Why hadn't Sauron heard of the Shire?

[@bplup6419]

Imagine your boss tells you to find a ring and your only lead is, "The crackhead we tortured says someone in Virginia named Johnson has it."

[@ishmamahmed9306]

It wouldn't be too hard to find Virginia though. A random county that the crackhead and boss calls "The County" though? Okay, that location would be hard to find, no matter how large the county is.

[@Yugemos]

Makes you wonder doesn't it? Any chance some ring wraiths took some liberties on time spent recovering the ring? I hear tell of some good ladies of the night that work out of Bree.

[@kevin_parkerson]

This is such a hilarious and perfect analogy 🤣

[@keith6706]

"Virginia Virginia or West Virginia?" "There's more than one?"

[@SamAronow]

"Her name might've been Cheryl and she was wearing a red shirt in 1984."

[@SageKasuto]

In addition, Bilbo tended to keep the name of his homeland to himself once he left Rivendell. His only reference to Smaug was that he came from "under the hill," which would be incomprehensible to the dragon.

[@baer0083]

"under the hill" probably made smaug think even more about Bilbo being a friend of dwarves.

[@Delta040301]

I am from the ancient sea.

[@mandowarrior123]

​@@baer0083little people, underground, secret, assumed fortress to guard the ring, Sauron probably was losing his hair looking for a hidden dwarf fortress.

[@chriskoschik391]

@@mandowarrior123 one must have a physical body to lose his hair! lol, just kidding. You’re probably right.

[@mandowarrior123]

@@chriskoschik391 Well, he had eyelashes before this.

[@ChallisVenstra]

Respect to Farmer Maggot. The man who looked a Nazgûl in the eye and told him to pound sand. Hard to walk with balls that big.

[@WayneKerrr]

It's no wonder Frodo feared him. The Nazgûl got off lucky

[@MyScorpion42]

what an unfortunate name

[@ATVatcher]

@ChallisVenstra 2nd-ed (with enthusiasm). The old Gaffer told a Nazgul to 'eat sod' also. I bet good Butterbur would have as well. TGFDP!

[@ATVatcher]

@@WayneKerrr 😀

[@jellyfishjones4741]

"Shire? Never heard of it." -- Saruman, lighting up a pipeful of Old Toby

[@KindredBrujah]

He says he's already got one! Already got one?! - Are you sure? - "Oh yes, it's very nice!"

[@jefforious2000]

baaahahahaha

[@ATVatcher]

We need a Saruman confession (regarding pipeweed).

[@elijahalbiston]

That was my exact humorous mental image. What a troll this wizard was

[@hollllllllz]

Thanks to you, good Sir, I shat ma pants 😚👌

[@goldengriffon]

It always amuses me how the One Ring's strength is what leads to its undoing. The lust over its power is what led Saruman to lie, allowing Frodo to escape the Shire in time. Its tempting of Boromir broke the Fellowship at the best possible moment; to have stayed longer would have surely led to it being taken. Hearing how it overcame his brother helped stay Faramir's hand. And of course, Gollum's desire is what wrested it from Frodo and into the Crack of Doom. I'm sure I missed plenty of other instances. Just brilliant writing.

[@baer0083]

Some others: - Saruman only fell, because he was ignorant towards the ents in his pursuit for power and the ring - Denethor lost his first son to his own hunger for power and the ring and drove him into insanity I guess those events are all part of Tolkiens moral lesson. Not only are the small and, at first glance, unimportant people later the most impactfull. The ones striving for power and domination of other will fall by their own ambitions.

[@SylviaRustyFae]

Its esp even more brilliant writin for the fact that it bein so associated with power and that bein the rings grtest strength and weakness; thats all prty much just a foil for Sauron himself, who literally put part of his soul into the ring after all... And Sauron's whole thing is that his obsession with power mayve got him to where he was, with seemingly lots of power; but also is why he wudnt think the meek hobbits wud be his downfall Its just all very poignant writin thruout, and i love how watchin In Deep Geek and others has rly helped to highlight those details for me even more clearly

[@camp002]

that was how Tolken viewed evil that it was its own worst enemy and would destroy itself though its actions

[@Lenn998]

I don't think Frodo actually told Faramir what happened between him and Boromir. He only deduced from the vague things Frodo said that Boromir tried to take the ring. Anyway, unlike his brother, he was a pure-blooded Númenórean and, like Aragorn, didn't seem to be that interested in the ring in the first place. @baer0083 I'm not sure if Denethor even knew the ring existed. He was extremely jealous of his power and disliked Gandalf, who, as he saw it, was plotting to replace him with Aragorn. However, I think it was more than anything the despair from being manipulated by Sauron through the palantír that explains his final deeds.

[@Nikolas_Davis]

Ah, yes. Reminds me of Mephistopheles' words to Faust, in Goethe's _Faust_ : "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good"

[@semperclassic]

I've always found Tolkien's use of "The Shire" has ingeniously hilarious. It's like saying "I live in The County". Hearing "The Shire" in England would leave the Nazgul equally perplexed, because they'd wonder "which shire?".

[@arnesaknussemm2427]

Lanarkshire, Morayshire, Roxburghshire? Oh, not just England Bro.

[@Casmaniac]

Worcocechestershire (lol)

[@Tachizuu]

@@Casmaniac Wor*clears throat*shire

[@iou0]

ummahshire

[@BobisOnlyBob]

@@Casmaniac wuss-ter-sheer!

[@darenallisonyoung8568]

The Shire is 50k sq km. That's about the size of Bosnia and Herzogovina. Mordor was about 2700 km (1700 mi) from the Shire. That's about the same distance as that between Dublin, Ireland, and Mostar, Bosnia and Herzogovina. Consider Medieval travel and communications technologies. So let's say Máel Sechnaill mac Domnaill, the High King of Ireland, was missing his magic ring, and someone told him it was in Stolac (one of the oldest settlements in the region of Herzogovina). Máel sends out his most trusted band of warriors to find the place. Yeah, that's going to take many months, if not years.

[@altejoh]

While i LOVE this analogy, the perplexing part is not that the king of ireland sent warriors to find it... but that one of the angels that helped create the universe sent them to find it. A reasonable assumption might be that said angel would remember where god put it, lol.

[@offensivename11]

Is Hobbiton one of the bigger communities in the Shire? If it isn't, I'm just inagining said Irish Nazgul looking around in Sarajevo or Mostar when all along the ring's in a tiny village in the middle of the Republika Srspska.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

That's an awesome excuse to write Maél Sechnaill! How about we compare the quest to the Roman expedition to find the source of the Nile next?

[@alexmckee4683]

@@offensivename11 Michel Delving appears to be the largest town in the Shire, and Bywater a significant one. Hobbiton is near to Bywater. Given the name of Hobbiton, literally Hobbit-town, it's probably one of the oldest and most significant settlements but not necessarily big. Winchester is a notably important English town but nowhere near as big or as important today as, for example, London.

[@TheBigMclargehuge]

Okay now do that again with countries people know

[@nicodemusedwards6931]

Probably for the same reason most people don’t know what Danville, Kentucky is. Edit: If you DO know where and what Danville, Kentucky is… congrats. You’re Gandalf now.

[@susanfisher4344]

Ha, ha! Except Centre College alums.

[@kurolotus4851]

Although if Danville, Kentucky was populated with hobbits, most people would have likely at least heard about it (though they might not remember places name)😅

[@wp9310]

Are the Ent Wives there?

[@PharaohDom]

😂😂😂 10/10 answer. No notes.

[@highlandoutsider]

"your love of the halflings moonshine has clearly slowed your mind" 😅

[@daniels7907]

To Sauron, the land the Shire occupied was simply a part of long-fallen Arnor. There wasn't much left up there. Bree was the largest settlement of Men in the area and it was a town, not a city. Rivendell was close to the Misty Mountains and had a tendency to draw Sauron's attention as the only serious power between the mountains and the Grey Havens. In short, Sauron thought that there was nothing but wilderness where the Shire was. He also had no special power to locate the One Ring, which is why he had to search for it for so many millennia. So even the fact that Bilbo brought it to the Shire didn't mean that Sauron knew it was there. He might have gotten flashes of it being in a general northwestern direction from Mordor. But Sauron expected anybody who had the Ring to try to use it gain power. Neither Gollum nor Bilbo did so. Gollum preferred looking at the Ring to actually wearing it, and Bilbo only put it on occasionally, and never in a highly-visible place like Weathertop. So no empowered ringbearer was there for Sauron to hear tell of. Now, if a Man had found the Ring and gone and tried to build himself a kingdom....

[@hagamapama]

I think one of the biggest holes in Tokleinian scholarship centers around this question: Why do people think the Ring wanted to be found? The Ring would have the embodiment of Sauron's power nd will to dominate. why should it accept the role of a servant? The Ring prefers small folk that it can dominate, and be the master. It would rather destroy itself than accept a permanently subordinate role. One of the Ring's first acts of betrayal was to be so easily separated from Sauron. Personally I think this was deliberate, Sauron never considered the full implications of the ring having a mind and will of its own, and it's pretty clear that the Ring hated the idea of going back to a slave that it was done with. That doesn't just mean Smeagol, it also means Sauron. Sauron is a used up slave as far as the Ring is concerned, nothing more And the Ring threatened to throw itself into the fire and take Smeagol with it if Smeagol ever gained possession of it again. A threat it made good on. Personally I suspect that the Ring saw it was out of options. Either be forced back onto Sauron's hand and accept his domination, or destroy itself. It chose to destroy itself. (remember, a ringbearer cannot easily consciously choose to try to destroy the Ring)

[@daniels7907]

@@hagamapama - Where do you get the sense that the Ring possessed such a developed intelligence? We don't see that in the story. Yes, it does turn on bearers other than Sauron. But it never turned on Sauron itself. He was literally dying (again) when Isildur cut it from his finger. The ring then betrayed Isildur. But it wasn't intelligent enough to do so in a good location where another bearer would easily find it. The Ring is incapable of moving. If it were intelligent, then why would it want to be lost in the water for so long? Then it got stuck with Hobbit bearers who never used it to gain power. If it were intelligent, I would expect it to find a way to get itself onto Gandalf's, Saruman's, or Aragorn's fingers. People it could corrupt and gain glory as via powerful ringbearers.

[@CanadianWolverine]

I’ve also read that due to details from Silmarillion that, a theory goes that Valar that are lords of water and earth were working against discordance from Melkor like The One Ring and so it being in a river, under a hill or under a mountain potentially made it much, much harder to find with a Palantir.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

Rivendell is a good point, from his perspective hobbits next door to Rivendell would be like one of us seeing a mouse standing next to a Komodo Dragon. You're not going to notice the mouse even exists unless the dragon does.

[@daniels7907]

@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat - Exactly. The Ring was only in Rivendell for the Council of Elrond. Not long enough for it to tempt anybody and catch Sauron's attention. But the Elves were the last significant power in Eriador and that was what Sauron was keeping his eye on. In a sense, Rivendell provided at least as much protection as the Dunedain Rangers of the North. If only because Sauron would have seen them as the most likely candidates in the region to acquire the Ring, if anybody did.

[@lmr4403]

One of the funny things is that Bilbo's job-description of "thief" for the dwarves on their journey in The Hobbit, also may have helped him when Sauron's emissary was looking for a "thief" named Baggins in the Shire. The dwarves knew he was specifically looking for their friend Bilbo and not some far away relative of Bilbo not worth traveling all the way to the elves in Rivendell for.

[@ghyslainabel]

His job description was 'burglar'.

[@CryptidRenfri]

​@@ghyslainabeleither way, it's essentially the same thing and the dwarves would have definitely known it meant Bilbo.

[@daniels7907]

@@CryptidRenfri - But the Dwarves would not have cared to help Sauron. They were around in the First Age and remembered that Sauron was on the side of the dragons back then. They all served Morgoth after all. I doubt that they trusted any "gifts" Sauron might offer them. He would, after all, covet Erebor for it's wealth and as a strong fortress in the north, which he might steal and turn into another Moria.

[@CryptidRenfri]

@@daniels7907 oh, of that I'm fully aware. I'm just saying that they definitely would have known who Sauron was looking for. I'm sure they would have refused to help regardless of who was being sought.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Well spotted! I wonder how the dwarves took to the insinuation that they are familiar with a thief

[@ValueNetwork]

I don’t think “Gollum told Sauron more than just baggins and shire” like you suggest here, I think Gollum simply allowed Sauron to connect the dots. The battle of the 5 armies and the death of Smaug obviously became news across middle earth, so Sauron could’ve known that Hobbits existed and known that one took part in the recent recapture of the lonely mountain by the dwarfs. But because the hobbits were a minor player in the history of middle earth he simply didn’t care for them. But when he captured Gollum he made the (correct) assumption that the Hobbit who was recently part of that quest did so using the power of the ring. It’s telling that he sent his emissaries to the lonely mountain first before following up on the “Shire” lead, it’s entirely likely that Sauron thought the hobbit had stayed with the Dwarfs and enjoyed all of the treasures of Smaug. The isolated nature of the hobbits would be completely alien to him.

[@mandowarrior123]

It may even be why Sauron invaded as many dwarven cities as he could. Underground little people who work with dwarfs, where would they hide the ring but a secret dwarf fortress. The fact he knows them as thieves would also suggest to him they'd succumb to the ring and it would corrupt the area.

[@Ulfcytel]

The events around the Lonely Mountain would largely be know to the outside world as a battle between the Dwarves/Men of Dale, the Elves of Mirkwood and Smaug/the Orcs. Bilbo's prominent contribution was known to relatively few people and is, I think, less likely to have made many of the popular "news reports", by which Sauron would have heard the information. The dwarves would have had reason to play it down (the awkwardness with the Arkenstone, plus their own pride), he didn't kill Smaug and he wasn't a leader in the Battle of Five Armies. Above all, Bilbo was not actively seeking great fame. Sauron may not have even known that Bilbo existed before the interrogation of Gollum gave him a name and a sudden importance.

[@qqw743]

I don't think Gollum "allowing Sauron to connect the dots" accurately describes the dynamics of the relationship. Sauron is a demigod who was torturing the weak-minded Gollum. Sauron was was always going to find out everything Gollum knew. One does not simply walk into Mordor and allow Sauron to connect dots.

[@Ulfcytel]

@@qqw743 On the other hand, Sauron was neither all-knowing nor telepathic. This was likely the first time he'd ever heard of hobbits (a very minor race who had heretofore never been of any prominence). Plus he only learnt what Gollum *told* , not everything he knew. Gollum had his own powerful reasons for wanting to keep the ring from being found by Sauron and he had the split personality to hide behind. Even sophisticated torture doesn't completely break everyone - and Gollum was certainly tough.

[@qqw743]

@@Ulfcytel Yes and no. In LOTR saw what Saruman and Sauron could do with weak minds whether in person or by Palantir. Sauron isn't telepathic, but it seems to me that when he has Gollum on the rack, Sauron's gonna learn a whole heck of a lot about anything he wants to learn about.

[@Svensk7119]

The Shire didn't have a reputation for anything. For all of the time of Sauron, it simply had been a portion of Arnor. It was settled in the Seventeenth Century of the Third Age. After that, it never really gained any notoriety 'til Saruman started spying on Gandalf.

[@mikeynth7919]

And after the fall of Arthedain, Sauron pretty much ignored Eriador, concentrating on taking down Gondor.

[@dandiehm8414]

Before Thorin met Bilbo even he considered Hobbits just "rustic villagers that worked the fields on either side of the Ancient Dwarf road". Gimli also says "one of these days I need to visit this Shire of yours" even though he had doubtless passed through the Shire on his many travels as a young dwarf. He didn't even know the name of the region. (all from Unfinished Tales)

[@daniels7907]

@@mikeynth7919 - Exactly. This is why the Witch-king and the rest of the Nazgul relocated to Minas Morgul, rather than trying to rebuild Angmar. Eriador was too sparsely populated to be worth putting spies, much less soldiers there. The Elves were leaving via the Grey Havens and Sauron wanted them to leave so that he wouldn't have to bother with them again. Thus, he left Eriador alone for a thousand years because the actual kingdoms closer to Mordor were his primary focus. He could always circle back and conquer Eriador once the Elves were gone and the region was even more sparsely populated, thus requiring less of his forces to annex to his empire.

[@EternalKHFan0]

​@@daniels7907 I think you mean Angmar, since Angband was Melkor's fortress back in the First Age.

[@daniels7907]

@@EternalKHFan0 - Sorry, typo.

[@Darkwintre]

I always assumed it was only known as the Shire to Hobbits and the other races had their own name for that location. The difference was whether anyone realised it was the same place! Seriously why would Sauron be interested in a farming community given his power hungry ways? I suspect Saruman only found out after going to such measures to secure their version of tobacco!

[@Aloddff]

I like that

[@coreyander286]

Sauron should have been interested in Bree. Bree is the largest Mannish settlement in Eriador, it seems. If you want to hear whispers of movements in Eriador, Rivendell, Grey Havens, traveling Dwarves, Rangers, your best bet is to place an agent in Bree to report gossip. And if you've got someone in Barad-dur compiling information from sources in Bree, they might be expected to know about Hobbits and the Shire. I guess I'm kind of imagining a Mordor Intelligence Agency World Factbook. Which considering the Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps might not be so far-fetched.

[@RonJohn63]

@@coreyander286 "Bree is the largest Mannish settlement in Eriador". Biggest can still be pretty small. "And if you've got someone in Barad-dur compiling information from sources in Bree"... but do you?

[@RonJohn63]

Remember that shire just means "county".

[@ImNotLuthien]

@@RonJohn63 I dont know if you are smoking or something, but Bree is actually pretty way more famous than the rest of places there. Not to mention one of the oldest. Shit has been there more than a thousand years before the Shire was even a thought. Besides its well known Elves, Dwarfs and of course men know it. So its a pretty valid point.

[@nikosmanarolis9962]

I remember you saying that at first it sounded strange that Sauron didnt know about the Shire in an earlier video and that perhaps it would make for a good video in the future ... and now here we are! You were right by the way , great video!

[@hunterwyeth]

This channel is basically SEO but I love it

[@frankphillips7436]

The fact that Saroman knew about the Shire was a comment I made in a previous video where it was suggested he was unaware of the location. However, it was spelled out that he had spies in Bree and certainly knew where the Shire was. It was not stated that he didn’t know but only that he told the Nazgûl that he didn’t know. Thank you for including that he was in fact lying. Great work as always!

[@conolade3290]

I think it's more that Gandalf would have told him of it during their councils

[@Destroyer94100]

The Shire only existing because of the actions of Sauron just proves that evil destroys itself.

[@ceejay0137]

Or at least works against itself: a major theme in Tolkien's writing. "Oft evil will shall evil mar."

[@ImNotLuthien]

Entire Shit is protected so well due to Sauron, than Hobbits even forgot they were protected lmao. Sauron dumbass.

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

Oft evil will shall evil mar

[@t_k_blitz4837]

Could it get a move on, though?

[@Jim-Mc]

​@@t_k_blitz4837Amen

[@Joe-h4i1939]

With the amount of pipe weed that gets smoked in the shire I’m surprised that the Nazgûl could not see the smoke clouds coming from there😂

[@valerianmonye402]

😂

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Like a certain local park on 4/20...

[@jdova4944]

I laughed out loud

[@henry7001]

Indeed, with plumes of smoke rising from the shire rivalling that of mount doom.

[@wompus_king]

Hobbits vape

[@svensulzmann4282]

Sauron didn’t care because it wasn’t important. Sauron’s hate fueled logic is just focusing on the formidable enemies making him blind for the small and weak.

[@owenwainer5282]

You focus a bit on Sauron but I feel it's worth also mentioning Angmar. The Witch King settled in Angmar at around 1300 of the Third Age. He did have and influence on the east side of the Misty Mountains so the hobbits were sandwiched between evil - even more reason to leave - but more importantly on the west of the misty mountains his wars against the kingdoms of men in the north depleted the population. It also gives some more reason why Sauron hadn't heard of the Shire - he probably already knew that region as Athedain. While they did overlap slightly - the Shire was founded in 1600 and Angmar fell in 1975 - the shire was presumably not very established then and was just a sparsely inhabited part of the kingdom they'd just devastated and not a part that sent many soldiers.

[@baer0083]

Its very likely that, after the fall of Anor, the whole focus shifted to the events east of the misty mountains. As long as no Numenoreans would try to repopulate former Arnor, it was dead for sauron. He was focusing on destroying what was left of the men of the west.

[@LatakiaSmkr]

That's what I find a bit odd. Shouldn't the Witch King possess at least some knowledge regarding that halfling folk establishing there? Once Sauron found out about what that thief looks like, wouldn't that info ring some bells for his second in command? Were hobbits so unheard of, even in the vicinity? Not any piece of intel about some funny little men ever came to the ears of Angmar's spies?

[@marieroberts5664]

​@@LatakiaSmkr exactly. Those who knew of halflings were either dead (the royal court, who gave permission to settle and repopulate the Shire) or local peasants like the Bree Men (beneath notice) or the Northmen (not coming into this present tale, besides they didn't ask them about anything).

[@DerDai]

That's the main question i was wondering about half the video, good points Not to mention that a) iirc it's not even confirmed if the Hobbits actually participated in the war or if it was just a myth that they sent some archers b) if they were there, then the soldiers/orcs/whatever of Angmar who killed the few hobbit archers that were present had to know they're not weird dwarfs or young small humans to be able to report it c) the possibility of those creatures reporting such detail to the witch king is rather small d) knowing that there's a people of small human-like creatures doesn't lead to knowing the name "shire" e) the fall of Angmar was more than 1000 years ago, so even if the Witch King was told, he might have forgotten such tiny unimportant detail over such a long time (Edit: typo)

[@marieroberts5664]

@@DerDai it's sad though. If they did send a few archers to the help of the king, they were too late to be noticed by the defenders, and likely were overwhelmed by the marauding orcs, since it is said they never returned. Hobbit archers are good,but the reach of their bows would be shorter than their Mannish counterparts.

[@raptor4916]

00:59 A circle with the radius of 80 miles is slightly bigger than 20000 sq miles or a square with a 141 mile side length, so no its not that surprising, square numbers tend to be bigger than people think.

[@HarringtonsApocy]

That’s…still really really big. Like Los Angeles is only 44 miles side length. 20,000sq miles seems big cause it is, the Shire is roughly the size of Ireland

[@istari0]

At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf said he thought that initially (when Sauron first re-merged in the 3td Age), Sauron thought the Ring had been destroyed and it was only sometime later he decided it wasn't but even then he had little idea where it was; all he knew was that no one had emerged and was using it. It's not even clear that he initially picked Dol Goldur because of its proximity to the Gladden Fields. The Shire wasn't known as The Shire until T.A. 1600 when the Hobbits settled there and Sauron hadn't been in Eriador since the War of the Elves and Sauron in the mid-2nd Age. Even during the Angmar wars, there's no sign the Witch King or any of his forces went as far as the Shire before their ultimate defeat.

[@nathanthanatos3743]

The closest the Witch-king got was to the moors where he placed the Barrow-wights; not too far from the Shire, but not too close, on the other side of Tom Bombadil's domain. So not a place for hobbits to go in the ordinary, and in extroardinary times they would have taken pains to avoid such a place. So the Witch-king, even if he was in a position to check up on his servants, wouldn't have gotten much info about hobbits from them.

[@InsaneRabbitDaddy]

You're right. In the book, Sauron, Gandalf tells us, thought Isildur had destroyed the Ring. It was only after he captured Gollum that he learnt it wasn't destroyed, that Gollum had found it, and lost it again, and to whom it had been lost.

[@maximus3160]

@@InsaneRabbitDaddy not true. Sauron knew beforehand. His servants were searching the Gladden Fields for it, which was the reason Saruman agreed to assault Dol Goldur in 2941. Try again...

[@Adrian7070-h4g]

Exactly had it been destroyed sauron would be undone

[@Crafty_Spirit]

I agree that there is no sign of Angmar's forces in the Shire but that seems to require an explanation, they had raided Cardolan and conquered the cities of Arthedain. Hobbits according to their oral history sent archers to fight against Angmar. I think it's possible that Angmar forces passed through the Shire only to find it seemingly abandoned (the Hobbits would hide).

[@mboettcher349]

The shire is a little smaller than West Virginia in the US or Croatia in Europe.

[@adriananic8258]

That is huge! Thpught itnwas a village and some forrest

[@moritamikamikara3879]

Bag end is in Hobbiton, but there are many more towns and things

[@baer0083]

Thats incredible! Thought it would be much smaller.

[@pinballmike1]

Wow. I had the impression that it was maybe only 10 or 20 miles in diameter.

[@mboettcher349]

I did a little exta digging and it's based, including in size, on the English Midlands, which is where Tolkien grew up.

[@crowbringer]

What the hell!? I just came across your channel like 3 hours ago and while watching your videos I was wondering "Why hadn't Sauron heard of the Shire?" after he had fought and roamed the lands of the Middle Earth for centuries. And now you post this video. Thanks!!

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

The megacorps are reading your mind, it seems

[@crowbringer]

@@migarsormrapophis2755 men, why didn't they send this nice girl my way yet!?

[@christophcookit6334]

It just didn't show up in his feed on his EyePhone. He was in another bubble. Palantir social media isn't real life.

[@Jack-496]

One of my favorite things about Tolkien is how so many of the answers to these sorts of questions only make just enough sense. Not to say there isn’t enough here for Sauron to not have known the location of the Shire, because there definitely is and especially with that last detail about their migration. But so often with Tolkien, I feel as though he gives just enough reason for everyone to be satisfied, but in not going further, he gives a little hint at what he thinks. So often will this sort of thing come up, like why Bilbo was first chosen by Gandalf, or why Sauron couldn’t see Bilbo. Sure, there are reasons, but I do think Tolkien’s work has strong themes of fate. If you want to disregard that, Tolkien says fine. But then again, a wizard is never early or late. Everything is for a reason.

[@dingo1547]

Personally I think this is just a rare plot hole. Even if Sauron didn’t have maps that displayed “land of the halflings anywhere in Mordor surely the Witchking would remember where it is. I mean he nearly did a complete conquest of Eriador he would have to know what the people’s and countries of the entire region are. There is no way he didn’t know where the Shire was back then.

[@V_For_Vendettaedits]

@@dingo1547 back then when angmar destroyed arnor, the shire had not yet existed if im not wrong, soo he knew there were lands there, he just didnt knew who occupied those lands

[@dingo1547]

@@V_For_Vendettaedits you are wrong, the shire existed. They are rumored to have sent military forces to fight Angmar. Even if they didn’t they were still vassels of the king. The crown gave the Hobbits most of the shire as a gift. The Hobbits recognized the King as the head of state until Arnor got destroyed for good and they replaced that with the Thain. They still have phrases talking about the king in everyday language according to the prologue.

[@marieroberts5664]

​@@dingo1547 but that's the point...the Witch King wanted the Dunedain of Arnor, the Men. He had taken over Rhudaur, was looking to wipe out Carlodain and eventually once the last Prince of Carlodain was defeated and his people rejoined the Arthodain forces, Bree, as an independent village that sat at the crossroads would scarcely have much meaning to a great military campaign, since he'd have to conquer the King and the major centers and forts, like Annuminas and Weathertop. The movements of fleeing peasants would not have even crossed the Lord of Angmar's mind and since the Shire was established deep in Arnor and had no military purpose, since the battles were in the North by Lindon only once the Witch King won (and remember, he lost, so never had to go looking for slaves or food) would administration of the remains of the kingdom begin. So no, the fertile little backwater that sat at the upper terminus of the Greenway, that had been populated by Arnor until the plague, would not have been on the Witch King's radar until he needed it ...and he never needed it.

[@blackfalcon1324]

so glad you reuploaded this video, I was going to show it to a friend a few months back and I couldnt find it!!!!!!!!

[@varundattoo9512]

Its the only peeve I have with the excellent adaptations the Jackson movies are. The Dunedain/rangers were such an integral part of the story and Aragorn's company, but, they were entirely cut out. I believe their inclusion and the sons of Elrond would have only enhanced the mystique of Aragorn and his legacy.

[@undercoverduck]

The good news: this channel motivated me to read The Silmarillion!:D The bad news: now I need to hold off on watching any more of these amazing videos to avoid spoilers (if you could even call background details from a 50-year-old omnibus 'spoilers'). I honestly don't even mind spoilers. It just feels dumb to purposefully watch an explainer that's likely to partially cover a book I'm currently reading. It feels like asking a waiter what the house's specials are while I'm holding the menu in my hand.

[@JobiWan144]

0:56 For my fellow American viewers, the Shire is about the size of Vermont and New Hampshire together. That might seem pretty small to us, but it's also about 40% of the area of England (i.e., Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland, etc. aren't included). Idk how big the historic kingdoms of Arnor or Arthedain were, but the Shire would have been a sizable chunk of either one.

[@dmk_games]

Imagine medieval times, a warlord in Japan/China/Korea needing to send someone to "Dover". From what I understand a lot of travel overland relied on stopping and asking people... and not all borders were equally porous and communication could be near impossible.

[@CatBitchNami]

And you can see the average Nazgul interrogation in the movie, and it doesn't look efficient.

[@senorbolainas2991]

He didn't have a good travel agent

[@EdMcF1]

Or he used Apple Maps.

[@gerrylamontagne2214]

Love your last point and it’s a subtle one to tease out. It fits with Tolkien’s theme for evil being its own undoing.

[@RaynmanPlays]

It's so very poetic that the Shire only existed because its residents were driven out of their original home by Sauron and that the only reason he did not find the Ring there is because he didn't know that it existed. Tolkein was a master of his craft.

[@greengrendel]

I've always noticed how the early descriptions in the books put in mind of the victorian and edwardian legends of fairies and gnomes living at the end of people's gardens, hiding from the big clumsy humans, right under their noses! You've got to think of the hobbits as being inspired by those, to understand why they've got remarkable hiding powers.

[@arandombard1197]

It's the same hearing "It's in Hit Chin". Who would know about Hitchin in Hertfordshire, England? Most people in England have never heard of the place either.

[@steve354777]

Beautiful paintings of Shire life.

[@LordMerji]

04:33 All those things that happened at the right time was the providence of Iluvatar.

[@markd.s.8625]

also all the evil , the pain, the torture, was all that he was permitting to happen anyway, dunno why youd give an all powerful, knowing and present deity credit for the kind and good things but not the bad.

[@josephchapman9575]

​@@markd.s.8625 Tolkien always peppers his stories with the benevolent hand of Providence.

[@ashleycarvell7221]

A dark lord learns of the shire exactly when he’s supposed to thank you very much

[@adamwelch4336]

Props to the dwarves not rating out Bilbo! 😎

[@reallythatbad1]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure most people have never heard of Gaslight, Colorado.

[@odiums_taint]

doesnt exist

[@diamondsmasher]

I was told it was Catfish, Colorado

[@user-zi5lx6lx5k]

THAT WAS THE BEST VIDEO, IN MY OPINION, THAT YOU'VE EVER DONE ON THIS CHANNEL, ROBERT!!!!! WELL DONE!!!!

[@andyl8055]

Even Radagast sought for a place with the uncouth name of “Shire.”

[@benjfischer]

Flyover country is a thing everywhere I guess. If it’s not NY or LA, it might as well be the moon.

[@Jim-Mc]

And flyover country is what saves the world.

[@wesleyfilms]

Naturally, a place full of tiny people is very hard to notice, being so small.

[@typacsk]

Source: Treebeard

[@nickthepostpunk5766]

This is one of my favourite videos from this channel: really insightful, as ever!

[@jeyfromnowhere]

TOLKIEN MAP VIDEO YES PLEASE

[@HoldandModify]

This series continues to be such a welcome substitute for the horror that Amazon has unleashed. Thank you!

[@DragonRaiderX9]

There's a running thread of actions having consequences beyond our vision in the Lord of the Rings. Frodo escaped the Shire with the One Ring because of the actions of the Rangers, most if not all of whom would have no idea of the disaster narrowly averted. There's the big one with Frodo choosing to spare Golllum, the outcome of which no one could have predicted. And then, we see that Sauron's ceaseless search for the One Ring drove it ever further out of his reach. We can't tell how our actions will impact the world. Best we can do is act with kindness and compassion and hope for the best.

[@nicka731]

3:25 The Dwarves are real ones, like that kid from the Terminator movie where the cop comes into the arcade room.

[@RickardLejonhjarta]

"the ant has no quarrel with the boot"

[@cloudinthewind]

That last point is a gob stopper. And after 40 years a fan it never crossed my mind. If it’s recorded in Tolkiens plans or just an observation of your own, it is brilliant. Thank you for sharing.

[@uncleben6159]

This is a dope video, as are all the others. One topic I have always been curious about, and is more obscure than most, is the existence of the Were-worms. I think a video breaking down the Were-worms would be fascinating.

[@danguee1]

9:22 Of course! I knew this but didn't properly put 2 and 2 together.....

[@apstrike]

I find not having heard of the Shire to be less implausible than the Nazgul arriving at bag end the day after Bilbo left. A more natural question is why do the humans of Bree not talk to the kingdom of Gondor? This is sort of explained in world by the disconnect between Arnor and Gondor, but economically Bree would need to buy everything it couldn't manufacture from Gondor, and the resulting trade would pass along geographic knowledge. It's also a big head scratching that there's a hidden race of little people, and nobody freaks out when this is discovered. Like nobody ever came North from Gondor, saw a Hobbit, thought holy shit, and took that story back home.

[@13thmistral]

Unless you consider that Bree might have mainly got their goods from themselves or all their surrounding areas, with The Shire being economically barely relevant in the regards of both exports and imports.

[@maximus3160]

The day after Bilbo left? Bilbo left in 3001. They only missed him by 20 years...

[@willc1294]

Catch a hobbit and he'll tell you where his stash of gold is 😉

[@apstrike]

* Frodo :-|

[@apstrike]

@@13thmistral Yes, but hobbits live in Bree. Anyone coming north from Gondor would meet them. And while Bree is a small and largely self-sufficient town, it's odd that no trader ever noticed them.

[@sophdog1678]

The Hobbits wanted to make themselves scarce, and they succeeded. Just the concept of halflings was a new experience for many of the peoples they met on their travels.

[@ryang8915]

Put a travellers guide to Westeros back on your channel

[@robinenbernhard]

Yea I miss so much

[@shirleymcdonald2777]

Oh yes please master Robert 🙏

[@herpderptheshep]

That closing thought is a wonderful example of Tolkien's genius. wheels within wheels, as it were

[@isatche]

I always felt the Shire is what locals call it, and it was written in a different way in maps in the east. That's why they didn't know where Shire is, because it could be anywhere from their perspective. Similar how Germany is Deutschland.

[@pedersackheim4913]

Makes sense

[@michaelarrowood4315]

A great video that casts light on a lot of questions I've had over the years. Very well done! Note: it's hard to imagine the Shire covering 20,000 square miles! Especially for a place that "feels" in the books like it has a few thousand inhabitants at most, clustered in a few villages/towns. But that's probably an accurate translations of Tolkien's "leagues" or whatever... his maps were fascianting but more illustrative geographical, obviously. A fact that always left me wanting more detail as a young "Lord of the Rings" fan. (Honest confession: I started reading the trilogy exactly 50 years ago, and it consumed me for quite a few years/decades. But I always found the hobbits and the Shire the most annoying and boring part of the whole story. I know, I know, I know... hobbits are precisely the Big Point, or Some Such Very Important Thing. Yet I found them tedious in so many ways, and was always glad when the story turned back to the interesting folk who weren't diminutive, incurious, self-satisfied faux English yeomen. Don't judge me...:) )

[@blueshit199]

I mean, Sauron hearing of the Shire is a big plot point in the LOTR, courtesy of Gollum

[@spaceanarchist1107]

I wonder how many other tiny, inconspicuous communities there were in Middle Earth. People who were ignored by Sauron because they didn't produce enough wealth to be worth exploiting, and they weren't strong enough to be worth impressing into his armies. They would remain safe and comfortable, protected by their insignificance like a ring of invisibility -- until the last of the great nations crumbled and the Orcs stormed in to plunder the last fields and burn the last towns.

[@florianlipp5452]

The real question is: Why didn‘t the Witch King know about the Shire? The Shire was established while nearby Angmar was in its prime. And the Hobbits even fought against Angmar. Surly, the Witch King must have had some intelligence on them, right?

[@Spielkalb-von-Sparta]

Hobbits settled in that region since 1601, but the Shire was only established named as such after the fall of The northern kingdom and Angmar. (-> Prologue of LotR, Concerning Hobbits) But yes, the Witchking must have known of Hobbits even if their home wasn't called "the shire" at his time.

[@KP-rg9td]

That! thank you

[@Paolur]

Sauron being the reason for the Shire is just another proof of what Eru told Melkor after his rebellion during the Music: And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

[@justinselgrad1382]

I think it can simply boil down to... If you hand a Californian a map of North America and and ask them to point to Misconsing... How many of them would point to Wisconsin? The native name might not be well known at all by outsiders. And likely gollum only knew the word (which Tolkien translated as "Shire") that Bilbo used.

[@LovleyLemonade]

I love that Sauron, in all of his evil wisdom, had absolutely no clue where or what the hell the Shire was because it was so irrelevant to him beforehand. I can just imagine him saying something along the lines of: "What in the fuck is a Shire?"

[@JKJK109]

You could also think that given the Hobbits penchant for hiding, the Shire itself could have been founded in its location because it was very hard to find. Which begs the question how did Gandalf know it was there, maybe he helped find the location with the Harfoots?

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Gandalf knew Tom Bombadil from way back, and he is more perceptive than most.

[@RainAngel111]

I think it's also relevant that the name "the Shire" is extremely vague. It's like naming a city "Town". Now in the LOTR we don't see any places with names ending in shire like in real like, but clearly it was a common term which is why the hobbits thought to call it that in the first place. "Land of the halflings" might have been a more useful thing for the black riders to ask about, but it could also be misleading as the hobbits used to live in the vales of the anduin as you mentioned. At the end of the day I believe Sauron and the black riders never heard of the shire because they were too self-important and arrogant. When the captain of the Nazghul was once the king of Angmar he could have heard of the halflings and their land, but obviously such things were much too trivial to him.

[@boazplays7239]

I always assumed that Gandalf's ring protected the Shire and kept it in a sort of peaceful stasis, much like Rivendell and Lothlorien. Is there anything in the text that supports this?

[@jburt779]

Uhuh. Good thought though. The ring of fire sustained and strengthened the user, and gave them a sort of ability to encourage and inspire those around them. The shire had been an idyllic place for a very long time prior to that.

[@ImNotLuthien]

No there´s not. Gandalf´s ring is not like a super powerful artifact to do this. Basically his and the ring´s power is to give hope to people in such an effective way and through wisdom. He´s not like "okay bro Ill make you feel better with a ted talk". Literally Gandalf´s magic works through people´s courage. The shire was protected yes, but not by the ring, but Elves, Elves´s magic, and another thing that Im forgetting right now. And it was protected precisely because the battle with Sauron thousands of years ago before the Shire was even a thought. It was so well protected than the hobbits even forgot they were protected or that the race was even in a battle many years ago., therefore their curiosity about Elves but also fear about any external thing beyond the Shire.

[@semperclassic]

I don’t think so. All we know is that unbeknownst to the hobbits, the Rangers (Dunedain) had been guarding the surrounding lands, which allowed them to live in peace. I think their tiny bit of land was just not on the radar of any of the mighty beings or kingdoms of Middle Earth.

[@boazplays7239]

@@semperclassic That was my other theory, but I wouldn't be surprised if the power of gandalf's ring helped to lead and empower the remnant of the Dunedain

[@semperclassic]

@@boazplays7239 You may have a point there. I've always wondered about Gandalf's elven ring. Elrond and Galadriel used their rings to protect Lorien and Imladris, but Gandalf didn't have a realm and the powers of Narya are, well, vague. But then again, what we consider "magic" is just "nature" for the elves.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

It's weird thinking of the logistics side of Sauron's operations. Just picture the Nazgul puzzling over a map and some of them asking the Witch King how *he* didn't know of the Shire, only for him to snap that he had more important things to pay attention to than the goings on of former Arnor when he *thought* the line of Isildur had been taken care of.

[@luudest]

4:30 Gandalf: „Never had I made a bigger mistake in my life“ (going to Saruman instead of going to Frodo“)

[@mt_baldwin]

I think a vid on the size of middle earth would be fascinating and be very useful. I've done this and the area traveled in the books is huge, even to my american eyes. I've sized and overlayed a map of middle Middle Earth over a map of the US and it puts things into much better perspective. The Shire was on the borders of where the states Idaho, Oregon and Nevada meet and Mount Doom was in north Texas near the eastern part of the panhandle. This is quite a journey Frodo took.

[@Joybuzzard]

The first part of 'Fellowship' talks about certain people in the shire harvesting large amounts of pipe weed and sending it somewhere. In 'Two Towers' it's revealed that Saruman has been buying pipe weed from the shire and it has something to do with process of making the Uruk Hai able to be in sunlight. That's why they have barrels of pipe weed to smoke in Isengard.

[@dandiehm8414]

No - it doesn''t say that at all in the Fellowship of the Ring. And there is no relation at all to Pipeweed and the Uruk Hai. It is specifically said to be for Saruman's private use.

[@Flara555]

Robert, please reupload the "Did Pippin save Middle Earth" video! it's one of my favourite lullabys.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a testament to the depth of Tolkien's creation. Which makes it easier to understand why the Amazon satire of his work is so reviled by his fans.

[@lifesacardgame6454]

Wow. I love your conclusion.

[@kyletaylor13]

I mean, I had the same questions about Gondolin... like, you have flying dragons, how did you miss it??

[@malachiwatford8729]

Oh yes absolutely a full breakdown of the geography of the lands of Tolkien’s works is something I’d nerd out over lol please do

[@QuantumHistorian]

Is this a reupload? I could swear I watched this video recently...

[@JohnyG29]

Yeah, I think so. There's only so many videos one can make on this stuff without repetition.

[@kodiwhite3026]

He deleted most of his videos awhile back. Looks like hes been slowly re uploading them

[@QuantumHistorian]

@@kodiwhite3026 That explains. I thought I was just suffering from a bout of deja vue. Oh well, time to unsubscribe if he's just bumping his own content (and I'm not interested in GoT stuff anyway).

[@jeffcordova9633]

As a kid before I read the book but saw the first movie .. I was always bugging my father about it but his answer was "do I look like Tolkein to you?!??! 😂😂😂😂 my father would have loved your videos Robert!!!

[@JohnSmith-rp8uh]

A little smaller than West Virginia

[@EdMcF1]

But with fewer opiates, thankfully. Let's hope for the best for West.

[@JohnSmith-rp8uh]

@@EdMcF1 😂

[@bundayeti]

Almost Heaven, The Shire East of the Blue mountains, Brandywine river. Life is old there...

[@1th_to_comment.]

​@@bundayeti older than trees, younger than Bombadil, something something breeze

[@riddleston565]

Your a legend man, keep this up, umbelievable

[@mikolajtrzeciecki1188]

There is power still, of an yet unknown kind, in rural communities of this old continent.

[@markdowse3572]

Also, "The Shire" is so ambiguous a name. It doesn't suggest any location, so it could be anywhere! 😮 Another wonder video telling another fascinating part of this amazing story. 👍 Thank you, Sir. M 🦘🏏😎

[@ktwang986]

Another thoroughly enjoyable episode, thank you.

[@Ratatoskie]

It's not surprising at all that Sauron didn't know anything about the shire. We're so used to being able to find almost any information on anything with little more than a name and a few good keywords because of the internet, but for most of human history anything more than a few weeks away by horse might as well be myth and legend for most people.

[@SPIKESPIEGEL1969]

Video request: what is Earendil doing up in the sky? Is it purgatory for him? Does he eat? Sleep? Or doomed to always sail his ship?

[@mrsamaritan6881]

One thing to remember is that the Shire didn't really become a thing until AFTER Arnor fell. And with the Northern Kingdom gone, Sauron no longer had any interest in Eriador. While the Rangers did keep evil creatures out, they were not so successful when it came to evil men. Hense Saruman's spies in Bree, and even proto Uruk-Hai (the so called "goblin men"). But since Arnor wasn't a threat and no new kingdom ever rose in its place, the lands about the Shire were simply unimportant at that time.

[@maximus3160]

Yea... no. The Shire was founded in 1601 TA. Arnor didn't fall until 1974 TA.

[@bulletproof890]

Great video. Thanks Robert.

[@CartoonHero1986]

I think the simplest answer as to why he couldn't locate the Shire for the longest time was because The Shire and its borders only came about in Sauron's intermissions between darklord and threat to all Middle Earth. At the end of the Second Age when he was most active it was a former Kingdom of Men gifted to the Hobbits, between the end of the second age and the nearing of the end of the third age was when this land transitioned to being "The Shire" without many races of consequence really taking much notice that the Shire and the Hobbit Thanes filled in the power gap that was left when the race of men lost their hold over the territory.

[@RainerLP]

I always thought of it like finding a modern/new country and all you have is a map from 1912.

[@dandiehm8414]

@@RainerLP Close, its more like you only had a map from the year 1088 BC. Sauron himself hadn't been anywhere near the Shire's location for about 3000 years.

[@RainerLP]

@@dandiehm8414 I am not sure how much the borders changed between those two points in middle earth compared to the same timespan here. I just thought the borderchanges from 1912 to now would be similar to that of middle earth. Some Nations are the same but in a different shape but a lot of new nations that belonged to empires are there.

[@maximus3160]

The WitchKing certainly would have known what the Shire was. It existed for almost 400 years before he finally destroyed the North Kingdom.

[@dandiehm8414]

@@maximus3160 But it was not commonly known as The Shire. "Shire" simply means "Country". Its like saying "I'm going into town this afternoon". Someone from a hundred miles away wouldn't know what town you were talking about.

[@mysillynick]

Another bang up job, Robert.

[@Armakk]

Never understood how Sauron knew how to parse Gollum's words. "Shire Baggins" could be a full name, a place, a place & a name, or a name & a place. How did Sauron know to look for a place called "shire" and not a place called "baggins"?

[@mateuszslawinski1990]

Dumb version: he ordered his Nazgul minions to repeat those words to everyone they meet hoping someone would help them. More probable version: "Shire Baggins" was important and was followed by further hours of prosecution/interrogation/torture, but Gandalf just omits this as something obvious.

[@turn5990]

You explained that the Nazgul were enroute to Rohan, but stopped at Grima. Can you donate story on if the Nazgul did reach Rohan?? That would be a very intriguing story!!!

[@cristianh.5133]

Sauron either didn't pay attention in geography class or was schooled in the US.

[@parsifal6094]

Hi Robert, maybe this could be a future video-topic: what is the currency of Middle-Earth? Is there any at all? We know that the dwarves never done things for free, but they accepted jewlery as payment. And that Smaug lay on a mountain of gold. Were there also coins? Did men use coins? When the hobbits went to Bree, did they just get their ale for free in the inn? Or the Green Dragon in the Shire? How could it support itself without any kind of payment? I'd love you to elaborate on this topic some day!

[@geoff8737]

Why didnt the Witch-king of Angmar know about Hobbits? Angmar was in North east Arnor. His reign 1300-1975. Hobbits settled in the Shire 1601 Third Age.

[@hankfay3230]

While I find the deep analysis Deep Geek gives very thorough and intriguing, it is important to consider Tolkien’s mastery as a storyteller. Yes, this video makes a strong case for it being plausible that Sauron has no clue where the Shire is. However, as a storyteller, Tolkien uses the Nazgûl’s uncertainty to create suspense. Yes, Tolkien created a world of remarkable consistency, but many of his choices as a writer were made to create a more compelling story.

[@monsierlemaire8282]

Amazing narration, on top of everything else. I want to hire you to narrate the book I'm writing!

[@Touma134]

Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Saurumon, Legolas, Grimly, whatever wyrmtongue...Tom. gotta love when you get these random ass bland names beside all these fantasy names.

[@DraconimLt]

One could say that the will of Eru delayed them just enough.

[@Wrugoin13]

I always get so many new nuggets of information to chew on from these video essays. The shire is nearly 50,000 sq/km? Mind blown. I was also unaware just how long the black riders were looking for the shire. The films make it seem as though very little time passes from the point of Bilbo leaving the ring to frodo, to Sam and Frodo setting out for the Inn of the Prancing Pony.