Fans Are FURIOUS About This Marvel Secret Lair

[@rinmathews9337]

Who could have predicted this, except everyone?

[@Medowokha-bp5lq]

It's by design, I don't even have a business degree and I can almost hear the repetitive harpings on brand equity, value created, successful strategy...

[@Volkbrecht]

@@Medowokha-bp5lq The question is: for how long? Brand equity goes in tandem with customer satisfaction. Pile up too much adversity, and people will walk away.

[@Medowokha-bp5lq]

@@Volkbrecht Depends where the thermocline is and we won't know till it's far far far too late. Trust is close to impossible to earn back after burning it

[@SilverAlex92]

@@Medowokha-bp5lq I mean sure, but isnt it better to like print ten times more product, leave the thing open to buy for the entire day, and show exactly all that but with 10x the profit? Like this was a secret lair that was going to be sold out one way or the other. Its a mix of some of the most iconic marvel character with some of the most playable commander staples.

[@Medowokha-bp5lq]

@@SilverAlex92 Depends, I assume wotc is trying to bill mtg as premium and thinks scarcity and secondary market value creates value for the brand. What business majors don't understand is each little change they do to quality and price adds up. Perfect example is McDonalds, they tried to bill themselves as premium, with premium prices, during a time of scarcity. This caused people to just stop going and fortunately for them they didn't breach the thermocline of trust. They stopped and are reverting seemingly just in time to avoid massive brand death.

[@PauperRulesCommittee]

Let the scalpers pour money into it and then just proxy the fucking cards. Screw both WotC and the scalpers.

[@shmackydoo]

This is the solution, we hafta take this game outta the hands of the profiteers

[@anthonydelfino6171]

honestly... this was my answer to his "what do you want me to do!?" question about the debacle I get it, if you want the cards, go for it. But if you're generally opposed to the secret lair proliferation, don't be part of the problem and proxy them

[@enoesiw]

Look, I'm all for proxies. I proxy a shitton of cards, I even buy nice fancy proxies because I just love art and playing with a proxy that makes people go "what set is that from?!" And then getting to tell them it's a proxy which then gets them to buy proxies fills my heart with joy. But it's still nice to actually *own* the cards. I own many copies of proxy Jeweled Lotus (because the proxy art for that card is off the hinges) but the actual copy i pulled is still my favorite card that I've pulled in recent memory. So much so that I got it signed at MC Vegas, post ban. So yes, proxy the stuff you can't or won't get. But know that there are a lot of people who do want to own the actual copy and respect their desire.

[@TheSpellcaztr]

How many Pleasant Kanobis' are there compared to you PauperRulesCommittee. WOTC is not the problem at this point imo

[@shuttlecrossing7084]

@@TheSpellcaztr Yes they are. Of course they are.

[@SarithenVol]

I miss Print to Order. This “limited availability” bullshit is why I didn’t bother. I still haven’t finished my Doctor Who deck due to not having the Doctors and Companion from that Secret Lair.

[@PleasantKenobi]

It blows.

[@richardsmith9615]

They cater to speculators and "Collectors(Scalpers)" and forget about the game itself.

[@SarithenVol]

@PleasantKenobi, especially since these Secret Lairs have mechanically unique cards. I could buy the singles but the prices of them are so high that I would save money buying sealed secondhand. Until Wizards fixes its Secret Lair printing process back to Made to Order, all of my hobby money is going into Warhammer: The Old World so I can finish off my Warriors of Chaos. At least Warhammer minis that I need to play The Old World with aren’t limited, and any special stuff for that game goes on Made to Order with a window of time and 180 days max shipping time.

[@zapcuno8271]

the doctor who lair was print to demand

[@Volkbrecht]

The funny part is that "print to order" had effectively eliminated most scalpers. There was no point in hoarding Secret Lairs because the target audience for the most part was able to get what they liked. Now they are back in the game, because they can count on actual consumers not getting served.

[@JoshLitch]

Hmmm. That's rough for you guys. I only had to wait a couple minutes for my printer to finish the 12 pages I ordered.

[@Areinu]

Imagine staying in the queue for 4 hours 30 minutes, getting trough it to get into empty store. Then learning that people found loopholes to cheat the queue. Some joined 1 hour early, by putting Ghostbusters into the cart and queuing for that. Part of the reason why you had 1h+ long queue even if you joined 1 second after the release. Then, people found how to skip the queue and get directly into the checkout page by manipulating URL. So if you were waiting nicely in the queue your queue time was going UP, not DOWN. And yes, I got nothing, and I'm salty AF.

[@caseywellington4761]

Wow, I didn't realize that the website was also such shoddy workmanship that it allowed cheaters to cheat!

[@chadaycock6437]

This was similar to my experience. I have purchased many Secret Lairs, but now I am done. I arrived early, followed their rules, and still lost out; being stuck in queue that went nowhere for 4.5 hours. Fuck WotC and their Secret Lairs.

[@ChimneyCrab737]

He was part of the problem, he contributed to it by passing around the link that allowed people to skip, that's just disgusting

[@NikoWasTakenBruh]

@@caseywellington4761 It's worse than you think. More than a few people waited, never had their progress move, and then found out that it kicked them out of their account so they had to re-queue.

[@Volkbrecht]

I don't even try any more. WotC's message is as clear as can be: this product is not for me. The kind of customer who likes to think for a day or two about their purchases, and who don't change their schedule to acommodate a very limited time availability of a non-essential product.

[@TehFoamy]

If I’m an investor/shareholder in a Hasbro meeting and they say “we sold out hella fast, demand is huge,” my first response is going to be “okay, so why did you leave so much money on the table by not printing more to *accommodate* that demand?” and then watch them stutter

[@ACircusAstheLens]

No, that's not how shareholders look at it. They stop at being told that it sold out. That's the point. It's done this way more to entice investors than to just entice other IPs like he said.

[@medea27]

​@@ACircusAstheLens Actually they're right on the money... investors & shareholders care about _volume_ rather than exclusivity. WoTC/Hasbro already has problematic financials, so there is absolutely no room for Cox & Co to start creating artificial scarcity for product lines that there is provable demand for. You don't improve _ANY_ business' profitability (and therefore, share value) by leaving money on the table, so if you say "sold out" to a shareholder they're going to ask "what's your strategy to capitalise on unfulfilled demand?"

[@TheEvolver311]

​@@medea27 Magic has artificial scarcity designed directly into the game. The fact that they were doing print to demand and reverted back to limited run should say this was a calculated and open marketing strategy.

[@Threeve703]

If this was a strategy that did not satisfy investors, WOTC wouldn't use it.

[@antoniodittman5820]

Hilarious to watch people talk about what stakeholders care about and ignoring the fact that if thats what they cared about this would have changed. As PK pointed out theres nuance to why they do this, and the difference in revenue with PTO vs LR does not outweigh the equity of saying "it always sells out" to future collaborators. They very definitely have weighed the pros and cons from a financial perspective and found this is their best bet, and it wont change until there is a massive dip in consumer interest and they feel obligated to chanye in gear of not selling out a UB run and losing the equity that it offers them.

[@eXJonSnow]

Yo-ho, its proxy time until WotC gets their heads out of their asses

[@JB-sc3fr]

I thought while waiting in que.. why give wizards 250 usd for foils... I eventually saw the signet was sold out. I left que and if I want it, it Will be affordable proxy. Rather buy food than expensive cardboard

[@eXJonSnow]

@ made the decision a while back to proxy most cars that are above $5 and especially scummy shit like limited print secret lairs. I started work on a Captain America deck after it was spoilered and about 1/2 the deck is proxies, including the commander

[@Ian-vq3qe]

Exactly what I did. I actually used the link to skip the cart after I saw it sold out and was gonna buy pixel perfect and storm but decided I'll proxy a playset for $25 lol​@@JB-sc3fr

[@TheSickjits]

@@eXJonSnow this is the way. Going to proxy everything above 1 dollar from now on. They are just manipulating the secondary market at this point and people are still supporting.

[@Omnicrom]

A friend of mine was really excited for that Captain America secret lair. Naturally he didn't get it. So, instead of being allowed to give money to Wizards of the Coast he has chosen instead to make a proxy alternate version of it that's Simon Belmont. A UB of a UB if you will, and wizards won't be getting a cent in the process. It almost seems like artificially limiting a super hot product didn't actually bring any positive benefits to wizards.

[@chrispynation5133]

Youre friend is a genius. I would rather have simon belmont over caprain america

[@haydar8364]

For a second I thought your friend’s name was Simon Belmont

[@bencheevers6693]

No you're wrong, they sell multiple times more copies when it's limited release vs print to order, print to order means speculators won't snap up 10 or 20, they aren't good investments, like the days of secret lairs gaining value is over, they are so generic now, they're trying to get the most amount out of all the revenue streams and this set is a speculators dream so they went that route rather than print to order which would have gotten way less sales. Edit: For reference there are more than a thousand secret lair cards, cards are being crept all the time, there are so many special versions of everything that nothing stands out, there's no collect ability in modern magic, nothing from like 2000 onwards is on a positive trajectory and as a whole the whales and lifelong magic players I see that have tens of the thousands in magic cards lose thousands every year in depreciation. This year's special card will just blend into a sea of similar generic things in a couple years. In fact, I won a prerelease for bloomburrow got a gilded lumra and it was 280 USD but it's dropped to like 150, it might be true that this months special cards will blend into a sea of similar in only months now. The lottery aspect of magic is burning out and that's going to impact the company severely, if that kills magic or greatly reduces it's popularity then all your cards are going to crater. Based on everything we've seen about how they're going about it, like 3 SL a year, 6 sets a year, chase cards in every set to sell collectors, it seems like they're trying to extract everything they can as quickly as they can, it seems like a crash is coming.

[@Omnicrom]

@@bencheevers6693 A real pity that doing it this way keeps the people who want to play the cards from playing the cards. I have no idea if artificially limiting the supply made more sales, that sounds like BS to me, but even if it was true I know at least 6 people at my FLGS including my friend who wanted cards and weren't able to get them. The plural of "Anecdote" certainly isn't the same as "Data", but that's at minimum about 300 dollars WOTC didn't get. Also, I don't give a single fraction of a crap about "collectibility" and "depreciation". People splitting hairs over that is why there are scalpers selling Marvel SLs for 300 bucks as we speak.

[@beerman2000]

9:05am - Item in basket, in queue waiting 2pm: My turn. My cart is now empty because everything in it had sold out, but at least I made it to the front of the line...

[@prufrock1977]

And other people found a back door workaround, and got through in minutes. That whole thing was a sham.

[@garryame4008]

Yes, the purchase process is anti consumer, but that was by design. This was the expected and desired outcome. This was a display for investors, at the expense of players. Regardless of that, I'm still beyond pissed that they are selling mechanically unique cards this way. If it already wasn't clear before, WotC does not give a single fk about you.

[@refundreplay]

How exactly do the investors make money if people can't buy product? Please help me understand.

[@garryame4008]

@@refundreplay This indicates demand for upcoming Marvel MTG products, as well as a strong demand for MTG or Secret Lair products in general. It's good marketing for the stock, especially since it is being widely reported

[@the_knut]

​@@refundreplaytheres two parts. 1- Performance reviews showing complete sellout is used as a datapoint to show appetite for the products. 2- Secondary Market is important to their business model. And by catering to scalpers over players, it increases the rate that they reach internal milestones.

[@88porpoise]

​@@refundreplayYou know what all these stories of people missing out are going to do to the fear of missing out on the next drop? They have probably just pumped demand up for the next one and got a ton of people talking.

[@petrri323]

THIS! I wouldn't have any issue if they were just functional reprints like they did for cards like Karakas in the LotR set. But having unique mechanics gatekept behind literally HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS is absurd.

[@Keck282]

Throw the entire Secret Lair system in the bin

[@ItsMrPea]

Throw the entire game in the bin at this point.

[@delailama736]

@@ItsMrPea You go first.

[@shrouded8797]

If the whole thing is messed up anyways, and you hate it so much, and it's so anti-consumer... Why NOT proxy? Edit: If you ACTUALLY want things to change, then you need to vote with your wallet.

[@TrashCanCass]

Here's a reasonably sane idea: Limited run Foil Secret Lairs. Print to Demand non-Foil Secret Lairs. Wizards'll still make insane profits. This allows "certain people" can still have their race to grab the Foils while everyone else can still get what they want via non-Foils.

[@mattjones2811]

none of it should be limited, the system itself is flawless

[@Mischievous_Moth]

@@mattjones2811 Did you mean to say "Flawed"?

[@CptnFunbags]

Came here to say this. Also - if they do have a promo, limit to one per purchase. If only they had a tracking number for actual players to identify them, so they could help ensure players got the cool stuff…

[@cherry9787]

​@@CptnFunbags Bot army, here I come

[@marcoottina654]

​@@CptnFunbagsand then, a person using "10MinutesMail" join the chat wearing 10'000 different faces, therefore buying 10'000 copies for itself

[@Grimlong]

Frothing at the gash. My wife is going to hate you for adding that one to my vocabulary.

[@PleasantKenobi]

Please tell her I apologise in advance.

[@MegaMetal96]

This is why canesten was invented

[@N3gativeR3FLUX]

​@@MegaMetal96 🤣 I knew someone wouldn't be able to resist going there...

[@Greg501-]

Meanwhile I was proxying these cards and not caring about availability.

[@damianstrain9911]

Like he said though, sometimes you just want the real thing. More power to people that proxy but for some it's just not the preferred way. Much like online isn't the same as paper.

[@NikoWasTakenBruh]

I very much wanted at least 2 sets, but the jump in price just didn't make it worth it to scoop up more than one, cause it IS nice to have the real thing. But the rest of them? Well, it's not a bad time to start the proxy life, I guess.

[@damianstrain9911]

@@NikoWasTakenBruh Honestly it's only 4 cards Im interested in, but only "need" 2 I like having special art for my commanders so Storm and Cap Ill just snag up later. I preordered an omnath at higher than it currently is so Ill give it a week or so after they start going out

[@lukewhitehouse4103]

@@damianstrain9911 MPPC will literally print the exact artwork on the same card stock in the guise of "play test" card

[@BlueGriffin20]

True, but you can also A, have proxies until you do get a real version. B. When it’s a limited print and not everyone can get a copy, why not proxie it?

[@Xaxzorn]

I had to wake up at 4 AM JUST TO HAVE A CHANCE TO GIVE THEM MONEY. I really wanted the product, and that is THE ONLY reason I even considered doing this shit. The whole experience was horrible.

[@cherry9787]

I'm so sorry that WOTC doesn't give a fuck about anyone that's not American

[@malachicook3321]

I was up at three cause I thought the drop was at 4 but I was wrong stayed up to go to the que and get booted 2 times 😢

[@BryanG-r5x]

I absolutly agree with you, I was a little late logging in the queue ( 11 am CST ) however the only thing that was sold out was the arcane signet. I get in the queue and the card I wanted to purchase was available ( Storm ). Picked the card I wanted, went to my cart and tried to check out. On their site it specifically said that I had the product and I'm just waiting to check out. 2 hours later, I get to the check out page and there's nothing. It's absurd to mislead consumers by saying, "You have the product you are just waiting to check out," and then ... nothing.

[@haofabs]

If I were a collaborator and heard that it sold out in 3 hours I would ask why they didn't produce more. They could easily have sold 10 times as many. They are actively denying me money as collaborator.

[@Omnicrom]

Ah, but you are a person with sense and business acumen. This is quite a bit different from the clueless MBAs who perpetually Chase growth into a ditch.

[@bearrington2024]

Its how he described, they know "we sold X units" is highly dependent on the IP being considered, but low printing and going "we sold out of the last 10 secret lairs" sounds better. For the truly big IPs, they can make a set of decks or a whole set.

[@N3gativeR3FLUX]

This. Make sure the collaborators know they missed out on even more money.

[@dankenstein528]

Proxying is now morally correct and anyone against proxying these cards is not someone worth playing with and should be openly mocked.

[@N3gativeR3FLUX]

Have some new rule zero discussion. Secret lair proxies are now legal. Real secret lairs are banned from the pod. Call it the "Scalper Tears" rule.

[@refundreplay]

If you let them continue abusing you, they will continue abusing you. Ever heard of Sorcery: Contested Realms? Great game.

[@whoissyx]

Personally im pretty excited at the return of Warlord in the first half of 2025...never got to get into it and now I'll have the chance to do so...since WotC have made me apathetic to magic

[@CHEFPKR]

I just wanted foil storm. Storm is my favorite Xman. 2 hours in a que at 9am , denied foils. Ebay has dozens and dozens of listenings for 3x the price. Probably my last secret lair purchase. I love secret lairs to collect. This method sucks.

[@ChimneyCrab737]

Part of the issue was creators like this guy giving people links to skip queue, people who actually got there early lost their chances because these creators shared links and exploits, its genuinly disgusting behaviour

[@cherry9787]

​@@ChimneyCrab737 I disagree. His mentality was "I can help people". This is WOTC's fault for having a terrible system

[@ChimneyCrab737]

@@cherry9787 but it harmed more members of the community than it helped? I dont understand how you can have a such a selfish view of it

[@cherry9787]

@@ChimneyCrab737 I don't really see how that's selfish. Being selfish would've been keeping it to yourself, but the secret was out anyway. Was it the right decision? Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know how many people in his audience used the link nor many people this negatively impacted. Regardless, Kenobi spread the link so people wouldn't have to sit for 4 hours in queue. The same link several thousands of other people already had access to.

[@ChimneyCrab737]

@@cherry9787 the 4 hour wait wouldnt have happened (or wouldn't have been as prominent) if there werent people skipping, several thousands had it, and kenobi took part in its spreading, it is entirely reasonable to call him out on that, its disgusting, a single scalper/big buyer getting that link would have lost hundreds of people the chance to get cards they want, explain how that is benefiting the community or how it maybe or maybe isnt the right thing to do

[@trident042]

Say it with me lads: Proxy Every Card They Won't Sell

[@adoo765]

i got 1 better: stop buying shit so they stop this market practices

[@pokemaniac333]

PECTWS ...rolls right off the tongue

[@trident042]

I said come, on, pectuhwuhs, I said come on pahectuwuhuhs everybody to the limit my deck is to the limit everybody comeon PECTWS

[@Chaosweaver667]

Proxy every card

[@trident042]

@Chaosweaver667 So, look. On the one hand, sure. If it is your preference, go for it. But know that it doesn't support the game, any LGS, or online marketplace you might enjoy to do so. As an example, I want the FF set, next year. I want it a lot. I want WotC to know I want it, I want CardKingdom to know I want it. I plan to buy it a ton. But if they aren't gonna let me buy a SL drop without trying to make the FOMO window? There's ways around that.

[@p45yourfired3]

As a British person I personally like to queue for no reason.......

[@bradjones9784]

Anyone who didn't expect this to go exactly the way it did was delusional.

[@nunchucker]

Proxies are always print to order

[@mgfox]

Can't wait to buy proxies of these cards for a few bucks ...

[@janmelantu7490]

You don’t need to buy proxies, you can literally just print it out at home or a public library

[@Chaosweaver667]

​@@janmelantu7490Not if you want the card to feel realistic when you play with it.

[@Hyper88]

Proxy everything or play on tabletop simulator. Never had an issue with those options in my playgroup

[@ladyer0n199]

Stop buying stuff directly from wotc! Two of my friends who play magic proxy all of their cards now.

[@martinheraud1744]

Quick question: can we agree secret lair is just official proxy? So that means proxying them is OK

[@jonlangthorne7924]

Why do you need a justification to proxy? That’s over-capitalist thinking and the company does not care about you. If you want access to it and can print a proxy you should do so.

[@martinheraud1744]

@jonlangthorne7924 it's not the company I care about it's the players I play with

[@jonlangthorne7924]

@@martinheraud1744 Very fair, some players are needlessly resistant to proxies. What is their issue with it? I would say as long as you’re not doing to print a bunch of high power things it shouldn’t really be a problem. And if they don’t like cards that aren’t official, I like to compare MTG to chess for this argument. If your friends are richer than you does this mean you start a game of chess with no knights or rooks or no queen? Everyone should have access to the game pieces they want to play with, regardless of their situation.

[@martinheraud1744]

@@jonlangthorne7924 I agree and I recently proxied a deck for the first time. But I feel like proxies tend to up the power level of a deck if you don't pay attention. You have to choose to restrain yourself and not everyone does that

[@jonlangthorne7924]

@ It can be a problem when you have access all the sweets in the shop that you may end up with a sore stomach. If you’re building for fun and add a couple of good cards in to help you along there is no harm in that but stomping your friends just because you can defeats the spirit of commander. Adding a staple or two or a reserve card in is perfectly fine if it’s on theme. E.g. I have a Serra’s Sanctum in my shrines deck and in low power games I just declare it as a basic plains. I wish you luck and hope you can convince your playgroup.

[@elliecccg7791]

"i hate this so much ill buy it anyway"

[@John.JAnderson]

Most magic influencers and content creators unfortunately.

[@shanonkallhoff2431]

If print to demand was a more expensive process why are the prices higher now? ..... o.0

[@cherry9787]

Bc there are less cards. Also scalpers

[@shanonkallhoff2431]

The real point is the CONSUMERS would rather have print to demand at likely the same cost and their excuses fall flat with the more expensive prices now. Customers happy or company alienating buyers.

[@cherry9787]

@@shanonkallhoff2431 They don't care. Shareholders matter more.

[@LucasBuilds]

Mouse Tax, at least in this case

[@sathrielsatanson666]

Because they need to make more money. Savings are benefiting the company, while customers share only thw increasing costs 😊

[@ajones0916]

We magic fans are such lemmings, we will never vote with our wallet and thus Wizards will never change. All hail our corporate overlords!

[@WashedHands223]

Wizards has Magic players by the balls. The players will complain up and down about Wotc, the game, UB, etc etc and then still wait in 4hr lines for overpriced cardboard. And afterwards repeat the same process. It’s almost like other card games don’t exist or something like that.

[@F0r3v3rT0m0rr0w]

i quit years ago, i only watch content to laugh at how bad its getting *that and i do still enjoy commander clash*

[@megapussi]

Plenty of people are voting with their wallets; the reasonable people who were never going to blow insane money on the game in the first place. The scalpers and whales, aka the only people that wotc actually care about, have a much larger vote because they have more money to throw at the game than someone like me. It doesn't matter if me and 20 other casual consumers vote with our wallet and walk away, if a scalper spends over twice as much as we all would've combined. "Voting with your wallet" is an obviously flawed concept when some people have bigger wallets than others. Wotc doesn't care about appealing to the largest number of people, they care about aquiring the largest volume of sales. Doesn't matter if those sales go to a million people or just one, whatever gets them their bag is what they will do.

[@LouisKing995]

@@megapussiIt’s still better than buying the product and complaining about it. Complaining by itself does absolutely nothing.

[@Saylin021]

Wow. What a surprise. Who could've seen this coming. But lets stay oPtImiSTiC

[@Sekeeth]

Yeah, sharing that link was a dick move. You can justify it all you want but it just hurt the innocent people in que (a lot of which watch your channel).

[@davidjohnson9186]

So the CEO of Hasbro bragged on a recent earnings call that these kinds of things sell out fast. Isn’t that a sign that they’re bad at business? Why would they brag about leaving money on the table? This is the kind of thing that gives people with MBAs a bad rap.

[@felipeguidolin1055]

You create artificial scarcity, and them you can charge a premium price. If something is readily available, people are less willing to pay up.

[@enoesiw]

​@@felipeguidolin1055and i think this was the case. If I had to bet, I'd say they were making less money on the print-to-demand than they make from scalpers trying to play the secondary market.

[@davidjohnson9186]

@ they only charged $10 more. Seems like they could’ve easily made more on volume than what they made via that premium, even after printing costs. The faster they sell out, the worse it is since there could’ve been that many more sales.

[@salgigante]

limited print is not good, sure i had to wait almost a year for a SL to be shipped (Tomb Raider), at least i got it and not be missing out cause bots made by scalpers that make Runescape bots look dumb beat me to it

[@ChimneyCrab737]

Creators like this guy sharing around links to people for exploits made the situation even worse, its shameful behaviour and he should be embarrassed to admit he took part in doing it

[@dannybrez]

No card should be strictly limited to secret lair, reprints yes, new cards? I'll make my own copies thanks...

[@DerekScottBland]

And now they've gone back on their word to make functional reprints of SL cards because "the boosters we said they'd be in don't exist anymore." Fuck WotC. I still got in queue because my wife absolutely loves Storm and the artist that did the card, so I had to get it for her. Put the all foil bundle in my cart immediately at noon when it went on sale, promptly got thrown into an hour plus wait. Then 6 minutes later the site crashed and I was left wondering if I was knocked out of line. Took over 2 hours, but I finally got my all foil bundle... I think. Yeah, they charged my card, but when they did that Advent Calendar thing they charged my card and then a week later said "oh fuck, we oversold, here's your money back, no compensation for your trouble."

[@adderous]

Maybe the artist is selling prints? Not sure if the contact allowed that but I feel like I've seen some doing it.

[@Aldrnari956]

I didn’t appreciate how lucky I was in being able to actually make it through the line. I was able to keep my phone out while at work and just kind of kept an eye on it for the hours I was in line. I did get the foil bundle I intended to buy, but I didn’t realize that the arcane signet was sold out, and I didn’t realize people had found a work around waiting in the line. I was ready to deal with the damn scalpers possibly buggering over everyone, but I didn’t expect WotC to be so incompetent that the line would be a line. I’m just glad I got the one bundle I wanted to get and didn’t get screwed over like too many other people did.

[@The_Grimsun]

Commander is a casual game. Proxy everything lads. I know it feels shitty, and there is a dumb stigmatism around it, but fact is for 5 bucks at your local print shop you can print an entire commander deck. Want secret lair versions of card, great, print them. Hey I get paying wizards for cards, dont get me wrong. But if you want a Storm commander deck, right now you physically can't buy that card from WOTC. So proxy it. Don't pay ridiculous scalper prices for a single card that is worth the same 10c it takes them to print any other card. Its disgusting how MTG has gone from a game that was about fun and playing with your cards, to a collector sport where ever card has to be triple sleeved just to play with it. Where tons of cards are $50+ and staples to even playing casually. If WOTC doesn't want to reprint cards, and doesn't want to make products that you can buy without having to wait in a 4hr que and praying you get the chance to buy, then don't buy them. And I get it, we all have our guilty pleasures, but don't feel pressured into buying things just because the company in charge is messing with your feelings to force purchases. PROXY PROXY PROXY.

[@benbullock3954]

My experience was that once I finally got in, it showed nothing in my cart. After a while, I felt like my only choice was to reload and see what happened. Still nothing. I figured it was over. When I went to the Secret Lair front page, it showed what was in my cart. Maybe I'll get lucky and be able to buy it? Then it was a cycle of me logging in, trying to check out and then the site logging me out. I did this about 5 times (I even tried to check out as a guest) and then it FINALLY let me buy what I wanted. Strangely I never got put back in the queue. After that, I decided to keep checking to see if it had sold out and I was able to put things in my cart multiple times without being put back in the queue. I had no desire to buy more, but I could have.... I feel that I got VERY lucky and I feel bad that so many people got hosed due to WotCs fumbles and ludicrous model for selling these now.

[@CaptainMonkey16]

I’m from Australia, and I offered to buy the secret lairs for my play group this time round. I could’ve allowed for up to an hour, but when you’ve stayed awake all night as it is easier then waking up at 4:00 am. I had to stay awake till 7:30 before I could try to go to bed. Also couldn’t get the order I wanted as things kept going out of stock as I was trying to checkout.

[@opag78]

I think WotC can remedy this situation. They simply need to announce quite quickly that they are going to do a second print run. They know exactly the demand and they simply need to negotiate another license with Disney(it will be a hefty price, no doubt, but the printing costs Cents, so it will always be profitable). In this case WotC can send a very strong signal to the market. First, fans are welcome. Second, scalpers are not. Done. They, themselves, then simply need to count the millions of extra profit coming in. Me, personally, I was attempting to join the queue at 6min after the start. Then I could not login. Then I waited for almost 4 hours just to get the message that my cart was empty ..

[@bearrington2024]

But WotC needs scalpers to buy their product, so they can flip it and show the "value" of the brand.... Like, scalpers are the literal perfect customer for them. They buy up all the stock (sell out of everything) and because of the flipping/scalping, the cards stay high priced (brand value). It just needs a constant supply of -addicts- gamers to feed the scalpers.

[@FlibTheBard]

Friendly reminder that there is nothing unethical about proxying

[@devinloew7681]

Im convinced you made this video beforehand and then released it after the drop. That's what I would have done. I told my friend, "I'm looking forward to all the videos about the drop more than the drop itself." I didn't bother trying, I didn't want to be disappointed

[@zztzgza]

Like lambs to a slaughter, ya'll got in line and fed the beast. If you don't want limited print runs to continue quit getting in line and buying the limited print items. Don't be a hypocrite. Have some principle.

[@DerekScottBland]

You're really ignorant to reality, aren't you? This might work for a small pool of a hundred people. When it's world wide, there are enough people that do not care, and will buy anyway. So not buying achieves nothing. WotC knows this. Now you do also.

[@refundreplay]

"Capitalism bad. I'm going to buy the new shinies." -Average Redditurd

[@zztzgza]

​@@DerekScottBland who r u calling ignorant? This is how you stop this behavior by hasbro and wotc. Do u think that regular people that play magic casually or enjoy marvel movies just for fun are buying secret lairs? No. Secret lairs target the online fanbases, the people that are engaged with these properties on a deeper level than casual enjoyers, aka fans. The best way to fight scalpers or any anti-consumer practice by any company is to not engage with the practice. Don't buy limited run products. Don't buy from scalpers. You are thinking in the short term. Long term you will affect the company and its practices. They will lose money when you disengage with the fomo. Scalpers will stop scalping when they see that they won't make a profit off of buying the product. You have to start small with this type of movement. If you can get fans to disengage or ignore secret lair releases, they can then spread the practice through word of mouth to others. That's how effective movements work. You may be ignorant to that, and that's fine. I'm far from ignorant. I know what I'm talking about. You can disagree but, what I'm talking about has been proven throughout history.

[@zztzgza]

@@DerekScottBland The only ignorant people to reality is you and anyone that liked your reply. What I explained is how reality works. It's worked that way throughout history. stay ignorant.

[@ORiOh4582]

@DerekScottBland "there's no reason to vote with your wallet that doesn't work (it does) just buy product and get excited for next product"

[@TheSpellcaztr]

At least you Vincent is honest with himself in recognizing his "mild" hypocrisy. Everyone is both complaining but still BUYING the things. This will NOT change while consumers continue to sell out these shit deals WITHIN HOURS! It's wild to watch how this company gets people to clamor over cardboard lol! To the even more insane suckers that will buy these on the secondary market...You are the problem, not WOTC

[@sathrielsatanson666]

I mean, of you are a horrible person, you realize it and you keep being a horrible person you get no cookies for self-awareness.

[@Khalenx]

I loved Magic for so many years (I have more than 30 commander decks), but they discussed me so much that I won't buy a card if they don't fix there mess anytime soon. They probably don't care, but I don't want to contribute to that anymore. They don't deserve it.

[@OsirisLocke]

This outcome and UB direction are the same phenomenon. They want us at Walmart trampling each other over cards like Pokemon scalpers.

[@shaedeymamlas5496]

Funny thing being, there were at least two different exploits that I am aware of to "cheat" at the queue. There is an exploit you could do to start queuing around half an hour to an hour early by adding the pixel secret lair to your cart, starting the checkout process, and while mid-queue, open a second tab with the same account, and add the marvel secret lair once it becomes available. Mind you, getting half an hour-1 hour headstart is already a disaster, but there was also a second exploit where someone datamined the link to the final purchase. If, with a secret lair-marvel of your choice, or all of them for that matter in your cart and in queue, you were to click said link on another tab, you could just skip the queue process entirely. Am aware of a bunch of scalpers who used this method instead

[@envies_ephemeres]

I feel like we can literally copy and past our responses after every release at this point.

[@joelowdon1615]

Maybe they'll give people a damaged Markov Manor sheet as an apology

[@Toasty25000]

*Karlov

[@joelowdon1615]

@Toasty25000 it doesn't matter

[@Toasty25000]

@@joelowdon1615 Correct

[@BradleyAshley]

The whole system is a fucking disgrace and I agree with your final thoughts - predatory behaviours deserve to be criticized heavily. Thanks for the Aus shoutout, it's a fucking disgrace.

[@TheArcbound]

3:30 - 4:01. It just sucks to see so many people's enjoyment for (insert non-magic property here) overwrite their morals on these business practices. People knew this wouldn't be print to demand, people KNEW this would be a shitshow - and yet they still lined up to the teets. It's hard to empathize with these viewpoints - even when they're right - when people won't be the change they want to see. People need to start voting with their wallet or this will never change. I've never bought a secret lair and never will.

[@elliecccg7791]

i dont play mtg. im heavily invested in yugioh and pokemon tcg. ive been considering plsying for a while and i watch your videos, the professor, command zone and others. things like this, magic 30, and especially the new universes beyond format in mainsets is preventing me from getting into it. although i have some bloomburrow cards:) liked that

[@adoo765]

leave ygo while you can, join us at MTG you dont have to buy this UB crap if you dont want to, fun is on the game not the purchase, and there's still a lot of it

[@Niedomysm]

6:05 I never thought about this. This makes so much sense to help "The Consumer" when no one has been happy with this. We aren't the Customer, the customer is other IPS to collaborate with

[@axiswolfstar]

I place my order in the cart, and internet issues, and while I’m queue got to see everything I want get sold out.

[@jamesc.7216]

At this point I'd rather just pay the 2 American Freedom Dollars each for the proxies.

[@felipeguidolin1055]

Complaining is meaningles if you guys are fightning tooth and nail for the opportunity to throw cash at Wizards!!!

[@adoo765]

And they (the suckers buying this garbage) will NEVER understand that.

[@KarimJovian]

Same I waited for 2 hours I got in early about to check out and it kicked me to the line 3 times and I was suppose to get an arcane signet and ended up getting nothing

[@bookerplayer01]

Mmm, manufactured fomo. Glad I hate all this UB stuff.

[@adoo765]

i did not hated UB at first because it was ignorable but after the standard spider man set got anounced....

[@LiterallyMyst]

Who's ready to proxy every set moving forward? 🤚

[@jmcomparan]

The solution is so easy, it’s literally in their face; limited print until stock runs out, rewarding those first in line, then print to demand to the people who “weren’t fast enough”. Automatic best of both worlds

[@leadpaintchips9461]

But that doesn't appease the speculators who view MtG as a financial investment.

[@leonardwisniewski3418]

It appears the cheat code to getting a good place in line was to put another lair in your cart before the start time. I was buying a few of the other lairs that are currently up. I added them at around 11:30am Eastern time. Not counting the Pause, it took me about an hour to get through the line. It did log me out right before switching me over to the checkout page. However, it pick right up when I logged back in.

[@lewispatton6550]

I'm starting the really think about getting out of this hobby.

[@AaronOneal-e7h]

If you don't play Commander then that choice should have already been made for you years ago.

[@paultuck]

I strongly recommend this move. I quit 6 years ago, EDH on youtube is my only interaction with MTG. Things like this make me feel like I made a very good decision.

[@KidGamingFTW]

Do we not remember the first mythic edition bundle years ago. I was in line minute 1, and it was fucking terrible. It was a school norning too. Dogshit

[@alchadylan4592]

Sat in queue for almost 5 hours and didn't get anything because it was sold out. Wish I knew about the queue skip bug

[@ChimneyCrab737]

I wish creators had some level of decency and didnt take part in sharing it around tbh

[@stetsoncrobison]

What really pisses me off is that they KNOW we hate this limited print shit. They literally said during Sheldon Menery's secret lair that they were specifically NOT doing a limited number of them. I've only purchased 3 secret lairs and they were all print to demand. It gave me time to evaluate which ones i wanted, and have me time to save up for them.

[@Chadekaful]

We have power. We vote with our wallets. And our wallets are empty now. Money speaks loud. When will we learn?

[@hazelieee]

My playgroup sold our collections and replace with proxies/ counterfeit cards because fuck WOTC greed.

[@Dark_Jeff]

For the love of all thats good, stop giving your money to this company. They wont stop as long as we keep throwing money at them. Speak with your dollar, not your reddit whinging

[@obed6050]

So you shared the link to help others cheat? What a hero. Somebody give this guy an Earth’s Mightiest Emblem.

[@DraXCore]

In my mind they should do both. have a set of lairs that are pre printed that they know they will sell and make it so the people who order first will get the preprinted ones. after the preprinted ones sell out it moves to print to order. It doesn't seem like that hard of a problem to solve but wizards just doesn't want to help the players.

[@AussieAlex4]

This is how it used to be. There of course needed to be a certain amount of them made up for press ahead of the releases for Secret Lair drops, and if you're using the printing presses for a few sets you may as well use it for a hundred.

[@TourFaint]

Each time you give them money, you reward them for behaving like this, but go ahead, keep consooming and see where it gets us

[@burnsboy101]

12:00 what about everyone else that didn’t have the link and didn’t get what they wanted because of people skipping you queue?

[@John.JAnderson]

Vince actively moaning about "anti-consumer" practices while helping people jump the queue above others.

[@Tylerthegrappler]

Proxies are the way!! We have all the rules and cards and everything needed to play magic without wizards.

[@ChimneyCrab737]

I think the fact that you shared around the link that allowed you to skip queue is absolutely gross, and I cannot agree with you, people were forced to wait even longer because people kept skipping queue, people who took time out of their day to get these cards were cheated out of it by people like you who who passed around exploits, that is absolutely disgraceful behaviour

[@refundreplay]

Did he share it before the sale finished?

[@ChimneyCrab737]

@refundreplay yep

[@refundreplay]

@@ChimneyCrab737 then I agree, he's an awful human. Part of the reason I rarely ever click his videos.

[@NobleVillian]

Until you click on it and get your cards when you would suddenly not care. Lol Don't throw around blame and try to fling mud at random people on the internet. Blame the company. Blame the corporation. Blame the institution. Be kind to people.

[@ChimneyCrab737]

@@NobleVillian actually I got the cards I wanted, so your point doenst really work there, I'm just as disgusted by the actions he took regardless of what I got, so how about you dont fling mud unless you are aware of my situation :)

[@GhostAcez]

Normalize proxying these secret lairs after they instantly sell out to scalpers like this.

[@PeterIsATeacher]

Me a warhammer consumer: first time?

[@SarithenVol]

@@PeterIsATeacher, at least GW puts stuff on Made to Order from time to time.

[@rsm014]

British person ranting about people jumping a que? Effin’ Gold. 10 out of 10 content. Someone get this man a Dennis Potter Award!

[@goldnage]

Did you watch the podcast with Josh Lee Kwai and the prof? They talked about content creators and setting an example. Unfortunately in this situation you are advocating for people to skip the queue and amplify the issue. That imo is BM. BM to people who were waiting patiently. People who don't live eternally online. Your decision to post a link fed into the FOMO that you hate.

[@PleasantKenobi]

No. The current queue system is fucked and hardly functioning.

[@TheBobaJames]

No not changing the computer time, you could add something that was already in stock to your cart then que early and then could check out early.

[@adriano7444]

Honestly, i have no sympathy for anyone who likes Universes Beyond. You lost 4 hours of your time? Good. Stop buying that product.

[@SirChrisJames]

This was the straw that broke the camel's back. Years of "this product isn't for you" and now maybe Magic isn't for me. I doubt I'm alone in this. Hope shareholders are happy.

[@benpuffer7891]

Anyone that gives them money for this stuff is part of the problem.

[@arglebargle5531]

A note from someone who is often on the "this isn't actually anti-consumer" side of the fence: A good test of "is something anti-consumer" is the transparency test: Is the consumer able to make a free and informed decision about how they are spending their time and money? If the answer is a significant "no", then the practice is 100% anti-consumer. In this case, the fact that queuing in-line early enough to the product didn't actually guarantee a purchase makes this a guaranteed anti-consumer practice. If they want to do this system instead of using the superior print to demand system, then a better practice would be a lottery system that allows people to register their interest in buying the product. The people who are offered the chance to buy the product are chosen at-random, one per-customer. Not only does this approach preserve transparency, it also allows people who don't have time to queue to have a chance to buy the product, making it an example of selection fairness. Other companies are able to use this approach without issue.

[@criticalkel6045]

Its so pathetic to me, that many MTG creators complain about stuff like that and continue to buy it. 0 integrity if you ask me

[@HestonMeatfeast]

I find it rich that he's complaining yet he still shilled for the product like a good little consumer.

[@refundreplay]

It's the only reason Hasbro/WotC continue to abuse them. They let it happen.

[@sathrielsatanson666]

Amen.

[@Alucard_Ander]

Vote with your dollar

[@failfurby]

How to become immune to FOMO, a masterclass. Step 1) stop caring Step 2) repeat step one

[@devinloew7681]

I've been saying that this is the first of like 10 Marvel SL megadrops. They'll slowly increase supply with each one, but being able to tell Disney that they sold "max inventory" within hours vs "we sold X" units. They also didn't want someone to be playing a Marvel card in every commander game ever going forward

[@haofabs]

If you hate it so much PK, why do you buy it?

[@fergusofdalibor4264]

Bro wanted it

[@MikeGeney]

you can want a product and still hate the system put in place for how that product gets purchased and distributed. If anything, it shows integrity to publish a "this is a mess, why is this like this? how can it be fixed?" video after he got basically everything he wanted. Plenty of people get theirs and then don't complain.

[@christhompson8003]

Idea! why not do both? a limited amount of early bird "order now and get it soon limited availability" and then a "print to order" run. "Because that would be expensive" it wouldn't cost any more than it already does! if anything they would get more orders.

[@leviathanops4524]

Objective, non-speculative answer to why they're limiting the runs: they are maximizing profit. There is a point where the marginal cost of producing a good equals the average cost of producing that good, which is to say that producing one more of a unit increases the average cost of all units, and therefore reduces maximum profitability by necessarily increasing cost. After years of producing the product, they have their demand curves and their cost functions down to exact equations, and they know a pretty precise quantity to produce to maximize profit.

[@hankmoody5241]

Why are we supporting a company that allows this to happen to their customers. You nailed it! This experience felt really bad as a person that waited 5 hours for nothing.

[@cloudvaulter]

Totally agree on every point made 🎉 this past year has been BS and totally calculated. Ending the set booster AND screwing the play booster has seriously priced me out. Last 5 yrs I bought alot of new product to crack and enjoy but 2024 has forced me into the secondary singles market 6 to 9 months after a set to catch the down tick.

[@Adverbal27]

I entered seconds after it went live, had to wait 3 and a half hours, then the website glitched and kicked me out when it went to the cart

[@ChimneyCrab737]

This guy made the issue worse by sharing around a link that let people jump infront of you

[@helshome8423]

Waited 4 hours to find my cart emptied and product I wanted was “temporary unavailable” . I got one non foil only to find foil available AFTER I was out of time.

[@adoo765]

your profile picture says everything... thats what happens when you buy shit, you get fucked...and clowned

[@RyanS001]

Proxy the cards, and stop giving them money. I was a hardcore collector who had full sets since Ice Age till recent sets. I sold everything this year and dont intend on buying anything else. I will still play with friends but with proxies. I rather enjoy my money more wisely.

[@vengerofthelight]

PRRROOOOOOOOOXYYYYYYYYY To be clear, I'm DEFINITLEY not defending WotC's anti-consumer practices. Instead, I see resolving to NOT buy their nonsense until they get their priorities in order to be my protest. Frankly, I don't think they'll ever get it in order. MTG will outlive WotC's stewardship.

[@TreyVaswal]

I mean, it's a clusterfuck by design. It's a feature for them. They really don't care people are upset.