FANTASY WITHOUT TOLKIEN?! - Let's Ponder

You ask me hard-hitting questions, I do my best to answer them!
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[@rymdalkis]

An author should present their political stance as _questions,_ not as answers

[@chowyee5049]

Jasnah Kholin's ardent atheism is central to the framing of the story in Stormlight Archive yet we all know Sanderson's Mormon.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

*Terry God-emperor of mankind looks away, nervously*

[@remingtonsloan8331]

@@chowyee5049 Mormons are the atheists of Christianity though, so... /s

[@Nemoticon]

@@remingtonsloan8331 Not accurate on any level whatsoever, lol, worst comparison ever

[@kamakazines4901]

100% agree. Make me think, don't tell me what to think.

[@GeeOff]

You know, I think fantasy without Tolkien would be a lot worse. Yeah, you might make the case that there would be a lot less Tolkien clones in the market, but Tolkien's biggest contribution IMO is more about making fantasy a more viable product. Without him to lead the way, you have to wonder when fantasy would have become a big market. Sci fi might be a bit bigger as a consequence, and we might not have D&D as it currently exists, without Tolkien's presence.

[@jackinthebox1993]

He definitely raised the bar, and laid out an fantastical blueprint for the genre

[@malcomalexander9437]

DnD would still exist, they only added the Tolkien stuff because that was big in the 70s, and they wanted more money. Technically speaking, DnD is closer to Conan than LotR..

[@christopherbacon1077]

Could also wonder if Howard's side of the genre would have become more dominant than it is because to me he and Tolkien were the two early masters that a lot of later writers not only followed in their footsteps but others works were their reactions to them. For instance LeGuin's Earthsea was a reaction to Tolkien's emphasis on Northern and western Europe. Moorcock's Elric was a reaction to Robert E. Howard's Conan. And so on.

[@robertblume2951]

@@christopherbacon1077 you have the right idea. Before Tolkien there was an entire generation of pulp masters with bigger circulation than anything we have now. Fantasy would have continued in the wierd tales channel's. The short story and stand alone novel would be more prevalent vs trilogy and series.

[@therealGibralter]

Fantasy as we know it today owes more to Jack Vance and Fritz Liebeir than it does to Tolkien.

[@najeebhq]

Daniel : “The pattern demanded a Tolkien! A lot of false Tolkiens sprang up, but once Tolkien was weaved out into the pattern, all these false Tolkiens were pushed into the background!”

[@Conorp77]

Star Wars IS fantasy, with a sci-fi coat of paint.I it has dark lords, magic swords, chosen ones etc

[@typhoonzebra]

For sure. Wizards, sword fighting, evil empire, ghosts, magic, farmboy protagonist, old wise mentor, princess, renegade. Taking away the setting, it's actually pretty by the books, classic fantasy.

[@monkeys7187]

Melodic Meerkat I can agree with that until they were forced to explain eeeeeverything. All the mysticism is lost for Star Wars. Example is that the kyber crystals release an energy that can be harnessed using tech to create sabers. The only thing that’s “magic” still, is the force and I think they’ve separated the force from magic very well. Star Wars is 90% Sci-fi cause the force is a small part of the bigger picture.

[@typhoonzebra]

@@monkeys7187 I thought the crystals resonated with the force and bonded with their users. That seems kinda magical. That and the fact that dark side users need to bleed their crystals, bending them to their will instead of being symbiotic. That seems very fantasy.

[@christopherbacon1077]

Thus the science fantasy sub-genre. It's not just Star Wars, that's just the best known example.

[@Rakonax]

with that mindset, every sci-fi story is fantasy and every fantasy story is sci-fi, cause technology is magic for cavemen. Lets just agree that sci fi is futuristic stuff and fantasy is historic-ish stuff, we have enough genre wars and confusion going on

[@ericbrown912]

Fyi, H.P. Lovecrafts works are considered Public Domain. Both because of the 80+ years since his death, and because he allowed and encouraged their use in life and his family has since his death.

[@SpectrumDT]

Most of his works, at least.

[@pomragrahamate]

With regard to fantasy sans Tolkien, I think fantasy would still be very “fairy tale” esque, such as The King of Elfland’s Daughter and Wood Beyond the World. I actually took an entire class on the progression of the fantasy genre as an undergrad, and when we hit the Tolkien unit, stuff did seem to change. Not as much as you’d think for ALL fantasy, but high fantasy for sure changed a lot.

[@And-ur6ol]

Just to be that a-hole. It is "since", not "sans" ;)

[@pomragrahamate]

Anders Doktor sans=without

[@And-ur6ol]

@@pomragrahamate ok, but the write "without" instead of made up words :D just proves how important that is, that I thought you meant something else ;)

[@88michaelandersen]

@@And-ur6ol The word "sans" has been in English for centuries. It was brought into English by the Normand conquerors who got it from Latin. It is still exceptionally common in Law, Medicine, and academia. In fact, the name "Sans" in the game Untertale comes from the typesetting term "Sans Serif" which means a font without serifs. So the word Sans is still used in popular culture as recently as a few years ago.

[@And-ur6ol]

@@88michaelandersen I have never heard it, and I am currently doing my master thesis in geology, so pretty far in academia I would say. English is my second language, but I write it more than my native. And almost speak it as much as my native. So what I am saying is not that your wrong (You are like entirely correct with that amount of details), but I am saying it is not a commonly used word. But not a made-up word either. I take that back.

[@Mistborn_San]

Let us also not forget that Lovecraft was a result of his upbringing and time. From what I read, he had a whole lot of mental issues on top of that, is it right to label a man like that a monster? I'd say uneducated.

[@christopherbacon1077]

He was a raving bigot even for his time and just because there are reasons for someone being horrible doesn't make them any less so.

[@Mistborn_San]

@@christopherbacon1077 Absolutely, but you can't blame someone who is mentally unwell for being so. Again, this is what I read, in his later years he even wrote about what an absolute prick he was in his younger years, there is always more to a human then a cardboard caricature.

[@laniniak]

not mutually exclusive

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

@@christopherbacon1077 Because he was mostly raised with his grandfather for his main role model, and was such a recluse, he was raised with the worldview a few generations before his time.

[@Yora21]

Lovecraft certainly was severely mentally ill with an awful childhood. Being impoverished North England upper class certainly provided him with the prejudices that he projected his own fears on, but it wasn't like he was considered morally virtues by his contemporaries.

[@therenegadebard3971]

I think world building would be different. Or at minimum would have taken longer to develop. More than the story, which is a typical quest tale, Middle Earth was a mammoth creation of intricacy and detail to this day is rarely matched.

[@natasagajic1061]

Hard agree. I didn't enjoy Hobbit or The Fellowship and am currently forcing myself to read through The Towers since January (dreading the upcoming second half of Frodo whining and Gollum talking about his precious 😅). I find his male characters shallow, stagnant and annoying (except Pippin, he's cool), his female characters (so far) just decorations and his story boring. That being said, his world is meticulously crafted, his maps detailed and his languages highly developed. And while I'm not happy that he popularized some of my least favorite tropes (the dark lord, the chosen one, the haughty manipulative mentor character), I am grateful that he inspired, and still continues to inspire many others, especially with regards on creating fantasy languages.

[@thedarkmasterthedarkmaster]

@@natasagajic1061 To be fair I would say Sauron is a step above the Average Dark Lord in terms of sheer impact

[@geosustento8894]

Terry Pratchett is also another author who has an amazing grasp of social issues. There's virtually no social issue that he hadn't written about

[@dariaprokop6309]

and yet I feel he isn't treated seriously enough. some people can't see beyond the comedy and treat him as "that funny guy from the flat world on turtle".

[@calebmauer1751]

@@dariaprokop6309 Same thing goes for South Park. They've covered so many serious issues in our society and done it so well, but they get no respect from some people.

[@malcomalexander9437]

Personally I think fantasy without Tolkien would be more along the lines of Sword and Sorcery(ala Conan the Barbaian, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Jirel of Joiry). It would also be smaller and be far less popular.

[@Vermbraunt]

I totally agree, i am not sure if it would be much less popular though

[@SonofSethoitae]

Well, there'd be that and there'd be what Tolkien called "fairy stories" like those written by Lord Dunsany and George Macdonald. It's probably be considered two different genres though.

[@ElizaKnows]

Watching last airbender with my kid now, I am so excited to talk to him about the morals.

[@GanchoGod]

I almost wanna have kids just so I can show them incredible stories like ATLA. It would be so much fun to see how they react and discuss the ideas with them

[@Discitus]

I agree with the fantasy without Tolkien. He wasn't the only one building complex worlds, or conlangs, or mythology, and other fantasy authors were popular at the time LOTR exploded. People don't give enough credit to his contemporaries and predecessors. He had a massive influence, but it's not like he invented fantasy or that public interest in fantasy wouldn't have kept growing without him. It may have taken more time to become as big as it is, but we'd have all of the subgenres of fantasy we do today, and video games and tabletop games. They would just be *different* because authors would have been inspired by other tropes and styles.

[@natasagajic1061]

We'd have less obsessions about magical jewelry, hopefully 😊

[@Vermbraunt]

I think pulp fantasy would be way more popular. We would see more Conans and Elrics

[@aesir1ases64]

Who knows, what we do know that Robert Jordan, George Martin, Brandon Sanderson and all those great writers might have never become what they were/are without Tolkien, thats a far more real argument to make than to imagine something as hypothetical as what the scenario of fantasy would be without him.

[@gabbar51ngh]

@@Vermbraunt Tolkien read Conan.

[@Vermbraunt]

@@gabbar51ngh And?

[@tigerlilly8239]

I love when Katara struggles on whether or not to kill the guy that killed her mom and doesn't forgive him in the end. Hello future me has a really good video on it.

[@Yora21]

That little kids TV show is one of the all time titans of fantasy storytelling.

[@UkuleleProductions]

He has good videos on almost all of ATLA xD

[@jimluebke3869]

This world needs more forgiveness in it, though.

[@tigerlilly8239]

@@jimluebke3869 Yes but that doesn't mean that someone that does something like killing a loved one, being a Natzi in world war two or even just average things like betraying trust or cheating is owed your forgiveness. I think that Avatar really gets at the point that there is a middle ground between forgiveness and vengeance. It is up to each individual to decide where their line is and how to react.

[@jimluebke3869]

@@tigerlilly8239 Of course, there is some repentance required on the part of the person doing the wrong, for the moral burden to shift to the person holding the grudge. Katara is a worse person for not having forgiven, in the circumstances presented in that episode.

[@Nasser851000]

fantasy without tolkien is like a hot dog without a sausage

[@ThePreciseClimber]

fantasy without tolkien is like a chicken without an egg

[@supershinigami1]

Like he said there would be another author that would represent the sausage.

[@jackinthebox1993]

@@supershinigami1 i concur

[@MultiKarola]

what about SAPKOWSKI!

[@VicRibeiro777]

@@supershinigami1 ok, from that time period, conjecture who that would have been... Who whould have been the sausage if Tolkien was, say, killed in WW1.

[@Marie45610]

6:56 that's how my cat lays down. It's her otter pose.

[@Vermbraunt]

Here are my answers to these questions Scifi or fantasy: I agree with your answer here, these two genres are massively linked No Tolkien: Well Tolkien had contemporary fantasy writers like C.S. Lewis, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance etc and one of them would likely be the replacement for the father of fantasy. We would also likely not have as many elves or dwarves and almost certainly no or few halflings/hobbits. Full-time booktuber: NA for me Book set in an alternate world with no magic, is it fantasy?: Yes it is in my opinion Lovecraft: Absolutely you should read Lovecraft, first off he is dead so he will not make any money off you buying his works if he was alive this would be different. Secondly, people need to separate the art from the artist you can enjoy his works without believing the things he believed, thirdly he was a product of his time and location it would be stranger if he wasn't a massive xenophobe given were he lived and when (not saying his beliefs are ok but the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.) Changing default setting: Ancient Mediterranean is a good choice but for me, I have to go with the Late Roman Empire, especially the Byzantine empire they are criminally underrepresented in both fantasy and by historians and that is a shame. Most beneficial magic system: I would say SA's magic because of its limitations and for the more destructive magic ie Surgebinding the people are chosen by their spren and limited via Oaths. WoT without its magic would have no plot without its magic so yeah it would be the best world to not have its magic WoT: Musical: Hell yeah Politics and Authors: I kind of dislike having Authors taking a dogmatic stance like Goodkind but I love to have authors explore different systems and weight in on the positives and negatives of the different philosophies and have the reader decide which they like. Avatars moral questions are amazing. I loved how each season is Legend or Korra explored different political ideologies the first season was Communism, the second: theocracy (this one was shit) the third: Anarchy, and the forth fascism. I really liked how the third lead into the fouth especially. Sex is fantasy and scifi: Sex scenes are hard and really awkward to write but it is strange that we do not like it but are fine with intense violence

[@pavelowjohn9167]

When I first got seriously into reading fantasy and sci-fi (early teens, so early to mid-80s), I initially missed the Tolkien train. Instead, I read lots of old Conan stories (Robert E. Howard), Elric, Hawkmoon and Corum (Michael Moorcock), even some Doc Savage and Tarzan. I did, later on, read my share of Terry Brooks and Robert Jordan, but I didn't actually sit down and read LOTR until my mid-20s and didn't read The Hobbit til much later (I did see the animated The Hobbit a few times, though). Naturally, it felt like I had already read both works, since I had played D&D and read my share of 'derivative Tolkien' (yes, I read the Iron Tower and Silver Call trilogies by Dennis McKienan - but hey, I was 14 at the time, I didn't know any better). So it is fairly easy for me to imagine a fantasy genre without Grandfather Tolkien, it would have had much more of a Robert Howard or Fritz Lieber kind of 'pulp swords and sorcery' feel to it, as opposed to the sweeping epic narrative of JRRT. I really like that particular pulp style, but I can see why readers, especially older ones (like me now, cough cough) would prefer a more historical and epic style like Tolkien's, so it makes sense for him to be the one big influence versus the other alternatives. I currently have at least three different versions of LOTR on my shelves, including the mammoth special edition illustrated by Alan Lee, so I think that it's safe to say that I've made up for lost time....

[@mariotrujillo8860]

that was my thought to the T.

[@nviz47]

Seconded :) in sentiment, not examples.

[@ActionNerdGo]

I think we'd see a lot more direct mythology too. Norse, Egyptian and Greek.

[@scottseibert7680]

Tolkien had a huge impact on fantasy when it came to literature, but I think it took awhile before Tolkien's impact was as big on fantasy when presented in other mediums, like movies. In the 80s, you had films like Beastmaster, Krull, Conan, The Sword and the Sorcerer, etc. Just so many films have that pulpy feel and, of course, Conan is directly based off of a pulp character. Most comic books of the fantasy genre were Sword and Sorcery, although not all. I haven't read it, but people have told me Elfquest has a pretty detailed mythology like LOTR does. The movies that do feel more Tolkienesque from that time to me are Willow and The Dark Crystal. Willow feels more like The Hobbit to me and a lot of thought was put into the world of The Dark Crystal. I'm not sure where I put Neverending Story cause it doesn't really remind me of either and that's probably cause it's based on a German novel which probably has totally different influences that us English speakers don't recognize. It makes me think more of something like Narnia though. My main point is that if you were reading fantasy novels in the 80s and 90s, you'd see a lot of Tolkien's influence, but everything else that was fantasy felt more Robert E. Howard inspired.

[@TheLuckless]

I really appreciate your comments regarding sexual content in fantasy stories and shows. I'll admit that I find this a frustrating sticking point in a lot of works, and I think the issue for me comes down to what I, as a reader or viewer, am being asked to take in as entertainment. At some point in GoT, for instance, I don't think I'm expected to be revolted again, and again, and again by the monstrous and inhuman sexual violence that goes on. I think I'm being encouraged to be entertained by it. And I for one take it as a pretty good human development that we sort of recognize we shouldn't be entertained by rape, incest, and brutal violence. I don't think it would reflect well on myself to be amused or excited by such. I don't think this means there's no place for sex in books or films, but I do think authors and filmmakers have a responsibility to be careful. For instance, while I do not find Outlander to be my cup of tea, I thought that the wedding episode was one of the most honest and least cringey love scenes I can recall seeing, and the incredibly self-aware handling of rape and sexual assault was likewise refreshing. I think it's a real challenge in this day and age for fantasy TV writers especially not to let their work devolve into pornography, especially of the violent kind. Writers and directors don't merely meet demand: they shape it; I'd like to see them shape a viewer who doesn't demand to be titillated by men and women being raped and brutalized.

[@jackinthebox1993]

If my professor were watching he would tell you that you'd have a promising career as a politician for that answer, lol! Thanks for posting mine, regardless 😁👍🏿

[@kmk1225]

This series is super cool, especially because I think it fits your channel a lot (and your personality as well), better than Let's Debate (which you should still keep! I just think this is also a super good idea). Keep 'em coming!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that genre is meaningless -- these categories exist for reasons that most people recognize at least intuitively. However, they are useful only to a limited degree, and it's true that many great books ignore the boundaries between genres, so I can agree with the spirit of your argument. Also, well said about Tolkien. Had he not existed, someone else would have filled the need, perhaps a bit differently.

[@malcomalexander9437]

It should be noted that Poul Anderson wrote The Broken Sword, which came out the same year as Fellowship of the Ring, it has the same influences, but is darker, and has a grimmer tone. Also, it is one book rather than the first in a series. So, I suspect that Fantasy would either take more from Robert E. Howard Conan and be a bunch of disconnected adventures, or more like The Broken Sword where the story is a single book. Fantasy books would also be shorter.

[@mbergie1313]

Immediately liked when you said that you’d want the ‘default’ fantasy setting to be Ancient Greece. Tooooootally agree! I’ve been setting aside the month of March to read only literature related to Greece, and I’ve found it quite difficult to find a lot of fantasies set in Ancient Greece. Ditto on ancient Egypt too, though I did read SA Chakraborty’s The City of Brass and really enjoyed it!

[@gloryordeath1165]

My answers to 2 of the questions would be... 1) If you could change the default settings for books what would it be? While I wouldn't want to necessarily make it the default setting I would LOVE to see a great fantasy story written based on Native American lore and beliefs. 2) What magic system could best help the world? Again, I don't know as far as a whole system, but could you imagine the world if healing magic was a real thing. Say you couldn't heal old age but Cancer, Parkinson's, any kind of trauma, basically if a healer is there in time to repair the damage, everyone could die of old age and kids in places like St. Judes can definitely have their chance at life. Really digging this Daniel and can't wait to see more. Keep up the good work

[@Thagomizer]

Fantasy existed before Tolkien, and it absolutely would exist without him. Before Tolkien, we had the work of James Branch Cabell, E. R. Eddison, Lord Dunsany, William Morris, Robert E. Howard, Clarke Ashton Smith, C. L. Moore, and Fritz Leiber. Come to think of it, I would love to hear your take on any of these writers.

[@supershinigami1]

Fantasy without Tolkien? Less people trying to make you dislike other fantasy authors.

[@lifeisbutadreamm]

That only applies to a small subsection of Tolkien fans who have ONLY ever read LOTR, because every fantasy/lotr fan I've ever come across who has actually read the work of other authors would never suggest something like that, trying to dissuade people from reading anyone else's work...

[@gabbar51ngh]

@@lifeisbutadreamm you don't know how much people I have encountered who think fantasy didn't really exist before Tolkien. Completely forgetting Robert e Howard & his conan which Tolkien himself read.

[@zofiabochenska1240]

I feel that I have to defend the sex scenes! They aren't easy to write well, but when that's achieved, they can be very satisfying. And Song of Ice and Fire (not the show - books) are actually doing great job painting character development with it, like Denaerys growth, which is beautifully exemplified by her connection with her sexuality.

[@misheldar]

I just admire your channel! This is the most favourite for me right now! So deep diving into the worlds just breathtaking! I’m the biggest fantasy fan,trying to be updated on all the stuff & reading the books of various fantasy authors but my never beatable are: Tolkien,Martin,Gaiman,Pullman! Their worlds are full of lore,unforgettable characters,amazing settings,fantastic resolutions,overwhelming stories! Thank u for the channel! It’s funny,interesting,thought-provoking and just to the point! Will be checking upon you cos you’re the pro in guiding all over the fantasy world! Lots of inspiration & fantasy insights! Thumbs up!🙏

[@morrigandanae]

The "Murder murder murder spells." got me. I started dying 😂😂

[@Polina-du6ub]

When you started talking about some if the amazing things avatar is able to represent i literally wanted to click the like button a hundred times. I feel not enough people appreciate that master peice there is just so much to avatar and so much thought put into it. Like i have been watching since i was a kid and everytime i learn or notice things i havnt before, it phenomenal. Great video😁

[@midnightlemon4255]

i totally understand the cathartic deletion of entire scenes or chapters. I always make a point of saving the deleted stuff in another folder though, just in case I need to pull from it.

[@RD22TT]

Greek mythology is what got me into fantasy books.

[@natasagajic1061]

Me too!

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

I recall Steven Erikson once said in an interview that he wonders if Tolkein's legacy actually impacted fantasy more negatively than it did positively, because after him so many other fantasy worlds just follow his template with the elves, dwarves, orcs, heroes and dark lords instead of making their own unique worlds.

[@gabebarnes2254]

So excited this is a new series, love your viewpoints & I’m excited to see the next entry in this series

[@Nasser851000]

this was an hour earlier than expected O.o

[@dbillau]

Most of the US Jumped forward an hour for Day Light Savings yesterday.

[@MrNategeo]

@@dbillau is there a part of the us that doesn't participate in DLS?

[@ilitardo160]

Danny “I’m not even mad” Greene

[@kevinalbora562]

If you like Roman history you should definitely give Codex Alera a try, super fun.

[@sarahgoodson9406]

Hot take: Even without Tolkien, fantasy still would have changed and evolved about the same time due to the combined influences of the World Wars and modernism.

[@samueleandriolo4517]

I don't get why someone would care about Lovecraft personality, you're reading his books because you enjoy the great unknown horrors, not for his racist remarks. It's like saying that we shouldn't study Newton because he was a jerk, Heideger because he was a nazi or Voltaire because he was racist too. Our opinions on authors should rise from his works, not from the fact that they were likeable or not

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

Yeah its not like he constantly preaches his racism like a certain fantasy author who really likes Ayn Rand. (Except from the red hook story, we dont talk about red hook)

[@samueleandriolo4517]

@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 I won't judge that because I have never read Terry Goodkind . Speaking of the writer from Providence he spoke ill in his stories about my people too but I simply laugh at that because it's not racist propaganda, but great horror tales with a bit of hatred of a sick and sad man

[@SonofSethoitae]

But like, the racism is in the work. It's not like he was writing stories, and then made entirely separate racist remarks. He baked the racism directly into the narrative.

[@mattjshea]

I completely agree about Avatar. The way it balances mature and complex themes with the light hearted tone of a kids show is truly incredible.

[@andrewreising4541]

I think that one of the reasons that many authors eschew writing sex scenes is that it is one of the most difficult things to write well.

[@nathanpatten3697]

Could also be that alot of authors just haven't had enough good sex to write about it.....

[@Thagomizer]

A well-written sex scene is like receiving a kitten for Christmas. A poorly written sex scene is like receiving half a kitten.

[@SlackwareNVM]

1:02 Just like Tolkien "happened" and we are where we are today, some other great writer "did not happen" and we are where we are today. If it weren't for Tolkien, another writer along with their influential ideas would have been the axis around which modern fantasy would have developed, but the progression of fantasy would still be a fact. As to "Different how?" - who knows. Your best bet is to took at Tolkien's contemporaries or other fantasy writers from the near future, and decide whose ideas would have flourished if they were not shadowed by Tolkien's success. Then again, maybe epic, sprawling, detailed fantasy is such an amazing concept, that it would have cropped up some other time down the line, and we would have taken a different route to the same destination.

[@alemalvi3805]

I am from italy (so sorry for my bad english), and cause corona we cannot go outside anymore. I just wanted to thank you, cause i discovered your channel only recently and devouring your videos is kinda the only thing that keep me from diyng of boredom.

[@JLHoskins]

I think that there will always be writers who are influenced by something. If not by Tolkien then by someone else or something else in the way of ideas. I just don't know what fantasy would look like without Tolkien. I'd say that fantasy would look somewhat the same but I always underestimate just HOW much influence Tolkien has in the fantasy genre.

[@timraup4888]

That pose that Pips takes reminds me of my boy Zephyr. He is a chonky boy and loves lying like that.

[@HarveyGinger]

If you made a drinking game off of fantasy tropes how would it work? What book would you read?

[@debralavoie9095]

I'm going to enjoy these videos. Thanks for all you do.

[@SlowBurnReader]

I really enjoyed this segment, please do more in the future Daniel!

[@staceysantos4564]

Your answers would win you a pageant

[@firesandflowers]

6:45 our orange tabby also lays about with these "bunny paws". I've never had a cat before now that does this!

[@iceTime999]

Regarding the last topic: The scene in _Before They Are Hanged_ with Ferro and Ninefingers was so damn weird and irritating yet funny and made really well character developement even in the chapters afterwards.

[@Erdyn94]

That's excellent to hear your opinion about Greek and Egyptian mythologies being incorporated into fantasy seeing as how that's exactly what I'm doing in the world that I've crafted

[@DrasticSkuba]

I very much agree with the Ancient Greece answer. I find it extremely fascinating

[@malcomalexander9437]

I'd prefer Mesopotamia. Greece is overplayed.

[@charliebaxter]

*Daniel*: "...as Doctor Who would say." *Me, listening to the blood vessels of Whovians in every timeline pop*: [michaeljacksoneatingpopcorn.gif]

[@lrae9519]

Love this! More please. More hmmm, more quandaries, more pip. Great job!!

[@StarspangledHeart]

I love books that are fantasy sci-fi crossovers especially when you start out thinking it's a fantasy and then find out later that in the distant past, the ancestors of the people you are reading about were technologically advanced and traveled in spaceships. It is really hard to give/get recommendations for this though since it's a major spoiler. Also, yes to more books based off of ancient Egyptian mythology!

[@christopherbacon1077]

Anne McCaffrey's Pern books come to mind

[@StarspangledHeart]

@@christopherbacon1077 Yes! I love the way Anne McCaffrey mixes sci-fi and fantasy in the Pern series. :)

[@swordfish1929]

4:36 I've been thinking about writing something set in Hellenistic Egypt. I'm doing my Masters in ancient history with a focus on that time period and have been inspired to write some fiction as well as papers

[@SamanthaPlansandReads]

If you're looking for a fantasy series based on a Mediterranean/Greek setting, check out The Queen's Thief series by Megan Whalen Turner. The first one reads a little younger, as we follow the MC from when he is a younger teen into adulthood, but has a classic fantasy style that I think makes it easy to enjoy at any age. The series quickly ages up after the first one. The setting and mythology are inspired by ancient Greece, though the author does construct her own unique mythology for the series. She's been writing the series for almost 25 years and the final one is coming out later this year. They are just SO GOOD. An Ember in the Ashes by Sabaa Tahir is inspired by ancient Rome and, while it's YA, I think has a lot of crossover appeal as the characters are basically adults. It's brutally bloody and has great characters.

[@wesleyhughes3731]

Single best thing about this channel.... the outro music. Thatshit is crisp 👌👌👌

[@rachelkraft1138]

Thank you! My brother and I were discussing this just the other day and he asked if I thought Star Wars is fantasy or sci-fi. I said sci fantasy and he said I was dodging the question. But unless it's hard sci-fi (and sometimes even if it is) there's going to be fantasy elements to most sci-fi. It's imagining possibilities. Even a century ago a lot of what we have with modern technology and society would have been considered fantasy.

[@JoelAdamson]

Genre isn't just marketing. It tells you what kind of book it is, in a very specific way. If you picked up Infinite Jest from the scifi-fantasy section, you'd be confused, even if in a hair-splitting genre demarcation discussion, you could make the case that it's either scifi or fantasy. However, it just doesn't fit in.

[@And-ur6ol]

I think Tolkien did to major things for fantasy. 1) He set a standard for world building, that was just several levels above everyone else. Like introducing a katana to an bronze age civilization. 2) But perhaps more importantly, Tolkien took fantasy out of the childrens room, and into the living room. With LOTR he showed us through the philosophical themes, characters and story, that fantasy don't have to be religaded to children literature, but is on pair with any adult literature. He made fantasy serius, and without him, fantasy might have reached that point anyway, but it would have taken a lot longer, and maybe would even be in process today, which it arguably is even with LOTR, given how many still look down upon the genre.

[@malcomalexander9437]

Conan the Barbarian was definitely not aimed at kids, all Tolkien did was make fantasy more presentable. Also Poul Anderson wrote a fantasy novel called The Broken Sword, it came out alongside Lord of the Rings. Poul Anderson's work was more amoral and darker.

[@malcomalexander9437]

Also his women were better written.

[@And-ur6ol]

@@malcomalexander9437 fair points, but making something more presentable is very important if your goal is to change the wider perspective, and while Tolkien likely didn't have this in mind, it is what he did. So while Tolkien was not the first to write adult fantasy, my argument rest on him being the one, that made it adult to the general public/audience.

[@007scraps]

A few points - sci fi vs fantasy being marketing. I think this is true because people get looked down when they say they read fantasy compared to sci fi. Lovecraft: him being racist etc was just the zeitgeist of the times. The fact that people are judging others from the past without the context of the society they lived in just reflects how stupid the internet has become.

[@nathansteinfromarkham7109]

Yep

[@SonofSethoitae]

Lovecraft was considered excessively racist even in his own time. His friends frequently wrote him letters telling him to cool it with the racism. And they weren't exactly progressives when it came to race either.

[@AMAR9933]

Oh my god YES to ancient greek fantasy!!!

[@danabowman1975]

ATLA IS MY ALL TIME FAVOURITE!!! 😍 And yes, so underrated!!! So many good messages! And I know it's not a book, but I LOVED Stargate because of the ancient Egypt (and others like Greek, and mongols etc mythology used!)

[@NBTKDA]

Daniel: "...and one person helms--" Me: "HELMS DEEP FUCK YEAH"

[@coldermusic2729]

The Percy Jackson world has both Ancient Greece and Egyptian mythology inside them, and I would say goes into the law pretty well. 5:00 if you want more of these go check it out, it also goes into Norse gods, Roman gods and Chinese gods (and mentions other multi god religions inside it). This is one of the reasons why I want a Percy Jackson tv series, the movies really didn’t do the serious justice and it deserves much more.

[@allanpurslow7106]

Default Medieval European Setting: Barry Hughart's Chronicles of Master Li and Number 10 Ox series is based on medieval China and form a different fantasy landscape. The three titles can be read as stand alone books and I highly recommend these books. Sadly, the author died last year so there will be no more stories.

[@kevinobrien2630]

The world in which my fantasy novel takes place is the Dreamlands, and it is big enogh to include a large number and variety of non-European, non-medieval cultures. I have yet to fully explored the other cultures in novels or stories, but the potential is there, so my work is not limited to medieval Europe or Tolkeinesque civilizations. Since the protagonists of my fantasy novel share a romentic relationship, their are several scenes in which they engage in intimate activities with each other.There is however a scene where a side character, who is a female horndog engages in fill-on sex with another woman

[@andrewwright64]

Agree 1000% with more Ancient Greece! I can’t wait to write some stories set there after my current trilogy in progress.

[@MsWillowbayOrelse]

Iron Druid Series has a lot of the gods even some of the more obscure ones like Perun the Thunder God from Slavic mythology.

[@tungstentrain1956]

honestly loved it especially the part about being able to respect an author for their ideology cool guy you are

[@Crina-LudmilaCristeaAuthor]

Highly agree with the last answer! So many readers complain about sex/love scenes, but don't have the same rage for the violence depicted in books. That was the main reason why I started my first novel the way I did.😉

[@TheBookishMom]

I would love to see a more ancient Greek or even Egyptian fantasy book series.

[@Yesica1993]

I would love that too!

[@TheBookishMom]

@@Yesica1993 I would totally buy in! Not that I don't love medieval fantasy, but it gets boring seeing the same thing all of the time. Norse is fun too, and African inspired books are also really intriguing to me. I just want more different worlds and ideas.

[@gokbay3057]

6:35 holy sh*t I am in the video.

[@jimluebke3869]

Science Fiction works out the logical consequences of an actual or potential new invention or scientific breakthrough, in a future world. Fantasy explores themes through references to an older world that never was, with aspects that perhaps never could be.

[@mushroomc0re]

Re: Genre. In the words of Ian Danskin, sci fi is what we point at when we say sci fi. Genre isn't something that can easily be defined

[@liviejb]

If you want to read a fantasy series that’s set in a Mediterranean-type world, I’d recommend The Queen’s Thief by Meghan Whalen Turner if you haven’t read it already. It has great reviews and I’ve loved it so far (I’m only two books in at the moment tho). The landscape is basically Mediterranean AND there are a set of gods that we slowly get introduced to via folk tales who are reminiscent to Greek gods but are still they’re own entity.

[@misswriter21]

That last question regarding sex in fantasy and sci-fi... totally agree! A complaint I have with fantasy and sci-fi (and some subgenres) is the lack of tender moments or even just sexy moments. Humans enjoy sex and to pretend that characters don't or to fade to black when such scenes can actually add to character development can be a disservice to the story and a disservice to the readers. I'm currently writing a story that blends subgenres and showing intimacy between my characters has been pivotal to understand their relationship, the powers they share or benefit from and I think the story would be lacking if those scenes weren't included. Sci-fi and fantasy isn't just about magic systems, big battles and violence. It can be about relationships too, and how those relationships influence the characters when they are thrust into battles or discovering magic systems.

[@Jrdn357]

LOVED THIS VID!!! PLZ DO MORE!!!!!

[@J0shuaGam3r]

Really enjoyed this one Daniel. Stay awesome buddy.

[@muricalynnwilson5866]

I don't have any intelligent questions for the next episode, but I do have a joke that I found recently that I think you will like. Her: my fantasy is eating whipped cream off each other, what's yours? JRR Tolkien: "takes deep breath in"

[@KArchine]

Thank you for answering my question Daniel. I actually have a similar belief but you wanted a spicy question 😁.

[@danlafferty1222]

Best definition I’ve ever heard for sci Gibbs fantasy: Sci fi is what could some day happen. But fantasy is what could never happen. (Sadly.)

[@derpimusmaximus8815]

"Fantasy without Tolkien" just makes me think of the webcomic DM of the Rings.

[@amp7980]

Comment on the last question. For most cases i agree with that. But there is a lot that can be portrayed if done well. If anyone has seen the movie Shame, there is a scene that shows a long uncut intimate scene that is then contrasted with another scene that speaks volumes about the mans psychological problems.

[@mushroomc0re]

Tbh w/o Tolkien it's likely that only the racial coding of a lot of fantasy races would be different. I don't think anything would be radically different tbh

[@darmokandjalad7786]

Looking forward to more Avatar content, would love to see you collaborate with Hello Future Me again as well!

[@HMK-nh4ft]

4:37 ANCIENT GREEK!!!! YES

[@JoshuaLTRyan]

I agree with you re: Lovecraft. I wonder though, if we could talk to him today, would we be able to sway those view away from the horrific to something better? No idea, just thinking about it.

[@nathansteinfromarkham7109]

maybe. He was starting to change his opinion before he died...then again that's assuming you actually try to reason with him instead of shaming the man.

[@dodobyrde4645]

If Tolkien wasn't there, Wheel of Time would be different.

[@feanaro2712]

Now I'm really curious who the big name authors are who could have risen up in Tolkein's absence, and how their influences might have differed.

[@jameswitts3793]

If anyone is interested in Greek fantasy, read David Gemmell’s Lion of Macedon & Dark Prince Also his trilogy on Troy

[@elrilmoonweaver4723]

I'm the sort of person who'll always leave past iterations of things I've created (written, painted, drew, crafted whatnot) in order to draw inspiration from it later on. I dread deleting things that's why, when I'm generally not pleased with a drawing, or a draft of a story I just scrap it and start over.

[@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump]

I'm not going to defend or downplay Lovecraft's reprehensible views, but I feel like "bastard" and "monster" are a little strong. He was a deeply flawed man, but he was also a broken man. Pity, I think, is more appropriate than hatred.

[@SonofSethoitae]

Tone policing is pretty gauche

[@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump]

@@SonofSethoitae Two years mate.

[@SonofSethoitae]

@@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump Still gauche, two years later

[@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump]

@@SonofSethoitae True is true.

[@cliffwoodbury5319]

I like creators who create their own worlds but i would love to see something i know would never happen. All the worlds film makers come together and make a cinematic universes for all the pantheons that after some time start crossing over!!!

[@GanchoGod]

YES please do an ATLA video, the show is a masterpiece and one of the best stories ever told imo

[@bartlodder5111]

Great new show!

[@Sameranth]

Really enjoyed this. Looking forward to more Hmmmm...

[@MercinLikeABoss]

I know its YA but if you are a huge ancient Greece and Egyptian fan have you ever read Percy Jackson and the Olympians/Heroes of Olympus/Trials of Apollo or the Kane Chronicles by Rick Riordan. He also has a Norse Mythology series called Magnus Chase Series.