

[@ahmadhadi177]

@@AGhostInTheCorner You don't entirely agree with him,don't you?That's what I felt after watching his video.

[@AGhostInTheCorner]

@@ahmadhadi177 Yeah that's correct. I agree somewhat but not fully. I think the people demanding more representation have a point, but all of the 'fixing' art can go too far. We need to find a better way to convince big developers and artists to create more diverse casts for representation, visual appeal, cultural admiration, etc...

[@ChrisBCrexm]

This video served! I loved the "If Hunter was black, you wouldn't part." Couldn't stand Hunter being elevated so high later in TOH. I also loved the Lois part, MAwS was my first DC media I watched (solely for Clark's redesign, I'm very gay) and that scene sparked so much talk I was shocked to learn so much about Superman's story hitting the same beats every Superman story does.

[@shen5220]

Good video, thank you Lily ❤

[@arbitarious]

Thank you. You always cover the best topics. Even if you get flak for it.

[@th3d3storoy3r]

Wasn't expecting a robot wars reference lmao

[@ideapressproductions1864]

Hello! Never heard of this show but judging by the Hypno-Disk I need to watch it immediately. How do I do that? Thank you in advance!

[@Lily_Orchard]

kzbin.info/aero/PLyn3O8HHbjOdWcpfDBXFQfGuHVAdA027k

[@ideapressproductions1864]

@@Lily_Orchard Sweet!! Thank you so much, I'll work my way through this! 👏👏

[@Sunset_Sassier]

2:21 The discourse surrounding Wyll has always felt weird to me; I've seen the community criticize him for being "boring" or "annoying". It seemed odd, but it made think back to the point you made on fandom's tendency for double standards in the "Maturity isn't Morally Grey" video In addition, I was a little surprised at him being tortured/permanently disfigured on-screen (for the doing the right thing, no less), while the other companions get off relatively scot-free Do you think this could be another instance of a black character being treated more harshly than the rest of the cast? I'd love to know your thoughts, Lily! Hope you have a good week 🙏

[@Lily_Orchard]

Describing a black character as "boring" or "annoying" with no other qualifiers is just a polite way to say the N word.

[@valh7808]

I think people describing Wyll as "boring" kind of miss out in a big part of his character. Admitedly, his design is a bit bland at the very start of the game. He is the stock standart hero with stalwart morals and ideals about heroism. But all of that is meant to decieve you because later on you learn of Who he gets his powers from and (if you decide not to kill Karlach) he gets a rather significant visual change. I think the conflict of him wanting to use his powers for good but also being bound in a contract with a malicious entity that is constantly trying to get him to use them for evil is really compelling.

[@magickgeminid2944]

they literally call the dude who's first scene is swashbuckling his way down a hill, through a pack of goblins boring? and yet Gale is right there? Both characters are remarkably similar, yet its Wyll who's "Boring."

[@julianfischer6404]

If Wyll is boring, everybody of BG3 is if you want to be honest. Cause he is one of the characters that have more going for him in the story. At least more than Astarion and Minthara and Halsin. This is my biggest gripe with Larian. While they can write great stories, they cannot write characters if their life depends on them. That was why I despised Divinity Original Sin 2 and most of the companions there. The characters where just so bland (and in this story they railroaded you too. At least BG3 has a bit more freedom). In BG3 there is no character that really stands out where I say: Yes they are great or fun to bounce off too No Dorian, Sera, Cassandra and Varrick like in DAI, no Piper, Nick Valentine or Preston (yes I think Preston was decent, fight me) like in Fallout 4. Not even a Seelah, Aivu, Daeran or Regill like in Wrath of the Righteous. Astarion is a wannabe-mixture of Hexxat and Daeran which doesn't commit to either paths and therefore is worse than both of them. Shadowheart is your trope redeemable "I am really evil, trust me" goth girl that was already dated in Dragon Age Origins that most straight people are horny about. Gale is a living Trope done to death. Mage that it a living time bomb through curse, expermient etc. I have seen at least in three more games. Lae'zel was just all over herself the entire time as the writers were fiddling around who has to write her (we all can see that she was just shifted from one to another because it was difficult to write her for them. Just make her a more in tone Invader Zim-type of Person and you have the character you want) For Karlach you can see that they took one of the first drafts as they rushed her in because they needed another companion. Decent character but no milage around her as they shoehorned her in shortly before the release. That is why they are already tearing the plotholes around her apart. Like what about Raphaels place, doesn't Baldurs Gate have a great smith that could help her in the lore, Wish spell, Divine help, why does Dark Urge who is arguable an amnesiac Jack the Ripper a second chance for Jergal but she has to die and keep the engine. Okay. I now kinda lost the plot. But yeah. Larian has issues with characters. Their stories are rather clear cut and it is ok. But none of the characters have the charme or splendor of characters that I had felt in other games.

[@rafaelcastor2089]

I have a hard time considering Wyll my favorite when Karlach exists, but he is definitely the close #2 and in regards to the character story he definitely has the more interesting one between the two.

[@Tourettes42069]

Hypno disk… ok hold on i’ll be back

[@DingDongDozo]

When Lily said Stitch I thought she wasn't going to bring up some kind of on topic thing about Lilo & Stitch.

[@MoeMoe-ft7wj]

Fandoms also have an all-or-nothing mentality as well, which can make stating who's your fav a slog to get through. I didn't really need to explain to most people why I liked certain white characters in most shows or games but when I immediately got attached to characters such as Hobie Brown from Spiderverse and Avery from Scarlet Hollow, I was super disappointed to find people drooling over or obsessing over lighter skinned characters. I also got asked why I liked them when I didn't have to for any white characters I loved, which felt odd because it was really no bigger than, I liked them and their smaller stories and traits were things that I grew attached to. Even if you do like Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3, which I do since this is the first time I'm playing a BG game and I enjoy having him around immensely as a favorite, that doesn't mean Wyll is any less good or a special part of that game that I enjoy. I love Wyll and he's got a tough story to complete because I kept trying to save him from all the bad things that happened to him and was heartbroken any time that failed. The term best boy or best girl has become an especially heated topic in fandom, especially anime, to the point that having a favorite in the first place automatically is seen as devaluing everyone else. We have plenty of good characters in the game that deserve equal gushing. Wyll is a great character and deserves more love, that's why even if he's not my favorite, I prop him up in conversations because he just doesn't get that while Astarion doesn't need that, so I mostly just leave that alone unless someone directly asks me.

[@blueripper1558]

Honestly i only use astarian instead of wyll because my part was full and i couldnt be bother to swap people around so i just enjoyed bullying and talked evil with astarian plus free picklocking

[@acuriouself]

When talking about Teen Wolf you would swear Scott McCall either didn't exist or was a supporting character to Stiles or Derek. And the TVD fandom is very male centric, specifically the villians while not allowing the same grace and empathy to female villians, characters that actually have development like Tyler Lockwood, who like Scott is a white character portrayed by a POC actor. I don't even want to talk about Bonnie Bennett.

[@Archive224]

The only come thing I would have to say is that big bang, though has some good parts to it, has some very cruel content regarding women, gay, trans, and non white characters. The issues brought up are just as prevalent in that show. That is not excuse to harass creator with racism and xenophobia and people will do this because they will take any excuse to unleash their hatred as long as it’s seen as appropriate, “karma” as they see it :\

[@CoolDude-ku4if]

On the topic of BG3 do you have any favorites in terms of party members?

[@Lily_Orchard]

No, I find them all pretty boring. The new ones are stock characters, and the returning characters have had their personalities butchered.

[@brutalnapkin1055]

I'm glad you bought up Astarian and Will because I was originally going to romance Shadowheart, just cause she was in my party first, but i had to romance Wyll cause I loved his character so much.

[@toffeeFairy]

I just have a thing for vampires ... i find it weird when others suddenly love them aswell, when they make fun of me liking them tho? usually the white i used to own slaves kind of vampire ..... i got weird looks for not liking hunter instantly, it got me real confused.

[@j0r04]

Another one with Pokémon is how fans treat Iris vs how they treat Misty. Misty was arguably far more aggressive with Ash than Iris ever was and even hit him at times. All Iris really did was make comments about Ash being "such a kid" and she gets labeled as a mean brat. Yeah it's hypocritical since Iris is a kid too but that's the joke guys. Plus, fans have been ragging on Ash for his incompetence since the start of the series and have said way, way harsher things about him than Iris. But when a character in-show does the same in more lighthearted teasing manner they're upset?

[@SManime101]

You pretty much summed up every fandom in history basically. Every time a show or series gets popular, it's always the white "angsty" guy that the fandom drools over, meanwhile the women and black/dark skin characters are put at the bottom barrel. I have to look out and beyond just to get some decent fanarts of these type of characters meanwhile the fanart for the white poster guy can be seen one every single twitter strolling up. It's exhausting and annoying and god bless your soul if you nitpick the fandom favorite.

[@AviciPerry]

I’m seeing this right now in our flag means death with the character izzy hands. He’s supposed to have a “redemption arc” and it’s obvious the way fandom fawns over him simply because he’s one of the only white characters in the cast that acts the most cishet that he’s gonna get a redemption arc while skipping the arc. If he was played by a POC actor his character wouldn’t have the same popularity

[@AviciPerry]

He also has the less characterization out of all the cast only serving as an antagonistic force and basically the personification of one of the main character’s toxic masculinity (blackbeard/Edward teach). The fandom literally made up characterization of izzy that we don’t see anywhere in canon to make him less of a sack of shite and justify shipping him with the gay couple he’s been tormenting for the entire season

[@pumpkinwarrior7138]

Wyll doesn’t wear locs, he has cornrows which are braided while locs are not generally

[@Lily_Orchard]

Someone else pointed that out earlier, I'm so sorry.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

The fact the one time people were screaming about Lois doing jump move was when she was non-white is also what I noticed, especially it was bizarre when MWAS, unlike other versions of Lois, actually gave reasons for why she would go for that move and later the show actually examines how her trust issues damages her relationships, a new thing as far as i can see. I hate Invincible adaptation for many reasons and while I think Amber was destroyed with single line of "I knew for weeks", I mostly don't understand why they didn't go for original comic route which avoided that trope like hell fire and which shown how relationship can break up due to circumstances while keeping it healthy.

[@LilithFangAxO]

Lena Luthor from Supergirls has the same reaction as every Lois Lane or worse because they made them just "best friends" for not being man or woman and yes, Lena has so much hate for that

[@aurorafauna4195]

Did anyone else think Bede was an old woman with that puffer coat?

[@aurabearer9731]

I... er... to be fair, all BG3 companions are meant to be ridiculous, as if a party was really making it really hard on a DM? I want to be a vampire! I want to have been a legendary hero that hunted demons! I want to have fucked the very god of magic! BG3 is a weird case on itself, but I guess as a study on the fandom rather than the game itself... doesn't help that I just want to fuck the bear, so anything else romantic/fandom flew over my head anyways xD As another note on Wyll, doesn't help that he seemingly was meant to look generic, to the point he wears the same clothes a Warlock Tav wears... and well, you find out later why his design has... space for change

[@Lily_Orchard]

That's not being fair at all. That's being too generous. The BG2 characters are ridiculous. The likes of Minsc, Jan, Korgan, Imoen and Yoshimo were already plenty ridiculous. BG3 characters are like they were made by someone who thinks "snarky" is a personality trait.

[@bleakautomaton4808]

Anyone LIKED Bede? That actually surprises me.

[@jhondoe1116]

maybe the reason that there are so many of these specific types of characters is because they were pretty much the standard for a long long time. So i guess when things change people are quick to point it out and or ridicule it. Pretty shit imo but i don't think it's particularly racist, maybe it's just people vibing with the fact that these nothing characters can be whatever they imagine. Though knowing how vast the internet is, there could probably be a number of racists in those crowds. Good video! wish yall well!

[@soniyashi]

no words can describe how much i agree w/ ya. Except Amber. i just never liked her character in general. i also called every iteration of lois jumping a ''psychopath.'' But, the rest was dead on. i really hate how gus got shafted even further when hunter joined the group, and this is from somebody who doesn't like him much.

[@chadnorris8257]

I didn't realize how often Lois Lane was manipulative towards superman. Never watched the live action stuff. I did watch a video review about Amber, which boiled down to her crying about him abandoning her, while later admitting she knew he was a superhero. Meaning she knew he didn't actually abandon her, but acted like it was a betrayal anyway. As for Lois, jumping off a ledge to make the local superhero possibly expose himself to the city should be grounds for putting her on suicide watch. I haven't played a lot of Baldur's Gate 3, but I remember switching Astarion out when the swashbuckler showed up, because I don't like people who pull knives on me. Granted, the Githyanki woman did too, but that was a different situation, and I feel like I'm gonna need her.