Fantasy is stuck in the Dark Ages - Why?

[@kevincrady2831]

I think a major reason for "stuck in the dark ages" in fantasy is that it is possible for characters to try to address their problems by "going on an adventure" instead of just dialing 911. Modern worlds tend to be governed by vast institutions or global macro-economic forces that basically make "heroes" and "heroines" useless, or at best the subject of a human-interest story on the local news, rather than being The One(s) Who Saved The World. It's kinda the same reason adults are usually stupid and/or hostile in YA stories--kids don't get to have perilous adventures and defeat Dark Lords if the adults are even minimally competent. While it would be possible to write stories about fantasy cops/firefighters/doctors, magic-wielding Navy SEAL's or even a fantasy Tom Clancy-style military thriller (Red Storm Rising, but with enchanted fighter jets and Dwarven tanks?), "adventurous" positions in modern/modern-like worlds are basically just jobs that the characters go home from and then it's time to take the kids to soccer practice. The heroes/heroines are small cogs in large bureaucratic organizations, and there are no wondrous distant lands that aren't just tourist destinations. Fantasy (and other "adventure" genres like Post-Apocalypse) offer situations where Everything Is _Not_ Under Control, and individuals or small groups can make a major difference in their world through adventurous derring-do, and you have to actually go over the mountains to find out what's on the other side instead of just asking your smartphone. So, "stuck in the dark ages" tends to be a significant part of the appeal.

[@ilijas3041]

Your description of Fantasy in my book (pun intended) has always been reserved just for epic fantasy, one narrow subgenre. Being rooted in epic cultural traditions, I think it naturally shares the dark age appeal which produces myths of heroes and great struggles... A lot of valid points in the video though, variety is always a good thing, but I think that the pressure of commercial success and the game of numbers in the publishing industry goes against it, unfortunately

[@obijuan-kenobi5117]

The analysis in this video was cool and really well done, but I also think you're overlooking a couple things. Fantasy is largely based in the 'dark ages' because: 1) Those time periods awesome 2) These time periods are a great setting for the fantasy pillars of magic, magical creatures, and going on an adventure frought with perils. 3) Many people don't want modern technology in fantasy because that would take away from the 'escape' that we often are reading fantasy for in the first place. 4) Most stories are told within a specific time frame and don't span enough generations to show what advancement may take place later. (Many exceptions to this, that's a general statement) I also think that fantasy writers are getting more and more creative, as you eluded to with some of your examples, and will continue to evolve as time goes on - however, the classic time period settings of fantasy will always be a prominent thing. And that's ok.

[@Disentropic1]

One thing I disagree about is your desire to see these worlds 'modernize' over time. I mean, in most cases they _should change,_ but seeing them develop inexorably towards _our_ modern world, to _me,_ undermines the entire concept of fantasy as a genre. Much of my interest in fantasy and sci-fi is to imagine how life could be _different,_ and how the possibilities for the world diverge, develop, and are foreclosed over time. It would be profoundly disappointing to me, even outright contradictory, if fantasy as a genre settled on the expectation that something like _our_ world has always been inevitable.

[@michaelmcgee335]

Urban fantasy exists for the genre to have a more modern setting.

[@kevincrady2831]

Agreed! It would be more interesting to see a fantasy world develop into some kind of radically different "advanced" stage (depending on the magic system, creatures, etc.) rather than inevitably turning into some version of Earth-history-but-with-magic-guns.

[@MrHazz111]

The reason fantasy remains primarily in 'dark ages Europe' is mainly because of (for a lack of a better term) VIBES. Beginning with Tolkien, a learned professor of old English and old Norse literature, who in turn in influenced by the Medieval Romanticism of the 18th century. The pull of fantasy for many I think is going into a world that is fundamentally different from our own, that lands a certain aesthetic, and that aesthetic will be Anglo Saxon and Norse islands and 15th century England and France. Of course, this is changing, and I would suggest a book like 'Against all Gods' which is a bronze age fantasy book for a different time period. Personally, I wouldn't want something that takes place in our world, it would fundamentally feel off to me, again because of those dreaded yet beautiful vibes. And as for technological progress, you are right in that many fantasy books that depict an alternate Early Modern Europe seem afraid to commit to the Industrial revolution. But I disagree that this seeming progress is normal for our world. The technology between 4000 years ago and 3000 years ago is not very drastic, even if many other things change. The last 500 years are an aberration, the scientific method and industrialism has changed our world for better and worse, but I think fantasy is a genre that allows us to look to a world before that with fantastical and drama coded goggles, a secular mythology if you will.

[@TheYellowcrush]

I think there are a few series I can think of that fall into that more modern/futuristic space and dovetail with technology and science, while still being fantasy and having magic as a central element: The Broken Earth trilogy by NK Jemisin leaps to mind, as does the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik (set during Napoleonic times but definitely post Dark Ages), the Drowning Empire trilogy by Andrea Stewart. I'm just realizing these were also all written by women 😂, so I don't know if that has any correlation, but wanted to mention those as well.

[@bexencr]

Dune of course, has all the tropes that you mentioned and the history moves forward thousands of years while we see entire planets and civilizations change

[@xxxaragon]

Which of course is why I'd argue that, on average, it's generally regarded more as "science fiction".

[@christiangruenwied3780]

I understand your point - but for me, classical fantasy worlds are just fine. Simple people finding simple solutions ("just whack the dragon over the head") for simple problems. This is where I can relax - and if the story has a morale to it, I'll take it as a bonus. As well as the inevitable happy end. (yes, I'm very simply knitted here).

[@ParthapratimsChannel]

This 👍

[@SkywalkerOne1977]

The difficulty with futuristic fantasy is people feeling overpowered. Dune does this really well. There's spaceships, giant weapons, etc, but the focus is on the individual's magic.

[@taliadavidovsky4569]

Something that I think about sometimes is how magic might make technological progress less likely. If people can communicate through magic, why invent things to help people communicate over long distances? If people can teleport, why invent transportation? If people can create a ball of fire in their hand, why invent the light bulb? Not all fantasy worlds have magic versions of our technology, but for those that do, if accessible, the supernatural would presumably cause industrialization to look very, very different than it did in our world. If you want Robin Hobb's world to advance out of the dark ages, you have to remember that people have telepathic abilities already that make long-distance communication redundant. You have to remember that people can ride dragons or liveships, so what market pressure is there to invent steamships and airplanes? In some ways, that world is already on the brink of advancing out of the dark ages, and they can do it without factories and trains. To our eyes, the lack of industrialization means that the world will be stuck in the dark ages, but that's like saying cats are more primitive than humans because they can't talk. Cats don't need to talk to survive. Cats are just as evolved as humans. Cats can do plenty of things that humans can't. Maybe cats see our inability to use whiskers as sense organ as primitive. A society's evolution is the same. Societies don't need to evolve industry to be considered evolved. It's pretty biased to say uncontacted tribes are primitive or stuck in the hunter gatherer ages. Those people have evolved too. Theyve just evolved differently than we have. The better question is how did the fantasy world ever reach Medieval Era technology in the first place? Why forge steel if you can use magically reinforced tree bark or something? Why domesticate the dog if you already have dragon companions? Why farm anything if those dragons can hunt enough to sustain a large population of humans?

[@charlesburge2564]

I believe Malazan answers that exact question about magic vs tech

[@grff_]

This works in a fantasy world where magic is accepted and yielded by most. If you take for example Priory of the Orange tree, only one or two "countries" actually use magic and its a very closed practice, only a few communities allow dragons and very few people are chosen to mount and travel with them. So you're set in a fantasy world where most people are ordinary, why haven't they progressed?

[@stephennootens916]

One of the vary few fantasies I like is The Dark Tower and while they hop back and forth to are world moat of the books take place in a world inspired by the American west by way of some sort of apocalypse or as the book puts "the world moved on."

[@fantastical-whimsical5937]

Excelent video! It's got my brain working for counter-arguments for fantasy of the timeless variety (forgetting sub-genres for the moment) and the tropes like chosen ones, with the regulation of birth registration, it could lead to the fun plots of a chosen one being purposefully hidden by their caretakers to protect them, or a governmental power converting and trying to control them for their power, and the story is about them breaking free of that authority. For Quests with trains or public transport, I love the idea of a train helping lead the way to the quest, and the last stop of the line is the border between known civilisation and the unknown or ruins of the past, stepping off the lone station, the sky seems almost touchable, the stars feel close, and for a example of tech and transport for quests, Kiki from Ghibli, uses a broom to deliver as her quest, she does so despite having access to cars or bikes because, if everyone is using the other tech, she is going to get to her places quicker. I have this idea where I don't want to use sub-genres when I write, I like the idea of timeless, where we can have technology, we can have cannals and trains, but maybe the industrial side has been made from a unquie type of fuel only found in that place, or everyone wears 18th century poet shirts with renascence doublets, but they have modern hoody-like cloaks as wizards, mixing together items is a lot of fun and I wish many would explore more without limiting themselves to genres like steampunk or medieval. I agree this is a huge problem, I want to write and read more settings with modern variety, my brother absolutely loved the idea of a 20th century Americana setting with diners and political divide, with races like elves, orcs, humans, and so on, metropolis, the idea of a futuristic metropolis where elves live sounds epic! I want the ancient lost history, the ruins of old, but maybe I want those random obelisks, standing on the side of the road, where a tram stop has been built, left there, but no one minds it! Sewers that are older then the existing city above it, a Babelonian-esque lighthouse in operation as the oldest structure, but the town around it is made of brutalist architecture after a devastating occupation.

[@KVP94Guitar]

I think that a lot of this ties in to the debate between science fiction and fantasy as well, as they are often branched together. I will be the first to admit that I to think of fantasy primarily as you pointed out, medieval, swords, wizards, etc. If something were to be set up space for example, I would automatically consider it as science fiction, or for something in like a cyberpunk world again fantasy. Neil Gaiman, Clive Barker, and Gerard Brom are three authors I consider to be fantasy (albeit Dark Fantasy with horror influences) that often place fantasy in non-medieval settings and it works quite well for them. Another great example is obviously The Dark Tower, which is western fantasy. I guess again it begs the question of where is the distinguishing line between science fiction and fantasy, or is science fiction just fantasy but through more heavily science influenced scenarios.

[@katieg2449]

I dont know if you’re interested in Fantasy scholarship but I really recommend Farah Mendelsohn either a short history of fantasy part of which discusses 19th century obsessions with medievalisms that were part of the project of creating a national identity for England (which as you said was part of what Tolkien was doing to in the next century). Farah’s rhetorics of fantasy is my favorite work of fantasy scholarship although a bit more challenging and can give you a pretty good reading list of books outside of the mainstream sword and sorcery stuff if you’re looking for that.

[@JessOwens]

Back to comment that yes I agree that I would like to see fantasy worlds/series develop over time.

[@LienesLibrary]

Would at least mean a bit more variety lol

[@wolfpecker5710]

@@LienesLibraryhave you read “the last war” trilogy by Mike Shackle yet? I just finished it and liked it quite a bit!

[@pjtrant]

I would say it’s more medieval rather than dark ages.

[@user-nd8rp9tl4k]

Liene, along with the reasons that you mentioned, an additional reason is, I think, that fantasy is often escapist to a degree. And a lot of people like to escape into a pre-modern era of swords, spears, bows and arrows, knights and queens and dragons and castles etc. Those worlds are very different than our own and there is a certain satisfaction in embodying a character in such a world. As opposed to that, the era of gunpowder coincides with the creation of centralised states, the beginning of bureaucracy and massive institutions and wars become an affair of massive armies of cannon fodder, much less dependent on individual valour. Then you have the industrial revolution with the abject poverty and horrible conditions of the working classes, and if you try to do any heroics in that era, you will probably be accused of doing political fantasy. Therefore, the pre-modern era offers a much easier landscape for building stories which are completely detached from modern reality. That being said, of course you can make very interesting fantastical stories inhabiting worlds more closely modelled on the modern world or its recent past. I will quote a fantasy series called Carnival Row, which is an original series not based on a book, as I understand. Now, a lot of people don't like this series and I acknowledge that it has many faults, including some wooden acting, half-baked political commentary and various plot contrivances. It also does a Game of Thrones, by having lots of sex and nudity and killing off some of its major characters in really brutal fashion. However, the setting is really interesting, being in a steampunk world which also includes the Fae, including Faeries, Pucks and other magical creatures, most of whom come from a continent which is still in the pre-modern era, whilst the human nations have evolved to a Victorian/WWI type of technology and are waging imperialist wars over the Fae continent. There is magic in that world and it has a very dark, chthonic quality that adds a horror element to the story. So, although one can fault the execution, I would have enjoyed to see some good stories in a world like this. With regards to your point referring to the evolution of those fantasy worlds overtime, following an evolution similar to the one in our world (pre-modern to Renaissance to industrial revolution etc), one must not fall into the trap of historical or technological determinism. The fact that our world followed this trajectory, does not mean that it was inevitable or that it was the only possible outcome and only possible future. Certainly, certain developments led to one thing and then another, but things could have gone differently. For instance, many modern inventions were re-inventions of ancient concepts which just were not part of a paradigm shift when they first happened, maybe because of a combination of material circumstances and chance, to become prevalent then, but became prevalent now. For instance, there were inventions using steam or hydraulics to achieve movement in antiquity in the Mediterranean (especially in the Hellenistic and Roman eras) but those ancients never created a functional steam engine to be used for production. I think it was Aristarchos, in the Hellenistic times, who postulated along with Anaxagoras that the Sun was in the centre of the solar system, with the Earth turning around it, and the stars in the sky were likely other suns like ours, while Eratosthenes believed that the Earth was a sphere and he measured its radius and circumference with relative accuracy. However their views did not win out and the opposing Aristotelian view of the universe remained prevalent until almost 15-16 centuries later. Equally, gunpowder was used for many centuries in China for fireworks and for weapons of various sorts, but never reached the devastating efficiency there that it reached in Europe after it was copied there. What I am trying to say with thins long-winded comment, is that there is no reason for an alternative world to develop the same as ours, they may diverge in all kinds of ways. And consider something else. The pre-modern era is actually a vast stretch of time where the level of technology changed and evolved and many aspects of social organisation changed but the overall society remained what we call pre-modern. For instance, for the later Romans, the classical Greeks were already ancients. For the classical Greeks the archaic times of the second millennium bronze age were also ancient times, and those civilisations had left only ruins. So, even in a premodern-type world, there was a large variety of settings to draw from, when creating a fantastical world. Anyway, I appreciate your analysis and I also would like to see more variety in fantasy settings, these are just my thoughts on the subject.

[@winstonschwarz1636]

Are you reading out the Wikipedia page on “Fantasy” capital F?

[@lavahawke46]

This discussion made me start thinking about A Discovery of Witches. I haven't read the books, just watched the show and it was interesting but I remember wondering how the world's governments were so normal with all this magic in it. The time travelling was extra interesting but I felt it was a missed opportunity to do as you are suggesting here, to really push the boundaries instead of having all this magic just set in the urban era and the magic has become ignored by modern day. However, I LOVED the How to train your dragon books by Cressida Cowell. This would seem like simple fantasy but as you go along you slowly start to realize that they are set in the past because they are explaining something important about our current day. I enjoyed the intersection.

[@williamcarr5548]

I just stumbled on your KZbin channel. I love your content and you have a lot of talent. Keep up the great work and you'll go far.

[@LienesLibrary]

Thanks so much that’s so kind!

[@williamcarr5548]

You're most welcome. Have a nice and safe weekend. I look very forward to your next video.

[@GrahamCStrouse]

Honestly I think that what you’re describing something that pen & paper RPGs have explored more than more traditional speculative fiction.

[@tomworks8004]

Fascinating topic. Well organized and laid out A joy to listen to.

[@watcherofwatchers]

This is an interesting topic, and you are definitely on point here. I think part of it is also "historical" settings help keep the stories timeless. Anything set in a contemporary timeframe will eventually become dated, especially if specific technology or pop culture are referenced. However, some authors with traction are starting to explore this. I know you're not a huge Sanderson fan, but he's definitely starting to play with this (even more than you mentioned with Mistborn), both in and out of the Cosmere and in contemporary times and future times. Also, the Magicians series (as shi**y as it is, was ~half set in contemporary times. I find these to be promising that the genre is evolving.

[@lavahawke46]

I think even medieval fantasy can have a lot of scope. I love even the Darkover novels that are all very fantasy based (because they are on a planet that is devoid of heavy metal ore) and yet having that intersect with more modern technology because you eventually discover that Darkover was inhabited by humans who had crash-landed a colony ship there long ago. The relevant book to read here would be Rediscovery by Bradley and Lackey - you might not like all the rest of the books that are very medieval fantasy drama. Oh, and one more set of books that have a really interesting intersection (at the very end) is the Sword of Truth books by Terry Goodkind - though you have to read through a lot of them before seeing the crossover.

[@bossked1563]

Something else to consider about classical fantasy settings: they're mysterious, but they're also simple. Especially since industrialization, we've moved as a culture from reverent and curious into "There is a materialistic explanation governed by natural laws that can be discovered, catalogued, experimented with, and then exploited." *Everything* has an explanation, *everything* can be controlled/predicted. Any long-standing fantasy elements in a modern setting will have long ago been probed, tested, combined, and otherwise investigated. Heck, you see articles all the time about holy relics from various religions being ran through MRIs and x-rays and whatnot because "Jesus' resurrection will certainly have resulted in a radical change in the atomic make-up of the body, which may have left impressions on the molecular structure of the burial shroud!" or whatever. Our pursuit of knowledge has become all-consuming, at the cost of any mystery or even respect or decency. But why is this bad? (It isn't, but go with me here.) Fantasy stories descend from fairy tales and myths, which means that *theme* and *meaning* are a core element to the genre. It's not about the technicalities of the arcane energies involved, it's the emotion and intent behind it. You don't use holly sprigs harvested in moonlight because the luminescent properties affect the cellular blah blah blah, it's because there's a meaning to holly, and a meaning to moonlight, and THAT'S the important part. If you try to explain away the magic, it essentially becomes science. And science is... well, not magic. Natural law is, by its nature, devoid of meaning - it simply "is". The "ought" must come from something supernatural (lit. "beyond nature"). (What's the meme, "Yeah, it's a rock that kills you if you stand too close to it, can create a fireball large enough to glass a city, can power that same city indefinitely, and glows in the dark, but it's not magic, I swear! It's just uranium!") But that said, we have plenty of examples of magic in technological settings. Biotics in Mass Effect is basically magic, and EVERYTHING about the Reapers screams "Lovecraftian Old Gods". But you'll notice that there's almost always a reason to not understand the magic, so it keeps the mystery (Mass Effect's tech is found and not invented, for example). And it's in that mystery that you can actually take full advantage of it.

[@douglasphillips5870]

There are numerous subgenres. Medieval fantasy is also a subgenre, but it's so common that we don't think of it that way. Having technology doesn't invalidate it. Sword and sandal fantasy can arguably have less technology, is it still fantasy?

[@zorbageekman2761]

I'm not sure I agree with all your premises. I have read a lot of fantasy and there is a lot of scope for imagination, so I don't find the genre lacking, although I don't read as much as I have gotten older. As long as the story is good, I am not too concerned, with if it falls into all the usual tropes. Also if you set fantasy in the future, does it blur with science fiction, which has been the case with various fantasy novels anyway. Dune itself has lasers, but due to personal shield technology, most warriors learn to fight with hand to hand weapons, and humans have evolved where they have mentats, that are like human machines and Bene Gesserits have almost witch like magical powers due to their training and control of their bodies. Some of Moorcock's eternal champions have futuristic worlds, and some might say they are not fantasy but sci fi instead? I also think in worlds with magic in existence, you would question if their needs to be industrialization. While I think it's still likely, there could be reasons why that wouldn't be a path their societies take. Guns, tanks and bombs, could be completely useless against powerful magic. One of my favorite series, which does touch on what you are talking about is Joel Rosenbergs Guardians of the Flame series. Set in our world, group of college students playing D&D get teleported to another world and take on the persona of their characters in the game. Their wizard of the group, through misfortune loses his ability to do magic, and falls back to his previous skills as an engineering student in his world. As the story progresses, he become more and more critical to the group and the world, as he starts to bring his unique skills into this new world, essentially technology. He creates gunpowder and introduces other technologies to the world. The story progresses with them taking on the problem of slavery in the world and the slave traders, and as the story progresses the slavers build their own guns, but not using gunpowder and science, but instead magic. So when you say, Guns, Bombs and tanks would render magic useless, I am not completely sure that would be the case. It may well be that t would just give magicians in that world, something to build similarly, but powered by magic, or the magic might be powerful enough to render the weapons just as ineffective as a sword

[@MoMo-ys6fu]

Thanks for this video. I've noticed that AI-based sci-fi tends to look a lot like fantasy. Authors tend to give AI powers that are essentially akin to magic. These powers are just emanating from machines instead of unicorns, dragons, wizards, or fairies, e.g. anticipating every move, jumping locations or even dimensions, controlling things remotely, manifesting energy in unexplainable ways, etc.

[@bookphilos]

There once was a video published by Nerdwriter1 titled "How the Dragons in Game of Thrones Stop Progress in Westeros" and the main argument was that the mere existence of dragons aka magic prevents scientific progress. I cant find it anymore, but there are several articles that summarize the main points. However, I disagree with the idea that dragons aka magic (should) prevent progress. Even tolkien introduced gunpowder to Middle-earth and thus seedlings of progress. He just didn't wanted to elaborate on that. I'm definitely all here for fantasy set in modern times

[@JessOwens]

I have nothing of value to comment except that I’m loving this video and you look fabulous. K thanks bye 😘

[@LienesLibrary]

Dawww 🥰

[@hglundahl]

10:18 I begin to suspect that Misadventures of Sebastian and all of Westmark are Flintlock Fantasy?

[@Thagomizer]

How do you classify Historical Fantasy?

[@emilcwyld]

Perhaps a possible reason is that people like simpler times? No social media, smart devices, pollution, climate change, fire arms, weapons of mass destruction, bio-chemical warfare, fast travel methods, personal vehicles and so on. Maybe that's what fantasy means now? I also would like to see more variety in fantasy.

[@kevincrady2831]

I think it's not so much "simpler times" (they had plagues and bandits and roving armies and famines etc. instead of social media, etc.), as times in which an individual or small group could "go on an adventure," fight bad guys and make a major difference in their world. Modern-world (or modern-like world) problems can't be solved that way. They tend to require things like mass movements, or working one's way up through the ranks of massive institutions, running for national office and getting elected followed by lots of boring political sausage-making, having very large amounts of money or the like. Apart from wildly unrealistic '80's action movies, "adventurer" types are pretty much useless in a modern/modern-like world. In short: Papers and Paychecks is a much less exciting game than Dungeons and Dragons.

[@lieslherman]

We seem to see more stories exploring different parts of the world, different mythologies cultures etc, but time period does seem so far to be really underutilized! I imagine the dark ages are kind of an easy, blank slate template to imagine on top of, and we clearly really romanticize that era... For some reason lol... And perhaps that's when we imagine magic feels the most impactful. But I'd love to see even more 1920's, Victorian, and modern stories! Variety is the spice of life! ^^

[@heabooktubes]

This was super interesting and made a lot of sense.

[@Narmorendil]

I agree for the most part, but I always thought that it fits. I´m not saying that fantasy should stick to a medieval setting, at all (lack of originality ate the end), but in my mind it kinda makes sense... smart people would study magic instead of science, so the world would not advance that much, technologically speaking.

[@Steve_Stowers]

It has long seemed to me that some genres are defined by the kind of plots they use (e.g. mystery, romance) while others are defined by the kind of settings they use (e.g. western, historical). Science fiction is an interesting case: some people think of science fiction as stories about science and scientists and the effects of scientific technology, while others think of science fiction as stories set in a world with spaceships and aliens and robots and lasers. (Star Wars, for example, is science fiction according to the second definition but not the first.) And so two different people who both consider themselves science fiction fans may be looking for very different things. When it comes to fantasy, a big part of the appeal for some readers is the setting-the tropes and trappings. They love The Lord of the Rings (for example) at least partly because they love Middle Earth, and they want more stories set in similar types of settings.

[@Gl1tch2263]

Will a fantasy book set in the future automatically be labelled sci-fi? 🤯 Where does magical realism fit into this?

[@johnthomas2485]

You really need to read L.E. Modessit's books. He does these things in the Imager and Recluse books.

[@charlesburge2564]

This is awesome thank you

[@Urzza]

Engaging comment that engage!

[@LienesLibrary]

😂

[@osoisko1933]

I feel very engaged.

[@hglundahl]

8:09 What do you label the Misadventures of Sebastian? To me, it's clearly fantasy, and yet the setting is as clearly sth like 1750-ish

[@ReadBecca]

Does it have non real/possible elements? if yes, it might also fit in other genres too, but it definely fits in fantasy.

[@SkywalkerOne1977]

I think tropes with a twist are amazing. But the trope of being anti-trope just feels weird.

[@scottv5587]

This is why I much prefer the sci-fantasy style over traditional fantasy. Technology and magic shouldn’t be at odds with each other but instead should create much more inventive tech

[@chowyee5049]

So basically Steampunk? Edit: Also Star Wars and Dune. I believe the actual term is Science Fantasy.

[@LocnavLivoc]

maybe we could say something like "medieval fantasy" and "modern fantasy"

[@salomealhusami594]

Hello! I'm new to this BookTuber's channel. So, I have a question: has Liene read Malazan Book of the Fallen, but hasn't done any video reviews on it? Because I can't find them. Or does she plan on reading them? Or has she given them a try and then DNF-ed them? Because I also looked for a video rant on Malazan between her videos, but couldn't find any. Maybe she doesn't plan on reading them or talking about them at all...?! Edit: after much searching, I found two videos about Malazan, but they are both about Gardens of the Moon. So, it seems like she DNF-ed the series...? I'm very much interested to know if her father stuck with it though. He seemed to like it and he said that he has faith in Erikson. So, I hope he did!

[@JerodimusPrime]

So we're just gonna ignore the elephant in the room that is Star Wars? 🤷🏿‍♂There's also Dune and Empire of Silence series, too. Sci-Fantasy genre is going a small renaissance now.

[@kevincrady2831]

Star Wars and Dune both feature medieval-ish science-fantasy realms (emperors and princesses and mystic blade-wielding warriors, etc., but with spaceships and robots) that remain relatively unchanging over vast stretches of time. They're basically Tolkien-fantasy in futuristic drag.

[@JerodimusPrime]

@@kevincrady2831 Dune, maybe, but Star Wars, no. It has galactic senates and democracy as well as Western type tropes like bounty hunters and gunslingers. It's basically what would happen if you took medieval fantasy and progressed it into Space Opera. The Locked Tomb series is also a fantasy progressed into space opera, too.

[@hglundahl]

17:00 Has it crossed your mind that industrialism might be an anomaly, and not really the same thing as normal progress from 1400 would have been?

[@Viksbelle]

Want out of the Dark Ages? Try flintlock fantasy.

[@HellBoy-id6ss]

Cute the way you say Tolkien..😘

[@reirei7086]

This is a really cool video. I’ve always thought fantasy set beyond urban settings were the most untapped. The only author I currently know of who’s trying to do fantasy but beyond an urban setting is Brandon Sanderson who aims to set his fantasy worlds in the space age at some point apparently.

[@hunterghobadi1269]

I agree it is all based on Tolkien. But it also worth mentioning how narrow a lens the Fantasy genre really is when basing itself off of one person. Tolkien's fantasy was about cobbling together as many details as possible to replicate our own history. If we just go with the basic terminology fantasy one could also include absurdist fiction like Kafka or Gogol since the unreal happens in those books as well. But the unreal in what we call the "fantasy genre" isn't about impossible happenings, its about an alternate reality trying to mimic our own. It is a different set of laws, physical and political, that try to copy our own with different names and shapes. Tolkien was trying to be realistic. He was trying to recreate a moment in history to bridge the gap between old and new which is why he was so intensely focused on scientific details including hereditary lineage, geographic continuity, and racial divisions. But all those follow a similar pattern to our own world so the information while seemingly impressive in scope is just a reciting of actual historical facts reshuffled and presented as something altogether new. Everyone who tried to copy Tolkien, thereby building we we call today the "fantasy genre" fell into the trap of trying to make their 'fantasy' as realistic as possible by specifying every extraneous tangent until it becomes nothing more than reality. The FantasyTM community requires a specific time period whether it be the dark ages or the renaissance because in order for the author to be as granular as Tolkien was they need actual examples to copy from. It makes it so that none of the genre is really fantastical as all these unique details about the characters and world drift off from some page in a history textbook. The real question you should be asking is not why the Dark Ages, but why an Age at all. If Fantasy is something completely different from what we know it shouldn't be based on a specific era or technological epoch at all, in fact it should be unrelated to any period of time we know, something radical and different. But as long as Tolkien's shadow remains that will never be. In the mean time Melville and Camus who weren't even writing fantasy will still be more fantastical than those who write in this so called genre of 'fantasy'.

[@jondow2606]

I really liked this video and agree with the ideas, but just to play devils advocate. Perhaps the “black and white” lack of technology provides a stronger contrast to the “colorfulness” of magic

[@jimfrostpreaches]

IDK if you'd like it, but the 'The Dresden Files' series is interesting. Harry is a modern day wizard, occasionally contracted by the Chicago P.D. to assist in 'those' cases. It brings up issues like cognitive dissonance, where people see but can't believe what they saw. And interference with electronics from Harry's powers. The author has even created a hidden magical oversight governance system.

[@sharkymb8552]

have you seen/ read outlander series?

[@ruik9530]

simple...because dark ages were mysterious and anything abnormal that happened was termed as magical or fantasy esque. love your videos gurl❤❤

[@grand_R]

Yeah, Jade City is definitely urban fantasy set in a secondary world. Its "secondaryness" is basically redundant, like sure, the geographical names are different from the real world but other than that there's no meaningful distinction from the real world? Everything but jade is 100% how it is in our world, there's no technical or cultural otherness to it. It could have easily called its countries "Japan" and "the US" and nothing would have changed. I'd even say it was created this way but renamed its geography halfway through because bringing real life politics into the story didn't serve it well. Its closest relatives are "The Man with the Iron Fists" and "Mortal Kombat". Mieville's Bas-Lag series would have served this video better :D

[@nazimelmardi]

If you have magic like in Malazan, your culture will forget how to use modern technology. Why would they use it? It’s way more easy to resolve it with magic. That circle is discussed in Memories of Ice when one of the tribes discovers that they had modern steel weapons but over the time they forgot how to make and use them. The magic rendered it out. It stops the technology advances in a lot of things like medicine, architecture, war. So the capitalism is there in book 5 and with all the systems to maintain, that’s again a modern idea. With an army paid by the government. It’s not medieval at all. As well as how they think there about religion and magic. Very practical. So Steven Erikson makes a point why we have these traditional elements. Because it’s pretty hard to make a foundation for several of the magic systems besides the modern technology. How do you explain the process of discovery when you have the tools? ☝️Most of our research are based on needs. If that is removed by magic? So that’s why the Jade City is ok, it doesn’t help much in a lot of things. But try to add the magic of Malazan to the same world… those magic users can resolve anything including traveling long distances. The empire has no interest in supporting research.

[@TheSneakyBlanket]

I kind of disagree with you here.. the reason why I prefer fantasy over sci fi is because it is less "technologically advanced". I live with phone and computers and robots and smart-tech every day and I don't really want to read about a modern world, because it's too close to home. I love fantasy for the escapism it gives me, that it's so far from what I can "expect" to ever experience in my life, and I often avoid urban fantasy or sci fi books for this reason. I feel like advancing the technology and stuff like that in fantasy makes it dip its feet too much into the sci fi genre.. Don't get me wrong, I don't want my books to show all the misogeny and rasism we know existed in out world during medieval times, but I prefer swords to guns any day!

[@JoelAdamson]

1. Yes, lots of authors are doing precisely what you call for. Epic fantasy as we knew and loved it even five years ago is DEAD. Publishers don't want it except from the Joes Abercrombie of the world. Agents won't touch it. It's Fourth Wing or No Wing for anybody who wants to write about dragons. 2. The definition that I think works best is that science fiction and fantasy are both about sources of power. In scifi power comes from technology (or natural resources) and so the conflict is about access to that technology, because anybody can use it. Fantasy is about inborn (or chosen) power: only some people can use the sources of power. 3. Now, that could happen in any time period, but as you said, it fits best with a pre-modern time period when social roles were more rigid. I would add, however, that Tolkien/Howard-style fantasy doesn't take place in a particular time or place. It is, instead, outside of time. I think this is what a lot of modern fantasy gets wrong. They try as much as possible to pin it down to a specific time or place for "inspiration." 4. For most of human history, a thousand years didn't mean any major advance in technology. In some cases, like the Bronze Age Collapse and the fall of the Western Roman Empire, it meant a serious decline. I, for one, am not particularly interested in how fantasy societies develop either technologically or philosophically/socially. I think it defeats the purpose of the genre. 5. Some authors have mixed things up pretty good, even in the 90s. L.E. Modesitt's Recluce books have steam power!

[@craigrideout490]

Yes, you just said everything I was trying to say better

[@JoelAdamson]

@@craigrideout490 I may have neglected to say that I think Liene is absolutely right in her analysis (the first half of the video), but I don't think "stuck in the dark ages" is a problem. It is (for me) the entire charm of the genre.

[@craigrideout490]

@@JoelAdamson fair enough, but I really don't like her ideal fantasy becoming the norm. It works as a niche, but just go outside if you want a modern world

[@JoelAdamson]

@@craigrideout490 it's already the norm. That's what I was saying. Even publishers like Tor who got big off catering to the niche market of cloaks and dragons don't want that kind of thing unless it's from a highly-established author. I think they're making a mistake.

[@osoisko1933]

Good points. I would like publishers and readers to give a bigger chance to Fantasy that doesn't play it close to the Medieval paradigm. Aside from the examples Liene gave with Green Bone Saga, Age of Madness and Mistborne Era 2, I'd recommend The Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone, Divine Cities by Robert Jackson Bennet, The Grishaverse by Leigh Bardugo, Bas Lag by China Mieville, and The Black Iron Legacy by Gareth Hanrahan.

[@kevo3046]

Have you quit youtube

[@MagpieCrafter]

2:25 Just shows how ignorant and Christian-focused Tolkien was.

[@lilifane]

First book that came to mind immediately was The Sword of Kaigen. It feels like a typical Fantasy story but the world also has modern elements. Or The Broken Earth trilogy that is often called Sci-Fantasy just because people don't know what to do with the combination of magic and science/technology otherwise I guess.

[@eugeneylliez829]

So fantasy is stuck in the XXth and XXIth centuries? xD

[@JLo1701]

Thank you for doing this video, this is a topic that I have struggled with for years and thought I was the only one. Take Game of Thrones for example rich history of thousands of years yet still has not advanced technologically, I want to see a series that shows that shows a modern version of what that would look like. I think you did a fantastic job of explaining this and especially the breakdown of the subgenres like Steampunk, Flintlock and Urban Fantasy your analysis was spot on. Also, thank you for giving some examples of series, I have avoided the Green Bone Series because I thought it was just Urban Fantasy, which I have nothing against and do read. This video made my day. TY

[@Eluarelon]

The premise of this video is already wrong. If you think Fantasy is stuck in the Dark Ages, that is pretty much a you problem, because fantasy is so much more than that. Urban Fantasy, a lot of Romantasy, Steam punk fantasy, LitRPGs, there's literally tons of fantasy novels that don't play in the Dark Ages.

[@craigrideout490]

100 percent disagree with your version of what the "norm" of fantasy should be. I live in a modern world, and with few expectations, why would I want to escape back into a modern world? It also makes sense you see limited advancement in lots of fantasy world. Humans really didn't start making big advancement for 1000s of years. With big leaps only starting in the last 100-150 years. If you want the modern world you can just turn on the tv or go outside. Science fiction also tends to be advanced societies or modern day

[@siggydigdig]

Very interesting topic. I think what you're looking for is in the science fiction section.

[@osoisko1933]

No

[@daymi7300]

gods I'm so tired of medieval esque fantasy worlds

[@SuperBeanson]

why does fantasy have to have a medieval setting? That's rather like asking why a Western has to be set in the 1860s. It's a matter of tropes. People want what they want. And you as a novelist don't have to comply, but be aware: readers who know what they want have choices